Log for #openttd on 13th March 2012:
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12:09:48  <rane> do people generally play with breakdowns on or off?
12:10:43  <rane> it feels that breakdowns screw things up a bit
12:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know about "people", but i myself play generally with breakdowns off
12:17:29  <planetmaker> on the coop servers breakdowns are always off
12:21:46  <rane> did this yesterday and realized it's not very efficient when i finally started transporting the goods
12:21:48  <rane> need to l2p
12:22:48  <Rhamphoryncus> I suspect the majority turns them off
12:23:40  <Mazur> What's the use of building a good network if half the time it's clogged with broken down engines?
12:23:56  <Mazur> One can learn nothing by it.
12:24:04  <rane> yeah

12:24:16  <Rhamphoryncus> wth is with that double tunnel just left of the factory?
12:24:40  <Mazur> You never find out the real flaws or bottlenecks, because there are not trains running, and all the queues are because of breakdowns.
12:24:42  <rane> you don't like my double tunnel?
12:24:47  <rane> Mazur: good point
12:24:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, broken down engines do nothing but reduce your throughput by a large factor.  There's no nuance to managing them.
12:25:08  <Mazur> Of course it's a good point, it's my point.
12:25:12  <Rhamphoryncus> If it had a signal between tunnelheads I'd like it
12:25:12  <Mazur> :-P
12:25:57  <Rhamphoryncus> And they force you to use depots regularly, but since they're so slow you end up having legions of them
12:26:17  <MNIM> mehhh, where's the improved breakdowns?
12:26:25  <Mazur> That problem can be mitigated with Service Centres.
12:27:18  <Rhamphoryncus> Service centres, more intelligent pathing, and improved breakdowns.
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13:37:54  <Belugas> hello
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14:39:35  <dihedral> oi
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15:26:40  <planetmaker> we've a winner of the titlegame contest:
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15:27:27  <Rhamphoryncus> nice :D
15:29:17  <SpComb> +1 for that station entrance junction layout
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15:33:51  <Rhamphoryncus> 4 different directions?
15:35:07  <Rhamphoryncus> 5
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15:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> damn, forgot to vote...
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16:27:40  <evdvelde> hi all, do the towers in the game have a certain meaning? or are they just decoration that stands in the way? :)
16:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> they have the meaning that they stand in the way :p
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16:29:10  <evdvelde> Eddi|zuHause: oh funny, mock me :(
16:29:11  <evdvelde> ;)
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16:30:23  <evdvelde> some cities keep finding me appaling, even though i have done advertising campains, planted trees and my businesses there get a good rating, how can i fix this? feels like a bug, but it could be my mistake too :)
16:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> advertising campaign doesn't change town rating
16:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> planting trees only helps on tiles that didn't have a tree before
16:31:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "good service" is irrelevant, "frequent service" is important
16:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. don't have a station that is rarely visited, only have stations that are visited often
16:31:54  <evdvelde> there was also mentioned bribing somewhere in the wiki, but cant find that
16:32:06  <Eddi|zuHause> "visited" means "at least one piece of cargo loaded or unloaded"
16:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that has to be enabled in advanced settings
16:32:27  <evdvelde> i was going to open a station that was going to be visited often, but they deny me to :)
16:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> rule #1: first build station, then build infrastructure
16:32:50  <evdvelde> and it does not get better over time it seems, so there is nothing i can do?
16:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> rule #2: first build bus service, then build train station
16:33:11  <evdvelde> and go more slowly probably
16:33:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a significant number of bus stations, that are visited regularly, then the rating is up in no time
16:36:06  <evdvelde> ah, thx, that will help Eddi|zuHause
16:36:57  <Rhamphoryncus> I'll quite often throw a pair of bus depots in every town I'm building near, just to make sure it never becomes an issue
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16:37:14  <Rhamphoryncus> Lately I've been trying mail instead, since that should require less service
16:37:43  <evdvelde> Rhamphoryncus: how do you mean less service Rhamphoryncus
16:37:59  <evdvelde> I tend to let my busses and trucks take care of themselves :)
16:38:20  <Rhamphoryncus> Less volume so as the town grows I won't need to add as many more
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16:48:56  <evdvelde> i have to say that i like not only the game but also the community :)
16:49:39  <evdvelde> many friendly people around here
16:51:57  <planetmaker> you haven't yet met the grumpy part :-P
16:52:52  <evdvelde> so i dare to ask one last question for today :-) is there a way to automate servicing/replacing better? especially replacing is inconvenient with many buses etc
16:53:06  <evdvelde> planetmaker: i'll try to keep it that way then :D
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16:53:27  <planetmaker> there's an autoreplace feature.
