Log for #openttd on 16th March 2012:
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01:01:02  <Maoman> Hey everyone. I'm new to the forums with a question about train efficiency. I actually posted a topic on the forums, but I didn't notice the chat function until after I posted it.
01:01:37  <Maoman> Hopefully everyone isn't just afk. :/
01:05:30  <Maoman> I've been browsing the wiki (mainly) and a bit on the forums to try and find a list of different ways to merge multiple train lines together, like the lists for stations ( and junctions (which is spread over multiple pages). Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any. Out of room...
01:05:46  <Maoman> Before I continue, i'll ask: IS there such a list of ways to merge multiple lines efficiently?
01:07:44  <planetmaker> <-- maybe you find some interesting stuff there, Maoman
01:08:54  <Maoman> >:I Hit the wrong damn key and refreshed the page. Can I have that link again? Sorry.
01:09:48  <planetmaker> <-- maybe you find some interesting stuff there, Maoman
01:10:22  <Maoman> Thanks, I'll look around there for a bit
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01:11:52  <planetmaker> you also may find interesting to look at some of the savegames in the public server archive found on that page
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01:15:42  <Maoman> Alrighty. My main issue right now is trying to get multiple lanes (six or so), each with 2 or 3 trains each (starting small) to go smoothly into a hub station, so i don't need dedicated stations for each and every line, at the hub (six trains, six stations, etc?)
01:19:04  <Maoman> :/ All these merges are wayyy bigger than anything I can do, yet. As such, the screenshots make little sense to me.
01:20:02  <planetmaker> the get some games form the public server archive. Have a look at them. Play around with the designs
01:20:13  <planetmaker> join servers. play. Look how others do stuff
01:20:17  <planetmaker> experiment
01:20:36  <planetmaker> I'm biased, but I'll recommend the #openttdcoop welcome server
01:21:05  <Maoman> I haven't tried any kind of multiplayer. Tycoon games have always been a single player thing to me, so when I heard about multiplayer in openttd, it kinda put me off. lol
01:21:38  <planetmaker> well. That's where the _coop_ part can come in :-P
01:22:06  <Maoman> True. Thanks for your help
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01:27:27  <Ricaz> It feels like - in a 'competitive' game - that the first company to establish tons of airports is the one to quickly take a massive lead.
01:27:39  <Ricaz> (I only just started playing this game today)
01:33:09  <planetmaker> unless planes are forbidden, limited, not yet available or prohibitively expensive
01:34:16  <Ricaz> We've been running for about 30 years soon, and my company has an income of about .000.000 because of planes ._.
01:36:57  <planetmaker> oh, and depends on the aircraft newgrf used (if any)
01:37:11  <planetmaker> and airport newgrf (if any)
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01:37:23  <planetmaker> and the infrastructure maintenance costs for airports (if any)
01:37:27  <Maoman> lol make a couple air ports and send a train all the way across the map, and you're gold.
01:37:38  <planetmaker> thus: complain to your host, Ricaz
01:37:53  <planetmaker> Maoman: yes. usually
01:38:37  <Pikka> it's also about town growth, but I usually get ignored or shushed when I say that :)
01:39:04  * planetmaker hugs Pikka
01:39:46  <Pikka> hello planetmaker
01:39:53  <Pikka> what's cookin'?
01:40:12  <planetmaker> a night with little sleep it seems ;-)
01:40:23  <Pikka> what watch?
01:41:36  <planetmaker> my clock tells me it's about 2:43
01:41:42  <Pikka> such watch!
01:42:00  <planetmaker> maybe even a swatch
01:42:28  <Pikka>
01:43:11  <Maoman> People never seem to know about the Swatch's Croatian brother
01:43:22  <planetmaker> oh, I fear I have a gap in my education there
01:45:25  <planetmaker> but I see you enjoy excitement journeys through the English language "varieties" ;-)
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02:04:57  <Maoman> After trying several saves that all told me they wouldn't work, for various reasons, I found one that loaded, but the trains never move, they just stay in the same spot, reversing direction rapidly.
02:10:04  <planetmaker> which?
02:10:56  <Maoman> One of the really old games, number 10.
02:11:14  <Maoman> Any newer ones tell me files are missing, and online content can't seem to find the files
02:24:32  <planetmaker> hm, not all files are in the online content, indeed
02:24:58  <planetmaker> (Version 8.0)
02:25:45  <planetmaker> but which of the games do you mean (they all have a direct link)
02:30:10  <Maoman> Heres the link
02:30:30  <Maoman> I figured saying "number 10" was enough. lol
02:31:38  <Maoman> And I had already tried installing that file you linked to. It doesn't seem to make a difference, but then, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm doing something wrong. Took me like half an hour to figure out how to install the 32bpp mod.
