Log for #openttd on 13th August 2012:
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00:15:48  <drush> goddamnit unicode enable doesn't work
00:18:04  <drush> oh mercy
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00:24:29  <drush> ladies, gentlemen, and others,
00:24:42  <drush> if anyone has got anything to say about this, please tell me in pm
00:25:06  <drush> because I'm going to bed now and posts from now may not appear in my scrollback
00:25:12  <drush> thank you and goodnight
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01:40:47  <V453000> does anyone have an idea what is "full power only under 25kV" supposed to mean in dutch train set?
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02:22:06  <Pinkbeast> V453: different electriciation schemes?
02:22:33  <V453000> but of what
02:22:46  <V453000> there is only one el rail
02:23:00  <V453000> or is it related to the engines anyhow?
02:32:38  <Pinkbeast> There's multiple electrification schemes in some track newgrfs: or it could be an electric with a small diesel engine - there's one in UKRS2
02:33:08  <V453000> I assume that is to come with dutch trackset
02:33:10  <michi_cc> V453000: You're supposed to use the dutch track set as well.
02:33:37  <V453000> why isnt it in the train set if it is required ..
02:33:47  <V453000> if you basically cant use the train set alone
02:34:32  <V453000> but thanks :)
02:35:19  <michi_cc> If they coded it sanely, plain elrail will count for maximum power.
02:35:46  <V453000> it doesnt :z
02:36:13  <V453000> in a game without d. track set trains have reduced power ... the 25kV trains that is
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06:32:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I had the idea that industry grfs might also ship a metadata file
06:32:33  <andythenorth> config file format or such, providing each industry's labour requirement, type of industry etc
06:32:44  <andythenorth> *not* in the grf, by design
06:33:16  <andythenorth> GS would be able to use it.  GS authors would also be able to substitute a modified metadata file
06:33:59  <andythenorth> might be a stinky idea, don't know.  But I think some kind of indirection is needed to do anything interesting.
06:38:40  <telanus> morrrrrning
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06:56:18  <Phazorx> morning
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07:45:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what would a meta-file achieve that a newgrf property can't?
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07:50:26  <NGC3982> Morning, people and aliens.
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08:20:06  <TrueBrain> how did you know I was an alien?
08:20:14  <TrueBrain> that is suppose to be a secret dammit
08:21:57  * NGC3982 actually refered to PM but thanks for the new information.
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08:27:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: GS author / scenario author can't modify the newgrf to suit their purposes
08:28:14  <andythenorth> doesn't require maintaining the newgrf tools to understand new props?
08:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible idea
08:28:43  <andythenorth> :)
08:31:32  <__ln__> good morning all and the swedes
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08:34:32  <dihedral> hello
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10:01:49  <Terkhen> good morning
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10:11:39  <telanus1> morning
10:16:14  <Terkhen> hi peter1138 and telanus1
10:16:25  <peter1138> Hi Hi
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10:31:37  <__ln__>
10:38:08  <Eddi|zuHause> ooold!
10:47:35  <szaman> let me guess, he doesn't have facebook account? :]
10:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have a facebook account...
10:50:59  <szaman> aren't you afraid?
10:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid of facebook
10:53:04  <szaman> and you're not afraid of CIA?
10:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm more afraid of facebook than of CIA
10:54:14  <Markk> Same here.
10:54:24  <szaman> well, me too :]
10:54:28  <Markk> Because we don't live in the US and A.
10:54:41  <szaman> we're all americans today
10:54:46  <Markk> :)
10:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, the CIA can't get active within the USA, only outside
10:55:13  <Markk> oh
10:55:15  <Markk> That's true.
10:55:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what they have FBI and NSA for
10:55:34  <Markk> And they collect a huge amount of data about us anyway, don't they?
10:55:35  <szaman> facebook is active worldwide, so CIA
10:55:54  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly, through NSA.
10:57:09  <drush> omg facebook
10:57:33  <drush> I already have enough automated telemarketers calling me during work hours
10:57:55  <drush> I don't need Turdenberg to sell my dox to anyone more
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11:01:22  <drac_boy> hi
11:01:42  <drush> hi
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11:10:19  <drac_boy> how're you drush?
11:10:42  <drush> pretty good, advancing the build, but not there yet
11:11:08  <drush> you?
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11:13:38  <drac_boy> heh
11:13:39  <drac_boy> doing ok
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11:20:20  <drac_boy> thinking about maybe working a bit on the grf this week but will have to see
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11:57:16  <NGC3982> What kind of country still allows automated telemarketing?
12:01:18  <__ln__> in what way automated?
12:01:43  <szaman> in poland sometimes phone rings, you answer, and then you wait for caller, i don't know anyone who waited enough to hear the caller :P
12:07:16  <peter1138> Got to love IO wait. Got an 8 core 8GB machine crawling due to an rsync...
12:09:43  <szaman> IO to/from disk?
12:09:52  <szaman> or net
12:09:57  <peter1138> IO to disk.
12:10:12  <peter1138> Network doesn't block other stuff.
12:10:49  <szaman> there must be something wrong with the driver
12:11:34  <szaman> or, you use 2.x linux kernel :]
12:12:03  <peter1138> No, it's just slow disks.
12:12:17  <Warod> why do you use slow disks!? ;P
12:12:29  <szaman> maybe this is rsync to tapes :]
12:12:30  <peter1138> While having a huge block of data to write, it'll be slower loading data off it, of course.
12:14:11  <peter1138> Warod, because they're 2TB drives, and, if they exist, 15k SAS versions of those will be $lots.
