Log for #openttd on 8th March 2012:
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00:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's definitely not ok to ask questions about asking a question
00:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> @topic get 3
00:00:59  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
00:01:20  <bloopletech> sure, just checking this wasn't a dev only channel
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00:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you could have an answer by now, but now i'm gone...
00:02:21  <bloopletech> I'm trying to get 1.1.5 running on my new ubuntu oneiric install. I installed the deb for 64bit from the website and installed it. I've downloaded open[g,s,m]fx from the website and put the contents of each zip in ~/.openttd/baseset
00:02:39  <bloopletech> but when I start openttd I still get "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt."
00:02:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "baseset" is only for 1.2.0 and later, in 1.1.5 it must be "data"
00:03:07  <michi_cc> Section 4.1 of readme.txt would have told you that :)
00:04:05  <bloopletech> I couldn't find th readme locally so I read the one off of trunk, which is obv. for 1.2
00:04:42  <bloopletech> Someone might want to look at the readmes for the open* packs, one or two of them use baseset
00:05:00  <bloopletech> thanks for the help
00:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause> bloopletech: that'll all be obsolete once 1.2.0 is finalized
00:05:32  <michi_cc> I think the Open* projects all now target the not very far off 1.2.0 finak.
00:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> bloopletech: which is probably in a few weeks
00:06:12  <bloopletech> Eddi|zuHause, ok thanks
00:06:26  <michi_cc> Unless you want exactly 1.1.5 for network play, I'd go for the 1.2 RC anyway. Much better ;)
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00:11:30  <bloopletech> well my other computers and my friend are all on 1.1.5 right now, I think I'll just wait for the release :)
00:12:25  <bloopletech> though saying that, this particular game is now stuck in a sound loop ;)
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01:12:07  <NessPJ> hi all
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06:34:51  <andythenorth> morning
06:35:56  <Nat_aS> evining
06:36:17  <Nat_aS> how come swaping newgrigs in the scenerio editor mode isn't more stable?
06:36:32  <Nat_aS> I can understand how it can cause problems in game, but scenerio editor should be safe
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06:43:48  <peter1138> scenarios are jus games
06:44:30  <peter1138> +t
06:44:45  <Nat_aS> but isn't there a way to make newgrif loading more sanatary?
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06:44:59  <Nat_aS> so the game wont crash or become corrupted?
06:48:10  <Nat_aS> is there any way to mitigate the remove newgrif crashing?
06:48:39  <Nat_aS> because it sucks when an old scenerio is no longer compatible because the maker bundled it with newgrifs you don't even care about.
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06:50:47  <planetmaker> the scenario is still compatible. you just need the proper newgrfs...
06:51:25  <planetmaker> and 'how come': hysterical raisins.
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07:21:48  <andythenorth> Pikka: 'lo weebl
07:22:09  <Pikka> sup jim
07:22:18  <andythenorth> put a tarp on it
07:24:45  <Pikka> I just replaced all my 1Ds cargo masks with 2C/2Ds
07:24:50  <Pikka> hilarity shall ensue
07:26:55  <andythenorth> 'refit all'
07:26:58  <andythenorth> 'refit some'
07:27:03  <andythenorth> 'refit maybe'
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08:00:59  <Pikka> thinks:
08:01:39  * andythenorth sends pikka a link
08:01:43  <andythenorth>
08:01:47  <andythenorth> ^ needs some work still
08:02:05  <Pikka> how rare
08:02:16  <andythenorth> hmm
08:02:20  <andythenorth> let's pick some more colours
08:02:27  * Pikka tries to squeeze some cars onto those cartics...
08:03:28  <andythenorth> pink?
08:03:42  <Pikka> strange colour for a tarp
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08:05:07  <andythenorth> greenish?
08:05:11  <andythenorth> anyway, you get the idea :P
08:05:29  <andythenorth> want a new colour?  add it, get all load states, in lengths 2-8
08:06:49  <Scuddles> those graphics just draw themselves
08:07:01  <planetmaker> looks tasty, andythenorth
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08:09:27  <andythenorth> the layout is a bit horrorshow
08:09:38  <andythenorth> hang on, I'll turn on the template
08:10:07  <Pikka> ХПрПшП
08:10:31  <andythenorth>
08:10:42  <Pikka> Scuddles what are you doing here
08:10:49  <andythenorth> the template colours are normally removed during the render
08:11:05  <andythenorth> but they can be left in
08:13:41  <andythenorth> so...I plan to release all the cargo sprites when done
08:13:56  <andythenorth> so people who are terrified of the generator can paste them in with a pixel editor
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08:14:08  <andythenorth> they're on the nml template currently
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11:56:11  <Pikka> andythenorth:
11:56:16  <Pikka> looks passable, non?
11:56:42  <Pikka> I fixed up the roof on the yellow car a bit since the screenshot
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12:00:20  <andythenorth> Pikka: oui
12:00:23  <andythenorth> c'est shiny
12:00:43  <Pikka> I'm going to have to make them carry "goods" now too so that people will actually see them :)
12:01:05  <andythenorth> ach
12:01:14  <andythenorth> does TAI have cars / vehicles cargos?
