Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:07:03 *** pete1 [~pete@f055019129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 00:07:43 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:08:21 <pete1> is the sequence in the readme.txt the sequence, in which openttd will search for the data files? In which order are they processed? 00:13:53 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has joined #openttd 00:15:47 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-3.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 00:17:35 *** NOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-3.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 00:20:20 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-112-67.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:23:49 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-3.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 00:40:02 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:51:47 *** Firartix [~artixds@2a01:e35:2ee1:7050:762f:68ff:fea5:ba0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:03:45 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has joined #openttd 01:07:47 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-5d822472.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 01:13:26 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d083c70.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:20:55 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-098-092.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:30:24 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-5d822472.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 02:05:49 *** KnogleAFK [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 02:05:49 *** Knogle [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:52 *** pete2 [~pete@f055146035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 02:14:57 *** pete1 [~pete@f055019129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:17:19 *** pete2 [~pete@f055146035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #openttd [] 02:17:39 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 02:19:22 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:e8c4:9d09:3c1:712c] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:22:24 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:36:18 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:24 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:57:07 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 03:00:58 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@200.146.4.246.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 03:22:45 *** Hazzard [~7b780a2d@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:35:49 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:37:07 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 03:48:27 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:50:08 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 04:22:05 *** sprog [7a3d9dcd@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 04:22:56 *** sprog [7a3d9dcd@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 04:31:03 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:32:37 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 04:35:15 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 04:36:57 *** Kylie [~Kylie@CPE18593346e177-CM18593346e174.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:37:27 *** Kylie [~Kylie@CPE18593346e177-CM18593346e174.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 04:47:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC677FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:47:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5465.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:53:59 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:56:03 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:57:37 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 05:03:22 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:04:34 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:13:51 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 05:20:06 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:42:22 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 05:55:28 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:02:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 06:13:37 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has joined #openttd 06:13:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:17:48 <andythenorth> meh 06:18:42 <andythenorth> can't see how to make cargo routing work for PAX *without* routing individual packets :| 06:19:49 <andythenorth> it's too intuitive that PAX want to go to specific places 06:44:51 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-26-179.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 06:46:02 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@200.146.4.246.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:46:07 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 06:48:26 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:58:43 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 07:27:41 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 07:27:44 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:27:51 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 07:28:03 <Alberth> moin andy 07:28:10 <Alberth> you're early :) 07:29:01 * andythenorth had a lie in 07:29:03 <andythenorth> until 7am 07:36:41 <andythenorth> Alberth: I was thinking more about supply / demand 07:36:49 <andythenorth> unconvinced by my spot price idea 07:37:03 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-117-47.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 07:37:14 <andythenorth> might be helpful to figure out some goals 07:38:42 <Alberth> sorry, but the whole mess with mb got to me, and I am reconsidering what to make of it, and/or what the fuck I am doing here. 07:38:54 <andythenorth> oh did that continue? :P 07:39:06 <Alberth> so I am not exactly in the mood to do deep thinking today, I am afraid 07:39:22 <andythenorth> it is an unfortunate side effect of his total lack of proportion :P 07:41:47 *** NOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-40-3.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:46:16 *** guru3 [~guru3@stgt-5f703baa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: rebootin'] 07:47:21 <Terkhen> good morning 07:47:52 <Alberth> good morning Terkhen 07:50:55 *** guru3 [~guru3@stgt-5f703baa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:05:14 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-135.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:05:34 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd 08:05:40 <Wolf01> morning! 08:06:02 <Terkhen> good morning Wolf01 08:08:13 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1998E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:11:12 * andythenorth puzzles at cargo routing 08:11:22 <Terkhen> why? it is quite easy 08:11:24 <andythenorth> can't see a way to do it nicely without assigning a destination to each packet 08:11:43 <Alberth> assigning destination is not the problem :) 08:11:54 <andythenorth> I've been trying to invent methods that are quite blind to where cargo 'wants' to go 08:12:01 <Terkhen> ah, you are looking at a new way, I thought that you were puzzled by the current way :P 08:12:06 <andythenorth> new way(s) 08:12:21 <andythenorth> I was hoping to effectively make it work like water 08:12:32 <andythenorth> water doesn't know where it's going, it just goes...down 08:13:11 <Alberth> cargo has an owner, and he is very much aware of where the cargo should go :) 08:13:29 <andythenorth> I can think of ways to do 'down', but I also want to improve transfers, and make auto-refit smart 08:13:36 <andythenorth> and that means understanding the cargo's destination 08:15:36 <Alberth> depends whether you want a slightly different openttd where the user still has much control over where cargo goes, or no control (or very little) 08:15:51 <Alberth> in the latter case, you need destinations and routing, I think 08:16:08 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 08:18:46 <andythenorth> I was hoping with spot price that game would handle majority of routing, but load/transfer orders could be used by player to move cargo against price gradient (for whatever reason) 08:19:05 <andythenorth> I need to figure out the goals a little more probably 08:19:18 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 08:20:07 <andythenorth> although imho, 'goals' are not the best way to design something like this 08:21:35 <Alberth> you just need to keep track of a percentage of cargo moved in each down-hill direction, don't you? 08:21:47 <andythenorth> maybe 08:21:58 <andythenorth> I have to figure out 'move to station' 08:22:11 <andythenorth> and also rules for loading cargo to a vehicle, or not 08:25:25 <andythenorth> what I really want to do is find a system which makes interesting emergent behaviour possible 08:25:46 <andythenorth> then let GS mess with various parameters that produce different behaviours 08:25:56 <Alberth> :) 08:26:10 <Alberth> so the trouble spot is 'find' :) 08:26:28 <andythenorth> I think cargo needs to 'want' to go somewhere 08:26:37 <andythenorth> almost certainly on a per-packet basis 08:26:39 <Terkhen> andythenorth: subsidies? :) 08:26:54 <andythenorth> maybe 08:27:09 <andythenorth> I think subsidies are a modifier of 'where cargo wants to go' 08:27:22 <Alberth> Terkhen: I mentioned those yesterday too, but perhaps more fine grained, eg station to station 08:27:59 <Alberth> then you can really influence cargo payments 08:28:05 <Alberth> hmm, but not amounts :( 08:28:33 <Terkhen> yes, subsidies are not a great solution :P 08:29:15 <Alberth> subsidies are perhaps just one form of cargo payment 08:31:32 <Alberth> if you control payments, you can trick the user into handling amounts, but that's micro-management, and splitting cargo streams will never happen, I think 08:31:40 <Terkhen> they would be great for making destinations that are far away or have small amounts of cargo more interesting 08:31:58 <Terkhen> but you need destinations for this to work :) 08:33:29 <Alberth> you need to have some incremental way to build the graph 08:38:23 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:42:10 <andythenorth> subsidies would modify demand 08:42:17 <andythenorth> demand would affect routing and price 08:42:25 <andythenorth> how, I can't figure out, I'm not good at maths 08:44:19 <andythenorth> I would also really like to enable payment for delivering only part-way to the destination 08:45:12 <andythenorth> so cargo that wants to go A-D is delivered A-B and player gets paid, assuming that B is on the A-D demand gradient 08:45:16 <Terkhen> sounds quite complicated 08:45:25 <andythenorth> *and* cargo is put back on the map at B 08:45:26 <andythenorth> for all players 08:45:35 <andythenorth> this would then get very interesting, especially in MP 08:46:05 <Terkhen> I agree, it would be awesome :P 08:46:14 <andythenorth> paying for partial routes is not complicated 08:46:21 <andythenorth> loading cargo onto vehicles for partial routes is mind-boggling 08:46:21 <Terkhen> but you also need a mechanism for shared stations then 08:46:34 <andythenorth> or storing cargo on map tiles 08:48:08 <andythenorth> I have a horrible feeling that this could be solved with a lot of data 08:48:24 <andythenorth> each source-destination pair forms a vector 08:50:08 <andythenorth> and every tile on the map has a relation to that vector 08:53:19 <andythenorth> storing a demand on every tile for every source-destination pair is insane :P 08:54:57 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d822472.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:57:23 <andythenorth> ho, I think I just reinvented cargodist :P 08:57:33 <andythenorth> not useful, done already :P 08:59:01 <andythenorth> what I need is a metric for cargo at A to know that B is 'closer' to D than A 08:59:17 <andythenorth> and cartesian co-ordinates are a bad metric for that 08:59:37 <andythenorth> link efficiency is one possible measure, but afaict, that's what cargodist does 09:06:04 <andythenorth> michi_cc: in YACD, does the pathfinder have to run for every single cargo packet waiting at a station? 09:08:06 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/merhZ.png 09:08:17 <NGC3982> am i understanding PBS correctly when using it like this? 09:10:26 <Alberth> seems ok, what part is troubling you? 09:11:17 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-022-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 09:12:34 <NGC3982> nothing, it works properly. im just not sure if it's the most effective way. 09:12:38 <andythenorth> looks ok 09:12:47 <NGC3982> im thinking about not having that tight turn on the double-track 09:12:59 <NGC3982> since the train passing is longer then the two turns 09:18:05 <Alberth> I never reach that level of optimization :) 09:19:42 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:21:56 * andythenorth needs to be better at pure maths 09:22:08 * andythenorth is reading about topologies and manifolds 09:23:06 <andythenorth> reading, but not understanding :P 09:24:46 <andythenorth> 'cargo always moves downhill' is trivial until you have a vehicle with orders that initially go uphill 09:24:47 <Alberth> manifolds are math? I thought they were for controlling liquid flows 09:24:58 <andythenorth> do you want to load cargo on that vehicle or not? 09:25:06 <NGC3982> Alberth: well, the double-track is going to have lots and lots of trains on it. the single-track will only house one. 09:25:12 <andythenorth> sometimes you will, because you know that the route is ultimately valid 09:25:13 <LordAro> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1024787#p1024787 <-- Rubidium, scaring potential developers off since 2005 :D 09:25:34 <andythenorth> and sometimes you won't because it looks stupid for cargo to be taking a circuitous route 09:26:03 <Alberth> andythenorth: just don't care, and load it. The user will stop doing when he does not get paid 09:26:07 <andythenorth> good point 09:26:19 * NGC3982 introduces reynolds number. 