Log for #openttd on 18th April 2012:
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00:22:54  <Rhamphoryncus> "Change: Don't let vehicles break down directly after servicing."  <-- sounds pretty significant
00:23:30  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus yeah especially when you have a train that dumps black smoke a few pixels outside the depot :p
00:23:40  <drac_boy> these were always a bit silly to see
00:23:46  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
00:23:58  <Rhamphoryncus> But that should influence servicing in general
00:24:15  <Rhamphoryncus> Not just when they leave the depot
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00:33:54  <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: It's hopefully significant :) It is not an absolute limit though, as the breakdown code is highly randomised, it just decreases the chance a lot.
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00:34:11  <Rhamphoryncus> aye.  I'll have to check out the behaviour later
00:34:29  <Rhamphoryncus> After I finish beating hg rebase into submission :P
00:35:25  <michi_cc> It should be a lot less annoying as long as the engine has a decent reliability. If you have a totally outdated engine with like 30% reliability even directly after servicing it won't change much :)
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00:40:02  <drac_boy> hmm
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00:48:38  * drac_boy probably is not going to understand this thing with computer plugs
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00:56:16  * Rhamphoryncus kicks hg in the nads
00:56:23  <Rhamphoryncus> I now have a commit it claims michi_cc did :P
00:58:55  <drac_boy> heh
01:02:04  <Rhamphoryncus> wait.. it did that because my commit includes a change from him.  It mixed them.  Proper corruption that. :P
01:09:40  <drac_boy> :)
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01:44:05  <Rhamphoryncus> openttd is bitching about missing sprites in the base set.  I already downloaded an updated opengfx via the content manager.  Is it loading the wrong one or is opengfx not caught up with openttd yet?
01:46:26  * drac_boy actually wishes the patch would quit erroring about the useless base grf that isn't needed
01:46:30  <drac_boy> but -_-
01:46:47  * Rhamphoryncus looks at his generated town
01:48:09  <Rhamphoryncus> junkyard, dairy, petrol pump, aluminium plant, and grain mill in or immediately adjacent to it.  Furniture factory and cement plant within another 10 tiles.  And it's on the edge of the water
01:50:01  <Rhamphoryncus> oops, builders yard too
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01:59:40  <drac_boy> heh sounds odd :)
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02:05:24  <Rhamphoryncus> To be fair I only have 2 cities, so some of those are pretty likely to happen.. but others are a complete fluke
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02:20:23  * Rhamphoryncus wonders how his currency got changed to lithuanian litas
02:23:02  <Rhamphoryncus> I need to make a new title game just to shut up that whistle
02:26:40  <Mazur> Or mut OTTDs audio.
02:26:45  <Mazur> mute
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04:06:58  <Rhamphoryncus> wtf.. first piece of track after updating and I already get to enjoy FS#3660 XD
04:19:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Anybody know why openttd switches from tab to shift for fastforward when debug is enabled?
04:20:46  <Mazur> mybe the shortkey file only gets read in one.
04:20:55  <Mazur> hotkey, I mean.
04:21:19  <Rhamphoryncus> no, it's done directly in the code
04:21:34  <Rhamphoryncus> sdl_v.cpp line 580
04:21:38  <Mazur> DIfferent coders, then.
04:21:48  <Rhamphoryncus> which is from revision 0
04:21:54  * Mazur is just guessing.
04:22:53  <Rhamphoryncus> Although the tab lines aren't from revision zero.. maybe shift was added way-back-when as a debugging trick and tab was later added to all of them as the real form?
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07:18:14  <dihedral> good morning
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07:51:35  <ffpp> does anybody know things about using multiple engines for one train ? I always thought that running cost would count for each engine but the numbers I am seeing in the game just don't add up
07:57:31  <xiong> ffpp, Yes, I quite commonly multihead.
07:57:53  <xiong> Running cost does indeed apply to each engine, so far as I've seen.
07:58:36  <ffpp> hm, I always thought so too, I'm currently playing with weight multiplier 4x, so multiple locos are often necessary
07:59:19  <xiong> Two (identical) engines cost twice as much to purchase, twice as much to operate, provide twice the power and twice the TE; and are twice as long. The maximum speed and rate of breakdown is the same.
07:59:39  <ffpp> but for one engine the description says running cost 53k/y, while an actual train with two of those engines has running cost of 78k
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07:59:54  <xiong> !?
07:59:59  <xiong> What set?
08:00:04  <ffpp> UKRS2
08:00:09  <xiong> Ah.
08:00:14  <ffpp> Ah?
08:00:17  <xiong> Well, I play NARS.
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08:00:38  <xiong> It's quite possible that another train set has got some sort of MU adjustment; I have no idea.
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08:02:06  <xiong> If I were you, I'd want to pull that train into a depot, note carefully the running cost, and break it in two, then recombine. Something may reveal itself.
08:02:36  <ffpp> I will test some more :)
08:03:18  <xiong> Um, again, I don't know about your train set; but NARS engines come in multiple "models" of the same type. For instance, the American 0-4-0 comes out as two wood-burning and two coal-burning models; each has increased power, TE, purchase cost and running costs.
08:03:35  <ffpp> (I even did something evil during this savegame - readjusted a newgrf, maybe that messed something up)
08:04:01  <ffpp> hm, no this model things doesn't seem to apply to ukrs
08:04:07  <xiong> So I may have an American on the track and the new model comes out; I buy another American -- the same slot in the Buy Vehicles window -- but it's not the same as the existing one....
08:04:45  <xiong> Well, as usual, it's always interesting to create a clean test case.
08:05:13  <ffpp> hm, I had the game in pause mode since I saw that issue, unpausing and reopening the train window now gives 133k as running costs/y, which is much more reasonable
08:05:24  <xiong> Ah.
08:06:03  <xiong> Except 2 x 53 = 106, which is pretty far from 133 or 78, even allowing for possible integer weirdness.
08:06:31  <ffpp> the rest should be the wagons
08:06:50  <xiong> Oh. Does UKRS have a running cost for cars, too?
08:07:08  <ffpp> yes
08:07:42  <xiong> Ah. Well then, your situation is more complex. NARS cars run for free; only engines cost.
08:08:26  <xiong> Sounds to me as if what you saw was just a case of the game catching up; this happens. Not all housekeeping is done instantly or when paused.
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08:08:58  <morten> hi all
08:09:16  <xiong> For instance -- trivially -- if you have a train on the way to a station and you pause, then open the order window and skip that station, the train window will still show the old order... until unpaused.
08:09:31  <xiong> Hi, morten.
08:09:38  <ffpp> yes, something like this should be the case
08:10:14  <morten> i'm trying to set up a dedicated server, and when the client try to connect i get a msg telling me that the client could not load the map. ???
08:11:06  <morten> the server and the client i in the same lan and the version is 1.2.0
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08:51:20  <morten> i'm trying to set up a dedicated server v 1.2.0, and when the client try to connect i get a msg telling me that the client could not load the map. ??? the server and the client is in the same lan and it use to work with 1.1.5 :) tnx
08:53:42  <FLHerne> Is the client also 1.2.0 (obvious question :P )
08:55:09  <FLHerne> Actually, you wouldn't get that message if it was...stupid question, sorry :-(
08:57:02  * FLHerne wonders if anyone who knows more is around
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08:58:30  <Wolf01> hi
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09:24:35  <morten> tnx anyway ill catch up later, (sob sob) :)
09:24:55  <FLHerne> morten: Just found something...
09:26:03  <FLHerne> It appears that previously 'almost too big' maps are now a little too big in some cases :|
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09:26:33  <FLHerne> Are you using a 2048x2048 one?
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10:19:28  <drac_boy> hi
10:31:08  <FLHerne> hi
10:31:25  <drac_boy> hi FLHerne how're you?
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10:34:45  <FLHerne> drac_boy: Ok, thanks
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10:35:57  <andythenorth> hello
10:37:04  <drac_boy> hi andythenorth
10:37:14  <V453000> hi :)
10:37:17  <V453000> thoughts? :)
10:37:20  <drac_boy> V453000 :p
10:37:40  <drac_boy> V453000 hmm is that NUTS again?
10:38:08  <V453000> of course, I dont really develop 5 train sets at once :p
10:38:20  <drac_boy> V453000 it could had been two silly
10:38:42  <drac_boy> but either way I think the gray one is better as the shades do suggest windows .. the other two looks like goods-only to me in a way
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10:38:55  <V453000> they are :)
10:39:01  <V453000> it is passengers / mail / gold
10:40:05  <drac_boy> well even mail would still have side door shades of some sort
10:40:13  <V453000> yeah, something perhaps
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10:50:47  <drac_boy> not much progress here, mainly tryijng clean up numbers -_-
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11:01:07  <drac_boy> I think the tractive numbers sometimes can be a bit hard to decide about heh
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11:19:55  <NGC3982>
11:20:16  <NGC3982> V453000: that might be the most sexual grf ive ever seen - and i like it!
11:20:52  <V453000> sexual?
11:23:18  <lugo> phallic?
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11:43:38  <morten> FLHerne: i'll check
11:53:08  <morten> FLHerne: i solved the issue with a new creation of the cfg file.
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12:09:10  <xiong> V453000, I will not be able to tell, when the train is not moving, which way it intends to go.
12:09:31  <V453000> good point
12:09:38  <V453000> not sure if I actually want to fix that however
12:09:56  <xiong> I'm not saying I can't eventually deduce it; but I can't see it immediately.
12:10:00  <V453000> I like when trains in terminus stations do not just flicker and change but stay the way they came when they leave
12:10:04  <drac_boy> V453000 you can, just go with two yellowish-white to the 'active' end :p
12:10:09  <V453000> yeah I know
12:10:21  <xiong> I tend to assemble my trains specifically to reveal stuff about them, such as which way they're pointing and what they carry.
12:10:25  <V453000> maybe some lights are viable
12:10:38  <V453000> but yes, good point, thank you
12:11:04  <drac_boy> xiong and not to mention when a train is sitting in the middle of a path route not moving and you're trying to figure out why it wouldn't move yet ... that means needing to know which direction it was trying to head to
12:11:10  <xiong> Okay, you are building a high-speed commuter train, probably per-car traction, right?
12:11:50  <xiong> drac_boy, exactly. One can pull up the little train window, which always centers on the head; but untangling a complex jam is made more difficult.
12:12:04  <drac_boy> xiong not all high speed trains have all axles powered... even some of the japan commuter trainsets are only like M-T-M-T-M .. as in three motors and two coaches for the 5-car set ... even the 10-car emu still sorta does the same
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12:12:22  <drac_boy> just so you know :)
12:12:25  <xiong> Nor does the intended *destination* always suggest the intended direction of travel!
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12:14:09  <xiong> Well, here in the Bay Area, we have BART... not exactly high speed. To my knowledge, all cars are powered; in fact, all cars have cabs -- strictly speaking, each car has one cab and they are permanently linked in pairs.
12:14:48  <FLHerne> Sounds just like the DLR
12:14:55  <drac_boy> does BART run next to normal freight trains or is it one of these un-train isolated route thing?
12:14:58  <xiong> Some of the cars are intended to run as head-end cabs and they have sloping fronts... it's not clear just how much extra streamlining this is worth.
12:15:29  <xiong> BART is heavy rail on dedicated right-of-way; in most places, it is elevated.
12:16:03  <xiong> In practice, much of it runs on old heavy rail right-of-way -- but elevated, or at least isolated.
12:16:32  <drac_boy> xiong...try find a more 'train'ish set and you'll find out that the thing about not having all axles probably rings true too often :p
12:16:44  * goodger has an example
12:17:00  <xiong> I *believe* it has no grade crossings whatever; I could be wrong. Under the Bay, it runs through a Tube; and through San Francisco proper, through a tunnel.
12:17:07  <goodger> the BR class 395 "Javelin" has six cars, and the end ones are unpowered
12:17:59  <xiong> There should be a BART grf.
12:18:23  <drac_boy> goodger I'm not too surprised, some emus are built in such a way that things are spread through the train, even in some rare cases the transformer is not on the same carriage that has the traction motors even
12:18:50  <goodger> of course, the class 395 is a pathetic specimen
12:19:26  <drac_boy> mind you goodger if you want an interesting example of cab being seperated from the power ... just look up any images to do with 'DB ET87'
12:19:36  <xiong> Anyway, V453000, yes, it's a way cool. Try a big splash of reverse-company-color on the head and I'll buy it.
12:19:44  <drac_boy> its a permament trainset made up of coach-loco-coach .. no seating in the middle section afaik
12:19:53  <V453000> big splash :)
12:20:06  <V453000> thank you anyway :)
12:20:18  <xiong> Mass transit tends to big logos anyway.
12:21:08  <xiong> I like the headlight idea, too.
12:21:41  <drac_boy> well xiong most trains travel through some sort of no-sun hours obviously :P
12:22:05  <xiong> Mass transit tends to operate with headlights around the clock.
12:22:40  <xiong> Partly to warn pax on platform of approaching train; partly because at least some of the route is underground.
12:23:19  <xiong> Come to think of it, I've seen quite a lot of trains run daytime lights. I imagine it's a fashion that comes and goes.
12:23:35  * drac_boy would had turned it off
12:23:37  <drac_boy> but :)
12:24:07  <xiong> Well, anyway, headlights would indicate the head end realistically.
12:25:04  <xiong> Oooh, you could also have a little red EOT....
12:26:56  <xiong> Obviously, we also have cable cars here in SF. The interesting thing is that, after the glory days, the lines have been reduced to a mere three. The two lines that start from the Powell Street station have turntables at each end, which are turned by hand; and the cars are single-ended. The California Street line runs double-ended cars.
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12:29:57  <xiong> Visitors often call these "trolleys", which is highly offensive. We do actually have a class trolley line running from the Wharf around the Embarcadero (waterfront) and down Market Street. We run mostly PCCs on it, with a few nasty wooden monsters salvaged from Milan.
12:30:10  <drac_boy> xiong...english is weird..thats all I can say :)
12:30:17  <drac_boy> especially when subway=metro
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12:30:53  <xiong> Each PCC is painted in historical colors from all over US. So one is the "Philly Cream Cheese" scheme, another the Los Angeles "Red Line", etc.
12:31:10  <drac_boy> they didn't forget PE orange I hope? :p
12:31:55  <xiong> We also have a number of conventional, modern light rail lines. These run in subway under Market Street but at grade in the outlying areas.
12:33:11  <xiong>
12:34:36  <drac_boy> btw xiong did you know that a few companies actually ordered MU-able PCC's?
12:34:47  <drac_boy> :)
12:34:55  <xiong> Hm.
12:35:14  <xiong> The modern light rail we have can be MU-ed; but rarely is.
12:35:35  <drac_boy> and xiong .. there was also the Green Hornet
12:35:39  <drac_boy> very long!
12:35:51  <drac_boy> had three folding doors ... front, middle, and rear
12:36:05  <goodger> that's a tram, surely
12:36:14  <drac_boy> thats a pcc actually
12:36:34  <goodger> i.e. a tram
12:36:43  <drac_boy> they were the only one as far as I recall, everyone else sticked with the normal pcc designs as given more or less
12:37:07  <drac_boy> at least one of them did look a bit silly tho.. standard gauge body on narrow gauge trucks :-)
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12:42:34  <drac_boy> I always kinda found interurbans a bit interesting
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12:43:28  <drac_boy> many of them were both streetrail and rail running, only difference from the usual rail cars was the different trucks meant to be able to take sharp curves with
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12:46:32  <drac_boy> mind you one of these was rather famous...the Electroliner ... it was supposed to be able to do 130km/h on the usual high speed mainlines but then later be doing 20km/h squealing around a sharp city curb
12:46:50  <drac_boy> i can't think of any other trainsets that had such a dual purpose
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12:53:34  <drac_boy> btw xiong would you had cared if a train grf had tender or tank steamers?
12:53:44  <drac_boy> (that is either)
12:54:09  <xiong> I don't follow you, drac_boy. I run NARS and the tenders are integral to the engines.
12:54:55  <xiong> I would be appalled if a steam locomotive was operated without a tender; such a thing would be absurd.
12:56:06  <xiong> But then, I was disturbed on a visit to the Sacramento Railway Museum; they have there on display (inoperative) an EMD F-unit... just the A unit. What became of the B?
12:56:18  <drac_boy> xiong, never liked tank locomotives then?
12:56:36  <drac_boy> and btw xiong...quite many railroads only had the A units.. even for the FT's
12:56:54  <xiong> It made me uncomfortable, what can I say.
12:57:03  <drac_boy> theres something about 'elephant' F's where you have more than three of them on one train with all noses pointing forward :)
12:57:36  <xiong> Obviously if it's a tank loco it has no tender. What are you driving at?
12:58:12  <drac_boy> mind you BN had the biggest one of them....F's were being scrapped before a coal boom happened so they halted all scrapping and did a quick overhaul on what was left to shore up the locomotive shortages.  so some trains could have 7+ F units on head
12:58:16  <xiong> In NARS, when you buy an American 0-4-0, you get the engine itself and its tender; as it should be.
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12:58:40  <drac_boy> xiong...a 0-4-0T is american too :p
12:58:53  <drac_boy> especially the ones nicknamed Dockside .. as that was often their kind of job
12:59:15  <posidon> Hey guys, anyone can tell me how to replace aircraft with the same model? I looked around ... but found nothing on it... I rather not have to ... clone 50 aircrafts just to get the same model
12:59:23  <xiong> Look, if you want to come out with a tank grf, go right ahead. You can even put Thomas in it if you like.
12:59:43  <drac_boy> podifon you want to go to the aircraft list window and click on 'replace all' in the dropdown menu near bottom?
12:59:50  <drac_boy> xiong...thomas? why?
13:00:32  <xiong>
13:00:33  <posidon> drac_boy yes I want to replace them and I tried that but it didnt offer to replace them with the same aircraft model, it insisted on replacing them with a diffrent aircraft
13:00:48  <drac_boy> posidon why are you trying to replace when you don't need to?
13:01:21  <posidon> drac_boy they are beyond their age and becoming a maintenance nightmare, I am trying to replace them with the same model just newer
13:01:33  <drac_boy> posidon do you have breakdown on or off?
13:01:34  <xiong> posidon, you want "autorenew", not autoreplace.
13:01:58  <posidon> where is that, and this is on an online server btw so I cant turn breakdown off ;p
13:02:08  <drac_boy> posidon so breakdown is on then I assume?
13:02:14  <posidon> it is sir
13:02:45  <drac_boy> posidon in that case..just go back to the game settings.. check vehicles ... and make sure 'autoreplace after xx months' is on .. then just wait for your planes to visit the hangers. and done
13:02:49  <drac_boy> unless you're out of cash
13:03:05  <posidon> how do I set that ? which panel ?
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13:03:16  <posidon> Im not out of cash .. have about 2 billion ;p
13:05:57  <xiong> posidon, Set autoreplace to -12 months, you'll be glad you did.
13:06:23  <xiong> Advanced Settings
13:06:45  <posidon> xiong is that in the actual game or do I need to set a setting towards that? .... now will Advanced settings still work in an online game?
13:07:16  <xiong> Dunno, never tried.
13:07:37  <posidon> is there a way of doing it... in game?
13:10:28  <posidon> okay I changed the settting in Advanced Settings, see if it does it in game ;p ill let you know
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13:10:59  <devedse> Hey all, I was just wondering, is openttd still being actively developped?
13:11:59  <devedse> and what the current things are you are working on :)
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13:16:02  <drac_boy> devedse oh I'm working on a generic grf set .. including some trains as well
13:16:08  <drac_boy> still trying to finish the data table tho -_-
13:19:51  <devedse> =]
13:22:51  <drac_boy> devedse how about you?
13:23:48  <devedse> I'm not programming on openttd :P
13:26:08  <drac_boy> I didn't meant that :p
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13:48:19  <supermop> hello!
13:50:22  <supermop> drawing tracks is so tedious
13:50:48  <drac_boy> heh
13:50:51  <supermop> i decided to draw one set of false color rails and just replace color for each type
13:51:18  <supermop> but the slopes , the sloped downward away from you views are so hard to make look good
13:51:21  <supermop> as is balast
14:04:02  <supermop> can track specify a different ground tile?
14:07:08  <zxbiohazardzx> yes, see NA roads?
14:07:27  <zxbiohazardzx> they use artic grass even in temerate
14:07:27  <supermop> ok
14:08:25  <supermop> i want ballast to be on the ground instead, so that two parallel tracks have connected ballast
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14:09:28  <zxbiohazardzx> not sure it detects tracks on other side :P
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14:10:30  <Rienzilla> Hey there. I just installed openttd 1.2.0 on macos (although the about screen says !!!REVISION!!!). I copied the windows transport tycoon sound files to, which makes the souds work. However I also copied the files from the gm/ folder on the Transport tycoon cd to the same baseset folder, but I hear no music. What did I fail to do :)
14:11:21  <zxbiohazardzx> did you try opensfx?
14:11:50  <Rienzilla> no, should I?
14:12:03  <zxbiohazardzx> see if that works :p
14:12:48  <Rienzilla> did I copy it in the correct location? The wiki and the readme seem to have a different opinion :)
14:16:00  <drac_boy> rienzilla I dunno, I just put it in the data folder
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14:16:19  <Mazur> Did you have the volume sliders for effects and/or music high enough to hear anything?
14:17:01  <Rienzilla> I don't even have a data folder. The layout seems to be different on macos
14:17:46  <Mazur> Do you have a content_download folder?
14:18:08  <Mazur> Within in a .openttd folder?
14:18:27  <supermop> well if the ballast takes up the whole tile it doesnt need to detect neighbors
14:19:02  <Rienzilla> no
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14:20:31  <Rienzilla> the thing is, it seems that openttd _does_ detect that there are music files there, since I can select the original windows sound thing
14:20:39  <Rienzilla> but I just hear sounds, no music :)
14:21:43  <Mazur> Ah, that at least means the basic SFX are there.
14:21:54  <Mazur> the files should be in ~/Documents/OpenTTD/data
14:22:04  <Mazur> According to the README.
14:22:44  <andythenorth> is there any good reason industry production shouldn't be delegated to NoGo?
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14:23:42  <Mazur> And the (free) music is in OpenMSX you may have to download hat separately.  Put it where the OpenSFX file is.
14:25:30  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: could NoGo handle industry production, or is it a likely performance suck?
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14:34:11  <Belugas> hello
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14:36:01  <Rubidium> Rienzilla: it could also be that Apple broke music playback since 10.4
14:36:58  <Rubidium> I seem to remember some discussion about music not working on later versions of OSX
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15:23:15  <homer> can sumone tell me where the openttd cfg file is?
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15:26:43  <homer> anyone?
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15:31:34  <Neckel> hello
15:31:37  <Neckel> I need some help
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15:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> TrueBrain: could NoGo handle industry production, or is it a likely performance suck? <-- i don't think that will be possible
15:42:27  <Neckel> hello
15:42:28  <supermop> could nogo provide town/industry feedback
15:42:40  <supermop> what do you need help with?
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15:42:47  <Neckel> can some one help me with CentOS?
15:42:57  <supermop> no idea what that is
15:43:21  <andythenorth> linux-ish
15:43:33  <Neckel> I am trying to set up a dedicated server and CentOS is the OS of my VPS
15:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rhamphoryncus> Anybody know why openttd switches from tab to shift for fastforward when debug is enabled? <-- i guess some weird dev with an obscure system was annoyed about his game switching to fast forward on alt+tab and stuff. i think that is rather obsolete now that we have hotkeys.cfg
15:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Neckel: and what did you try so far?
15:48:00  <Neckel> I don't know how I install the openttd in the server...
15:48:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Neckel: so how do you install other programs on the server?
15:49:16  <Neckel> I have some files that I've foun here:
15:49:37  <Neckel> I don't know exactly...
15:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and have you looked at something like this yet?
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15:53:49  <Neckel> nope... but thanks =D
15:54:01  <Neckel> i never used linux before
15:54:39  <Neckel> und woher kommen Sie? Eddi|zuHause
15:54:58  <andythenorth> ho
15:55:12  <andythenorth> next FIRS release is blocked by only 2 tickets
15:55:13  <Neckel> :P
15:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not a problem, but if you don't tell us stuff we have difficulties to decide what you actually need help with
15:56:04  <Neckel> hehehehe... I am sorry, but I still have difficultties to define well my difficulties in linux :P
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16:05:02  <andythenorth> can I fix the 'scenario mode' in FIRS by deleting it?
16:05:18  <andythenorth> [it fails to work  currently]
16:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> what is that?
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16:09:47  <andythenorth> prevents industries opening / being constructed etc
16:09:52  <andythenorth> various horrible permutations
16:09:55  <andythenorth> doesn't work as coded
16:10:12  <andythenorth> [parameter]
16:10:45  <andythenorth> parameters are totally mysterious to me
16:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can you give me the affected lines?
16:13:57  <andythenorth> let's see
16:14:35  <andythenorth> 2 mins
16:14:53  <andythenorth> I'm not really sure what it's supposed to do
16:15:04  <andythenorth> so I have to figure that out first :)
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16:15:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "no industries at game start" can already be done by difficulty setting
16:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "no industries during gameplay" you can do by setting the appearance chances
16:19:25  <andythenorth>
16:19:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so... which parameter exactly are you talking about?
16:19:50  <andythenorth> I'm looking...
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16:20:27  <andythenorth> header.pnml has it as param 4 I think
16:21:03  <andythenorth> but I don't understand the relation between 'parameters' and 'parameters as entered by player'
16:22:02  <andythenorth> looks like templates/check_availability.pnml would handle this case
16:23:05  <andythenorth> hmm
16:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's the callback. appearance chance should be in the properties
16:23:09  <andythenorth> the bug report looks false
16:23:14  <andythenorth> the parameter works for me
16:23:40  <andythenorth> simply not true
16:24:29  <andythenorth> I have to run ffwd to test it a bit more ;P
16:24:45  <Eddi|zuHause> 		prob_random: 18; <--- this should be a PARAM_BLAH?18:0 or so
16:25:28  <Eddi|zuHause> 		prob_in_game: 4; <--- or alternatively this one
16:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on whether you want on game creation or after game creation
16:26:28  <andythenorth> afaict this parameter works fine on the availability cb
16:26:34  <andythenorth> the bug report is wrong
16:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it really shouldn't be in the callback
16:26:49  <andythenorth> really?
16:26:56  <andythenorth> I'm open to suggestion
16:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> don't use callbacks when the properties can do the same
16:27:30  <andythenorth> performance?
16:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> performance, semantics, ...
16:28:04  <andythenorth> what about code habitability? :P
16:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> if the property is 0, the game can abort early, while with a callback it has to do lots of stuff before
16:28:41  <andythenorth> hmm
16:28:45  <andythenorth> so how would that be coded?
16:28:51  <andythenorth> conditional skip sprites?
16:29:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ternary operator
16:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> like above
16:29:12  <andythenorth> new to me
16:29:28  <andythenorth> no industries opened in 10 years, I'm closing that report as wrong
16:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nml figures out the appropriate action 6 :)
16:29:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the report is about game creation
16:30:34  <andythenorth> the report is confusing :)
16:30:35  <andythenorth> and wrong
16:30:46  <andythenorth> the parameter prevents all the ways to open industry that I could think of
16:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe. but the code is still bad :)
16:31:10  <andythenorth> granted
16:31:22  <andythenorth> but I didn't write that and I'm not poking it
16:31:50  <andythenorth> is the ternary operator nml specific?  I should read about it
16:32:20  <andythenorth> YABCI
16:32:33  <andythenorth> a fair number of the FIRS bugs were closed as invalid
16:34:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ternary operator is "if a, then b, else c"
16:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> just as an expression, instead of a statement
16:34:30  <andythenorth> k
16:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so can appear nested within other operations
16:34:38  <andythenorth> I can read the logic fine, I just didn't know we had it
16:34:53  <Eddi|zuHause> most languages nowadays have it :)
16:35:07  <andythenorth> (c,b)[a]
16:35:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's a workaround :)
16:35:39  <andythenorth> same result :P
16:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the official python syntax is "b if a else c"
16:35:46  <andythenorth> so where is it in the nml docs?
16:36:05  <Eddi|zuHause> operators were hidden somewhere deep :)
16:36:20  <andythenorth> I thought it would be in 'expressions'
16:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it's indeed missing from
16:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, CETS is full of this :p
16:38:15  * andythenorth wonders what it compiles to
16:38:22  <andythenorth> probably an action 7?
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16:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> an action 6 usually
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16:40:13  <andythenorth> it's much more elegant than writing action 6 in nfo
16:40:24  <andythenorth> it's almost a plausible way to do economies in FIRS....
16:41:39  <petern> I wonder if there's such a thing as a decent android port...
16:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- anyone can verify the correcntess of that edit?
16:51:53  <globester> hrm, some of my coal trains aren't fully unloading :/
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16:52:29  <globester> any ideas why that could happen?
16:53:17  <Eddi|zuHause> globester: a coal mine in reach of the dropoff station?
16:53:59  <Terkhen> hello
16:54:10  <globester> 16 tiles apart yeah
16:54:34  <globester> does that cause the trains not to only partially unload?
16:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> globester: use "unload and no loading" option in that case
16:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> globester: it causes your trains to load coal from that mine, which cannot be unloaded at the same station it was loaded from
16:55:15  <globester> ah yeah
16:55:48  <globester> i tried the unload and no loading, but then the coal was waiting at the station
16:56:17  <globester> is that a problem, or will the trains still make the same money?
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16:57:01  <Eddi|zuHause> globester: well, that is "dead" coal from this mine. you can ignore it. the trains will still unload the "real" coal from the other mines
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16:57:22  <globester> ah ok, so that coal will fade away in time
16:57:24  <globester> ok, cheers
16:58:05  <globester> i guess it's conflicting with the station spread setting or something
17:00:00  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
17:00:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: reading nml src might confirm it? :)
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17:11:03  <Alberth> evenink
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17:14:17  <Alberth> hi supermop
17:14:36  <supermop> hi
17:14:41  <supermop> whats up Alberth
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17:14:55  <Alberth> wondering about the quietness here
17:15:06  <Alberth> but perhaps the evening is still too young :)
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17:17:16  <supermop> ah
17:17:28  <supermop> i want to write a bridge spec wish list
17:17:45  <supermop> but i am not i know enough about what is and is not possible for that
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17:18:43  <Alberth> hmm, even wishes have to be feasible? :)
17:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: in which world can you only wish for what's possible?
17:19:12  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: openttd newgrf spec world?
17:19:18  <supermop> well i dont want it to come across as too silly
17:20:00  <supermop> im not sure what is down to someone implementing things in a new version of nml or nfo, and what requires serious patching of ottd
17:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: specs may contain stuff that aren't actually implemented
17:20:45  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: in general, the spec should have action1/2/3 support for bridges
17:20:56  <Alberth> supermop: I would not worry too much about that first
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17:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the design decision is whether you can only specify "linear" bridges, or also "flexible" bridges (curves, junctions, etc.)
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17:21:33  <supermop> should it go in newgrf technical forum, or ottd suggestions forum?
17:21:34  <petern_> Did I mention that I have a patch for that?
17:21:57  <Alberth> supermop: assuming you aim for implementation, the former
17:22:15  <supermop> i want to avoid curvy bridges in my list so as to get people to take me seriously
17:22:18  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: then from the spec point of view you need to define variables that should be available (bridge length, position in bridge, height above ground, ...)
17:22:26  <supermop> yeah
17:22:34  <petern_> Hehe, uint16 GetBridgeCallback(...)
17:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maybe you want to split it in "bridge" and "bridge tile" stuff, like industries?
17:24:40  <supermop> maybe
17:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: if you limit yourself to "linear" bridges, then you might want to prepare your spec that the bridge need not necessarily end on a bridge head (but could also end on a bridge in a different direction), which may provide extensibility for curvy bridges
17:25:13  <supermop> is it best to write 'i wish i could do these things' or to write ' a call back for this should be available'
17:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (but not really for junctions on bridges)
17:30:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: it is quiet because....?
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17:31:02  <Alberth> nobody said anything, or did we run out of question marks?
17:32:11  <petern_> Hmm, I wonder what "foo7.diff" is...
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17:32:35  <andythenorth> probably roadtypes
17:32:38  <andythenorth> quak
17:32:45  <Alberth> quek
17:32:50  * andythenorth was quiet due to actually doing stuff
17:32:53  <andythenorth> like child maintenance
17:33:00  <andythenorth> taught him to stand on his head
17:33:05  <andythenorth> also redrawing FIRS
17:33:16  <Alberth> re-drawing?
17:33:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... need a powerful enough grammar for specifying the livery of a vehicle
17:33:21  <Belugas> changing diapers, fooling around with goooo and gaaaaa and guiliguili
17:33:36  <andythenorth> Alberth: tweaking FIRS
17:33:52  <andythenorth> Belugas: the nappies go by at an insane rate :P
17:33:54  <Alberth> hi sir B
17:34:00  <Belugas> :)
17:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> * a livery consists of a "shape" and a "colour".
17:34:05  <Belugas> hello king Alberth!
17:34:07  <andythenorth> seems like all my life I'm staring into a nappy
17:34:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: apply gestalt theory ;)
17:34:23  <andythenorth> might help, might not
17:34:32  <frosch123> evening kids
17:34:33  <Alberth> or us a GLR parser :p
17:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> * "shape" may be "open", "round roof", "flat roof", "cylinder"
17:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause> * "colour" may be "traffic red", "ocean blue", ...
17:35:00  <Belugas> sir frosch123 :)
17:35:12  * Belugas likes been called kid again!
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17:35:50  <Alberth> come play with us, we have a garden full of openttd source codes to play with
17:35:56  <andythenorth> hmm
17:36:01  * andythenorth has lost the BANDIT spec
17:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> * both shape and colour may be split into sections, i.e. shape [length-wise]: 80% round, 20% flat roof. colour [height-wise]: 60% green, 40% red
17:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> all that formulated in a way so one can define multiple liveries in one cell of a table
17:37:44  <andythenorth> so I ended up with stuff like "trailer-0_2-body_tipping_4px-light_grey-3_8-bulk-corn_yellow.png"
17:37:46  <Belugas> Alberth, that's tempting
17:38:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ in that case the 'livery' is 'light_grey'
17:38:15  <andythenorth> and the gestalt uses that as a key to look up liveries
17:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no
17:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the upper half is green, the lower half is red
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17:38:59  <andythenorth> so what problem are you trying to solve?
17:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so 50% white, 10% red, 30% white, 10% black will result in something roughy resembling an IC wagon
17:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause>
17:39:53  <andythenorth> yes
17:40:00  <andythenorth> although I'd probably encode it myself
17:40:31  <andythenorth> ic = [5px white, 1px red, 3px white, 1px black]
17:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in pixa talk, this would define the colour entries in the PixaSequence
17:40:46  <andythenorth> yes, depending on your approach
17:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. only this line will be read from the tracking table
17:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so one abstraction layer higher
17:41:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24149 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
17:41:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:41:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 10 changes by habell
17:41:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 12 changes by Rubidium
17:41:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 18 changes by OliTTD
17:41:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 13 changes by telk5093
17:41:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 12 changes by wojteks86
17:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if i only wanted the colour, i could probably reuse the syntax from the graphics selection. i.e. "date:(default:sax,1924..1928:DRGearly,>=1929:DRG)" turns to "livery1:(5:white,1:red,3:white,1:black)"
17:43:11  <andythenorth> sounds plausible
17:43:22  <Eddi|zuHause> but i want to put the shape in there as well
17:43:29  <andythenorth> depends if you want to encode much inside pixa gestalts, or just abstract everything away
17:43:39  <andythenorth> pixa is already capable of fairly baffling abstractions :P
17:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. but this is not about pixa capabilities
17:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i want to encode all pixa-relevant things into the tracking table
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17:44:31  <andythenorth> everything via the tracking table
17:44:33  <andythenorth> oh you said that :P
17:44:37  <andythenorth> makes sense
17:44:44  <andythenorth> one place and one place only
17:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the shape thing is basically something like a steam engine: the boiler is round, and the cabin is a box
17:45:19  <andythenorth> I think you'll have a headache if you try and encode complex sequences there, e.g. cargos and such
17:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly adding details later
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17:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no, cargo can be handled separately
17:45:44  * andythenorth prepares to watch Eddi|zuHause spend one year going slowly insane :)
17:45:55  <andythenorth> are you aiming for 'final' graphics, or 'proxy' ?
17:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> "proxy", for now
17:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but with increasing levels of detail
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17:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: whether cargo graphics should be added would be an intrinsic property of the shape. i.e "flat" will add cars/steel/whatever, "open" would add grain/ore/coal/...
17:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo colours are of no concern to the vehicle
17:47:42  <andythenorth> yes, that makes total sense
17:48:01  <andythenorth> it's not the same as my approach but I see the logic
17:48:04  <andythenorth> think it will work
17:49:05  <andythenorth> it's slightly cleaner than BANDIT
17:49:22  <andythenorth> I have a silly step (as yet unsolved) where I have to extract filenames from nfo for pixa
17:49:47  <Alberth> is that so difficult?
17:49:50  <andythenorth> no
17:49:54  <andythenorth> it's just a bit odd
17:50:04  <andythenorth> I'm using the 'odd' route because it's blunt-force effective and simple :P
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17:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still nowhere at defining the shape and colour in the same line
17:59:09  <andythenorth> hard problem :P
18:01:09  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:01:17  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: An album by the Foo Fighters.
18:01:39  <Alberth> shape [length-wise]: 80% round, 20% flat roof. colour [height-wise]: 60% green, 40% red    shape_8r2f;colour_6g4r  ?
18:01:45  <Prof_Frink> Oh wait, that's the colour and the shape
18:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i know something.
18:03:21  <Alberth> hmm, that sounds serious :p
18:03:25  * andythenorth low battery, biab
18:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> byob :)
18:05:27  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
18:05:46  *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@] has joined #openttd
18:06:13  <andythenorth_> Phone irc :p
18:06:16  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
18:07:50  <SpComb> you're doing it wrong
18:08:03  <SpComb> you're supposed to ssh in to an irssi somewhere
18:08:12  <supermop> any critiques?
18:08:13  <supermop>
18:08:14  <andythenorth_> Its like the future :p
18:09:11  <Prof_Frink> SpComb: One does not simply ssh into irssi
18:09:26  <frosch123> supermop: it would be easier readable if it contained a few bullet points instead of plain text only
18:09:42  <SpComb> Prof_Frink: chsh /usr/bin/irssi
18:09:59  *** TWerkhoven [] has joined #openttd
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18:10:19  <Prof_Frink> There should be a screen or similar somehwere in the mix.
18:10:29  <SpComb> irssid
18:10:30  <andythenorth_> When do industries get to plant over-buildable newobjects?
18:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: after trafficobjects :)
18:12:59  <supermop> ok
18:14:29  <andythenorth_> A
18:17:45  <supermop> edited
18:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i just read "oh, A, excited"... must be the insanity kicking in :p
18:20:55  <supermop> edited again
18:21:03  <supermop> added two new points/wishes
18:21:26  <supermop> i believe you used to speak of ponies, andy...
18:21:56  <andythenorth_> Pony express :p
18:23:05  <supermop> anyway please let me know if any of my ideas are stupid, or if you have better ones
18:27:19  <TrueBrain> [16:30] <andythenorth> TrueBrain: could NoGo handle industry production, or is it a likely performance suck? <- it has been said that NoGo does the bigger picture, where NewGRFs control the individual entities. So Industry production is NewGRF basically :)
18:27:31  <TrueBrain> (at least, that is how NoGo is designed atm; things can ofc change)
18:27:58  <TrueBrain> so to answer the question: 'could': yes
18:28:02  <TrueBrain> do we want it: atm, no
18:32:20  <blathijs> Hmm, bah, my trains are getting lost again :-S
18:32:36  <blathijs> I have this feeling of dejavu from the last time I played a bit of OpenTTD
18:33:01  <blathijs> A bunch of coal trains are reversing halfway a line, for no apparent reason
18:33:11  <blathijs> I suspect there is some config wrong, but I can't figure out what
18:34:42  *** flaa [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:35:26  <blathijs> Ah! I remember
18:35:36  <blathijs> My new tracks don't have catenaries...
18:36:20  <blathijs> I guess that would be a useful feature: Select electric rails automatically when you have any electric vehicles or tracks
18:37:16  <Rubidium> blathijs: it selects the one you got most of, or the latest, or the first, or whichever one you configure
18:37:50  <andythenorth_> Truebrain i think there are compelling reasons to take industry code out of newgrf  to nogo
18:37:52  <blathijs> I think I removed my .openttd/config at some point, or is this in the savegame?
18:38:11  <supermop> andythenorth_: make powerplants do something
18:38:22  <supermop> thats a job for nogo
18:38:23  <Rubidium> blathijs: it's configuration file
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18:38:50  <frosch123> andythenorth_: you need an interface :p
18:38:59  <blathijs> "the one you got most of" sounds nice, but apparently that doesn't work
18:39:16  <andythenorth_> Don't want one :p
18:39:28  <andythenorth_> Want newgrf to go away
18:39:34  <frosch123> nogo can do nothing about industries as long as newgrf cannot state what they are about
18:39:55  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: there's also a "highest" option
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18:40:13  <supermop> nogo checks power plant production (how do you measure production?) then boosts industry production, town growth, and/or new industry spawning
18:40:21  <andythenorth_> Hence remove newgrf industry
18:40:30  <andythenorth_> Do it in nogo
18:40:34  <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: nobody has brought them forward :D
18:40:45  <supermop> aluminum plants prefer to be near a productive power plant
18:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: can't do graphics in nogo
18:40:52  <frosch123> andythenorth_: stop these silly generalisations
18:41:10  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: even worse, can't do cargo processing in nogo
18:41:22  <andythenorth_> Why not?
18:41:23  <Rubidium> blathijs: maybe it's only the first time you open the toolbar and then it's always the last selected one
18:41:25  <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: in other words: please do share those compelling reasons, as we havent seen them yet ;)
18:41:57  <frosch123> andythenorth_: try it, write a patch :p
18:42:02  <andythenorth_> 1. Reduced false bug reports
18:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i think he just doesn't understand his code anymore, and wants to do something from scratch instead :)
18:42:27  <andythenorth_> 2. Industries linked to goals
18:42:49  <TrueBrain> how about this: make a thread :D
18:43:00  <andythenorth_> 3. Players can write their own scripts
18:43:20  <TrueBrain> as atm you are just naming the things NoGo does; not really compelling reasons to start micromanging industries :P
18:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> can't define cargos in nogo either
18:43:54  <andythenorth_> It's going to keep being requested....
18:44:04  <TrueBrain> many features are being requested over and over
18:44:10  <TrueBrain> that doesnt make it a good idea or wanted behavoir :)
18:44:27  <TrueBrain> but, we are not against change; just make a thread and clearly outline what would benefit, and who would be hurt
18:44:29  <andythenorth_> Phone keypad is not helping me make the case properly :p
18:44:39  <TrueBrain> IRC is not helping either :D
18:44:55  *** supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
18:45:03  *** flaa [] has joined #openttd
18:45:10  <TrueBrain> (Examples of patches that are rejected every blue moon: copy/paste, drag&drop reserve land, ... ;))
18:46:35  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
18:46:40  <andythenorth> real keyboard ftw
18:46:43  <TrueBrain> hehe :D
18:46:45  <TrueBrain> wb :D
18:46:52  <Alberth> there is some middle ground here; I agree nogo should do big overview, and newgrf the individual industry, but somewhere you need to turn big overview into concrete industries, and neither nogo nor newgrf is the proper place
18:47:02  <andythenorth> nogrf
18:47:12  <andythenorth> newgo
18:47:42  <andythenorth> every time I go work on newgrf industry, I end up concluding that newgrf industry basically sucks
18:47:53  <andythenorth> which I know is rude and ungrateful, but it's my conclusion
18:48:00  <andythenorth> and I have the second biggest industry set :P
18:48:09  <andythenorth> so I've explored a bit :)
18:48:31  <andythenorth> that doesn't make NoGo the solution
18:48:31  <Alberth> but a first step could be to extend the industry newgrf spec like frosch123 says, so an industry can state it has no interest in control, or that it is listening to openttd
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18:48:37  <andythenorth> and shouting 'NoGo' is silly I admit
18:48:42  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: and I dont disagree ;)
18:49:00  <andythenorth> so problems with industries include:
18:49:08  <fonsinchen> you could have the newgrf define cargos, graphics, industry types, but forbid defining production change algorithms
18:49:22  <fonsinchen> As long as no script is given some default would be running
18:49:37  <fonsinchen> a script could change industry production by its own means.
18:49:52  <Alberth> imho production change is not the biggest issue imho, it
18:49:54  <andythenorth> I refuse to work with that way
18:49:58  <Alberth> 's more about close/open
18:50:05  <andythenorth> (1) I have to provision loads of crap just to make gameplay sane, e.g. parameters to prevent industry opening etc
18:50:22  <andythenorth> (2) I have to try and fix the known-broken closure routine
18:50:23  <fonsinchen> handle closing and opening the same as production change
18:50:28  <andythenorth> (3) I can't do anything with towns
18:50:47  <andythenorth> (4) I shouldn't do anything with towns, because it conflicts with town sets
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18:51:11  <andythenorth> (5) I can't ensure industries get created at a certain date (maybe I can now cb22 is extended)
18:51:15  <andythenorth> (but I didn't test yet)
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18:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you can't rely on the presence of a script to handle opening/closing either
18:51:40  <andythenorth> hence I think we agree NoGo is not the obvious answer
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18:51:51  <fonsinchen> default would be like stock openttd
18:52:03  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: it's yet more bug reports
18:52:04  <fonsinchen> there is some industry opening/closing algorithm built in
18:52:23  <fonsinchen> why? ppl are used to it ...
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18:52:42  <Alberth> andythenorth: perhaps think from the other end, what does an industry want from its environment/openttd?
18:52:56  <andythenorth> (1) to get created on the map
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18:53:11  <andythenorth> (2) to be located according to certain conditions
18:53:30  <andythenorth> (3) to be able to include a station(? mayeb)
18:53:46  <andythenorth> (4) to be influenced by or exert influence on neighbouring things
18:53:59  <andythenorth> not convinced 4 matters really
18:54:04  <andythenorth> except for electricity
18:54:21  <andythenorth> (5) to be closed according to certain conditions
18:55:15  <andythenorth> industry doesn't care about production changes from the environment, but NoGo might
18:55:22  <Zuu> It may want to get to know of global trends etc. Eg if it is recession or if there is a trend for people to buy more books and wodden furniture.
18:55:42  <andythenorth> depends how far we want to go
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18:55:56  <andythenorth> it might want to know how many of it's cargo packets got delivered, where, and what the spot price for them was
18:56:06  <andythenorth> it's / its /s
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18:56:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24150 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix (r24149): missing WT3 validation
18:57:14  <Alberth> trends make nice game problems, where you have to adapt your liveries to new trends
18:57:25  <Zuu> If production changes are all moved to NoGo or outside of the industry, then it doesn't need to know about global economy changes.
18:57:50  <andythenorth> give me python, I'll make a global industry controller :P
18:57:57  <andythenorth> it would be called 'economy' :P
18:58:06  * Alberth offers squirrel :p
18:58:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24151 /trunk/src/script/api/script_vehicle.hpp: -Fix: typo in script documentation
18:58:43  * andythenorth wonders if it's sane to have an 'economy' script running alongside a 'goals' script
18:59:05  <andythenorth> in railroad tycoon there are 3 layers: transport, economy, goals
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18:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think this is overcomplicated
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19:00:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: plausible
19:01:38  <andythenorth> overcomplicated = undesirable goal for game?
19:01:46  <andythenorth> or overcomplicated = silly implementation ideas
19:01:47  <andythenorth> ?
19:02:15  <Zuu> There should be some default economy in OpenTTD. Eg. the current default, then a NoGo could override it for individual industries if it likes to include them in a goal idea.
19:02:24  *** Pixa [] has joined #openttd
19:02:25  <fonsinchen> we basically have graphics, behaviour and script. graphics and behaviour are done in newgrf, script is done in squirrel. The problem is that behaviour can invoke graphics, but script cannot invoke behaviour.
19:02:48  <andythenorth> the reason for that defined interface
19:03:06  <Zuu> which could be fixed? :-)
19:03:07  <andythenorth> and the reason for no defined interface is....newgrf spec doesn't go that way
19:03:13  <andythenorth> Zuu: no
19:03:18  <andythenorth> not reliably
19:03:25  <andythenorth> could be fixed unreliably
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19:03:28  <fonsinchen> Furthermore behaviour is doing is own thing in an uncontrolled way, which maybe it shouldn't.
19:03:48  <andythenorth> explain...:)
19:04:00  <fonsinchen> One could deliver scripts bundled with newgrf sets and define an interface for them to invoke newgrf behaviour.
19:04:22  <andythenorth> script or scripts?
19:04:23  <fonsinchen> Then forbid newgrfs to act on their own without being prompted for it.
19:04:41  <fonsinchen> "script" is the concept, "scripts" are the implementations
19:04:52  <andythenorth> n scripts running in a game?
19:05:11  <fonsinchen> if the user chooses so.
19:05:15  <andythenorth> i.e. something not NoGo
19:05:18  <andythenorth> a third system?
19:05:26  <Rubidium> nono?
19:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the design decision for nogo was that only one script may be active at the same time
19:05:31  <andythenorth> nonono
19:05:31  <fonsinchen> Maybe bundled scripts could only invoke behaviour of newgrfs bundled with them.
19:05:40  <andythenorth> onono
19:05:52  <fonsinchen> script would have the same interface as nogo
19:06:23  <andythenorth> can we try and describe the interface?
19:06:47  <andythenorth> in terms of verbs perhaps
19:07:02  <andythenorth> e.g. 'close'
19:07:14  <fonsinchen> you'd have a script bundled with a newgrf industry set
19:07:37  <fonsinchen> on the industries belonging to the set the script could invoke "open", "close", "more", "less"
19:07:43  <andythenorth> it's going to become horribly apparent that I don't understand NoGo in about 2 mins
19:07:51  <fonsinchen> furthermore it could examine other game objects but not change them.
19:07:58  <andythenorth> +1
19:08:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: i have a solution! drop support for maps bigger than 256x256
19:08:29  <frosch123> that fixes 90% of issues for sure
19:08:31  <frosch123> :p
19:08:35  <andythenorth> 512x256 or 256x512 :P
19:08:40  <andythenorth> choose one!
19:08:46  <andythenorth> refuse the other
19:08:56  <Rubidium> 128x128 is more than enough
19:08:57  <zxbiohazardzx> 512x256
19:09:09  <andythenorth> let's fork!
19:09:13  <fonsinchen> 640x640 should be enough for anyone ...
19:09:17  <andythenorth> and only maintain the 'small map' version
19:09:27  <andythenorth> let some other idiots do the bigger stuff
19:09:34  <andythenorth> perhaps not
19:09:45  <frosch123> the problem about the open and closure discussion is that players tend to play on maps so big that they only use 1% of the industries and are annoyed about the changes of the other 99%
19:10:01  <andythenorth> so also the interface needs things like 'pre_announce_closure(days)'
19:10:15  <andythenorth> oh that needs a cb handler too
19:10:28  <andythenorth> to see if the closure should happen or not
19:10:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: make start with stuff like, that the newgrf industry can rate its environment
19:10:52  <andythenorth> and it needs multiple cb handlers, because multiple closure conditions can be in force
19:10:56  <globester> what do you normally play on? 256x256?
19:10:59  <frosch123> a mixture of: i have enough cargo, there are friendly neighbours
19:11:05  <Zuu> andythenorth: so the industry newgrf should still be able to veto closure using a callback?
19:11:12  <andythenorth> Zuu: no
19:11:15  <andythenorth> the script does
19:11:28  <andythenorth> the cb handler is just fired when the closure event is reached
19:11:28  <Zuu> For NoGo, there aren't callbacks, there are events which the script may listen to at some point in the future.
19:11:35  <frosch123> next item could be: how dynamic is a industry: a farm only changes stuff once a year, a processing factory could more often
19:11:42  <Zuu> The only exception to this rule is the Save function.
19:11:44  <andythenorth> Zuu: you can't bind a handler to the event?
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19:12:01  <Zuu> andythenorth: You are responsible for polling the event system.
19:12:03  <frosch123> next you need to distinguish single industries and industrytypes
19:12:08  <Zuu> Which you only need to do if you want to.
19:12:34  <frosch123> a industrytype could say stuff like: there should be twice as much industries of this type compared to that type, but after 1970 it shall vanish
19:12:37  <Zuu> But you have to code the mechanism that pause your current task and check the events every now and then.
19:13:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: nogo is no stateless machine. it has no interrupts either. it is only a single sequential program
19:13:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: classes / instances for industries :P
19:13:55  <Zuu> Thus, a script can't be trusted to go imediate response.
19:14:03  <Zuu>  /go/give/
19:14:20  <frosch123> you could use nogo for a bureoucracy driven economy
19:14:30  <frosch123> deliver cargo, wait 5 years for it being processed
19:14:33  <andythenorth> he
19:14:50  <frosch123> script events are only pile of sheets on a table
19:15:04  <frosch123> and the script decides when it want to pull one sheet from the bottom
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19:15:35  <andythenorth> hmm
19:15:48  <Zuu> frosch123: Good explanation :-)
19:15:54  <andythenorth> sounds like a stack :P
19:16:20  <andythenorth> so you can't simply bind functions to events, or rebind them dynamically?
19:16:47  <andythenorth> nvm
19:17:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24152 /trunk/src/script/api/script_vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#5157]: [NoAI] Do not return the last 'cached' speed of vehicles when they are stopped/crashed
19:17:52  <Zuu> Some AIs/GSs use a event based program paradigm, where their code that pulls a sheet from the paper pile will call the function responsible for handling that paper. However, the script still need to call the function that pulls papers from the pile in order to have events processed.
19:17:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24153 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: -Fix [FS#5160]: [Squirrel] Crash when trying to create an array with negative size
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19:18:39  <andythenorth> so fundamentally, no way for a script to trigger some internal process in an industry and have a result come back (later)
19:19:27  <andythenorth> I don't think this really matters tvh
19:19:29  <andythenorth> tbh
19:19:58  <Eddi|zuHause> if at all, the industry would read some script-data in the production callback. not the other way round
19:20:38  <Zuu> Technically it is not impossible to have OpenTTD call callback-functions in the script code. This is how the metadata is delivered to OpenTTD and how the save-system work. However, using this for industry callbacks may open a can of worms with potential issues where a script can hang OpenTTD for example.
19:21:15  * andythenorth ponders
19:21:44  <andythenorth> cases like 'supply electricity to town' are probably quite different to 'close industries on the map selectively'
19:21:48  <Rubidium> eventually the callback will be crashed
19:21:49  <Zuu> I would believe that this callback function for example must return in order to compleete the curernt tick.
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19:23:54  <andythenorth> ach, it's complicated
19:23:59  <andythenorth> too much interacting :P
19:24:45  <andythenorth> I can't get my head around it
19:25:21  <Zuu> What do work is that a script calls a API that calls a cb in a NewGRF and then responds. So they could talk with each other as  long as the script asks the question.
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19:25:43  <andythenorth> NoGo with a random map, with an unknown industry grf, with unknown town grfs
19:25:57  <andythenorth> and we need to try and ensure good reliable bug-free gameplay
19:26:19  <andythenorth> whilst respecting wishes of NoGo author, players map and advanced settings, and newgrf authors wishes
19:27:13  <andythenorth> too many combinations :P
19:28:14  <Alberth> you cannot cover all of them to their everybodies satisfaction, probably
19:28:53  <andythenorth> something has to give
19:29:01  <andythenorth> someone...has to lose
19:29:06  <frosch123> [21:24] <Eddi|zuHause> if at all, the industry would read some script-data in the production callback. not the other way round <- either that, or the other way around: the industry stores some information for the script
19:29:08  <Alberth> just like 'authors' probably don't want to deal with everything that could happen
19:29:53  <Alberth> good night all
19:30:02  <Zuu> night Alberth
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19:33:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: what if NoGo was ignored for this?
19:34:01  <andythenorth> I don't mean 'remove NoGo'
19:34:20  <andythenorth> but currently each industry is mostly a black box to NoGo
19:34:52  <andythenorth>  but each industry is also a black box to other industries
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19:35:17  * andythenorth is trying to puzzle out having a separate script running industries
19:35:33  <andythenorth> which has an interface to NoGo
19:35:54  <andythenorth> and maybe we insist in the spec that certain interfaces *must* be implemented
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19:37:38  <andythenorth> so the industry script would happily run industries if left undisturbed
19:37:46  <andythenorth> but a NoGo script could make calls to it
19:37:55  <fonsinchen> the next guy will come around and ask for the same thing with towns
19:38:00  <fonsinchen> and then one with trains
19:38:02  <fonsinchen> and so on
19:38:03  <andythenorth> the industry script could also fire events to NoGo
19:38:20  <fonsinchen> that's why I proposed a more general approach
19:38:23  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: create a valid argument for one with trains?
19:38:32  <andythenorth> I don't understand the more general approach
19:38:35  <andythenorth> what is it?
19:38:44  <andythenorth> (respectfully)
19:38:45  <fonsinchen> oh, I want that engine only to be available if enough steel is produced
19:38:53  <andythenorth> k
19:38:58  <andythenorth> case made
19:39:12  <andythenorth>  but what's the more general approach?  That's just NoGo?
19:39:52  <fonsinchen> no, let newgrf authors bundle scripts with their grfs which can modify the grfs but only examine (and not modify) everything else
19:40:14  <fonsinchen> Problem is: what to do if global scripts want to modify the same objects
19:40:23  <fonsinchen> that should probably be forbidden then.
19:40:59  <fonsinchen> and I don't know if that is actually feasible, just a wild idea so far.
19:41:22  <andythenorth> your solution = my solution ;)
19:41:44  <Zuu> By default, industries are managed localy (be it the NewGRF or a specific Squirrel script), but a NoGo can also de-activate the local control and thus take over the control. This can't be vetoed by the local control.
19:42:00  <andythenorth> the global scripts can't modify the objects, they have to make a call to a defined interface on the industry script
19:42:12  <andythenorth> and the industry script may choose what to do with that
19:42:49  <andythenorth> but it has to implement the interface
19:43:17  <fonsinchen> industry scripts might simply get to intercept calls to industries and modify or block them as they like
19:43:23  <andythenorth> exactly
19:43:26  <fonsinchen> no need to define a separate interface then
19:43:40  <andythenorth> the interface would look like an extended version of current interface
19:43:48  <andythenorth> but current interface is not ideal
19:44:05  <andythenorth> hmm
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19:44:09  <andythenorth> maybe it's ideal enough
19:45:55  <fonsinchen> well, good night and good luck with that
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19:47:55  <supermop> andy, i was at lunch earlier, but what stops you doing what you want in the current state of affairs?
19:48:25  <supermop> nogo can grow towns i believe - is it just that it can't read data from industries?
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19:50:03  <Zuu> It can read industry production values, but it can't change industry production.
19:50:35  <supermop> thats fine by me
19:50:41  <supermop> so far
19:50:56  <Zuu> It can probably not open/close industries. (if it finds a player with lots of cach it might be able to fund an industry using the mony of that player)
19:51:26  <supermop> i guess it prevents the above case of needing power to run an arc furnace or aluminum plant
19:51:58  <supermop> can nogo not hold its own currency, in the place of a 'regional government'?
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19:52:46  <Zuu> NoGo can't get information about how much cargo that has been delivered to an industry. So unless the powerplant is changed so that it produces an electricity cargo, NoGo can't see that the power plant is supplied.
19:53:50  <supermop> can an industry produce something that is never transported?
19:54:03  <supermop> or
19:54:06  <supermop> what if
19:54:16  <supermop> lets keep things more or less the same
19:54:17  <supermop> but
19:54:19  <Zuu> If the NewGRF spec allow that a cargo type exist that no industry accepts.
19:54:24  <Rubidium> supermop: it can
19:55:55  <supermop> change industry spec to allow (but not require) optional flag readable by scripts or towns or AIs, whatever: industry is idle/industry is productive
19:55:55  <Zuu> With radical means it could block the steel mill with road tiles in a large enough radius until some condition is fullfilled.
19:56:22  <Zuu> It's not pretty, but its possible
19:56:33  <supermop> or idle/produce little/produce lots
19:57:56  <Zuu> there is one flag actually for the case when the stockpile is full. Or rather that the industry is not producing anything for the moment due to temporary issues.
19:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> for the industry closure i had a proposition once: the 5-year-protection counter should only start running after the associated town has a rating for at least one company
19:58:28  <Zuu> This one can be read by scripts.
19:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that should avoid emptying regions which have not been touched yet by the player
19:59:43  <Belugas> i had a patch for that
19:59:47  <Belugas> not :(
20:00:32  <Zuu> Hello Belugas
20:00:46  <Belugas> hello sir Zuu :)
20:00:59  <Zuu> :-)
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20:02:53  <supermop> ok
20:03:40  <supermop> then certain industry sets can use/abuse that flag for primitive town/industry integration
20:03:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's quite a nice suggestion
20:03:53  * andythenorth borrows newgrf city spec
20:04:19  <andythenorth> wonder if there's an 80+ var for it
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20:05:38  <supermop> can that flag somehow be thought of as idle/active/full? where both active and full might trigger certain actions in a certain script
20:06:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's probably a case for handling in openttd, not in the grf
20:06:47  <xiong> So, I come up against a game play issue, a strategy issue if you will; and can't seem to find a good solution. This is with FIRS and relates to a specific level of demand. By "specific", I mean that, for whatever reason, a station demands X tons/month of some cargo.
20:07:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's never going to happen :(
20:07:42  <andythenorth> 'everything must be done by newgrf'
20:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody ever said that :p
20:08:10  <andythenorth> for one, it might break existing grfs that rely on that behavour
20:08:49  <andythenorth> I like the suggestion
20:08:56  <xiong> Now superficially, any station accepting a cargo can take any amount of it. But there are good reasons to ration cargo under FIRS. A simple example is with Engineering Supplies. Ideally, 1 crate is delivered each month; in practice, a low-cap vehicle delivers, say, 4 every 21 days or thereabouts.
20:10:07  <xiong> That low-cap vehicle can be called a "pig". It loads and unloads at the same station; and ES is delivered there in bulk with a transfer order, so it's not used up all at one time.
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20:12:27  <xiong> The issue I face is matching the bulk delivery to the pig. There is not really any practical way to make an exact match. Either bulk runs short, the pig starves, and the served industry suffers; or bulk runs over and a huge backlog eventually builds up. Note that it doesn't matter how large the inequity: even a tiny imbalance leads eventually to one outcome or the other.
20:14:16  <xiong> I don't like the way I expressed that -- it's not matching the bulk to the pig or the pig to the bulk; it's not even feasible to bring them together exactly. The bulk must be delivered slightly in excess of the pig's consumption and a third mechanism must somehow consume any excess.
20:15:14  <andythenorth> xiong: do you have breakdowns on?
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20:16:09  <xiong> What in the world, andythenorth? You ask me the same question every day. Of course I have breakdowns on. I had them on yesterday; I'll have them on tomorrow. Surely that is the most irrelevant question in connection with bulk vs pig issues.
20:16:31  <andythenorth> is it?
20:16:44  <andythenorth> you describe a synchronisation problem
20:16:45  <xiong> I don't mean to be pissy but really. You guys design a game with fallible machines; I deal with it.
20:16:58  <andythenorth> you will have variance in your takt times between processes
20:17:03  <andythenorth> either eliminate the variance
20:17:08  <andythenorth> or accept waste of some form
20:17:20  <andythenorth> probably waste of inventory, or waste of waiting
20:17:37  <andythenorth> the problem is that you are not using one piece flow
20:17:48  <xiong> You cannot realistically eliminate all irregularities. I'm playing a train game; I'm not programming a computer.
20:17:54  <andythenorth> you are trying to integrate efficiently a bulk delivery and slightly-more-than-one-piece flow
20:18:04  <andythenorth> I used production language, not computing ;)
20:18:12  <andythenorth> the problem is *hard*
20:18:18  <xiong> Well, I always thought JIT was BS.
20:18:28  <andythenorth> it's not
20:18:38  <andythenorth> but it can be fragile
20:19:06  <xiong> I'm not concerned with the general issue of *roughly* matching bulk delivery to pig consumption; that's a matter of skill. But this cannot be done perfectly; therefore, the excess must be disposed of.
20:19:09  <andythenorth> but as long as the disruption is minor, lean/agile JIT is better adapted to adjust to disruption than some alternatives
20:19:24  <andythenorth> sell the excess to local partners :P
20:19:32  <andythenorth> oh, wait, there's no button for that
20:20:12  <supermop> oh man
20:20:24  <supermop> what about 4-sided foundations?
20:20:32  <xiong> Well, what I've been doing is to build a third vehicle. I've tried a couple approaches. One is a medium-cap that just quickly draws down inventory; I run it and stop it manually. This is a pain.
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20:20:54  <supermop> ie a foundation on flat ground
20:20:56  <xiong> supermop, Not possible. One corner at least must be at the correct height.
20:21:20  <supermop> as a hack for chaining bridges
20:22:22  <andythenorth> timetable one vehicle without full load, run another on full load?
20:22:26  <andythenorth> hmm
20:22:28  <xiong> The other approach is a high-cap vehicle that loads permissively, tests to see if it is full; and if it is full, then unloads; if not, then transfers. The theory here is that if total inventory exceeds the large capacity then some can be ditched.
20:22:29  <andythenorth> won't work :P
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20:23:14  <andythenorth> hmm
20:23:17  <xiong> The disagreeable part of that second scheme is dedicating a large, expensive vehicle to the trivial task.
20:23:42  * andythenorth wonders if you can mask the inventory by having it in transit, thereby hiding it from your brain
20:23:45  <xiong> In real life, this type of task is not handled by a vehicle at all but by a warehouse manager.
20:23:55  <andythenorth> you are that person
20:24:04  <xiong> Don't be silly.
20:24:45  <xiong> By definition, the layout is not well-designed if it requires one to intervene just to keep it running properly.
20:24:58  <andythenorth> ah
20:25:03  <andythenorth> the automation fallacy :)
20:25:36  <andythenorth> if you eliminate all input variation this should be solvable
20:25:40  <andythenorth> what causes input variation?
20:25:42  <xiong> The correct function of a railroader is to design and build the layout and correct design issues as they come up. If I have to do it all myself I might as well play wooden trains and push them around by hand.
20:26:14  <xiong> I'm not talking about some sort of ideal perfection; but a robust design.
20:26:21  <andythenorth> so eliminate the variation
20:26:26  <andythenorth> what causes the variation?
20:26:27  <xiong> I loathe clockwork perfection.
20:26:34  <andythenorth> stop cleaning, eliminate the source of dirt
20:26:41  <xiong> We are not going to meet on this issue.
20:26:58  <andythenorth> that is somewhat of an assertion
20:27:05  <andythenorth> yet to be proved
20:27:05  <supermop> xiong: might want to use a different industry set then?
20:27:06  <xiong> You want to play without breakdowns and, I don't know what else you do, play on a huge map with dozens of tracks.
20:27:18  <xiong> No, supermop; I want to tackle the issue.
20:27:25  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: fwiw, I'm still enjoying engsup/farmsup with the patch.  I've simplified my approach and no longer use refit/autorefit.  Instead only the train directly loading from the primary has a couple engsup/farmsup cars and it drives through a transfer station on the way back
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20:28:00  <andythenorth> xiong: your tendency to make unevidenced assertions about me personally....makes it unrewarding to continue this discussion
20:28:01  <supermop> i like micromanaging
20:28:07  <andythenorth> which was otherwise interesting
20:28:10  <xiong> I assume that as a normal part of operation, trains will be delayed.
20:28:20  <Nat_aS> hello
20:28:32  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: that sounds more like the picture I originally had in mind for them
20:28:42  <andythenorth> they're just a layer of stuff that should happen without much effort
20:28:58  <xiong> When did it become interesting, andythenorth? You lost my interest the moment you suggested turning off breakdowns, which you did... some time ago. It's unrealistic. I don't even want to live in a perfect world; the thought makes my skin crawl.
20:29:17  <andythenorth> again, assertions
20:29:27  <Nat_aS> >Man I haven't played TTD in a while, I think I'll uninstall my copy of cargodist and download a new one
20:29:30  <zxbiohazardzx> well breakdowns in itsself arent bad, but try them on a huge map on "normal" settings
20:29:33  <xiong> Eh?
20:29:35  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: yeah.  The only drawback is without cargodist/YACD the transfer can get overloaded, but I've stopped caring.  Also, I suspect I can divert more of the metal towards goods and achieve a balance
20:29:37  <zxbiohazardzx> imo if you have breakdowns on reduced they are playable
20:29:38  <Nat_aS> >Wait, I didn't even check to see if a new one is out yet.
20:29:41  <Nat_aS> >Check
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20:29:48  <Nat_aS> >Last update was two days ago
20:29:50  <Nat_aS> SCORE!
20:30:46  <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, that is precisely the issue I've been talking about. Bulk transfers must run slightly over pig deliveries or the industry starves. What to do with the excess?
20:31:11  <andythenorth> xiong: I can't reconcile your goal to avoid perfection with your goal to avoid imperfection
20:31:34  <andythenorth> it's perfectly reasonable to hold multiple conflicting views
20:31:35  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: you have to realize that breakdowns a historical artifact.  They don't work well and very few people play with them.  As such catering them is a special case
20:31:51  <andythenorth> but it's not easy to reconcile those views neatly
20:31:57  <xiong> You don't get it, andythenorth. I'm not avoiding perfection; I'm trying to avoid an absurd overflow.
20:32:03  <andythenorth> k
20:32:13  <andythenorth> but I don't recall asking you to turn breakdowns off
20:32:16  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: overflow of the primary or of the transfer station?
20:32:58  <xiong> Overflow at the transfer. Bulk cannot, except in fantasy, be adjusted so as to exactly match pig consumption.
20:32:58  <andythenorth> if you have overflow, you either have unmatched vehicles, or variation
20:33:21  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: So transfer more to the farms
20:33:28  <zxbiohazardzx> breakdowns itself arent bad
20:33:30  <andythenorth> an effective way to eliminate the variation is to eliminate the input variation
20:33:32  <zxbiohazardzx> the settings just are insane
20:33:40  <zxbiohazardzx> the breakdowns are way to often for gameplay fun
20:33:42  <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, I don't follow you.
20:33:50  <zxbiohazardzx> reduced breakdown for me would be "high or normal"
20:33:51  <zxbiohazardzx> :P
20:34:16  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: a farm does NOT require *1*/month.  It requires *minimum* of 1/month.  That FIRS does nothing beyond that is because it's an unfinished feature
20:34:50  <supermop> breakdowns also need to be less absolute
20:34:51  <xiong> I've been using ES as an example. You want to use FS, that's okay, too. So I have a bulk train deliver FS to the farm on transfer; and a pig looping around at the farm station, picking up and dropping off -- actually unloading, so the FS is consumed by the farm.
20:35:24  <xiong> The actual rate of consumption might be 4 crates every 20 days.
20:35:32  <supermop> ie a MU or triple headed train should be able to continue to the next station
20:35:40  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: Scrap that.  The pig train, the one that loads at the farm, it should bring FS back with it.
20:36:09  <xiong> I don't think I'm being clear, Rhamphoryncus. By definition, a pig loads and unloads at the same station.
20:36:25  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, you're not using pig to refer to livestock
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20:36:42  <Rhamphoryncus> A dummy train then
20:36:44  <xiong> No, not at all. The low-cap vehicle is a "pig".
20:36:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Scrap it :)
20:37:11  <andythenorth> @calc 365.25/20
20:37:11  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 18.2625
20:37:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Your normal train that loads at the primary should bring FS/ES back with it
20:37:16  <xiong> No, it's essential. Otherwise, you have no choice but to drop the whole bulk load at once.
20:37:28  <Rhamphoryncus> So?
20:37:32  <andythenorth> @calc 18.2625*4
20:37:32  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 73.05
20:37:39  <andythenorth> @calc 73.05*4
20:37:39  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 292.2
20:37:46  <Rhamphoryncus> You bring back 1 wagon of FS/ES with each train
20:37:52  <andythenorth> so simply send one 292.2t train every 4 years
20:37:56  <andythenorth> where's the issue?
20:38:01  <andythenorth> set station rating to 100%
20:38:04  <xiong> "Back"? What back?
20:38:32  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: You have a train that loads at your primary, yes?
20:38:48  <xiong> Not sure what you mean by a "primary".
20:38:54  <andythenorth> xiong: your bulk delivery train is too big if you have excess
20:38:55  <Rhamphoryncus> farms, mines, etc
20:38:56  <andythenorth> make it smaller
20:39:12  <xiong> Okay, a primary industry. Currently, that's a farm.
20:39:39  <xiong> Actually, I usually have trams at farms; they're low producers.
20:39:57  <Rhamphoryncus> So 1 engine, 8 grain wagons, and 1 farmsup wagon
20:40:13  <Nat_aS> piglets and hoglets
20:40:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:40:31  <Nat_aS> are a metagame strategy right?
20:40:34  <xiong> The trams pick up, say, grain, and transfer it to a main station -- one that accumulates cargo for distant shipment.
20:40:52  <xiong> 8 grain wagons will take a very long time to fill.
20:41:06  <Nat_aS> feeders that go nowhere but instead trick the game into raising the station raiting.
20:41:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Can we pretend you're using trains for a moment, until you understand what I'm suggesting?  I'll explain a trick for RV's after
20:41:29  <xiong> Sure, Rhamphoryncus, GA.
20:41:34  <Nat_aS> i never managed to make them work though,
20:41:36  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: then do 4 grain and 1 farmsup
20:41:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: I use the FIRS parameter to always be 100%
20:42:09  <xiong> Nat_aS, transfer and take cargo; works like a charm. I call them "keepers". I have a keeper for each cargo at every station that handles it.
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20:42:49  <andythenorth> xiong: strategically, the piglet approach is convoluted
20:43:13  <andythenorth> why not just run small vehicles from the source to the consumer?
20:43:32  <xiong> Nat_aS, One subtle point is that each keeper needs a total of 4 orders: stop, depot, stop, depot -- where each stop is transfer and take and each depot is maintain at. This keeps you from getting alerts about "too few orders".
20:43:56  <Nat_aS> no I never got the alerts, I just never noticed any change in raiting
20:44:02  <Nat_aS> they didn't seem to do much
20:44:08  <xiong> Because the industry producing FS is on the other side of the map from the farm.
20:44:40  <xiong> In order to keep up a steady, monthly supply, dozens, perhaps hundreds of RVs are required.
20:44:54  <andythenorth> valid
20:45:22  <xiong> Nat_aS, keepers work very well. Not sure why you're having trouble. Look for something not working right.
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20:45:46  <Nat_aS> ... there is a cuba scenerio with FIRS... BUT, it's temperate
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20:45:56  <Nat_aS> WHY to people make maps of tropical places with temprate?
20:45:56  <xiong> I generally put keepers on small loops of road, off by themselves. I put down two truck stops and two depots.
20:46:13  <andythenorth> xiong: I remain unclear why you have incorrectly sized bulk delivery vehicles
20:46:33  <xiong> andythenorth, There is no correct size.
20:46:34  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: use a transfer station in between, perhaps the one you're using for the grain
20:46:44  <andythenorth> xiong: there is a correct size
20:47:19  <andythenorth> the size is: consumer requirement during vehicle round trip
20:47:20  <xiong> No; equality of measure in the real world is a fantasy. Every quantity is slightly larger or smaller than every other.
20:47:33  <Nat_aS> oh, it's also huge and lacking trees
20:47:34  <andythenorth> this is a fantasy world
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20:48:00  * Rhamphoryncus ponders making dummy game and screenshot to explain it to xiong
20:48:03  <xiong> You can get a very close match -- one might even say, one can get a match to within any desired degree of accuracy -- but there can never be exact equality.
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20:48:57  <andythenorth> yes there can
20:49:00  <andythenorth> it's simple maths
20:49:08  <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, no, I see your point; but I don't see how it helps. You still have bulk delivery to the main, intermediate, transfer station; and you still have a low-cap vehicle taking it away; and the rates of cargo movement can never match exactly. What do you do with the overflow?
20:49:23  <andythenorth> you work to prevent the overflow
20:49:34  <andythenorth> you have yet to explain why the solutions I offer can't work
20:49:36  <xiong> Then you get underflow, which is worse.
20:49:46  <andythenorth> so eliminate the cause of underflow
20:49:52  <xiong> You *cannot* get exact equality.
20:49:58  <andythenorth> because...?
20:50:41  <xiong> Because that demands absolute perfection in every single part.
20:51:00  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: don't use such low-cap the last step.  Make sure the frequency is good, then scale up the volume
20:51:15  <andythenorth> hmm
20:51:21  <xiong> You not only forbid breakdowns; you forbid multiple trains running on the same tracks, since they might delay your train.
20:51:24  <andythenorth> ok
20:51:32  <andythenorth> so let underflow be < 0
20:51:36  <andythenorth> and let overflow be > 0
20:51:38  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: also note that trying to get 1 on *every* month is not worth it.  Consider that to be another unfinished feature
20:51:41  <andythenorth> and 0 is unacceptable to you
20:51:50  <xiong> You forbid irregularities in delivery to the station that produces FS in the first place.
20:51:52  <andythenorth> but also < 0 is unacceptable to you
20:51:58  <andythenorth> and > 0 is unacceptable to you
20:52:07  <andythenorth> which leaves us with an unsolvable problem
20:52:14  <andythenorth> it's an interesting social behaviour
20:52:23  <andythenorth> but I should go and sleep
20:52:41  <xiong> I'm not a fool! I expect, desire, and plan for an excess. I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the excess when it becomes... excessive.
20:52:55  <Nat_aS> what's the console command to turn scenerio developer on?
20:53:03  <Nat_aS> I can't find the cfg file
20:53:20  <andythenorth> ah
20:53:24  <andythenorth> that is a good question
20:53:40  <andythenorth> patch station_cmd.cpp to eliminate cargo over a certain amount and age?
20:53:49  <xiong> What is wanted, precisely, is the ability to order a low-capacity vehicle to pick up *only* if the cargo waiting at station exceeds some *multiple* of capacity.
20:53:50  <andythenorth> it already ages and eliminates cargo somewhat I think
20:53:52  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: assuming your trains have 1 farmsup wagon, which carries 40 units, and you produce enough to run 3 such trains/month, then anywhere between 1 and 120 units of farmsup would be consumed
20:54:19  <xiong> Generally, I don't produce anywhere near that much, Rhamphoryncus.
20:54:40  <andythenorth> xiong: are you looking for a correct strategy on the assumption that the game world should contain one?  Or is this a feature request?
20:54:51  <xiong> All ES/FS beyond the 1 crate/month is wasted. You may get paid for it but you'd be better to divert the raw materials to produce something else.
20:55:47  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: it is NOT waste.
20:55:58  <xiong> andythenorth, if I'm going to make a feature request then it would be in the direction of more general programmability. Not just for this issue but for many otherwise unrelated issues.
20:56:18  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: it is waste without your patch
20:56:20  <Rhamphoryncus> Again, it's an unfinished feature.  You should deliver much more but it's currently not counted
20:56:58  <Rhamphoryncus> And it's harmless to deliver more
20:57:00  <andythenorth> xiong: so more accurately >0 may be acceptable to you, but > n is not, where n is some finite real number?
20:57:09  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: it's harmful if you're low on supplies on the map
20:57:14  <andythenorth> you should deliver it elsewhere
20:57:21  <andythenorth> depends on available quantities
20:57:28  <xiong> For instance, I find myself constructing fairly complicated order lists for vehicle after vehicle. These lists differ only in the particular stations; the conditional jumps and depoting are the same, the near/middle/far end is the same, the type of loading/unloading is the same.
20:58:11  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I had that problem when I tried to start with a biorefinery loop.  With a coal or oil based loop I've never had an issue of quantity
20:58:48  <xiong> So I'd like to be able to create such an order list /en blanc/ and store it, then instance it, supplying the actual stations involved.
20:58:55  <andythenorth> bed time
20:58:57  <andythenorth> good night
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20:59:01  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: I've done a few variations on SRNWs.  Although they worked I concluded that it wasn't a good way to play.  So I did something else
20:59:20  <V453000> not a good way to play, duh
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20:59:43  <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: I'm not talking about openttdcoop's style.  It scaled up much better than mine.
21:00:00  <V453000> does not matter :)
21:00:12  <frosch123> night
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21:00:19  <V453000> I also like it is small measures
21:00:29  <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, I can't seriously conceive of any layout that does not regulate itself. Any sort of manual intervention doesn't scale up well, does it?
21:01:22  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: what part requires manual intervention?  I already mentioned a range of 1..120
21:01:24  <xiong> You've got enough to do -- building new lines, upgrading old ones, dealing with the unexpected, making major adjustments.
21:02:26  <V453000> sure but you can make a circuit or a station which automatically regulates the amount of trains required by the industries
21:02:38  <V453000> of course you still have to expand tracks ... manually
21:02:52  <V453000> but even that can be quite automatized with SML ... shifter main line
21:03:14  <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: this conversation is actually about FIRS engsup/farmsup.  I only mentioned SRNW as an example of complex order lists I've done
21:03:18  <xiong> V453000, I'm not sure what viewpoint you're advocating.
21:04:02  <xiong> It's not just ES/FS. Any cargo that needs to be delivered monthly is subject to the same constraints.
21:04:05  <V453000> w/e carry on
21:04:18  <Rhamphoryncus> What other cargo is there in FIRS that's monthly?
21:04:19  <xiong> Here I have a Lime Kiln; it requires stone and coal each month.
21:04:28  <Rhamphoryncus> Naw, it doesn't *require* them
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21:04:56  <xiong> It's important that there's a monthly delivery of both; otherwise production is cut in half.
21:04:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Just build trains that supply both regular-ish
21:05:14  <Rhamphoryncus> If the occasional month is missed it's not a big deal
21:05:32  <xiong> No matter how you do it, you are going to wind up with an inequality somewhere.
21:06:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, follow me for a second
21:06:35  <xiong> Let's try to keep it to a single thing, since otherwise the discussion just wobbles all over. Here is a... kiln producing FS, we'll assume at a regular rate. Here is a farm consuming FS, at something over 1 crate a month.
21:07:16  <xiong> Now, it's impractical to run dozens of small vehicles from kiln to farm... it's a hundred tiles.
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21:07:52  <Rhamphoryncus> sure
21:07:56  <xiong> So a bulk vehicle must take FS at least part of the way. It's irrelevant whether this is half way or most of the way or all the way. From there, the small vehicle rations it out to the farm.
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21:08:35  <Rhamphoryncus> What kind of farm?
21:08:38  <xiong> Now, wherever the transfer is made -- halfway, most of the way, or right at the farm -- you will either get underflow or overflow. Underflow is unacceptable so the bulk must exceed the pig, period.
21:08:56  <xiong> Any farm; they all take FS. Let it be a forest if you like.
21:09:09  *** andythenorth_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:09:11  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, let's assume it's livestock.  Where are you delivering the livestock?
21:09:32  <xiong> That's irrelevant. I can't imagine how that figures in.
21:09:40  <Rhamphoryncus> Answer the question :P
21:10:16  <xiong> It's hypothetical; I don't have a stockyard in the hypothesis.
21:10:33  <Rhamphoryncus> You're in luck, I'm adding one
21:10:41  <xiong> I'll grant a stockyard and a line hauling livestock there. Done.
21:10:53  <Rhamphoryncus> Let's say it's a fair distance away and you have a train going to it
21:11:07  <xiong> Done.
21:11:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Or more specifically, several trains.  Short enough that they fill up twice a month
21:11:22  <Rhamphoryncus> (you can make them longer as production increases)
21:11:27  <xiong> No, sorry, that I can't buy.
21:11:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Too bad.  Shut up and listen until I'm done
21:11:51  <xiong> A farm just doesn't produce that much. It takes several months to fill up even a small train.
21:12:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Do I have to keep repeating or will you stop and listen?
21:12:29  <xiong> GA.
21:13:17  <Rhamphoryncus> The farm volume is annoyingly low to start, but that's another matter.  For the sake of this conversation just do what's necessary to be twice a month, even if it's only 1 wagon on the train
21:13:30  <xiong> Okay.
21:13:47  <Rhamphoryncus> So what you do is transfer the farmsup to the stockyard station
21:14:07  <Rhamphoryncus> Then the farm train, which is inherently timed by the farm itself, can have one or two farmsup wagons on it
21:14:57  <xiong> And there you're screwed right away, since one flatcar is going to haul at least 16 crates. So you're delivering 32 crates a month when only 1 is required.
21:14:58  <Rhamphoryncus> So whether  you deliver 1 farmsup or 50 that train can take them
21:15:06  <Rhamphoryncus> SUCK IT UP
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21:15:50  <Rhamphoryncus> The minimum is 1.  The maximum is infinite.  Anywhere in between is acceptable.
21:16:26  <xiong> No, I don't do that. I start in 1850; lately I've been starting with no-industry maps; and if the ones I need aren't given for free I have to fund them -- prospect in the case of primaries, which has a chance of failure. My ES/FS are *rare*. I can't afford to waste them carelessly.
21:16:58  <xiong> I failed *twice* to prospect for an Iron Mine and once for  Quarry. That hurts.
21:17:02  <Rhamphoryncus> That's your problem.  You're making the game painful, you find creative solutions.  Don't come bitching to us.
21:17:45  <Rhamphoryncus> After all it's only 1/month because it's an unfinished feature.  It should be 30/month in many cases
21:18:03  <xiong> Well, that's just what I've been doing... finding creative solutions. I don't know why you think I'm bitching. I haven't suggested that any part of this issue is related to a deficiency of the game.
21:18:40  <Rhamphoryncus> You implied it pretty strongly.  Perhaps unwittingly, but you did.
21:18:54  <xiong> It might help if you understand that I'm not interested in *developing* the game; I try to take it as it is. I discuss game play strategy.
21:19:22  <Rhamphoryncus> You've ignored pretty much everything that's been said to you
21:19:26  <xiong> <xiong> So, I come up against a game play issue, a strategy issue if you will; and can't seem to find a good solution....
21:19:47  <xiong> Everything that's been said is unrealistic, sorry.
21:20:07  <Rhamphoryncus> If you're not willing to accept the answers then don't ask the question
21:20:38  <xiong> I start in 1850 because it's absurd to conceive of a world in 1950 with no rail at all... and no intercity roads.
21:21:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Try playing with NUTS.  Should be fun to watch your head explode ;)
21:21:35  <xiong> Now I'm sorry but that's a pretty silly thing to say. If I ask "What's the square root of 2?" and you say "3"; and I fail to accept that answer; does that mean I was foolish to ask?
21:22:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Naw, I say 3 but you expected 10.. because you're assuming a context of base 3
21:22:41  <Rhamphoryncus> So nothing makes sense to your context, but makes perfect sense to everybody else
21:22:49  <xiong> I don't demand any answer at all, you know. I'm perfectly content to air an issue, discuss it, and leave without a resolution.
21:23:02  <Rhamphoryncus> err.. pretend the question actually had 3 of an answer ;)
21:23:32  <Rhamphoryncus> The point is: our answers are perfectly fine, it's your question that's wrong
21:23:36  <xiong> Look, if you want to overdeliver, that's fine.
21:23:47  <xiong> I don't, that's all.
21:23:56  <Rhamphoryncus> If you don't like overdeliverying go play ECS
21:23:57  <xiong> Why so hostile?
21:24:25  <Terkhen> good night
21:24:38  <xiong> Questions don't come in "wrong" varieties.
21:24:44  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm frustrated because you're claiming my answers (and andy's answers) are wrong
21:25:01  <xiong> I'm not even quite sure that I came here asking a question. What I said was, here is an issue.
21:25:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Sure they do.  Not because of the concept behind it but because of how it's asked
21:25:25  <xiong> No; I'm saying that what you propose does not address my issue.
21:25:34  <Rhamphoryncus> You came and started talking about a problem.  Usually that's to see if someone has a solution
21:26:05  <V453000> Rhamphoryncus: apparently it is to prove that nobody has a solution :P
21:26:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Yes, because what you asked did not match your problem.  In your head it did but not in ours.
21:26:45  <xiong> I'm not quite like most modern people, guy. I'm usually more interested in puzzles than in answers. Life is not like a grade-school arithmetic test: Here is a problem, here is the one right answer.
21:27:41  <xiong> There is no one right answer to anything in this game, not to any sort of strategy issue. There are only strategies, which may be more or less appealing.
21:27:43  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: that's fine, but you're still only looking for certain kinds of answers
21:28:10  <xiong> Um... yes. I operate under certain assumptions.
21:28:40  <Rhamphoryncus> The better answer for most of the farmsup/engsup problems is to modify FIRS to encourage better styles, removing that "exactly 1/month" concept people like to fixate on
21:28:53  <xiong> Why don't I turn off breakdowns? Why don't I change train sets, or tram sets? Why don't I change industry sets? Why don't I start at an easier time, or with more money?
21:28:56  <Rhamphoryncus> But that's about game design, not gameplay
21:29:53  <xiong> It took me quite a number of years before I was willing to use the Scenario Editor to place towns; I just played out too many unsatisfactory games with towns piled up in one corner of the map.
21:30:01  <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: sadly I've done that too x_x
21:30:11  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: yeah, you're pretty stubborn and inflexible..
21:30:26  <xiong> That's a virtue.
21:30:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Not in this case it isn't
21:30:37  <xiong> It's called having principles.
21:30:58  <xiong> If I don't enter into the game with some set of principles then what am I playing for?
21:31:00  <Rhamphoryncus> Here it's just being obsessive
21:31:05  <Rhamphoryncus> To have fun?
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21:31:22  <xiong> The game is not competitive; there is no chance of losing, therefore one cannot win.
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21:31:27  <drac_boy> hi
21:31:54  <Rhamphoryncus> Sure, within each game don't just impulsively cheat, but for the next game try different options and see how they work
21:32:06  <xiong> So one must have at least one goal; and if there's to be any challenge, several. Having started a game with those goals, to abandon them is weak.
21:32:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Psst, here's a secret in game design: the vast majority of games you can lose are actually illusions.  They're designed so that you always win in the end
21:32:53  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus unless you're reckless with high costs and low profits of course ;)
21:33:00  <xiong> Yes, well, that leads me to ramp up the difficulty by adding more goals.
21:33:14  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: hey, it's *designed* so you always win.  It takes talent to lose *g*
21:33:20  <drac_boy> heh :P
21:33:43  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: strange game.  The only way to win is not to play at all.
21:34:24  <xiong> There is a Flash game floating around, Matriarch. It is apparently impossible to lose. Therefore, another fellow and I have been competing on winning in the fewest number of turns. That is a contest that's very possible to lose.
21:34:31  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: I've ones I've cocked up I could recover with enough time and effort.  Start by selling off nearly everything and focus on the parts that are profitable
21:34:53  <Nat_aS> link?
21:35:23  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: take solitaire.  Possible to lose, right?
21:36:06  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus actually in Windows Freecell there was at least one game that was impossible to finish because all four Aces were far in the back of the stacks
21:36:20  <drac_boy> don't know how that happened but its been mentioned quite a few many times online
21:36:35  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: heh, not what I was getting at
21:36:52  <drac_boy> yeah I know :p
21:37:59  <oskari89> Eddi|zuhause: how are trafficobjects, are they being examined in foreseeable future (in a year or so) ? :)
21:38:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Take a game where you can individually lose, then expand your view outward so that a potentially endless string is one "game".  Individual sessions may be failed, but not the whole game.  Yet it's still challenging, still enjoyable
21:38:24  <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: the whole concept depends on airports first
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21:53:21  <oskari89> Ok :)
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22:00:05  <supermop> work beer time
22:01:07  * drac_boy throws water bottles at supermop instead
22:01:48  <supermop> dont drink bottled water - its wastefull
22:02:03  <drac_boy> then why are you drinking that ever more wasteful beer? :p
22:02:24  <supermop> beer doesnt have the option of coming out of a tap at work
22:02:40  <supermop> that might be a problem of my workplace though
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