Log for #openttd on 30th June 2012:
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07:20:07  <andythenorth> oops
07:20:14  * andythenorth broke the YouTube rule
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07:41:34  <Terkhen> good morning
07:42:06  <Alberth> moin
07:45:57  <andythenorth> morning
07:50:01  <planetmaker> moin
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08:13:56  <Wolf01> hello
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08:16:28  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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08:17:29  <Beul> good morning
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08:18:29  <Terkhen> hi Beul
08:20:34  <Beul> acording to this (2 year old) post the only way to get tow different tunnel portals in 1 game is to replace the monorail/maglev tracks. Is this still the case?
08:22:56  <Terkhen> to my knowledge, you can't have different tunnel portals with the same railtype
08:23:55  <Terkhen> I don't know if it is possible to include differences based on date or other factors with railtype NewGRFs
08:27:01  <Beul> What I want to do is introduce a new rail type on whitch trains form other railtypes can run, and assign a different tunnelportal to it. It seems that the only way to do this is to replace the monorail.maglev tracks. Just wanted to chek if that was still the case
08:27:30  <Beul> I do realise that is is not possible to have different tunnels for the same railtype
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08:29:11  <Terkhen> you can have additional railtypes, for example monorail_tunnel_1, nonorail_tunnel_2 and so on
08:29:26  <Terkhen> but I'm not sure about the "define tunnel for railtype" part either :)
08:29:33  <Terkhen> you should check the NewGRF specs
08:30:38  <planetmaker> Beul: each railtype can have its own tunnel entrance
08:30:53  <planetmaker> you can change them depending on time. But it would change also existing tunnel portals then
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08:34:28  <Beul> planetmaker: whitch callback do I need to define the portals for a new railtype? as the tunnel_overlay only replaces the track sprites?
08:37:56  <Beul> and replace [<block_name>](<sprite-id>[, <image-file>]) {
08:37:56  <Beul> 	list of realsprites
08:37:56  <Beul> } replaces other tunnel portals as well
08:39:21  <planetmaker> Beul: it's not a callback.
08:39:29  <planetmaker> It's the tunnel_portals spriteset
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08:40:42  <planetmaker> explains the NML terminology and should give you an illustration of the sprites needed :-)
08:41:25  <planetmaker> read in the latter link the section on tunnel portal overlay
08:43:47  <Beul> thy :D needed the info from the second link. allready got the right sprites (I hope) will see if this works
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09:26:09  <andythenorth> Ammler: any idea why CHIPS 1.0.0 release not on bundles server?
09:31:01  <Ammler> andythenorth: triggered, check again in 10mins
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09:50:02  <Beul> planetmaker: If I understand correctly the sprites needed for tunnel_overlay are 2 for the south-is entrances, based on sprite 4 from this ( ) image?
09:50:17  <Beul> and 2 for the northern entrances
09:55:15  <andythenorth> Ammler: thanks
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10:07:57  <andythenorth> does anyone want to hold this baby while I write code?
10:10:04  <Beul> andythenorth: can't you code a newGRF for that?
10:10:09  <Beul> :p
10:10:22  <andythenorth> there's a meta problem there
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10:12:08  <Beul> I'm giving up with railtypes for tunnel. Just going to override malgev for now until someone can help me figure out how to use the graphics { tunnel and tunnel_overlay callback in stead of replace :(
10:13:03  <Beul> if I use replace all works fine, but the tunnel and tunnel_overlay callback do not seem to be doing anything
10:17:26  <planetmaker> Beul: yes, four sprites, one per direction. the tunnel overlay must contain the part which is drawn on top of the train. The tunnel track sprite must contain the part of the portal possibly hidden by the train
10:18:09  <planetmaker> so both, the tunnel track has one sprite per directio nand the tunnel overlay. Both contain part of the tunnel portal
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10:38:46  <Beul> that is what i thougt planetmaker, and my sprites do contain that, however if i use the callbakc like this:  item(FEAT_RAILTYPES, item_NewRail) {graphics {
10:38:46  <Beul> 	tunnels					:spriteset_Urban_Tunnel;
10:38:46  <Beul> 	tunnel_overlay				:spriteset_Urban_Tunnel_Overlay;
10:38:46  <Beul> 	} ,nothing seems to happen
10:39:26  <Beul> the sprites are read properly because if I use the same sprites with a replace callback is does work
10:44:18  <Hirundo> Beul: try setting the 'label' property to "RAIL" before defining the graphics
10:47:22  <Beul> allready tried that, does not help Hirundo
10:48:21  <Beul> I don't thik is tis the label or other properties, because if I trie catenary_wire and catenary_poles it does show up ingame
10:48:49  <Beul> *try
10:50:16  <Hirundo> Beul: <- Read the comment below the table
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10:52:08  <Beul> ok, so elimimating the track underlay and only using the overlay should solve it
10:52:15  <Beul> will give that a try
10:53:02  <Beul> i mean eliminating the tunnel callback :p
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10:56:01  <Hirundo> Beul: Although the documentation says so, OpenTTD source code tells me it won't work...