12:01:18  <Pikka> nope
12:01:40  <Pikka> but if you take steel and plastic and lumber to a factory, it seems reasonable that cars might come out?
12:01:43  <andythenorth> yup
12:01:52  <andythenorth> I'm adding an auto-plant to FIRS at some point
12:02:07  <andythenorth> I'll do an economy featuring it
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12:10:32  <andythenorth> Pikka: you made it a full 4-car set ;)
12:10:35  <andythenorth> I notice...
12:11:13  <Pikka> and why not? :]
12:11:35  <andythenorth> indeed
12:11:50  <andythenorth> the rivet-counters might pop up and point out problems....
12:12:02  <andythenorth> inner / outer wagons have different shapes
12:12:03  <Pikka> like?
12:12:05  <Pikka> hmm
12:12:09  <Ammler> what's a 4-car set?
12:12:11  <Pikka> well, near enough :D
12:12:15  <Pikka> cartic Ammler
12:12:32  <Pikka>
12:12:37  <andythenorth>
12:13:17  <Pikka> eh, the ends look near enough the same to the middle for TTD scale
12:13:33  <Pikka> I gave the outer ends different buffers/bogies...
12:14:10  <andythenorth> ;)
12:15:22  <Pikka>
12:15:51  <Pikka> they're zimmlock's town cars mangled down to fit the diagonals, fully GPLable.
12:16:39  <Pikka> now the question is do I go back and replace the ones on the flat cars with these ones, or leave them with the "full sized" ones...
12:17:03  <Pikka> I can't really be bothered, is the answer, I'll leave them :)
12:20:51  <andythenorth> leave them
12:20:55  <andythenorth> cargo generator!
12:21:01  <Pikka> well
12:21:09  <Pikka> I'd have to mangle down the older generation cars too
12:21:12  <Pikka> and I can't be bothered :)
12:21:32  <Pikka> not that it would take more than a couple of minutes
12:21:57  <NGC3982> hm
12:22:06  <NGC3982> what does regulate the dissaperance of an industry?
12:22:17  <NGC3982> the lack of transportated goods?
12:22:22  <Pikka> what kind of industry, NGC3982?
12:23:11  <NGC3982> any. i notice that building a station close to an industry - and not using it makes it disappear
12:23:20  <NGC3982> dissapear
12:23:26  <NGC3982> for god sake
12:23:28  <NGC3982> disappear
12:23:47  <Pikka> newgrfs can shut down industries whenever they like.  default primary industries will shut down if they are already at lowest production and try to decrease.  default secondary industries I think are polled every now and then and will shut down if they haven't recieved cargo in a few years.
12:25:07  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
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13:26:08  <andythenorth> Pikka-boodle:
13:26:21  * andythenorth should fix the alignment
13:26:43  <andythenorth> tempting to splurge on randomisation of this :P
13:26:52  <andythenorth> but how many cargo sprites can a set use anyway? :P
13:27:07  <Pikka> I'll assume that's a rhetorical question :)
13:27:13  <andythenorth> only partly
13:27:22  <andythenorth> how many cargo sprites can a set us?
13:27:26  <andythenorth> +1
13:27:31  <andythenorth> gah
13:27:40  <andythenorth> I think I'll just cut my fingers off as they have forgotten how to type
13:27:53  <Pikka> no limit, andy
13:28:05  * andythenorth blames ipads and the silly, stabby, one finger pokey keyboard thing
13:28:43  <andythenorth> well variations get trivial
13:28:57  <andythenorth> 2 small tarps, 2 big tarps, 1 small 1 big, 1 big 1 small
13:29:05  <andythenorth> same colour, different colour etc etc
13:29:13  <Pikka> mmhm
13:29:26  <andythenorth> it's only a matter of how many rules to write out :P
13:29:37  <Pikka> in my experience, for any given load 4 variations is enough
13:29:42  <andythenorth> moi aussi
13:29:54  <Pikka> gives you enough of a "random" look, any more is just tmwftlb
13:30:05  <andythenorth> any more than 4, and I'd be thinking about also having pixa generate some of the code to use them
13:30:26  <Pikka> the nfo/nfl? :P
13:30:31  <andythenorth> yeah those
13:30:36  <andythenorth> generating nfo might suck :P
13:30:39  <Pikka> just random action 2... not hard. :)
13:30:50  <andythenorth> I could generate the action 1 / realsprites
13:30:51  <Pikka> unless you want to do odder things, of course
13:30:54  <andythenorth> but rather not tbh
13:31:00  <Pikka> yes\p
13:31:05  <Pikka> and yes
13:31:07  <Pikka> and yep
13:31:57  * andythenorth smells FISH
13:32:18  <Pikka> could be the baby
13:32:28  <andythenorth> probly
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13:33:50  <andythenorth> all those boats...get lower in the water while being loaded with invisible cargo
13:33:53  <andythenorth> most strange
13:34:05  <Pikka> mm fish
13:42:35  <Pikka> ah, 1930
13:42:54  <Pikka> when planes make ,000 a year and airports cost ,000,000 a year to operate.
