Log for #openttd on 1st November 2012:
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00:17:03  * drac_boy smears supercheese with more cheesy cheese?
00:17:08  <drac_boy> heh sorry just had to humor myself
00:17:17  <Supercheese> oy!
00:17:56  <Supercheese> I promised to code a test-grf a while back and still haven't gotten around to it
00:18:09  <Supercheese> I really should not promise things I have low motivation to do...
00:18:37  <drac_boy> heh
00:18:44  <Supercheese> guess I should take a crack at it
00:18:58  <drac_boy> I still have that grf project of mine that hmm well yeah need someone to make some nfo code for me
00:19:04  <drac_boy> otherwise...the typical slow progress :)
00:19:13  <Supercheese> Well, if it was NML code I could help you
00:19:23  <Supercheese> NFO, not so much
00:19:37  <drac_boy> heh
00:21:16  <drac_boy> what kind of test grf anyway?
00:21:29  <Supercheese> Implementation of leasing & second-hand purchase mechanics
00:21:43  <Supercheese> it has serious drawbacks, but lots can be controlled by .grf
00:22:17  <drac_boy> second hand? A sells off a bunch of  old freight wagons and company B can buy these instead of the usual new ones?
00:23:19  <Supercheese> lemme find the relevant thread
00:24:07  <Supercheese> Huh, searching through my posts I find the moderation has taken issue with my linking to another thread on the forums... strange
00:24:13  <Supercheese> moderation staff*
00:24:34  <Supercheese> a thread posted by orudge himself, no less
00:25:03  <Supercheese> Here we go:
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00:28:13  <drac_boy> mm
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00:30:48  <Supercheese> Curses, there's no "substitute" property for vehicles
00:37:23  <drac_boy> well 'll pass on that kind of idea considering I'm a single company game kind of person but mm... have fun with that new thing ok? :)
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00:37:46  <Supercheese> It would be valid for single companies, at least the implementation I plan
00:37:59  <drac_boy> how? haven't sold off anything
00:38:10  <Supercheese> That's the thing, they'd be available anyway
00:38:16  <Supercheese> no requirement for someone to have sold one
00:38:32  <Supercheese> blarg, need a list of default ttd vehicle properties
00:39:32  <Supercheese> wiki only has them for trains; guess I'll work with trains then
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00:40:49  <ycm> Hello #openttd. :)
00:41:29  <Ammler> Hello #ycm
00:41:39  <Ammler> .
00:44:18  <ycm> Is there a 'newbies' server for multiplayer?
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01:23:55  * drac_boy wonders about whacking flygon again?
01:23:58  <drac_boy> heh heh
01:25:59  <drac_boy> must be like mid-morning for you over there anyway isn't it?
01:26:16  <Supercheese> GMT -8 here
01:26:27  <Supercheese> 6:30 PM
01:26:41  <drac_boy> and you're not in australia....scat? :p
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01:27:18  <Supercheese> There's more of an AU address
01:28:13  <Supercheese> seems he got disconnected temporarily
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01:32:56  <drac_boy> -_-
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01:33:16  * drac_boy takes a coal axe and smashes flygon's internet connection into behaving
01:33:21  <drac_boy> heh :|
01:34:55  <Supercheese> Well, it's aussie Internet, apparently it has "expensive transits (non-local-routable-traffic)"
01:35:46  <drac_boy> Supercheese nothing worser than "limited space at a locked high price, and no we are not going to add any more seating space" from north america I'm sure tho ;)
01:36:08  <Supercheese> I'm just quoting
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05:32:09  <Rubidium> heffer: there has been a new release (if you didn't already know it)
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05:45:00  <Knogle> perhaps the channel topic should be updated.
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06:45:14  <__ln__> safety on-board, B777:
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08:08:59  *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
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09:00:24  <andythenorth> we need more people downloading grfs
09:00:36  <andythenorth> I am trying to get to 1m
09:00:43  <andythenorth> only on 918k :(
09:01:32  <lugo> user hitting 1mth dl gets a free cookie
09:02:17  <lugo> we'd be there in no time, i love cookies
09:02:33  <andythenorth> have a cookie
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09:18:55  <RavingManiac> Made a fourtrack line
09:19:01  <RavingManiac> I am now staring at it
09:19:05  <RavingManiac> it is so beautiful
09:20:56  <Flygon> Is it filled up?
