Log for #openttd on 17th August 2012:
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00:06:29  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, autosave duplicates the map
00:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause> as a rough estimate, the map uses 9 bytes per tile
00:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause> plus what external storage there is for vehicles and industries etc.
00:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> in busy games, cargo may take up a great deal of memory
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07:48:50  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:09:18  <telanus> morning
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08:28:19  <NGC3982> Morning.
08:28:26  <Supercheese> salve
08:28:53  <dihedral> hey
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08:41:47  <Mucht> hey there!
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09:30:51  <Wolf01> morning o/
09:31:05  <Supercheese> Good night, actually
09:31:07  <Supercheese> Valete
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10:13:03  <Warod> w 31
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10:33:04  <Dodez> Does the industry grow in FIRS like in vanilla ottd ?
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10:39:40  <drac_boy> hi
11:09:19  <drush> hi
11:12:56  <V453000> helo.
11:18:00  <Phazorx> hola
11:33:54  <drac_boy> how're all you three?
11:35:02  <V453000> this way.
11:37:48  <drac_boy> btw was just thinking about this slight odd question, do one-way road affect or not affect trams? I'm guessing latter but hmm
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11:38:14  <V453000> yes, they dont
11:38:34  <drac_boy> yeah I couldn't imagine a tram coming to one facing it and 'freeze' :)
11:38:36  <drac_boy> thanks
11:39:15  <V453000> makes trams a bit less controllable [utterly dumb] .)
11:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> this whole thing needs a better concept
11:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause> one-way roads are pretty useless
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11:41:50  <V453000> not really it gives road vehicles at least some control similar to train signals
11:41:53  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah, I've never bothered with the grf that added it to the patch anyway
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11:47:23  <Phazorx> coopers use one way roads to direct road traffic to loading array, you can pack 4 vehicles to single lorry/bus station in that fashion
11:53:24  <V453000> depends where really, sometimes 2way roads do not hurt anything either, but for the sake of at least some system on the network I think you always need at least some 2way roads
11:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: ok, it gives you "control"... but what for?
11:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: other than forbidding the road that leads across a railway crossing, i have never seen a use for it. and since then, the pathfinder has been adapted to avoid crossings
11:54:58  <V453000> for evading an inevitable mess of 2way roads?
11:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: while for rails, making them one-way increases capacity, for road it reduces capacity
11:55:42  <V453000> when you reach serious amount of RVs and need to split traffic into multiple roads, 1ways are 100% necessary
11:56:08  <V453000> yeah, capacity of a single roads; but 2 way roads cant really be managed well in large scale
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11:56:58  <Phazorx>
11:57:01  <V453000> RVs would start turning around in spots and doing similar stuff
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11:57:18  <NGC3982> How cute.
11:57:49  <Phazorx>
11:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: that only "works" because LV4 does not have articulated vehicles
11:58:09  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: what's the problem with a-vehicle?
11:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: they can't overtake
11:58:51  <Phazorx> i wonder why not
11:59:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a code restriction
11:59:42  <V453000> from
12:00:00  <V453000> if there were 2way roads, RVs would start to randomly go around stuff
12:00:14  <V453000> it is a bit of an extreme case, but ..
12:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a road connection missing on the left
12:00:56  <V453000> purposedly
12:01:19  <V453000> you cant really make RVs detect if the line is full or not with a priority so sometimes you just have to cut the option :)
12:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: what i mean: if one-way roads would have a sane concept how it can occupy both lanes, it would probably need a much smaller junction
12:03:15  <V453000> well yeah but that doesnt technically change anything in the general logic of road vehicles
12:03:21  <V453000> like ... signals on bridges
12:03:33  <V453000> yeah, allows to make things smaller, but generally doesnt reach anything
12:04:02  <V453000> I think there should remain the decision of "do I waste throughput by 1way road or can I maintain 2way roads"
12:04:14  <V453000> just like "do I have single bridge enough, or do I need to multiply"
12:04:36  <V453000> both making 1way roads "sane" or having signals on bridges would remove such option, adding no other
12:05:44  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: why is there such code restriction btw?
12:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: nobody ever touched that code to adapt it to articulated vehicles
12:06:21  <drac_boy> Phazorx probably to do with first section following second section
12:06:51  <drac_boy> as I recall some time ago there was some bugs about bus leaving depot but the second section did not quite "follow" first one :)
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12:27:43  <drac_boy> what do you think of canals? (not rivers yeah)
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12:29:28  <V453000> ships dont exist in openttd.
12:31:33  <drush> V453000 what do you mean they don't
12:32:47  <V453000> they dont.
12:36:36  <__ln___> they dont or they don't?
12:37:03  <drush> is there a word like "dont"?
12:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> first result of google is french :)
12:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and then lots of "don't"
12:40:29  <drac_boy> -_-
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12:43:56  <drush>
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12:49:56  <V453000> why do you make a screenshot of empty lake with a shore
12:49:57  <V453000> point invalid
12:50:14  <drush> how?
12:50:18  <drush> the ships are palpable
12:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i just see a bunch of pixels... what was the point?
12:50:30  <drush> that they exist
12:50:32  <drush> in ottd
12:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> pixels exist?
12:50:43  <drush> on a screen
12:51:42  <V453000> photoshopped
12:51:47  <V453000> nothing so stupid exists in openttd
12:51:48  <drush> LOL
12:55:34  <Phazorx> this reminds me of FS#1063
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12:56:01  <drush>
12:56:36  <NGC3982> That looks so cute.
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12:57:25  <NGC3982> drush: I dont understand. What's wrong?
12:57:50  <drush> NGC3982 supposedly ships don't exist in this game
12:59:50  <NGC3982> According to what?
13:01:13  <V453000> I like the amount of confusion I caused
13:01:17  <drush> ^
13:01:47  <drush> I can agree that they don't exist as a means of making srs cash
13:02:05  <drush> they're helpful for when you can't afford infrastructure
13:02:43  <NGC3982> I think i should leave this discussion before i get some kind of stroke.
13:02:45  <V453000> even if they made billions per second it would not make them less dumb to use
13:03:31  <drush> while they make money, remember about the first principle of investment
13:03:37  <drush> don't waste money
13:03:40  <NGC3982> Im sorry, but different vehicles exists to ccreate diversity, right?
13:03:44  <NGC3982> -c
13:03:46  * drac_boy actually prefers to use ships at times
13:03:51  <drac_boy> NGC3982 agreed with you
13:03:53  <NGC3982> I love ships.
13:04:16  <drush> I prefer ships on small maps because building lots of infrastructure ruins your reputation with local auths
13:04:26  <drush> thus ruining your bzns prospects
13:04:39  * NGC3982 loves hem because they are cute and make up fun games.
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13:05:55  <drush> also, ships are immune to disasters
13:05:58  <drush> afaik
13:06:31  <drush> I never saw a ship get mauled by an incoming train or crash on the landing strip
13:06:47  <drush> but that'd be fun to watch though
13:06:50  <NGC3982> :D
13:08:30  <drush> speaking of disasters,
13:09:13  <drac_boy> heh I use small ships if I'm finding that the land-going option means going a bit of long way around plus long bridge spans .. which sometimes isn't worth it if its only a hundred tonnes each month or so
13:10:21  <drush>
13:10:22  <Phazorx> Rubidium... we should have an iceberg-like disaster
13:10:34  <drush> Phazorx I agree
13:10:35  <Phazorx> ships are meant to sink
13:11:02  <drac_boy> Phazorx problem is.. iceberg != tropical
13:11:04  <drac_boy> heh
13:11:11  <Phazorx> drush: this game is actualy about ifrastructure management, ships and planes are 2 vehicle types that require none
13:11:32  <drush> drac_boy in tropical we could have nigerian/somalian pirates instead ;)
13:11:40  <Phazorx> planes at least queue for landings, ships just pile up everywhere defying every imaginable space constraints
13:11:47  <drac_boy> Phazorx did you forgot about landscaping and property useage? :)
13:11:57  <Phazorx> which is none for ships
13:12:03  <drac_boy> Phazorx actually..there is
13:12:15  <drac_boy> docks...the depots...any canals privately owned...etc
13:12:27  <drush> yeah but what he means
13:12:30  <drac_boy> and buoys if you want to count that as land property as well
13:12:32  <Phazorx> 6 tiles (and that is including the docks) are you kidding me?
