Log for #openttd on 2nd March 2012:
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00:01:37  <Rhamphoryncus> Well, I am seeing variation in that bit, it just doesn't feel balanced ;)
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00:57:04  <Rhamphoryncus> Heh, despite maligning bidirectional tracks I've now build a bidirectional tunnel :D
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01:12:58  <DDR> Oh, sweet irony. :P
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02:01:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: at least for industrytiles, the info is printed out to the console if you have a debug build and use the [?]-tool
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02:10:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: cool, I'll remember that in the future
02:10:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Although this isn't a debug build
02:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well technically that info is printed for all tiles, so industrytiles is just a special case :)
02:11:59  <Rhamphoryncus> :)
02:13:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Woo, 800%!
02:13:36  <Rhamphoryncus> Waiting 36 years is fucking boring :P
02:14:33  <Rhamphoryncus> And the kicker.. this is without production decreases or closures.  I need to turn them on and do a new test
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05:30:38  <andythenorth> hmm
05:30:59  * andythenorth ponders "from foo import *"
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06:08:07  <andythenorth> nap time
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07:43:31  <andythenorth> bah
07:43:36  <andythenorth> I blame Eddi|zuHause
07:43:46  <andythenorth> extra angles look good
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08:33:13  * Rhamphoryncus waves to andythenorth
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08:36:11  <Rhamphoryncus> huh
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09:19:01  <planetmaker> moin
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09:21:42  <andythenorth> hola
09:22:58  <__ln__> 'qapla
09:27:31  <planetmaker> that's something new, I think... two people replying "sorry, I'm happy with your sprites, but will only be interested, if GPL"
09:28:07  <planetmaker>
09:40:04  <dihedral> o/
09:44:09  <andythenorth> :)
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09:46:14  <peter1138> silly windows
09:46:20  <peter1138> i'm seeing event log entries for "The system time was changed."
09:46:32  <peter1138> where the previous and new time are the same
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09:54:28  <Rubidium> I reckon the do settime(); oldtime = gettime(); newtime = gettime(); ;)
09:57:13  <peter1138> i suspect it was changed by a sub-second amount
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10:50:48  <dihedral> Th0mash0f
10:50:54  <dihedral> \o/
10:51:07  <dihedral> who else needs my active directory password
10:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> what? i only see *****
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11:24:04  <blathijs> dihedral: Perhaps you could also paste your Paypal password? ;-)
11:51:30  <MNIM> while you're at it, your bank account and PIN?
11:53:22  <xiong> If anyone's interested, I stumbled on the full solution to the problem with trains making station stops refusing to reverse through another platform, with or without depoting during the reverse.
11:53:24  * SpComb wonders who Thomas Hof is
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11:55:26  <xiong> The stopping trains were abusing the tracks intended for through traffic, avoiding the pf penalty for passing through a platform -- which turns out to be quite high since it is per-tile -- even to the point of exiting the station in the wrong direction, turning around somewhere else, and taking the through track.
11:58:08  <xiong> Finally I built platforms on the through tracks *but* for another, dummy station. This imposes an equal penalty so the stopping trains are willing to pass a normal platform to exit; through trains can use a station platform if they must to avoid a blocking train on the through track; and stopping trains won't stupidly stop on the through "platform", tying it up.
12:13:50  <peter1138> by-nc-nd o_O
12:15:01  <planetmaker> yeah
12:16:08  <peter1138> i guess he saw it on CC and thought it must be a good idea then...
12:16:10  <peter1138> "nd"... how silly
12:17:39  <planetmaker> nd scenarios are better ;-)
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12:24:49  <peter1138> heh
12:26:18  <Ammler> well, bananas does also suggest it...
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12:28:43  <Illegal_Alien> Woof
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12:35:09  <planetmaker> ho, Illegal_Alien
12:43:36  <Illegal_Alien> Who me?
12:43:46  * andythenorth is finding 32bpp stuff worryingly appealing
12:45:25  <Illegal_Alien> Aw need a hug?
12:46:02  <andythenorth> yeah
12:46:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yeah... now that it became easy to use and create... I like it much better :-)
12:46:08  * planetmaker hugs andythenorth
12:46:27  <andythenorth> I am worried that this is like when Lego changed from 4-wide trucks to 6-wide :P
12:46:57  <andythenorth> it loses some character...but gains lots of detail
12:47:12  <andythenorth> and looks good
12:47:21  <planetmaker> well. What character is lost?
12:47:22  <Illegal_Alien> I am more worried about the fact i want to buy Mindstorm set and put it in my awsome 8448 of lego :)
12:47:28  <planetmaker> It is *another* character or style
12:49:20  * Illegal_Alien goes back to the Locomotion Cave
12:49:39  <planetmaker> lol
12:52:41  <Illegal_Alien> Cave is a bit dark
12:52:50  <planetmaker> :-D
12:52:58  <planetmaker> torches might help
12:52:59  <Ammler> well, you forgot the light yourself
12:53:04  <planetmaker> or the headlights of trains
12:53:56  <Ammler> also if you enter a nd cave, be aware it will close behind you
12:54:17  <andythenorth> which would you rather have?
