Log for #openttd on 27th October 2012:
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00:42:55  <BadBrett> automation sure is fun when working with nml
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01:05:06  <supermop> hi
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01:21:40  <BadBrett> hi supermop
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01:45:28  <supermop> hows it going?
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06:16:52  <andythenorth> que tal
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06:21:01  <andythenorth> what a long and tedious thread about economy
06:22:19  <Flygon> All you need to know about the economy: If it helped kill Soviet Russia, it can help kill anything
06:29:34  <andythenorth> In Soviet Russia, economy kills you
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06:35:24  <Flygon> Hahaha
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06:38:20  <roidal> hi
06:39:00  <roidal> if i start a multiplayer server is there a way to disable some vehicles?
06:39:45  <roidal> for example all monorails
06:41:44  <Flygon> I know that could be done with NewGRF's, but beyond that... can't really help more x:
06:43:36  <roidal> ok, thank you
06:45:13  <Flygon> What sort of NewGRF's are you using?
06:45:40  <Flygon> I know you could load the 2CC trainset and monorail gets replaced by Metro, but I doubt that's what you wannt
06:46:32  <roidal> until now i don't use newgrf's
06:46:56  <Flygon> Ahh
06:47:01  <andythenorth> opengfx + trains might do it
06:47:03  <andythenorth> with parameters
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06:47:59  <roidal> andythenorth: which parameter?
06:48:01  <roidal> ah
06:48:03  <roidal> you mean
06:48:10  <roidal> compile a ohne opengfx set?
06:48:14  <roidal> own*
06:51:54  <andythenorth> roidal: got 'opengfx+ trains' ?
06:52:06  <andythenorth> there are parameters, you set them in the newgrf window
06:52:24  <andythenorth> looks like it will do what you need
06:52:40  <roidal> ah
06:52:47  <roidal> sry, missunderstood you
07:00:35  <roidal> yes, that looks good
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07:11:45  * andythenorth considers a 'race' MP GS
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07:12:54  <andythenorth> every month, players have to connect two locations
07:13:07  <andythenorth> and 'race' a vehicle from A to B
07:13:21  <andythenorth> GS awards points to whoever gets there fastest
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07:30:28  <NGC3982> Morning.
07:30:36  <NGC3982> God help my head.
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08:22:58  <roidal> and gamesettings are not saved in the save-files?
08:23:14  <roidal> so if i change the settings in a singleplayer game and then load a multiplayer game
08:23:41  <roidal> they are changed in the multiplayergame too?
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08:43:17  <andythenorth> most gamesettings travel with save
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08:49:47  <roidal> ok
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08:56:39  <roidal> is there a way
08:57:01  <roidal> to give the client the rcon-password so i can change settings on the server from the client with the gui?
09:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no
09:02:16  <andythenorth> hi Eddi|zuHause
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09:02:37  <Eddi|zuHause> ooooh... snow
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09:05:07  <andythenorth> in FIRS? Or irl? :P
09:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> where the pizza comes from
09:07:54  <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, i never order pizza)
09:08:35  <Flygon> Snow comes from a Pizzaria?
09:08:52  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: obviously from the pizza tree ->
09:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm a "visualized vegetarian". i eat everything that i can visualize growing on trees. :p
09:10:31  <andythenorth> where is that picture about 'real life' with the guy looking out of the window?
09:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> on ?
09:11:56  <andythenorth> couldn't find it there
09:11:57  <andythenorth> nvm
09:12:17  <Eddi|zuHause>
09:13:10  <andythenorth> ho ho
09:13:21  <andythenorth> thanks
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09:14:35  <Flygon> Reality sucks, the time aspect of it really needs patching
09:14:53  <Flygon> But we lost the source code sometime around the creation of matter
09:15:07  <Flygon> And it's proven difficult to disassemble manually
09:15:41  <andythenorth> so...FIRS economies
09:15:54  <andythenorth> depending on economy, some properties of an industry will vary
09:16:10  <andythenorth> is that an intrinsic property of each industry?
09:16:19  <andythenorth> or is it a configuration item from the environment?
09:16:37  <planetmaker> good morning
09:16:42  <andythenorth> i.e. one file, with all industries?
09:16:51  <andythenorth> or each industry knows how to behave in economy x?
09:16:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth, every month is very quick. but yearly of every 6 months... maybe
09:17:11  <planetmaker> might be quite fun :-)
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09:19:17  <andythenorth> the way I approach OO, I'd rather have the properties encapsulated in each industry
09:19:26  <andythenorth> then things are less likely to blow up, and it's more portable
09:19:29  <andythenorth> information hiding
09:19:31  <roidal> schade
09:19:49  <andythenorth> but it's more work with code, have to modify each industry instead of one giant table :P
09:20:15  <planetmaker> not sure that it is more work. Just more distributed
09:20:44  <andythenorth> it avoids 'everything is a giant ball of string' imo
09:20:57  <andythenorth> this might be bikeshedding, not sure
09:21:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what about defining a "mode" for each industry
09:21:11  <andythenorth> yes possibly
09:21:14  <planetmaker> this mode might involve production rates, acceptance and output
09:21:18  <planetmaker> maybe dates
09:21:33  <planetmaker> and the relates the mode to the economy mode of each industry
09:21:55  <planetmaker> so the mode for a particular industry could be the same in different economies (where it need not behave different)
09:22:41  <andythenorth> yes default behaviour is what I had in mind too
09:22:53  <andythenorth> if there's no change, no code needed
09:23:09  <planetmaker> hm, indeed. Mode 0 = default then
09:23:16  <planetmaker> didn't even mean that :D
09:24:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "Ai Weiwei's 'Gangnam Style' video was censored."
09:24:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ",,, in Germany"
09:30:57  <Flygon> ...what did they censor?
09:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole video is blocked on youtube
09:35:07  <Flygon> That's ridiculous
09:35:20  <Flygon> What would possibly be offensive about Gangnam style?
09:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> for "copyright" reasons
09:35:49  <Flygon> I say if it's aired on nationwide Australian TV during primetime during 'The Project', I say it's suitable for Germany :U
09:36:38  <Rubidium> Flygon: "sexy"?
09:36:42  <Flygon> (as well as a crapload of other TV shows)
09:37:20  <frosch123> every music video is blocked by default in germany
09:38:09  <__ln__> and germans never get annoyed by that?
09:38:18  <frosch123> the artist has to explicitly forbid the german usage rights authority to represent him
09:39:02  <Flygon> That's ludicrous
09:39:23  <planetmaker> quite
09:39:23  <frosch123> and the rights authority has not settled a deal with yt within 5 years or so
09:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: at least one GEMA-related petition passed the 50.000 petitors barrier
09:40:45  <andythenorth> ach, so I probably make some kind of 'EconomyConfig' class then
09:41:12  <Rubidium> the Belgian tv program Basta made a nice episode about the Belgian equivalent
09:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> not that any petition ever changed anything...
09:42:11  <Rubidium>
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09:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i heard of this show before. but i don't remember if i actually watched it
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09:49:38  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, it's in Flemmish/Dutch
10:02:54  <Fremen> Flemish *
10:08:47  <andythenorth> meh
10:09:08  <andythenorth> economy code: explicit disable of industry, or explicit enable?
10:09:12  * andythenorth bikeshedding
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10:10:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth, enable
10:10:27  <andythenorth> I just voted disable :P
10:10:35  <planetmaker> :D
10:10:41  <andythenorth> enable means it's easy for me to screw up and break chains
10:10:44  <andythenorth> by forgetting an industry
10:11:16  <planetmaker> with disable it's easy to disable an industry which is crucial for a chain ;-)
10:11:31  <andythenorth> that too
10:11:38  <andythenorth> who is our tester? :P
10:11:44  <planetmaker> but yes, does really matter. bikeshedding fits it very well
10:11:57  <planetmaker> I want it painted red!
10:12:09  <planetmaker> then you can place the nuke in it
10:12:21  <andythenorth> orange
10:12:29  <planetmaker> reddish-orange?
10:12:37  <andythenorth> 3 legged camel
10:12:46  <planetmaker> wtf? dromeda!
10:13:00  <andythenorth> is there a case for varying cargo at industries?  I think not
10:13:12  <andythenorth> ottd handles pretty well if a cargo is present or not
10:13:25  <andythenorth> but FIRS production code and info strings don't :P
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10:13:46  <planetmaker> strings don't. We'll need to adjust them
10:14:18  <planetmaker> But still, even if the cargo is not available, the industry will accept it
10:14:23  <planetmaker> that will be confusing
10:14:33  <planetmaker> or do I err that it won't show, if the cargo isn't defined?
10:14:37  <andythenorth> it wont' show
10:14:46  <andythenorth> that's one of the smartest bits of industry_cmd.cpp :)
10:14:54  <planetmaker> nice
10:14:57  <andythenorth> lot's of it is bloody awful, but whoever did that gets a prize
10:19:12  <andythenorth>
10:19:20  <andythenorth> what else might *industries* want to vary in economies?
10:19:27  <andythenorth> cargos will be handled separately
10:19:57  <andythenorth> location code and production code are definitely out of scope imo
10:23:52  <planetmaker> production code is touched already by production amount. And should do so also for secondaries imho. But that's a 2nd step when this is done as you described
10:24:32  <planetmaker> and... could graphics vary (if you feel bold and like drawing)?
10:24:49  <planetmaker> or additional / less layouts available
10:24:54  <planetmaker> better approach
10:25:09  <andythenorth> yes they could
10:25:18  <andythenorth> layouts could be conditional on an economy
10:25:52  <andythenorth> for example, in 'Holland' economy, all grain millls use windmill only :P
10:25:54  <planetmaker> that would even give us the option to modify looks however one would see fit
10:25:57  <planetmaker> exactly
10:26:21  <planetmaker> or in a mars or future tech version, no wind mills or so
10:26:24  <andythenorth> ha
10:26:27  <planetmaker> (or only?)
10:26:29  <andythenorth> grain mills on mars :P
10:26:45  <Rubidium> andythenorth: luckily you didn't say "Dutch" economy ;)
10:27:16  <andythenorth> :P
10:28:31  <Rubidium> although... to be fair, even in Holland not all mills were wind mills
10:29:06  <planetmaker> Holland 17th century: s/cotton farm/tulip farm/
10:29:18  <Rubidium>
10:29:19  <planetmaker> would be an interesting variation, too ;-)
10:29:32  <planetmaker> isn't that quite new, Rubidium ?
10:29:41  <andythenorth> there is a plan for watermill
10:29:48  <planetmaker> hm, no, seemingly
10:29:54  <andythenorth>
10:30:03  <andythenorth> not sure if I can detect river accurately enough
10:30:12  <Rubidium> planetmaker: in stellar time frames it is
10:30:16  <planetmaker> :D
10:30:18  <andythenorth> if anyone wants to try writing tile location code for it, I'll draw graphics :P
10:30:26  <planetmaker> I'll write that code
10:30:41  <andythenorth> ok :)
10:30:46  <Rubidium> although... 5 decades might be relatively young for mills
10:31:13  <andythenorth> planetmaker: might be worth looking how Yexo did the petrol station
10:31:23  <andythenorth> only locates next to roads
10:31:31  <planetmaker> yes... I wrote that code ;-)
10:31:32  <andythenorth> and chooses an appropriate layout to line up with road
10:31:36  <andythenorth> oh you did :)
10:31:45  <andythenorth> fine then
10:31:59  <andythenorth> if we can't detect rivers, I suggest extend spec
10:32:06  <planetmaker> I guess both of us did at one time, him and me
10:32:14  <andythenorth> he wrote the nfo equivalent
10:32:41  <planetmaker> I wrote most of nml location code, I think, at least the last template version
10:33:04  <planetmaker> spent weeks on it
10:33:21  <Rubidium> hand mill: 3000 BC, water mill: 1200 BC, wind mill: 100 AD, ship mill: 600 AD, tide mill: 1500 AD
10:33:27  <andythenorth> nuclear mill?