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10:58:55  <Beul> lol, I figured, because tried and still failed. :p
11:00:40  <Beul> thus returning to the point that the only solution for multiple bridge typs atm is to modify maglev/monorail to allow other trains to drive on them and replacing the tunnel graphics?
11:01:11  <Beul> tunnel types ofc
11:01:24  <Beul> seems like time for coffee -_-
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11:03:14  <Beul> or will it work if I sulpy all of the *'ed sprites?
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11:05:04  <Beul> Hirundo?
11:05:14  <Hirundo> Beul: Yes, I presume so
11:05:43  <Hirundo> michi_cc: Tunnel portal overlays are used only if rti->UsesOverlay() is true, i.e. if overlays/underlays etc. are provided, however documentation does not mention this. Is this intended?
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11:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: i guess that is backwards compatibility for GRFs that do ActionA replacement
11:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause> something similar is done for level crossings
11:08:08  <John_Snow> hey guys, how to play a single game with mod from luukland's servers? i'm tried to load NewGRF files, but it not works
11:08:31  <John_Snow> mod city build
11:08:31  <andythenorth> John_Snow: iirc, nobody knows
11:08:48  <andythenorth> except luukland, who refuse to release sources
11:08:57  * andythenorth might be wrong
11:09:32  <John_Snow> understand, ty
11:10:52  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: level crossings belong the 'all or none' sprites
11:11:38  <Beul> andythenorth, played there for a long time and have met luukland personally, doubt if even he knows how to. :p I think Xi and Muxy do most, if not all, of the coding
11:13:44  <michi_cc> Hirundo: The tunnel underlay was already only drawn for UsesOverlay(), and the overlay sprites don't make sense without the underlay, which the docs don't mention either (and bridge surface sprites and whetever else as well).
11:14:00  <michi_cc> For the original reason behind that ask peter, not me :)
11:15:48  <Hirundo> Docs mention that you should either supply all of (overlay, underlay, level crossings, bridge surface, tunnel) or none, or "undefined behaviour" occurs
11:16:41  <Beul> but then why is it possible to replace just the tunnel sprites, but not alter them using a callback?
11:17:02  <Hirundo> replacement has nothing to do with rail types
11:17:18  <Beul> true...
11:17:42  <Hirundo> replace = "replace sprites x..y" with these
11:18:16  <Hirundo> callback = "define a new railtype (that may replace an existing one) and use this callback to get the tunnel sprites"
11:18:45  <Hirundo> then OpenTTD says "Well, I can't use your cool new gfx unless you also provide me with overlays, underlays etc."
11:18:54  <Beul> so this basically means that in order to have custom portals for my new rail type I would have to suply overlay, underlay, level crossings, bridge surface, and tunnel sprites?
11:19:19  <michi_cc> So replace "tunnel" with "tunnel underlay only or tunnel underlay and overlay"
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11:20:37  <Beul> michi_cc under/overlay for the tracks in the tunnel mouth or the tunnel portal itself?
11:20:50  <Beul> always getting a bit confused there
11:22:54  <michi_cc> As illustrated in (The grass sprites are provided by OpenTTD, but can be overdrawn by the tunnel sprites).
11:23:02  <Hirundo> I updated nfo / nml documentation
11:24:58  <Beul> tnx Hirundo, makes it much more clear now
11:25:47  <Beul> allthogh I do not have the time to sort out all of those sprites now, so I'll just replace and modify mglv for now :(
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12:00:21  <andythenorth> Alberth: have you written any code for routing?  Or is it just ideas?
12:00:54  <Alberth> just ideas
12:01:07  <andythenorth> me too
12:01:11  <andythenorth> I'm not sure where I'd start
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12:03:50  <Alberth> core is being able to give a direction at a station for some destination X
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12:05:16  <andythenorth> yes
12:06:08  <Alberth> I'd probably start by toying in a simple setup outside openttd
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12:06:40  <Alberth> perhaps interfacing by dumping orders + vehicle capacities from a game
12:07:38  <Alberth> but you need to be able to make new connections and break old ones, and the destinations should get updated
12:08:06  <Alberth> that seems complicated enough to do first in a simple setup for easy experimenting
12:08:27  <andythenorth> 'destinations should get updated' <- the ultimate destination, or next hop?