02:43:39  <planetmaker> well. The 32bpp (as in 1.1.x) is also ... not user friendly. That zip file just needs unpacking. in the data folder of openttd. that's all
02:48:52  <Maoman> That's what I did, and It didn't seem to help. :s
02:50:11  <Maoman> Game number 19 ( almost works.... some of the trains work, some of them still sit there in the same spot, reversing direction rapidly. All other vehicles work.
02:57:15  <planetmaker> I really suggest to rather use the newer saves...
02:57:40  <planetmaker> and there seem to be jams in some
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03:25:00  <Pikka> mmm, jam
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10:30:26  <Carlos> hi, does anyone know if chill's patch pack will be made ready for r24xxx ?
10:30:44  <Carlos> the most recent version seems to be for r22555 or something
10:40:41  <Pikka> I imagine it will be updated at some point, Carlos
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10:44:39  <Carlos> thanks, would be nice to have the full pack ready again
10:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine it either gets updated or dies in the next few months
10:47:21  <Carlos> cargodist and the current trunk might be running away faster than the patchpack can keep up, right ?
10:47:30  <MNIM> the latter would be really sad.
10:48:20  <Ammler> cargodist? is that sill maintained?
10:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> my estimate is that, if Chill has enough time on its hand, he will throw everything away, and start over with a new set of patches
10:48:49  <Carlos> i tried to apply it to a r24xxx but there where a lot of failed hunks, including completely missing or redundant source files
10:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cargodist is still actively developed
10:49:16  <Ammler> so it "survived" yacd :-)
10:49:17  <Carlos> cargodist is the most important piece of the pack anyway, imo
10:49:36  <Carlos> is there a big difference between cargodist and yacd ?
10:50:13  <Ammler> yacd was "stable"
10:50:57  <Pikka> stables are for horses, I say
10:51:19  <Carlos> ah I just read it, yacd is for cargo with specific destinations
10:51:20  <Ammler> but the gameplay difference was that yacd was indpendent from network
10:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause> each one has its own shortcomings. they had fundamental design differences
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10:57:09  <Carlos> need to go, thanks for the info
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11:44:34  <fonsinchen> Yes, I'm still working on cargodist.
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11:45:05  <V453000> been a while o_O
11:45:17  <fonsinchen> And I think the approach with "offline" calculation of the routing scheme is actually better than YACD's "inline" routing.
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11:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i do think that a mixture between "industry-based" and "network-based" destinations would be preferable
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11:46:44  <fonsinchen> How would you mix those concepts?
11:47:50  <Eddi|zuHause> like YACD did, drop (a part of) the production if the predetermined destination is not connected
11:47:52  <fonsinchen> It's been a while since I wrote anything here, but I was on IRC sometimes.
11:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause> better spend your time developing, not talking on irc :p
11:49:14  <fonsinchen> That wouldn't be a mix, but the "industry-based" approach ...
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11:49:19  <Ammler> but he first needs to know in which direction :-P
11:49:32  <fonsinchen> There are a lot of people who like the network-based approach.
11:50:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you make predetermined destinations for 50% of the produced cargo, and network-based for the other 50%
11:50:19  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if that could ever work in cargodist
11:51:38  <fonsinchen> Well, I could somehow integrate the destination selection of YACD and "reserve" some cargo for predetermined destination. Only if the linkgraph finds that those are connected, the cargo is "unlocked"
11:51:43  <fonsinchen> Would be possible.
11:51:54  <fonsinchen> However, first I have some other things to do.
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11:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> different topic: one of the biggest criticisms about cargodist i heard was that the "water flowing" approach doesn't have any way to prevent cargo from going in circles
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11:52:32  <fonsinchen> Cargo doesn't go in circles. The routing algorithm prevents that.
11:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> especially in overcrowded networks (which is kinda the default)
11:53:06  <fonsinchen> If you see a circular routing somewhere please send me the save (and hurry up, as the station GUI will crash immediately then).
11:53:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't mean the routes, but the individual cargo packets
11:53:39  <fonsinchen> (there is one exception: illogical transfer orders as in my "quiz")
11:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> assuming you don't store the destination in the packet
11:53:58  <fonsinchen> also the cargopackets cannot go in circles as long as the routes are fairly stable.
11:55:46  <fonsinchen> I don't store the destinations in the packets, but the flow plans are set up in a way that there cannot be any circles.
11:57:28  <fonsinchen> My plan of action at the moment is 1. Support "no loading" and 2. Make linkgraph calculation time depend on the size of the component and the accuracy being requested.