16:53:34  <planetmaker> and autorenew
16:53:56  <planetmaker> Servicing is done automatically, if depots are available. Or done as you order, if you include at least one depot order in the order list
16:54:15  <planetmaker> but then it's only done at the time where the schedule tells the vehicle to service
16:54:38  <planetmaker> and autorenew respectively
16:54:56  <evdvelde> so autorenew is an option i just have enable in the advanced game options? i encountered that, i think
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16:55:29  <planetmaker> no. In the vehicle list
16:55:55  <planetmaker> well, see the wiki page. It illustrates it
16:55:58  <evdvelde> ah... i see... thanks a lot!
16:57:30  <evdvelde> it is autorenew that is an option :)
16:58:24  <planetmaker> ah, yes
16:58:33  <planetmaker> too similar words ;-)
17:01:38  <andythenorth> maybe auto-replace and auto-renew should be merged
17:02:01  <planetmaker> yes
17:02:25  <planetmaker> @seen someone
17:02:25  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 21 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 23 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
17:02:30  <planetmaker> old slacker him
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17:05:29  <andythenorth> maybe everything in that area is just consist management
17:08:17  <evdvelde> i would prefer to have a lot of automated management, allowing me to do macromanagement and building mostly
17:11:10  <planetmaker> I tend to agree, andythenorth
17:11:25  <planetmaker> evdvelde, isn't that macro-management?
17:11:35  <planetmaker> You select a global replacement rule for all your vehicles?
17:12:06  <evdvelde> planetmaker: yes, that is one of the things i have just found out indeed and i love it :)
17:12:15  <andythenorth> or vehicles in arbitrary groups
17:12:54  <planetmaker> yup
17:13:12  <andythenorth> seems so simple
17:13:20  <rane> does coal mine produce more stuff over time if you maintain a high transported percentage? because this coal mine has 500t which is quite a lot
17:13:22  <andythenorth> shall we code it for 2.0?
17:14:23  <andythenorth> hmm.  This baby is *very* loud
17:14:26  <evdvelde> the grouping thing would be great too :) especially if you want e.g. to upgrade one part of your network to monorail first
17:16:03  <andythenorth> planetmaker: does TTDP have consists?
17:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> rane: basically, yes
17:16:15  <planetmaker> rane, the max. is about 2000t / month
17:16:33  <rane> what are some tricks to be efficient
17:16:40  <rane> i try to have a train loading all the time
17:16:45  <planetmaker> that suffices
17:17:21  <planetmaker> it's a random walk with about 2/3 chance to go up, if your transported % is > 60%
17:17:30  <andythenorth> if the goal for 2.0 is to merge TTDP into OTTD, then consists might not be allowed yet
17:17:54  <planetmaker> nah, the goal for 2.0 is a web app :-P
17:18:09  <evdvelde> i saw there is even an android app :)
17:18:14  <MNIM> oh, I thought the goal for 2.0 was virtual reality?
17:18:21  <planetmaker> yes, also
17:18:26  <evdvelde> but there the screenie is a bit too small :D
17:18:32  <planetmaker> though it might be post-poned to 3.0 ;-)
17:18:33  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: by the time that gets out, we already have web 3.0 :p
17:18:50  <MNIM> exactly :P
17:18:56  <andythenorth> no no, the goal for 2.0 is merging in TTDP, that has now been decided
17:19:03  <andythenorth> as it it causing big issues in the community
17:19:07  <evdvelde> what about better gfx first? i like old school, but it is, well... very old school ;)
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17:19:17  <andythenorth> and lack of merged in TTD makes developing newgrfs very hard
17:19:19  <planetmaker> evdvelde, yes... get drawing!