10:33:48  <Rubidium> ~ 1950
10:33:55  <andythenorth> planetmaker: there were so many cases in the nfo to handle for locations :)
10:34:05  <andythenorth> I had ~2 years to think up all those ;)
10:34:16  <planetmaker> they're all still there
10:34:20  <andythenorth> I know
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10:34:35  <planetmaker> and it's good to have some decision paths there
10:34:40  <planetmaker> makes for a bit variety
10:34:41  <andythenorth> I read them all when I improved town industry locations
10:34:46  <andythenorth> they're all well documented too
10:35:35  <planetmaker> yes, I spent lots of time on that, too ;-)
10:35:49  <planetmaker> But I know from my own experience that I forget what I did... so just for myself :-P
10:44:52  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the tile location code is still the cpp templates, right?
10:46:25  <andythenorth> yup
10:46:26  <planetmaker> he, we already have a water class check on a tile basis. We would just need to employ it
10:46:39  <andythenorth> np plans to change the tile location code any time soon, no benefit
10:46:57  <planetmaker> TILE_CHECK_WATERCLASS(name, class, yes, no)
10:47:20  <andythenorth> does the class find rivers?
10:47:27  <andythenorth> or would it also find canals?
10:47:30  <andythenorth> and coasts?
10:47:50  <planetmaker> coast is a separate check
10:48:20  <planetmaker> RIVER is a separate water class, though
10:48:30  <planetmaker> different from CANAL and SEA and NONE
10:49:01  <planetmaker> thus one would need make sure that tile is flat and class RIVER
10:49:13  <planetmaker> and possibly the adjacent tile, too (if it's a two-tile layout)
10:49:41  <planetmaker> thus I can only write the check when I know the layout :-)
10:50:07  <planetmaker> my idea for the layout is two-tile with building on land and the wheel on the water. so-to-speak
10:50:30  <andythenorth> will that block ships?
10:50:48  <andythenorth> I was thinking of a mill pond and mill channel to one side
10:50:51  <planetmaker> yes. it will become an industry tile
10:50:53  <andythenorth> hmm
10:50:55  <andythenorth> put it on rapids :P
10:51:03  <planetmaker> that's another option
10:51:10  <planetmaker> but harder, much harder, to place
10:51:25  <planetmaker> the other option I'd place 2nd is to place it entirely next to the river
10:51:36  <planetmaker> with a river extension where the mill wheel turns
10:51:50  <planetmaker> then the river will remain navigable
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10:54:11  <planetmaker> river extension only graphically, of course
10:54:41  <andythenorth> sprites overlapping the tile boundary?
10:54:45  <andythenorth> might work o_O
10:54:46  <planetmaker> no
10:54:50  <planetmaker> well. might work
10:55:02  <planetmaker> but I'd rather then put the wheel at the tile boundary
10:55:36  <planetmaker> hm... though yes, we have a problem with showing water... we might need to do that then... :S
10:55:48  <planetmaker> So... rather build on the river. Better looks
10:55:48  <andythenorth> put the tile on the N side :P
10:55:53  <andythenorth> wheel / tile /s
10:56:05  <andythenorth> hidden
10:56:25  <planetmaker> he. In my mind I *always* placed it on the Western sides, either NW or SW.
10:57:32  <planetmaker> I would like a turning wheel :-)
10:58:32  * andythenorth tries to figure out how to link up a mill stream with main river graphics
10:58:39  <andythenorth> would need to cross the river bank graphics
10:58:47  <planetmaker> yes
10:59:22  <andythenorth> I don't want to do one of those weird graphical cheats which go out of the tile
10:59:42  <planetmaker> Then probably our option is only on the river
10:59:48  <andythenorth> block it?
10:59:52  <planetmaker> yes
10:59:56  <andythenorth> ach try it
11:00:02  <planetmaker> if we don't want that, it need be on rapids. But... meh
11:00:20  <planetmaker> try on? or try graphical cheat? :D
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11:09:14  <andythenorth> try cheat
11:09:19  <andythenorth> rapids are too limiting
11:10:51  <planetmaker> you think it's bad to block the river?
11:10:59  <andythenorth> it is for ships :)
11:11:11  <andythenorth> but there are canals, right? :P
11:11:20  <planetmaker> we can also argue that a proper water mill needs a river block to generate some water drop. and ^^
11:11:30  <andythenorth> build a lock :P
11:11:43  <planetmaker> well. you don't need that on flat terrain ;-)
11:11:48  <andythenorth> just try it blocking the river
11:11:53  <andythenorth> see what happens :)
11:12:27  <andythenorth> actually, anything like drawing a mill stream is bad
11:12:35  <andythenorth> because it might not match river graphics anyway
11:12:48  <planetmaker> ok. It's also the easiest thing to do
11:12:49  <andythenorth> so definitely just build on river
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11:17:35  <Wolf01> hi o/
11:18:19  <planetmaker> hello Wolf01
11:22:54  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, it's in Flemmish/Dutch <-- i'm fairly sure there were english subtitles available :p
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12:39:12  <roidal> how can i save the company-password?
12:39:21  <roidal> when i restart the server the passwords are disabled?
12:40:08  <Ammler> you can't
12:40:18  <Ammler> not diabled, removed
12:40:38  <roidal> ok
12:40:40  <roidal> thx
12:41:29  <Ammler> simply because you don't want to save the passwords in the game.sav
12:41:45  <Ammler> and that is about all infos you keep on restart
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12:44:24  <planetmaker> it's not even removed. It simply is and was never saved
12:44:40  <planetmaker> and saving it has problems with e.g. giving away savegames or so
12:45:21  <planetmaker> a viable solution, roidal, is to use admin scripts to automatically set passwords. And of course good administration to move people on request into their companies after a reload
12:46:34  <roidal> ok
12:48:18  <roidal> and what exactly is saved in the save-files?
12:48:28  <roidal> some settings too?