11:57:54  <fonsinchen> With 2. I'll considerably shorten the delay between changes in the game and changes in the routing scheme.
11:58:11  <fonsinchen> However those things will keep me busy for some months.
11:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> just get it to trunk by next christmas :)
11:59:17  <fonsinchen> I actually think the stuff in the stable branch is ready for trunk.
11:59:35  <fonsinchen> Those optimizations can also be implemented later on.
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12:42:09  <Scuddles>
12:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> "honey, i shrinked the tender"?
12:42:48  <Scuddles> yis
12:43:19  <planetmaker> shrink shrank shrunk ;-)
12:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever :p
12:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> leo also gives "shrunken"
12:45:18  <Pikka> adjective
12:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "to shrink | shrank/shrunk, shrunk/shrunken |"
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12:45:57  <Pikka> I guess
12:46:02  <Pikka> sounds odd to my dialect though
12:46:37  <Scuddles> these are going in pj1k pikka said so
12:46:52  <Pikka> so...
12:47:04  <Scuddles> there he said it
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13:04:15  <Belugas> hello
13:10:32  <Scuddles> hi im scuddles and I have an unhealthy attraction to bubblecars, smoke deflectors, belpaire fireboxes, dual ended single unit locos and 0-8-0T european tank locos and mallets
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13:16:44  <Belugas> good for you
13:17:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i offer these then:
13:22:20  <dihedral> hello
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13:40:35  <Scuddles> Eddi|zuHause: That is pretty fancy
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14:44:57  <NGC3982> cute photo.
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14:59:51  <Pikka> cool, can't update UKRS2+ on bananas either. :)
15:01:44  <Scuddles> BONONOS
15:01:53  <Pikka> oui
15:02:18  <Scuddles> Pense à ranger tes tripes je passe dans ton dos mais je ne suis pas ta bonne
15:05:35  <planetmaker> na toll. und wenn jetzt jeder irgendwelchen Blödsinn in irgendeiner Sprach brabbelt können wir Babylon Konkurenz machen.
15:05:39  <planetmaker> Thus: English only
15:05:53  * Rhamphoryncus is playing UKRS2 right now :D
15:09:30  <Pikka> there's an update, but not a major one.
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15:18:19  <Scuddles> ukrs2 is so 2011
15:19:26  <Rhamphoryncus> It's 1834 here ;)
15:19:54  <Scuddles> wat
15:20:14  <Pikka> 1834 choo choos
15:20:18  <Pikka> I hope you have inflation turned off
15:20:26  <Scuddles> enjoy quadrapleheaded locos and such, har har
15:20:37  <Scuddles> and horses
15:21:25  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, I did remember this time
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15:21:48  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm pondering quadrupleheaded right now.. it would give me more throughput
15:21:58  <Scuddles> throughpoot
15:22:30  <Rhamphoryncus> My wee little pax line is very close to saturation.  I'm having to tweak signal positions to avoid trains jamming on the hills
15:22:32  <Scuddles> enjoy 12kN cramptons D:
15:22:50  <Pikka> do you?
15:22:58  <Scuddles> that happens to me often, especially with breakdowns on and when they break down right before a gradient
15:23:28  <Rhamphoryncus> realistic acceleration has nasty worst-case behaviour there :/
15:23:29  <Scuddles> never building on hills again expecting trains to clear it just because they have inertia
15:26:41  * Rhamphoryncus builds a 4 consist train just to see how it performs.. and on a fluke perfectly fits the stations he's built
15:26:57  <Rhamphoryncus> oh, fits *one* of the stations, heh
15:30:08  * Rhamphoryncus watches it laugh at a puny hill
15:30:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Once again proving: BIGGER.  IS.  BETTER.
15:32:25  <MNIM> heh. only built one quadrupelheaded once. was 28 long and it had its' own special line.
15:32:26  <Pikka> or at least that more powerful is more powerful
15:33:17  <Pikka> MNIM: probably wasn't quadruple headed though, was it?
15:34:24  <MNIM> yeah, it was. carried a freight train full of wood.
15:34:42  <Pikka> oh :)  and 28 long?
15:34:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: power to weight is the same.  I'm literally just gluing 4 trains together.  The advantage is it averages across hills
15:34:52  <Pikka> I see
15:34:57  <MNIM> yeah. why, too many locs?
15:35:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Rather than 1 in 2 tiles being a hill it's 2 in 8 tiles
15:35:20  <Pikka> well, I initially thought you meant a 28 tile long train
15:35:34  <Pikka> which would be a bit much for 4 planets.
15:35:36  <MNIM> yeah, that's what a meant, 28 tiles
15:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause> was that before openttd's acceleration model got tweaked?