09:26:30 <Alberth> argh! 09:26:42 <andythenorth> also, coal is waiting. Train 1 is in the station, and will take 40 days to deliver. Train 2 is about to arrive and will take 10 days via a shorter route. Load which train? 09:26:53 <Alberth> NGC3982: I'd build a bridge then :) 09:27:11 <andythenorth> I *do not* want to be measuring link capacities, speed per ton mile etc :P 09:27:24 <andythenorth> so load train 1 09:27:36 <andythenorth> dealing with this behaviour is then the 'game' 09:28:08 <andythenorth> simple rule: cargo will always move 'downhill' 09:28:10 <Alberth> LordAro: good developers see the point and adjust goals :) 09:28:18 <andythenorth> so any vehicle with 'down' in its orders will be loaded 09:28:39 <LordAro> Alberth: indeed so, and kudos to him for doing so :) 09:29:19 <Alberth> andythenorth: indeed, let the player handle the problem of train 1 09:29:37 <Alberth> if he wants to use more resources for travel, let him 09:30:02 <Alberth> maybe he considers it more realistic that way :p 09:30:21 <Terkhen> LordAro: that's a way of saying "there is no point in upgrading performance in a platform currently broken for OpenTTD" 09:30:22 <NGC3982> Alberth: bridges are no fun :(. 09:30:50 <andythenorth> ok 09:31:41 <andythenorth> so a topology for each source-destination pair for each cargo: gradient value for each tile on the map 09:32:11 <andythenorth> gradient is 'flat' or 'down'. Not sure if 'up' is useful or not 09:32:20 <andythenorth> gradient calculated by pathfinder every so many ticks 09:32:43 <Alberth> charge the user for taking it in the wrong direction :p 09:32:59 <andythenorth> gradient based initially on some radius 09:33:07 <andythenorth> building routes modifies the gradient 09:33:43 <andythenorth> I'm trying to keep it scale free: so measuring cargo waiting, link capacity etc are all undesirable imo 09:34:42 <Alberth> that's just for balancing cargo evenly over the network 09:35:00 <Alberth> at least 2 steps further from here :) 09:35:02 <andythenorth> I did like the idea that piling up cargo en-route modifies the gradient 09:35:20 <Alberth> :) 09:35:20 <andythenorth> but then a decision has to be made: is 500t too much waiting? 5,000t? 09:35:37 <andythenorth> there's no way to decide that without enforcing a certain play style 09:36:17 <andythenorth> if underlying routing is scale-free, GS could modify the gradient according to rules of GS 09:36:31 <andythenorth> => supports varied play styles / challenges 09:36:42 <Alberth> keep track of average cargo movement speed, multiply by distance 09:38:04 <Alberth> or perhaps even simpler: gradient * amount 09:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how does a "gradient" work for "symmetric" cargos? (passengers, mail, valuables) 09:40:49 <andythenorth> it's based on a source-destination pair 09:40:52 <andythenorth> so should work ok 09:41:08 <andythenorth> without giving cargo packets destinations, it works horribly 09:41:13 <andythenorth> not at all in fact :( 09:41:47 <andythenorth> @calc 2048*2048 09:41:47 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4194304 09:41:51 <andythenorth> hmm 09:42:38 <andythenorth> I'm guessing that for PAX, there could be hundreds of thousands of source-destination pairs 09:43:08 <andythenorth> and each needs to store a full gradient topology - i.e. a gradient value for every tile on the map 09:43:14 <andythenorth> so not looking very viable :P 09:44:45 <andythenorth> also, even if the gradient pathfinder only runs 8-9 times a month, it's probably too much to calculate gradient for hundreds of thousands of source-destination pairs :| 09:46:51 <andythenorth> perhaps this does need to a topology based on stations, not tiles 09:47:01 <Eddi|zuHause> today Alberth "owns" almost the whole forum :) 09:47:25 <andythenorth> :) 09:47:53 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: fix it, post some new discussions :) 09:48:17 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-022-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 09:50:38 <Terkhen> or post in existing ones :P 09:51:23 <Alberth> or release a new cargo-d*st :D 09:52:20 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-139.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:53:38 <andythenorth> someone remind me 09:53:46 <andythenorth> in what way do newgrfs not *have* to be GPL? 09:54:30 <andythenorth> do they run in a shared address space? 09:54:53 <andythenorth> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation 09:55:44 <Terkhen> in the same way that you can create an odt file that contains non GPL stuff and load it with libreoffice 09:55:57 <andythenorth> does odt exec code? 09:56:20 <andythenorth> not that it matters, just thinking out loud :P 09:56:26 <Terkhen> does not matter 09:56:40 <andythenorth> even if newgrfs *had* to be GPL to be distributed, the MB case would still apply 09:56:57 <andythenorth> it's a copyright infringement :| 09:57:15 <andythenorth> his primary problem is 'the internet' 09:57:20 <Terkhen> if every GPL program that is able to "read" code would be limited to read only GPL code they would not be used at all 09:57:28 <andythenorth> newgrf is executable no? 09:57:35 <andythenorth> the bytecode runs 09:57:41 <Terkhen> for example, you can use the gcc compiler to compile non GPL code 09:58:10 <andythenorth> ach, even if I'm right, it solves nothing :P 09:58:31 <andythenorth> he wants to distribute but not be re-distributed 09:58:38 <andythenorth> which is like trying to push water uphill frankly 09:58:40 <andythenorth> he needs DRM 09:59:01 <Terkhen> the problem is not the copyright infringement itself, those issues are taken seriously and they are always solved as fast as possible 09:59:23 <andythenorth> the problem is that MB feels he has no control so goes nuclear 09:59:32 <andythenorth> fear leads to lack of proportion 10:00:03 <andythenorth> lack of proportion leads to headache for everyone else 10:01:30 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-203.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 10:01:48 <Terkhen> I guess that you can call "actively trying to destroy OpenTTD infrastructure" a headache, yes 10:02:19 <andythenorth> are his actions sufficient to warrant a forum ban warning? 10:02:36 <andythenorth> they're legal, but disproportionate 10:02:57 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-26-179.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:03:07 <andythenorth> my guess is that if he'd had OpenTTD taken offline, we could have sued him 10:03:33 <andythenorth> for at least the monetary value of the lost hosting 10:03:52 <andythenorth> we would have been able to demonstrate compliance with DMCA/EDEC 10:03:55 <Xaroth> andythenorth: MB feels the world revolves around his own head 10:03:58 <Xaroth> that's his first flaw 10:04:03 <andythenorth> we all have that 10:04:04 <Xaroth> first of MANY flaws 10:04:44 * Xaroth hugs Alberth 10:04:48 <andythenorth> is our hosting donated by a sponsor, or paid for by player donations? 10:05:12 <Alberth> thanks Xaroth :) 10:05:29 <Xaroth> Thought you needed that :) 10:05:47 <Alberth> I did :) 10:05:52 <Terkhen> :) 10:06:47 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-117-47.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:06:47 * andythenorth wonders how a class action would have gone - players suing MB for loss of services paid for by donations 10:07:09 <Xaroth> it wouldn't have gone 10:07:48 <Xaroth> suits like that are a complete circlejerk 10:07:58 <andythenorth> definitely adds to the fun, involving lawyers in FOSS community stuff :P 10:08:25 <Xaroth> only adds more headache for those who already have a headache from this 10:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it would have been thrown out due to lack of success-expectation 10:09:08 <andythenorth> we could have had fun for months discussing it though :P 10:09:16 <andythenorth> way better than working on the game 10:09:26 <Xaroth> depends on your definition of 'fun' 10:10:03 <Xaroth> I can imagine a lot of devs already being mightily pissed off, I wouldn't want to see them being faced by this same shitstorm day after day for several weeks, if not months 10:11:21 <planetmaker> Xaroth: your assumption can't be more to the point 10:11:38 <Xaroth> planetmaker: who said anything about it being an assumption? 10:11:48 <Xaroth> the evidence is there 10:12:39 <planetmaker> :-) 10:16:29 <andythenorth> if we'd been taken offline, how many kittens would have died? 10:16:36 <andythenorth> [just trying to establish proportions] 10:16:53 <andythenorth> I'm going to reply in that thread later 10:17:09 <Xaroth> many 10:17:23 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: hmm ... it would be such a cool lawsuit tbh 10:17:36 <andythenorth> it would be a remarkably stupid lawsuit 10:17:36 <TrueBrain> as mb clearly defamed us, and we have enough evidence to proof that 10:17:55 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: only problem is proving the amount of damage caused 10:17:56 <andythenorth> 'bunch of semi-aspergers train fans sue and counter-sue each other over free game' 10:18:18 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: that is the fun part: the damage doesn't has to be in terms of money lost due sale 10:18:27 <andythenorth> sponsorship has a valuer 10:18:29 <andythenorth> value * 10:18:31 <TrueBrain> we just say: a few developers burned down because of it 10:18:37 <TrueBrain> couldn't do their own real-life work 10:18:47 <TrueBrain> so that is the first demand 10:18:59 <TrueBrain> then you start about the loss in name (OpenTTD) 10:19:02 <TrueBrain> the damage that has caused 10:19:05 <TrueBrain> which is a 'feeling' value 10:19:06 <andythenorth> there's probably some case could be made that it's vandalism of an artistic work 10:19:09 <TrueBrain> worth a few 1000$ 10:19:21 <andythenorth> do we have ad revenue on the openttd site? 10:19:24 <TrueBrain> and let there be no mistake: he would have lost 10:19:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no 10:19:52 <andythenorth> ad revenue can be a poisoned chalice anyway; then we're "making money from copyright infringement" 10:20:04 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no, we are not 10:20:14 <andythenorth> so I see ;) 10:20:29 <TrueBrain> I posted the same to Hyro a moment ago: we are in no violation up to the point we are informed of said violation (DMCA / EDEC) 10:20:36 <andythenorth> and then it's process 10:20:38 <TrueBrain> then we are giving a "reasonable amount of time" to solve the issue 10:20:47 <andythenorth> as long as we follow process, we're correct 10:20:54 <TrueBrain> so a single upload can never been defined as "making money from copyright infringement" 10:21:10 <TrueBrain> of course, this under the assumption it doesn't happen every single minute of every single hour of every single day 10:21:13 <planetmaker> We might order a cease and desist with court to have him on penalty of a fine never repeat such claim unfounded 10:21:13 <TrueBrain> (like the piratebay) 10:21:24 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: hihi; yes :D 10:21:30 <planetmaker> we'd come through with that. Or *he* would have to show that his claim of repeated infringement is just 10:21:38 <planetmaker> Actually... I really like that thought... 10:21:39 <Xaroth> a cease and desist is easy :P 10:21:46 <andythenorth> if he has no evidence base, then he is at risk of defamation 10:21:57 <andythenorth> did he publish his assertion publicly anywhere? 10:22:08 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no 10:22:15 <planetmaker> he made it to support his claim towards 3rd party 10:22:19 <TrueBrain> but I can publish it, as a takedown notice is part of a legal process, thereby public domain 10:22:19 <planetmaker> "claim" 10:22:57 <andythenorth> but it's written, and defensibly untrue claim? 10:23:05 <andythenorth> did he claim it was a true claim? 10:23:06 <TrueBrain> yes 10:23:22 <TrueBrain> he made 2 statements which made our 3rd parties go: euh?! WUTH?! 10:23:30 <TrueBrain> one in very clear wording, the other is a clear implication of wording 10:23:37 <andythenorth> so he claimed 'fact' not 'opinion'? 10:23:53 <TrueBrain> yes 10:24:00 <andythenorth> libel -> actionable defamation 10:24:10 <andythenorth> but you know that already :) 10:24:13 <planetmaker> luckily that makes the difference whether a cease and desist order would work :-) This way it does 10:25:03 <andythenorth> I would just get him forum warned as 'unhelpful' 10:25:15 <andythenorth> and move on 10:25:33 <Xaroth> only warned? Pff, softie 10:25:54 <andythenorth> I suspect with a warning, he might extract himself from the forums 10:26:00 <Xaroth> I see two threads, that's at least 2 warnings.. how many did it take to get banned again? :P 10:26:09 <andythenorth> he's not actually going to go away anyway 10:26:27 <andythenorth> he'll sit making grfs and occasionally sending takedown notices 10:26:29 <andythenorth> hmm 10:26:42 <Xaroth> which doesn't actually solve the problem 10:26:45 <TrueBrain> all I wish, is that he would show some sign of realise that what he did was so far out of line, the line is not visible anymore 10:27:19 <Xaroth> He won't do that, as that would mean he'd have to admit the world doesn't revolve around him anymore 10:27:22 <andythenorth> I'm going to post that the measures to remedy are significantly out of proportion to the harm done 10:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll put this thread in the "don't feed the troll" bin... 10:32:28 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-152-250-188.