Log for #openttd on 1st February 2012:
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00:14:45  <andythenorth> hmm
00:15:00  <andythenorth> the solution I have for global constants is just *not* better than the c pre-processor way
00:15:08  <andythenorth> ${global_constants.truck_type_nums.fifth_wheel_truck}
00:15:19  <andythenorth> instead of NUM_TRUCK_TYPE_FIFTH_WHEEL
00:15:35  <andythenorth> although it is at least mostly explicit where it's getting the value from
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00:35:23  <andythenorth> good night
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00:45:40  <cypher> This is what I call a fuckload of iron ore.
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05:08:33  <xiong> For "Show time in minutes rather than days" is this purely visual or is there an effect on play? Is this a simple substitution of 1 minute for 1 day?
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05:55:09  <Guest1184> hey
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05:56:11  <Guest1184> hola
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08:04:45  <Eddi|zuHause> austrian steam engines are a huge mess...
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08:06:43  * Rhamphoryncus swears at tropic refurbishment for finally giving him the highest speed box car.. but splitting it into 3 types, one of which being slower than the others and thus dictating the speed of his entire line
08:08:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Clearly such things require a very different style of play, one I have not discovered yet
08:09:19  <Elukka> i think it requires accepting that sometimes trains have to stop at signals :P
08:09:40  <Elukka> it would be nice if trains knew to slow down when needed so they wouldn't have to come to a complete stop
08:09:58  <Rhamphoryncus> I have a high volume trunk line.  They *need* to be in harmony to move effectively
08:12:09  <Rhamphoryncus> I was thinking that.  Check the speed of the train in the block ahead (actual speed, not max speed), distance to our signal, etc, and slow down a bit
08:13:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Path signals need some concept of caravaning too, so they'll use that and stick to their line normally, but switch to the other lane when it's nice and open
08:13:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Or a way to put speed rules on lanes :P
08:16:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Actually, multiple rail types could do that.  Expensive high-speed rail could get a mild penalty for slow-speed vehicles
08:21:30  <Elukka> well, they already know to pick an empty line between two equal choices (except that one has a train somewhere down the line)
08:21:49  <Elukka> there was the speed signs patch a long time ago... i think it died
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08:26:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Picking an empty line with path signals doesn't work.  They switch lines *far* too often.  I do have a priority merge by abusing presignals, but I need to redesign it to move them faster
08:35:16  <planetmaker> don't build line switches. Just build your hubs that each lane can go each other on branches
08:38:21  <Rhamphoryncus> So transfer at stations?  Or don't transfer, just pass through?
08:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think we need to split the early austrian railway into several, just "kkStB" doesn't cut it
08:38:50  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm thinking StEG, KFNB and SB for starters
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08:46:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Interesting idea.. rather than a rolling merge do a stopping merge.  I could also just have a 6-wide waiting area.  The point is to suck up the backlog in an efficient way, rather than letting it propagate back through the line
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08:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: i think the openttdcoop people called that a "tight packer"
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09:10:57  <dihedral> greetings
09:17:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Heh.  Just did a manual autorefit
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09:25:34  <Elukka> i am so happy cargodist binaries are again available
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10:02:34  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, sure it's needed? And... what are those new abbreviations?
10:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the problem is that the development in austria is kinda reverse to the development in germany. the first railways were state-owned and later privatize
10:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so around 1900 you get lots of similar engine types
10:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the abbreviations are: SB: SÃŒdbahn, StEG: Staats-Eisenbahn Gesellschaft and KFNB: Kaiser Ferdinand Nordbahn (i think)
10:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> where it's my impression that those are the three biggest
10:07:20  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly also the ÖNWB (österreichische Nordwestbahn)
10:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> where the north and northwest of austria actually means modern czechia :)
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10:32:01  <planetmaker> I see. Well. I'm not familiar with the evolution of railways in that area really. If the diversity or amount of engines justifies a split - why not. On the other hand one could make a unified core (as now) and just allow three different expansion settings for that
10:32:53  <Rhamphoryncus> I found a use for break vans!