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13:50:28  <andythenorth> oh
13:50:33  * andythenorth made a tactical error
13:50:38  <andythenorth> toddler has seen ottd on my screen
13:50:42  <andythenorth> 'make train'
13:50:47  <Pikka> oh no :)
13:51:18  <andythenorth> is there a 0.2.0 UKRS for him to try?
13:51:34  <Pikka> not yet
13:51:50  <andythenorth> 'nvm
13:51:52  <Pikka> I've got distracted by working out running costs for airports
13:53:27  <andythenorth> 'bang the truck'
13:56:01  <planetmaker> how old is your toddler now, andythenorth ?
13:56:04  <andythenorth> 2
13:56:16  <planetmaker> dangerous age ;-)
13:56:40  <planetmaker> but I guess  the only non-dangerous age is above 25 or so :-P
13:57:16  <andythenorth> dangerous for ottd trucks right
13:57:31  <andythenorth> we need more disasters
13:57:36  <andythenorth> toddlers like disasters
13:58:01  <Pikka> just build the ol' railway snaking across the busy road, andythenorth
13:58:22  <planetmaker> newgrf-disasters
13:58:28  <planetmaker> But maybe rather via game scripts
13:58:46  <andythenorth> 20m views for this :P
13:59:53  <andythenorth> bbl
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14:03:27  <Belugas> hello
14:03:51  <Pikka> hello Belugas
14:04:08  <Belugas> sir Pikka :) it's getting an habit to see you around heheh
14:04:47  <Pikka> that's because I quit my job! :)
14:05:06  <Pikka> and consider myself on a grf-writing holiday until april 1st
14:10:31  <Belugas> ho?
14:10:36  <Belugas> that's bad
14:10:39  <Belugas> well..
14:10:41  <Belugas> maybe...
14:10:53  <Belugas> why?
14:12:23  <Belugas> mmh...not my business.  As long as you're happy with your decision ;0  It's what matters
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14:42:54  <Pikka> lol, sorry, was afk
14:43:34  <Pikka> because I figure I have better things to do with my time. ;)  I'll be trying to make a living off my wits... but I'm taking it easy until after 1.2.0 is out. :P  I have my holiday pay to keep me going for the moment.
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14:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... in libreoffice, in a table, how can i change the style of individual line segments?
14:48:17  <Pikka> wb andy
14:48:55  <andythenorth> 'lo
14:49:18  <andythenorth> it was for the battery I had to go
14:49:25  <andythenorth> [and the lego truck]
14:50:49  <Scuddles> more like pikka is going to be a professional realm of the mad god player
14:50:55  <Pikka> yes
14:52:28  * andythenorth needs a can of faster
14:52:45  <andythenorth> or somebody to wave 'premature optimisation' at him :P
14:54:07  <andythenorth> hmm
14:54:20  <andythenorth> maybe I can cache the scan of the image, and only rescan when I know it's needed
14:54:53  <andythenorth> currently, if a vehicle has 4 render passes, and 4 colour options, and 8 cargo options....
14:55:05  <andythenorth> @calc 4 * 4 * 7
14:55:05  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 112
14:55:12  <andythenorth> 120 scans :o
14:55:24  <andythenorth> and scanning seems slow
14:55:31  <andythenorth> whereas....1 might be enough
14:56:04  <andythenorth> is there someone who is a better programmer than me?
14:58:09  <TinoDidriksen> ...when you say scan, what is the context? Going over all pixels?
14:59:22  <andythenorth> yes
14:59:26  <andythenorth> familiar with PIL at all?
15:00:33  <TinoDidriksen> Nope, I don't do Python.
15:04:14  <andythenorth> nvm
15:04:34  <andythenorth> I basically rely on scanning all pixels in an image, from top-left, in rows
15:04:48  <andythenorth> repeatedly :P
15:06:16  <TinoDidriksen> Why?
15:06:30  <michi_cc> Because you have no better idea or because some newly painted pixels are input themselves?
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15:36:02  <andythenorth> because I have no better idea yet
15:36:26  <andythenorth> I didn't want to optimise too early
15:37:07  <andythenorth> what I need is some way to cache the scan, storing only the significant pixels
15:37:17  <andythenorth> and also a method to invalidate the cache on demand
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15:38:40  <andythenorth> I may be using unwise methods in PIL, it might have ways to turn the image into an iterable sequence that are faster than examining every pixel
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15:47:59  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Scan once and simply make an array/vector/dict/list with [x, y, value] and then work from that.
15:48:23  <michi_cc> Only for the interesting pixels of course.
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15:49:24  <andythenorth> yeah, that's my thinking
15:49:42  <andythenorth> I'm trying to figure out how to do that only once
15:50:00  <andythenorth> I want to do it inside the module, without forcing a rewrite of existing client code
15:50:50  <andythenorth> hmm
15:50:57  * andythenorth may have a solution
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16:25:29  <andythenorth> hmm
16:25:39  <andythenorth> caching the scan gives me a 50% reduction in run time
16:26:07  <andythenorth> ~5s to generate ~100 images
16:26:10  <andythenorth> instead of ~10s
16:27:31  <TinoDidriksen> What does the scan do? What are you changing with a scan?
16:27:51  <andythenorth> it reads the x, y, colour of each pixel
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16:29:06  <TinoDidriksen> ...but why? There's a distinct lack of algorithm details.