12:15:02  <Warod> Well, if you're using slow drives on purpose, I see no point complaining about it. ;)
12:15:18  <NGC3982> __ln__: I don't know, but i guess drush refered to autodialer systems.
12:15:50  <peter1138> I'm not :-)
12:15:52  <Warod> I suffer from small HDD space on my laptop on purpose.. Because I can live with 120 GB of HDD on my laptop. But NOT with waiting stuff to happen all the time.
12:15:54  <peter1138> Just idly mentioning.
12:16:00  <szaman> Warod: it wasn't complaining, it was expresing love :]
12:16:11  <peter1138> FWIW, the machine is overspecced CPU & RAM wise as that's what I had available...
12:16:32  <Warod> ^^
12:16:43  <peter1138> Warod, then you want SSD?
12:16:49  <Warod> I have an SSD. :)
12:17:00  <peter1138> :-)
12:17:03  <Warod> Windows VM boots in like... 10 seconds. :>
12:17:21  <peter1138> And yeah, I know having the OS on the 2TB drives as well as the data is a bit silly, but, hey, there are only 2 drive slots.
12:17:41  <peter1138> Normally you'd have a couple of small fast drives for the OS and delegate the rest to a SAN.
12:18:15  <Warod> If this MBP was my own, I'd throw out the optical drive and put second HDD in.
12:18:29  <peter1138> heh
12:18:38  <Warod> But that'd ruin the warranty, so...
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13:32:30  <Belugas> hello
13:32:46  <telanus> hi
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15:13:30  <agaran> hello, i patched 1.2.1 with acs patch (with some effort it applied), but now it complains that savefiles are broken, how i can figure why as patch itself didnt added anything to savefiles at least not from looking into sources unless settings.ini changes change savefiles
15:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes they do
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15:14:27  <agaran> s/acs/atc/ one letting second train to slowdown to speed of first train to eliminate bad looking start/stop sequence when faster train follow slow one
15:14:34  <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: is that possible to fix it somehow?
15:15:22  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make it load your old savegames, but savegames you make with this version will (probably) never work in a newer version with or without the patch
15:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> to do that, you have to increase SAVEGAME_VERSION (in saveload.cpp or so) and put that new version in the "from" field of the added setting
15:16:25  <agaran> i see, blah, so in order to get anything useable in future i need to get patch put to release somehow or forget
15:18:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it is theoretically possible to make this more flexible, so with some work you can update the version without losing your savegames, but this is way more complicated
15:18:36  <agaran> so any patch that causes changes in settings.ini ruins this?
15:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:19:24  <agaran> so whole point of patching goes /dev/null for me then, unless local copy for toying moment or two.. bad
15:20:06  <agaran> anyway that train slow to speed of previous one works fine on release (plus/minus patch aplying by hand when necesary)
15:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, the whole setting system is only prepared for linear development
15:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not optimal,  but it's what we got
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15:21:38  <agaran> sure i understand
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15:22:17  <agaran> just hoped there is workaround for that
15:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why my level crossing patch has no setting change intentionally
15:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> even though it could use one
15:24:05  <agaran> i see, so forcing it always-on fixes problem by eliminating settings?
15:24:17  <agaran> setting is used to enable/disable this feature
15:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:25:05  <agaran> ok, thats way to go then for me :-)
15:25:06  <agaran> thanks
15:25:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also make the setting "not stored in savegames"
15:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it'S one of the flags
15:25:31  <Eddi|zuHause> then it's in the config file only
15:25:44  <agaran> hmm, that plus making it on by config file is fine as well
15:26:14  * Rubidium hopes agaran doesn't use public multiplayer servers with that build
15:26:30  <agaran> Rubidium: how i can append something to version to get mismatch?
15:26:56  <agaran> hmm, right, i need 2 compilations with different directory names/binary names
15:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it does that automatically for trunk checkouts, but i don't know for releases
15:27:33  <Rubidium> it'll probably work for a proper tag checkout
15:27:56  <agaran> ised tarball since i had it locally, easier to modify .spec and add %patch10 -p1 ...
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15:38:33  <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE :-)
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15:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> agaran: there's also a "in network save only" flag, that may be a little safer :)
15:44:13  <agaran> i dont play over network yet, wanted to try some patches i like, mostly because i wanted to find way to sort trains by reachable speed, but seems there is no patch for that
15:44:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a very ancient speed signs patch
15:44:43  <agaran> and using tracks and signals you can sort by length, but not speed to my knowledge, unless one make ff from logic train and speed detector etc
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15:45:16  <agaran> i rather wanted to direct fast trains (ie empty not necesarly short) to one way of 2x2 lane, and rest to second
15:47:17  <agaran> another one patch i just tested is signals on bridge heads/tunel heads
15:48:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the one that doesn't work with path signals and thus is totally useless (for me)?
15:48:34  <agaran> yes, it dont work, and yes, i use patch signals, but it at least is move in good direction isn't?
15:48:43  <agaran> is there any other one?
15:48:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but that one definitely changes savegames...
15:48:58  <agaran> no it doesnt :)
15:49:13  <agaran> well, its settings doesnt
15:49:31  <agaran> i just wanted to try them with my saves, not to save with them then load back in not patched
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15:59:45  <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: found solution (few years old) to my problem, route markers..
16:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i did say ancient :p
16:01:35  <agaran> well, but at least from description it looks like what i want, i can toy with making cpu from trains, but not when i want trains not cpu.. i can solder cpu from ttl chips on my workbench instead, or write one in verilog..
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16:15:31  <Wolf01> hello o/
16:16:12  <agaran> hmm if in forum thread is more updated version of patch than attached in flyspray?