09:23:51  <RavingManiac> There are currently about 32 trains running on it
09:24:09  <RavingManiac> It was originally a two-track line, was starting to get jammed
09:25:27  <NGC3982> Morning.
09:31:59  <Flygon> Nice :3
09:32:13  <Flygon> You should run the department of transport for Victoria
09:32:17  <Flygon> Dandnenong line :D
09:32:22  <Flygon> Morning NGC
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09:47:50  <Flygon> I've been playing this Europe scenario... 4 track lines, shame about the trains :p
09:49:04  <Flygon> As it turns out, 1906 presents some slow trains
09:51:32  <NGC3982> Hehe
09:51:34  <NGC3982> On a server?
09:54:20  <Flygon> Nah
09:54:24  <Flygon> Single Player
09:54:36  <Flygon> 2048*2048 would kill any online game
09:54:40  <Flygon> I'd love if it was MP
09:57:38  * NGC3982 is running a 2048^2 game online.
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10:21:02  <NGC3982>
10:21:14  <NGC3982> I can't seem to get the ships to understand where to go
10:21:32  <NGC3982> Their order is up the constructed river
10:21:37  <NGC3982> But they just circle around
10:23:46  <Yexo> what ship pathfinder do you use?
10:23:57  <Yexo> if it's not yapf, try switching
10:24:20  <NGC3982> Its YAPF.
10:24:23  <NGC3982> It's*
10:24:39  <NGC3982> Oh wait, no it isn't.
10:24:50  <NGC3982> Though, i'm playing on my own server. I can't seem to change that parameter.
10:25:00  <NGC3982> Can i change it with rcon?
10:27:11  <NGC3982> I fail to find documentation on simply turning it off and on for ships.
10:27:35  <NGC3982> Oh, hold on.
10:28:02  <NGC3982> There we are.
10:28:47  <NGC3982> Yexo: It works. Thank you very much.
10:29:10  <NGC3982> Is there any particular reason to YAPF not being on by default in 1.2.2?
10:29:24  <Yexo> I think it is the default now
10:29:28  <Yexo> not sure about 1.2
10:29:37  <Yexo> but if you have an existing config file it won't be changed
10:29:42  <NGC3982> Oh
10:29:43  <NGC3982> I see
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10:30:26  <Yexo> if I'm slow with reaction, it's not that I don't want to answer, it's just that I don't pay too much attention
10:31:40  <NGC3982> Hey, it's not like im demanding support here.
10:31:55  <NGC3982> i'm*
10:32:23  <Flygon> A tip, NGC3982
10:32:26  <Flygon> When taking a screenshot
10:32:29  <Flygon> Go to the ? icon
10:32:38  <Flygon> Then select...
10:32:48  <Flygon> Default Zoom Screenshot
10:32:53  <Flygon> Don't select whole map
10:33:01  <Flygon> I crashed a 2048*2048 game doing that :B
10:33:31  <NGC3982> I never use that function, ever.
10:33:49  <NGC3982> I use third party software to take selective screenshot + uploading
10:34:00  <Flygon> Ah, right
10:34:05  <Flygon> I use Dropbo
10:34:07  <Flygon> Dropbox*
10:34:08  <NGC3982> (It's Hyperdesktop: )
10:34:17  <NGC3982> It's very, very simple and very, very good.
10:34:29  <NGC3982> click it, mark the area, wait five seconds, url in a bubble.
10:34:33  <NGC3982> Click*
10:36:15  <Flygon> I guess
10:36:21  <Flygon> Buuut, never been a fan of that stuff
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11:17:02  <Terkhen> hello
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11:18:57  <Flygon> Yo
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12:50:03  <drac_boy> hi
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12:52:22  * Flygon shovels drac_boy onto his Moscow-St. Petersberg express
12:52:36  <Flygon> Dangit! My Blimps are slower than my trains! Shovel! Gogogo!
12:53:16  <Flygon> Anyway
12:53:17  <Flygon> You called?
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12:57:08  <drac_boy> you're really funny :P
12:57:17  <drac_boy> how're you anyway?