12:54:17  <andythenorth>
12:54:21  <Ammler> you will never ever again see light :-P
12:54:22  <andythenorth> or
12:54:45  <andythenorth> ^ the correct answer is both :D
12:54:52  <andythenorth> but they don't go together well :(
12:56:17  <Illegal_Alien> Hmm a closing cave, intresting idea
12:58:00  <Illegal_Alien> Ah well, Locomotion keeps his sprites then :P
12:58:17  <planetmaker> a pity actually
12:58:38  <planetmaker> those models could really get nice exposure
12:59:19  * planetmaker really wonders what makes people use ND in this "business"
12:59:55  <planetmaker> re-inventing the wheel seems to be the way to go... :S
13:01:00  <planetmaker> is fame somewhat "diluted" by making open-source?
13:02:34  <dihedral> blathijs> dihedral: Perhaps you could also paste your Paypal password? ;-) <- fish
13:03:06  <andythenorth> maybe we should stop trying to persuade about GPL
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13:03:26  <dihedral> hehe - make GPL the only option :-P
13:03:41  <Illegal_Alien> I dont know why they dont want it, but i have to respect there decisions and they want to have it to be a ND. And to bad the ND part is the part who stops this.
13:03:53  <andythenorth> dihedral: yes, I wasn't thinking of dropping the GPL
13:03:59  <andythenorth> just stop being nice about it ;)
13:04:00  <planetmaker> dihedral: when I work on it, it kinda is...
13:04:27  <andythenorth> the only reason I'm not really brutal about it is....well I don't like getting flamed back for one
13:04:44  <andythenorth> and for the other, people like Pikka and MB won't use GPL, and they have a lot of kudos
13:05:21  <planetmaker> they'd not loose any, if they made their work future-proof, though
13:05:42  <andythenorth> their choice though, and at least they're making it in an informed way :P
13:05:45  <andythenorth> unlike some
13:05:51  <planetmaker> indeed
13:06:04  <andythenorth> I am minorly irritated by discussion of 'licensing hassles'
13:06:15  <andythenorth> they are only hassles when someone *doesn't* use the fricking GPL
13:06:23  <blathijs> dihedral: also:
13:06:37  <planetmaker> well, the base for that fortunately grows in newgrf domain :-)
13:08:32  <dihedral> lol blathijs
13:08:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but you got about the same amount of kudos ;-)
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13:09:21  <dihedral> funnily enough it only happens to me when i switch desktops to one that has a fullscreen rdp session running and need to enter my password :-P
13:09:35  <dihedral> thankfully it's only the AD user that has this password :-P
13:09:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker I have to keep it in reserve - as I need to use it to say 'sorry' quite often :P
13:10:58  <planetmaker> hu, what do you mean, andythenorth?
13:11:13  <planetmaker> 'sorry' in what respect?
13:12:07  <andythenorth> when I go too far
13:12:10  <andythenorth> which happens
13:13:07  <andythenorth> cargo classes, inappropriate commits, early releases, breaking the repo, getting into arguments with SAC, giving people incorrect information etc
13:13:33  <andythenorth> also constantly demanding features and pointing out flaws in the work of others
13:13:55  * Illegal_Alien got an axe for such people
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13:14:53  <andythenorth> ho ho DanMacK
13:15:00  <DanMacK> Heya
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13:17:47  * DanMacK yawns
13:17:52  <DanMacK> it's too early... lol
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13:19:02  <Illegal_Alien> Pokemon?
13:19:04  <Pikka> 24000! \o/
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13:19:13  <Pikka> hassalotta revisions :)
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13:19:18  <andythenorth> bingo
13:19:25  <Pikka> hello Illegal_Alien and andythenorth
13:19:26  <andythenorth> DanMacK + Pikka at once
13:19:30  <andythenorth> I claim my prize
13:19:42  <DanMacK> lol
13:19:46  <Pikka> you are andythenorth and I claim my 10 FISH
13:19:57  * DanMacK claims the CHIPS
13:19:59  <Illegal_Alien> Fisj yummie
13:20:04  <Illegal_Alien> *Fisj even
13:20:06  <Illegal_Alien> Damned
13:20:09  <Illegal_Alien> Fish
13:20:26  <andythenorth> Illegal_Alien: got any rendered ship sprites that are GPL?
13:20:38  <andythenorth> and don't have tiny obfuscated detail when rasterised to 8bpp?
13:21:08  <Illegal_Alien> nope
13:21:21  <andythenorth> ho hey
13:21:36  <Pikka> tiny obfuscated detail is the best kind of detail!
13:21:50  <andythenorth> obfuscated to 0 pixels is best
13:21:51  <Pikka> all those antenna fins on my av8 aircraft, lol
13:22:40  * andythenorth creates a 'AddGreeble' plugin for pixa
13:22:57  <andythenorth> and a 'ObfuscateGreeble' plugin that runs straight after it in the pipeline :P
13:23:35  <Pikka> :)
13:25:12  <Illegal_Alien> I dont have any GPL sprites. And all the other sprites have that license i linked too. (Well its more like; i can make the Loco + Ottd sprites / .dats/grf`s but no-one else is allowed to change them.) As agreed with the model owners. And i think i no sense make with this sentence.
13:25:34  * andythenorth will actually next be coding 'generate load sprites to all needed lengths'
13:25:43  <andythenorth> steel coils, logs etc
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13:44:28  <spongie> Hi guys. Im reading the newgrf specs and found that you can set action2 to a variationalaction2, in it I see the signal bits (variable 10) where bit 9 adds a "programmed" flag. Is this currently in use?
13:45:13  <spongie> I also read on the feature request that there is a patch (i guess to simulate the TTD programmable signals), but it's not yet commited to openttd etc.