16:30:21  <andythenorth> TinoDidriksen:
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16:38:49  <andythenorth> I could also more deeply cache everything that needs to be drawn, instead of iterating over my cached list n times
16:38:55  <andythenorth> but I don't think that's the slow bit :P
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17:06:33  <andythenorth> hmm
17:06:45  <andythenorth> I need to teach pixa about being made with a makefile or such
17:07:41  <Pixa> I totally know about makefiles
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17:12:07  <andythenorth> so I don't really grok what I need to do yet
17:12:44  <andythenorth> I have, which imports modules (for graphics to be generated) and calls render on them
17:12:44  <andythenorth>
17:13:35  <andythenorth> I want to switch to parallel rendering, which make should be able to figure out
17:14:30  <andythenorth> I could write some kind of despatcher to wrap around each module, or give it a __main__ method
17:14:36  <andythenorth> or make understand args
17:14:54  <andythenorth> clues?
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17:45:30  <NGC3982> args?
17:45:34  <NGC3982> aaarrrrrggggs!
17:45:47  <NGC3982> and a chest of scallywags
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17:49:38  <Fujikurax1337> hi. i need som help to setup a server in OpenTTD
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17:50:55  <Fujikurax1337> anyone here done this before?
17:51:08  <__ln__> nobody, never
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17:52:31  <Ammler> lol
17:53:30  <Fujikurax1337> arrgh. for what it says on the net is a mess
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17:54:35  <NGC3982> Fujikurax1337: really?
17:54:40  <NGC3982> Fujikurax1337: what operating system are you on?
17:54:55  <Ammler> you did not mention one issue, yet
17:54:56  <planetmaker> god created the hardware and wrote the software, and mixed it to an OpenTTD server. Thus the eigths day passed.
17:55:21  <NGC3982> (correction: seventeen years)
17:55:28  <Fujikurax1337> tried on Linux and win7. open port 3979 is done.
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17:55:57  <glx> @ports
17:55:57  <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:56:12  <glx> it works for everyone else
17:56:56  <Ammler> your issue might be the forward from your router to your pc
17:57:15  <Ammler> but today router should have easy "game config wizards" :-)
17:58:09  <planetmaker> Fujikurax1337, the first questions coming to my mind are:
17:58:15  <planetmaker> - what documentation did you read?
17:58:22  <planetmaker> - what did you do in detail to make it work?
17:58:26  <planetmaker> - what did you see?
17:58:30  <planetmaker> - what did you expect to see?
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17:58:41  <planetmaker> literally. Not just qualitatively
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18:01:33  <Fujikurax13377> But it's not like there to be only and press the multi-game and it's up and running?
18:02:09  <glx> no it's a real client-server
18:03:19  <glx> but if port 3979 is correctly forwarded it should just work
18:03:29  *** Fujikurax1337 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:04:52  <glx> the best test is to enable advertise and check
18:06:34  <glx> because with some crappy routers even if everything works you may not see your server from inside your network
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18:07:45  <Ammler> Fujikurax13377: I would assume like with every other game server you setup or with torrents or other p2p
18:11:27  <planetmaker> mind that you allow port 3979 for both TCP and UDP in- and outgoing and port 3978 outgoing for both UDP and TCP
18:11:39  <planetmaker> on both your personal firewall as well your router's
18:11:59  <planetmaker> in 99% of the cases people swear they set all that, but find out they didn't ;-)
18:18:41  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:20:32  <Ammler> if you need to bother about outgoing, you stay in a strange place :-)
18:21:56  <Fujikurax13377> TCP/UDP 3979
18:29:02  <Fujikurax13377> in RUN i type in "openttd -d" then blabla...
18:29:42  <glx> -d is debug
18:29:54  <glx> you need -D for server
18:30:28  <glx> unless you start server via ingame gui
18:30:51  <Fujikurax13377>  -D*
18:30:55  <planetmaker> windows users are usually blissfully ignorant of case :-)
18:32:22  <Fujikurax13377> is there any software I can use and set up an OpenTTD server? apart from the play itself.
18:32:42  <Fujikurax13377> for it does not work.
18:32:55  <glx> what does the console say when you start with -D ?
18:33:17  <glx> is there any advertising related lines ?
18:33:47  <Fujikurax13377> just a moment
18:34:08  <Fujikurax13377> okey
18:35:45  <Fujikurax13377> We are not recevingthe acknowledgement fromthe server. pleaseallpw udp and tcp packets to port 3979 to be delivered.
18:36:05  <Fujikurax13377> please allow*
18:37:19  <glx> ok, if forwarding is correct it's your ISP
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18:37:29  <Fujikurax13377> ISP is? :P
18:37:40  <glx> internet provider
18:37:44  <morph__> Anyone can send me Avignon installation for Linux (or source)?
18:37:55  <morph__> I can't find the god damn installation anywhere :(
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18:41:36  <Fujikurax13377> that suck*. why so difficult.just want to play the game with a friend over the net.