10:33:28  <Rhamphoryncus> When a UFO lands nearby.. you buy one, 'cuz they're free, and leave it in the depot.  This avoids having to fix orders that involve said depot.
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10:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't really matter whether it's free. as long as it's stopped, you don't pay anything and get the full price back (afaik)
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10:42:00  <Rhamphoryncus> It doesn't depreciate when stopped?
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11:14:05  <Elukka>
11:14:07  <Elukka> trainsssss
11:14:26  <kais58>
11:15:20  <Elukka> the painting in the background looks a tad out of place...
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11:23:46  <Ammler> heffer: how does fedora solve the license issue with opensfx?
11:24:56  <Ammler> I got requests to submit openttd to the standard repos
11:25:08  <Ammler> but there opensfx wouldn't be allowed
11:25:27  <Ammler> (suse)
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12:05:43  <planetmaker> Ammler, providing OpenSFX is not necessary really... important is really only OpenGFX as base graphics to make the game start at all
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12:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> dear cat. you are now standing right in front of my screen. would you please bother to move away from there?
12:35:10  <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause: Why should it? ;)
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14:33:31  <Rhamphoryncus> "I'll just replace these old oilwell trams with some trains.  Sure, they'll cost a lot more, but they'll amuse me, and I'm sure they'll so outstrip demand that I can do amusing but inefficient layout!"
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14:34:03  <Rhamphoryncus> said wells have been operating for quite some time and are at 2.4 million litres/month x_x
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15:12:31  * andythenorth found a very sane way to do globals in python templating
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15:19:34  <tensai_cirno> morning
15:19:37  <tensai_cirno> oh, evening
15:19:45  <tensai_cirno> is there developer channel?
15:20:12  <tensai_cirno> I'm playing around with alpha-stage port of OpenTTD for Blackberry PlayBook tablet
15:25:19  <Rubidium> there's no specific openttd port/patch developer channel; most of that just happens in here
15:26:31  <tensai_cirno> Rubidium, okay. Looks like I figured out my little hurdle.
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15:37:41  <TheBrick> hello there
15:38:38  <Rubidium> hi
15:38:48  <TheBrick> I've got about 20 hours to spend contributing to this project. got anything to do for me?
15:38:59  <TheBrick> I've got basic programming skills
15:39:03  <Belugas> hello
15:39:18  <TheBrick> hey
15:39:45  <TheBrick> or is there a todo list somewhere that I can take a look at?
15:40:09  <Rubidium> the "to do" items are all pretty complex
15:40:17  <Rubidium> though... do you have Mac OS X?
15:40:26  <TheBrick> nope windows, sorry
15:40:42  <TheBrick> I could fetch a virtual machine maybe
15:41:29  <TheBrick> if there's brainless grinding work to be done, I'd be happy to do it
15:42:23  <Rubidium> the only brainless stuff to do is fixing some of all the warnings/errors Doxygen generates
15:42:31  <Rubidium> i.e. document/fix documentation
15:43:22  <TheBrick> could I spend 20 hours on that and make significant headway?
15:44:38  <Rubidium> I guess you could write a significant amount of documentation, though start with the simple stuff unless you want to figure out how the complex functions really work
15:45:17  <Rubidium> the advantage is that you can usually stop somewhere midway with documentation and it's not unfinished, just some stuff isn't documented yet
15:45:49  <Rubidium> whereas trying to write some feature or fix a bug within 20 hours might be take too much to get it to completion within that time
15:45:51  <TheBrick> sounds like a job. is it separate documentation, or do I have to put comments into the code?
15:46:18  <TheBrick> fixing bugs is something I could likely do
15:46:51  <TheBrick> I'm just not very familiar with C++'s specific features and depths of hell
15:50:07  <TinoDidriksen> What is the need for OS X stuff?