13:46:55  <spongie> basically I'm looking for a way to do two things 1) if the signal just after a station is red, then the train shouldn't leave the station, but instead remain in loading state. (theres no point in leaving the station if theres nowhere to go) and 2) show red if the train has a certain charecteristic (group, name, type or size).
13:47:40  <Pikka> none of that is implemented in openttd yet spongie, no.
13:47:41  <spongie> I'm guessing theres no way of getting such signal behavior from a newgrf anyway.
13:47:46  <spongie> ah, right.
13:48:01  <spongie> what is the status / desire to get this in?
13:48:41  <spongie> i was thinking of making a simple "conditional signal"
13:49:50  <spongie> i havent played the original TTD so I have no idea how those programmable signals work.
13:50:07  <planetmaker> original TTD has no programmable signals
13:50:16  <spongie> oh. i thought i read somewhere that it does.
13:50:18  <planetmaker> TTD has only the plain and blunt block signals
13:50:28  <spongie> in some feature comparison
13:51:24  <planetmaker> OpenTTD can do everything TTD could or can do. And way more
13:51:35  <planetmaker> you might have seen a comparison with TTD_Patch_
13:51:47  <spongie> yeah
13:51:58  <planetmaker> that's a big difference
13:52:01  <spongie> is this the current development of ?
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13:53:03  <planetmaker> that's more than two years old...
13:53:17  <planetmaker> the problem with programmable signals is the UI
13:53:27  <planetmaker> it needs a good way to visualize what the signals do
13:53:45  <planetmaker> opening a programming box for each of the quadrillion signals is... not a good choice
13:53:56  <planetmaker> And nothing in this respect has afaik ever been even tried
13:54:12  <Pikka> except in TTDPatch :)
13:55:29  <spongie> I don't think there's a need to add advanced programming, something like a simplified "conditional signal" would be enough
13:55:33  <spongie> some predifined tests.
13:55:33  <planetmaker> it won't run here, but by what I heart you have to check there on each signal
13:55:55  <planetmaker> spongie: we have conditional orders...
13:55:59  <spongie> like "group selector"
13:56:04  <spongie> hmmm
13:56:10  <spongie> lemme fire up openttd
13:56:34  <Pikka> planetmaker: yes.  but it's not like you ever wanted to program every signal
13:56:57  <planetmaker> Indeed. I didn't want to
13:58:08  <Pikka> so it's not like "each of the quadrillion signals" needs a programming box.
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13:58:22  <planetmaker> well. That's what it needs, though
13:58:51  <Pikka> maybe I'm misunderstanding :)
13:59:10  <planetmaker> you can't say that you got solved the UI issue for programmable signals when it sucks majorly after you added 10
13:59:21  <spongie> is there a way to add new conditions to the order?
13:59:42  <spongie> like for instance, continue loading until no more cargo is available AND the next signal is green
14:00:12  <Pikka> surely you'd open one signal at a time, like train orders, planetmaker?
14:00:47  <planetmaker> Pikka: that's surely a pain, if you want to really then understand how your network works
14:00:59  <planetmaker> so indeed, I don't consider that a good option
14:01:43  <planetmaker> Usually I might wonder why train XY ended up in place C
14:01:52  <spongie> id like to add signal checks and train charecteristics checks
14:01:59  <planetmaker> currently it suffices to know where the tracks go and at the train orders
14:02:12  <planetmaker> sometimes the signaling is important, but you see how they work by their sprite
14:02:19  <planetmaker> that is totally lost with programmable signals
14:02:25  <Pikka> programmable signals would have their own sprite
14:02:29  <planetmaker> thus you need to look at the train, the overall track and EVERY signal
14:02:41  <planetmaker> yes. But the sprite doesn't indicate how it works
14:02:44  <Pikka> true
14:02:55  <spongie> conditional orders sounds like a good bet
14:02:56  <Pikka> but you'd see the one programmable signal on the route and say "hmm". :)
14:03:26  <planetmaker> yep. And then I say 'hm' a hundret times ;-)
14:03:42  <spongie> planetmaker: why would you use the programmable signals that much if you didnt like em? :)
14:03:47  <spongie> (and found them useful)
14:03:52  <Pikka> only if you've used programmable signals in a ridiculous way, in which case you deserve what you get :P
14:04:17  <planetmaker> spongie: it's not that I don't like them. But I don't like to debug other people games when they complain "my train doesn't do what it's supposed to do. Your path finder is broken"
14:04:22  <planetmaker> that'd end up at my feet. Not yours
14:04:43  <spongie> just say "the pathfinder is fiiiiiiiiine" and have a drink
14:04:58  <Pikka> :)
14:05:15  <spongie> i recommend jameson, its what im having right now
14:05:20  <planetmaker> "NewGRFs cannot be changed." And then I have a drink. Mostly works
14:05:21  <Pikka> well, you don't care enough about people doing stupid things with signals then complaining to remove the presignals ;)
14:05:50  <planetmaker> Pikka: but adding that complexity w/o proper interface leaves a bad impression
14:06:04  <planetmaker> "doesn't work" will be the perception. And that's not good nor helpful
14:06:13  <spongie> but guys, what do you think about my idea about not having the train exit load/unload state before the first exit signal from the station is green
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14:06:31  <spongie> planetmaker: works for microsoft and apple ;)
14:06:34  <planetmaker> what is an 'exit signal'?
14:06:43  <spongie> planetmaker: well my mistake. clumbsy.
14:06:45  <spongie> any signal
14:06:52  <spongie> i meant the first signal in the path from station
14:06:55  <planetmaker> even if it goes in the wrong direction?