12:48:41  <roidal> or only the map and companies?
12:48:42  <planetmaker> most settings are saved
12:49:00  <planetmaker> except network settings and gui-only ones
12:49:12  <planetmaker> look at your adv. settings. All but the ui section is saved
12:49:29  <roidal> so, if i create a new game and change difficulty or economic settings in the openttd.conf
12:49:40  <roidal> it doesnt affect already existing games?
12:49:48  <planetmaker> exactly
12:50:11  <roidal> oh
12:50:25  <roidal> and how can i change it in the running game? i tried it with the console
12:50:30  <planetmaker> rcon
12:50:48  <planetmaker> yes, via console you can. In single player of course also via the adv. settings UI
12:50:49  <roidal> i tried to change the construction_cost but it doesen't allow it
12:50:59  <planetmaker> yes, you can't change everything in MP games
12:51:05  <planetmaker> some things are fixed. And that's it
12:51:15  <roidal> thats bad...:D
12:51:33  <planetmaker> it would be bad, if it were allowed. Clients would be kicked due to diverging game states
12:51:36  <roidal> and if a load the map as a singleplayer game, change it, and then load as multiplayer again?
12:51:42  <planetmaker> that might work
12:51:52  <planetmaker> though... construction costs... not sure
12:52:19  <planetmaker> try
12:52:35  <roidal> ok
12:52:37  <roidal> thank you!
12:56:37  <NGC3982> Good afternoon.
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13:42:19  <andythenorth> hmm
13:42:25  <andythenorth> how does the ternary operator work in nml?
13:42:48  <andythenorth> I want to return '3079 + (animation_frame / 4)' if animation_frame < 19
13:42:48  <planetmaker> x = y == 2 ? 5 : 3
13:43:08  <planetmaker> x = condition ? true : false
13:43:13  <andythenorth> ah
13:46:05  * andythenorth wonders if there's a number for an empty sprite in base set?
13:46:18  <andythenorth> 93-97 look empty
13:47:22  <frosch123> those are character sprites
13:47:28  <frosch123> you will trigger an error when using them in a spritelayout
13:47:29  <roidal> whats the "default company password" button?
13:47:31  <andythenorth> k
13:47:58  <andythenorth> I currently have smoke that turns into a floating bus :)
13:48:14  <FLHerne> Any good reason? :P
13:48:20  <frosch123> roidal: it makes the entered password to be stored in your local openttd.cfg, and automatically applied whenever you start a new company on any server
13:48:30  <frosch123> (storage is unencrypted)
13:48:54  <roidal> ah
13:48:56  <roidal> thanks
13:49:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: know of any other sprites that are blank? :P
13:49:14  <frosch123> doesn't it have a tooltip hint btw?
13:49:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: add one?
13:49:36  <andythenorth> needs to have a number from the base set
13:49:41  <frosch123> or even use the adv spritelayout stuff to make a sprite invisble
13:49:47  <planetmaker> uhm, I don't think there is one, andythenorth
13:49:54  <andythenorth> can't do that (right now)
13:50:02  <andythenorth> owing to I have to go to the toyshop o_O
13:50:21  <andythenorth> I'll add a special template for smoke sprites
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14:00:56  <roidal> and there is again a question
14:01:05  <roidal> how can i remove a server from the list?
14:02:52  <planetmaker> shut down
14:03:39  <roidal> no :D i mean
14:03:55  <roidal> i added a server in the client...which i don't need anymore
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14:05:37  <roidal> other way?
14:05:38  <roidal> ok
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14:10:28  <planetmaker> select another server. the memory only holds one...
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14:54:01  <TrueBrain> building a new balancer (finally .. about freaking time, but okay):
14:54:12  <TrueBrain> <- if anyone has some sane remarks on the code, lemme know ;)
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15:15:24  <andythenorth> hmm
15:15:25  <andythenorth> smoke
15:16:58  <andythenorth> all these lovely steam ships
15:17:04  <andythenorth> and no way to show smoke :o
15:20:20  <Flygon> Isn't there a steam-smoke flag?
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15:20:56  <Flygon> I've seen it used in eGTRS 2.0
15:20:57  <Flygon> Also
15:21:00  <Flygon> I forgot the acronym
15:22:09  <andythenorth> yes there is a flag
15:22:14  <andythenorth> it was very kindly patched
15:22:21  <Rubidium> capture it!
15:22:24  <frosch123> Flygon: egrvts
15:22:37  <frosch123> extended generic roadvehicle and tram set
15:22:41  <frosch123> easy, isn't it? :p
15:23:16  <andythenorth> there is even an option to offset smoke along the y axis :)
15:23:27  <andythenorth> but there is no option to offset z
15:23:29  <andythenorth> or x
15:23:30  <frosch123> "y axis" :p
15:23:38  <frosch123> you mean "along the vehicle"
15:23:51  <Rubidium> that's X ;)
15:24:31  <andythenorth> ha
15:24:36  <andythenorth> I read the code as y
15:24:38  <andythenorth> but nvm :)
15:24:57  <andythenorth> it's a long time since I read it :P
15:25:03  <andythenorth> when I last tried to patch this
15:25:09  <Rubidium> oh, in code... then I have no clue ;)
15:25:22  <Rubidium> only know the axis in measurement data ;)
15:25:31  <andythenorth> anyway this one is a social problem, not a code problem
15:26:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24631 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-27 15:25:57 UTC)
15:26:04  <DorpsGek> -Feature: Add buttons to expand/collapse all to advanced settings GUI.
15:26:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24632 /trunk/src (5 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-27 15:26:17 UTC)
15:26:24  <DorpsGek> -Feature: Add text filtering to advanced settings.
15:26:30  <andythenorth> o_O
15:26:40  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24633 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2012-10-27 15:26:34 UTC)
15:26:41  <DorpsGek> -Add: Autoexpand the adv. settings tree, if a filter term is entered immediately after opening the window without any manual expanding/collapsing.