15:37:28  <Pikka> flatland and original acceleration? :)
15:38:35  <Pikka> any road up
15:38:38  * Pikka should to bed
15:38:40  <MNIM> no, realistic accelleration and four centennials from the 2cc.
15:38:44  <Pikka> oh
15:39:00  <Pikka> well it wasn't quadruple headed planets then. :)
15:39:05  <Pikka> which is what I said.
15:39:12  <Pikka> goodnight gentlemens.
15:39:20  <MNIM> planets? 0-o
15:39:45  <Pikka> "probably wasn't quadruple headed though, was it?"
15:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess MNIM completely ignored the link
15:39:48  <Pikka> link?
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15:40:05  <MNIM> oooh. I thought you meant locs
15:40:25  <MNIM> yeah, no ancient steam locs. :P
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15:41:38  <Eddi|zuHause> who built 1A locomotives? around here, early locomotives were either 1A1 or B
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15:53:37  <Rubidium> lovely... pikka's gone again... why does he always leave before I return from work ;)
15:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i blame timezones :p
15:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i never remember: does summertime make the difference bigger or smaller?
15:54:40  <Rubidium> it increases for us w.r.t. UTC
15:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker had a *wrong language* mode
15:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> in the forum
15:55:23  <Rubidium> but then for them it'd decrease w.r.t UTC as they goto winter time
15:55:35  <Rubidium> so the difference should decrease
15:55:55  <Scuddles> such is how a pikkaman works
15:56:13  <andythenorth> pikka pikka boo
15:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth spent too much time around kids lately
15:56:36  <Scuddles> once in a while he stays up until later than this though, if you come around at here often enough you'll probably see him one day
15:56:42  <Rubidium> then pikkaman shouldn't complain that he can't upload UKRS to bananas yet ;)
15:56:57  <Scuddles> such is life in the pikkazone
16:00:01  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it was a deliberate mode switch
16:05:12  <ffpp> hi, the templatebased train replacement patch is up in a first version
16:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: this one?
16:05:35  <ffpp> I dug up the old thread about it and realized that I actually forgot about some suggestions made there :>
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16:07:11  <planetmaker> oh, indeed not, Eddi|zuHause . Thx
16:09:30  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: a rule for remembering it: both in the spring and autumn, the clocks are adjusted toward the summer.
16:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that was not what i meant
16:12:02  <__ln__> i see
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16:41:32  <Eddi|zuHause> soo... anybody "excited" about the presidential election?
16:42:05  <glx> which one ?
16:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> pick one :)
16:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> germany pseudo-elects theirs on sunday
16:43:27  <glx> the campaign for ours starts on monday
16:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> just more than a thousand people eligible to vote
16:43:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and the winner is already predetermined
16:44:51  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: is that the one where the major european leaders have decided to boycott the opposition candidate?
16:45:08  <glx> yup
16:45:42  <glx> but recently the other one said something with similar effects :)
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17:27:10  <andythenorth> projectile sick
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17:38:03  <__ln__> would someone be very upset if shift+mousewheel panned the map, without enabling any settings first?
17:38:47  <Zuu> do you mean shift + third button or shift + scrolling?
17:40:02  <__ln__> shift + scrolling
17:40:37  <Zuu> To move north/south by spinning the wheel?
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17:41:24  <Zuu> That wouldn't upset me as I usually play OpenTTD with a device that doesn't have a scroll wheel. :-)
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17:41:44  <__ln__> and east/west by scrolling horizontally
17:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: better to figure out how to specify that in hotkeys.cfg
17:42:54  <Zuu> Reminds me of my patch to allow zooming in out by holding the middle mouse button and moving the mouse.
17:43:18  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: are you saying the user should manually edit a config file in order to pan the map?
17:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: no
17:46:54  <Zuu> For new users the default hotkey.cfg settings could have it enabled.
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17:58:39  <__ln__> and for old users not?
17:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i mean figure out how to query mouse actions as "key", and then allow the user to decide whether he wants to pan the map with scrollwheel, 5-finger-movement, asdw or whatever
17:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> what to use as default, and how to achieve gui-modification of hotkeys is then a separate discussion
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18:03:21  <__ln__> i can't say that's a bad idea, but adding the one extra layer of abstraction for a feature that nobody actively wants probably means nobody will implement it that way.
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18:35:29  <Wolf01> hello
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18:39:21  <Alberth> moin
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18:40:14  <Ricaz> If coal and a power station can reach eachother, then what?
18:40:46  <Ricaz> how do you transport the coal to the powerstation?