17:19:24  <planetmaker> (or modelling)
17:19:34  <planetmaker> I even pledge to code
17:19:58  <evdvelde> perhaps i'll start coding, drawing is not my strong suit anyhow
17:20:00  <MNIM> andythenorth: in relation to your earlier comment about loud babies, that means they either need food, clean diapers or mommy. all three is good too, of course
17:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there won't be a 2.0... we go 1.3, 1.4, ... and then decide to drop the 1, and go 5.0, 6.0, ...
17:20:52  <planetmaker> that'd be FireTTD
17:22:58  <Rubidium> andythenorth: but there'll never be a merged TTD
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17:23:14  <Rubidium> there'll always be something OpenTTD doesn't/can't do what TTDPatch can
17:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> unifiedmaglev!!
17:23:28  <MNIM> why don't you just adopt a ubuntu-like release schedule? make a new version every (half) year or so, what you've got a month before the deadline is your beta, then you make it stable.
17:23:29  <rane> continuing on what i just asked, does this mean that it's worthwhile to transport stuff from even quite low production industries in hopes to increase it?
17:23:44  <MNIM> without ubuntu's silly shenanigans of course.
17:23:55  <Rubidium> MNIM: we have an ubuntu like release schedule
17:23:57  <MNIM> please no unity or 'long term support' betas :P
17:24:11  <Rubidium> just it's a 12 month cycle
17:24:15  <MNIM> oh, I thought you didn't have a fixed schedule
17:24:34  <MNIM> then, disregard that, I am a dog.
17:24:38  * MNIM barks.
17:24:42  <Rubidium> well, it's not 100% fixed
17:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> we don't. it's just coincidence that our versions were released on the same date every year
17:24:48  <Rubidium> but neither is Ubuntu's
17:24:50  <MNIM> lol
17:25:00  <MNIM> well, it's the intention, at least
17:25:27  <Rubidium> Ubuntu's release dates are actually less predictable than ours
17:25:51  <Rubidium> anyhow, DD was two months late
17:26:00  <andythenorth> we ship on time :)
17:26:02  <planetmaker> it's imho a good thing to have a reasonably fast cycle. Slower than one year is... not nice or wouldn't be nice given the amount of things that change
17:26:03  * andythenorth doesn't :P
17:26:44  * andythenorth has just moved a commercial software from 1 year releases to monthly
17:26:50  <andythenorth> too early to tell if that was dumb
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17:26:55  <Rubidium> oh bugger... an OSX bug at the top of the bug list again :(
17:27:03  <planetmaker> monthly releases?
17:27:09  <andythenorth> 12x the deployment work, 12x the client management hassle
17:27:21  <andythenorth> but newer features for clients sooner
17:28:24  <MNIM> Rubidium: I take it you can't just drop OSX alltogether and tell people to use WINE or whatsthatstuffonappleagain?
17:28:37  <andythenorth> you could
17:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: we did that
17:29:19  <Rubidium> MNIM: problem is that not making OSX binaries gives even more whining :(
17:29:21  <planetmaker> MNIM, and what's the gain?
17:29:37  <planetmaker> I guess I might w(h)ine :-P
17:29:40  <Rubidium> planetmaker: not releasing something with known crasher bugs
17:30:02  <planetmaker> we don't support 10.6 officially anyway ;-)
17:30:32  <Rubidium> yeah, lets start closing everything that's using an unsupported version
17:30:43  <planetmaker> :-D
17:32:00  <MNIM> stop putting up the osx release next to the other releases on the main site but hide them in the forum below a big post about how you should not be posting bug reports about it.
17:32:13  <planetmaker> not helpful, MNIM
17:32:36  <Rubidium> MNIM: then you'll have (almost) daily posts all over the forum where to find it
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17:33:33  <Rubidium> for some reason I've got the feeling that a significant (or at least very vocal) part of OSX users are worse at using the search than others
17:34:17  <MNIM> give it a splash screen on startup with a scrollable text with an ok button at the bottom
17:34:35  <Rubidium> MNIM: great idea... just code and test it please
17:34:51  * planetmaker would also put that into a special release for MNIM
17:34:59  <MNIM> D:
17:35:03  <MNIM> coding scares me.