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 10:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there's only one possible way this thread can end. a flamewar... 10:33:05 <Chris_Booth> and I bring my Fire-Arms? 10:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> every "sane" thing that could ever be said was already said 10:34:06 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: except the words: I am sorry 10:34:20 <TrueBrain> but agree'd, that might not be "sane" ;) 10:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: there is always four truths... 10:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> your truth, their truth, "the truth" and what actually happened 10:35:27 <andythenorth> you clearly haven't met my wife 10:35:32 <andythenorth> there is only one truth 10:35:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's a clear case of "their truth" :) 10:36:17 <andythenorth> can you send her that memo, thanks :) 10:37:04 <Chris_Booth> dear andythenorth's wife there are always four truths; your truth, their truth, "the truth" and what actually happened 10:38:46 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:57 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has joined #openttd 10:40:39 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: despite the amount of truths, I could at least hope he realised he was overreacting, and that it would deserve at least a "sorry" 10:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you'll ever hear those words from his mouth 10:41:53 <TrueBrain> like said, I guess that it doesnt falls under that "sane" quotation 10:42:11 <TrueBrain> in that case your statement would be right :P 10:45:06 <andythenorth> do / can cargo packets store a final destination, and/or a 'next unload' 10:45:06 <andythenorth> ? 10:46:33 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1998E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:53 <Alberth> sure, you may have to split up cargo packets, as the same cargo with different destinations cannot be combined any more 10:47:39 <Alberth> it's a matter of adding a field 10:48:03 <andythenorth> I'm not sure it's needed yet 10:48:11 <andythenorth> I'm bouncing around different levels of detail :P 10:48:37 <andythenorth> also....can we fork tt-forums? :) 10:48:50 <andythenorth> it's become an ottd monoculture anyway :P 10:50:00 <andythenorth> we could establish it as 'an unsafe place' 10:50:04 <andythenorth> rules: 10:50:17 <andythenorth> - you will be flamed for discussing multi-threading without knowledge 10:50:24 <andythenorth> - you must use GPL for your newgrfs 10:50:38 <andythenorth> - asking for underground metro is a warning, then ban 10:50:47 <andythenorth> - OS X developers will be punished 10:51:47 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-022-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:51:54 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: your second point, we have been talking about only allowing open source licenses on BaNaNaS a few times now 10:52:07 <andythenorth> pikka is your blocker to that :P 10:52:18 <TrueBrain> well, its not a single person tbh 10:52:30 <andythenorth> can you issue DMCA takedown for content not yours? 10:52:33 <TrueBrain> but I personally really favour sending the vibe: we are OSS, so should you 10:52:40 <andythenorth> +1 10:52:41 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: DMCA: no. EDEC: yes 10:52:46 <andythenorth> meh 10:52:52 <TrueBrain> so in US: no, in EU: yes 10:53:15 <andythenorth> I only joke about forking forums 10:53:29 <andythenorth> but slowly creative, helpful people are being driven away by ottd group-think 10:54:12 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:54:33 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what do you mean? 10:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> andythenorth: your second point, we have been talking about only allowing open source licenses on BaNaNaS a few times now <-- how does that help? 10:55:18 <andythenorth> we drove out SAC, RichK67, now we drive out MB? 10:55:20 <TinoDidriksen> What is EDEC? Google finds nothing related to EU... 10:55:45 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it is in no relation to mb, if that is what you mean 10:56:00 <andythenorth> also OzTrans 10:56:03 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it is just about the general vibe, I personally dislike close source stuff being uploaded for an open source game 10:56:06 <TrueBrain> but that is my personally opinion 10:56:34 <TrueBrain> TinoDidriksen: EDEC is the European Directive on Electronic Commerce 10:56:41 <TrueBrain> it contains DMCA basically 10:56:43 <TrueBrain> in other words 10:56:44 <TrueBrain> more freely 10:57:06 <TrueBrain> Article 12 to 14 are what we talk about 10:57:26 <andythenorth> hmm 10:57:33 <andythenorth> can't see a scale-free way to set demand on a tile 10:57:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: and what were the causes of each one of them being driven away? 10:57:49 <andythenorth> they don't like the prevailing attitude 10:57:54 <Terkhen> what attitude? 10:58:09 <andythenorth> primarily the attitude of ottd devs and contributors 10:58:14 <andythenorth> I didn't say any of this was bad :P 10:58:22 <Terkhen> please ellaborate :P 10:58:23 <andythenorth> but we're forking the forum from the inside :P 10:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what did SAC have to do with openttd? 10:58:45 <TrueBrain> the people I have seen go away, were issues on their side: their god complex got so big, they no longer received the praise they wanted 10:59:09 <TrueBrain> which is fundemental to human beings 10:59:15 <TrueBrain> and why OSS is so hard to maintain 10:59:43 <TrueBrain> we had patches of people where they demanded their name to be in the source code 10:59:48 <andythenorth> 'how many marxist-leninist factions does it take to change a lightbulb?' 10:59:50 <TrueBrain> never underestimate the human ego :D 10:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like to add to the list of people "driven away": eis_os and OzTrans 10:59:57 <andythenorth> 'answer: 1; the others split into other factions and left' :P 11:00:07 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: eis_os was ever part of OpenTTD? wasn't he TTDp? 11:00:07 <andythenorth> or such 11:00:11 <andythenorth> joke needs work :P 11:00:13 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: lolz :D 11:00:22 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd 11:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, but... 11:00:46 <TrueBrain> [13:07] <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what did SAC have to do with openttd? <- that was why I asked 11:01:18 <andythenorth> the attitude is now: 11:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: if we assume the "wider TT community", to include the SAC problem, then... 11:01:27 <andythenorth> - release something or get off the pot 11:01:32 <andythenorth> - no individual heroes 11:01:43 <andythenorth> - don't violate the GPL 11:01:50 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: fair :P 11:01:56 <andythenorth> - your dramas are not welcome 11:02:15 <Xaroth> both sac and mb are butthurt because they want to publish copyrighted stuff, but don't want the responsibility behind it 11:02:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that sounds like a good env, not? 11:02:35 <andythenorth> I didn't say it was bad :P 11:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> MB always had something against BaNaNaS, and i never really understood what... 11:03:12 <andythenorth> it's not ttdp? 11:03:16 <andythenorth> no control? 11:03:17 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I would rephrase the first point as "if you don't plan to work on it, don't talk about how things should be done" 11:03:25 <andythenorth> it's not invented in the german forum in 2003? 11:03:46 <andythenorth> it's not grf-crawler? 11:03:51 <TrueBrain> "no control" I would say 11:03:51 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: probably because, in BaNaNaS, the world does not revolve around him 11:03:57 <Xaroth> he wants to have a site where you can only see his stuff 11:04:03 <TrueBrain> they want to keep very close control 11:04:04 <Xaroth> and force people to only use his site to get his stuff 11:04:10 <TrueBrain> and they are very afraid old versions are kept in rotation 11:04:14 <TrueBrain> on one hand I can understand that 11:04:23 <TrueBrain> it is bad if an old defunctional version is floating around 11:04:34 <TrueBrain> but ... that doesn't kept us from releasing 0.4.7 11:04:49 <TrueBrain> for years we had a 0.6.3 server ... how ever bad it was, it was his choice 11:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that was "interesting" development back then :p 11:05:07 <TrueBrain> on one hand I would like I could remove his server, but on the other ... this is a free world 11:05:13 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 11:05:36 <TrueBrain> but from what I have read over these years, it comes down to: I want to be able to remove my file any time I want 11:05:40 <TrueBrain> I am that important 11:05:47 <TrueBrain> even if it breaks all savegames, I want to do that 11:05:56 <TrueBrain> which, again, I can kindof understand 11:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> on the german forum we today have a guy who plays a long-running game on 0.6.3, and won't update "because the industries change production too fast" 11:06:24 <TrueBrain> giving away control to a 3rd party is scary .. means you have to trust people etc :P 11:06:52 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:07:03 <Alberth> and yet they are fine with normal users having the old version 11:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and another guy a while back refuses to update his game from 0.7.x because it screws up all his timetables because the trains are underpowered wrt the tweaked "realistic" acceleration 11:07:49 * andythenorth wonders if 'demand' can be scaled to the size of the map 11:07:51 <TrueBrain> funny enough, in contrast, we still publish 0.1.0 on our binary servers :P 11:08:22 <TrueBrain> and I Can honestly say I am proud on the iterations we made 11:08:32 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: they don't know about our never ending list of advanced settings, I guess 11:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: well, those are exactly items which cannot be set by settings 11:09:02 <TrueBrain> then again, our MasterServer protocol for example still supports the first client which had it ... which is old :P 11:09:08 <andythenorth> 'demand' unit is arbitrary, just needs to create a gradient between current tile, and accepting tile 11:09:12 * andythenorth hmms 11:09:24 <Terkhen> oh, sorry, I did not read the "tweaked" part :) 11:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: there is no switch between the "old unbalanced realistic acceleration" and the "new balanced realistic acceleration" 11:09:42 <andythenorth> python import helper 11:09:48 <andythenorth> from helper import mathematician 11:09:59 <Terkhen> well, in that case still having the old versions around is what lets them play the game as they want 11:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and likewise there is no switch between the old industry behaviour (monthly change not scaled to map size) and the new one (constantly change scaled with map size) 11:10:34 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: ImportError: class not found 11:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i don't think that is a real error :=) 11:11:12 <TrueBrain> I dont think it is a real import 11:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what you maybe want is a "network flow", and then CargoDist does model it this way 11:11:59 <andythenorth> yeah, wondering that 11:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it does that per station, not per tile 11:12:39 <andythenorth> wondering if I'm just reinventing cargodist 11:13:55 <andythenorth> oh dear 11:14:03 <andythenorth> "it's a pirate bay situation then" 11:14:23 <Xaroth> lolz 11:14:24 <Xaroth> haha 11:14:26 <Xaroth> ok, he's funny 11:17:05 <andythenorth> do we know why we *don't* try and maintain control? 11:17:13 <andythenorth> -> makes us liable if we do 11:17:34 <andythenorth> if we start attempting to verify copyright, we're liable for any failures 11:17:46 <andythenorth> whereas if we do nothing for that, it's covered as 'abuse' under ToS 11:18:21 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-139.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:19:36 <Xaroth> ooh ooh, mb posted 11:20:25 * andythenorth wants to now place money on the prediction by Eddi|zuHause wrt flame war 11:20:29 <andythenorth> who will take my bet? 11:21:57 <andythenorth> hmm 11:22:01 * andythenorth needs a rubber sheet 11:22:41 <andythenorth> I need to forget cartesian map co-ordinates when trying to route cargo 11:23:09 <andythenorth> for a given pair of source-destination.....let 0 be the state of the map before calculations 11:23:19 <andythenorth> let -100 be the value at the destination tile 11:23:27 <andythenorth> let +100 be the value at the source tile 11:23:33 <andythenorth> now how to deform the topology? 