15:27:27  <Rubidium> tss... lazy translators ;)
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15:28:41  <andythenorth> what a nice steam ship
15:28:42  <andythenorth>
15:31:29  <Zuu> I though to do some minor tweaks to "Neighbours are important". One of those is to display a list of negihbour towns in the GUI. As town names sometimes can be quite long, I though it might be a good idea to have each town name on a line of its own. But then you need some sort of bullet list or indention. And that is my question, is there something better than dash-bullets?
15:31:30  <Zuu>
15:33:20  <Rubidium> maybe the > arrow from the order list?
15:36:20  <Rubidium> does the * look okay?
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15:39:44  <Zuu> The * looks wierd to me.
15:39:51  <Zuu> > can work
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15:41:56  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nice boat :-)
15:42:24  <Zuu> In OpenGFX its a double arrow >> in the orders list. I guess its actually a sprite rather than something from the font, so it might be hard to get int into a GSText unless there is a {}-code for it that is not documented on the wiki.
15:42:35  <andythenorth> FLHerne: danmack drew it
15:43:15  <planetmaker> hm, which, Zuu ?
15:43:33  <Zuu> planetmaker: which do you mean?
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15:44:15  <planetmaker> sprite / thing you're "worried" about
15:44:59  <planetmaker> there's... a bullet character in the extra grf afaik
15:45:19  <planetmaker> but better... depends on how you want to display it
15:45:57  <Zuu> I was wondering if there is a bullet that can be added to english.txt that might be better visually than the dashes that I use in the screenshot.
15:46:09  <planetmaker> let me look...
15:46:17  <Zuu> <Zuu> <-- screenshot
15:47:41  <Zuu> I could try to indent the towns the same amount as the cargo requirements, but that indention seem to be hardcoded as pixles in the code rather than as spaces in a string. So I doubt I can get the same indention as that list above for any font setting.
15:47:46  <planetmaker> maybe?
15:48:17  <planetmaker> it's available in the sprite fonts
15:50:34  <Zuu> With dot:
15:51:05  <Zuu> I guess I should add a space before the dot to get it to look a bit better.
15:51:13  <Zuu> Otherwise quite nice.
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15:52:12  <planetmaker> actually, it suffices to have no letter except a bit indentation
15:52:15  <planetmaker> imho
15:53:49  <Zuu> Yea, that is probably going to be the best.
15:54:22  <Zuu> Only expection is if a town name is soo long that it warps. But then there will be no indention for the warped part, so that should work too.
15:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if you had a GRF, i'd suggest just adding a sprite for the desired UTF-8 character...
15:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the word is "wrap", btw.
15:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> has nothing to do with startrek :)
15:55:21  <Zuu> Indention vs dots:
15:56:37  <planetmaker> hm. Dots might look better after all :-)
15:56:57  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but... then that char should be part of the base sets
15:56:58  <frosch123> is the dot present in openttd.grf ogfx_extra.grf?
15:57:05  <frosch123> else you will have trouble with the sprite font
15:57:06  <planetmaker> frosch123, yes
15:57:14  <planetmaker> I only suggested those I found there
15:57:17  * Zuu uses sprite font
15:57:36  <planetmaker> documentation there luckily is quite good :-)
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15:58:41  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i was speaking in conditional for a reason
15:59:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (even though the grammar was probably wrong)
15:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: i think the dots look fine
15:59:43  <planetmaker> I think it was right. But I still believe that NewGRFs are a bad place to introduce new characters...
16:10:49  <Zuu> Is it the dessert/snow status of the town tile that decide if the town is a dessert/snow town?
16:11:02  <Zuu> town tile = tile under town sign.
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16:12:44  <planetmaker> yes
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16:18:18  <Zuu> Non-desert towns accept food right? Its just the water requirement that need to be removed (and instead increase the other requirements of those towns)
16:19:03  <planetmaker> food acceptance is a house property usually
16:19:22  <planetmaker> so every town will accept it, given proper houses + size
16:22:55  <Zuu> Good, then I'll add the 'water' requirement to food.
16:25:44  <Zuu> And in artic, food is accepted by towns both below and above snow line?
16:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, except when you load alpine.grf or something
16:26:42  <Zuu> So with default industries etc. the only real exception is that non-desert towns will not be able to accept water.
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16:29:54  <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just check acceptance nearby?
16:30:09  <planetmaker> I think that's right, Zuu. As water towers probably only are buildable in the desert
16:30:15  <planetmaker> but worth checking :-)
16:31:12  <Zuu> The wiki article about climates didn't contain much cover on these restrictions from this perspective.
16:31:43  <DanMacK> What are you guys up to now? Lol
16:32:03  <planetmaker> sounds like game scripts
16:32:10  * Zuu is looking over "Neighbours are important"
16:33:01  <Zuu> No fundamental news. Just a few improvements here and there within the limitations of what is possible within the 1.2.x API.
16:33:33  <DanMacK> Coo
16:38:36  <supermop> is there a patch of either c-dist or yacd with a new enough nightly for GS?
16:38:51  <FLHerne> cdist is, easily
16:38:59  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Might be an idea. I beleive the current limits of when goals kick in are somewhat safe, but checking actual cargo acceptance would solve things like alpine.grf as well as protecting against a town starting to require food before it is large enough to accept it.
16:39:35  <FLHerne> I don't think YACD's been updated for ages, but CDist's <100 revisions behind trunk
16:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: large towns tend to not accept food in the center, as a building can only accept either food or goods, not both
16:41:01  <Zuu> It may be that a such mechanism would cause trouble in more cases than it solves. Especially as I can't remember anyone complaining on this issue.
16:43:47  <Zuu> So I think I'll skip that for now.
16:45:22  <supermop> why did noone ever make a generic train set
16:45:44  <supermop> something like eGTS
16:49:20  <peter1138> it's called ukrs ;)
16:50:41  <supermop> thats what i've been using in its place
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16:51:17  <supermop> something like the original trains but with more MUs would be nice
16:53:41  <supermop> just a few generations of trains a couple of choices, cheap vs powerful or something
16:54:27  <planetmaker> like opengfx+ trains?