12:57:20  <Flygon> I'm not funny
12:57:25  <Flygon> That's the worst joke I ever told! :P
12:57:28  <Flygon> I'm quite alright
12:57:30  <Flygon> You mate?
12:57:39  <drac_boy> doing ok for now
12:59:18  <drac_boy> flygon so hmm yeah about trains as about this?
12:59:58  <Flygon> That is a very fascinating beast
13:00:09  <Flygon> Is it a geared locomotive?
13:00:22  <drac_boy> mm well the funny thing is .. thats the usual "busy" side .. on the other side theres no rods or any pistons tho
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13:00:29  <drac_boy> yeah its a lima shay .. the common ones
13:00:40  <Flygon> I'm getting better :)
13:01:03  <drac_boy> flygon and btw heres a small NG one 1607 Shay.jpg
13:01:14  <drac_boy> goes to show they were in any size from 2 to 3 trucks and different weights ;)
13:01:44  <drac_boy> and yeah I know the pistons are rather exposed :P
13:02:02  <Flygon> Oh wow
13:02:10  <Flygon> That poor little thing looks so fragile, and exposed...
13:02:24  <drac_boy> flygon yeah the smaller one could be worked with only one man .. and just a small scoop for the coal
13:02:27  <Flygon> I know the local Puffing Billy railway recently aquired a Climax geared locomotive
13:02:47  <Flygon> Are the wheels on that locomotive milled like that for a reason?
13:03:00  <drac_boy> no need for a shovel...just jab a small scoop into the firebox...sit for some time ... then get another small scoop
13:03:01  <Flygon> Does it go on a special track?
13:03:12  <Flygon> Well, certainly doesn't go very fast :p
13:04:06  <drac_boy> flygon...actually that the point.. the length-adjustable rods (the part between pistons and trucks) could take almost anything except a literal dime turn .. and the axles were a bit loose .. so these shays as dsigned could travel over crude ballastless tracks typical to cheap logging
13:04:06  <NGC3982> drac_boy: what's that on the side on the WM6S?
13:04:21  <Flygon> Ahh
13:04:22  <drac_boy> a normal 0-6-0T tank locomotive might have derailed too much due to its rigid 3 axles .. literally
13:04:48  <drac_boy> moment I know some good photos for you..
13:04:53  <Flygon> Yeah, I heard of geared locomotives being used to go on, among other things, literal wooden rails
13:05:05  <Flygon> Some I saw... looked like car wheels without tyres
13:05:19  <Flygon> And they just 'drove' in gauge with logs
13:05:39  <Flygon> Can't imagine the traction would be fantastic on a steep incline
13:07:18  <drac_boy> look at the track under the first load .. and even the little bridge behind isn't so "flat" neither
13:07:34  <drac_boy> thats the place a shay wouldn't care for .. but a normal rigid locomotive .. well .. as I said .. it may derail :)
13:09:32  <drac_boy> and flygon just for you to know if you didn't .. the odd offset boiler is a normal feature .. because all the pistons are on only one side ... they moved the boiler off to the side to compemsate for that rather than making a wider chassis which would had been of no use
13:09:55  * Flygon nod
13:10:15  <drac_boy> of course the silly thing about a shay is....they sound way faster than they should be :P
13:10:20  <Flygon> ...I just realized those logs are being held up by trailers
13:10:32  <drac_boy> 40mph? no sir .. thats just the pistons alone .. the axles are actually only doing 10mph! :)
13:10:57  <Flygon> The price for all-wheel drive that isn't rigid :p
13:11:13  <drac_boy> and with the big 3-trucks ... sometimes they'll smoke so much like an express NYC 4-8-4 locomotive ;)
13:11:42  <Flygon> I can't say I've seen such smoke :p
13:11:54  <Flygon> Only smoke I've seen here is huge plumes of black
13:12:29  <drac_boy> flygon...heh well another thing the shay had going for them was .. they'll restart a fresh lumber load up a 14% grade if its not that long
13:12:29  <Flygon> Hard to tell if the R-class is burning oil, or ... ... something that makes a lot of black smoke :U
13:12:38  <Flygon> Wow
13:12:40  <Flygon> 14%?
13:12:47  <Flygon> You're... well, crapping me, right?