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18:41:38  <Alberth> build a station out of reach of the power station
18:42:08  <Alberth> however, you won't make much money, so probably not worth the trouble
18:43:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24032 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:43:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:43:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 13 changes by Fopper
18:43:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
18:43:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by mantaray
18:43:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: welsh - 15 changes by kazzie
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18:53:53  <Terkhen> hello
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19:04:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Ricaz: distances are based on the stations, not the industries
19:05:14  <Ricaz> Ah, you make more money depending on the distance?
19:05:38  <Belugas> the bigger the distance. the more money indeed
19:05:49  <Belugas> up to a certain point
19:05:52  <Belugas> of course
19:06:03  <Rhamphoryncus> It's linear to distance (twice as far gets twice as much), but is reduced by time spent in a more complicated way
19:06:04  <Belugas> speed of delivery is also to be considered
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19:13:58  * andythenorth ponders pondering
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19:15:07  * andythenorth ponders the sad death of 8bpp :(
19:16:05  <Rhamphoryncus> sad?
19:17:04  <V453000> death?
19:17:33  <andythenorth> perhaps reports of its death are exagerated
19:18:02  <V453000> the artists who like pixel art will probably not abandon the "limited" palette so quickly
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19:18:27  <V453000> at least for me the point of pixel art is to do wonders with limited possibilities as resolution and colour depth
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19:19:25  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, you can do wonders, but I've also come to realize that most of my complaints about graphics can be traced to the 8bit palette
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19:19:33  <Alberth> if you do anything tron-like, you don't even need the full 8bpp :)
19:19:47  <andythenorth> yeah, but 32bpp will become de-facto, because it's more realistic
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19:20:03  <andythenorth> and many of our so-called artists seem to value realism
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19:20:13  <andythenorth> perhaps they have not had magritte 101
19:20:17  <V453000> their problem tbh
19:20:40  <Alberth> andythenorth: but can you make nice pixel art other than by rendering for 32bpp?
19:21:07  <andythenorth> voxels!
19:21:10  <V453000> :D
19:21:13  <Rhamphoryncus> ooh voxels
19:21:16  <andythenorth> qubicals!
19:21:19  <andythenorth> blearch
19:21:35  <Alberth> I have voxels too, but they are invisible :p
19:21:43  <andythenorth> toys look better with limited palettes
19:21:45  <Alberth> and quite big :)
19:22:47  <V453000> im staying with the true pixel art. Definitely not drawing in higher resolutions, neither with more colours
19:24:19  <Alberth> V453000: many people will play the game in higher resolution, I suspect, to compensate for the high resolution of their monitor
19:24:34  <andythenorth> how many colours are needed anyway?
19:24:44  <V453000> they can, not my problem :)
19:27:01  <andythenorth> also
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19:44:09  <andythenorth> roadtypes!
19:44:14  <andythenorth> multi-stop docks!
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19:46:14  <Wolf01> does anybody of you have a buffalo nas and knows how to tweak the httpd.conf to add some aliases and activate at least the rewrite module?
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20:01:42  <Alberth> quak
20:02:09  <frosch123> hai albert :)
20:04:08  <Wolf01> hi frosch
20:05:30  <frosch123> Ciao Wolf :)
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20:34:46  <andythenorth> bibble bobble
20:34:48  <andythenorth> and booble
20:34:58  <andythenorth> is it April 1st yet?
20:35:27  <Alberth> almost
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20:46:17  <rane> what's a good resource if i want to learn to build a mainline that has 2 railroads to both directions
20:46:59  <rane> i'm sure you have to account for balancing them somehow
20:47:34  <TWerkhoven2[l]>
20:47:43  <TWerkhoven2[l]> mind they play without breakdowns enabled
20:47:48  <rane> disabled
20:47:50  <rane> oh
20:47:53  <rane> yeah
20:47:54  <rane> i know that
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20:48:01  <TWerkhoven2[l]> duh, yes
20:48:03  <rane> i got some convincing arguments why breakdowns disabled makes sense
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20:59:33  <Eddi|zuHause> breakdowsns are probably an even more broken feature than inflation
21:00:06  <andythenorth> broken breakdowns :o
21:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly :)
21:01:06  <andythenorth> what will you fix about them?
21:01:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i won't fix breakdowns
21:01:49  <rane> not all broken features can be fixed without removing them
21:01:54  <Rubidium> pff... breakdowns aren't broken
21:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: have you heard a horse break down yet? :p
21:02:45  <Rubidium> spontanious combustion
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21:06:46  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: the newgrf author inventing horses should have realized the problem, and fix it by means of a newgrf spec change
21:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the most broken parts about breakdowns include: a breakdown is guaranteed to occur within 256 days, there is no way to reduce that. a breakdown will always cause a full stop, even for multiheaded trains. there is no way to design your network so broken down vehicles are avoided by using parallel tracks
21:08:09  <andythenorth> did you mention RVs yet?