12:08:59  <Alberth> euhm, sorry "directions" should get updated, not destinations
12:09:09  <andythenorth> :)
12:09:26  <Alberth> oh, and adding and removing destinations is thus another head ache
12:09:39  <andythenorth> I'm ignoring that
12:09:57  <andythenorth> if you have cargo on the network, but no path to destination, it just sits there
12:10:14  <andythenorth> all nodes are weighted 0 or such, so cargo doesn't move :P
12:10:37  <Alberth> that's at least one step further imho
12:10:55  <andythenorth> I've only thought about loading cargo so far, I have no ideas to determine when to unload
12:11:18  <Alberth> you may also want to do a perfect computation so you have a baseline to check against
12:11:24  <andythenorth> interesting
12:11:37  <andythenorth> vehicle arrives at station A, with 30t coal, should it unload at A?
12:11:58  <andythenorth> or should it remain loaded because next station (B) is better
12:12:08  <Alberth> cargo handling is also a next step probably
12:12:31  <andythenorth> I guess YACD and CD both solved this already
12:13:16  <Alberth> I think the answer is simply (if the direction points to B, keep it loaded, else unload)
12:13:25  <andythenorth> sounds good
12:14:19  <Alberth> you can of course also do the cargo first if you do a perfect direction computation, and take that as direction
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12:15:03  <Alberth> but I think it's a solved problem
12:15:20  <Alberth> at least mostly solved
12:16:30  <Alberth> if you want to play, make a setup in python code
12:16:40  <Alberth> with vehicle capacities and orders
12:18:10  <Alberth> if you assume vehicle == aircraft, you can even easily generate a 'game'
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12:56:36  <Beul> so here goes: my first ever grf file:
12:57:13  <Beul> tnx michi_cc, Hirundo, planetmaker and all others for your help
12:58:31  <planetmaker> you're welcome :-)
12:59:46  <planetmaker> hm, Beul, do you think that the fence on the non-cliff side is needed?
13:00:15  <planetmaker> I know no road set where there's fence between foot path and road
13:03:10  <Beul> i haven't made the grapics, they are from Quast65
13:03:26  <Beul> i don't think they are needed eather
13:03:39  <Beul> actually redrawing it as we speak :p
13:03:43  <planetmaker> :-)
13:04:05  <planetmaker> I just checked... unfortunately we can't check the town zone, I think. Would be cool
13:04:40  <Beul> but first wanted to figure out the code, have some programing background but not a whole lot of experience
13:05:59  <Beul> This could possbly look quite well in industrial areas as well especially with some other graphics on top
13:06:02  <planetmaker> NewGRFs have imho a rewarding learning curve :-) You can start small but as experience grows can make bigger and more complex stuff :-)
13:06:39  <Beul> certainly
13:07:31  * planetmaker --> out, enjoying the weather
13:08:31  * andythenorth --> in, converting FISH to nml
13:08:36  <andythenorth> but mostly holding babies
13:12:14  <Beul> babies as in plural?
13:12:52  <andythenorth> mostly one
13:12:59  <andythenorth> occasionally two
13:13:53  <Beul> can be quite handfull I gues. My cousin has two, 12 moths apart :p
13:17:56  * andythenorth ponders allowing FISH cargo ships to refit to PAX
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13:24:06  <FLHerne> Why?
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13:24:56  <Alberth> mass pax transport :p
13:25:16  <Alberth> but indeed, it does not sound very useful as you already have ferries
13:26:55  <Alberth> hmm, andy may have gotten weird ideas from eddi delivering other cargoes instead of transporting nothing :p
13:27:13  <Alberth> eg to an oilrig ;)
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13:46:08  <andythenorth> mass pax transport :P
13:46:26  <andythenorth> or auto-refit to backload small amounts of pax :P
13:46:43  * andythenorth wants a game with YACD and auto-refit :(
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13:48:50  <FLHerne> What's wrong with CDist and Autorefit :P
13:49:06  <andythenorth> I've never played CDist
13:49:17  <andythenorth> doesn't appeal to me
13:49:23  <andythenorth> is it fun?
13:49:35  <FLHerne> Of course :D
13:49:49  <FLHerne> I have 6-cargo mineral trains now :-)
13:50:51  <FLHerne> And one set of trains that carry everything from Wood to Building Supplies to Metal while going round the network :P
13:51:59  <FLHerne> Autorefit is awesome. CDist is also awesome. Both together is probably awesome^2
13:52:20  <andythenorth> but you have to choose what to route where?