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18:44:00  <planetmaker> morph__: the authors are dihedral and Osai. Ask them
18:44:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24018 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:44:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 21 changes by mgarde
18:44:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 7 changes by OliTTD
18:44:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 8 changes by Phreeze
18:44:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 25 changes by mantaray
18:44:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tamil - 40 changes by aswn
18:44:23  <morph__> OK, thanks :)
18:44:23  <planetmaker> the page is down for ages, though
18:44:38  <morph__> I got to Google results page 15
18:44:49  <morph__> You know it doesn't exist when you get to page 2 to be honest
18:44:50  <morph__> :)
18:45:03  <planetmaker> yup
18:45:19  <planetmaker> and to my knowledge it never made it to a production-state
18:45:28  <planetmaker> or our server would use it ;-)
18:45:53  <morph__> I want ANYTHING that can help me add goal system to my server
18:45:56  <morph__> ANYTHING
18:46:14  <morph__> Im few steps from starting to code something myself
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18:46:18  <glx> just write a game script
18:46:29  <planetmaker> morph__: goals are to be made with goal scripts
18:46:32  <morph__> Do those work in multiplayer?
18:46:36  <planetmaker> of course
18:46:53  <morph__> *having an idiot moment*
18:47:10  <morph__> What about the console commands ?
18:47:19  <morph__> Like I want to implement the good old !resetme
18:47:35  <planetmaker> that's not a goal :-)
18:47:37  <morph__> I can do it with the likes of Autopilot etc. only, amirite?
18:47:39  <planetmaker> that's work for the admin port
18:47:49  <morph__> Admin port?
18:48:11  <planetmaker> did you risk a look at the documentation which is shipped with openttd?
18:48:45  <planetmaker> admin port is what is meant as the better thing in order to not need a wrapper like ap+
18:49:04  <planetmaker> I know two libraries, but no working bot connecting to the admin port
18:49:13  <planetmaker> well. a working dummy bot
18:49:23  <planetmaker> so you need to add what you actually want it to do. written in java
18:49:37  <planetmaker> called joan, also found on the devzone
18:50:21  <morph__> I will check it out
18:50:30  <morph__> Thanks
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18:51:09  <morph__> Openttd is an addiction!
18:51:21  <planetmaker> if you extend it... please consider to publish your extensions
18:52:13  <planetmaker> dihedral, should consider to release joan under the agpl instead ;-)
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19:02:29  <morph__> Please kill me - Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to
19:07:06  <Fujikurax13377> Friend has a different IPS and it worked either. He also opened port 3979. is there anything porgramvare that I can start a server that is easy?
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19:07:58  <Fujikurax13377> programvare = software
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19:35:03  <Alberth> moin
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19:38:30  <Pikka> hmm @ youtube comments
19:39:16  <Pikka> good morning Alberth
19:39:20  <Alberth> you didn't assume they'd make any sense did you :)
19:39:29  <Pikka> often they don't
19:39:31  <andythenorth> Alberth: :)
19:39:50  <andythenorth> Pikka: often for a vanishingly large definition of often
19:39:59  <andythenorth> I assume they're just bots, spamming
19:40:05  <andythenorth> can't be actual humans that thick
19:40:08  <andythenorth> I never meet any
19:40:10  <Pikka> but this one is just... possibly one of the truest and least necessary things ever said.
19:40:34  <Pikka> "Mozart > Justin Bieber"
19:40:56  <Alberth> andythenorth: websites have not yet learned how to avoid such people :p
19:40:57  <andythenorth> I suspect a small number of hackers having a game of "turing test, but goal is to fake the stupidest person on planet"
19:41:22  <andythenorth> I grew up in a very rough place with some quite stupid people, but still not as stupid as youtube
19:41:43  <andythenorth> we had the highest murder rate in the country, 4th worst place to live, but still not as stupid as youtube
19:42:10  <Alberth> so it must be really bad in the other 3 places :)
19:42:19  <andythenorth> my wife is from one of them :P
19:42:20  <andythenorth> it's very odd
19:42:36  <Pikka> whence, andythenorth?
19:42:36  <andythenorth> anyway, andythenorth had a question for Alberth but has forgotten it :o
19:42:49  <andythenorth> Pikka: my wife?  Merthyr
19:42:49  <Alberth> it'll come back
19:43:01  <Pikka> how rare
19:43:18  <andythenorth> Pikka: Mozart > Justin Bieber is at least logically sound
19:43:25  <Pikka> true
19:43:29  <andythenorth> the argument is a valid argument
19:43:31  <andythenorth> may not be true
19:43:44  <Pikka> well just how true it is is what shocks me
19:43:51  <Alberth> Mozart is probably less tall :D
19:43:59  <Pikka> certainly now, Alberth
19:44:18  <Alberth> minor detail :)
19:44:25  <Pikka> no decomposition jokes please
19:44:36  <andythenorth> oh that's the grue problem in philosophy
19:44:53  <andythenorth> can't remember it
19:44:57  <andythenorth> skipped some of that lecture
19:45:08  <andythenorth> I was present, just not...attending
19:45:18  <SpComb> it is dark
19:45:24  <andythenorth> I was physically co-located with a lecture, but not in it :P
19:45:47  <Pikka> you weren't paying attention is what you're saying, in essence.