14:07:15  <planetmaker> even if it's 20 tiles away?
14:07:18  <spongie> no. and i guess a pbs wont work well either
14:07:24  <spongie> yes to that
14:07:25  <planetmaker> what distance should it cover / wait in the station?
14:07:37  <planetmaker> what about A <--> B without signal?
14:07:50  <spongie> guess it wouldnt exit
14:07:52  <planetmaker> touble-tracked, two trains
14:07:54  <spongie> how can you even do that?
14:08:00  <planetmaker> one path signal somewhere
14:08:03  <planetmaker> would work
14:08:06  <planetmaker> without crash
14:08:10  <spongie> ok
14:08:29  <spongie> ok, how about checking just the tile immediately after the station
14:08:32  <spongie> if theres no tile no check
14:08:38  <spongie> if theres no signal on the tile taht is
14:08:49  <spongie> WOHOO JAMESON, kicking my ass in the early afternoon
14:08:51  <planetmaker> whatabout not adding that complexity?
14:08:55  <planetmaker> it's unobvious
14:09:16  <spongie> planetmaker: perhaps. but it makes little sense for a train to leave the station only to wait at the end tile of the station
14:09:44  <spongie> (or half a tile outside, or whatever it is)
14:09:45  <planetmaker> It doesn't know the signal is red. It might even change state between starting and stopping there
14:09:58  <planetmaker> It might be able to reserve a path or not
14:10:01  <spongie> which is why i want my trains to wait until it has a green one
14:10:03  <planetmaker> you might modify the track or not
14:10:09  <spongie> pbs' dont work, thats true
14:10:21  <planetmaker> yeah. It has green and then turns to red --> waits there ater driving 2px
14:10:29  <spongie> the alternative would be to have the option to add a signal on the station itself
14:10:45  <spongie> perhaps each station could have an implicit pbs like depots
14:10:46  <planetmaker> the better alternative is to have signals between tiles ;-)
14:11:33  <spongie> it sucks seeing a train being a fraction of a tile off the station meanwhile cargo is piling up
14:12:19  <planetmaker> use 'full load' orders
14:12:20  <planetmaker> ;-)
14:12:32  <spongie> planetmaker: i could use a percentage perhaps
14:13:08  <spongie> but do you get what im getting at? :)
14:14:09  <planetmaker> that's a completely different 3rd thing, though
14:14:20  <spongie> what is?
14:14:42  <planetmaker> "leave station after loading X%"
14:14:48  <spongie> yeah, it was just a sidenote
14:14:58  <spongie> it wouldnt be as effective as "load until a green light"
14:15:08  <spongie> an implicit pbs from stations would fix it.
14:15:09  <Mark> spongie: That would be awesome.
14:15:44  <spongie> spongie: oh. i thought i was just rambling. cool.
14:16:05  <Mark> :)
14:17:04  <spongie> i usually use signals to space out the trains so they arrive evenly, but when theyre stuck in that state of leaving the station only to get stuck on the next tile with a red signal i feel sorry for the commuters. :(
14:17:07  <planetmaker> many things would be nice
14:17:12  <Mark> I wonder if that is applicable.
14:17:34  <planetmaker> like "don't leave the station when signal is not green" implies at leas modification to the path finder
14:17:35  <spongie> Mark: yeah, im investigating a bit, but i havent found any way for newgrf to support adding a signal to the station
14:17:42  <planetmaker> which is a whole can of worms ;-)
14:17:49  <Mark> spongie: Mkay.
14:17:51  <spongie> planetmaker: what about adding a signal to the station?
14:17:57  <spongie> like with depots
14:18:12  <spongie> hmm. ofcourse, trains are not in the depot when waiting for free path...
14:18:12  <planetmaker> and adding signals is not a NewGRF thing. It needs changing core parts of path finders
14:18:36  <planetmaker> a can of worms _I_ will avoid to open
14:20:25  <planetmaker> of course everyone is welcome to open it and implement it :-)
14:20:44  <spongie> yeah but does it make sense?
14:20:57  <planetmaker> I think signals at tile borders makes more sense
14:20:59  <spongie> may be a condition for the load thingy could suffice
14:21:00  <planetmaker> you'd get that for free
14:21:17  <spongie> planetmaker: but how to tell the train not to quit the load/unload state
14:21:24  <planetmaker> I don't
14:21:35  <planetmaker> that's another thing
14:22:02  <spongie> so... many... things.
14:22:16  <planetmaker> yes
14:23:04  <planetmaker> a load order like "load up to X% of the capacity" probably could be done already now
14:23:15  <planetmaker> though it'd be a minimum amount
14:27:42  <spongie> planetmaker: doesnt it exist already?
14:28:40  <spongie> jump when load percentage is <cmp> to <num>
14:28:52  <planetmaker> That's a drive order, not a load order
14:29:09  <spongie> hmmmm
14:29:10  <spongie> right.
14:29:15  <spongie> i didnt think about that.
14:29:45  <spongie> oh, i also saw an inverse signal
14:29:49  <spongie> is that availble?
14:29:59  <spongie> (in the varaction2 variable 10 bits)
14:31:29  <planetmaker> what is an inverse signal?
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14:32:21  <Belugas> hello
14:32:50  <spongie> planetmaker: its a bit you can set in the variable 10 of varactions2
14:32:52  <spongie> im not sure
14:32:55  <Belugas> F
14:32:57  <Belugas>   R
14:32:59  <Belugas>     I
14:33:02  <Belugas>       D
14:33:03  <spongie> FRIDAY!