13:53:23  <FLHerne> You run services and then the cargo travels to wherever your services go.
13:53:31  <Alberth> cdist creates load for your connections
13:53:42  <FLHerne> Add another service, some cargo goes along that too
13:54:00  <andythenorth> how does it balance links?
13:54:06  <Alberth> ie cargo magically goes to places you connect to :)
13:54:08  <andythenorth> if I have coal A->B and A->C
13:54:17  <andythenorth> how does it ensure that both my routes are profitable?
13:55:03  <Alberth> it probably doesn't, you may have to remove one if it is not profitable
13:55:19  <andythenorth> so if I have A->B and A->C in profit, then add A->D
13:55:28  <FLHerne> Some coal will go A -> B and some will go A->C. Proportion depends on various factors, run enough services to suit demand
13:55:56  <andythenorth> so adding A->D will require the first two routes to be reworked
13:55:57  <andythenorth> ?
13:56:05  * Alberth thinks so
13:56:14  <FLHerne> A bit, possibly.
13:56:40  <andythenorth> so on a highly connected network, each new connection will affect lots of other connections
13:56:45  <FLHerne> If D was near C, you could add a C -> D service instead
13:57:10  <FLHerne> if you have that many connections, the effect of adding another will be minimal :D
13:57:17  <andythenorth> sure
13:57:21  <Alberth> andythenorth: just like normal openttd :)
13:57:51  <andythenorth> so the benefit is...what?  No need for transfer orders?
13:58:09  <Alberth> some cargo needs more than one hop to get transported
13:58:15  <FLHerne> If I have 20 mines and 5 accepting industries, and each mine is supplying a bit to all industries, there's not much effect from another connection or two :P
13:58:40  <andythenorth> I should just play cdist I guess
13:59:30  <Alberth> best way to find out how it works :)
13:59:54  <Alberth> don't know if it understands auto-refit though
14:00:13  <FLHerne> It does-ish
14:01:46  <FLHerne> Needs to have one run with cargo x already available/refitted to before it'll autorefit stock
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14:12:40  <cmircea> Hey guys. I'm starting a role-play game with a massive rail network ( ), but need some help with connecting these two parts of the mainline:
14:12:41  <cmircea> I am not sure what junction to use; I don't think it would be good to use all four tracks for connection, I would pick only the outer two, but that junction would need to handle a good  amonut of traffic and also look stylish ;)
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14:28:59  <Alberth> why don't you experiment? imho that's a large part of the fun
14:29:22  <Alberth> btw I have no clue what to do, my games are not that massive
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14:37:06  <Alberth> cmircea: the recommended way to post pics is to add them to the forum, as they tend to stay longer available than from a 3rd-party site
14:38:50  <cmircea> Alberth, can't, I want to get the tracks first then start the network ;)
14:39:05  <cmircea> Alberth, I added some make-shift junctions at each end though, that should do for a while.
14:39:21  <michi_cc> cmircea: Junction:
14:39:41  <michi_cc> IMNSHO such a junction looks worlds better than anything seen on our wiki.
14:39:57  <michi_cc> If is of course fully organically grown and in no way at all pre-planned.
14:39:57  <cmircea> michi_cc, man, I'd kill for those bridges, if they would support custom tracks. It looks out of place when the end are standard, yet the middle is sometimes custom.
14:40:49  <cmircea> michi_cc, Alberth, check the thread for the new post with what I made. Should do for now, though 2 tracks only.
14:42:45  <Alberth> crappy site, making it a jpeg, and reducing its size :(
14:45:14  <cmircea> yeah well :|
14:45:23  <cmircea> also, PBS signals baffle me, especially the one-way ones
14:45:58  <cmircea> I did try to use two-way ones, but trains would end up getting stuck. I alternated direction every block, just like in real life, with junctions to allow switching between lanes.
14:46:34  <FLHerne> How? They're probably the least baffling signal type... :o
14:47:03  <cmircea> FLHerne, well the trains would end up stuck at blocks if I let them travel in both directions on both tracks.
14:47:04  * FLHerne is always baffled by pre/combo/exit ones, and 2-way block signals
14:47:22  <cmircea> should I use one-way path everywhere?
14:47:39  <FLHerne> Depends, probably :P
14:47:40  <cmircea> or use regular and put one way only at the ends to make sure trains take only one track?