19:46:29  <Alberth> he was paying attention to other things :p
19:47:34  <Pikka> whiskers on roses and raindrops on kittens?
19:48:00  <andythenorth> indeed
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19:49:22  * Alberth installs blender
19:49:25  <andythenorth> maybe my question was 'how do I make it go faster' :P
19:49:41  <Pikka> stick ginger up its bum, I'm told
19:50:40  <andythenorth> ImportError: No module named ginger
19:51:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: oh I remember
19:52:01  <andythenorth> you told me some things a few nights ago - but left before I could say thanks ;)
19:52:06  <andythenorth> not a question
19:52:20  <andythenorth> I'm doing those things / have committed them already
19:53:33  <Alberth> yw, and I hope you like the improvements :)
19:56:49  <andythenorth> I learnt some new python
19:56:57  <andythenorth> I need to learn how to document class properly
19:57:01  <andythenorth> my docs are a mess
19:57:53  <andythenorth> extend() was new to me ;)
19:58:17  <Alberth> you wrote the 2nd program I used it in :)
19:58:39  <andythenorth> I got a ~50% speedup this afternoon
19:59:15  <Alberth> nice :)
19:59:48  <Alberth> as for documentation, I mentioned epydoc already iirc ;)
19:59:50  <andythenorth> yes
19:59:55  <andythenorth> I just need to learn the format
20:01:27  <andythenorth> it's also time to figure out how to structure the project so it has a config file, only builds what's needed etc
20:01:37  <andythenorth> currently I have to comment things in / out of
20:01:44  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
20:02:53  <Alberth> @ivar / @type  for instance variables, @param / @type for parameters, and @return / @rtype for return values.  In the comment lines,  C{foo} is 'code' / 'constant', and  L{bar} creates a link to 'bar'
20:03:23  <andythenorth> the purpose of the link is...?
20:03:25  <Alberth> if you want to see how it looks just have epydoc generate some html for you :)
20:03:53  <andythenorth> I've seen it before - it's widely used?
20:04:07  <Alberth> links are for catching those mouse clicks :)
20:04:32  <andythenorth> oh ok link in the output
20:04:36  <Alberth> the other system is what Python itself uses, sphinx
20:05:14  <Alberth> links are also useful for saying 'this is documented elsewhere' as well
20:05:41  <Alberth> I hardly ever generate html, just the doc strings are sufficient for me
20:07:00  <Alberth> have not used sphinx much, iirc the format is a bit more free-style. I prefer a more fixed form, as it reduces the need to think about the format :p
20:07:37  <supermop> hi
20:07:45  <Alberth> hi supermop
20:07:57  <supermop> is Berlin nice in the summer?
20:08:26  <__ln__> it is
20:10:15  <andythenorth> it's fricking cold in winter
20:10:19  * andythenorth went there once
20:13:12  <Alberth> not much sea around Berlin :)
20:15:12  <supermop> i imagine that would keep it as bit too hot then
20:17:13  <__ln__> don't worry, the temperatures are a lot lower because of the Celsius scale being used rather than Fahrenheit.
20:19:34  <supermop> haha
20:20:23  <supermop> was eavesdropping on germans at lunch, and the weather was super nice today, so it made me think about visiting germany this summer
20:20:47  <supermop> berlin being the city i'd most want to visit as i've yet to see it
20:22:55  <__ln__> it is certainly a city worth visiting
20:24:22  <andythenorth> so what I can't figure whether to make each gestalt completely self-contained
20:24:33  <andythenorth> and hard code in all the input files, paths, output filenames etc
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20:24:42  <andythenorth> or whether to make them accept args
20:25:28  <andythenorth> and then how to call them with make, so multiple pixa scripts can run at once
20:26:22  <Alberth> euhm, if you use different filenames, you can run pixas in parallel whether or not they have arguments
20:27:48  <andythenorth> so I need to unconflate two things in my small brain
20:27:56  <andythenorth> (1) running in parallel
20:28:04  <andythenorth> (2) being able to have a specific script build only certain things
20:28:24  <andythenorth> both relate to reducing time for generation
20:28:44  <andythenorth> (1) is build faster... (2) is build less... :)
20:30:59  <__ln__> supermop: btw, i know a really nice hostel in Berlin.. (if a hostel is the kind of accommodation you would use)
20:32:12  <supermop> typically - not that old yet
20:33:28  <Alberth> andythenorth: using make for 2 eliminates the need to build it yourself. and it can do 1 too (somewhat limited, but sufficient for normal purposes)
20:33:56  <Alberth> the downside of using make is that you have to tell make what you want it to build
20:34:04  <andythenorth> I know :(
20:34:08  <andythenorth> and I don't know how to do that
20:34:09  <__ln__> supermop: ok, here it is:  (it's in the former american sector)
20:34:15  <andythenorth> I've read make docs before
20:34:24  <Alberth> do you have that information at all?
20:34:40  <andythenorth> I could work it out, if I knew what was needed
20:34:44  <andythenorth> compared to python multiprocessing module docs, make is opaque :P
20:34:58  <andythenorth> I even found a simple shell example to start n scripts in parallel :o
20:35:17  <Alberth> yeah, people do the strangest things :p
20:35:48  <Alberth> do you understand what is specifed in a Makefile?