13:12:37  <drush> is that ships can stack on each other
13:12:39  <drac_boy> Phazorx .. more than 10 at times
13:12:48  <drush> planes, cars and trains cannot overlay each other
13:13:01  <Phazorx> oh geez... mainatance for shipline is almsot like a half of my single station?
13:13:09  <drush> unless they do it on themself like here
13:13:26  <drush> which isn't really possible
13:13:27  <drac_boy> drush problem do you have a northbound ship and southbound ship "meet" at a single-width canal? hence why its done like that on purpose
13:13:48  <drac_boy> roads at least already come with 2 lanes
13:13:54  <drush> drac_boy I think they could wait at the other side of the canal until its clear
13:14:05  <drac_boy> drush that'll be do you even tell what a water route is then?
13:14:36  <drush> we can assume that water works just like roads
13:15:02  <drush> and that canals work like signalized railroads
13:15:07  <drac_boy> drush and calculate 900+ water tiles each tick? I'm still too unsure about that
13:15:17  <drush> you got a point
13:15:42  <drac_boy> yeah, these alternative ship pathfinders still don't exactly do much else for cpu load on some servers yet
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13:23:06  <drac_boy> drush at least if theres one thing comforting..its that its not only ships
13:23:20  <drac_boy> planes actually don't 'see' each others as soon as they are out of any airport zones :)
13:23:34  <drac_boy> otherwise there would had been a lot of mid-air crashes :)
13:30:01  <Phazorx> more aestetically worring the fact that planes dont see buildings
13:30:25  <drac_boy> only happens at mountaintop skyscapers as far as I can tell :)
13:31:02  <Phazorx> happens all the time with ttrs and perhaps even default if there are buildings right at the end of runaway
13:31:19  <drac_boy> oh runaway...well yeah that figures now
13:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: but opposing to simcity, you have no way of controlling the buildings here
13:32:10  <drush> Phazorx 9/11
13:32:13  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: well actually you do, and pretty much same way as in real world
13:32:31  <Phazorx> you buy/lock area around
13:33:19  <Phazorx> while you can not control what kind of buildings can be there, you can avoid having them at all
13:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds stupid
13:34:22  <Phazorx> realistic
13:34:42  <Phazorx> have you seen many large airports situated in busy downtonws?
13:34:44  <drac_boy> I'm going off for a bit... be back later tho :)
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13:35:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: berlin tegel?
13:36:12  <Phazorx> looking at gmaps... cant even find runaway there
13:36:33  <Phazorx> ahh now i see
13:36:41  <Phazorx> we;; it has forest around it
13:36:45  <Phazorx> quite a bit of forest
13:37:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there was also the smaller berlin tempelhof, but that one is already closed
13:37:27  <Phazorx> people generally dont enjoy sounds of jets, so it;s quite understandable that no one wants to live/work there even if it would be allowed
13:38:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well tegel was supposed to get closed 2 months ago
13:38:16  <Phazorx> there are a few that actualy are in downtown
13:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but they had a major fuckup with the new airport
13:38:40  <Phazorx> like LGA or YTO
13:38:47  <Phazorx> but their runaways are facing water
13:39:22  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: my point still stands - there should be no building (especially tall) next to runaways
13:39:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the new airport was supposed to be in schönefeld, which is directly outside of city borders
13:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: make a newairports grf with larger airport area surrounding the runway then
13:40:48  <V453000> XD
13:40:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (can only expand the two lower directions though, as afaik there is no way to move the "anchor point" of the state machine from the northern tile)
13:40:59  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: probably not quite proper aproach
13:41:22  <Phazorx> imho there should be 2 mechanisms in action
13:41:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: it's the approach that is permitted by current gameplay mechanics
13:41:51  <Belugas> hello
13:42:08  <Phazorx> 1st you are not supposed to place airport to close to existing town, and second there should be a growth limitting factor in area nearbay so town would go around expanding
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13:42:42  <Phazorx> noise as factor i think already is sort of "considered"
13:43:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes it is. but it fails to override noise factor of a small town if a big city nearby demands a large airport
13:43:38  <Eddi|zuHause> which is "not realistic"
13:43:42  <V453000> welcome to realistic discussion Belugas :)
13:45:04  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: sounds liek matter of priorities, and while some municipality demands airport it's up to player to figure out where to put it
13:47:42  <Belugas> bah...