16:54:40  <supermop> but more trains
16:54:58  <supermop> say instead of just the manley morel, there is a similar emu
16:55:35  <supermop> and so forth with the dash
16:56:36  <supermop> one or two older electrics and new diesels
16:56:49  <supermop> but still a generally low number of total trains
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17:11:45  <planetmaker> supermop, can you prepare a list of engines, their stats, including intro and decomissioning dates which would suit your needs?
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17:19:41  <supermop> yes i suppose i could
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17:45:42  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24634 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2012-10-27 17:45:31 UTC)
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 69 changes by Oomjcv
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> catalan - 35 changes by arnau
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> german - 8 changes by planetmaker
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> tamil - 25 changes by Rubidium, aswn
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17:48:59  <supermop> how do i filter servers my version?
17:49:02  <supermop> by
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17:49:36  <Guest3360> what exactly does "inflation" do? does all prises raisis (also the money you get for delivering)
17:49:42  <Guest3360> or only the prices of old engines?
17:50:26  <planetmaker> all prices rise. But expenses faster than income
17:50:48  <Guest3360> thanks
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18:03:42  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the version you use is automatically on top
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18:35:24  <__ln__> is there netflix in germanland?
18:41:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never seen one
18:44:39  <__ln__> netflix started here last week, and it's seems to be very affordable and technically great service.
18:47:14  <Zuu> I think I saw on the news that they have started in England/UK and now scandinavia is their second market in europe.
18:50:55  <Zuu> IIRC it was said that they also plan to start up in Spain. Eventually they will probably get to Germany too.
18:51:12  <NGC3982> __ln__: It works really well around here, too
18:51:37  <NGC3982> I really like how services like this work
18:51:46  <NGC3982> Spotify + Netflix, for instance
18:52:23  <NGC3982> Monthly payments, "unlimited usage" and a fair amount of content.
18:53:32  <__ln__> exactly
18:54:21  * NGC3982 company used to be the CiC unit for Spotify
18:55:13  <NGC3982> The lack of customer credit and debt collection is quite effective.
18:55:18  <Zuu> Althrough it is kind of irritating when some CD that you have been listening on for a year suddenly vannish from Spotify and is impossible to buy on even Amazon.
18:55:35  <NGC3982> Zuu: That is true.
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18:56:13  <NGC3982> Though, comparing what you pay for the premium service (with that risk) and a physical CD collection - It's quite unmatchable.
18:56:54  <NGC3982> At least now when they have added so much music
18:58:07  <Zuu> Though, for 1200 SEK (premium) or 600 SEK (new add-free plan), you can buy a few CDs a year.
18:59:49  <Zuu> Its indeed good, but especially when there was only the 1200 SEK plan, you could compare it to buying some 6-8 CDs a year.
19:00:24  <__ln__> i suppose that's the business idea behind Spotify and Netflix.. the vast majority of people spend more on the subscription than they would spend on CDs or rental movies per year.
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19:04:17  * __ln__ spends 0€ per year on rental movies
19:05:30  <andythenorth> 13 industries left to migrate :P
19:05:48  * Zuu has used some on-demand retal services, but never reached a long term cost that reach the fee for netflix.
19:06:49  <Terkhen> hello
19:06:58  <Zuu> In order for netflex to "pay", I need to watch more than 2 movies in average per month.
19:07:34  <Zuu> Hello Terkhen
19:08:04  <andythenorth> lo Terkhen
19:12:26  <NGC3982> Zuu: According to, i use roughly 100 hours of Spotify a month.
19:12:53  <NGC3982> That's worth every penny, for me at least :)
19:13:13  <NGC3982> __ln__: Of course, as you said with rental movies.
19:13:32  <NGC3982> It's a great way to reduce piracy and at the same time make people use the material.
19:13:56  <NGC3982> At least as far as i think.
19:14:01  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Great job, sport.
19:15:50  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Will you let us know when the SFIRS 0.0.1 is done?
19:16:00  <__ln__> considering how much e.g. Viasat would cost per month, and how crap it is (both technically and contentwise), 7,99€ for netflix is really cheap.
19:18:10  <Zuu> Indeed. I've ended my TV subscription and for that I can easily pay for the content that I want to see and still reduce the total cost.
19:18:12  <NGC3982> As long as it works.
19:18:18  <NGC3982> Spotify did, luckily.
19:18:41  <NGC3982> And a thing that i love is that you don't lock the fuck up on twelve month subscription crap ass-twat-faces.
19:18:50  * NGC3982 calms down.
19:19:02  <NGC3982> Im sorry for that.
19:22:26  <andythenorth> anyone added smoke yet?
19:24:34  <__ln__> viasat's movie thing costs 19,95€/month, and afaik it contains 1 HD channel and four or five bad-bitrate-SD channels.
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19:27:45  <NGC3982> __ln__: Ew.
19:27:54  <oskari89> andythenorth: Do you have cargo chart for SFIRS?
19:28:13  <andythenorth> nope
19:28:19  * NGC3982 can make one.
19:28:25  <andythenorth> what is SFIRS?
19:28:29  <NGC3982> Soylent FIRS.
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19:29:04  <NGC3982> ./topic Welcome to #OpenTTD - It's made out of people!"
19:29:19  <andythenorth> there are logs giving my view on further mention of soylent
19:29:21  <andythenorth> bye
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20:40:55  <TrueBrain> any math freak in the house?
20:42:58  <TrueBrain> meh, what a boring channel :(
20:46:01  <planetmaker> zzzZZZZzzz ;-)
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20:56:53  <Warod> hah
21:02:40  <TrueBrain> ah, Warod
21:02:45  <TrueBrain> I can now selectively mirror files
21:02:52  <TrueBrain> so .. you owe me a mirror for OpenTTD :P
21:03:00  <Warod> ha! ;)
21:03:23  <Warod> not unpossible, yes. :)
21:04:12  <Warod> do you do geoIP based mirror selection?