15:50:39  <andythenorth> OS X has lots of open bugs
15:50:58  <andythenorth> enough that dropping OS X support has been considered
15:52:14  <TinoDidriksen> Nobody has OS X to work on it?
15:52:31  <andythenorth>
15:53:53  <andythenorth> meanwhile, for those who claim they can code but not draw:
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15:56:26  <andythenorth> 'some people' have OS X
15:56:37  <andythenorth> some of those people don't fix bugs
15:56:46  <glx> TinoDidriksen: the main problem is you have to redo everything when a new OSX version is out
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15:59:38  <TinoDidriksen> Why? There's no project files for Mac?
16:01:38  <glx> big parts of API get deprecated when a new version is out
16:01:48  <TinoDidriksen> Oh OS X version..
16:01:51  <TinoDidriksen> Right
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16:06:07  <tensai_cirno>
16:06:10  <tensai_cirno> it works :D
16:07:02  <planetmaker> TinoDidriksen, for OSX you should (also) be familiar with Objective C(++) and the specific OSX APIs
16:07:17  <TinoDidriksen> ...or just use Qt
16:08:10  <planetmaker> lol?
16:08:25  <planetmaker> how's that a solution?
16:08:44  <planetmaker> one could at the same time - and simpler - demand to use SDL
16:08:58  <planetmaker> and spend time in making that work nicer on OSX
16:09:16  <planetmaker> but all that won't help really. Or at least not quickly
16:09:30  <planetmaker> one of the main issues is that OSX is quite hard to virtualize
16:09:39  <planetmaker> thus you cannot well create test environments.
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16:09:57  <planetmaker> And that the API deprecates quickly
16:10:20  <planetmaker> thus you're forced to re-write stuff which works fine on version X, but ceases to compile on version X+2
16:10:23  <TinoDidriksen> Qt's QGraphicsView could do the graphics OpenGL accelerated, and Qt on OS X has a very nifty deploy script that bundles all required libs into a .dmg. No need to fiddle with platform specific APIs.
16:10:54  <planetmaker> good. Then fiddling with apple apis is replaced by fiddling with qt apis
16:11:18  <planetmaker> what is gained then?
16:11:24  <planetmaker> Given that qt is used nowhere?
16:12:00  <planetmaker> and usually given that native APIs tend to be faster?
16:12:08  <tensai_cirno> Which OS-level API's are used? Threading, files, network stack.
16:12:22  <tensai_cirno> SDL used for graphics, sound and input
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16:12:29  <planetmaker> SDL is not used on osx
16:12:34  <tensai_cirno> e
16:12:42  <tensai_cirno> why?
16:13:22  <glx> because it often fails maybe
16:13:26  <planetmaker> it's osx support is worse than the native api
16:13:28  <__ln__> because it has various bugs of its own.
16:13:28  <TheBrick> this seems like something I could do. is this request still applicable?
16:13:47  <planetmaker> and the osx SDL version is kinda buggy
16:14:21  <TinoDidriksen> Well, making a Qt project would mean one project that would work on WinXP+, Linux, OS X. I might take a stab at that in 2-3 months time...going to invest in a real Mac instead of my current VirtualBox one that I use for building my Qt apps.
16:14:51  <glx> sdl is not used for windows port either
16:15:28  <planetmaker> TinoDidriksen, adding a Qt backend certainly is a project on its own. Maybe it's worth it. But maybe also not
16:15:38  <planetmaker> I'm not sure how well it really supports the platform specifics
16:16:45  <tensai_cirno> Could anyone point me, where code for save/load dialogs located? Application crashes, when I'm trying to leave sandbox.
16:16:47  <TinoDidriksen> So far, all the Qt stuff I've done as "just worked" on all platforms.