13:13:23  <drac_boy> have to remember they had very long gears so the pistons are already turning pretty well by the times the axle finally start rolling unlike normal siderods which are hard pressed to start at such a low speed
13:13:52  <drac_boy> and .. 14% is actually just a conservative guessing .. some of the old lines that rammed through hills were .. crazy
13:14:11  <drac_boy> only limit would probably be wet rail traction and/or the slope of watersheets in firebox
13:14:17  <Flygon> Oh wow
13:14:45  <drac_boy> flygon of course by now the stupid thing called OSHA etc would never ever allow most of the things anymore..not even one-man locomotive crew either
13:14:50  <drac_boy> :|
13:15:18  <Flygon> Really?
13:15:37  <Flygon> I'm reasonably sure that V/Line has employed 1-man locomotive crew...
13:15:47  <drac_boy> reminds me of a photo of one of the few crew fixing the cable to one of the pantograph on a cog engine .. with the overhead wire only a feet from his head ... the photographer remarked that north america would had never allowed this kind of practice!!!
13:16:00  <Flygon> And when West Coast Railways existed, they ran 1-man locomotive crew on the R-class until the company finally died (2005)
13:16:07  <drac_boy> (the picture was taken in europe)
13:16:08  <Flygon> Australia has laxer OSHA?
13:16:18  <drac_boy> flygon mm could be :)
13:16:23  * Flygon nod
13:16:47  <Flygon> Though, interestingly, I tend to see Metro EMU's having at least 2 people inside the cab...
13:16:53  <drac_boy> flygon oh and hmm theres one thing I know in general for north america but don't know about it oversea....
13:17:05  <Flygon> And sometimes around 6. But those EMU's are usually for driver training with 6 crewmen...
13:17:20  <drac_boy> used to be if a bad accident happened anyone either from intact section of the train or from nearby town would all come to help out with anything even torching steel roofs out of the way ...
13:17:38  <drac_boy> but nowaday its not even allowed in any way anymore..only the fire crews can do these kind of tasks >_<
13:17:42  <Flygon> Oh lord
13:17:54  <Flygon> Doesn't help America has this "Sue anyone" culture
13:17:59  <drac_boy> yeah .. blame the stupid "safety" board whichever one it is these days
13:18:03  <drac_boy> and THAT too yeah
13:18:10  <Flygon> Suing a good samaritan shouldn't be a default reaction >_>
13:18:17  <drac_boy> yeah I so agree with you :/
13:18:46  <drac_boy> I mean its rather fun to watch these old newsreel of a passenger train accident and you barely even can find one single police officer head anywhere .. its almost all last-minute volunteers
13:18:50  <Warod> i,w 32
13:18:52  <Warod> asdf
13:19:13  <Flygon> I'm not able to recall what the legal situation about that is in Australia, sorry. But chances are, if a group of people that were only trying to help got in trouble over it, you can bet the public'd be a bit upset.
13:19:14  <NGC3982> Oh hi, Irssi user.
13:19:15  <NGC3982> :D
13:19:31  <drac_boy> flygon oh and another thing was .. a crew was not always "the crew" ....
13:19:53  <Flygon> Hm?
13:20:43  <drac_boy> one story I recall of was a typical local steam passenger train .. left station as usual .. but somewhere later down the line..came to a halt .... soon it moved abit a bit slow .. then halted again .. and wasn't long before a conductor went through train asking for a volunteering fireman .... one being found the train finally set off again .. dropping off the suddenly-ill fireman at an unscheduled station stop
13:20:59  <drac_boy> and the train continued on more or less to a slower schedule with this improper fireman all the way
13:21:26  <drac_boy> of course nowaday they wouldn't allow such thing "due to lack of skill" and safety etc
13:21:33  <drac_boy> again...curse you north america :p
13:22:17  <Flygon> Ahhh
13:22:19  <Flygon> Hmm
13:22:28  <Flygon> Here, you can be a fireman
13:22:31  <Flygon> But you need to pay to do it
13:22:39  <Flygon> This's on the Puffing Billy tourist railway
13:22:44  <drac_boy> mm
13:23:05  <Flygon> Dunno what other rail companie's policies are
13:23:33  <Flygon> I know with Steamrail, you might just end up with a lever in front of you that probably says "Oil Throttle" :p
13:23:39  <drac_boy> heh
13:25:16  <Flygon> But, yeah
13:25:48  <Flygon> Basically, it's possible here. But you either need to be an official volunteer, or pay to do it, first... which is deviating from the premise of your story somewhat
13:25:53  <drac_boy> hmm I just remembered one more shay thing..let me see if I can find it...