14:33:06  <Belugas>         A
14:33:11  <Belugas>           Y
14:33:11  <Mark> It's friay, friday.
14:33:21  <spongie> yay, let the drinking continue
14:33:24  <Belugas> yeahyeaheay!!!!
14:33:44  <Belugas> hoo... so that is why your called spongie:)
14:33:47  <Belugas> makes sens ;)
14:33:57  <spongie> im a sponge
14:34:10  <spongie> its my in game nick also
14:34:40  <spongie> and github account
14:35:43  <planetmaker> spongie: you should read the introduction section of the VarAction2 for signals again
14:35:55  <planetmaker> especially the 1st sentence
14:40:55  <spongie> planetmaker: ahhh
14:41:40  <spongie> do you guys have a good design for a load balancer for a multi track mainline?
14:41:47  <spongie> all the ones ive seen online have some minor issues
14:42:18  <spongie> path signals for instance seem to have a built-in delay even though the next signal is green. this has to do with the penalty calculation of the lookahead, i suspect
14:42:42  <Pikka> hello Belugas
14:43:28  <spongie> it seems the path signal ones start zigzagging, the presignal examples i found online have a flaw when one train starts making the shift, but another speeding train beats it to the punch
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14:48:05  <annyy>
14:48:15  *** annyy [annyy@] has quit [autokilled: spambot. Dont mail with questions. (2012-03-02 14:49:05)]
14:48:25  <Belugas> sir Pikka!
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14:48:42  <Belugas> hello, been a while :D how's life?
14:48:43  <spongie> hm. guess the tunnel one works ok
14:48:53  <Pikka> fine fine :)
14:49:03  <Pikka> trying to get all my grfs finished for 1.2 :P
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14:49:46  <Belugas> hehe
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14:49:50  <Belugas> looks like "fun"
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14:51:57  <Pikka> definitely :P
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14:56:28  <spongie> do you guys play online on the public servers?
14:58:20  <Belugas> me?  don't play anymore.  Some chords here and there not to loose touch, but that's it
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15:00:12  <dihedral> pitty that :-(
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15:04:50  <Pikka> we'll have to have a ukrs2 et al game when 1.2 comes out! :D
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15:11:05  <Belugas> just wait for the basement to be done >:-)
15:12:24  <planetmaker> :-)
15:13:11  <andythenorth> April 1!
15:13:26  * andythenorth will not finish grfs by then :|
15:14:02  <Pikka> :]
15:14:11  <Pikka> well, you haven't been working on them for as long as I have :P
15:15:13  <andythenorth> eez true
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15:33:15  <Rubidium> oh noh... andy's already asking about extra extra zoom?
15:34:03  <DanMacK> lol
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15:55:57  <Terkhen> hello
15:56:37  <planetmaker> hi Terkhen
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16:02:54  <andythenorth> hola Terkhen
16:14:58  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
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16:24:59  <andythenorth> ho
16:25:09  <andythenorth> 4x zoom + ctrl-b = win
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16:32:44  <MNIM> Ctrl+b?
16:38:24  <andythenorth> bounding box
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16:44:00  <MNIM> ahah, what does that do?
16:45:29  <Illegal_Alien> Makes a box?
16:45:30  <TWerkhoven[l]> tron-style overlay?
16:45:57  <TWerkhoven[l]> you see all boxes round engines and wagons and everything else
16:50:57  <Pikka> oh no
16:51:07  * Pikka adding fmsp to TaI D;
16:51:16  <andythenorth> ?
16:51:21  <Pikka> it's still not as complicated as FIRS though :D
16:51:44  <andythenorth> stockpiling?
16:51:52  <Pikka> yes
16:52:11  <Pikka> on reflection, ordering by cargo was possibly not the clearest way of doing it, but... *shrugs*
16:52:30  <Pikka> now I just have to get this done by april 1st too. D;
16:55:34  <andythenorth> how are you going to close your furnaces?  or aren't you?
16:56:14  <Pikka> the dates are the dates they can be built
16:56:22  <MNIM> shouldn't 'gasworks' be 'glassworks'?
16:56:26  <Pikka> no
16:56:39  <andythenorth> gasworks ftw :)
16:57:01  <MNIM> 0-o.
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16:58:05  <andythenorth> I have some source images in my FIRS folder for gas works
16:58:08  <andythenorth> like this
16:58:18  <Pikka> so things like the gasworks and furnaces won't automatically close, but - because they have small stockpiles, for one thing - players will tend to stop servicing them if there's a newer power station or refinery nearby.
16:58:25  <Pikka> I have a "powerhouse" already drawn
16:58:30  <Pikka> just gotta add the gasometers :D
16:58:39  <Pikka> (and make a gasometer town building too!)
16:59:32  <Pikka> andy, more like
17:00:22  <Pikka> brb
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17:07:22  <andythenorth> gah
17:07:31  * andythenorth hates dealing with offsets and vehicle lengths
17:07:41  <andythenorth> articulated trucks are apparently an impossible case :P
17:07:52  <andythenorth> or the nml template needs adjusting
17:12:13  <andythenorth> or I'm a dumb dumb
17:12:32  <andythenorth> no point blaming the template when you're using the wrong one
17:12:54  <andythenorth> today's moral: don't test graphics while feeding a toddler pasta
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17:21:43  <MNIM> ...uh
17:22:04  <MNIM> how did you come to that wond'rous discovery?