14:47:51  <cmircea> *regular as in regular two-way path, without the little plate
14:47:52  <Prof_Frink> Confused by 2-way block signals? When I were a lad, that's all there was.
14:48:03  <cmircea> Prof_Frink, haha, good old times.
14:48:23  <FLHerne> Prof_Frink: What are thy for then? :D
14:48:48  <cmircea> Does THIS make sense to you?
14:48:49  <cmircea>
14:49:05  <cmircea> yes, the lanes alternate direction, that's to keep it simple, doesn't matter.
14:49:09  <michi_cc> cmircea: It is not efficient to allow lane switching every block (and real life doesn't have switches after each signal either), regardless of which kind of signals you use.
14:49:19  <cmircea> I mean the signals. Station has two way path, the tracks have one way path.
14:49:22  <Prof_Frink> FLHerne: Making passing loops when 1-way signals are unavailable.
14:50:08  <cmircea> Is that a sane signalling?
14:50:20  <FLHerne> cmircea: looks sensible from here
14:50:38  <cmircea> alright, are all  those 1-way needed? or can I use regular and one-way only at the entrances?
14:51:18  <cmircea> (if it makes sense anyway)
14:51:18  <FLHerne> I can't see what difference it would make
14:51:26  <FLHerne> But why bother?
14:51:31  <cmircea> no plates everywhere xD
14:51:54  <michi_cc> In theory you could even use regular signals for all. Three regular signals backwards in a row have a high enough pathfinder penalty that it is unlikely a train will take such a route anyway.
14:52:47  <cmircea> Yeah and they're have no path to cross on the mainline, aside from one directional track to the other
14:52:53  <michi_cc> Use plain non-path signals for the regular track then, path signals don't have any direct advantage if there's no junction around.
14:52:59  <cmircea> that'd be 20-40 reverse signals to the next destination xD
14:53:15  <cmircea> nah I'll use path everywhere, easier than switching between plain and path
14:53:26  <FLHerne> cmircea: I see. Sometimes I use 1-way block signals in those places for the same reason :P
14:53:39  <cmircea> I guess I'll add one-way if I see any issues.
14:53:43  <FLHerne> Aargh, got ninja'd :-(
14:54:30  <michi_cc> One of the more nifty things you can do with two-way signals is
14:54:52  <michi_cc> In that case you do need the all path signals though, to keep the penalties on all paths consistent.
14:55:41  <cmircea> michi_cc, at that point it's easier to jsut do two tracks per path.
14:55:48  <michi_cc> (Adpated from . Enable infrastructure maintenance if you don't see a point :)
14:56:02  <cmircea> Check my game thread, I have a double track/direction mainline.
14:57:50  <cmircea> Would love to hear your ideas for the game. I am using UKRS and av8 (1925-30 will start, so no planes early on).
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15:00:09  <FLHerne> UKRS original?
15:01:52  <cmircea> v3
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15:02:33  <FLHerne> UKRS2 is shinier, IMO :P
15:02:59  <cmircea> meh
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15:51:26  <cmircea> Gosh, laying tracks through mountains ain't easy even in TTD. I don't think I'll have trains at start that can pass even these:
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16:05:50  * andythenorth contemplates doing the right thing
16:07:41  * andythenorth does it
16:07:48  <FLHerne> What is it? :P
16:08:10  <andythenorth> being helpful to people asking questions
16:08:25  <andythenorth> without patronising them
16:08:30  <FLHerne> :D
16:08:40  <andythenorth> everyone sees the same forum, but not in the same context
16:08:46  * FLHerne thinks of questions to ask :P
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16:11:07  <FLHerne> Does Sailing Ships not count as a 'decent' ship set for Victorian era?
16:12:40  <andythenorth> no
16:13:18  <FLHerne> Why?
16:13:33  <FLHerne> Other than bridges, it seems to work...
16:15:45  <andythenorth> needs better sprites
16:16:16  <FLHerne> The recent versions don't look so bad - they have non-totally-white sails now :D
16:17:08  <andythenorth> lighting is omni-directional though
16:17:19  <andythenorth> to be fair to it - work in progress
16:18:38  * FLHerne waits for earlier FISH :P
16:20:00  <andythenorth> I like that Sailing Ships drops sails during breakdowns :)
16:22:56  * FLHerne turned those off, so didn't notice :-(
16:24:52  <FLHerne> Are there any sets offering mid-20th century ferries?
16:25:11  <FLHerne> FISH ones are quite modern, and sailing ones are too old...
16:26:08  <andythenorth> new ships
16:26:21  <andythenorth> not on bananas
16:26:43  <FLHerne> Is that an MB one?