13:26:26  <Flygon> (gonna snag a quick snack, be a min)
13:28:56  <Flygon> Back
13:31:46  <drac_boy> flygon you want guess what happens when you combine a shay locomotive with absolutely no care for building useless bridges at all?
13:32:12  <Flygon> A locomotive that has a heavier axle load?
13:32:52  <drac_boy> nope:  just drop the tracks and leave it be .. beside its only 5-10mph so who is going to care
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13:34:10  <drac_boy> and a bigger crossing of the same river further down the line ..  (the man on front is just looking out for any submerged logs that may have washed onto the tracks)
13:34:22  <Flygon> Are you sure that doesn't have a steering wheel?
13:34:22  <drac_boy> talk about saving so much money not bothering with bridges
13:34:42  <drac_boy> heh nope
13:34:54  <Flygon> Because honestly, we're entering territory where it makes sense to just make low-speed trackless trains :p
13:35:13  <drac_boy> flygon..problem is this is only one river .. theres several more miles of normal dry tracks
13:35:16  <drac_boy> so ;)
13:35:20  <Flygon> Touche :p
13:35:58  <drac_boy> flygon of course this particular line sometimes have problem with locomotives "walking" off the track during winter .. and they had to wait for a bulldozer to reset it back right
13:36:25  <Flygon> A situation where steering could have been nice
13:36:30  <drac_boy> one good thing about the low water refilling for the tender ;)
13:36:41  <Flygon> Hahaha! That is sooo cute!
13:36:42  <Flygon> Er
13:36:43  <Flygon> true!
13:36:45  <Flygon> Why did I say cute?
13:36:51  <Flygon> Gah, muscle memory!
13:36:57  <drac_boy> this shows them pretty much doing that ... note the fat hose
13:37:48  <RavingManiac> The plane speed factor really shouldn't apply to helicopters
13:37:51  <Flygon> I presume they're wood fired, correct?
13:38:11  <drac_boy> flygon some were wood (which then means free fuel on logging .. some coal .. some oil
13:38:17  <Flygon> Ahh
13:38:19  <Flygon> Coal surprises me
13:38:37  <drac_boy> of course with wood you run into the problem of being careful to not use certain logs because they are too green to burn well
13:39:32  <Flygon> Of course
13:39:36  <drac_boy> on some old steam lines (think cuba, africa, etc that sort of locations) .. sometimes you could have bamboo+wood firing .. basically they exhausted any bamboos they had first then if there was not more to be found they started burning the wood instead then
13:39:39  <Flygon> But I still imagine it's cheaper than coal
13:41:18  <drac_boy> flygon btw it wasn't only shay locomotives that had to deal with crazy curves .. I know another one and its a mallet no less ... one moment :p
13:41:40  <Flygon> Oh wow, what
13:46:59  <drac_boy> heres a standard photo of it and it shows you how long the chassis is.....
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13:47:17  <drac_boy> and now,file=14682 that kind of CURVE is what they had to deal with everyday!
13:47:23  <drac_boy> notice how sharp it is? :)
13:47:46  <Flygon> How in the cruskets does that work?
13:47:49  <drac_boy> an artist's rendering of the locomotive doing its usual hard decking ;)
13:48:02  <drac_boy> notice how the frontleft piston is pretty much underneath the boiler by now
13:48:37  <drac_boy> and quoting a site with some info on them "Owing to the swing of the front cylinders when traversing sharp curves, it was found impracticable to apply a manually operated cylinder cock rigging and the cylinder cocks, therefore, are operated by air."
13:49:05  <drac_boy> an air hose is easy to reroute to the front truck ... a cable would had been too difficult to use by then
13:49:40  * Flygon nod
13:49:42  <drac_boy> only the second set of drivers were fixed to the chassis .. the front one pretty much was 'floating' to put it that way
13:49:46  <Flygon> I just find that amazing
13:49:51  <drac_boy> still .. really sharp curve and everything
13:51:53  <drac_boy> flygon btw these didn't have crazy tracks to deal with but still they choose a 0-4-0+0-4-0 mallet since it'll take the small curves with ease
13:52:00  <drac_boy> thats a K1
13:52:37  <Flygon> How narrow is that gauge?