17:22:47  <andythenorth> empirically
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17:32:40  <_maddy> hi all, anyone up for coop multiplayer?
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17:33:12  * MNIM snickers andythenorth.
17:33:13  <MNIM> *at
17:34:34  <Yexo> you fed the baby graphics while testing the pasta? :p
17:35:10  <andythenorth> I screwed up the graphics while failing to feed the baby correctly :|
17:35:35  <MNIM> haha
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17:54:51  <Elukka>
17:54:55  <Elukka> MULTI-TRACK DRIFTING
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18:10:12  <Illegal_Alien> I like the add "rough tracks"
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18:19:53  <Wolf01> ing
18:21:44  <NGC3982> what the
18:22:05  <NGC3982> it actually rerailed and railed on another track?
18:22:26  <NGC3982> derailed*
18:22:45  <MNIM> or it ran over a moving switch
18:22:53  <MNIM> and one bogey got switched and the other didn;t
18:24:06  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
18:24:09  <NGC3982> most likely
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18:26:28  <andythenorth> picked the switch
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18:27:38  * andythenorth wonders how to generate log sprites
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18:29:44  <xiong> Mazur, hey!
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18:30:29  <andythenorth> hmm
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18:31:37  <andythenorth> could be easiest to just draw the damn things for all lengths needed
18:34:24  <Mazur> Yes?
18:34:37  <Wolf01> even
18:34:43  <Wolf01> hey it's arrived!
18:37:12  <andythenorth> help me out here...
18:37:25  <andythenorth> cargos that ship in coils include...?
18:37:26  <andythenorth> - steel
18:37:28  <andythenorth> - paper
18:37:29  <andythenorth> ??
18:37:35  <NGC3982> PROFIT????
18:37:36  <Wolf01> plastic
18:37:37  <andythenorth> (for known cargos in openttd)
18:40:04  <andythenorth> copper?
18:40:48  <Mazur> Copper's been known to be wound on coils for shipment.
18:40:57  <Mazur> Glassfiberoptics.
18:41:15  <andythenorth> corresponds to which openttd cargo?
18:41:17  <andythenorth> :)
18:41:49  <Mazur> Oh, going to restrict the category now, are you?
18:42:01  <Mazur> <andythenorth> cargos that ship in coils include...?
18:42:07  <Mazur> That was the original question.
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18:44:10  <FHerne> Engineering supplies? Cables, ropes, wiring etc
18:44:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24001 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
18:44:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
18:45:14  <andythenorth> k thanks all
18:45:15  <andythenorth> :)
18:47:37  * andythenorth is figuring out which load sprites to generate
18:47:58  <FHerne> More ship cargo sprites then?
18:48:03  <andythenorth> BANDIT first
18:48:14  <FHerne> Aw
18:48:29  <andythenorth> but yes, the pixel generator will be applied to FISH later too
18:48:35  <FHerne> :-)
18:48:39  <andythenorth> my list so far:
18:49:00  <andythenorth> coils, pipes/tubes, crates, ISO containers, loads covered by tarpaulins, dimensional lumber, vehicles / machinery
18:49:05  <andythenorth> logs
18:49:46  <FHerne> Livestock sprites?
18:49:53  <andythenorth> maybe
18:50:02  <andythenorth> (logs might be both tree-length and sawn logs, not sure)
18:50:31  <FHerne> Will you be having tanks for milk/oil/chemicals, too?
18:50:33  <andythenorth> barrels?
18:50:53  <FHerne> Would be good for your brewery
18:51:31  <andythenorth> I have tank trailers, but yes something for liquid cargo needed
18:51:31  <andythenorth>
18:51:33  <andythenorth> hmm
18:51:38  <andythenorth> sugar cane.  tricky
18:52:09  <andythenorth> toyland batteries?  ugh
18:52:47  <Terkhen> Feel free to steal cargo sprites from ogfx-rv :P
18:53:08  <andythenorth> thanks
18:53:15  <andythenorth> need any yourself?
18:53:25  <andythenorth> bales...bales are a sadly missing cargo
18:53:37  <andythenorth> wool, fibre crops are baled
18:53:58  <andythenorth> milk churns are just barrels
18:54:00  <andythenorth> glass?
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18:54:28  <andythenorth>
18:54:34  * Terkhen does not remember
18:55:13  <andythenorth> hm
18:55:19  <andythenorth> recyclables are often baled
18:55:37  <andythenorth> Fish!
18:55:50  <andythenorth> bulk cargo: dump truck full of animated water :P
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19:04:07  * Rhamphoryncus waves to andythenorth
19:04:14  <andythenorth> hi
19:04:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Testing is coming along well
19:04:45  <FHerne> Refrigerated fish boxes for that?
19:05:06  <andythenorth> maybe
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19:48:06  <andythenorth> really really, just use the fricking GPL  :x
19:48:54  <andythenorth> also, who knew MU trains were worth so many words in one post? :o
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19:52:49  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
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20:14:37  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: is it possible to have a button on industry windows to inject money to prolong near-closing industries?  Or is that beyond what a grf can do?
20:14:49  <andythenorth> beyond
20:14:53  <andythenorth> game patch
20:15:22  <Rhamphoryncus> okay.  Not a big deal, just thought I'd ask
20:15:24  <andythenorth> imo players should be able to own industries and such
20:15:28  <andythenorth> and generate money from them
20:15:35  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
20:15:38  <andythenorth> but that would be close to Railroad Tycoon 2 /3
20:15:49  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
20:15:55  <andythenorth> and RT3 was pretty much an industry game, the trains were purely incidental in many scenarioa
20:16:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Removing "cargo waiting to be processed" is a game patch too?