16:27:09  <cmircea> Hey guys, can you comment on my network?
16:28:02  <FLHerne> Looks too 'designed' for my tastes. Efficient, perhaps :P
16:28:42  <FLHerne> And why not use forum image-hosting? The quality on that site you're using is dreadful :-(
16:31:36  <cmircea> Too many pics for the forums unfortunately.
16:31:48  <cmircea> I always design my network... well not to this degree though xD
16:36:35  <Alberth> what's the point of posting if nobody can see what you're doing?
16:37:36  <Alberth> (inlcuding you, after some time)
16:38:02  <cmircea> imgur isn't going to go away anytime soon
16:38:10  <oskari89> @seen DanMacK
16:38:10  <DorpsGek> oskari89: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, 5 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <DanMacK> WB Andy
16:38:35  <Alberth> but you cannot see any detail
16:38:49  <Alberth> eg signals at junctions
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16:49:58  <cmircea> Alberth, crap, I didn't check the pictures :<
16:50:50  <FLHerne> They're nicely fuzzed :P
16:51:32  <Rubidium> it's also so slow, that I couldn't be bothered to look at them
16:52:12  <cmircea> I'll try to take them again and replace them.
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16:57:24  <cmircea> Rubidium, the forum only allows me 3 attachments for post though.
16:57:42  <Rubidium> so?
16:58:08  <Rubidium> the forum also allows double/triple/quadruple/... posts if you need to place more than 3 attachments
16:58:21  <cmircea> I have 8 in the first post. Can't exactly split the first, as I have other posts after it
16:58:36  <cmircea> Unless... I edit all of them.
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17:05:26  <cmircea> Rubidium, better now?
17:06:33  <Rubidium> oui
17:07:12  <FLHerne> Less fuzzy, anyway :-)
17:07:39  <FLHerne> Looking at , is there something up with your trackset?
17:08:30  <cmircea> Though now I've got AI all over the place, as I don't have some saves xD
17:08:44  <cmircea> Rubidium, any way to nuke a company completely?
17:09:04  <Rubidium> just stop the AIs?
17:09:14  <Rubidium> load the save in MP and kill them there
17:09:28  <cmircea> Rubidium, I need the tracks and everything removed
17:09:30  <Rubidium> neither would remove their roads though
17:10:15  <Rubidium> it removes all other company owned stuff (except road and canals)
17:10:43  <FLHerne> There's a console command to stop AIs, isn't there?
17:10:48  <Alberth> can't you type 'stop_ai <number>' ?
17:11:06  <Alberth> but you'll keep the shared infra structure
17:11:25  <Alberth> first set the #competitors to 0 :p
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17:12:39  <cmircea> I want to remove their rail tracks and vehicles and so on
17:13:12  <andythenorth> can you buy them?
17:13:27  <cmircea> stop_ai works well enough.
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17:24:09  <cmircea> Rubidium, Alberth, FLHerne, done. Whew. All PNGs, on the forums.
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17:34:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24363 /trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt:
17:34:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:34:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 2 changes by nglekhoi
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17:36:42  <TomyLobo> hi
17:37:26  <TomyLobo> it's 1992 and i can't build passenger trains
17:37:39  <TomyLobo> is that a bug or a joke?
17:37:50  <Alberth> neither probably
17:38:05  <TomyLobo> what is it, then?
17:38:20  <Alberth> what vehicles do you still see in the list of purchasing?
17:38:37  <TomyLobo> most, if not all, except passenger and mail
17:38:51  <TomyLobo> electric rail, btw
17:39:14  <TomyLobo> and of course i see all the engines i'd expect
17:39:15  <Alberth> hmm, too early for monorail thus
17:39:42  <Alberth> what happens if you select passengers as cargo type?
17:39:54  <TomyLobo> i only see trains with cargo capacity
17:39:55  <Alberth> I once looked for a coal wagon that changed colour
17:40:07  <TomyLobo> err, engines
17:40:13  <TomyLobo> morel, dash, sh 125
17:40:57  <TomyLobo> 1.2.1 btw
17:41:11  <Alberth> and default set I assume
17:41:15  <TomyLobo> oh hey, you're at the top of the credits :)
17:41:32  <Alberth> My name starts with an "A" :)
17:41:52  <TomyLobo> i only have the 8/32bpp trains 2cc newgrf
17:41:52  <Alberth> I did not do most , not by a long shot
17:42:24  <Alberth> oh, not the default vehicles thus
17:42:39  <TomyLobo> it doesnt say it replaces wagons though
17:42:55  <TomyLobo> but they look highres
17:43:04  <Alberth> usually, they just change / disappear and you get new / other ones
17:43:19  <Alberth> possibly in a different rail type
17:43:30  <TomyLobo> yeah, so what do i do until that's the case?