13:49:20  <Belugas> it's always the player who decides everything, anyway..
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13:50:27  <Phazorx> Belugas: i mean the engine has contraints and player makes decisions on how to comply to them best from own interest point of view
13:51:37  <Belugas> yup
13:51:40  <Belugas> agreed
13:52:24  <Belugas> so the other way around would be to have towns specifying in which area an airport would be desirable, an what type, further more
13:52:48  <Phazorx> Belugas: and then you need town/city limits to figure out authority
13:52:53  <Phazorx> and it's a whole differnt game then
13:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: btw look at how i placed the airports in my last game:,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png
13:54:03  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: i do similar setups in "natuarl looking games"
13:54:11  <Phazorx> even for large stations
13:54:30  <Phazorx> having local commuter network and feeders for large terminals is an obvious choice imo
13:55:23  <Phazorx> and having roads as grouth restraints is pretty much what i said earlier about player owning area next to runaways
13:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> this was a YACD came, btw.
13:55:43  <Phazorx> i still cant get to yacd to work with recent version though
13:56:02  <Phazorx> do you have an updated repo somewhere or you just use old verion?
13:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that was a really old version
13:56:17  <Phazorx> i see
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15:55:40  <drac_boy> hi
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16:58:21  <NGC3982> Calm down, damnit!
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16:59:57  <c_korn> hello, I have problem with openttd 1.2.2 on Ubuntu 12.04. after first starting the game and downloading OpenGFX-0.4.4 the download progress stops at 99% and the only output on the terminal is: shm_open() failed: Function not implemented
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17:12:49  <Yexo> good evening
17:13:31  <c_korn> forget what I said. /dev/shm was missing in my chroot. works now. soon to be published on
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17:13:51  <SpComb> chroot Oo
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17:29:53  <Alberth> wiebadiedoe
17:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i don't understand simearth... technology advanced kinda fast until industrial and atomic age, but the atomic always dies out...
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18:15:07  * NGC3982 notes to V453000 that Zombie Slain still is one of the better engine names ever.
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18:15:45  <V453000> what
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18:20:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24478 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
18:20:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:20:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 3 changes by Phreeze
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18:31:52  <andythenorth> bonjours
18:33:57  <Alberth> hi hi
18:35:18  <andythenorth> hmm
18:35:24  <andythenorth> I want to type /moi in irc instead of /me
18:35:25  <andythenorth> :P
18:37:42  <SpComb> mui
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18:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just a matter of setting up an alias
18:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on your client
18:40:32  <andythenorth> my client is not clever
18:40:39  <Kjetil_> fire it
18:40:42  <andythenorth> anyway, been thinking about FIRS primaries
18:41:07  <andythenorth> they should probably, under certain conditions, be allowed to close
18:41:30  <andythenorth> I prevent them closing entirely (parameter option), which keeps the map relatively full of them
18:41:40  <andythenorth> which is a problem for new industries
18:43:08  <Alberth> today I thought about letting newgrf know of the state of an industry-type
18:43:55  <Alberth> that is, whether there are not enough or too many of a type
18:44:04  <andythenorth> hmm
18:44:10  <andythenorth> the probability is supposed to signal that
18:44:18  <andythenorth> it's limited / obscure ?