11:23:57 <andythenorth> linear? 11:24:00 <andythenorth> bezier curve? 11:24:53 * andythenorth should draw this in PIL 11:29:21 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:31:59 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f685d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:33:42 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has joined #openttd 11:33:59 <Alberth> or in inkscape with svg :) 11:34:10 <Xaroth> andythenorth: it's not fair to bet on something you're helping the outcome with :P 11:36:02 <frosch123> @seen peter1138 11:36:03 <DorpsGek> frosch123: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 1 hour, 27 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <peter1138> also it's a cog with opengfx 11:36:09 <frosch123> @seen zuu 11:36:09 <DorpsGek> frosch123: zuu was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: You need to find a post to comment in the AI/GS section and then you will own the entire forum :-) 11:38:13 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: libel not slander 11:38:20 <andythenorth> slander is spoken, libel is written ;) 11:38:40 <TrueBrain> where did I write that? 11:38:57 <andythenorth> oops Xaroth ^^ 11:38:57 <andythenorth> s 11:39:02 <andythenorth> sorry tb 11:40:02 <TrueBrain> and ... popcorn time 11:40:05 <TrueBrain> I replied 11:40:11 <TrueBrain> without letting others censor my writing 11:40:14 <TrueBrain> can't be a good thing :P 11:41:23 <andythenorth> nah it's fine 11:42:15 <andythenorth> but also...wtf cargo distribution :) 11:42:43 <andythenorth> I need a v-shaped profile, extruded along the vector between source and destination 11:43:11 <yno> is it possible to know the cargo amount/month of a station? 11:44:30 <andythenorth> TrueBrain et al - fwiw, when I got into a GPL argument with SAC, I found it quite distressing :P 11:44:37 <andythenorth> and I am quite thick skinned. 11:44:45 <andythenorth> so you have my sympathies here 11:45:14 <TrueBrain> it just sickens me that mb keeps playing the victim: I did nothing wrong. Wtf. You told our 3rd parties they should terminate us on unfound claims ... 11:45:17 <TrueBrain> how is that being a victim? 11:45:48 <andythenorth> I could think of answers, but the only one that sticks is: 11:45:52 <andythenorth> [shrug] 11:46:00 <andythenorth> it's just a big lot of 'meh' 11:46:06 <andythenorth> unless you're stuck dealing with the madness 11:46:15 <TrueBrain> it just amases me how he thinks he changed the world 11:46:16 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:46:26 <TrueBrain> like he thinks we only handled his caes because the mirrors contacted us 11:46:37 <TrueBrain> the HU mirror emailed me: I cannot find the file he mentioned 11:46:43 <TrueBrain> mostly, as I already removed it by then :P 11:46:57 <TrueBrain> but if you put everything in a very small timeframe, things appear to overlap I guess 11:47:35 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has joined #openttd 11:47:55 <Xaroth> absolutely win reply, tb 11:47:56 <Alberth> yno: roughly the production of the supplying industries times the percentage 11:49:45 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@200.146.4.246.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 11:53:10 <andythenorth> "Are my methods unsound?" 11:53:15 <andythenorth> "I don't see any method at all, sir." 11:53:23 <TrueBrain> nice reply andythenorth 11:53:29 <Xaroth> aye 11:53:31 <Xaroth> <3 andy 11:53:47 <andythenorth> ^^ Apocalypse now / heart of darkness 11:55:55 <andythenorth> really, he lacks moral sense 11:56:01 <Xaroth> s/moral// 11:56:08 <Xaroth> s/sense/brains/ 11:56:19 <andythenorth> wasting time for mirrors 11:56:39 <andythenorth> urgent, dramatic takedowns are for when you're accidentally distributing malware that lifts credit cards 11:56:50 <andythenorth> or other such horrible things 11:57:06 <TrueBrain> I made an edit on my post, I forgot a piece :D 11:57:20 <andythenorth> not when you are distributing 729KB of grf with pixel boats in it 11:57:25 * andythenorth deletes newships 11:58:21 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: among ISPs, when there is a website changed to steal bank details, we are asked to take care of it within 24h, but no longer than 48h 11:58:27 <TrueBrain> for all the right reasons 11:58:48 <TrueBrain> after 24h, they contact your AS provider already .. for all the right reasons :P 11:58:55 <TrueBrain> top priority those things have :P 11:59:01 <andythenorth> exactly 11:59:40 <Xaroth> at which point your AS will contact you again, and give you another 24h :P 11:59:47 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: on bank-fraud? 12:00:00 <TrueBrain> I almost once cut off a person in this room because he did not reply fast enough :P 12:00:05 <Xaroth> yep, the timeframe for those are insanely large 12:00:07 <TrueBrain> I had to text him ;) 12:00:13 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: euh, not in my experience :P 12:00:32 <Xaroth> then our experiences differ :) 12:00:35 <TrueBrain> within 48h those things are removed after first notification ;) 12:00:43 <TrueBrain> by what ever means ;) 12:00:53 <TrueBrain> our AS told us to either cut the IP, remove the site, or be cut off :P 12:00:59 <Alberth> nuke the data center :p 12:01:00 <TrueBrain> for all the right reasons, again :) 12:01:21 <TrueBrain> phishing shit is the worst of the worst 12:01:52 <Xaroth> don't get me wrong, I agree with the urgency, but we've had one case where we were given 72 hours in total.. 48 for what we could do, then our AS provider would get another 24h 12:02:21 <Xaroth> (the content itself was gone after 2 hours though) 12:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <Xaroth> s/sense/brains/ <-- insulting people has never solved anything... 12:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (this, obviously, is the point of no return for a flamewar) 12:03:44 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: neither has making wild accusations 12:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: neither has pointing fingers what the other side did wrong 12:06:29 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: also, do you see a flamewar here? 12:06:43 <Xaroth> I just made a statement, and nobody cared enough to openly disagree 12:06:47 <Xaroth> until you brought it up again :) 12:07:12 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:4871:aee9:1c3c:9f06] has joined #openttd 12:07:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: i saw a brooding flamewar two hours ago... 12:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> [10.06.2012 12:41] <Eddi|zuHause> there's only one possible way this thread can end. a flamewar... 12:09:43 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-139.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:11:03 <TrueBrain> I always hope one can have a decent conversation about these things 12:11:06 <TrueBrain> but I always forget that never happens :P 12:12:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's why things like ACTA only make it worse... 12:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it further cements a downward spiral 12:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that can only end in a catastrophe 12:12:52 <TrueBrain> ACTA basically means: stop writing software :P 12:12:53 <Eddi|zuHause> even if the actual step it takes is marginal 12:13:04 <TrueBrain> well: stop using Internet 12:14:32 <yno> Alberth: hm thanks, but what of passengers at airports? :p 12:14:37 <TrueBrain> a free world is a dream, only kept alive by people who are not in politics 12:15:21 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-16-233.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yno: it's the sum of all houses in the catchment area 12:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yno: only that you can't see the amount on a per-house basis. but the town window gives the sum over all houses in the town 12:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can use that as an estimate 12:16:33 <yno> well, that's the potential, but this doesnt give me the carried passengers 12:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> again, it is multiplied by the transport rating 12:17:18 <yno> hm oh 12:17:26 <yno> thanks 12:27:32 <TrueBrain> hmm ... what to do with my sunday 12:27:49 <Xaroth> post on a forum to point out somebody on the internet is wrong? 12:28:01 <Xaroth> either that, or diablo III :P 12:28:36 <TrueBrain> cant' get passed act2 12:28:38 <TrueBrain> so annoying 12:29:25 <Xaroth> would happily team up, but got people comming over in .. 20 minutes 12:31:26 <Terkhen> Xaroth: unless new information is provided in the thread, I would advocate for diablo III 12:31:33 <Terkhen> and I don't see that happening 12:31:44 <TrueBrain> there is always someone wrong somewhere on the internet :P 12:32:03 <TrueBrain> when ever I think about it, the xkcd cartoon keeps flashing in my mind :P 12:32:05 <TrueBrain> its funny :D 12:35:12 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:35:20 <andythenorth> ho 12:35:40 <andythenorth> I think I don't need a topology for every source-destination pair 12:35:56 <andythenorth> I need a topology for every cargo-destination pair 12:36:00 <andythenorth> which is simpler 12:36:08 <andythenorth> well, smaller :P 12:36:14 <andythenorth> maybe no simpler :P 12:36:34 <TrueBrain> for the first time in weeks I am reading the forums; it is funny how after years the same topcis are still current :) 12:37:04 <TrueBrain> multithreading, mac, mobile platforms, IS, patchpacks, <random patches not following any coding style>, .. :) 12:37:14 <andythenorth> underground? 12:37:19 * TrueBrain hugs this community; how ever long you are gone, it is always the same when you come back :P 12:38:02 <Xaroth> much like a soap : 12:38:02 <TrueBrain> yeah, why is underground not done yet? :D 12:38:03 <Xaroth> :P 12:39:26 * andythenorth wonders if it (demand) must be based on station nodes....probably yes 12:40:29 <andythenorth> in which case working out backwards from the destination becomes trivial 12:45:12 * FLHerne demands multicore support and infra-sharing, NOW! :P 12:45:29 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: demand away; I demand your patch for it :D 12:45:34 <FLHerne> :D 12:48:07 <andythenorth> destination = 0; first set of nodes = 1, nodes connected to first nodes = 2 etc 12:48:20 <andythenorth> node weighting = shortest number of links from this node to destination 12:48:55 <andythenorth> this method fails for: payment for partial delivery; putting partial delivery back on the map for other players 12:49:17 <andythenorth> this method fails for: modifying payment rates to account for demand 12:49:22 <andythenorth> but it's conceptually simple 12:51:19 <andythenorth> assuming a connection, cargo will join the network at a certain node, and always flow 'downhill' 12:52:00 <andythenorth> moves between equally weighted nodes would be forbidden for practical reasons, even if the overall route would be beneficial 12:52:16 <andythenorth> a 'move' is load/unload, not 'pass through' 12:52:33 <Terkhen> FLHerne: some stuff such as drawing is already done in different threads, and you can share as much infrastructure as you want as long as all players use the same company 12:52:35 <Terkhen> there, done :) 12:52:51 <andythenorth> node weighting would be recalculated using pathfinder code at some sane frequency 12:53:36 <andythenorth> this method fails for: giving GS ways to screw around with node weightings 12:55:20 <andythenorth> need to be able to lift one end of the gradient :P 12:55:25 <andythenorth> or drop the other end :P 12:59:14 <andythenorth> or provide some additional 'link quality' rating 12:59:27 <andythenorth> meh, node weightings are just another form of directed links I guess 12:59:42 <andythenorth> maybe they only need to store the direction (up, down, neutral) 12:59:53 <andythenorth> and have something else to cause links to be preferred or not 13:00:55 * andythenorth has horrible ideas 13:01:24 <andythenorth> arbitrary +ve / -ve values for directed links, not just the direction 13:03:44 * andythenorth reads how cargodist works 13:06:30 <andythenorth> my idea would penalise transfers 13:06:30 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:47 <andythenorth> it would leave cargo on one slow ship rather than reload it between two fast trains 13:06:59 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 13:07:55 <andythenorth> assuming both are in the station simultaneously 13:10:36 <TrueBrain> ha @ Eddi|zuHause 13:10:41 <TrueBrain> no flaming, constructive replies 13:10:47 <TrueBrain> you didn't see that coming now, did you? :P 13:12:01 <TrueBrain> *and I am trolllliinngggg* 13:15:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3065/nodes.png 13:15:39 <andythenorth> I am thinking now that demand and routing might be entirely separate 13:16:22 <andythenorth> probably that makes no sense without more spec 13:17:27 <andythenorth> every cargo packet would have a destination 13:17:36 <andythenorth> every destination would have a node graph 13:17:52 <andythenorth> cargo always routes downhill once on the network 13:18:36 <Terkhen> :O 13:18:49 <Terkhen> constructive replies, I'm honestly surprised :) 13:18:52 <andythenorth> transfer orders would be likely unnecessary with this 13:20:31 <andythenorth> the node graph is formed from the set of vehicle orders 13:20:47 <andythenorth> or maybe from the set of connected stations, not sure which 13:21:28 <andythenorth> vehicles seems more intuitive; stations might be more interesting 13:21:51 <NGC3982> what does 4-2-0 mean in context of old train engines? 