17:43:32  <Alberth> hmm, can you select a newer rail type?
17:43:37  <TomyLobo> nope
17:44:04  <Alberth> I never played 2cc, so no idea how it should behave :(
17:44:33  <TomyLobo> 2cc is something special?
17:44:33  <Alberth> I doubt however that a disappearing cargo type is designed to happen :)
17:44:56  <Alberth> TomyLobo: i only have the 8/32bpp trains 2cc newgrf  <- that 2cc
17:45:38  <glx> changed newgrf ingame ?
17:46:14  <TomyLobo> nope
17:46:31  <TomyLobo> i actually didnt realize i hadthat thing on until Alberth asked
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17:47:33  <Beul> Hirundo? I have another question about those "all or none" sprites, do you need to physicaly suply them or is there a way to reference the opengfx base sprites for sprites that i do not suply?
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17:48:01  <Matulla> Hi do i need the ship to lift 1 tile up at the river entry or does it take that tile on its own ?
17:48:22  <Alberth> Matulla: nope, you need a lock which is 3 tiles
17:48:45  <Matulla> thanks
17:48:49  <Hirundo> Beul: You need to "physically" supply them
17:48:57  <Alberth> TomyLobo: I am out of ideas, perhaps you should post a question at the forum
17:49:20  <FLHerne> With a screenshot and savegame, ideally...
17:49:34  <TomyLobo> well all they'll probably tell me is that the newgrf is bugged
17:49:40  <TomyLobo> i'd really like to continue this save
17:49:52  <FLHerne> I have that one, it works fine for me... :-(
17:51:29  <Alberth> Matulla:   the bottom image has a lock at the right
17:51:48  <Alberth> it is not a good explanation, unfortunately
17:52:29  <Beul> Hirundo: guess that would mean I could copy the aproproate sprites from opengfx, define a spriteset and add a callback entry for them?
17:54:27  <Hirundo> Beul: Yes, assuming that you comply with the licensing requirements (GPL)
17:55:08  <Hirundo> Also, you might need to do a bit of cutting and pasting, because railtype sprites are composed differently
17:57:09  <Beul> yes, ofc it will be GPL, and yeah realised *some* cutting and pasting would be involved (:
17:57:09  <Alberth> cmircea: do those depots work?  They look quite far away for finding automagically
17:59:33  <Beul> after al this time I am still in love with those path signals. If you set them up rigt they handle junctions and complicated station setups lik real magic :D
18:00:11  <cmircea> Alberth, yep they do. YAPF doesn't have an issue.
18:00:29  <Matulla> Alberth:  is there a size for the harbour or only one tile needed
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18:00:54  <Alberth> Matulla: 1 tile coast and 1 tile water
18:01:08  <Alberth> (and 1 tile water for the ships :) )
18:01:13  <Matulla> no the  tiles around
18:01:18  <Matulla> the channelwide
18:01:38  <Matulla> no more needet to tur n
18:01:38  <Alberth> oh, 1 tile channel is sufficient
18:01:49  <Matulla> in both direction
18:01:55  <Alberth> ships have no size
18:02:01  <Matulla> or will they cross over
18:02:05  <Alberth> and they cannot collide
18:02:11  <Matulla> ok
18:02:37  <Matulla> have a nice wekend where ever youare on the blue Planet
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18:04:03  <Beul> I've once had 10 ships that appearead like 1 for an entire game as there was so much cargo at the pickup dochs that tey loaded, moved and unloaded exaxly simultaneously.
18:04:24  <Beul> It was like having one giant-capacity ship
18:04:59  <FLHerne> That can be very irritating :-(
18:05:12  <andythenorth> ships scale to infinite capacity per tile
18:05:14  <andythenorth> which is nice
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18:08:29  <Zuu> infinite capacity and full load doesn't mix well
18:08:29  <Beul> I don't mind the fact that they can pass throug each oter. rivers and channels would have to be verry large in order to avoid that. What bugs me more is when i bild a nice 2 or 3 tile wide chanel and they all prefer the sam tile :p
18:08:57  <FLHerne> There's a patch for that, isn't there?