16:16:35  <agaran> FS#2258 for example
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16:21:02  <Eddi|zuHause> agaran: do you trust that someone who updated the patch?
16:21:05  <andythenorth> Goedendag
16:21:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you moved southwards?
16:21:30  <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: well no idea
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16:29:29  <keyy> hello
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16:29:44  <keyy> im trying to make my dedicated server
16:30:14  <keyy> and im wondering how to make goals and scripts for !cv !goal etc...
16:30:31  <keyy> can anyone give me some clues?
16:36:46  <Eddi|zuHause> those scripts are an external program that listens to the chat
16:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> search for "autopilot"
16:37:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (does not include goals)
16:37:29  <__ln__> keyy: yes, free clue: please use apostrophes.
16:38:32  <keyy> thank you, im going to look for autopilot, and about goals what should i look 4?
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16:51:01  <TrueBrain> this is not texting .. you can type 'for' .. it are not that many letters ;)
16:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> "it are" doesn't really work either :)
16:52:49  <TrueBrain> that is merely a Dutch person wanting to type english; so stfu :P
16:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just strategically unwise to make mistakes while correcting others :)
16:55:50  <keyy> funny someone using "stfu" is against me using 4 :)
16:55:54  <TrueBrain> well, mister smartypants, if you bothered to read what I complained about, you would know it is not about the correct spelling and usage of english ;)
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16:56:52  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: see it as purposely showing the spelling is not important; the lazyness is ;) (hehe, I wonder if I can talk myself out of it .. :P)
16:57:20  <keyy> not sure about that m8 :P
16:57:26  <TrueBrain> keyy: seriously, last warning
16:57:37  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: wtf r u tlkng 8bout, do u e4n no english?
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16:57:56  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you do understand I now have to kick you, else I am considered 'unfair' and 'biased', right?
16:58:03  <andythenorth> hah
16:58:07  * andythenorth needs a shower anyway
16:58:10  <TrueBrain> :D
16:58:16  <andythenorth> kick me, I have stuff to do :P
16:58:23  <andythenorth> you'll be helping me out ;)
16:58:25  <TheDude> hello
16:58:27  <TrueBrain> @kick andythenorth have a nice shower :D
16:58:27  *** andythenorth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [have a nice shower :D]
16:59:31  <keyy> sorry i was wrong it is not openttd channel, it is english learning channel
17:00:08  <TrueBrain> no, this is IRC, not a texting service where everything has to fit in 160 chars; but take it how ever you like, I don't really care :)
17:00:47  <keyy> so explain me what is the difference between using "4" and "stfu"?
17:02:00  <KenjiE20> stfu is an acronym, 4 is a numbe
17:02:02  <KenjiE20> number*
17:02:44  <keyy> i used "4" not as a number
17:02:58  <keyy> so i dont take your answer :)
17:03:28  <keyy> it is like saying "stfu" is four letters
17:09:31  <TrueBrain> @reload XMLRPC
17:09:31  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
17:09:46  <TrueBrain> owh, someone already did that, how cute :)
17:10:10  <TrueBrain> @commit
17:10:10  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r24464 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt slovak.txt) (2012-08-12 17:45:13 UTC)
17:10:11  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:10:12  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
17:10:13  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: slovak - 19 changes by klingacik
17:10:22  <TrueBrain> hmm
17:11:00  <TrueBrain> @reload XMLRPC
17:11:01  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
17:11:05  <TrueBrain> there we go :)
17:11:23  * TrueBrain pets DorpsGek
17:11:30  <DorpsGek> purr purr
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17:36:00  <andythenorth> are there older changelogs online?
17:36:09  <andythenorth> for stable releases?
17:36:18  <Rubidium> andythenorth: yes
17:36:34  <andythenorth> linky?
17:36:39  <andythenorth> can't find them :P
17:37:01  <Rubidium> <- guess the rest
17:38:32  <TrueBrain> we kinda keep everything :P
17:39:04  <andythenorth> thanks
17:40:53  <frosch123> you can also check the wiki
17:41:25  <frosch123> users filter the changelog there for what they consider noteable :p
17:42:26  * Rubidium ponders going through the wiki and marking most if not all pages with: is this notable? [source needed] and such
17:42:33  <frosch123> anyway, trunk changelog contains everything
17:43:01  <frosch123> hmm, actually... 1.2 branch changelog might be better
17:43:09  <Rubidium> so does changelog.txt of your stable release for the releases before that
17:44:05  <frosch123> <- otrta
17:45:49  <frosch123> "- Feature: Center windows properly in higher resolutions" <- we should use the keyword "feature" more liberally again
17:47:53  <andythenorth> :P
17:47:59  <andythenorth> Moar Features
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18:17:01  <Yexo> good evening
18:17:12  <andythenorth> bonsoir
18:17:19  <Rubidium> 'lo Yexo
18:21:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24465 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt slovak.txt turkish.txt):
18:21:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:21:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:21:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: slovak - 5 changes by klingacik
18:21:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: turkish - 78 changes by otrkmen
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18:48:23  <andythenorth> la la la la la
18:48:26  <andythenorth> la la
18:49:01  <Rubidium> land?
18:49:24  <andythenorth> yeah
18:49:41  <andythenorth> did anyone figure out New Economy while I was in la la land?
18:51:20  <TrueBrain> I only saw Po
18:51:32  <andythenorth> no NooNoo?
18:51:36  <andythenorth> or Tinky Winky?