17:35:06  <FLHerne> Have you considered supporting Mac OS 7? :P
17:35:12  <planetmaker> FLHerne, yes
17:35:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Change the download patch to be a warning first.  "We don't have any active maintainers for OSX.  Don't bother posting bugs unless you're volunteering to fix them.
17:35:27  <planetmaker> But I decided it's more work than OSX 10.7 ;-)
17:35:44  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, also that's not helpful
17:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "Former vice president Dick Cheney cancelled an appearance in Toronto for fear of 'violent protests'"
17:35:55  <planetmaker> Knowing about the bugs IS helpful
17:36:08  <evdvelde> oh one more thing... you dont get a pop up when a town gives a subsidy, do you?
17:36:09  <Rhamphoryncus> I can't tell which comments are serious and which aren't :)
17:36:19  <Rubidium> problem is that NOBODY cared about fixing Mac OS X for the last half year, besides fixing compile errors on the compile farm
17:36:33  * planetmaker feels guilty
17:36:42  <FLHerne> planetmaker - Yes, but I have 7.6 and not 10.7. Therefore you must support 7.6 first :D
17:36:52  <evdvelde> planetmaker: who cares about osx anyway, right? ;)
17:36:57  <MNIM> evdvelde: depends on your message settings, but it should in default, as far as Im aware.
17:37:05  <Rubidium> and then there was a slight spur of trying to get it to somewhat not crash/fail immediately on 10.7, and then again a long void of nothingness
17:37:14  <planetmaker> evdvelde, let's say: I'd not play the game if it were not available thereon ;-)
17:37:20  <planetmaker> nor would I be here right now
17:38:10  <planetmaker> It still has a lot of deprecation warnings if linked directly to 10.7, too
17:38:33  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: sounds like a toned down message at the download screen WOULD be helpful.  Put the emphasis on wanting a volunteer to maintain it, rather than discouraging bugs.
17:38:36  <Rubidium> that is: working on OSX: sept 2011, dec 2010
17:38:54  <evdvelde> planetmaker: woops :)
17:39:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Which serves to advertise the need to everybody that wants to use it on OSX
17:39:55  <Rubidium> and there's a message on the front page for a very long time asking for help with OSX... result: nothing
17:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you can safely ignore deprecation warnings.
17:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: until 10.8 :p
17:40:08  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes and no. ^^
17:40:09  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:40:14  <planetmaker> that's the whole point
17:40:41  <planetmaker> and obviously the full screen stuff works quite differently on 10.7. Thus... doesn't quite work in its current implementation
17:41:05  <planetmaker> it's yet another completely new API for that
17:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that will have a gpl-incompatible app-store and only allow signed programs, so there's no need to "support" it anyomre :p
17:41:21  <planetmaker> that indeed might be true
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17:42:43  <Rubidium> so is that the third or fourth different video backend API in 4 releases?
17:42:45  <planetmaker> my main issue with fixing stuff is that it depends so incredibly much on the hardware. Many bugs happen on some but not on others...
17:42:54  <planetmaker> That's something I don't quite know how to test
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17:43:17  <Rubidium> which basically means that OSX does not abstract hardware properly
17:43:32  <Rubidium> or that their drivers simply suck
17:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yay for the benefit of reduced types of hardware for osx systems
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17:44:18  <planetmaker> They do... I have other programmes which crash somewhere deep in CoreAudio...
17:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> they basically missed 20 years of hardware abstraction layers
17:45:22  <Eddi|zuHause> oh i miss the days when the first thing you did when installing a game was searching the setup for your graphics and sound card :p
17:46:28  <MNIM> I used to have a book for one old windows 3.11 PC that served that purpose, I think :P
17:47:19  <planetmaker> in any case, my decision kinda is to spend time on trying to improve the base graphics or the mac port
17:47:44  <planetmaker> tbh, I have and had the feeling that last year my time was better spent on the base graphics
17:48:15  <planetmaker> thus that's what I mostly did
17:50:13  <planetmaker> it also feels more rewarding. As at least a few people care. But indeed non about the macport
17:50:40  <planetmaker> which always only incurs negative feedback.