16:17:17  <tensai_cirno> TinoDidriksen, there are lots of platforms, where Qt doesn't work
16:17:20  <glx> tensai_cirno: should be in a _gui.cpp file
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16:17:29  <tensai_cirno> including toasters powered by NetBSD
16:20:44  <planetmaker> tensai_cirno, what is used on OSX is ApplicationServices, CoreServices, Cocoa (for video, input and music), QuickDraw (optional video)
16:20:57  <tensai_cirno> planetmaker, ouch
16:21:07  <tensai_cirno> i guess it's pretty hard to maintain
16:21:16  <planetmaker> thus the usual frameworks which *should* be used on OSX
16:21:20  <planetmaker> but ... they change :S
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16:22:06  <planetmaker> and worse, there's quite some reports which I can't reproduce as they seem to depend on certain hardware arrangements
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16:24:39  <glx> like blitters planetmaker ?
16:24:55  <planetmaker> that's tricky terrain, yes
16:25:22  <planetmaker> and it's not like I'm going to buy several macs just for test purposes ;-)
16:29:19  <planetmaker> <-- and it needs mostly adoption for osx 10.7 (Lion)
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16:30:36  <spongie> Hi guys. Is there an image or info on the optimal 2 track balancer. I have two tracks in the same direction, so far all the "sollutions" online present different problem.
16:31:22  <planetmaker> define "optimal"
16:31:48  <spongie> when I use pre signals i have the problem that a train might start moving towards the switch and then get blocked by a speedy train on the other track
16:31:50  <planetmaker> I dare say there is no 'optimal' as the "best" solution depends on the circumstances and the definition of "best"
16:32:17  <spongie> when I use path signals they mysteriously halt the trains sometimes even though a clear path is obviously available.
16:32:34  <spongie> almost as if it takes time to calculate the reservation
16:32:44  <planetmaker> <--- did you look through that wiki or the related blog?
16:32:50  <spongie> indeed.
16:34:06  <spongie> both the coop site and the regular openttd wiki examples of this result in this behavior since both are using either pre signals or path signals
16:36:14  <spongie> planetmaker: what would you consider the best solution?
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16:39:27  <TheBrick> sorry to bother you people, but I would like an opinion from a developer about this issue: it sounds like something I could do, unless it's dangerous code to work on, or if it's not applicable anymore
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16:40:25  <TheBrick> I'm mostly interested in the sorting issues
16:43:23  <TheBrick> or if there's a place in the forums for these kind of topics, I'd be happily referred to that
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16:52:46  <Polsie> I have a question
16:53:08  <Polsie> i've downloaded the patch for big maps...
16:53:24  <__ln__> that's not a question, that's a statement.
16:53:25  <Polsie> but were must i place that patch? or how do I run that one?
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16:55:21  <polsie> so have anyone a solution?
16:56:09  <polsie> because i can't solve it
16:56:26  <Rubidium> polsie: see
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16:59:14  <polsie> I didn't understand it al...
17:01:14  <Elukka> it's probably the fourth post you should look at
17:01:26  <Elukka> though i remember trying that one time and it didn't work for whatever reason...
17:06:06  <planetmaker> spongie, as said: there's no general answer. It really depends on the exact circumstances. I'd build a good system with prios where side lines merge and maybe a shift-mainline system
17:07:41  <planetmaker> TheBrick, it's a bit difficult. Not all info are available prior to join. But a solution making use of the existing info should not re-invent the wheel but use the existing sorting framework
17:08:53  <TheBrick> alright. I'm familiar with sorting algorithms, so it sounds like a good idea to try?
17:10:41  <planetmaker> TheBrick, there are other parts which might be nice to fix. Like if you use the OpenGFX+ BigGUI NewGRF you'll notice that there are several places where the sprite size is not properly taken care of in the GUI
17:11:08  <planetmaker> like the x close button on the top left of some windows
17:11:16  <planetmaker> or the <- or -> arrows in some places
17:13:06  <TheBrick> alright, is there a buglist entry for this?