13:52:56  <drac_boy> not sure heh
13:53:08  <Flygon> It seems absurdly narrow...
13:53:51  <drac_boy> and heres something on a bigger size
13:54:08  <drac_boy> and if you want the 'next size up' I think you pretty much already know what it is .. a 4-8-2+2-8-4
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13:54:57  <drac_boy> or this is a bit smaller.. 3 not 4 drive axles
13:55:03  <Flygon> Man
13:55:09  <drac_boy> beyer-garratt are pretty common in various sizes and gauges tho
13:55:12  <Flygon> Australia never got these interesting locomotives :p
13:55:20  <Flygon> Or, at least
13:55:23  <Flygon> Victoria didn't
13:55:33  <Flygon> I know New South Wales got some interesting designs...
13:58:32  <drac_boy> flygon and btw uk had the LNER U1 (which was a beyer-garratt) ... but they didn't like it too much .. and a true story goes that one or two of these on a train failed .. and had to be aided by a Big Bertha .. only one time there was so many drive axles in a single train
13:58:42  <drac_boy> on lickey incline where else
13:58:57  <Flygon> Big Bertha...
13:59:01  <drac_boy> can you imagine that? two garratts and one big locomotive on one train in uk
13:59:02  <Flygon> Never heard of her
13:59:17  <Flygon> UK is very restrictive on train sizes...
13:59:25  <drac_boy> flygon its a nickname they gave to a unique single 0-10-0 that had the primary task of banking up that steep line
13:59:28  <Flygon> Kinda surprising they have the official 200km/h recoord
13:59:32  <Flygon> Ahh, I see
13:59:51  <Flygon> (I'm surprised there was no verified 200km/h+ speed attempts by the US...)
13:59:57  <drac_boy> yeah I doubt they would ever want a 5-coupled locomotive anywhere else
14:00:30  <drac_boy> flygon I love the br.05 .. what else :p  its the speed record holder after all.  to our own ;)
14:00:49  <Flygon> br.05?
14:01:17  <drac_boy>
14:01:17  <Flygon> You mean the BR125?
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14:01:25  <Flygon> Ah
14:02:17  <drac_boy> mind you they didn't just hold the speed record but they clocked 100+mph in everyday service without much of a care
14:02:44  <LordAro> heyo
14:02:46  <drac_boy> even usa trains in the northeast usually only had a 60-80mph average
14:02:52  <Flygon> Sounds like the PPR T1 (I hope I got that right)
14:03:32  <drac_boy> abit at least a few streamlined ones did edge the average to a bit over 90mph
14:03:33  <Flygon> Heya LordAro
14:03:46  <drac_boy> especially the F7's with their striking trains
14:03:53  <Flygon> In Australia, you're lucky to find a steam locomotive that'd breach 140km/h
14:04:20  <drac_boy> heres an artwork of two of them
14:04:30  <Flygon> I know New South Wales had some on the Syd-Newcastle line that'd break 160km/h, though... and I'm reasonably sure the VR Heavy Harry/H-class could easily make such a speed on modern RFR lines...
14:04:37  <drac_boy> and yeah I know its funny they were called F7's .. and you had emd with their own F7 diesels .. confusing a bit indeed
14:04:59  <Flygon> Wow, that looks smooth as heck
14:05:37  <drac_boy> flygon another thing to keep in mind re the real speed records...
14:07:01  <drac_boy> the mallard had a long downslope and even then it had to be pulled out of service due to blown center piston valves (or was that the pre-mallard attempt?) ... while the BR 05 had to contend with flat track all the way
14:07:07  <Flygon> Ah, yes
14:07:10  <Flygon> I know
14:07:14  <drac_boy> and the mallard didn't exactly hold fast daily service sometimes
14:07:27  <drac_boy> at least in one case it was aiding a fast freight train ... 0_o
14:07:29  <Flygon> It did strike me as the Brits being overtly optimistic
14:08:04  <Flygon> But it also marks me as surprised the Americans didn't try to officially break that steam record
14:08:08  <Flygon> They clearly had the capacity
14:08:12  <drac_boy> seem a bit silly to watch a 50mph train of mixed goods vans and tarped flatcars .. with an mallard leading it
14:08:24  <Flygon> 50mph?