17:50:45  <planetmaker> Which is bad karma
17:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you mean karma
17:51:39  <planetmaker> oh, I did. Though it doesn't fit ;-)
17:55:13  <Rubidium> the OSX port has always been plagued with issues
17:55:24  <Rubidium> not sure what the actual cause is
17:56:13  <Rubidium> though given the number of i* apps, there should be plenty of developers familiar with OSX
17:56:50  <Rubidium> and Macs used to be for hippies, just like open source people are somewhat hippie-ish as well
17:57:03  <Rubidium> so where is the mismatch?
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17:58:08  <Rubidium> or is developing on OSX such a drama that you only do it once you get paid?
17:59:02  <planetmaker> I don't have the feeling that it is more of a drama than other OS' device SDKs
17:59:33  <planetmaker> One of the issues here indeed seems to be that the underlying foundations change at a much faster pace than on windoze and linux
17:59:45  <planetmaker> Thus you'll have to rewrite part of the OS layer each year
17:59:57  <planetmaker> None of that is necessary in this extend for linux and windows
18:00:13  <andythenorth> same reason I'm not developing children's games to sell on iOS :P
18:00:16  <planetmaker> Thus, of course, the amount of bugs due to these changes increases at least proportionally
18:00:19  <andythenorth> apple will shaft you at no warning
18:01:24  <Rubidium> it's disruptive for no real reason
18:01:47  <planetmaker> there's an incredible amount of #if OSX_VERSION_AT_LEAST(a,b,c) ... #endif
18:01:52  <glx> planetmaker: on windows you can still use win9x way for most things
18:01:58  <planetmaker> exactly
18:02:15  <planetmaker> while the 10.3 framework is inaccessible to at least 50% in 10.7
18:02:23  <SpComb> ifdef is your friend
18:02:45  <SpComb> couldn't you just shift off all the compatibility issues to SDL or something?
18:02:52  <andythenorth> hmm
18:03:08  <planetmaker> yes. If the SDL port on OSX wouldn't have its own very bad issues
18:03:15  <Rubidium> SpComb: SDL fails majorly on OSX
18:03:15  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:03:23  <planetmaker> yes, you can compile an SDL version on OSX
18:03:31  <planetmaker> It works... to some extent
18:03:59  <planetmaker> Rubidium, it actually *might* have gotten a bit better, though I didn't test properly
18:04:00  *** lmergen [] has joined #openttd
18:04:01  <Rubidium> as long as you like not using palettes IIRC
18:04:17  <Rubidium> and IIRC it was significantly slower as well
18:04:23  <planetmaker> that indeed
18:04:33  <planetmaker> which also is the reason on windows to use GDI
18:05:26  * andythenorth doesn't have AI crash on 10.6.8
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18:06:02  <planetmaker> yeah... it's another of those "it crashes" (but I don't tell you how nor provide more info) reports
18:06:23  <andythenorth> I read the crash log, means nothing to me
18:06:30  <planetmaker> oh, he posted one?
18:06:38  <andythenorth> yup
18:06:58  <Rubidium> useless...
18:07:07  <planetmaker> yes
18:07:11  <Rubidium> you've been thrown under the bus
18:07:30  <planetmaker> sounds like invalid read somewhere...
18:07:34  * andythenorth never has any OS X issues
18:07:36  <andythenorth> which is bully for me
18:07:39  <andythenorth> :P
18:07:51  <andythenorth> you can guess I'd mention it if I did :P
18:08:22  <andythenorth> I didn't test with 1.1.5 stable though
18:08:28  <Rubidium> looks like 4689
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18:09:11  <Alberth> efenink
18:09:22  <planetmaker> good point, Rubidium
18:09:26  <planetmaker> hello Alberth
18:09:44  <Rubidium> having said that, it might be something *completly* else
18:11:30  <andythenorth> oh yeah, I can replicate 4689 btw ;)
18:11:46  * andythenorth never uses full screen mode, totally slows down development :P
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18:16:36  <andythenorth> Alberth: ;)
18:19:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth, indeed. And even then... it makes switching to other things sooo tedious.