20:35:54  <Alberth> *specified
20:35:58  <andythenorth> honestly, no
20:36:09  <Alberth> ok :)
20:36:16  <andythenorth> I've read the coop ones.  I understand individual lines of code
20:36:31  <andythenorth> but the total pipeline / execution / stack / whatever - no clue
20:37:58  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: what's the startup overhead of pixa?
20:39:46  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: sorry, no idea :)
20:39:52  <andythenorth> profile it?
20:39:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Naw, easier
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20:40:44  <Rhamphoryncus> Pick a moderate item (nothing too large or small), render it once (using timeit from the shell).  Then do it again, but make it render 10 times
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20:41:08  <Alberth> starting the python interpreter, and parsing/compiling the script file
20:41:40  <Rhamphoryncus> That's an option too
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20:42:14  <Alberth> but startup should be almost nothing compared to the actual work
20:43:15  <Rhamphoryncus> Test it, don't assume :)
20:44:07  <andythenorth> 'timeit', or 'time' ?
20:44:29  <Rubidium> ;)
20:44:33  <Rhamphoryncus> time, sorry
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20:46:02  <Rubidium> so you're better off with perl as that uses much fewer instructions for hello world
20:46:21  <Rubidium> factor 5-60
20:46:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: interesting, thanks :)
20:48:26  * Rubidium thinks the number of executed instructions is roughly inversely proportional with the number of written/coded instructions
20:49:19  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
20:49:20  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: so I have test results for 1 and 10 renders
20:50:55  <andythenorth> 10: real	0m15.557s
20:51:10  <andythenorth> 1: real	0m1.607s
20:51:22  <Rubidium> <10%
20:51:22  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, that's pretty good then
20:51:59  <andythenorth> I did run a profile the other day
20:52:11  <andythenorth> at a rough guess, quite a lot of time is simply spent drawing
20:52:16  <andythenorth> no way around that element
20:52:21  <Rubidium> @calc (1607-15557/10)/1607
20:52:21  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0319228375856
20:53:57  <andythenorth> hmm
20:54:06  <andythenorth> let's try the 'comment out lines' route to finding what's slow
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20:55:40  <andythenorth> :o
20:56:12  <Pikka> :O
20:56:25  <andythenorth>             for sx, sy, scol in sequence.get_recolouring(x, y, colourset): < takes 0.5s in my test case
20:56:52  <andythenorth> or roughly double the amount of time compared to that line commented out
20:57:12  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Makefile 101: A makefile contains two different kinds of information. The first kind is: File A depends on/can be created from files B, C, D. The second kind: By executing command X, a file with type .foo is transformed into a file with type .bar. Everything else is syntax details :)
20:57:28  <andythenorth> with the actual drawing commented in, time is about 1.5s
20:57:57  <Rhamphoryncus> I've gotten myself curious, so I'll see if I can provide you with a dummy makefile
20:58:23  <andythenorth> :)
20:58:33  * andythenorth is intrigued by why get_recolouring() is so slow
20:58:44  <andythenorth> quite likely I could cache what it's doing
20:59:06  <Rhamphoryncus> big question: is each job described in a separate file or are they all from a single config file?
21:00:10  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: this is unknown so far
21:00:16  <andythenorth> that's kind of my starting question :)
21:00:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Separate files is MUCH easier
21:00:34  <andythenorth> separate files makes sense
21:00:37  <Rhamphoryncus> as in C: foo.c produces foo.o
21:00:46  <andythenorth> separate files
21:03:27  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: in Java it does not make sense
21:03:56  <Rhamphoryncus> hmm?
21:04:32  <NGC3982> hm
21:04:39  <NGC3982> we have two stations
21:04:57  <NGC3982> one that recieves wheat/live, and another for the produced food
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21:05:06  <NGC3982> suddenly, the produced food appears in the wheat/live station.
21:05:15  <NGC3982> they are next to each other.
21:05:16  <NGC3982> what to do?
21:05:51  <Rhamphoryncus> You have a train/vehicle that wasn't set to only unload in the wheat/livestock station, and was capable of loading food
21:05:59  <Rhamphoryncus> So it probably wasn't refit properly either
21:06:31  <Rhamphoryncus> So start by opening the station window, click the train icon, and go through everything that goes there
21:06:45  <Rhamphoryncus> An implicit order can also do it, if another train got lost and it's not non-stop
21:07:03  <NGC3982> i see
21:07:22  <Rhamphoryncus> After you've fixed all that.. destroy the station, rebuild a new one there (ctrl-click to avoid reusing the existing one), and swap over all the orders
21:08:19  <NGC3982>
21:08:26  <NGC3982> there it is
21:08:27  <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: i see.
21:08:31  <NGC3982> bah, crikey.
21:09:13  <Rhamphoryncus> These days I tend to go through and make sure all my orders are exact, to avoid such things.  Lots more work upfront though.