21:08:32  <andythenorth> articulated ones (for all the known reasons) won't go round a break down
21:08:41  <andythenorth> also...broken down ships should....drift
21:08:45  <andythenorth> off course
21:08:47  <andythenorth> randomly
21:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and hit the cliffs? :p
21:10:04  <andythenorth> maybe
21:11:19  <SpComb> does anyone actually play with breakdowns and anything other than point-to-point tracks?
21:11:33  <Rhamphoryncus> wait, 256 days is the cap?!
21:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: pretty sure
21:12:01  * andythenorth plays with breakdowns
21:12:05  <Rhamphoryncus> SpComb: nobody does because they suck
21:12:14  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: you are nobody :P
21:13:01  <Rhamphoryncus> Would it be hard to make the pathfinder severely penalize broken down trains?  That should be enough to make other trains go around
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21:14:32  * Alberth plays with breakdowns too
21:14:35  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: vehicles need to be inspected, by law, every 256 days. A breakdown in a multiheaded vehicle is always an event that is significant enough to stop the train, e.g. a broken air hose or so
21:14:56  <rane> what's this called?
21:14:59  <Rubidium> if it wasn't significant enough it would just continue and you wouldn't notice it was broken
21:15:21  <peter1138> :)
21:15:23  <Rubidium> and even in the real world a broken train disrupts the stream of traffic significantly
21:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but still, the other trains could be rerouted
21:16:15  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: the path finder does try to avoid other trains by default
21:16:17  <Rhamphoryncus> rane: maaaagic
21:16:43  <rane> openttdcoop network stuff is daunting :|
21:16:44  <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: it avoids trains in general.  Does it especially avoid broken trains?
21:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and the point is, the breakdown is guaranteed every 256 ticks _even though_ you regularly service it. you could check every week, but you still get that guaranteed breakdown
21:17:07  <Rhamphoryncus> rane: that's actually a "prio" or priority merge
21:17:08  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: not that I am aware of
21:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so servicing has hardly any effect
21:17:30  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: really every 256 ticks?
21:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and track layout has hardly any effect either
21:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i meant days
21:18:10  <Alberth> rane: yes, they are insane in a good way
21:18:25  <rane> it's also depressing me
21:18:27  <Rhamphoryncus> rane: The coal train is coming through an entry pre-signal.  That requires the block following to be empty and an exit or combo pre-signal in that block to be green
21:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't play coop-style
21:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: i don't want to.
21:18:54  <Rubidium> then I declare it a law to test the emergency brakes every 256 days ;)
21:19:23  <Alberth> rane: why? developing your own style is so much more fun than copying one
21:19:44  <rane> yeah, i agree
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21:20:25  <rane> Rhamphoryncus: i think i would have to see that in action to understand how it works
21:20:47  <Alberth> rane: you can also download the games they play
21:21:11  <frosch123> lol, the template replacement guy started all his files with aaa_ :o
21:21:14  <Rhamphoryncus> rane: the real trick is that if there are no exit or combo signals from a certain direction (not merely red but actually not present) then it behaves like an ordinary block signal
21:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: noticed that as well, but didn't really care enough to say anything :p
21:22:07  <frosch123> probably a vim user considering how messed up the whitespace is
21:22:10  <Rhamphoryncus> rane: so a train coming from the bridge merely has 3 block signals.  They look like presignals but they're not.
21:22:16  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what ensures the 256 days?
21:23:05  <rane> Rhamphoryncus: trains coming from which direction in that image have the priority?
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21:23:11  <Rhamphoryncus> rane: the bridge
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21:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: afair there's a "breakdown counter", that gets initialized by a reliability table, reduced by 1 every day, randomly by 20, and breaks down when it hits 0
21:24:30  <Rhamphoryncus> How does the percentage factor in?
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21:28:21  <rane> Rhamphoryncus: thanks, i somewhat understand the concept better from these examples,
21:28:36  <rane> might've missed some important signals from the previous image
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21:31:22  <michi_cc> Rubidium: Breakdown frequency is listed in and
21:31:45  <michi_cc> Most important quote: "Servicing resets a vehicle's internal reliability score to the maximum, *but does not adjust the breakdown number*. This explains how vehicles can still break down just as they come out of the depot after being serviced."
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21:34:45  <TaKeN> Hello
21:34:50  <Alberth> hi root
21:34:53  <andythenorth> breakdown behaviour is tedious
21:35:01  <andythenorth> I don't like turning breakdowns off
21:35:13  <andythenorth> the game needs stuff like that
21:35:29  <andythenorth> but the 'leave depot, breakdown' behaviour sucks :P
21:35:39  <andythenorth> as does the frequent inability of vehicles to route to depots
21:35:51  <TaKeN> there is any option to generate statistic of my servers ? i see on how many ppl is on and how many companies but i want statistic when is more ppl and when is less.. there is any option ?