18:51:37  *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
18:51:40  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
18:51:46  <TrueBrain> no, he is gay
18:51:49  <andythenorth> Alberth has joined us
18:51:51  <TrueBrain> and good morning Alberth
18:51:59  <TrueBrain> those 2 remarks have no relation btw, just for the record
18:52:02  <andythenorth> Alberth probably went to la la land too
18:52:25  <Alberth> hi TrueBrain, andythenorth
18:52:47  <Alberth> if 'work' is part of la la land, yep
18:52:56  <agaran> Eddi|zuHause: you asked if i trust one who updated patch, it was Vaulter who updated to r24376, and nobody in forum thread complained about it ;)
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19:08:42  * Alberth spots a spbot
19:09:42  <andythenorth> Alberth: you might have missed the discussion about cb for total number of industries a grf thinks should be on map
19:10:01  <Alberth> s/might//
19:10:45  <Alberth> the risk is that the system only tries to build that missing industry
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19:24:10  <agaran> Alberth: of course, i understand that
19:25:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24466 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_content.cpp core/tcp_content.h network_content.cpp): -Codechange [FS#5236]: add general function for ContentType -> Subdirectory conversion (LordAro)
19:26:34  <agaran> Yexo: from code all i can see, is in worst case not working speed limiting, so not worse than no patch at all, but i dont know internals to check if how stuff is used is correct.
19:26:39  * andythenorth kind of wonders 'less talk, more code' wrt NoCo :P
19:26:45  <andythenorth> but two things fail for that
19:27:01  <andythenorth> (1) andythenorth's coding ability (2) not a good way to design interfaces / spec
19:27:04  <Alberth> only two? :)
19:27:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: branch or patch, then test tweaks to industry generation?
19:27:40  <Alberth> 2 needs a NFO spec at least
19:27:41  <andythenorth> I don't have much free time, but I can test patches and such
19:28:01  <andythenorth> how about we see what we can improve without (re)inventing spec?
19:28:24  * andythenorth can even write patches if it's simple :P
19:28:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24467 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange [FS#5236]: make textfile window class slightly more general (LordAro)
19:28:43  <Yexo> agaran: if you already update it, give me a link and I'll take a quick look
19:29:06  <Alberth> andythenorth: do you have a battle plan?
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19:29:24  <andythenorth> test the possible one line fix l2666 or such?
19:29:46  <andythenorth> apply it to my current game, as I am about to enter a period where industries need to open
19:29:48  <Alberth> what one-line fix for l2666?
19:29:49  <agaran> Yexo: not posted updated version yet, besides conflict at settings.ini it just applied (and settings.ini i fixed with help of #openttd)
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19:30:17  <andythenorth> Alberth: one you and Eddi|zuHause seemed to suggest / agree on?  Forcing new types to get built if I understood correctly (possibly not)
19:30:40  <Alberth> I see the need, but no solution yet
19:30:52  <agaran> Yexo: i am recompiling again, if i get something that adhere more to coding-style on wiki, i'll let you know on channel or something
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19:31:29  <agaran> also i dig on release not trunk, so probably need fix that part too
19:31:36  <Alberth> also, I am not convinced it's worth the effort at this time, as it just moves the problem from 0 to 1 industries
19:32:05  <andythenorth> less ideal
19:32:20  <andythenorth> something like Alu. chain needs > 1 bauxite mine to make sense
19:32:28  <Yexo> agaran: yes, when you want a patch included always make sure the diff is against trunk
19:33:09  <andythenorth> having the grf return the number of industries needed is ok-ish, at least it's clean
19:33:09  <agaran> Yexo: sure, that not sophisticated requirement unless commits per seconds are too big number
19:33:14  <andythenorth> it puts work on the newgrf author
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19:33:26  <andythenorth> and leaves no flexibility in future for GS authors
19:33:44  <Yexo> agaran: a few revisions old doesn't matter, as long as it still applies cleanly
19:33:58  <agaran> Yexo: i smiled of course, i understand
19:33:58  <andythenorth> Alberth: we can't teach game details of an industry set...but could we teach it about chains?
19:34:18  <andythenorth> in abstract, i.e. build this set of industry types in ratio xyz
19:34:37  <Alberth> andythenorth: one industry produces X, another one needs X, seems fine to me
19:35:08  <andythenorth> ach the newgrf can solve this anyway with var 67 and cb22
19:35:09  <Kjetil> also needs a concept of the worth of X
19:35:22  <andythenorth> because...?
19:37:10  * Kjetil just assumed that the point of teaching game details was to add new industrial chains without changing the source
19:39:30  * andythenorth ponders
19:39:42  * Alberth makes tea
19:39:52  <andythenorth> wise
19:40:01  * andythenorth is going to the pub in a bit to work
19:41:35  <andythenorth> Alberth: this problem starts out looking very simple
19:41:52  <andythenorth> 3 connected problems
19:42:03  <andythenorth> (1) newgrf can do nearly everything it needs to wrt closing, but has no global overview of the state of industries etc, game needs to do that
19:42:29  <andythenorth> (2) newgrf can't influence opening very much (only cb22 probability), so chains aren't completed / new types not built
19:43:09  <andythenorth> (3) game's fixed numbers of industries (per setting in map gen) are for default industries; don't match well to large industry newgrfs
19:43:22  <andythenorth> that's got to be solvable in isolation :P
19:43:55  <andythenorth> it only gets horribly complicated when I try to find a useful interface between GS and newgrf, without breaking too much of what we have
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19:49:05  <drac_boy> hi
19:49:10  <Alberth> have GS control the game mechanisms instead?
19:49:15  <Alberth> hi drac_boy
19:49:32  <drac_boy> still talking about industries again?