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14:08:30  <Flygon> It's not that silly in Australia :p
14:09:16  <drac_boy> flygon yeah I wonder about that too but you have to remember that usa at least did have the GG1 then Metroliner emu and the turbine Turboliner for speed
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14:09:34  <Flygon> You get situations where where locomotives that've been authorized to go just over 130km/h here, end up being limited to 80km/h on lines with TWPS enabled... because the 130km/h locomotive lacks TWPS
14:09:45  <Flygon> Which is a wallbanger. Because there's no discernable reason for that rule.
14:09:49  <drac_boy> the Turboliner holds the canadian speed record btw ... which is a surprise considering theres very little use for high speed tracks except between london-toronto-montreal
14:10:23  <drac_boy> the Metroliner were finally replaced (abit not without hiccups) by the Acela trainsets
14:10:52  <Flygon> So you end up with steam locomotives such as the R-class going over 130km/h on old rattly track (and doing it perfectly legally) that frankly shouldn't be handling it... but as soon as it goes near track that could probably handle trains trashing through @ 200km/h? "Nope! Sorry! You have no TWPS, 80km/h plzkthx"
14:11:05  <Flygon> Turboliner?
14:11:06  <drac_boy> the GG1? well .. they were scheduled to run on 160km/h timetables even as they became 40+ years old .. thats quite something to be honst
14:11:17  <Flygon> The UAC Turbotrain?
14:11:26  <Flygon> Yeah, the GG1 is quite impressive
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14:11:53  <drac_boy> flygon .. yeah .. that was one of the few names\IMG_0056.jpg  almost looks like something from the NS railroads you know?
14:12:09  <Flygon> Honestly
14:12:11  <drac_boy> I know NS had something with such a similar nose + raisedcab setup .. just don't recall the name
14:12:15  <Flygon> When I look at the Turbotrain
14:12:28  <Flygon> It reminds me of the SAR 'Jumbojet' Comeng's
14:12:46  <drac_boy> japan has a lot of them tho .. both short and long "noses"
14:12:57  <drac_boy> that shows one example with a short nose
14:13:09  <drac_boy> admittly the cab is not as raised but who cares
14:13:09  <Flygon>
14:13:25  <drac_boy> heh mm
14:13:29  <drac_boy> interesting
14:13:39  <Flygon> South Australia is... odd :p
14:13:46  <drac_boy> looks like a dmu+cabcoach set?
14:13:51  <Flygon> They basically had a Diesel version of Victoria's electric fleet
14:14:19  <Flygon> Pictured: Non-Jumbojet Electric version
14:14:40  <Flygon> Yeah
14:14:51  <Flygon> It's a DMU+cabcoach
14:16:37  <drac_boy> flygon these were ours
14:16:56  <Flygon> 404
14:17:04  <Flygon> Oops! Google Chrome could not find
14:17:13  <Flygon> Oh, that's odd
14:17:15  <Flygon> It loaded nw
14:17:18  <Flygon> now*
14:17:36  <Flygon> Huh
14:17:41  <Flygon> According to Wikipedia
14:17:55  <Flygon> The Adelaide Railcar I showed you is actually partially based off the Budd railcar you linked me
14:17:59  <drac_boy> and mind you some of them had unusual routes .. such as one on B&O being a 700+ miles route .. I mean .. 700 miles with only 40-50 seats? the connections must had been worth it to run such a lone rdc like that for many years
14:18:01  <Flygon>
14:18:59  <drac_boy> of course it doesn't help that in northeast usa pre-amtrak there were always a lot of quirky small connections just for the sake of letting passengers be able to go about anywhere they wish to
14:19:36  <Flygon> Makes sense
14:19:55  <drac_boy> nothing like watching an emd E5 rushing underneath the footbridge with nothing except a semi-occupied sleeper behind it as to make connection with an actual train
14:20:25  <Flygon> Heh
14:20:54  <Flygon> brb a sec
14:21:52  <drac_boy> flygon I have one magazine that listed the typical timetable for one of the station at Buffalo ... and you might have a heart attack ... the station switcher was always kept busy around the clock .. sometimes with very tight connection ... eg one train due at 11:42 and two of its coaches have to be detached to then be placed onto another train due at 11:46
14:22:15  <drac_boy> even a winter storm wasn't going to slow them down :-)
14:23:00  <drac_boy> and the crazy part: the article noted that a lot of the NYC trains ran in two sections .. thats just more shufflings to do at the station 0_o
14:23:26  <Flygon> Back
14:23:28  <NGC3982> &w 45
14:23:29  <Flygon> Woah o.o
14:23:59  <drac_boy> yeah
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14:24:52  <drac_boy> flygon of course if you wanted the opposite of that .. head to just about any small station in mid-usa ...