21:36:25  <Yexo> you'll have to generate that yourself
21:36:29  <TaKeN> because i restart my servers every 6, 10, 18, 22 and now i create a new one
21:36:37  <Yexo> tools that might help you is a library to connect to the admin port to query the current status
21:36:39  <TaKeN> Yexo: aha :( so You don`t have stats for Yourself ?
21:36:49  <Yexo> I don't have a server
21:36:52  <Yexo> so no stats either :p
21:36:56  <TaKeN> but for servers oin webpage
21:37:02  <TaKeN> all servers i mean ;)
21:37:04  <rane> breakdowns should be a mechanic that can be dealt with by playing smart, or something presents a trade off for the player where they get penalized with breakdowns if they take shortcut, something like that. i don't like randomness.
21:37:12  <Yexo> ah, not sure
21:37:15  <Yexo> don't think so
21:37:15  <TaKeN> You don`t have stats all servers from
21:37:45  <Rubidium> there's no history of those numbers
21:38:00  <Alberth> rane: it does by making you pay heavily if you don't take care of reliability of your vehicles
21:38:14  <Rhamphoryncus> Breakdowns don't add any nuance to gameplay.  You get that annoying noise, everything stops for a bit.
21:38:42  <Alberth> my trains are spaced out enough not to cause much trouble
21:38:44  <andythenorth> it makes you consider depot placement, which can be interestingly hard in some places
21:38:55  <Rhamphoryncus> If you have a hill and don't power your train enough to go from a standing start then everything stops for a long time.
21:38:57  <andythenorth> and at the start of a game, breakdowns can be a company killer
21:40:18  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: sure, so make sure you have a sane train setup :p
21:40:33  <Alberth> like having less wagons :)
21:40:34  <SpComb> collectd-openttd
21:40:40  <SpComb> quick, someone write a plugin
21:41:07  <Alberth> SpComb it's called an AI, I think
21:41:22  <SpComb> no, a collectd plugin to read from openttd admin port
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21:42:03  <rane> can you avoid breakdowns by having multiple maintain orders, depending on length of the route? that might be interesting to manage, or maybe too much overhead
21:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that reminds me, i wanted to factor the reliability into the maintenance costs
21:42:15  <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: which means I can't have both normal trains and mountain trains.  The mountain trains aren't designed for better *speed* in the presence of hills.  They have to be designed not to stop *at all*.  I end up so overpowering that everything ignores hills.
21:42:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause pikka fakes that by using age as a proxy I think
21:43:13  <Eddi|zuHause> not age, reliability. so you'll have an incentive to service while breakdowns are off
21:43:57  <TaKeN> Yexo: what tools can check every 1 hour  stats from all my 3 servers and put on www or something like this ?
21:44:21  <Yexo> TaKeN: there is no tool for that
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21:44:58  <Alberth> TaKeN: all general purpose programming languages, but you have to tell them how
21:45:10  <Rhamphoryncus> rane: Nope, sufficient maintenance will not avoid breakdowns.  At a certain point it has no more effect.
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21:47:03  <TaKeN> oks
21:47:06  <TaKeN> thanks guys
21:47:14  <TaKeN> take care
21:47:16  <TaKeN> cya around
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21:48:12  <rane> are there hotkeys for choosing signal type? other than ctrl-click
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21:48:41  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you could also adjust speed and power in line with reliability :P
21:49:40  <Pulec> 3 hours of plain, two players
21:49:45  <Pulec>
21:50:14  <Pulec> had the idea of building from one corner and transport everything that could be transported, than move on
21:54:53  <andythenorth> good night
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22:30:51  <Rhamphoryncus> Woops.  Arable farms are, apparently, not great sources of plant fibres.
22:33:56  <FLHerne> FIRS has too many kinds of farm
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22:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Economies!
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22:38:20  <FLHerne> Yes... I only have rail services to about 40 of the things :P
22:47:04  <Eddi|zuHause> not what i meant
22:48:03  <Rhamphoryncus> FIRS will ultimately let you select which set of industries is active
22:48:11  <FLHerne> Ah, that
22:51:32  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, tricky.  First autorefit fails and you don't get the cargo.. because the industry isn't delivering it yet.
22:54:02  <michi_cc> If you rely extensively on autorefit, you might want to disable the "deliver only on demand" setting.
22:55:24  <Rhamphoryncus> It should be fine.  Just surprising.