17:14:00  <planetmaker> not sure
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17:17:27  <TheBrick> if there is, I cannot find it. could you do me a favor and open one for this issue? That makes it clear cut for me and a nice place for discussion
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17:19:01  <planetmaker> how does it make it clearer? :-)
17:19:18  <planetmaker> and yes, one can also just open reports with patches attached
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17:22:19  <spongie> planetmaker: its the shift mainline thingy im wondering about
17:23:17  <planetmaker> spongie, it will make sure that the lines are used absolutely unbalanced :-)
17:24:42  <spongie> ok. basically, I have an extra track in the same direction as the mainline and im looking to take some load of the first track
17:25:10  <spongie> my mainlines are usually LLRR
17:25:49  <spongie> and although it sorts of balances with either the pbs or pre signal solutions, theres still a fair amount of erronous shifting and blocking
17:26:32  <TheBrick> I'll see what I can do, planetmaker, but I'm unfamiliar with everything here (project, game, codebase, forums, etc) so I'm looking for directions on how to get started with all this. I have to reference my work here, so an existing bug that I work on sounds like the best approach
17:30:41  <spongie> ok
17:30:44  <spongie> oops
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17:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i solved the mac port issues:
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17:48:05  <planetmaker> TheBrick, alternatively you could of course try to improve an AI or write a nice goal script for OpenTTD
17:48:21  <planetmaker> Or write for example a bot logging the commands via the admin port
17:48:38  <andythenorth> isn't this the solution to OS X issues?
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17:48:45  <planetmaker> those might be projects which are possibly easier contained and don't require you to dig that deeply into OpenTTD's vast source code base
17:49:50  <planetmaker> AIs and goal scripts are written in squirrel, OpenTTD provides a more or less extensive API. And there are libraries available
17:50:17  <planetmaker> For such logging script you might use whatever you like. There exist libraries to access the admin port in both python and java
17:50:31  <dihedral> here
17:50:31  <planetmaker> To my knowledge at least. Other non-published stuff might exist
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17:53:06  <TheBrick> thanks for the info, planetmaker. are you familiar with an AI that could use some work? AI is one of my favorite subjects, and I know a lot of the basics (probability, all kinds of search algorithms, machine learning)
17:54:48  <planetmaker> Well... Most AI luckily are GPL-licensed, so one can start with any. "Need" work is relative... I'd suggest to talk to Zuu. He's quite much into writing AI and scripts and libraries for them
17:55:04  <planetmaker> Hi might also give you more detailed ideas and might welcome contributions to one of his AIs
17:55:50  <planetmaker> You find a number of AI projects here:
17:56:23  <planetmaker> Hm, though Zuu's might not yet be there :-)
17:56:57  <TheBrick> is he online on IRC here somewhere?
17:57:03  <TheBrick> I don't see his name
17:57:17  <planetmaker> then he's currently not online
17:57:24  <TheBrick> is he online often?
17:57:40  <planetmaker> relatively regularily, yes
17:57:45  <planetmaker> European evening hours
17:57:54  <TheBrick> alright good. I hope to talk to him tonight
17:58:21  <planetmaker> if / when you're registered to, you could write him a message there
17:58:33  <TheBrick> good idea
17:59:09  <planetmaker> <-- his library for AIs
17:59:28  <planetmaker> which also gives you the names of his AIs
17:59:32  <planetmaker> in the description
17:59:47  <planetmaker> And as it's a scripting language... downloading the AI will give you their source, too
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18:03:13  <TheBrick> I can't download the SuperLib repository for some reason
18:03:28  <TheBrick> Error: OPTIONS of '" target="_blank">': 200 Script output follows (
18:03:33  <TheBrick> sigh I'm such a noob at this
18:03:58  <TheBrick> trying to checkout the svn base
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18:09:03  <Anteu> Free $ from poker!
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18:15:39  <TheBrick> planetmaker: looks like someone is working on the BigGUI sprite issues as we speak
18:15:56  <TheBrick> wait
18:15:59  <TheBrick> that's you, haha
18:16:21  <planetmaker> :-P
18:17:26  <TheBrick> I'll be back after dinner and see if I can fix these things
18:17:32  <TheBrick> bye for now, and thanks.