18:09:06  <Zuu> I remember that patch too
18:11:35  <Beul> I don't use a lot of patches because I play mostly with cargodist and my skills of compiling different patches are almost non-existant. It get's even worse if both modify the path finder and that kind of stuff
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18:12:34  <Beul> It does not bug me enough to be bothered with patching
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18:14:15  <andythenorth> needs something like 'ships prefer to go left'
18:14:23  * andythenorth looks up law of the sea
18:15:45  <Zuu> I though it was right. But I don't own a boat or tend to go with someones boat.
18:15:56  <andythenorth>
18:15:58  <Zuu>  s/was/is/
18:16:42  <andythenorth> forcing ships to hug the bank in canals and rivers might be plausible
18:16:47  <andythenorth> although....rivers :(
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18:31:25  <Beul> andythenorth: Though it might look good in chanals it wil look ridiculous in large harbor areas
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18:35:41  <Rubidium> andythenorth: obviously boats should obey the road side setting! ;)
18:36:19  <Beul> has anybody got (a link to) overlay sprites for normal tracks? (GPL ofc)
18:36:43  <Beul> actually I only need the 4 slopes
18:37:09  <Rubidium>
18:37:32  <andythenorth> ho
18:37:48  <andythenorth> ships should hug coast, except when next order is a bouy
18:37:55  <andythenorth> that will be fun to explain :)
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18:46:24  <Mister_Argent> i wish there was a game that combined SimCity with OpenTTD, that'd be the ultimate sim
18:46:45  <Mister_Argent> ulator
18:46:46  <Warod> Still waiting for SimIRL to emerge.
18:46:58  <Mister_Argent> you mean, Dwarf Fortress 2: The Revenge of Billy?
18:53:51  <Alberth> Beul: repository of the opengfx project?
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18:57:49  * andythenorth votes original warcraft with openttd
18:57:54  <andythenorth> plus a lemmings / worms option
18:58:07  <andythenorth> 'my liege'
18:58:09  <Rubidium> ohh... lemmings ;)
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19:03:53  <andythenorth> I know war is out, but maybe it should be back in...
19:04:33  <andythenorth> OpenMilitaryLogisticsTycoonDeluxe
19:04:54  <andythenorth> let's face it, it would be more fun
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20:11:20  <Beul> good evening
20:14:06  <Beul> Are there any underlay tiles drawn for normal rail?
20:14:42  <Beul> and yes, I have googled it, and no, there are no underlay sprites in open gfx with balast and without terrrain
20:19:56  <Supercheese> I think nutracks has underlays, dunno about other rails
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20:30:10  <Beul> yeah nutracks has them, and so has the dutch rail set for a few of their tracks. I am looking for the normal ones though as I have to supply them in order to have other custom sprites like tunnel entrances. I want the new rail type to match the normal rail from opengfx. It seems is does not yet exist. I will modify the opengfx ground sprites to only contain the underlay and not the terrain.
20:34:28  <Beul> I could of course use the sprites that include terrain, but then the resulting grf would not be climate compatible
20:35:14  <Supercheese> Working on that road-covered tunnel grf?
20:35:38  <Supercheese> or was that someone else?
20:36:05  <Zuu> Not only climate problems, but also that with ground tiles, you have to pick the ground tiles of one of the two base sets.
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20:40:15  <Beul> yes I am Supercheese, but I decided to make it a truly new rail type first
20:41:03  <Beul> and that means providing more than 50 sprites for under, overlay, crossings and so on, about half of is does not exist as seperate sprites yet
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20:47:23  <rbeef> hello
20:47:39  <rbeef> did anyone tried playing OpenTTD in OpenBSD?
20:47:51  <rbeef> I get a black screen when running OpenTTD from ports
20:48:15  <rbeef> no errors in the console, just a black screen
20:52:11  <Beul> I had to google is to see what kind of OS that was, so no idea, pretty familiar with blue screens though!
20:52:59  <rbeef> blue screens are for Windows, we're having black screens, looks more professional
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21:16:51  <andythenorth> oh how droll
21:17:00  * andythenorth caused an assert
21:18:38  <andythenorth> adding two newgrfs with same ID _might_ have been the cause
21:18:51  <andythenorth> or changing grfid whilst game was running :P
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21:48:07  <Beul> andythenorth, removing a newgrf that ads a new rail type causes some interesting behavour but not even that managed to crash the game:p
21:48:56  <andythenorth> I am pretty good at causing asserts
21:48:59  * FLHerne_ found that removing one industry set and then adding another broke things :P
21:56:24  <andythenorth> bye
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21:57:50  <Beul> sloped sprites are a real pain in the rear...
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22:43:09  <Wolf01> 'night all
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