21:04:16  <TrueBrain> yes
21:04:28  <Warod> so we could essentially provide mostly for .fi users?
21:04:46  <TrueBrain> mirrors offload to othermirrors if they get stressed
21:04:54  <TrueBrain> so during a release that wont really be the case
21:05:08  <Warod> yeah
21:05:19  <TrueBrain> the next closest mirror is HU, so all surrounding countries would also be knocking on your door
21:05:21  <Warod> how much mbps are we talking about on releases?
21:05:37  <TrueBrain> no clue really .. never did the math
21:06:01  <Warod> how many downloads in a day all together?
21:06:11  <TrueBrain> loading our stats page .. lets see ...
21:06:21  <TrueBrain> Last day: 3131, Last Week: 25886
21:06:25  <TrueBrain> Average day: 2964
21:06:44  <TrueBrain> 1.2.2 was downloaded 185k times
21:06:49  <Warod> is that normal day or when was the release out?
21:06:59  <TrueBrain> that is today, so "normal"
21:07:09  <Warod> mm
21:07:47  <TrueBrain> the Yogcast caused 30k downloads a day
21:07:48  *** krinn [] has joined #openttd
21:07:49  <Rubidium> there have been four days with more than 10k downloads
21:07:54  <krinn> hi
21:08:31  <TrueBrain> lets say 10M for a binary (over-estimated, but meh)
21:08:40  <TrueBrain> so that would be 300GB that day
21:08:45  <TrueBrain> which was a peak day
21:08:58  <Rubidium> and the only discernable peaks are beta1 (just before Christmas) and .0 (begin Q2)
21:09:04  <TrueBrain> you do make me wonder ... I could in theory implement bandwidth trottled mirrors
21:09:17  <TrueBrain> like: max N GB per day
21:09:22  * planetmaker donates an "h" to tb
21:09:24  <TrueBrain> I could also restrict to like: only from FI
21:09:37  <Warod> TrueBrain: well.. not that much of a traffic then. :)
21:09:43  <Warod> our yesterday was...
21:09:50  <Warod> 855 GB
21:09:52  <TrueBrain> then why are you bugging me getting those details
21:09:54  <TrueBrain> pffffffff
21:10:05  * TrueBrain slaps Warod .. making me work .. pffff
21:10:19  <Warod> ;D
21:10:25  <planetmaker> :-P
21:10:26  <Warod> You're ment to be coding! ;)
21:10:32  <TrueBrain> been all day :P
21:10:43  <TrueBrain> so, prep us a mirror :P I only need rsync access ;)
21:11:02  <glx> and some space
21:11:06  <TrueBrain> ah, yes
21:11:07  <TrueBrain> space
21:11:11  <Warod> how much space?
21:11:11  <TrueBrain> I'm in space!!
21:11:16  * krinn think TrueBrain need an excuse to slaps someone anyway
21:11:19  <planetmaker> and some bandwidth ;-)
21:11:20  <TrueBrain> 100GB, I always yell
21:11:32  <TrueBrain> but you only want a selective mirror, not?
21:11:38  <TrueBrain> so only release and latest nightly?
21:11:51  <Warod> yeah, that would be the most meaningful
21:11:56  <Ammler> osx nightlies only
21:12:03  <TrueBrain> so that is < 1GB
21:12:07  <TrueBrain> 500MB atm
21:12:14  <TrueBrain> so say 5GB, and I will be more than happy
21:12:19  <Warod> don't really see why we should keep the old stuff there.. that nobody downloads anyways. :)
21:12:22  <planetmaker> no bananas?
21:12:27  <TrueBrain> owh, bananas
21:12:28  <TrueBrain> good point
21:12:38  <TrueBrain> adds 240 MiB
21:12:39  <TrueBrain> so yeah
21:12:45  <planetmaker> zbase will be 250MB. ogfx+trains 150MB
21:12:47  <planetmaker> etc.
21:12:48  <TrueBrain> Warod: yeah, we will be downgrading all mirrors in what they serve
21:12:51  <planetmaker> so easily a few GB, TrueBrain
21:12:54  <TrueBrain> old content will just come from our own server, which is fine
21:13:03  <planetmaker> zbase WILL be popular
21:13:10  <TrueBrain> owh, yeah, forgot about 32bpp ...
21:13:16  <Warod> TrueBrain: Yeah. That kind of mirroring is much easier to come by. :)
21:13:19  <TrueBrain> euh ... I guess I will put the minimal requirement to 10GB then :P
21:13:41  <TrueBrain> Warod: yeah; we have a few people that dont mind hosting the 45k files we serve atm
21:13:45  <Rubidium> more long running 'stats' on downloads
21:13:47  <TrueBrain> but for most people it is unneeded :P
21:13:49  <Warod> TrueBrain: yeah. Not a prob. Even the 100 GB would not be the problem if I did this 'offically'. :P
21:14:07  <TrueBrain> well, it would be lovely if you can cook something up
21:14:12  <Warod> TrueBrain: We do mirror all the public map data of whole country...
21:14:21  <Ammler> does the new mirror script also autoskip temporarly unavailable hosts?
21:14:21  <Warod> TrueBrain: About 4 TB worth of data. :)
21:14:35  <TrueBrain> depends on your word "temporary"
21:14:42  <TrueBrain> it contains all the hosts to which it could rsync last
21:14:45  <TrueBrain> I might add http checks later
21:14:49  <TrueBrain> Warod: lolz ;)
21:14:50  <Ammler> going offline without telling you :-)
21:15:18  <TrueBrain> atm it just replaces the current balancer
21:15:22  <TrueBrain> but is more reactive and more clever
21:15:25  <TrueBrain> it has filters
21:15:28  <TrueBrain> and uses JSON!