13:21:54 <NGC3982> or 2-2-0 13:22:07 <NGC3982> it sounds like some kind of wheel setup? 13:22:45 <Terkhen> no idea 13:23:48 <valhallasw> NGC3982: something like 4 front axles, 2 driving axles, no rear axles 13:23:52 <valhallasw> or possibly wheels 13:24:04 <valhallasw> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-2-0 :-) 13:24:13 <valhallasw> so wheels, not axles 13:24:55 <valhallasw> so it's called the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation 13:25:35 <NGC3982> ah, i see. 13:25:43 <NGC3982> neat, thank you. 13:27:03 <NGC3982> an another thing 13:27:03 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/m9lOH.png 13:27:16 <NGC3982> what on earth am i missing? the trains wont go into depot for replacing :( 13:28:54 <andythenorth> ho ho ho andythenorth has an idea 13:29:13 <andythenorth> instead of calculating links on a company basis, per station 13:29:44 <andythenorth> calculate links for all companies, for any tile in a catchment 13:30:01 <andythenorth> I think there's an edge case where stations could be walked to the destination :P 13:30:18 * andythenorth wants 'unloading' to make the cargo available at that tile for any player 13:30:24 <andythenorth> that would be insanely awesome 13:30:46 <andythenorth> any station covering that tile could pickup the cargo 13:31:28 <andythenorth> awesome potential for all three of collaboration, competition and griefing :) 13:32:24 <NGC3982> :D 13:32:43 <Alberth> NGC3982: disabled breakdowns, and enable 'disable servicing when breakdowns are enabled' ? 13:33:39 <NGC3982> breakdowns are disabled 13:33:47 <NGC3982> two trains have replaced since i pasted the link 13:34:04 <NGC3982> its seems like they have choosen the depot to replace in 13:34:09 <NGC3982> and not the closest? 13:34:18 <Alberth> you were too impatient :) 13:34:43 <andythenorth> hmm 13:34:46 <NGC3982> but what, it doesnt just route to the closest depot? 13:34:47 <Alberth> they look for depots every now and then 13:34:51 <andythenorth> maybe explicit 'unload and get paid' order 13:34:56 <NGC3982> Alberth: hm 13:34:59 <andythenorth> the idea of partial payment interests me 13:34:59 <Alberth> ie not constantly 13:35:13 <andythenorth> feeder payments remain stupid afaict 13:35:43 <NGC3982> aha 13:39:45 <andythenorth> meh, what do we think about infrastructure sharing stuff? 13:39:52 <andythenorth> e.g. shared stations 13:40:34 <Alberth> you steal all my platforms! 13:40:37 <andythenorth> not necessarily shared tracks 13:40:51 <andythenorth> but a union of waiting cargo 13:41:36 <NGC3982> http://www.wimp.com/venustransit/ <3 13:42:26 <andythenorth> is accounting by vehicle silly? 13:42:58 <andythenorth> i.e annual profit / loss 13:43:13 * andythenorth is finding lots of things are unfortunately related :P 13:43:53 <Alberth> first do the core thing 13:44:01 <Terkhen> andythenorth: personally I think "too much work for such a little gain" 13:44:08 <Terkhen> but if someone else does the work... 13:44:10 <Terkhen> :P 13:44:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: first got to figure out what the core thing is :) 13:44:30 <Alberth> this 'someone' is such an awesome guy :) 13:44:42 <Terkhen> yeah 13:44:51 <andythenorth> I don't care if this ever ships, it's a good brain-exercise for me 13:45:06 <andythenorth> if it does get coded, even better 13:45:31 <Terkhen> andythenorth: you should learn multiplatform C++ thread code and do multicore support for us 13:45:38 <Terkhen> that would be an awesome brain exercise for you 13:45:51 <Terkhen> maybe brain melting :P 13:45:51 <andythenorth> awesome in the traditional sense of the word 13:46:04 <Terkhen> no idea of that sense :P 13:46:24 <andythenorth> 'terrifying' 13:46:33 <Terkhen> ooh 13:46:35 <andythenorth> daunting 13:46:38 <Terkhen> those are the best exercises 13:58:06 <Alberth> 'impossible' :) 13:58:40 * Alberth would settle for consists 14:04:44 *** KnogleAFK [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:45 *** Knogle [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 14:10:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.167.38] has joined #openttd 14:16:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.188.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:27:47 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:34:50 <andythenorth> so for this graph, if we stored the direction of the link rather than the weight...that would be interesting 14:34:50 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3065/nodes.png 14:34:55 *** guru3_ [~guru3@stgt-5f72bb80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:35:08 <andythenorth> e.g 3->2 is -1 14:35:35 <andythenorth> and only load cargo for -ve value 14:35:58 <andythenorth> but now allow values such as -2 etc 14:36:07 <andythenorth> thus things like GS could modify values 14:36:29 <andythenorth> for cases like 'avoid congested hubs' 14:36:42 <andythenorth> or 'this town doesn't permit nuclear fuel transport' or such 14:37:12 <andythenorth> a floor / ceiling would be needed to prevent such modifications causing loops 14:37:36 <andythenorth> I'm not very convinced by the idea 14:38:02 <Alberth> you need cycle detection :) 14:38:15 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:38:21 *** NataS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 14:38:49 <andythenorth> I'd rather need 'avoid complicated rules' :) 14:41:39 *** guru3 [~guru3@stgt-5f703baa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:04:08 * andythenorth is not convinced that 'number of hops' is a good way to route 15:04:21 <andythenorth> edge cases could see cargo travelling from one side of map to the other 15:05:19 <andythenorth> this is an inevitable consequence of any scheme to decouple routing from map cartesian co-ordinates :P 15:06:03 <Alberth> as a first approximation it should be fine imho 15:09:46 <andythenorth> the key thing I keep returning to is to have a simple method for loading cargo onto any given vehicle at any given station 15:10:12 <andythenorth> imho everything else in this area should be decoupled cleanly from that 15:10:29 <yno> does the variety of transported stuff impact town growth? 15:11:57 * andythenorth wonders if real transport fees are per ton mile travelled, or per ton mile as crow flies 15:14:39 <Alberth> wouldn't it be a fixed price contract? 15:15:32 <Alberth> yno: nope, it does not matter which transport you use, except for the properties of the transport itself (eg max speed, and capacity and such) 15:16:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: not sure :) It's of no consequence to routing, except that the routing mechanic could cause more money to be paid :P 15:16:24 <andythenorth> currently we use manhattan distance between stations? 15:17:11 <Alberth> something in that direction 15:17:14 <Terkhen> the code is your friend :P 15:17:28 <andythenorth> indeed 15:17:34 <Alberth> I don't know whether the real source / destination is also taken into account 15:17:40 <andythenorth> I am scared to read the transfer code that I need to read :P 15:20:26 <frosch123> oh, why all the bananas discussion? 15:20:42 <frosch123> there are currently 256 newgrfs uploaded, that's the limit, isn't it? 15:22:04 <andythenorth> :) 15:27:32 <NGC3982> bah 15:27:37 <NGC3982> ukrs2+ is hard. 15:27:52 <NGC3982> correction: 15:28:00 <NGC3982> ukrs2+ and FIRS is hard. 15:29:56 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@200.146.4.246.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:53 <andythenorth> hmm 15:35:33 <andythenorth> magic 'warehouses' attached to stations, bridging company networks. The graph could then be the union of the bridged networks 15:35:53 <andythenorth> and player 1 would get paid for source - warehouse leg, player 2 for warehouse -> destination leg 15:36:20 <andythenorth> warehouses must be built explicitly, possibly per-cargo 15:36:58 <andythenorth> cargo won't be put onto network unless there graph includes a route from source to destination 15:37:07 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:37:13 <andythenorth> so no partial payment unless the cargo can actually be delivered 15:37:31 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has joined #openttd 15:43:06 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 15:52:03 *** Mazur [~mazur@546984B2.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:14 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-26-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:13:57 <Xaroth> Rubidium: you should be on vacation, shoo :P 16:14:46 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has joined #openttd 16:16:05 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has joined #openttd 16:20:46 <NGC3982> i have noticed one thing 16:20:49 <NGC3982> but im not sure 16:21:04 <NGC3982> if i put a new station next to an industry and never use it, will that promote the industry closing? 16:22:46 <andythenorth> Alberth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1476/ 16:22:53 <andythenorth> NGC3982: no 16:23:12 <andythenorth> industry closing is quite simple, you can read the code for it if you checkout src 16:23:18 <NGC3982> and if i use the station once (make a pickup and leave)? 16:23:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm pasting another version of that with word-wrap :P 16:24:43 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1477/ 16:25:31 <NGC3982> andythenorth: oh, how does one ..find that? it's in the binarys? 16:26:05 <andythenorth> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/9b82e9397ddf/src/ 16:26:08 <andythenorth> industry_cmd.cpp 16:26:10 <blathijs> ~/win 25 16:26:12 <blathijs> crap 16:26:14 <NGC3982> oh, i see 16:26:21 <NGC3982> blathijs: irssi <3. 16:26:29 <blathijs> NGC3982: INdeed :-) 16:26:41 <NGC3982> though 16:26:51 <NGC3982> i think i shall brake the asberger overlay of this channel with: 16:26:59 * NGC3982 farts smells like tacos 16:27:27 <andythenorth> brake or break? :P 16:28:33 <andythenorth> NGC3982: is your industry primary or secondary? 16:28:46 <andythenorth> newgrf or vanilla? 16:29:38 <NGC3982> oh ..uhm. 16:29:45 <NGC3982> primary, i guess. 16:29:50 <NGC3982> what is vanilla. 16:29:50 <NGC3982> :E 16:29:55 <andythenorth> non-newgrf 16:31:22 <NGC3982> ah, yes, vanilla 16:34:01 <andythenorth> mostly l2497 - 2555 in the file I linked :P 16:34:13 <andythenorth> actually it's not simple :P 16:34:48 <NGC3982> :D 16:36:25 *** Jupix [~jupix@dsl-lprbrasgw1-ff11c100-110.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:39:07 *** kjgh [5c0936a9@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:39:20 *** Jupix [~jupix@dsl-lprbrasgw1-ff11c100-110.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:39:22 <kjgh> hihihihihihihhihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 16:39:28 *** kjgh [5c0936a9@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [] 16:41:04 <andythenorth> oh 16:41:30 <andythenorth> ffs 16:41:40 <andythenorth> does SAC personally approve every file uploaded to her forum? 16:41:45 <andythenorth> in advance? 16:41:49 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-81-77.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:42:30 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:42 <andythenorth> must....not....reply 16:42:54 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd 16:42:56 <andythenorth> last time I got into an argument with SAC I nearly quit ottd stuff completely 16:44:53 <Terkhen> why? :S 16:45:03 <NGC3982> how's that? 16:45:06 <NGC3982> and who is SAC 16:46:00 <andythenorth> stay out of it is my advice :P 16:47:26 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-86-81.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:48:22 <NGC3982> :D 16:53:08 *** jgh [~ashfasdf@cpc2-sgyl36-2-0-cust717.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:55:01 <Terkhen> meh, I barely coded anything this weekend 16:55:04 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so please, stay out of it :P I would hate you quitting OpenTTD over SAC :P 16:55:06 <Terkhen> lazy, lazy Terkhen 16:55:14 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: too late :P 16:55:19 <TrueBrain> I noticed 16:55:20 <TrueBrain> :P 16:55:23 <andythenorth> can't help myself 16:55:31 <TrueBrain> this is so MPAA vs Google 16:55:39 <TrueBrain> MPAA saying Google has to screen content 16:55:45 <TrueBrain> Google saying it can't (legally) be done 16:55:47 <andythenorth> I saw the head of MPAA talk at a film festival once 16:55:48 <TrueBrain> Google won 16:55:54 <andythenorth> the MPAA are nuts 16:55:58 <andythenorth> really 16:56:05 <TrueBrain> their vision is unrealistic 16:56:23 <andythenorth> they get the fundamentals completely utterly wrong 16:56:33 <TrueBrain> it seems that artists tend to create such vision, where they are the center piece; somewhat I can understand it, but ... wake up, this is 2012 16:56:37 <andythenorth> DVDs ship with a message I can't skip saying "don't steal films" 16:56:51 <andythenorth> rather than "thankyou for buying a legitimate DVD" 16:56:59 <TrueBrain> yup 16:57:12 <TrueBrain> in this country, we have to pay a fee which allows us to copy music 16:57:22 <TrueBrain> in the old days, with casettes, you had to pay a fee over empty casettes 16:57:28 <TrueBrain> as you wer emost likely going to copy other casettes 16:57:30 <andythenorth> imagine going into a restaurant, and the first thing they do is put a knife through your hand, staking you to the table in case you try to leave without paying 16:57:35 <TrueBrain> this made it legal to make one copy for yourself at home 16:57:45 <TrueBrain> this fee continues on to CDs, DVDs, and now even MP3 players 16:57:52 <TrueBrain> all fine and all, but the fee is calculated like this: 16:58:01 <TrueBrain> a Casette contains 60 minutes of audio 16:58:03 <TrueBrain> the fee is N 16:58:07 * andythenorth is tempted to join Simuscape 16:58:14 <TrueBrain> a DVD can hold 1 minute for ever 3.5 MiB 16:58:19 * andythenorth probably wouldn't fit the entry criteria for Simuscape 16:58:24 <TrueBrain> 3GB / 3.5 * 60 * N = fee 16:58:40 <TrueBrain> it is THROUGH THE ROOF, and highly unfair ... as how many DVDs do you use to store music these days? 16:58:47 <andythenorth> 0 16:58:50 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/A2dRS.png 16:58:54 <NGC3982> now this is odd 16:59:01 <TrueBrain> it is how old companies react to the modern world 16:59:02 <TrueBrain> they can't cope 16:59:09 <NGC3982> with UKRS2+, i cant use the replace function for 10T to 20T brake vans 16:59:14 <andythenorth> buggy whip scenario 16:59:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: who would take care of your babies if you left? :P 16:59:31 <NGC3982> with the error message "Autorenew failed on Train8, This train requires a brake van" 16:59:46 <andythenorth> Terkhen: more to the point, who would invent new cargo routing mechanics? 