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18:18:03  <planetmaker> you're welcome
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19:34:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23874 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt lithuanian.txt):
19:34:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:34:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by Snail_
19:34:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 11 changes by Stabilitronas
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19:43:50  <frosch123> he, citydomination is not even by zuu :o
19:44:09  <frosch123> why did i search for zuu yesterday? :p
19:47:10  <Alberth> the one and only king of the squirrel scripts? ;)
19:47:54  <frosch123> yeah, i just assumed that any script must be by him :)
19:48:11  <frosch123> then i was confused that someone else replied to my bug report :p
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19:58:31  <Alberth> hi andy
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20:00:59  <tensai_cirno> by the way
20:01:08  <tensai_cirno> right mouse button used only for scrolling map?
20:01:10  <Chris_Booth> Hi!
20:01:50  <tensai_cirno> i want to implement scrolling with double-finger gesture
20:02:05  <frosch123> rmb can also be used to show tooltips
20:02:25  <frosch123> the depotview also has a speical ctrl+right click tooltip
20:02:33  <frosch123> minimap is also scrolled using rmb
20:02:33  <tensai_cirno> tooltips for what?
20:02:54  <frosch123> those thingies which pop up after some seconds
20:03:09  <frosch123> instead of the delay than can also be shown via rmb
20:03:18  <frosch123> there is an advancted setting for that
20:03:30  <frosch123> tooltips via rmb is the traditional ttd method
20:03:35  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:03:36  <frosch123> delay is more modern
20:04:04  <andythenorth> evening
20:04:13  <frosch123> but i think in the train depot the rmb tooltip always works, since it is not suitable to do that kind of tooltip via an hoover delay
20:04:35  <tensai_cirno> usual tooltips could be sacrificed.
20:04:46  <tensai_cirno> rmb+click on trains in train depot?
20:05:29  <tensai_cirno> yep, I see
20:05:44  <tensai_cirno> first time noticed them
20:06:12  <tensai_cirno> Well, playbook can detect up to 4 fingers, I think I'll work around that somehow :)
20:06:38  <frosch123> even ctrl+rmb+click
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20:51:01  <V453000> hi, when I need to load a newGRF on a dedicated server, how do I download the content which is missing for that savegame?
20:51:12  <V453000> so that the server loads it correctly
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20:51:59  <planetmaker> V453000, via rcon
20:52:08  <Chris_Booth> V453000: you have to make sure that the newgrf is on the server
20:52:10  <planetmaker> but on our servers use !content and it should do the rest for you
20:52:26  <V453000> yeah but it isnt the current content
20:52:32  <V453000> there is an older version of a bananas newgrf
20:55:43  <planetmaker> which NewGRF (incl. md5sum) do you miss?
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20:59:34  <V453000> I am already sending those grfs to them
20:59:49  <V453000> but for exaple basecosts 3.2 is in the save, but on bananas is 3.2.1 as latest
21:02:05  * andythenorth starts a not-quite-a-guide
21:02:05  <andythenorth>
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21:12:11  <V453000> [2012-02-01 21:18:06] dbg: [net] Loading game failed, so a new (random) game will be started! [2012-02-01 21:18:07] dbg: [net] Generating map, please wait... this could be caused only by incorrect version right?
21:12:19  <V453000> I am sure I have the version correctly
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21:18:47  <Chris_Booth> might be you are loading an unsafe grf config
21:18:51  <Chris_Booth> or have grf errors
21:21:29  <Terkhen> hello
21:21:55  <andythenorth> hola Terkhen
21:21:58  <andythenorth> que tal?
21:23:33  <Terkhen> fine, I just finished moving to a new room :)
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21:34:59  <__ln__> i'm not sure it's an entirely positive thing that there are only three HDD manufacturers left in the world...