19:49:49  <TrueBrain> still .. again? :P
19:50:26  <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, having GS control the game mechanisms is a big +lots from me
19:50:38  <andythenorth> but then how much do you change newgrf spec to permit that?
19:50:58  <andythenorth> anyway, I can't solve it, and soon the crowd will start throwing peanuts
19:51:09  <andythenorth> if we could solve 1, 2, 3 above, I'd go away and be quiet :P
19:51:45  <andythenorth> users are quick to suggest features, but then when spec is being worked out, they throw peanuts
19:51:49  <andythenorth> it's kind of tiresome :P
19:52:44  <agaran> is --prefix-dir=... sufficient to get all trunk compiled installed there?
19:53:16  <TrueBrain> ./configure --help
19:53:19  <Alberth> I never bother to install
19:53:29  <agaran> Alberth: o, thats even better
19:53:31  <andythenorth> make run -j13
19:53:38  <andythenorth> :P
19:53:50  <agaran> TrueBrain: i have read to find --prefix-dir in place of usual --prefix by autoconf..
19:54:03  <TrueBrain> well, the text behind it says exactly what it does :)
19:54:12  <agaran> andythenorth: thank you
19:54:22  <agaran> TrueBrain: didnt worked as i expeted from reading help thus asked here..
19:54:37  <andythenorth> agaran: I didn't answer your question :)
19:54:38  <Alberth> agaran: make the data files findable by all installs, and then just "cd bin ; ./openttd" or "make run"
19:54:42  <andythenorth> just suggested an alternative
19:54:49  <TrueBrain>   --prefix-dir=dir               specifies the prefix for all installed
19:54:50  <TrueBrain>                                  files [/usr/local]
19:54:54  <agaran> andythenorth: you gave usefull alternative, thats handy
19:55:03  <TrueBrain> your question and the help do not give any room for an answer ..
19:55:22  <agaran> TrueBrain: yup, and make install failed at impossibility to create //<somedirs> where it was compiled with prefix-dir set to ~/opt/openttd-trunk/
19:55:56  <Alberth> agaran:  ~ is a shell thing, use $HOME instead
19:55:58  <TrueBrain> so your question was jus tunrelated to your problem, great :)
19:56:17  <agaran> TrueBrain: you always are so kind or just that especially for me?
19:56:31  <TrueBrain> lately we have a lot of people who ask that was it clearly documented
19:56:36  <TrueBrain> it is exhausting
19:56:45  <TrueBrain> if you just said your issue from the start, this conversation would never have happened :)
19:56:54  <agaran> Alberth: i know, some apps cope with ~ well
19:58:00  <Alberth> andythenorth: 1,2, 3 seems like a good goal to me
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19:58:09  <agaran> TrueBrain: yes, will remember to not ask you
19:58:11  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24468 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Add [FS#5219]: API compatibility scripts for Goal Scripts (Hirundo)
19:58:18  <TrueBrain> @kban agaran 300 now you are rude
19:58:20  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
19:58:20  *** agaran was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [now you are rude]
19:58:55  <andythenorth> Alberth: before patching any game I could just try returning highest value for probability to cb22
19:59:12  <Alberth> andythenorth: for random suggestions, smooth economy for ind newgrfs?
19:59:31  <andythenorth> you mean, use that setting?  Or change something?
19:59:58  <Alberth> make newgrfs aware of it was my intention :)
20:00:10  <andythenorth> they kind of are via monthly prod. change cb
20:00:12  <Alberth> but likely it is complicated :p
20:00:48  <andythenorth> frosch123 would know better than me, but I thought smooth economy was primarily 'use monthly not random', and then adjust values to suit
20:01:36  <andythenorth> I'll try the cb22 probability adjustment in FIRS soon
20:01:40  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:02:08  <Alberth> I doubt that using high cb22 values has much effect; new industries already have it due to not having any instance at the map
20:02:12  <andythenorth> me too
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20:03:04  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!] by Yexo
20:03:14  <TrueBrain> Yexo: 2 seconds before DorpsGek would? :P
20:03:25  <Yexo> oh, was it 5 minutes?
20:03:32  <TrueBrain> what do you think? :P
20:03:36  <Yexo> nvm, not sure what I was thinking :p
20:04:06  <andythenorth> so I have a 512x512 map with 218 industries
20:04:15  <andythenorth> and the default for 'normal' at 256 would be 55
20:04:30  <andythenorth> so I basically have 2 slots, if I've guessed the scaling factor correctly
20:05:03  <andythenorth> and I have 11 types that have 0 instances, due to not being available yet
20:05:30  <andythenorth> and to get meaningful production amounts, ~20 new industries need to be added to the map
20:05:39  <andythenorth> most within next 50 years
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20:06:28  <frosch123> smooth economy is a dead end
20:06:45  <Alberth> ?
20:06:47  <andythenorth> ?
20:06:51  <frosch123> it's a hack which modifies production multipliers instead of rate
20:06:56  <andythenorth> ah
20:07:03  <andythenorth> New Economy
20:07:14  <andythenorth> scale the rate of changes
20:07:17  <frosch123> you can expose the setting, but you cannot make the code of it useful
20:07:34  <andythenorth> k
20:07:53  <andythenorth> so I only test FIRS with smooth economy enabled, but does that make any real difference?
20:08:09  <frosch123> i would hope some day we can remove that setting, and replace it with a newgrf
20:08:30  <andythenorth> economy newgrf?
20:08:37  <Alberth> frosch123: for my understanding, 10% increase is just keeping production where it is, but multiplying the output with 1.1 ?