20:16:29  <andythenorth> yup
20:17:14  <andythenorth> ideally it would be a new cb, allowing total control of the industry window (or extend cb 3A)
20:17:15  <andythenorth>
20:17:37  <andythenorth> set a byte somewhere, you get a blank canvas in that window
20:17:40  <andythenorth> desirable
20:18:43  * Rhamphoryncus nods
20:19:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Couple more points to bring up.  Fishing grounds define the farm supplies string but don't include extra_text_primary.pnml?
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20:22:30  <Rhamphoryncus> So are they intended to be a farm or is that just cruft from when they used to be a farm?
20:23:18  <NGC3982> dudes, got tip on any neat train model grf?
20:23:34  <Rhamphoryncus> NGC3982: which ones have you used?
20:23:46  <NGC3982> FIRS+ECS
20:23:59  <Rhamphoryncus> So no train sets :)
20:24:13  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: sounds like cruft.  Fishing grounds take no input cargo
20:24:40  <NGC3982> a bit tired of the royal hudson and mat '41
20:24:48  <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: isnt FIRS a train set?
20:25:03  <andythenorth> try it and see
20:25:16  <Rhamphoryncus> NGC3982: NARS, 2CC, and UKRS come to mind
20:25:31  <Rhamphoryncus> NGC3982: No, it's an industry replacement
20:26:10  <Rhamphoryncus> I have more train sets installed than I've even used
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20:26:25  <NGC3982> oh wait, sorry. it's 2CC ive tried.
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20:26:36  <NGC3982> ah, ok.
20:26:48  <NGC3982> is all of the above available in the content download?
20:26:54  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
20:26:59  <NGC3982> thank you!
20:27:05  <Rhamphoryncus> and many more.  Search for "train" and such
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20:34:17  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I'll delete the cruft then.  Next up, I'm thinking secondaries need some user feedback as they approach closure.  As it is I still haven't seen a primary close, but at 5 years the secondaries are closing regularly
20:34:44  <andythenorth> hard to do well
20:34:59  <andythenorth> is there a ticket about it in the devzone?
20:35:06  <andythenorth> it's an often discussed issue
20:35:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Don't you get to tell a secondary to close?
20:35:32  <andythenorth> yes
20:35:41  <andythenorth> I'm not sure if we do or not at the moment though
20:35:52  <Rhamphoryncus> Just opened it, you do
20:36:27  <andythenorth> is it based on when cargo was last delivered?
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20:36:52  <Rhamphoryncus> var_closure_counter going up to 60 months
20:37:19  <Rhamphoryncus> Then a 50/50 chance.  I assume this doesn't get called every month or there would be many more closures
20:38:06  <andythenorth> maybe we rely on the random prod. change
20:38:14  <andythenorth> I don't recall that code well
20:38:23  <andythenorth> I'll open it later - food right now
20:38:49  * Rhamphoryncus nods
20:38:49  <andythenorth> possible to trigger a production change message
20:39:20  <andythenorth> do you have a patch queue or such?
20:39:25  <Rhamphoryncus> I'd like it to behave like a primary, but simplified.  Randomly reduce a counter when not serviced, randomly increase it when you are
20:39:47  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm using hg normally.  Me and mq didn't get along
20:40:12  <andythenorth> do you have diffs for features?
20:41:17  <Rhamphoryncus> I could do one of planetmaker's patches (but after I fixed collisions), then another of my subsequent changes?
20:41:47  <andythenorth> sounds fine
20:41:54  <andythenorth> as long as they can be reviewed easily....
20:42:11  <Rhamphoryncus> I haven't done a heck of a lot.  90% of the patch will probably be updating the string define
20:42:28  <Rhamphoryncus> I definitely understand why CPP was used :)
20:43:23  <andythenorth> it's a big project, with a lot of repetition
20:43:42  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, and nml doesn't give the power you need
20:44:16  <Rhamphoryncus> I should let you go :)
20:44:32  <andythenorth> I have a mouth full of chicken tikka.  I'm good.
20:44:42  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
20:45:01  <andythenorth> templating nml with python is highly effective ;)
20:45:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, another thing I'm planning to do is say "Increase: not possible." if we're at 800%
20:45:30  <andythenorth> There's a string for 'max production reached' or such already
20:45:48  <Rhamphoryncus> It's not used with the new primary strings
20:46:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Do you prefer to say "max production reached."?
20:46:57  <andythenorth> STR_EXTRA_MAX_PRODUCTION
20:49:09  * Rhamphoryncus nods
20:49:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Probably save that for a separate patch
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21:03:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Closing seems trigger in the middle of the month.  I've seen them have less than a week's notice
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21:05:12  <supermop> hello
21:05:42  <andythenorth> hi supermop
21:06:02  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: closing is zero notice afaik
21:06:18  * andythenorth opens the code
21:06:45  <Rhamphoryncus> It closes at the beginning of the next month
21:07:18  <Rhamphoryncus> I believe the base industries announce at the start of the month, giving them a full month of wait.  I may be wrong though.