18:19:47  <planetmaker> And even when I play. Then all other com channels would be blocked.
18:19:53  <planetmaker> which'd be bad, too
18:20:05  <andythenorth> is it acceptable to lock out features on some platforms?
18:20:24  <planetmaker> it's done...
18:20:30  <planetmaker> but not nice
18:20:36  <andythenorth> not productive long term either
18:20:42  <planetmaker> yep
18:20:47  <andythenorth> just incurring variation which incurs support and technical debt
18:20:53  <andythenorth> variation => bad
18:21:34  <andythenorth> but crashes => bad
18:22:36  <Terkhen> hello
18:22:54  <andythenorth> o/
18:24:54  * Rubidium is sad that base graphics downloading is not working for OSX
18:25:02  <andythenorth> that is sad
18:25:20  <Rubidium> as OSX is the only platform for which the prefered way of installing does not provide graphics
18:25:23  <andythenorth> I could try to fix these things, but I'd be so out of my depth...
18:25:35  <andythenorth> it would become 'other people code, andy types it into his mac'
18:26:06  <Rubidium> although... OpenTTD installation on OSX isn't done by the prefered way anyhow
18:26:17  <planetmaker> what's the preferred way?
18:26:32  <Rubidium> double click on dmg I'd say
18:26:34  <andythenorth> hg clone, make run -j13 :P
18:26:56  <Rubidium> instead of unzipping some file and then doing something with it
18:27:22  <planetmaker> I'd say the 'preferred' way is to download something, click it, get a window which tells you to drag something inside it to the Application folder. And then be done
18:27:40  <andythenorth> how much is a used mac anyway?
18:27:57  <Rubidium> too many sanity points for me
18:28:24  <Rubidium> 50 euros
18:29:08  <planetmaker> well. Either people hate mac. Or they love it. Usually. There's only very few who are not emotional there
18:29:10  <Rubidium> with OS 6
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18:29:27  <andythenorth> the answer is 'way too much' :P
18:29:44  <andythenorth> I'm selling this mac and getting a new one if ebay is any guide
18:29:59  <andythenorth> I lose £200 on it
18:30:18  <Rubidium> a G5 still costs 250 euro?
18:30:42  <andythenorth> dunno
18:30:57  <andythenorth> we've got a dual G5 in our office somewhere, and some flat panel imacs
18:31:26  <FLHerne> They're quite expensive. I was thinking of buying one, but I don't have the money
18:32:06  <andythenorth> sell mine for £950, buy the newest for £1150 :P
18:32:19  <andythenorth> but will it run ottd faster? :P
18:32:24  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: fullscreen mode is broken for me.  If I drag the map the mouse hits the edge and stops
18:33:09  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: which bug is that on the tracker?
18:33:20  <Alberth> andythenorth: lol, the license file is bigger than the source code :p
18:33:21  <Rhamphoryncus> boo :)
18:33:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: :)
18:33:49  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: I can't replicate that
18:34:02  <Rhamphoryncus> I'll report it after I've finished writing up my current patch.  It's much more interesting *g*
18:34:29  <andythenorth> although it did screw with my crazy 'adjust monitor to room light settings' app
18:34:36  <andythenorth> my screen is now totally orange
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18:35:32  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
18:36:00  <andythenorth> Alberth: pixa would benefit from bettter layout, possibly splitting code (might be overkill), and....I need to document it :|
18:36:16  <andythenorth> but otherwise I met all the use cases I had
18:36:30  <andythenorth> biab
18:36:32  <andythenorth> bath time
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18:40:30  <Alberth> that's quick :p
18:42:47  <andythenorth> he's refusing to clean his teeth unless I make choo choos in ottd
18:42:51  <andythenorth> this is not good
18:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably your own fault :p
18:43:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24027 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt czech.txt latvian.txt ukrainian.txt):
18:43:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:43:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 10 changes by VoyagerOne
18:43:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Eskymak
18:43:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 4 changes by Parastais
18:43:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 1 changes by edd_k
18:43:50  <Rhamphoryncus> There we go.  Be happy it's not animated :D,%202316-12-02.png
18:44:04  * NGC3982 feels alone in ursa major
18:44:11  * NGC3982 asks planetmaker to make a new system.