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21:11:19  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: an implicit order can not cause a vehicle to go to a wrong station
21:11:36  <Rubidium> a vehicle going to a wrong station will cause an implicit order to be inserted, though
21:11:36  <Rhamphoryncus> Implicit orders are the consequence of it
21:11:52  <Rhamphoryncus> Sorry, should have been more clear about that
21:13:02  <Rhamphoryncus> If a train isn't non-stop it reports where it stops using implicit orders, which you can look for.  This applies if it's intentional and if it's lost
21:13:06  <andythenorth> :o
21:13:42  <andythenorth> @calc 4.230 - 1.897
21:13:42  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2.333
21:14:00  <andythenorth> Alberth: that's how much time is spent in get_recolouring()
21:16:14  <andythenorth> about 1s of it is spent on transforms
21:16:17  <michi_cc> andythenorth: and
21:16:53  <andythenorth> ho
21:16:54  <andythenorth> thanks
21:16:55  <michi_cc> The basic syntax is "target: source"
21:17:43  <Rhamphoryncus> There's ways to avoid listing all the filenames though
21:18:14  <Alberth>  <-- andythenorth   more explanation :D
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21:19:48  <michi_cc> Let's look at that backwards: Lines 6 and 7 tell us that gestalt_A/B.pytmpl somehow read or depend on input.png, so if is modified, those two gestalt files should be treated as modified as well.
21:20:39  <andythenorth> k
21:21:05  <michi_cc> Line 3 says: A file foobar.pytmpl can be transformed into foobar.png by executing the command "./ -o $@ $<". $@ stands for the target (so foobar.png) and $< for the first source (so foobar.pytmpl).
21:22:54  * Alberth always does  "echo $@  $<"  as a first try, or uses 'make -n'  (echo commands but do not exec)
21:23:57  <michi_cc> And the first lines tells make that in the end we want to have the files gestalt_A.png and gestalt_B.png. Make will by default create the first target it can find, so by insterting this 'dummy' line we can simply execute 'make' instead of 'make gestalt_A.png gestalt_B.png'.
21:25:05  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
21:26:45  <michi_cc> If you allow make to operate in parallel (i.e pass the -j option), it will execute the two calls concurrently.
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21:28:16  <andythenorth> k
21:28:24  <andythenorth> so...
21:28:37  <andythenorth> when generating ~3,000 pngs with auto-generated file names
21:29:13  <andythenorth> it will be interesting to set up the targets :o
21:29:35  <frosch123> the next steps are to autogenerate the nml code, to autostart a game, and to let an ai play with it :)
21:30:33  <Rhamphoryncus> 15 steps down the line we achieve singularity
21:31:00  <Alberth> frosch123: nah, a goal script to measure how fast you reach the goal, then build an optimizer loop :)
21:31:23  <frosch123> Alberth: you mean a goal script evaluating the ai?
21:31:30  <Alberth> yes
21:31:33  <michi_cc> andythenorth: The typical solution for that is a program/script that writes a file with "target: source1 source2" lines which is then included in the makefile. This is what e.g. the dep step in the makefile framework does.
21:32:31  <Alberth> andythenorth: GNU make has all kinds of text manipulation functions to construct names etc
21:32:49  <andythenorth> I might need to unpick some assumptions in my code to use these :|
21:33:14  <andythenorth> I have quite a lot of reliance on python structures to generate names
21:33:15  <Alberth> or generate a makefile, as michi said :)
21:33:38  <andythenorth> seems a bit chicken and egg :)
21:33:52  <Alberth> you only need one Makefile ;)
21:34:23  <andythenorth> I could teach pixa to optionally generate only the filenames
21:34:43  <andythenorth> also I think the output files will need to be committed to the repo
21:34:48  <Alberth> eg gcc/g++ has a -M option to generate dependencies
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21:40:33  * andythenorth reads about -M
21:42:24  <Alberth> -MM is more useful, as it does not include the system header files
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21:46:11  <Alberth>  <-- andythenorth would this work as speedup?
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21:47:29  <Alberth> good night
21:47:43  <andythenorth> bye Alberth
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21:52:00  <morph__> Working version of TCL+Expect for Autopilot+ 4.0?
21:52:15  <morph__> Im getting segmentation faults and whatnot with 8.3, 8.4, 8.5
22:01:23  <morph__> VICTORY! :D
22:01:32  <morph__> Autopilot works. Only took 2 days
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22:08:21  <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: are you sure we have to destroy the station?
22:08:35  <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: its a damn lot of trains without shared orders :(
22:08:37  <Rhamphoryncus> NGC3982: that gets it to stop delivering to that station
22:09:05  <Rhamphoryncus> That does suck
22:09:05  <NGC3982> <- as you see on the "dropoff" and the "pickup" stations.
22:09:08  <NGC3982> oh god.
22:10:17  <NGC3982> though, as i recall: if i destroy a station and quickly replace it, the material parked on it disappear, but the name remains?
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22:11:29  <Pikka> the material will remain too
22:14:56  <morph__> can't find package irc     while executing "package require irc"
22:15:03  <morph__> Any ideas? (Autopilot+)
22:15:34  <NGC3982> Pikka: we noticed :(
22:21:25  * andythenorth needs to make sleep, not war
22:21:44  <andythenorth> good and also bye
22:21:45  <Pikka> night andy
22:22:04  <planetmaker> sleep well, andy
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