16:59:54 <andythenorth> I happen to think this idea is rather good btw 17:00:06 <andythenorth> it's conceptually simple 17:00:20 <andythenorth> it might require quite a lot of....cached data....and updating of caches 17:00:31 <andythenorth> but it's only link graphs, we can do those fast right? 17:00:48 <Terkhen> that too, who would start random suggestions just to make us think about them? :P 17:01:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause of course 17:01:40 * andythenorth wonders if michi_cc has thoughts on the sanity of this http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1477/ 17:01:55 <Terkhen> your suggestions are usually far more farfetched :P 17:03:14 <andythenorth> usually 'remove xyz' :P 17:03:22 <andythenorth> I love removing 17:03:40 <andythenorth> I removed two whole sections this week from an app I maintain 17:05:53 <Terkhen> sadly we have to take care of hysterical raisins... forever :P 17:06:22 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 17:07:18 <andythenorth> we don't really 17:07:26 <andythenorth> we've just convinced ourselves we do :P 17:08:33 <andythenorth> we coud do stuff like aggressively deprecate support for newgrfs older than (current spec -1) 17:08:49 <Terkhen> what purpose would that server? 17:08:51 <Terkhen> serve* 17:08:55 <andythenorth> not sure there's any benefit at all 17:09:07 <andythenorth> we could rip out the default gameplay and replace it with newgrf 17:09:14 <andythenorth> simplifying industry code :P 17:10:27 <michi_cc> andythenorth: If you replace "store several graphs" with "walk link graph if needed" that reads suspiciously similar to YACD :p 17:10:41 <andythenorth> I wondered if it would converge :P 17:10:58 <andythenorth> is it expensive walking the link graph as needed? 17:11:56 <jgh> I notice that some "regular" scenarios work on chill's patchpack, but some of them don't and throw a chuck size error. Might it be possible to load and save them with a vanilla openttd to make work? 17:12:17 <Alberth> unlikely 17:12:27 <Yexo> jgh: most likely the scenarios that give an error are too new 17:12:37 <Yexo> chill's patchpack is based on a really outdated version 17:12:48 <jgh> mm that's what i feared 17:12:55 <jgh> oh well 17:13:02 <Yexo> it basically means you have to convert the scenario from a current version to an older version, which has never been supported 17:13:08 <Alberth> cpp is compatible upto some point, after that you get errors, but you can thus only load them with those newer versions 17:13:10 <jgh> yeah 17:13:39 <Alberth> evenink Yexo 17:13:49 <Yexo> good evening Alberth 17:14:08 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Yes. This is why YACD is slow on large maps/big networks right now, as I spend little time on the cargo routing and a lot more on the destinations "Using means of your choice" :) 17:14:54 <andythenorth> my idea is basically inspired by playing YACD without understanding the implementation much 17:15:04 <michi_cc> Cargo routing needs something different than an A* pathfinder, but that is the only thing readly included in the trunk sources (e.g. lazy :) 17:15:16 <andythenorth> I started from the idea of a spot-price economy, storing cargo price on every tile....and found problems with that idea :P 17:15:41 <andythenorth> routing according to price is insanely hard :P 17:15:46 <frosch123> Zuu: yesterday i added a feature to the newgrf, content and sign list filter to filter on multiple words. does that also make sense for the script breakpoints? 17:20:03 <andythenorth> where is SAC's terms of service / mechanism for reporting abuse? 17:20:11 *** Matulla [~chatzilla@95-89-236-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 17:21:17 <Matulla> hi all i have seen that 1.2.1 is out ! Im on linux lucid 10.04 do i need to uninstall the old packet or just run the new deb over it ? 17:23:37 <andythenorth> I need to check that simuscape is not distributing my copyrighted work 17:26:19 <Terkhen> Matulla: most package managers ask you when you want to update a package, isn't that the case with ubuntu? 17:27:11 <Matulla> openttd is not updated 17:27:27 <Matulla> maybe it is not in the repros at that bersion 17:27:47 <Terkhen> what I mean is: when you try to update any package, your package manager should usually remove the old one and install the new 17:28:12 <Terkhen> that should also be true if you grab a package from outside the repositories and try to install it manually 17:28:28 <Matulla> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+package/openttd 0.7 17:29:06 <Matulla> ok i try 17:30:17 <Matulla> B) :D worked 17:30:25 <Matulla> 1.2.1 running 17:31:20 <Matulla> let me find the main fetures now to get a good running game 17:31:43 * andythenorth has a simuscape account. Can't see any of my copyright being infringed :) 17:32:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I can fix that if you like? 17:33:43 <Alberth> Matulla: starting of the program is a great feature :p 17:33:53 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: an intriguing offer but let's not eh? :) 17:34:21 <TrueBrain> dammit :P 17:34:36 <andythenorth> as a copyright holder, and de-facto the guardian of copyright for other contributors to my sets, I needed to check Simuscape was not a source of infringements 17:35:00 <andythenorth> specifically as SAC has posted screenshots at tt-forums showing modified graphics from my sets 17:36:16 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: translators * r24338 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt: 17:36:16 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:36:16 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: latvian - 1 changes by Parastais 17:36:42 <andythenorth> as a responsible copyright holder, I feel bound to check simuscape 17:37:44 <andythenorth> as I hold the opinion (no evidence, these are only ungrounded suspicions, not presented as truth or fact) that Simuscape may be a private membership club for the distribution of digital artefacts that infringe copyright, colloquially known as 'warez' 17:38:44 <Terkhen> andythenorth: create an account and check that forum and simutrans everyday 17:39:01 <andythenorth> there is an additional private section of Simuscape that I do not have access to yet 17:39:25 *** al3x [~Miranda@91-65-88-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 17:39:33 <andythenorth> "Artists Guild". My suspicion is that if there is infringement taking place (I have no evidence there is, nor do I claim factually there is), that is where it might be. 17:39:36 <al3x> hello world! 17:39:48 <DorpsGek> hello to you too 17:40:08 <Pinkbeast> Going back a bit, RRT3 did route-by-spot-price and this produced endless trouble with getting past local max/minima 17:40:26 <andythenorth> I don't fit the rules for admission to Artist's Guild 17:41:00 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what are those rules? 17:41:08 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you can't see them 17:41:13 <andythenorth> you have to register 17:41:21 <andythenorth> and I can't repost them - that would infringe copyright 17:41:40 <andythenorth> I am going to PM SAC requesting access to Artists' Guild, and if I have not been granted access, or told that access is in process within a reasonable timeframe, I'm going to notify the ISP that I suspect copyright infringement 17:41:49 <andythenorth> what is a reasonable time frame? 10 days? 17:42:36 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I think that you should sleep on that decision :) 17:43:00 <andythenorth> I need to protect my rights, and the rights of those on who's behalf I act :) 17:43:07 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: think about your blood preasure 17:43:11 <TrueBrain> and just leave the boy alone 17:43:16 <andythenorth> I should file this under "don't be a wanker" 17:43:18 <andythenorth> but seriously 17:43:55 <andythenorth> shall we discuss cargo routing instead? 17:44:41 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-139.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 17:44:43 <Terkhen> sounds more constructive 17:44:45 <Terkhen> :) 17:47:15 <Zuu> frosch123: If you want to match on spaces or two words, how does one do that with your changes? 17:47:26 <Zuu> Is " string" ok? 17:48:02 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:49:26 *** Matulla [~chatzilla@95-89-236-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 13.0/20120601201853]] 17:50:16 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:4871:aee9:1c3c:9f06] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:28 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:4871:aee9:1c3c:9f06] has joined #openttd 17:51:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: or much more serious: I am out of Coca Cola 17:51:17 <andythenorth> quite bad 17:51:22 <andythenorth> fortunately there are shops 17:51:28 <TrueBrain> the next best thing I have is beer 17:51:37 <TrueBrain> there are shops, but none I can get into without some kind of tool atm :P 17:51:43 <andythenorth> and your currency is stiil not collapsed 17:51:51 <andythenorth> oh shops are shut? 17:51:58 <TrueBrain> I live in a country with a strong market, so that won't happen no :P 17:52:00 <TrueBrain> its sunday 17:52:11 <andythenorth> we used to have those in the uk 17:52:16 <andythenorth> now we have retailing instead 17:54:03 <frosch123> Zuu: you can quote with " and ' like in a unix shell 17:55:05 <Zuu> oh 17:55:06 <frosch123> "bla 'boo'"'doo " hoo' matches for bla 'boo'doo " hoo 17:55:29 <andythenorth> so no comments on the 'Warehousing' suggestion I made for orders in my paste above? 17:56:19 <andythenorth> strikes me that if cargo is routed by a specific graph, it's trivial to merge graphs across companies 17:57:15 <Zuu> frosch123: I guess it could make sense to allow OR:ing togeather strings. Which is what you do by threading un-quoted spaces as OR. 17:57:44 <Alberth> s/threading/treating/ I hope :) 17:58:14 <frosch123> Zuu: they are treated as AND 17:58:27 <frosch123> quoted strings are taken as a whole 18:00:07 <frosch123> so you could still do the same as before by quoting the whole input 18:00:10 <Zuu> frosch123: hmm, I don't know if it is inutuative, but I guess it might be useful for someone. Did you see FS#5206 (a recent patch by me "fix" break on log to also work with game scripts) 18:00:40 <Zuu> Your change is however not really in conflict with my patch. 18:01:40 <frosch123> i would only change the two lines containing strstr and strcasestr 18:02:08 <frosch123> i think it would basically allow to place multiple breakpoints 18:02:30 <Zuu> I guess, since you have made this change for the other search/match fields in OpenTTD, it makes sense to have it here for consintency. 18:02:58 <Zuu> As you say it also adds some new ways to use it. (but requires existing usage of it to change a bit (add quotes)) 18:05:03 <frosch123> ok, i'll add it, so it can be tested :) 18:19:21 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:25:51 <andythenorth> hmm 18:26:06 * andythenorth is bored 18:26:31 <andythenorth> suggestions? 18:27:34 <Alberth> read about the focussed D* algorithm ? 18:28:27 * Alberth is pondering some sort of Python experiment 18:29:23 * andythenorth has been trying to find Simuscape's abuse email :P 18:30:18 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-135.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:30:42 <andythenorth> what are we going to do with D* ? 