21:15:36  <Ammler> like the issue with peters mirror lately
21:17:46  <TrueBrain> it doesnt have the intention to fix that atm
21:17:52  <TrueBrain> if it rsyncs, it assumes http works
21:17:54  * Rubidium finds it quite interesting that the average number of downloads on Monday and Tuesday are the same
21:17:57  <TrueBrain> so downtime can still be 24h
21:19:36  <Warod> you could do a poller which only fetches a header. :P
21:21:07  <Ammler> the issue might be that the balancer then prefers such hosts, because they don't produce traffic
21:23:28  <Warod> but I'll have to get some sleep. :S
21:23:29  <TrueBrain> in time I might add a check, which does a HEAD call to a mirror once every N minutes
21:23:35  <TrueBrain> but .. not today :)
21:23:38  <TrueBrain> sleep well Warod :)
21:24:09  <Warod> I definitely hope I do. ;D
21:24:23  <Warod> Hell of a week. :P
21:24:46  <Warod> and the hotel sucked... days were too damn long. :P
21:24:54  <TrueBrain> hehe
21:25:03  <Ammler> depends how you sum the traffic for the balancer, it could be an issue
21:25:04  <Warod> was only one day at home last week really. :S
21:25:24  <TrueBrain> ugh; hotel life, its a bitch
21:25:33  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I dont understand what you try to say?
21:25:57  <Ammler> if a host is down, it doesn't produce traffic, so the balancer sends all request there
21:26:27  <TrueBrain> how do you think the balancer knows traffic?
21:26:37  <Warod> Ammler: When the host check is implemented it'll be dropped out of the pool in few minutes if it doesn't respond to the requests properly.
21:26:55  <TrueBrain> it is not like we measure how much the client is really using ;)
21:27:06  <TrueBrain> when I redirect a client to a mirror, I add the size of the file to its usage
21:27:10  <Ammler> so you simply count the "clicks"?
21:27:16  <TrueBrain> even if the client aborts, for al lI care, the bandwidth was used
21:27:23  <Warod> but now.. the sleep ->
21:27:25  <Warod> nn
21:27:26  <TrueBrain> sleep well!
21:27:44  <Ammler> ok, then it might be even a kind of solution for the host is down too
21:28:48  <TrueBrain> I mean, there is not really another way to measure 'traffic'
21:28:52  <TrueBrain> unless we instal shit on each mirror
21:28:56  <TrueBrain> which is a no-go for many of them :)
21:29:47  <Ammler> true, and if you could check, if it really worked, you could also disable it :-)
21:30:36  *** Jake [] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
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21:55:22  <Terkhen> good night
21:55:29  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
21:55:32  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
21:55:46  <__ln__> yes it is, finally getting back the lost hour
21:56:16  <TrueBrain> where did you lose it?
21:56:54  <glx> it will be back in 3 hours
21:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> "where were you when you lost it, 6 months ago?"
21:58:38  <TrueBrain> 7
21:58:39  *** sla_ro|master [slaco@] has quit [Quit: DANGER is OFFLINE DANGER]
21:58:40  <TrueBrain> :D
21:58:55  <glx> indeed 7 :)
21:59:03  <TrueBrain> Winter time only lasts for 5 months
21:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> right...
22:00:00  <__ln__> the whole idea is absurd
22:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that never stopped anybody :p
22:00:38  <TrueBrain> hihi; that is funny because it is true :D
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22:35:03  <TrueBrain> programmed for 10+ hours straight
22:35:09  <TrueBrain> and I wonder why I am tired :P
22:35:11  <TrueBrain> hahahaha
22:35:59  <planetmaker> :-) I guess you earned your sleep then
22:36:42  <TrueBrain> yeah; guess I delay launching the new balancer till tomorrow :P
22:36:56  <TrueBrain> the new stats page is AWESOME
22:38:52  *** Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
22:40:04  <planetmaker> new stats page?
22:40:07  <planetmaker> for bananas?
22:40:14  <TrueBrain>
22:40:15  <TrueBrain> no
22:40:17  <TrueBrain> for the balancer
22:41:56  <TrueBrain> it tells exactly when the next sync will be
22:42:00  <TrueBrain> what mirrors are doing
22:42:07  <TrueBrain> if they are synced, broken, inactive, ...
22:42:28  <TrueBrain> and, and I really like that, the bandwidth in week and day
22:42:31  <TrueBrain> instead of: since startup
22:46:23  <TrueBrain> now you are supposed to say: wow, nice!
22:46:25  <TrueBrain> :P :D
22:48:54  <planetmaker> yup, I can say that. Looks very nice :-)
22:49:36  <Chris_Booth> cool
22:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause> bah 3 blue people talking always confuses me
22:53:51  <TrueBrain> 680 lines of code ...
22:53:55  <TrueBrain> 20k chars ..
22:54:06  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, is turquoise, tb pink and cb red
22:55:44  <TrueBrain> hint: never start inotify with ALL_EVENTS
22:55:51  <TrueBrain> when you start 3 rsyncs, it will complain :D
22:56:00  <TrueBrain> (it also triggers events for OPEN, CLOSE, READ ...)
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23:04:51  <TrueBrain> well, time for some sleep I guess; nn
23:06:50  *** Hyronymus [] has joined #openttd
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23:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> why do i keep hitting the "keep me logged in" button in the forums, when it throws me outevery few days anyway?
23:13:13  <Wolf01> 'night
23:13:17  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:21:04  <supermop> on opera at home, it never keeps me logged in
23:21:24  <supermop> on opera at work, it's kept me logged in for about 2 years
23:22:30  <supermop> will the town in the title game grow if you leave it on long enough?
23:22:49  <glx> probably
23:23:22  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:23:27  <supermop> i've seen a plane crash
23:24:31  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:25:00  <planetmaker> it's a normal game, supermop
23:25:20  <Eddi|zuHause> with a handful hacky exceptions
23:25:57  <supermop> timetabling anything without departureboards is so frustrating
23:27:01  <supermop> played a bit of mp with FLHerne_ though and that was fun!
23:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. so make the departure bords trunk-worthy!
23:29:04  <Eddi|zuHause> timetables should be about macromanagement, not micromanagement
23:29:33  *** FLHerne_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:32:57  <supermop> i just enjoy timing trains so that flat junctions ans station throats are clear
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