21:07:24  <andythenorth> ok we use the random prod. change for closing
21:07:41  <andythenorth> and the code we have for it currently is pretty similar to what default game does
21:08:25  <andythenorth> once closure is announced, there's no way back afaik
21:08:34  <Rhamphoryncus> That I know
21:08:42  <andythenorth>
21:08:44  <andythenorth> result 03
21:09:33  <andythenorth> there is a revision from (long time ago) with power stations that showed their closure chance
21:09:35  <Rhamphoryncus> when is random_production_change called?  During the middle of the month?
21:09:49  <andythenorth> not sure - would need industry_cmd.cpp to find that
21:11:48  <Rhamphoryncus> IndustryDailyLoop
21:11:59  <andythenorth> announcing closure chance with a news message is problematic
21:11:59  <Rhamphoryncus> So yeah, any day during the month
21:12:11  <andythenorth> as closure is not deterministic
21:12:59  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, and if the player can't intervene there's not much point
21:13:16  <andythenorth> we could run a message on the monthly loop, after say....48 months
21:13:34  <andythenorth> just show it once 'deliver cargo within 12 months or industry risks closure'
21:13:35  <Rhamphoryncus> I'd be happy if the industry window just said "This industry is in good health.", "This industry is in poor health.", or "This industry is in dire straights."
21:13:45  <andythenorth> hmm
21:13:51  <andythenorth> let me see if I can find how we did it before
21:14:19  <Rhamphoryncus> The actual mechanics of progression don't matter, as long as it is a progression and the player can see it
21:15:19  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: around about r657, you'd find nfo code for the power station that handled showing messages
21:15:31  * Rhamphoryncus nods
21:15:45  <andythenorth> THIS_STR_INFO_WARN_1, THIS_STR_INFO_WARN_2 might be of use
21:15:54  <andythenorth> although it's all nfo at that point ;)
21:16:07  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
21:18:17  <andythenorth> hmm
21:18:31  <andythenorth> wouldn't it be nice if cargo subtypes could actually be used as intended
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21:18:45  <Rhamphoryncus> What's a cargo subtype?
21:18:49  <andythenorth> instead of being abused for things like length refits, livery refits
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21:22:47  <andythenorth>
21:23:30  <Rhamphoryncus> ooh nice
21:23:57  <andythenorth> the original intent of it is kind of dumb and confusing
21:24:00  <Rhamphoryncus> but.. all their examples should require a different wagon
21:24:07  <andythenorth> it's extensively abused for other purposes
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21:25:52  <Rhamphoryncus> To do their examples you should turn "goods" into the meta-type an industry produces, then ask a cargo dest system what specific type (cars, petroleum, sheet metal) to produce
21:27:53  * Rhamphoryncus notices his coal mine rating has dropped to 48%.  And has 1000+ tonnes waiting.
21:33:57  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: turn on improved station rating :P
21:34:16  <Rhamphoryncus> nah, just need to improve service
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21:40:33  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm so used to dealing with station rating that it's not an issue anymore
21:45:30  * Belugas nods
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21:52:54  * Rhamphoryncus nods at Belugas
21:55:43  * Belugas nods at the nodding one
21:56:11  * Belugas checks his watch and find it interestingly close to liberation time!
21:57:05  <Rhamphoryncus> It's already time for the coup?
21:57:13  <Rhamphoryncus> I thought that was at least another month away
21:59:03  <Belugas> he??
21:59:39  <Belugas> Job is over for the weekend
21:59:45  <Belugas> that's a liberation time
21:59:54  <Belugas> and now... bye!
22:00:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Right.. that..
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22:30:58  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: my ideal station rating would be based on the lowest waiting cargo achieved in the last several months
22:31:20  <andythenorth> try it in game :P
22:31:33  <andythenorth> with secondary industry, you might find some flaws with that
22:31:41  <andythenorth> achieve 100% rating with no production :P
22:31:52  <andythenorth> also, it's got a nasty edge case
22:31:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Just have to make sure that counts as 0%, heh
22:32:07  <andythenorth> as rating decreases, cargo distributed decreases
22:32:23  <andythenorth> so given enough time, not transporting cargo will increase your rating :P
22:32:27  <andythenorth> (a long time)
22:32:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Sorry, lowest waiting as a percentage of the monthly output
22:32:54  <andythenorth> iirc, not available to you
22:33:01  <andythenorth> the rating is a station cb
22:33:11  <Rhamphoryncus> doh
22:33:12  <andythenorth> stations know nothing about internals of industry
22:33:20  <Rhamphoryncus> That does cripple it, yes
22:33:22  <Chris_Booth> gggr
22:33:28  <andythenorth> worth checking, I might misremember
22:33:36  <andythenorth> we have rating code in FIRS
22:33:41  <Chris_Booth> I am going to have to ignore cb typed in the channel
22:34:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Chris_Booth: if you want revenge just start talking about adam sandler x_x
22:34:51  <Chris_Booth> lol I am not mean!
22:38:08  <Rhamphoryncus> My name is adam so those set off my nick highlighter all the time
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22:39:46  <peter1138> who is adam sandler and why would we talk about him?
22:40:03  <Rhamphoryncus> Some american actor I care nothing about
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22:43:58  <frosch123> night
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23:00:02  <spongie> in this tutorial ( they reuse SH 125 engine, could someone buy me a quick clue on how to add a completely new vehicle?
23:00:41  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
23:01:54  * planetmaker highly recommends as tutorial
23:01:56  <Terkhen> good night
23:02:01  <planetmaker> g'night, Terkhen
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23:17:55  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:55:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Haw.  NARS requires cabooses on freight trains.  It doesn't say where in the train it has to be.
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