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23:07:23  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe autorefit should create "demand" for all eligible cargos
23:09:08  <frosch123> that would rather break stuff
23:09:16  <Eddi|zuHause> how?
23:09:20  <frosch123> it should be possible to enable demand via the station gui
23:09:35  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it would effectively call demand on everything
23:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: only if the current order has autorefit
23:09:53  <frosch123> even if you do not want to transport the stuff
23:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: for all "normal" orders it'll be fine
23:10:49  <frosch123> anyway, night :)
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23:31:56  <Ricaz> I'm trying to figure out signals.
23:31:58  <Ricaz>
23:32:04  <Ricaz> This is a station I have built to test
23:32:15  <Ricaz> But I'm unsure what signals to use where
23:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> put a path signal behind the platform (from train's direction)
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23:34:07  <Ricaz> Hm? Let's start by the lower side
23:34:20  <Ricaz> trains only run on the right track of the line
23:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> let's go along the inner track. you have lots of basic block signals along the track, that's alright
23:35:49  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have a one-way path signal at the end of the track (with the red bar)
23:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> then the junction
23:35:59  <michi_cc> Ricaz: Enable "show reserved tracks" if you haven't yet. Helps for such stuff.
23:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> then the platform
23:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> then another junction
23:36:12  <Ricaz> how michi_cc?
23:36:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and get back to the inner track with the block signals
23:36:34  <michi_cc> Somewhere under Interface in the advanced settings.
23:36:37  <Ricaz> well
23:36:52  <Ricaz> the first 1W path signal is good?
23:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> now add 2-way pathsignals to each platform
23:37:10  <Ricaz> then I need more path signals after that one?
23:37:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so that the train can see them from inside the station
23:37:40  <Ricaz> oh so they need to face the opposite way
23:37:50  <Ricaz> of the 1W one
23:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:37:55  <Ricaz> okay
23:38:38  <Ricaz> and then?
23:39:05  <Eddi|zuHause> then you're basically done
23:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> replicate that same setup for the outer track in the other direction
23:39:36  <Ricaz> well if 6 trains come from that direction, will they properly slide into the station?
23:39:45  <Ricaz> or do I need more paths?
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23:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> just let them drive for a while, you'll learn to see the bottlenecks :)
23:42:25  <Ricaz> well this is one big bottleneck now lol
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23:44:36  <Ricaz> now this happens:
23:44:37  <Ricaz>
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23:45:07  <Yexo> the signals facing the station have to be right next to each platform
23:45:42  <Yexo> <michi_cc> Ricaz: Enable "show reserved tracks" if you haven't yet. Helps for such stuff. <_ this helps to spot why
23:46:06  <Ricaz> I just did enable that, no difference :s
23:46:22  <Yexo> where do you expect the stopped train to go to?
23:46:41  <Ricaz> I want it to go to a free slot
23:46:54  <Ricaz> So I just need 12 path signals at eash side? :o
23:47:04  <Yexo> no, 6 at each side
23:47:17  <michi_cc> Ricaz: You can actually see the path on the exit of track A. I think with the TTD graphics that is easier to see.
23:48:30  <Ricaz> ah they darken
23:48:52  <Ricaz> Thanks, that helped a lot :D
23:49:38  * FLHerne tries to merge lots of patches
23:50:19  <FLHerne> Does anyone have an estimate on how long OTTD should take to compile? I need to sleep sometime :-(
23:50:25  <Yexo> Ricaz:
23:50:59  <Ricaz> thanks Yexo, that is almost what I have now
23:50:59  <Yexo> FLHerne: depends a lot on your computer, but not very long
23:51:39  <FLHerne> That was a completely pointless question, wasn't it? 8-)
23:51:57  <Yexo> well, yes :)
23:52:12  <Yexo> it takes 1m11s for me after a make clean
23:52:26  <FLHerne> Given I've had 40 mins to 8 hours, I really should know better...
23:53:03  <FLHerne> I've got one attempt compiling on each core to see what errors I get :P
23:54:16  <Ricaz> How come I can't choose a road layout and Large size for the town I'm about to found?
23:55:17  <Yexo> not sure about the road layout
23:55:30  <Yexo> town sizes are only available in the scenario editor, when founding a town in game it's always "small"
23:55:47  <Ricaz> Well, I can choose small, medium and random
23:55:47  * FLHerne still can't get Cargodist and More Heightlevels to coexist :-(
23:55:59  <Ricaz> for the roads I can change it in the advanced settings
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23:58:38  <Ricaz> Is there a way to force a town to expand?
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23:59:51  <FLHerne> In recent trunk, should there be a gap between 'Abandon Game' and 'Exit' in the save menu?

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