18:46:35  <Alberth> andythenorth: some examples and/or a regression test would be useful too :)
18:46:59  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium, andythenorth: wtf, I just tried scrolling in fullscreen and it worked fine.  :P  Did that code get any attention in the last month or so?
18:47:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: +1
18:47:07  <andythenorth> hmm
18:47:11  <andythenorth> he's learnt to say 'plane'
18:47:37  <andythenorth> my pixa time is limited now, I had two weeks holiday, but now I have to work 9am-10pm daily
18:48:07  <Rhamphoryncus> 13 hours?  :O
18:48:19  <Alberth> that's a bad trade :(
18:48:42  <andythenorth> I have ~4 hours off in the middle to do kid stuff
18:48:45  <andythenorth> could be worse
18:48:54  <andythenorth> but not much python coding time :(
18:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you should work 9pm-10pm
18:49:10  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is a nice idea :)
18:49:18  <Rhamphoryncus> ahhh, 9 hours with a 4 hour break in the middle
18:49:19  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: we'd all like that :)
18:49:38  * NGC3982 sings a shakespearian tune on being a lony spiral galaxy.
18:49:44  <Eddi|zuHause> 9h is still quite a long working day
18:49:48  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: 13 with break == 9 hours without
18:50:03  <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: I believe I said that ;)
18:50:19  <Eddi|zuHause> from the "average" job i'd expect 7h + 1h break
18:50:24  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: I read it otherwise :)
18:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: your statement was ambiguous
18:51:01  * Rhamphoryncus throws peanuts
18:51:32  * Belugas reaches out from the depths and snaps on the peanuts
18:51:38  * Rhamphoryncus also straps Eddi in front of his seizure inducer
18:51:42  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a Rama-Forunkel anyway?
18:52:13  <Alberth> Belugas: be quick, or andy's kid eats them all
18:52:25  <Rhamphoryncus>
18:52:48  <Belugas> :)
18:52:56  <Belugas> hi sir Alberth :)
18:53:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Belugas: you only need to get the ones that land high up.  Kids are quite happy to eat peanuts off the floor and behind the couch.
18:53:57  <Belugas> urgh... mine takes them from the bag only...
18:54:03  <Belugas> and gives me those from the floor
18:54:06  <Rhamphoryncus> lol
18:57:09  * andythenorth has been learning just how much previously chewed food he will eat
18:57:14  <andythenorth> > a bit
18:57:20  <andythenorth> < all
18:57:45  <andythenorth> cheese is definitely acceptable, and chocolate, and melon
18:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> not a thought i typically have...
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19:02:37  <andythenorth> you have cats?  passably close...
19:04:26  *** Noldo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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19:35:32  <Rhamphoryncus> As opposed to dogs who'll eat anything
19:38:08  <Alberth> andythenorth: PixaImageLoader  self.mask does not seem used
19:38:40  <andythenorth> I thought BANDIT used it :o
19:39:23  <Alberth> neither is self.origin
19:39:30  <andythenorth> L75 in
19:39:33  <andythenorth> (for mask)
19:40:36  <andythenorth> I have an odd pattern where I 'parent' an options object to the PixaImageLoader obj
19:40:47  <andythenorth> I'm sure there's a better way, it was duck tape
19:42:28  <Alberth> that's setting it; I was talking about use :p line 254  self.mask = mask   is the only place where self.mask is mentioned
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19:43:03  <andythenorth> possibly I did bad :o
19:44:03  <Alberth> test whether make_points gets new values for mask & origin?
19:44:31  <andythenorth> I'll have to add this to my TODO :)
19:44:39  * Alberth fixes it :)
19:44:50  <andythenorth> thanks
19:44:59  <andythenorth> you should see the worse thing I did :)
19:45:25  <andythenorth> this makes a dep list out of nfo
19:45:26  <andythenorth>
19:45:36  <andythenorth> it's insanely faster than nmlc for the same task
19:46:25  <andythenorth> I figured wrt generating png filenames, the grf should just encode what it expects to see, then I parse that
19:46:36  <Alberth> len(line.split('.png'))   <--  '.png' in line    ?