18:31:17 <Alberth> it's A*, but once you have a path, you can adjust it for changes 18:31:33 <Alberth> without recomputing everything 18:32:11 * andythenorth had better read about A* again 18:32:13 <andythenorth> first 18:32:53 <andythenorth> asking SAC how she can help me protect my rights is going to be painful not fun :( Might avoid that for now 18:33:51 <andythenorth> ho 18:34:21 <andythenorth> in my plan for weighting nodes by number of links, it would be permissible to abort 18:34:39 <andythenorth> for any given node, if another sequence uses more than than the currently stored weight, it's time to stop 18:34:49 * andythenorth is a graph theory newbie :P 18:35:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 18:35:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:35:23 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 18:35:48 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:37:06 <andythenorth> hmm 18:37:14 <andythenorth> my scheme demands walking the entire graph 18:38:08 <Alberth> I am also wondering how to use the ant colony idea here 18:38:37 <Alberth> it seems that once you have arrived you deposit pheronomes along the path you traveled 18:38:42 <Alberth> ie afterwards 18:38:54 <andythenorth> on the way back :P 18:39:29 <andythenorth> my scheme is pretty simple - it just stores num nodes on a link. It would be easy for graphs that are not very interconnected 18:39:45 <andythenorth> a nice tidy tree would be easily done 18:39:53 <andythenorth> but if a lot of nodes are multiply connected to other nodes might be...inefficient 18:39:57 <andythenorth> oh, but they would form a set 18:40:02 <andythenorth> and could be optimised out 18:40:17 * andythenorth suspects it's not that easy :) 18:40:49 <andythenorth> it's just a shortest path problem :P 18:44:15 <andythenorth> I don't even need shortest path measuring link distance 18:44:21 <andythenorth> just shortest number of nodes 18:44:46 <al3x> hey folks... i'm just working on a presentation about openttd as an outstanding open source software game project. i'm about to finish my researches and am just wondering: is there a special hidden detail, a funny spoof, eastereggs or crazy features being planned for upcoming versions? any hint would be appreciated :) 18:45:09 <Sacro> pssh 18:45:13 <Sacro> it's no fun if we tell you 18:45:22 <al3x> Sacro: oh come on ;) 18:45:29 <Sacro> hehe 18:45:31 <andythenorth> ho 18:45:48 <andythenorth> xmlnfogrfs 18:46:03 <andythenorth> definitely planned for 1.3 18:46:22 <andythenorth> definitely not started ;) 18:46:35 <andythenorth> instead of encoding newgrfs in nfo (bytecode), we'd encode them in xml 18:46:45 <Yexo> al3x: what are you looking for? Something a player might notice, something about development, something about user cooperation or newgrf development? 18:47:10 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-152-250-188.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:47:13 <andythenorth> the format would be <node type="byte">0A</node><node type="word">3F80</node> 18:47:33 <andythenorth> :P 18:48:07 <Yexo> s@</node>@ @ s@<node type="byte">@ 18:48:07 <al3x> andythenorth: thanks, sounds reasonable, why didnt you (programmers) do it in the first place? 18:48:24 <Yexo> s@</node>@ @ s@<node type="byte">@\bx@ s@<node type="word">@\wx@ 18:48:37 <andythenorth> indeed 18:48:52 <andythenorth> very sensible 18:48:57 <al3x> hehe i see 18:49:04 <andythenorth> you asked for spoofs :P 18:49:13 <andythenorth> the humour here isn't of the highest standard tbh 18:49:24 <andythenorth> we won't win any awards 18:49:53 <andythenorth> there are no easter eggs I know of 18:50:09 <andythenorth> big new features aren't really known in advance ;) 18:50:12 <Yexo> wasn't there some easter egg grf? 18:50:19 <al3x> Yexo: well, since it's a computer science course, i'm interested both in development and playing-related information :) 18:50:26 <andythenorth> there are various easter egg / silly grfs 18:50:34 <andythenorth> one that changes 'goods' to 'stuff' 18:50:43 <andythenorth> one that makes the ufo available as a plane 18:50:48 <andythenorth> one that adds christmas tree 18:51:34 <al3x> cool, i will ask google for it 18:51:46 <al3x> *about 18:51:53 <andythenorth> try tt-forums search 18:52:12 <andythenorth> sounds like a nice presentation :) 18:52:54 <al3x> every ottd-presentation is a nice presentation i guess ;) 18:53:01 <frosch123> al3x: the plan is to move more functions to the right mouse button 18:53:10 <frosch123> to spoil users of touchscreens 18:53:31 <Terkhen> al3x: you can check some features that already prepared and implemented for 1.3.x in the changelog 18:53:40 <andythenorth> ho 18:53:43 <Terkhen> some are quite nice but I wouldn't call them "crazy" or "easter eggs" :P 18:53:55 <frosch123> Terkhen: he, that's the first answer, which is no trolling :o 18:55:04 * andythenorth could work on some trucks or something :P 18:55:09 * andythenorth is tempted to do actual work 18:55:16 <andythenorth> making actual internet 18:55:24 <al3x> frosch123: hehe :) well to be honest, i like the right mouse-button scrolling ^^ 18:55:58 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:57:13 <al3x> Terkhen: thanks, im going to look into the changelog 18:58:54 <al3x> i hope i can find some comparison images.. original ttd vs. new graphics 18:59:29 <Terkhen> for that you might want to check the OpenGFX thread 18:59:51 <Terkhen> and, if you own the original TTD, you can just use the original graphics set and do some screenshots yourself 19:00:24 <al3x> yeah... would be so easy... ;) 19:00:56 <NataS> or just pirate it :P 19:01:32 *** lugo [GBerten293@oxygen.evosurge.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:02:18 <al3x> hmm... well i will consider it. might be a good live comparison 19:02:54 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/titlegame/round2/index.html al3x screenshots from the titlegame competition 19:02:54 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 19:03:50 <Terkhen> ooh, good idea to link those, I forgot about them :P 19:04:12 <al3x> Alberth, thank you very much. thats great, better than enything expected :) 19:04:55 <Alberth> it just has this annoying intro window everywhre :) 19:05:13 <al3x> hehe, good for me ;) 19:06:04 <al3x> since ive got your attention. what do you think about simutrans as a competitor? http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=openttd%2Csimutrans&cmpt=q 19:06:16 <al3x> rival or colleague? 19:07:02 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/titlegame/round1/ has many more screen shots 19:07:02 <andythenorth> fellow traveller 19:07:06 <Terkhen> I have never tried it so I can't talk about it 19:07:17 <Terkhen> I went into OpenTTD because I loved the original TTD 19:07:22 <Alberth> games are totally different 19:07:37 <Terkhen> since simutrans isn't exactly the same thing, I did not feel compelled to try it 19:07:43 <Terkhen> they are games for different tastes I guess 19:07:53 <Alberth> it does cargo-dest 19:08:17 <NataS> I hate Simutrans, but wish OTTD had all it's cool features. 19:08:31 <__ln__> that's impossible 19:08:48 <Alberth> __ln__: he wants to hate OpenTTD too :p 19:10:33 <al3x> Alberth: thanks for the additional screenshots - now i have to choose between all them... :( hehe 19:10:48 <Kylie> i prefeer openttd 19:10:48 * andythenorth wonders if players would care about cargo not taking shortest / fastest route 19:10:56 <Kylie> simutrans not my thing 19:11:03 <Kylie> i did try it 19:11:08 <Kylie> but nope 19:11:16 * FLHerne would care 19:11:41 <andythenorth> would you though? :) 19:11:52 <FLHerne> Yes ;-) 19:12:00 <Alberth> al3x: everybody plays temperate, almost nobody plays toyland, yet it has very nicely animated industries 19:12:16 <andythenorth> actually it might be a non problem 19:12:35 <NataS> i play tropical almost exclusively :p 19:12:47 <al3x> i didnt look into simutrans, but i think it said -no-multiplayer- so i dismissed it. 19:12:59 <Alberth> I think it's not a big problem, as long as it does not happen too much 19:13:14 <andythenorth> shouldn't happen at all, except in pathological cases 19:13:24 <andythenorth> hmm 19:13:37 <FLHerne> I would probably create such cases on a regular basis, though :P 19:13:45 <andythenorth> depends on definition of 'shortest' and/or 'fastest' :P 19:13:47 <Alberth> not sure, people also expect cargo to evenly use all routes 19:14:13 <andythenorth> I am only counting number of hops. I read the cargodist docs on balancing; trying to estimate link capacity seems hard / foolhardy 19:14:25 * FLHerne tends to create massive interconnected messes of all transport modes, with about 10 possible routes for everything :D 19:14:37 <al3x> ever heard about locomotion? (by chris sawyer) 19:14:52 <Alberth> andythenorth: just amount of waiting cargo? 19:15:13 <Alberth> al3x: he, you are here with transport fanatics :) 19:15:24 <Alberth> aka, duh :) 19:15:42 <al3x> hehe.. its all a test, you know ;) 19:15:57 <NataS> ugh, Locomotion 19:15:58 <Alberth> oh, did I pass? :) 19:16:04 <NataS> even worse than Simutrans 19:16:17 <NataS> Uglier than simutrans, and less features 19:16:45 <Alberth> al3x: pretty pictures, but much less scalability 19:16:50 <andythenorth> in my routing system, both of these routes are valid 19:16:51 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3066/nodes_case.png 19:17:10 <al3x> before i started researching ive never heard about locomotion. looking at some screenshots, im not really sad about it 19:17:12 <andythenorth> despite that one might be much longer (measured in tiles) 19:17:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Worrying :-( 19:17:25 <andythenorth> work it through... 19:17:40 <Yexo> al3x: ever heard about transport empire? or p1sim? 19:17:42 <andythenorth> the long route might use faster vehicles, or lower running cost vehicles, or be less congested 19:17:56 <andythenorth> there's no simple deterministic way to measure that, too many variables 19:18:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: seems fine to me to have 2 routes 19:18:14 <FLHerne> Depends how good it is at figuring it out then, I suppose 19:18:19 <andythenorth> therefore the abiding rule in my scheme is 'cargo hates to be transshipped' 19:18:28 <andythenorth> irl, cargo hates to be transshipped 19:18:28 <al3x> Yexo: no, but im about to google it right away :) 19:18:31 <FLHerne> AAARGH! 19:18:49 <Alberth> al3x: tt-forums.net :) 19:19:01 <Yexo> al3x: don't bother, but you can save yourself some time and just look at tt-forums.net 19:19:04 <FLHerne> My entire network is based on transhipping everything, everywhere :P 19:19:13 <andythenorth> mine tend to be too 19:19:15 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=57 19:19:30 <andythenorth> transshipping still works, but cargo hates it 19:19:44 <al3x> Alberth: thx! 19:19:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: ant optimization may do cargo link capacity all by itself 19:19:59 <FLHerne> Which is bad if some routes have 10 or so transfers :-( 19:20:11 <andythenorth> I think capacity is for the player :) 19:20:19 <andythenorth> work it through, the short route on the left, the vehicles cycle faster 19:20:32 <andythenorth> my scheme makes no attempt to determine optimum total route 19:20:38 <andythenorth> it just favours fewest hops 19:20:49 <andythenorth> the decision is made when cargo is loaded to a vehicle 19:21:08 <andythenorth> so adjusting the number / cycle time of vehicles lets player control where cargo actually goes 19:21:41 <andythenorth> it's slightly pathological to get exactly the same number of hops on such varying route lengths anyway :P 19:21:49 <FLHerne> Hop-counting sounds like a bad idea, would certainly wreck my network at the moment... 19:21:54 <andythenorth> why? 19:22:42 *** GBerten2936 [bnc4free@oxygen.evosurge.com] has joined #openttd 19:22:45 <andythenorth> there are certain conditions I should mention, e.g. cargo *destination* is not determined by number of hops 19:22:49 <andythenorth> just the routing 19:23:15 <andythenorth> and it's scale free with respect to actual number of hops in use 19:23:19 <FLHerne> If a straight route across a bay is [RV -> Tram -> Train -> Tram -> Ship -> Tram] (all but train very short) versus [Train to far side of map -> Train back again], that will be a problem :-( 19:23:33 <andythenorth> true 19:23:34 * FLHerne draws a picture 19:24:32 <andythenorth> you can use 3, or 300 hops, the routing wouldn't care. It would just pick the smallest number of hops to route by, from the available choices 19:24:58 <andythenorth> if route A has 300 hops and route B has 299, route B is used 19:25:36 <andythenorth> biab 19:25:36 <Alberth> hmm, can you attach different orders to a autorefit ? 19:25:43 <Yexo> what happens if you both two routes, route A with 4 hops and route B with 5 hops. Will the cargo start to take route B when route A is overloaded? 19:26:35 <Alberth> Yexo: my guess is 'no' 19:28:22 <FLHerne> The problem: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=160961 19:33:05 * FLHerne worries about oversimplistic cargo routeing 19:33:31 <Terkhen> like the one we have right now? :P 19:38:11 <Alberth> no routing at all causes less problems :p 19:39:13 <Terkhen> I just want YACD :P 19:43:37 * FLHerne is quite happy with CargoDist 19:44:07 <FLHerne> YACD is annoying, I don't like the game dictating where to run trains 19:44:36 <NataS> ^ 19:44:56 <FLHerne> I don't get the performance issues that people moan about - why can't it just be trunked as an option? 19:44:58 <NataS> but cargo dist is exploitable, and can break in long chains 19:45:11 <NataS> but it's better than nothing 19:45:15 <NataS> I can't imagine playing without it 19:45:19 <andythenorth> Yexo: if route A is overloaded, fix route A :P 19:45:19 <NataS> it ought to be trunked 19:45:40 <FLHerne> I haven't noticed any bugs or breaking, what's exploitable? 