18:44:46  <andythenorth> I'm not going to change any of this in FIRS btw until there is more plan :)
18:44:49  <andythenorth> but I had some ideas
18:45:08  <Alberth> probability says how many there should be, not how many there actually are
18:45:34  <Alberth> the latter is needed if a newgrf is going to decide what to do
18:46:03  <Alberth> unless we move that decision to the game engine completely :p
18:47:08  <Alberth> ie suppose there are supposed to be 10 of a type, but there are 5, so the type can get info like "50% coverage" or so
18:47:59  <Alberth> on the other hand, when there are 12 present, you'd get "120%"
18:48:19  <Alberth> which could then be used by the newgrf whether or not to close down
18:49:35  <andythenorth> that can be done now, cb29 / 35 and var 67 or similar
18:49:58  <andythenorth> wonder if it would be nice?
18:50:13  <andythenorth> might need to stay within bounds, not aim for a single integer target
18:50:25  <andythenorth> otherwise every game tends to same industry mix
18:54:57  <Alberth> var67 sounds terribly complicated
18:55:55  <Alberth> also, you cannot add all probabilities of the industries, so you cannot compute your own relative amount that you should have
18:58:19  <andythenorth> no
18:58:28  <andythenorth> and I'd have to map scale it
18:59:00  <andythenorth> and it would be more code to maintain :P
19:04:23  <Rubidium> andythenorth: just make an alias for /moi to /me ;)
19:07:28  <Kjetil_> hm. shouldn't the amount of industries in a area follow the population count of nearby towns ?
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19:09:30  <andythenorth> yes
19:09:33  <andythenorth> absolutely
19:09:45  <andythenorth> why though?
19:10:34  <Kjetil_> Industries needs workers
19:11:37  <Alberth> industries have underground dungeons where they keep their workers
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19:11:46  <Kjetil_> ah
19:12:26  <Rubidium> actually, only two industries need workers: steel mills and oil rigs. With oil rigs you got a pretty good chance to return, but steel mill workers are used as coal
19:15:01  <Kjetil_> I guess if one where aiming for realism the industry mix would be dependent on the current decade
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19:16:51  <NGC3982> Alberth: Like in Dungeon Keeper?
19:17:05  <NGC3982> The steel mill does look like a potential top of the Dungeon Keeper scenes.
19:17:06  <Alberth> no idea, never played that
19:17:09  <NGC3982> Just sayin'.
19:17:11  <NGC3982> :P
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19:23:11  <NGC3982> Oh fart. How i hate pressing the wrong buttons in the town window.
19:23:56  <Kjetil_> Did you pay for road reconstruction ?
19:24:32  <Rubidium> just turn the undo knob!
19:24:45  <Kjetil_> turn it all the way to eleven
19:24:56  <NGC3982> Kjetil_: Yes..
19:25:13  <NGC3982> My word, FIRS+NUTS is fantastic.
19:26:30  <drush> lol road reco
19:26:47  <drush> perfect for ruining competitor's urban transport
19:27:02  <drush> much better than traing-camping
19:28:24  <NGC3982> I find myself reluctant on playing that aggressively
19:29:52  <drush> NGC3982 it's just business
19:30:05  <NGC3982> :)
19:30:38  <drush> but yeah if you can afford a new train to run over a few of your competitor's cars,
19:30:47  <drush> then why not also ruin their local auth rep
19:31:15  <drush> "competitor transport blazes in a fireball. 25 killed. don't ride their buses!"
19:31:31  <NGC3982> :D
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19:33:45  <Kjetil_> now if we only added ground-to-air missiles
19:34:08  <NGC3982> Or terrorism.
19:34:38  <Kjetil_> Corporate armies
19:35:50  <NGC3982> Mobsters
19:35:58  <NGC3982> Or galactic events
19:36:13  <NGC3982> "Cannot deliver goods to station. Town evaporated."
19:38:22  <Kjetil_> "Umbrella corporations HQ bombed. Company president killed."
19:38:42  <andythenorth> how do I strip all .orig files from a src dir?
19:38:54  <Alberth> rm *.orig  ?
19:39:03  <andythenorth> needs to recurse
19:39:23  <andythenorth> it's deeply nested python packages :P
19:39:32  <SpComb> find
19:39:38  <andythenorth> "flat is better", except in python packages :P
19:39:41  <Alberth> find src -type f -name "*.orig" -exec rm "{}" ";"
19:39:56  * andythenorth tests
19:40:05  <Alberth> or somewhat safer:  find src -type f -name "*.orig" | xargs rm
19:40:31  <andythenorth> worked, thanks
19:40:38  <Alberth> (safer as in you can leave out the "| xargs rm" part :D
19:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> what's "safer" with leaving out xargs than with leaving out -exec?
19:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the second version fails with spaces
19:42:36  <Eddi|zuHause> needs -print0 | xargs -0
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20:05:58  <michi_cc> Alberth: How about just passing -delete to find? No problem with spaces, strange chars or whatever.
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20:07:32  <Alberth> useful to know, thanks
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20:26:55  <Muxy> Hello here
20:29:12  <Muxy> Yexo: i put some stuff for NoAI VehicleOld, if you have some time, can you, please, take a look at it ?
20:31:19  <andythenorth> Friday night, and andythenorth is doing work
20:31:21  <andythenorth> which is good
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20:58:10  <Yexo> Muxy: later this weekend
21:18:25  <andythenorth> bed
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21:38:22  <Terkhen> good night
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22:17:13  <frosch123> night
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23:33:11  <AsteconnL> Greetings all! My name isn't Dave
23:35:58  <V453000> hi Dave
23:36:08  <TrueBrain> is it John?
23:36:26  <AsteconnL> Negative
23:36:31  <TrueBrain> Ben?
23:36:34  <TrueBrain> Steve?
23:36:40  <TrueBrain> owh, this will take a while; how long do you have?
23:36:41  <AsteconnL> Nope
23:36:53  <AsteconnL> I'm likely to be awake until 4am BST o.o
23:36:54  <V453000> I just feel like in a lunatic asylum where a new insane person comes and introduces themself ... especially saying "My name isnt..."
23:37:24  <TrueBrain> I think it is Dave, and it is just to make us burst our heads
23:38:41  <AsteconnL> You would be incorrect, sir!
23:42:05  <Mazur> Liar.
23:42:18  <Mazur> Is rail in reverse.
23:42:39  <Mazur> I'm a little airplane.
23:43:43  <AsteconnL> Greetings Mazur
23:44:11  <AsteconnL> Depending on the target of your initial statement you are either correct or incorrect.
23:45:00  <Wakou> Is there any news about 32bpp? the game is not as good any more.
23:45:20  <Wakou> How do i regress my install to when it worked?
23:48:26  <Mazur> Radical way: remove the lot and reinstall.  Less radical: identify which newGRFs are 32npp and remove those.
23:50:58  <AsteconnL> Gentlemen - I am struggling to decide upon a locomotive for my network, needed for a short passenger linem, with UKRS2. I have narrowed it down to the choice of either the 0-6-0 Austerity, the 2-6-2 Ivatt, the 4-4-2 suburban, or the 0-6-0 Pannier. I could use the Railcar, but it's not terribly reliable
23:51:35  *** AsteconnL is now known as Asteconn
23:53:44  <Mazur> You play with breakdowns?
23:54:13  <Mazur> Sorry, hardly any masochists around here.
23:57:36  <Asteconn> Yes. Yes I do :D
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23:59:40  <Melkyore> I hate not asking about asking a question
23:59:44  <Melkyore> anyway

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