19:46:50  <andythenorth> yup
19:46:51  <andythenorth> the first time the grf tries to compile, it explodes due to missing pngs :)
19:46:51  <Alberth> oh, '> 1' is missing
19:47:02  <andythenorth> that code is so dirty I'm proud
19:47:04  <andythenorth> and it works...
19:48:19  <Alberth> I never got why you'd check for deps at all
19:50:06  <Alberth> you know that graphics_results is always empty, right?
19:50:29  <Alberth> ie line 22 is a 'pass' :)
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19:59:50  * Rhamphoryncus grimaces at ViewportSign::MarkDirty
20:00:22  <Rhamphoryncus> When tracing through a bug you really hate to find out it was justified :(
20:01:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, I ran into some issues with L22
20:01:36  <andythenorth> none of my nfo has pngs with 'cargo' in the name yet, so I stopped writing the script ;)
20:04:24  * Alberth deletes _PixaImageLoaderOptions
20:05:27  <andythenorth> no need for that class?
20:05:41  <Alberth>
20:05:50  <andythenorth> I found I got more done when I stopped worrying so much about doing it right :)
20:05:51  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05:52  <Alberth> not any more, I think
20:06:14  <andythenorth> I'll just apply the patch...and run the tests
20:06:18  <andythenorth> oh, no test :(
20:06:31  <Alberth> yep :p
20:07:56  <Alberth> I also ran all tests. They passed trivially ;)
20:08:12  <andythenorth> well BANDIT built it
20:08:46  <andythenorth> appears to work ;)
20:13:52  <Alberth> basically, my two added if x is None: x = self.x     do the same as the class :)
20:15:24  <Alberth> euhm, that should be 3 cases, the crop_box should be there too
20:16:12  <Alberth> phew, it is :)
20:17:49  <andythenorth> :)
20:18:20  <andythenorth> r14
20:21:27  <Alberth> hg qnew r14.patch  :p
20:23:16  <frosch123> "soon" has an interesting meaning on the internet
20:29:30  <Alberth> you could write a thesis on it :)
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20:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i create the .png deps in my generator script, i.e. _before_ creating the nml
20:33:34  <andythenorth> output them from there then :)
20:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:33:55  <andythenorth> I can't quite do that, I'm writing them directly into nml with my template module
20:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i did that months ago
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20:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i could try to load nmlc as a module and push the parse tree into it, instead of writing the nml
20:35:34  <Eddi|zuHause> or i could write out NFO :p
20:35:39  <andythenorth> ugh
20:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc spends 70 seconds just parsing the cets.nml file
20:36:15  <andythenorth> do you have many redundant lines of code, e.g. switches not called or such?
20:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:39:59  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's generated, of course it is 99% redundant
20:40:34  <frosch123> try to compress it, and look how small it becomes :p
20:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> something around the size of the generator, i presume :p
20:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> gzip makes it from 12.5MB to 0.5MB
20:45:30  <frosch123> only factor 25. hmm, that is less redundant than i expected
20:45:30  <Eddi|zuHause> looked at the wrong line, 8.3MB
20:45:55  <frosch123> 12.5->8.3 or 8.3->0.5? :p
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20:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> 8.3->0.5
20:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> xz makes it 0.25
20:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> we have 83kB in .py files and 200kB in .pnml files
20:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the table is 164kB
20:59:58  <frosch123> :)
21:00:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so my initial guess of "roughly the size of the generator" hold
21:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no wait, misread again, 20kB in .pnml files
21:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> overall something around 3.5kloc
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22:29:52  * Pikka greebling the A-Train :D
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22:32:49  * andythenorth trying to reduce 286 outstanding tickets to <200 then go to bed :P
22:33:04  <andythenorth> I don't actually have to code for them, just move them around :P
22:33:04  <Pikka> good luck bob :D
22:34:13  <andythenorth> 203
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22:37:16  <frosch123> night
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22:38:03  <andythenorth> 199
22:38:06  <andythenorth> bed time
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23:08:20  <Terkhen> good night
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