19:46:06 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:13 <andythenorth> but also my scheme pays no attention to load factors. If a vehicle travelling route B arrives at your station, it will be loaded with cargo for route B 19:46:19 <andythenorth> actually not :P 19:46:22 <NataS> well there's nothing stoping you from only sending goods to the town on the other side of the map 19:46:28 <NataS> but that's possible in normal too 19:46:31 <NataS> so IDK 19:46:32 <NataS> maybe not 19:47:06 <NataS> i guess the problem is, there's no real advantage to distributing as opposed to just shiping as much as you can as far as you can. 19:47:06 <andythenorth> FLHerne: in your diagram, the route on the left is shorter so would be favoured 19:47:19 <andythenorth> actually, where's the start point? :P 19:47:33 <FLHerne> Top left to top right :P 19:47:45 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:47:47 <andythenorth> ok so cargo would take the very long route 19:47:57 <andythenorth> fewer hops :) 19:48:06 <Alberth> nice and easy to predict :) 19:48:10 <FLHerne> That's the problem, yes... 19:48:21 <andythenorth> very easy to predict 19:48:29 *** al3x [~Miranda@91-65-88-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Have a nice day! Cya] 19:48:51 <Alberth> andythenorth: do you count station, or transfer stations? 19:49:00 <andythenorth> stations 19:49:03 <Yexo> is a "hop" defined as a place where cargo has to be transfered between vehicles or a place where a vehicle has to stop? 19:49:04 <andythenorth> transfers would be automatic 19:49:04 <Terkhen> FLHerne: IIRC it was relatively easy to add cargodist to YACD 19:49:22 <Yexo> nvm, you answered that :) 19:49:27 <andythenorth> hops are explicit (not implicit) orders I think 19:49:28 <FLHerne> Most of my 'intended' routes have myriad transfers, so I'd probably get all the cargo using accidentally-formed ones instead... 19:49:39 * andythenorth wonders if implicit orders would need to be counted 19:49:47 <Alberth> so if you add say 100 drive-through station to the long route, it would take the short route instead? 19:49:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne: your case is well made 19:49:48 <FLHerne> Terkhen: to produce what effect? 19:49:51 <Yexo> explicit and implicit orders need to be treated exactly the same 19:50:00 <andythenorth> Alberth: possibly :P 19:50:29 <Alberth> cargo hates stations in general :p 19:50:33 <Yexo> FLHerne: so the user can chose between the yacd and cargodist routing options 19:51:03 <FLHerne> Oh, ok. That would be ideal :D 19:51:05 <andythenorth> my plan is that cargo prefers links with lower 'weight'. Default calculation for 'weight' is num hops 19:51:14 <andythenorth> then expose it to GS or plugins or such 19:51:14 * FLHerne wants it yesterday :D 19:51:17 <andythenorth> for complicated crap :P 19:51:32 <FLHerne> Performance? 19:51:41 <Yexo> ^^ scripts are too slow 19:51:58 <Alberth> FLHerne: find a light-weight cargo routing algorithm :) 19:52:28 <andythenorth> find a light-weight, predictable, reliable cargo routing algorithm, that is MP safe and supports all play styles 19:52:32 <andythenorth> :P 19:52:38 <Terkhen> FLHerne: a triple switch allowing you to set "none", "cargodist" or "yacd" behavior 19:53:00 <Terkhen> but yeah, performance is the biggest issue here 19:53:29 <FLHerne> I've been using CargoDist for 18 months now, still don't see any problems with it :-) 19:53:52 <FLHerne> I don't have an insanely fast PC, either :P 19:54:36 * andythenorth ponders FLHerne's diagram 19:54:54 <andythenorth> FLHerne: I conclude your route is silly :) 19:55:17 <Alberth> good night all 19:55:30 <andythenorth> bye Alberth 19:55:53 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 19:56:11 <andythenorth> the route shows the possibility of unintended consequences :| 19:56:31 <FLHerne> Well - I use HEQS lorries in the mountains, and trains to the coast, and trams to get through towns to the port, and ships across the bay, and trams to the transfer yard on the other side, and then more trains, and then trams :D 19:57:14 <FLHerne> *Generic idea, not necessarily specific description of a particular service 19:58:17 <andythenorth> bah 19:58:31 <andythenorth> calculating the actual route length would be possible I guess 20:00:43 <frosch123> maybe you should just leave the routing decision to the player :) 20:01:04 <frosch123> calculate prices depending on supply and demand 20:01:15 <frosch123> but let the players decide which destination shall hop on which vehicle 20:01:57 <frosch123> magic automatics do not necessarily improve gameplay 20:04:56 <andythenorth> maybe indeed 20:05:25 <andythenorth> I wanted to find a way to simplify transfers 20:07:24 <andythenorth> keep the entire current system, change only the economy? :P 20:08:04 <frosch123> you still need to control when to transfer or when to deliver arriving cargo 20:08:34 <andythenorth> yup 20:08:38 <frosch123> so, you could configure at a station: accept this percentage of cargo, transfer this percentage to this group of vehicles, the rest goes to the other group 20:08:41 <andythenorth> I didn't have an answer for 'when to unload' 20:09:09 <frosch123> more like the simutrans approach: first the orders, then the vehicles :p 20:09:21 <andythenorth> ah, routes :P 20:09:29 <andythenorth> everything is connected :P 20:09:48 <andythenorth> routes is shared orders, shared orders are (according to some) groups, groups are (according to some) consists 20:09:51 <frosch123> the main advantage: if the player decides what amount of cargo goes on which route, you do not have to bother about conditional orders and such stuff 20:09:52 <andythenorth> the wheel of life turns :P 20:09:55 <frosch123> just pay less :) 20:10:26 <andythenorth> simples 20:13:37 <frosch123> you also do not have issues with supply cargos. you can just deliver where you want them to and not bother about payment 20:13:38 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:14:00 <frosch123> so you have no conflicts between cargo routing and industry production behaviour 20:14:09 <andythenorth> yup 20:14:26 <andythenorth> localised demand curve 20:14:48 * andythenorth ponders 20:19:10 <andythenorth> seems hard to untie 'demand' from newgrf industry / houses 20:20:56 <andythenorth> hmm 20:20:57 <frosch123> if you let newgrfs decide the payment, and the routing decide the payment everything should be fine, shoudn't it? 20:21:15 <andythenorth> payment / demand /s ? 20:21:27 <frosch123> if a industry refuses to accept cargo, while the routing things it shall take a lot of cargo, you get high payment for few cargos 20:21:41 <frosch123> if the newgrf accepts unlimited, the payment limits what it worth delivering 20:22:12 <andythenorth> so how would demand be modified? Newgrf decides? Or based on frequence of delivered cargo or such? 20:22:17 <frosch123> [22:29] <frosch123> if you let newgrfs decide the payment, and the routing decide the payment everything should be fine, shoudn't it? <- i meant: newgrfs decide acceptance, routing decides payment 20:22:27 <andythenorth> :) 20:22:46 <andythenorth> I like the clean separation 20:22:52 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Does Simuscape have any abuse contact information, maybe hidden inside the registration wall, or is SAC not doing what she's demanding? 20:23:11 <andythenorth> it has the PHPBB standard 20:23:14 <andythenorth> ach 20:23:15 <andythenorth> it has: 20:23:22 <andythenorth> - the PHPBB standard ToS 20:23:38 <andythenorth> - which disclaims any responsibility 20:23:41 <michi_cc> (Better check twice or my post is going to be silly) 20:23:47 <andythenorth> - it has an administrators page 20:24:22 <michi_cc> Wants me to register, so doesn't count. 20:24:28 <andythenorth> - it has a 'welcome center' 20:24:39 <andythenorth> no there's no information for you without registering afaict 20:25:01 <michi_cc> Good ;) 20:25:07 <andythenorth> beware that there are some links that are so low contrast - they don't just fail 508 / DDA - they fail to be visible to me who has grade A eyesight 20:25:13 <andythenorth> so there may be links I'm failing to see 20:26:02 <andythenorth> as a rights owner, I had to register to see if my work is being infringed 20:26:23 <andythenorth> I then have to be approved for registration in a special members area where the graphics work is shared 20:26:58 <andythenorth> I can't see any ToS etc 20:27:41 <andythenorth> it also illegally sets cookies 20:28:02 <andythenorth> and provides no privacy policy, no cookie policy, no ownership information afaict 20:28:34 <andythenorth> it's not clear who I would contact for: 20:28:41 <andythenorth> - a DMCA / EDEC violation 20:28:52 <andythenorth> - a privacy violation or concern about how my data is used 20:29:09 <andythenorth> e.g. it collects more than one piece of sensitive personal data (email, my IP I assume) 20:29:22 <andythenorth> - it sets cookies without my consent 20:31:18 <andythenorth> whois does give a gmail address, which might be a useful first point of contact 20:31:44 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 20:31:44 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Killed (resistance.oftc.net (Nick collision (new)))] 20:32:18 <planetmaker> who has access to 'whois'? (yes, everyone, but... who 'normal' user knows about it? 20:32:22 <planetmaker> ) 20:34:29 <andythenorth> I make no judgement 20:34:37 <andythenorth> I'm sticking to facts I can substantiate 20:35:46 <andythenorth> hmm 20:35:58 <andythenorth> demand-per-cargo on every tile 20:36:20 <andythenorth> ho ho, that would have the side effect of slightly penalising station walking 20:36:56 * andythenorth thinks the Warehouse order is genius and should be explored until it's broken :P 20:37:10 <andythenorth> "Goto X and Warehouse" 20:37:43 <andythenorth> puts the cargo back on the map at that point 20:37:59 <andythenorth> distributing it to any nearby station 20:38:01 <planetmaker> demand per tile... isn't that what yacd basically did? Actually... what houses and industry DO? 20:38:15 <andythenorth> doesn't vary price ;) 20:38:34 <andythenorth> I'm doing without routing etc in this (new / old) idea 20:38:39 <andythenorth> just adjust price 20:38:47 <andythenorth> routing is...hard :P 20:39:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: conditional order: goto A if price at A > price at B, else go to B 20:39:30 <andythenorth> shipping lines do that :P 20:40:09 <andythenorth> ships wait at sea to see which market offers best spot price on commodities 20:49:25 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-152-250-188.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:51:12 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-022-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 20:55:00 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:55:22 <frosch123> night 20:55:26 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f685d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:58 <NGC3982> http://www.nature.com/news/south-korea-surrenders-to-creationist-demands-1.10773 20:56:32 <andythenorth> if I figure it out right, a demand (price) function does something to reduce the annoying part of the 'get paid to transport halfway across the map' issue 20:56:44 <andythenorth> the annoying part being when there are other, closer sources of supply 20:56:58 <andythenorth> whereas the payment method (distance, speed) is correct 20:57:54 <andythenorth> the presence of a nearby source of supply could reduce the demand at destination, thereby reducing the price gradient between the destination and far-off sources of supply 20:58:22 <andythenorth> depends if I figure it out right though :P 20:58:44 <andythenorth> good ngiht 20:58:46 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:58:53 <Terkhen> NGC3982: that's sad 20:59:19 <NGC3982> i dont even understand how that happend 20:59:46 <Terkhen> powerful lobbying and lots of money 21:00:09 <Terkhen> and... people preferring to believe simpler things :) 21:00:28 <NGC3982> i guess 21:02:42 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-022-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 21:06:49 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-152-250-188.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0/20120605113340]] 21:15:10 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 21:17:55 *** Snail [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 21:26:31 <Terkhen> good night 21:38:55 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-139.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 21:46:09 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-26-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:51:12 <Wolf01> 'night all 21:51:21 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:52:11 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 21:54:14 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:56 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 21:59:27 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:02:46 <planetmaker> good night 22:04:47 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:08:49 * NataS is slowpoke, but Supply and demand would be nice 22:09:23 <NataS> because it's kind of anoying how the best way to play is to ignore the closest and just send goods to the other side of the map 22:29:22 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d822472.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 22:43:36 *** Hazzard [~72f657d9@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 22:57:10 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@200.146.4.246.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 23:10:36 *** Hazzard [~72f657d9@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:49:10 *** Hazzard [~7c418246@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 23:52:24 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-022-234.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 23:52:37 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd