Log for #openttd on 29th September 2012:
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08:00:34  <andythenorth> bonjour
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08:03:10  <Rubidium> salut andy
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08:30:35  <andythenorth> hmm
08:30:54  <andythenorth> HEQS has 7 trams that refit to different lengths with cargo specific graphics
08:31:19  <andythenorth> there are 5 body styles
08:31:22  <andythenorth> and 3 lengths
08:31:28  <andythenorth> @calc 7 * 5 * 3
08:31:28  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 105
08:31:36  <andythenorth> @calc 105-98
08:31:36  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 7
08:31:55  <andythenorth> to provide autorefit, I need to add 98 trams to the buy menu
08:32:20  <andythenorth> does that sound worth writing generated code for?
08:32:33  * andythenorth considers converting HEQS to nml + python generation
08:33:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like it needs some reduction first
08:33:18  <andythenorth> could eliminate some body styles
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08:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> remind me again why exactly length refits and autorefit fail?
08:34:19  <andythenorth> because player can set invalid orders
08:34:24  <andythenorth> so it breaks the UI
08:34:29  <andythenorth> which is unacceptable
08:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> how is the case for invalid orders?
08:34:53  <andythenorth> player can set an order to refit from subtype 1 to subtype 2
08:35:01  <andythenorth> but in the case of HEQS that's not permitted
08:35:08  <andythenorth> as vehicles may not change length in stations
08:35:17  <andythenorth> as that can cause asserts :P
08:35:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so tell him he shouldn't do that?
08:35:26  <andythenorth> how?
08:35:34  <andythenorth> there's no UI for that
08:35:41  <Eddi|zuHause> in the donotreadme?
08:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> in the additional purchase text: "refits to different lengths. autorefit cannot change length"
08:36:38  <andythenorth> sounds like a source of bug reports to me :)
08:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that would be a killer argument for _any_ feature ever...
08:38:29  <andythenorth> ho
08:38:41  <andythenorth> well lots of features don't have this problem :)
08:39:22  <FLHerne> User idiocy should never be a case against cool features :P
08:39:48  <FLHerne> Unless the set really is stupid...
08:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: like, be able to change newgrfs mid-game? :)
08:40:19  * FLHerne has complained about UKRS2 refitting-one-way-but-not-the-other a couple of times now :-(
08:40:27  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Naturally
08:40:36  * FLHerne re-enabled that one immediately :P
08:40:51  <andythenorth> user idiocy?
08:41:22  <FLHerne> Sometimes it works, if you're stupid enough not to ask whether what you're doing will break, that's your fault :P
08:41:22  <andythenorth> this feature is equivalent to giving someone a gun that fires backwards instead of forwards
08:41:41  <andythenorth> that's total bollocks
08:41:57  <FLHerne> If it breaks anyway and you lose a few years of savegame, and you moan, about it, it's also your fault :P
08:42:08  <planetmaker> FLHerne, the problem is that even the most experienced users cannot tell what will happen unless they know the full code of all newgrfs involved
08:42:08  <andythenorth> bye
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08:42:28  <FLHerne> Obviously, unbreakable newgrfs would be better ;-)
08:43:07  <planetmaker> newgrfs aren't exactly broken. The way they can interact. Or with the game. And the only safe way thus is "don't change"
08:43:15  <planetmaker> or you need to remove newgrf features
08:43:26  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Yes, but I can usually assume that (say) adding a straight roadset probably won't kill everything :P
08:43:29  <planetmaker> or implement sandboxes for newgrfs
08:43:39  <FLHerne> Someday, it probably will. That's life :-(
08:43:47  <planetmaker> FLHerne, yes. But you cannot say whether a set is just that or does more
08:43:52  <FLHerne> planetmaker: That would be neat :-)
08:44:02  <planetmaker> for instance it will easily also screw up prices
08:44:09  <planetmaker> which is not fatal, but well
08:44:21  <FLHerne> Surely the game could be made to check what NewGRFs do?
08:44:35  <planetmaker> but could in the worst case also disable other newgrfs, if a 3rd is (not) present or so
08:44:53  <planetmaker> in principle yes. Practically that doesn't (yet?) exist
08:45:44  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Since when have people written simple newgrfs that interfere with other ones to that extent? :P
08:46:01  <FLHerne> Also, why is it scenario_developer that enables it?
08:46:15  <planetmaker> FLHerne, they do that. For as long as I can think back in TTD terms
08:46:39  <FLHerne> Surely the number of broken scenarios would suggest that making scenarios with newgrf-swapping is a bad plan? :P
08:46:49  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Which ones?
08:46:51  <planetmaker> FLHerne, if you create a scenario, spent hours of work on the map and then realize that you miss the one and only landscape / vehicle / whatever set
08:47:01  * FLHerne should probably avoid those :P
08:47:22  <FLHerne> Add newgrf-agnostic scenarios then :P
08:47:29  <planetmaker> that's being planned
08:47:34  <FLHerne> I saw ;-)
08:47:44  <planetmaker>
08:47:58  <FLHerne> Industries might be tricky :-)
08:47:59  <planetmaker>
08:48:08  <planetmaker> for instance, they're difficult
08:48:34  <planetmaker> and they're likely to break. E.g. you have FIRS. You add another industry set. FIRS disables itself. Map is broken due to suddenly missing FIRS
08:48:42  <planetmaker> common scenario when changing NewGRFs :-)
08:49:18  <FLHerne> planetmaker: I meant for newgrf-independent scenarios ;-)
08:49:34  <FLHerne> Removing them ingame would never make sense :P
08:49:43  <planetmaker> I know... I was still answering your previous question for an example
08:50:27  <FLHerne> Mmmph
08:50:35  * FLHerne wanders off to do other things
08:50:44  <FLHerne> Bye :-)
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08:54:16  <Wolf01> moin
08:54:33  <planetmaker> FLHerne, just to be sure: "we" like the option just as well, to change the things which go. There simply is not (yet) a way to know the impact
08:54:51  <FLHerne> True.
08:55:09  * FLHerne *really* wanders off to do other things :D
08:55:10  <planetmaker> e.g. a sandbox could be implemented to check the changes and only allow them, if non of the game objects changes properties
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08:56:39  <Wolf01> q: it would be difficult to enable multi touch support on OTTD?
08:57:21  <planetmaker> a: depends on the definiton of "multi touch". And probably the platform you talk about. In principle it's not a game changer and just needs expanding some input drivers
08:57:38  <planetmaker> Thus it's a relative uninvasive thing, I recon
08:58:09  <Wolf01> 2 touches should be enough, I've evil plans about it
08:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of reading library documentation involved, i presume
08:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you need 4 touches if you want to simulate right-click and ctrl
09:01:12  <Wolf01> not if I put ctrl on a toolbar and make it toggleable
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09:02:18  <LordAro> mornings all
09:02:29  <Wolf01> hi LordAro
09:02:38  <Eddi|zuHause> do we even have special meaning for ctrl+right-click?
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09:04:37  <planetmaker> Wolf01, putting ctrl on the toolbar is... surely better than not having access to it at all. But still a bad user experience imho (I use ctrl all the time)
09:06:32  <Rubidium> oh come one... every decent device with touch screen has at least one button
09:07:20  <Zuu> no idea about iPhone, but on Android you could use eg. the volume buttons for doing things in an application.
09:07:34  <Rubidium> and it might not even be detrimental to the playability of OpenTTD on the devices
09:07:44  <Wolf01> yeah, I have 4, the on screen keyboard one, volume up-down and alt-tab/win-L, but the only one very accessible is the alt tab one
09:07:50  <Rubidium> i.e. turning off the device doesn't hurt playability that much ;)
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09:22:22  <Wolf01> hello Alberth
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09:22:47  <Alberth> hello :)
09:23:34  <planetmaker> hi Alberth
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10:04:26  <deXM96> I have zbase baseset enabled
10:04:32  <deXM96> I see nice graphics in the title screen
10:04:41  <deXM96> but in-game I only see nice graphics in buildings, etc
10:04:53  <deXM96> but the landscape is still the old graphics set
10:05:01  <deXM96> what could be the problem?
10:05:08  <deXM96> (openttd 1.2.2)
10:05:40  <Rubidium> what NewGRFs do you use?
10:05:52  <deXM96> some opengfx+ stuff only
10:05:54  <deXM96> should I disable them?
10:06:16  <Rubidium> probably since they 'overwrite' the 32bpp graphics from zbase
10:06:23  <deXM96> ok, let's try
10:06:57  <deXM96> nope
10:07:03  <deXM96> disabled all newgrfs
10:07:27  <Rubidium> and then started a new game? Or did you load a savegame?
10:07:40  <deXM96> loaded a save, I just noticed that they're still enabled
10:07:42  <deXM96> gotta try again
10:07:47  <planetmaker> in order to get most 32bpp, you currently probably want zBase ogfx+trains and maybe egrvts2. All in their nightly versions
10:08:10  <planetmaker> and all in a new game only. you can't undo that in existing savegames
10:08:16  <Rubidium> when you load a savegame the NewGRF configuration from the savegame is used, not the one you configure in the intro window (for new games)
10:08:17  <deXM96> ach much better
10:08:43  <deXM96> damnit just started a new game and got an excellent map
10:08:51  <deXM96> now I gotta start a new one
10:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause> you can export the map as heightmap, and start a new game with that
10:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (will have different town and industry positions, though)
10:11:06  <deXM96> planetmaker: can I get ogfx+trains and egrvts2 from the content download or get them manually?
10:11:28  * Alberth is tempted to answer 'yes'
10:11:51  <Zuu> ogfx+trains is at bananas. Unsure about egrvts2.
10:11:54  <Eddi|zuHause> not the development version
10:12:05  <deXM96> there's eGVRTS 1.0
10:12:06  <planetmaker> deXM96, non of the required versions for 32bpp support is on bananas
10:12:10  <Zuu> Though, there is probably a ogfx+trains nightly version that is newer than the version on bananas.
10:12:11  <deXM96> that's not what I want, is it
10:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause> just the previous release, which does not have 32bpp yet
10:12:31  <planetmaker> also the ogfx+trains with 32bpp is not there yet
10:12:36  <deXM96> ok
10:12:43  <Alberth> just download the nightly, for a bleeding edge experience :)
10:12:51  <planetmaker>
10:12:56  <deXM96> bleeding edge is where I wanna be :)
10:13:19  <planetmaker> just make sure to never "cleanup" your newgrf list ;-)
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10:15:13  <deXM96> can someone find me a link to eGVRTS2?
10:15:53  <andythenorth> I will sing a happy song if this gets added to trunk:
10:15:54  <andythenorth>
10:16:25  <andythenorth> because this looks a bit odd
10:18:46  <planetmaker> I wonder whether OpenTTD should behave differently, if I send a train to a new station with "autorefit and load available". Currently most likely the train will not load anything
10:19:07  <deXM96> planetmaker: that annoys the hell out of me too
10:19:43  <deXM96> trying to get eg. steel from one place, drop it off at a factory and pick up goods
10:20:05  <deXM96> ends up in empty trains
10:20:26  <planetmaker> yes. Unless you send it to each station to specifically pick up each cargo once
10:20:42  <andythenorth> autorefit (awesome idea) has issues :|
10:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you mean like add "demand" for any autorefitable cargo?
10:21:35  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, maybe. I really wonder what the right thing would be to do
10:21:56  <planetmaker> I know occasions where that would be unwanted, too
10:22:14  <andythenorth> did we discover what the enormous bug was with autorefit?
10:22:23  <andythenorth> we played an MP nightly game where it just didn't work
10:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> autorefit is just a poor replacement for shunting :)
10:23:59  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am concluding same :)
10:24:23  <andythenorth> it's a nice idea though
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10:27:01  <planetmaker> Nah, I think autorefit is great. It's also not fundamentally wrong in any way. But it's complicated in some regards
10:28:35  <andythenorth> it's not helpful that newgrf can choose to allow / disallow the refit
10:28:41  <andythenorth> according to arbitrary conditions
10:28:49  <andythenorth> if the cargo is a valid cargo, the vehicle should allow it
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10:37:10  <andythenorth> that also rules out vehicles significantly changing graphics per cargo type
10:37:27  <andythenorth> and refits with subtypes
10:41:22  <planetmaker> hm, yes. Maybe that'd be great
10:41:28  * Jake starts pondering how shunting might work in-game.
10:42:04  <Jake> I need to stop having these ideas when I know nothing whatsoever about coding...
10:42:15  <planetmaker> Jake, add a newgrf flag which says "I can be used in shunting operation", add vehicles graphically not reversion when all vehicles in the consist fulfill that condition. done
10:42:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Jules Verne didn't know anything whatsoever about rocket science or submarine propulsion either
10:44:08  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I keep looking for an extra property that lets 'body type' be specified for a vehicle :P
10:44:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you mean... composing vehicles of chassais and cargo sprite(s)?
10:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's different to "subtype" then, if it changes on refits only?
10:44:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it wouldn't change with cargo refit
10:45:04  <andythenorth> there would have to be another gui
10:45:09  <andythenorth> I think it's a wrong approach tbh
10:45:20  <andythenorth> rv-wagons is just simpler
10:45:36  <andythenorth> as is "don't bother with complicated ideas like regearing" etc
10:46:17  <andythenorth> using subtypes for liveries might be sane, but I think another GUI for that *is* valid :P
10:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it sure is valid, just don't try to cram everything in one GRF
10:48:01  <andythenorth> ?
10:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the "regearing" thing etc.
10:48:44  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: (new topic) what is needed to get your buy menu patch included?
10:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a dev that commits it?
10:49:17  <andythenorth> :|
10:59:54  <Terkhen> hello
11:00:22  <andythenorth> lo Terkhen
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11:14:23  <Sahtor> Hey everyone. I posted a new thread in scenario forum. I think it got stuck in spam filter
11:15:04  <Terkhen> hi Sahtor
11:19:48  <Sahtor> hi Terkhen. I'll wait here and repost if it got lost completely
11:20:07  <andythenorth> there is no spam filter afaik
11:20:48  <Sahtor> some pre-moderation was my guess. I dont read forum notices usually :)
11:23:59  <Terkhen> Sahtor: I'm sorry but I'm not a moderator at the forums, I can't help you with this
11:24:07  <Terkhen> but to my knowledge there is no such spam filter
11:24:12  <Sahtor> ok
11:24:24  <Rubidium> actually there is a spam filter on the forum
11:24:38  <Rubidium> everything deemed suspect needs moderation
11:25:00  <Rubidium> however, I think nobody in here except orudge has moderation rights on that subforum
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11:58:15  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24560 trunk/src/lang/czech.txt (2012-09-28 17:45:09 UTC)
11:58:16  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
11:58:17  <DorpsGek> czech - 9 changes by Eskymak
11:59:09  <planetmaker> \o/ DorpsGek
11:59:44  <TrueBrain> also made it reports in
11:59:46  <TrueBrain> might be useful
12:00:13  <Terkhen> :)
12:00:24  <planetmaker> yup. Might leave .notice then ;-) Too many channels anyway
12:00:33  <TrueBrain> hehe
12:00:40  <TrueBrain> 4 channels get a report on a commit now, so yeah :P
12:00:53  <planetmaker> seeing it in three is enough ;-)
12:01:52  <TrueBrain> 2 too many if you ask me :P
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12:03:29  <Alberth> +1
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12:24:36  <Terkhen> I agree :P
12:26:49  * LordAro currently has 5
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12:28:07  <Alberth> 5 channels with openttd commit messages ???
12:29:28  <planetmaker> Probably I have too many channels open... ;-)
12:30:42  <LordAro> no, just 5 channels ;)
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13:38:05  <LordAro> TrueBrain/DorpsGek/whoever: so have we finally got the CIA off our backs? :)
13:38:37  <Alberth> nah, they are just hiding better
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13:45:15  <TrueBrain> LordAro: check their website
13:45:21  <TrueBrain> what was it .. or something?
13:45:31  <TrueBrain> you never have to worry about the CIA ever again :D
13:45:45  <LordAro> yay :)
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13:49:45  <Terkhen> what was CIA supposed to do besides announcing commits?
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13:53:01  <KnogleAFK> Watch illegal activities?
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14:02:41  <Elukka> regime change?
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14:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> The Bot is dead, long live The Bot!
14:16:07  <Zuu> Time to play the swedish pop song about a bot? :-p
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14:18:55  <andythenorth> if cargo subtypes were refitted in a separate menu, would that solve the issue?
14:19:08  <andythenorth> the new menu would be available for depot refits only, not in station orders
14:19:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that won't work, as subtypes depend on the cargo.
14:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> when changing cargo, you must be able to change subtype as well.
14:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the bad thing is, i probably have that song in my collection somewhere
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14:24:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it would be a two step gui (imagine two panes, side by side)
14:24:46  <andythenorth> choose cargo -> choose subtype
14:24:59  <andythenorth> would make the refit menu more usable too
14:25:06  <andythenorth> by reducing the insane number of choices
14:25:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that was proposed previously
14:25:24  <andythenorth> using AV8 with FIRS, a plane has 124 refits :P
14:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what i mean is: it doesn't make sense to make this "depot only"
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14:28:08  <andythenorth> because...?
14:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because subtype MUST change when changing cargo, so you would effectively forbid refitting at stations
14:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the new subtype may have the same name or number, but they have no correlation
14:29:16  <andythenorth> yup ok
14:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
14:29:59  <andythenorth> I'm running out of ideas for solutions :D
14:30:01  <andythenorth> bye Eddi|zuHause
14:33:47  <__ln__>
14:34:52  <Elukka> yes please
14:35:26  <Elukka> i was five when hale-bopp appeared
14:35:29  <Elukka> i still remember it though
14:35:43  <Elukka> a bewildering amount of people older than me don't
14:35:51  <andythenorth> I was 18
14:35:53  <Elukka> i guess they never look up
14:37:38  <Rubidium> Zuu: but wasn't Anna a policing bot? Instead of just an announcing bot?
14:37:59  <Zuu> It was a bot that ban people so yea.
14:38:33  <Elukka> there's like a second moon that's blue and has a tail! how do people not notice
14:38:57  <Rubidium> god's opaque sky filter
15:01:40  <andythenorth> god's opaque brain filter :P
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16:40:42  <andythenorth> quiet eh?
16:41:04  <LordAro> indeed
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16:43:27  <LordAro> what you up to?
16:43:40  <andythenorth> contemplating napping
16:43:46  <andythenorth> which won't be possible
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16:47:31  * andythenorth has been tweaking FISH 2
16:47:38  <andythenorth> but is a bit blocked by the SETX sadness
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17:20:04  <Zuu> Oh shiny, the oil rig used in the lorry tutorial just closed down. :-p
17:20:22  <Zuu> I guess it should use a NewGRF to stop industries from closing down. :-)
17:20:38  <Zuu> But that requires re-making the scenario :-(
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17:21:36  <andythenorth> speak to your new friend Terkhen about scenario format :)
17:21:42  <Zuu> A work-around cold be to give the GS a rich uncle and re-build closed down industries.
17:34:57  <LordAro> Or dynamic industry selection ;)
17:37:01  <andythenorth> 2300 pax enough for a ferry?
17:38:30  <LordAro> just about... ;)
17:45:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24561 trunk/src/lang/estonian.txt (2012-09-29 17:45:09 UTC)
17:45:17  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18  <DorpsGek> estonian - 3 changes by Jaanus
17:48:05  <Zuu> LordAro: The TutorialAI was totally dynamic, but that have the risk of failing in some cases. For that reason people have suggested that the GS Tutorial should use a pre-designed scenario. Something I've come to agree with even if its cool with a tutorial that can work on any map.
17:50:02  <Zuu> Hmm, now I need to publish a new SuperLib version in order to publish a new Tutorial version and could then also publish a new CluelessPlus that make use of a few fixes in SuperLib. :-)
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18:56:16  <andythenorth> ach
18:56:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Hoyo
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18:57:14  <andythenorth> the appearance of the buy menu is not that important anyway ;P
18:57:14  <FLHerne> What needs 'fixing' prior to FISH 2 release?
18:57:22  <andythenorth> buy menu
18:57:27  <andythenorth> but meh
18:57:43  * FLHerne needs to stop dropping into IRC conversations at stupid times
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19:05:37  <Alberth> the big problem is to decide when it is not a stupid time :p
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19:24:59  <andythenorth> we could write a bot to help with that
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19:38:23  <Alberth> while true: print "now is a stupid time"; end
19:39:04  <Alberth> it might give false positives :p
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19:55:00  <Zuu> Phew, enough releases for now. :-)
20:10:12  <Alberth> your tutorial has too many strings :p
20:15:45  <Alberth> Zuu: what's the oldest stable release newer than r23837 ?
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20:16:23  <Zuu> Too many strings as in being a problem for OpenTTD?
20:16:55  <Alberth> no, too many strings as a problem for me translating them :)
20:17:12  <Zuu> Ah, yea, I wouldn't fancy trying to translate it :-)
20:17:36  <Alberth> I do it anyway :)
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20:18:43  <Alberth> but an hour later I am only at line 33 of 158 :)
20:19:12  <Alberth> so I am not going to finish it today :p
20:19:32  <Zuu> heh yea, I would guess it will take some time to translate it.
20:20:50  <Alberth> well, I also change the English strings a bit here and there, so it takes a little bit more time.
20:21:09  <Alberth> which is why I asked about the stable release
20:21:33  <Zuu> Is r23837 the introduction of Game Scirpts?
20:21:38  <Zuu> Scripts*
20:22:50  <Alberth> STR_ERROR_OLD_OPENTTD :Your OpenTTD version is too old to run the tutorial.{}{}The minimum required version is r23837. <-- you wrote it, I was hoping you'd know that :p
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20:23:08  <Alberth> I was thinking to add a number of stable release as well
20:23:09  <Zuu> It should work with 1.2.x
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20:23:29  <Alberth> ok, thanks
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20:23:57  <Zuu> I would have to look up exactly what r23837 does, but I guess its a change relativly close after the introduction of GS in trunk.
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20:26:14  <Alberth> @commit 23837
20:26:14  <DorpsGek> Alberth: Commit by rubidium :: r23837 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2012-01-22 17:42:03 UTC)
20:26:15  <DorpsGek> Alberth: -Feature [FS#4994]: [NoGo] Allow querying orders of vehicles
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20:45:27  <FLHerne> @ports
20:45:27  <DorpsGek> FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
20:46:02  *** Sahtor [] has quit [Quit: Sahtor]
20:53:21  <FLHerne> Is this a useful place to ask about port-forwarding?
20:53:28  * FLHerne is a bit stumped :-(
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20:56:42  <Alberth> other than the question whether you need port-forwarding?  not really :)
20:57:31  <Alberth> each router/modem/firewall has its own way of configuring, there are no general recipes that work everywhere
20:58:41  <Alberth> btw you only need it (in general) when serving MP games, most firewalls are configured to let all outbound traffic through
21:00:18  <FLHerne> Well, all the routers seem to be set up right
21:00:35  <FLHerne> I can replace the modem with another computer, and connect to the server
21:00:50  <FLHerne> But it still doesn't work when I plug it in :-(
21:01:12  <FLHerne> I checked my ISP's site, they claim not to block those ports...
21:03:29  <Alberth> you know most modems also have a firewall built in, right?
21:04:32  <FLHerne> Poked mine, claims to have the next router set as outside the firewall
21:04:48  <FLHerne> Oh, it turns up on the server list now, that's progress
21:04:55  <FLHerne> Dunno what I changed :P
21:05:44  <glx> you try to connect from same network ?
21:06:04  <FLHerne> Still dunno what changed, but it claims to be open now :-) . Sorry to bother you... :P
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21:06:48  <glx> some routers don't allow computer from inside to connect via the outside address
21:11:19  <FLHerne> Well, it seems to work now :-) Template-replace seems to be entirely MP-incompatible though :-(
21:13:09  <FLHerne> Anyone want to play a CDist match?
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21:51:57  <Terkhen> good night
21:52:40  <FLHerne> Terkhen: Night :-)
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22:05:22  <Zuu> Hmm, there appear to be no advanced setting to turn of aircraft range.. and Av8 have no parameter for that. I guess I should soon add aircraft range awareness to CluelessPlus then.
22:06:39  <Zuu> Now it throws away lots of money on constructing airports that it then removes because there is no aircraft to use it.
22:06:59  <Zuu> Or rather because  the aircraft it picks is unable to use it.
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22:19:52  <Devedse> Hey guys, I was wondering why the maximum size of a map isn't editable in the openttd.cfg? Isn't it just based on increasing an integer?
22:20:22  <Rubidium> how did you determine it isn't editable in the config file?
22:21:36  <Devedse> reading the wiki :)
22:21:49  <Devedse> it says the max is 2048x2048
22:22:12  <Rubidium> oh, max in that way
22:22:19  <Devedse> yeah
22:22:24  <Rubidium> there are some issues with overflows
22:23:17  <FLHerne> There's a patch for that, right?