21:35:54  <TheBrick> partly positive is a greater demand for SSD => cheaper SSDs
21:40:15  <valhallasw> TheBrick: in general higher demand leads to more expensive products
21:40:26  <valhallasw> however, a high demand will also stimulate competition
21:40:50  <TheBrick> I mean there is a high demand for low priced SSDs
21:41:01  <TheBrick> so yes, competition for low prices
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22:05:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is it fair to say your generator is a pure code generator?
22:05:32  <andythenorth> rather than some horrible frankenstein of code generator + substitution-templating
22:05:53  <andythenorth> I'm overlooking the CPP, just referring to the python
22:08:16  <andythenorth> I want to draw a line somewhere that says "either choose simple templating, or learn how compilers work, but don't mix them, it's hell"
22:09:55  <andythenorth> (in a templating guide)
22:10:17  <frosch123> oh, "grf" is short for "graf dracula"?
22:20:09  <andythenorth> did I make any mistakes yet?
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22:20:26  <andythenorth> otherwise I move onto the more interesting bit.  that's all pre-amble
22:20:43  * andythenorth fears lack of sleep = tpyos
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22:47:57  <Terkhen> good night
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22:58:39  <cypher> I just thought of a way to compute matrix determinant with On^64 complexity. May I get my Nobel prize please?
22:59:38  <andythenorth> does it compile nml faster?
22:59:49  <__ln__> since when is ordo notation used without parentheses?
22:59:54  * andythenorth wonders
23:00:28  <andythenorth> is there any harm in duplicating about 95% of the code in a newgrf several times?
23:00:39  <andythenorth> it might be a brute force way to do things like FIRS economies
23:00:54  <cypher> __ln__ : since I'm inventing things.
23:01:10  <cypher> andythenorth : Probably not.
23:01:46  *** pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
23:01:47  <andythenorth> it's probably a huge waste of file size anyway
23:02:10  <andythenorth> and nmlc would barf on duplicate identifiers, so they'd have to be made unique
23:02:53  *** Pulec [] has quit []
23:03:12  <cypher> I still thing it's a good idea. Think about it. For 4x4 matrix it's 340282366920938463463374607431768211456 operations, so for 2048*2048 TTD map, it's probably somewhat more.
23:03:53  <cypher> *think
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23:05:33  <TheBrick> I'd say that's an impressive feat
23:05:44  <TheBrick> coming up with such an order of complexity
23:05:53  <TheBrick> are you sure it would actually work?
23:06:45  <frosch123> hmm, i think i only learned to compute them with n!, but wiki says there are n^3 algorithms
23:07:13  <cypher> TheBrick : I'm almost positive.
23:07:23  <TheBrick> do a test run :P
23:08:46  <cypher> I only thought of it while studying for linear algebra exam, I didn't actually write it. See, I have a cheap HP laptop and no fire alarm whatsoever...
23:08:48  <frosch123> oh, apparently i never learned how to compute a determinant effectively... it's so obvious when i read it...
23:09:45  <cypher> frosch123 : how uneffectively did you do it? Was it anywhere near say... n^5?
23:09:58  <cypher> I think i'm gonna turn that into a competition.
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23:10:28  <frosch123> no idea how to do it in n^5. i can only do it in n! or n^3
23:10:41  <frosch123> if you limit the band width, it becomes linear though
23:10:53  <TheBrick> just do bogosort with 128 bit numbers
23:11:18  <cypher> Anyways, I'll rather plug myself off.
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23:11:53  <Rubidium> isn't O(n!) > O(n^c)
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23:12:29  <planetmaker> it is
23:12:38  <frosch123> O(n!) > O(c^n) > O(n^c)
23:12:55  <frosch123> except for certain small values of c :)
23:13:21  <Rubidium> you mean c <= 1?
23:13:28  <frosch123> yip :p
23:15:31  <TheBrick> bogosort is O(infinite), isn't it? so I'd win
23:16:11  <frosch123> ottd 1.2-beta3 uses bogosort :)
23:16:11  <Rubidium> just do heapsort with choochoo comparator
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