20:08:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: smooth economy is disabled if you enable the production callback, or any of the production change callbacks
20:08:53  <andythenorth> k
20:09:03  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r24469 /trunk/bin/game/ (. compat_1.2.nut compat_1.3.nut): -Fix (r24468): forgot to svn add the new files
20:09:16  <TrueBrain> Yexo: owh you fixed that? Awesome :)
20:09:52  <frosch123> "-Feature: Compatibility scripts for windows" ?
20:09:53  <Yexo> my first commits in 5 months
20:09:58  <TrueBrain> gratz
20:10:02  <TrueBrain> and welcome back :P
20:10:04  <Yexo> it's been too long
20:10:07  <Alberth> \o/
20:10:15  <TrueBrain> hmm ... is it me, or did the commit script fail
20:10:18  <frosch123> Alberth: no idea, what you wanted to tell me :)
20:11:27  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you and your features :P We really will see all your commits as Feature now, don't we?
20:11:54  <frosch123> TrueBrain: take a look at the 0.1.1 changelog and what was considered a feature back then :p
20:11:55  <Alberth> frosch123: I was asking a question to get a better understanding of what you said about smooth economy being hack-ish, I read it but lack context
20:11:58  <Yexo> <TrueBrain> hmm ... is it me, or did the commit script fail <- in which way?
20:12:08  <TrueBrain> Yexo: check what is before compat_1.2.nut
20:12:14  <TrueBrain> a dot?
20:12:20  <TrueBrain> not sure ... it looks odd
20:12:29  <TrueBrain> frosch123: features ar ein the eye of the beholder
20:12:53  <frosch123> [19:10] <frosch123> "- Feature: Center windows properly in higher resolutions" <- we should use the keyword "feature" more liberally again
20:12:54  <Yexo> I think that dot is because of "svn add bin/game/"
20:12:58  <Yexo> adding a new directory
20:13:03  <TrueBrain> ah
20:13:08  <TrueBrain> never seen it before :D
20:13:13  <Yexo> me neither
20:13:39  <andythenorth> hmm
20:13:44  * andythenorth explores ChangeIndustryProduction once again
20:14:02  <andythenorth> when I mention that industry_cmd.cpp is full of madness, I do mean this function, amongst others
20:14:13  <andythenorth> so many fricking conditional clauses
20:14:32  <frosch123> Alberth: smooth economy making smaller production changes is one thing; but the problem is that it changes the production of multiple output cargos independently and abuses production multipliers in a way, that makes it completely incompatible with newgrf
20:15:01  <frosch123> maybe we should change smooth economy so that it changes the production multiplier
20:15:09  <andythenorth> maybe
20:15:14  <frosch123> gah, and we need better terms than production multipleirs and rates
20:15:14  <andythenorth> or maybe there should just be one economy
20:15:26  <frosch123> i messed them up, so i made no sense :p
20:15:27  <andythenorth> he
20:15:31  <andythenorth> yes that
20:15:32  <andythenorth> :)
20:15:47  <TrueBrain> -Feature: better terms for production multipliers and rates
20:15:56  <andythenorth> codechange :P
20:15:58  <Alberth> "production multiplier" means absolutely nothing to me :)
20:16:09  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you win the prize for abuse of -Feature
20:16:11  <TrueBrain> so it is 0?
20:16:18  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: thank you thank you
20:16:34  <andythenorth> frosch123 ideal: we have one economy, but ChangeIndustryProduction is called more or less often.  We bin a lot of that conditional code
20:16:37  <frosch123> Alberth: Industry::production_rate vs. prod_level
20:16:44  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it was only on frosch123's request to use it more liberal
20:17:01  <andythenorth> frosch123: 'output' would have made more sense for one of those vars
20:17:30  <andythenorth> prod. multiplier makes complete sense when we use it
20:17:35  <andythenorth> shame the code doesn't use it too :P
20:18:25  <andythenorth> fancy an industry_cmd.cpp refactor?
20:18:50  <Alberth> only if it is a feature :p
20:19:10  <andythenorth> -Feature: removed madness
20:19:17  <andythenorth> -Feature: reduced confusion
20:19:18  <Yexo> -Feature: better code due to a refactor
20:19:33  <TrueBrain> hmm ... map-rewrite ....
20:19:34  <andythenorth> -Feature: used less confusion to agree spec; added new madness
20:19:35  <TrueBrain> just saying
20:19:41  <andythenorth> true dat
20:20:49  <andythenorth> ha
20:20:59  <andythenorth> if (smooth_economy) { [boring silly code] }
20:21:03  <andythenorth> should die ^
20:21:12  <TrueBrain> -Feature: die
20:21:13  <andythenorth> just bin it :P
20:21:14  <TrueBrain> wait?
20:21:29  <andythenorth> -Feature: rm-ed all code for fewer bugs
20:21:45  <andythenorth> I taught our work irc bot to swear btw
20:21:51  <andythenorth> definitely good use of time
20:21:51  <TrueBrain> I once made a patch for peter, which fixed all bugs
20:21:55  <TrueBrain> he didn't appreciate the patch
20:21:58  <andythenorth> he
20:22:00  <TrueBrain> (it removed everything)
20:22:17  <andythenorth> didn't you once get rid of all the bugs in the repo?
20:22:24  <andythenorth> the repo was bug free for a time?
20:22:55  <andythenorth> where did smooth economy come from?
20:22:58  <Yexo> it certainly wasn't possible to get buggy code out of the repo :p
20:23:07  <Yexo> ttdpatch?
20:23:27  <andythenorth> does smooth economy do anything that couldn't be substituted by something else, like newgrf?