22:23:21  <Rubidium> if I remember correctly and nothing has changed since
22:23:25  <Devedse> Are there any plans to add that in a future version? Or will you just keep it at the patch?
22:24:21  <Devedse> also, is it possible to modify such things through newgrf?
22:25:26  <Rubidium> FLHerne: yes, similarly there is a patch that changes the NewGRF limit... however at least one instance of it asserts in MP if you use too much NewGRFs
22:25:30  <Rubidium> Devedse: no and no
22:26:04  <Devedse> (just out of interest) why? :)
22:26:10  <FLHerne> The only time I ever ran out of RAM on this computer was with that patch :P
22:26:37  <Rubidium> FLHerne: the other instances disable the 'feature' of more NewGRFs in MP; I wonder what happens when you load a savegame with too many NewGRFs
22:26:39  * FLHerne doesn't use it any more, but does still have MHL :-)
22:27:11  <FLHerne> Rubidium: Surely it should be able to neatly fail? :P
22:27:18  <Rubidium> Devedse: because I haven't seen a fully developed 2048x2048 map that's still smooth running
22:27:31  <glx> 2048x2048 is just too big
22:27:32  <FLHerne> Haven't tried (or needed) a newgrf-increasing patch though
22:27:33  <Devedse> ah
22:27:56  <Devedse> If you add "much" trains to a 2048 map will it start lagging?
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22:28:28  <glx> just add few boats
22:28:29  <Rubidium> even at 512x512 people seem to have such problems
22:28:47  <FLHerne> Devedse: Depends on your computer, but mostly yes at some point :P
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22:30:11  <Devedse> :)
22:30:25  <Devedse> I haven't had much problems yet but then again, I haven't had more then 200 trains on 1 map
22:30:45  <Rubidium> so why do you need a map larger than 2048x2048?
22:31:00  <Devedse> I just like to create long and big train networks
22:31:10  <Rubidium> for 200 trains?
22:31:13  <Devedse> yes
22:31:19  <glx> try 2048x64 then :)
22:31:22  <Devedse> :P
22:32:18  <Devedse> I wonder what cpu the world runs on, even with 100's of thousands of trains I notice barely no lag :o
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22:32:29  <Devedse> barely any*
22:33:08  <Rubidium> it doesn't use OpenTTD's model
22:33:40  <Devedse> ah
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22:34:01  <glx> lag depends on countries ;)
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22:35:40  <Devedse> :P
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22:36:39  <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:38:51  <Devedse> lol, i started a server a few days ago and connected 2 city's with a few busses
22:39:13  <Devedse> they are 200k population both now
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22:43:41  <Devedse> how big can a 2048x2048 save file get (just a guess)
22:45:17  <Kylie> Devedse: you may want to use trams in the future
22:45:32  <Devedse> Kylie, what do you mean?
22:45:40  <glx> 37M uncompressed for map only
22:45:45  <Kylie> Devedse: also, a few buses are not enough. station rating may be low
22:46:05  <glx> then add towns, vehicles and other objects
22:46:28  <Devedse> I've never used trams yet, are they in the "vanilla" openttd or do you need newgrf for it
22:47:19  <Kylie> well Devedse if 2 cities which are now 200,000 expanded due to your transit addition, then 30 people each bus will never be ssatisfied unless you add more and more vehicles
22:47:42  <Kylie> Devedse: newgrf. if you dont have it, then you'll have to use rail
22:47:46  <Devedse> I know, but it was just to make some profit before I would really start playing
22:48:01  <Kylie> Devedse: oih good
22:48:06  <Devedse> I just started up a server which I would let run 24/7 so me and my friends can play on it
22:50:23  <Devedse> What is a nice tram set to play around with?
22:53:37  <Kylie> Devedse: well you c3ant add newgrfs when in game
22:53:43  <Devedse> I know
22:53:48  <Devedse> But just to try it out in a single player game
22:54:02  <Kylie> and uh, i like the german one, i forget the name
22:55:49  <FLHerne> I quite like BATS and HEQS (the latter has freight trams only)
23:03:47  <Devedse> Does anyone remember the key you had to press to clone a vehicle?
23:04:27  <Devedse> nvm found it
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23:26:11  <Devedse> Is it normal that you can't upgrade a bridge from a normal road vehicle bridge to a road/tram bridge unless you select another type of bridge?
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