20:23:40  <andythenorth> or a better way of getting similar result
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20:25:55  <Yexo> good night all
20:26:58  <Alberth> good night Y
20:27:24  <Alberth> andythenorth: seems it needs more understanding first :)
20:28:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: maybe it's the place to start for any kind of fixing
20:28:07  <andythenorth> seems we're unhappy with it
20:28:27  <andythenorth> every time I go into industry_cmd.cpp it makes me die a little inside :)
20:28:51  <Alberth> hide the file
20:29:07  <Alberth> to be sure rip the disk out of your machine, and burn it
20:29:21  <andythenorth> burning doesn't destroy
20:29:28  <andythenorth> need to vaporise the platters
20:29:30  <andythenorth> hammer helps
20:30:16  <andythenorth> anyway, I know high loc count can be due to very well-finished code, handling edge cases
20:30:29  <andythenorth> but smooth economy has ~50 loc, and non-smooth has ~3 loc :P
20:30:48  <Alberth> major patch thus :)
20:30:48  <frosch123> TrueBrain: your patch was way too big to review
20:30:52  <andythenorth> yet we know the results of smooth economy are problematic :P
20:31:29  <andythenorth> anyway
20:31:31  * andythenorth -> pub
20:31:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: haha, it was :D
20:31:37  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: anjoy
20:31:40  <TrueBrain> enjoy even
20:31:45  <andythenorth> I shell
20:31:49  <andythenorth> bye
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20:40:55  <lilleman> Anyone knows of any problems with see through (or actually the lack of) buildings etc on Linux?
20:41:13  <lilleman> Or is it just me that cant handle the GUI well enough? :)
20:41:32  <lilleman> My cities gets huge, and I cant find my bus depots :p
20:42:57  <TrueBrain> not really ..
20:43:02  <TrueBrain> X normally makes stuff transparent
20:43:07  <TrueBrain> not OS depending if it works or not
20:43:22  <TrueBrain> so what is the problem exactly?
20:43:58  <lilleman> The buildings just... dont get see through
20:44:20  <lilleman> I click the gear
20:44:39  <lilleman> and make sure "Transparent buildings" are checked
20:44:42  <lilleman> but nothing happends
20:44:49  <TrueBrain> did you enable transparency itself?
20:44:53  <TrueBrain> dunno if that matters tbh
20:45:06  <lilleman> Just because I went into this channel, it works now
20:45:11  <lilleman> Just like that
20:45:18  <TrueBrain> well, this channel happen to do that
20:45:18  <frosch123> lilleman: press ctrl+x
20:45:23  <TrueBrain> its a magic channel
20:45:30  <lilleman> I believe so
20:45:34  <lilleman> Thanks for the magic :)
20:45:48  <drac_boy> heh
20:54:39  <TrueBrain> okay, I just tried Minecraft 1.3
20:54:40  <TrueBrain> never again
20:55:59  <lilleman> Why?
20:56:22  <lilleman> And, is it possible to clear houses in a city? Or will the authorities always refuse this?
20:56:50  <lilleman> If that is the case, how is one supposed to develope larger city terminals?
20:58:00  <frosch123> lilleman: plant trees to make them happy
20:58:26  <Kjetil> then destroy the trees to punish them!
20:58:29  <Kjetil> mohahaha
20:58:36  <TrueBrain> or bribe the city
20:58:36  <frosch123> or provide good service
20:58:38  <TrueBrain> or, ofc, cheat
21:00:31  <Alberth> or build them early in the game
21:02:02  <Alberth> good night
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21:03:27  <drac_boy> I've always had Outstanding rating in a short time ... except for sometimes having Good or Poor rating that sticks at small villages I simply had to bypass
21:03:31  <drac_boy> :)
21:04:41  *** keyy [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
21:09:45  <lilleman> okok. thanks :)
21:10:20  <lilleman> Is it possible to see how happy the authorities are?
21:12:12  <drac_boy> lilleman open the dialog for the town ... it'll tell you right there
21:12:27  <lilleman> oh
21:13:35  <drac_boy> usually it starts with Good (which is not shown atm) .. but destroy more than a few small things and it'll drop ... if you get down to Poor you pretty much can't do any constructions anymore within town perimeters
21:14:01  <drac_boy> sometimes you need a higher rating than Good to be able to blow up certain bigger buildings tho (the Stadium sometimes does that too)
21:14:07  <TrueBrain> this game will make you a tree hugger
21:14:14  <TrueBrain> it is our way to promote green
21:14:30  <drac_boy> heh :p
21:15:52  <drac_boy> well I'm already a tree hugger.. I don't build excessive multiply lines and keep locomotives for as long as I can?  :P
21:15:55  <drac_boy> heh
21:17:33  <TrueBrain> so you use old dirty engines for a long time?
21:17:40  <TrueBrain> over replacing them for a better env-friendly version?
21:17:42  <TrueBrain> pfffff
21:17:59  <drac_boy> not really
21:18:09  <frosch123> TrueBrain: he's still using horses
21:18:19  <TrueBrain> frosch123: their poop is bad for the env
21:18:30  <frosch123> no, it is great
21:18:34  <TrueBrain> ieuw
21:18:48  <frosch123> everyone with a garden is hunting after horses to collect their stuff
21:18:52  <drac_boy> frosch123 even real railroads have this problem ... 17 years old class of electric locomotives being replaced by a similar new class .. except that the latter has more thermal problems during winter
21:19:00  <drac_boy> sometimes newer doesn't always mean better
21:19:06  <TrueBrain> it does!
21:19:09  <TrueBrain> I disagree!
21:19:12  <TrueBrain> JUDGE!
21:19:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: just compare yourself with today's youth
21:19:49  <frosch123> are they better? :p
21:19:57  <TrueBrain> hmm
21:19:59  <TrueBrain> the females are
21:20:03  <TrueBrain> I often want to replace for a newer model
21:20:19  <frosch123> :s
21:20:32  <TrueBrain> (I mean in a legal sense, ofc)
21:21:55  <frosch123> <- whenever that topic comes up, i have to think about that image
21:21:58  <frosch123> (sorry, german)
21:22:26  <drac_boy> on the other hand theres diesel re-powering in certain cases both in usa and europe ... eg the EMD SW600 may be a rather old design but to find one still running around with fresh new two 370hp gensets under its hood just goes to show otherwise
21:22:30  <TrueBrain> should I take it as a sign that that page gives me a timeout?
21:22:37  <TrueBrain> which is ironic, given its domain
21:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: ever seen that How I Met Your Mother episode when they asked "what is your newest whisky?" :p
21:22:49  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I have seen them all, but I cannot remember :s
21:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it was exactly about this argument: "Newer is always better"
21:23:52  <Eddi|zuHause> "so the new star wars films, are they better than the old ones?"
21:23:53  <TrueBrain> PING 56 data bytes
21:23:55  <frosch123> anyway, replacing tb with a girl sounds like a nice plan
21:23:55  <TrueBrain> ^C
21:23:56  <TrueBrain> --- ping statistics ---
21:23:58  <TrueBrain> 5 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 3999ms
21:23:59  <TrueBrain> the irony
21:24:20  <TrueBrain> (IPv6 fails, but they have AAAA record)
21:24:26  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
21:24:32  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am all in for that
21:24:45  <TrueBrain> any females who want to volunteer?
21:26:35  <Kjetil> Any second now...
21:26:52  <V453000> :D
21:28:27  <TrueBrain> well, that concludes that quest
21:28:29  <TrueBrain> dammit
21:29:42  <Kjetil> Could probably rent one from
21:30:22  <TrueBrain> my roommate was dating a polish girl .. the jokes made ... the jokes made ...
21:32:18  <Kjetil> :D
21:36:44  <frosch123> night
21:36:47  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:38:35  <TrueBrain> I have to write a bot for frosch
21:38:39  <TrueBrain> when he says night, that it replies
21:38:42  <TrueBrain> as ... damn, he is fast
21:39:27  <NGC3982> Someone said
21:39:31  <NGC3982> Oh.
21:39:39  <TrueBrain> you have a highlight there?
21:39:44  <TrueBrain> that is just sick, sorry, but, really?
21:39:53  <NGC3982> Definetly not the channel i first thought of.
21:40:17  <TrueBrain> haha
21:41:03  <NGC3982> It's funny.
21:41:19  <TrueBrain> the site?
21:41:27  <NGC3982> People can complain a lot on my telemarketing business, but selling people is for some reason ok.
21:41:31  <NGC3982> ;)
21:41:49  <TrueBrain> you own a telemarketing business?
21:41:53  <TrueBrain> you and I need to hav ea talk ....
21:41:57  <TrueBrain> my foot
21:42:07  <TrueBrain> your ... hav eyou ever watched the Seventy show?
21:42:23  <NGC3982> Im sorry?
21:42:29  <TrueBrain> you don't know it?
21:42:45  <TrueBrain>
21:42:48  <NGC3982> That Seventees show, yes. the Seventy show? Nietskij, comrade.
21:42:57  <TrueBrain> tomato tomato
21:43:01  <TrueBrain> its late
21:43:15  <NGC3982> (I actually thought you ment something else :P)
21:43:20  <TrueBrain> I didnt :)
21:43:22  <NGC3982> But yes, i have. Lot's of it.
21:43:27  <TrueBrain> I just didn't want to say what I wanted to say :P
21:43:38  <TrueBrain> as it is not really polite to do :P
21:44:38  <NGC3982> Oh, yes. The telemarketing business is greatly strucken by prejudice and "Oh that means you want my dead sons money".
21:45:08  <TrueBrain> all I can think about are the annoying calls
21:45:11  <NGC3982> When it's basicly the word used to define almost everything done by phone.
21:45:29  <TrueBrain> I hate to be called at some off hour to ask me if I want something
21:45:34  <Kjetil> *shoves NGC3982 down the stairs and mumbles something about bringing out the gimp*
21:45:37  <TrueBrain> if I want something, I will come to you, not the other way around :)
21:55:17  <TrueBrain> but no worries NGC3982, we love you no matter what your job is :)
21:56:26  <NGC3982> :)
21:56:35  <TrueBrain> and with we I mean I
21:56:37  <TrueBrain> :P
21:56:41  * NGC3982 sells TB a dead seal
21:57:00  <TrueBrain> I am waiting for my statis period to end, and it nowhere tells me when exactly
21:57:01  <TrueBrain> its boring
21:58:43  <NGC3982> statis?
21:59:37  <TrueBrain> EVE Online
21:59:38  <TrueBrain> don't ask
22:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ask!
22:06:40  <Rubidium> is Adam online as well?
22:08:14  <TrueBrain> I am sure he is
22:13:57  <NGC3982> I think im going to make a salute hymn to tardigrades.
22:15:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not parse
22:15:58  * TrueBrain inserts Perl
22:16:00  <TrueBrain> helps?
22:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never ever had a situation where perl helped me :p
22:16:37  <TrueBrain> that is the joke!
22:16:39  <TrueBrain> :P
22:25:44  <Terkhen> good night
22:26:22  <drac_boy> bye Terkhen
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22:36:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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