14:25:16  <Flygon> If I wanted the opposite, I'd go to anywhere in Victoria :p
14:25:19  <drac_boy> many of them by the 30's were usually only serviced by an old local train or more typically a mixed train .. so yeah there wasn't exactly a schedule at all ...
14:25:27  <Flygon> Our rail system is very slack...
14:26:04  <Flygon> eg. you'll get situations where a HSR-capable train is driven to a town... and then turned off for 8-12 hours until it runs again
14:26:15  <drac_boy> sometimes the old timetable board may show 10:30 arrival but ... guess what? its not till 11:10 that it finally shows up only to leave the coach behind on platform as it goes to shuffle a freight wagon or two away before putting the train back together and deperature when it wants to
14:26:25  <Flygon> Despite the fact it could easily act as a shuttle for 5-6ish trips between then
14:26:27  <drac_boy> that was your typical mixed train on old branchlines ^^
14:27:05  <Flygon> Victoria used to have a lot of branchlines, though... and most probably acted exactly the same way you described
14:27:10  <Flygon> And a lot is an understatemet
14:27:45  <Flygon> I'd make a comment about how this created more tentacles than Japanese... well... you get the picture. :p
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14:28:01  <drac_boy> flygon of course the other thing too is ... some of the canadian branchlines in the 50's had very old light locomotives that would throw off someone used to the modern big locomotives on CN, NYC, etc ....
14:28:58  <drac_boy> nothing like getting off a Hudson train ... only to later find an old 1890-dated sliding valve worked coal fired locomotive rambling away spotting some freight wagons for the branchline nearby
14:29:10  <Flygon> Heh
14:29:18  <Flygon> (also, branchline central)
14:29:24  <Flygon> We have a Diesel-like version of that here
14:29:29  <drac_boy> usually there was a good reason tho .. these old 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 were so much lighter than even a GP9 .. and the old branchlines had wooden trestles on a lot of them
14:29:44  <Flygon> T-class locomotives were built in the 1950s, and are still usd for mainline (and branchline, obviously) freight
14:29:53  <drac_boy> still .. sliding valves and no roller bearing etc ... can be a silly contrast
14:30:02  <Flygon> They're underpowered compared to modern locomotives, but are nearly unkillable
14:30:33  <drac_boy> oh and of course some part of canada had its own idocisms too (hope I spelled that right?) ..
14:30:44  <Flygon> They're like The Terminator of locomotives. If The Terminator was built by VR in the 1950s, had only 700 horsepower, and only went 100km/h...
14:30:52  <drac_boy> such as freight wagons with Arch suspension trucks (rather the more modern ones) still doing 70mph ... !
14:31:21  <Flygon> I guess they don't worry about goods being shaken?
14:31:22  <drac_boy> of course these wagons were retricted to canada.. they couldn't travel to usa
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14:32:12  <drac_boy> flygon and where else could you find a tank locomotive doing a fly-drop of commuter coaches? :)
14:32:37  <Flygon> North Korea?
14:34:01  <drac_boy> flygon .. as it went.. the tank locomotive stopped outside the station .. one man got down to manner the switch .. then the train restarted ... and the locomotive cuts off to head up the spur while the coaches just whiz by onto the platform .. then the loco returns back to the line and couple onto other end of train ...and quoting the article "and even the station master didn't bat an eye !!"
14:34:35  <drac_boy> I guess it was the crew's lazy way of getting the train turned around without having to do the slower normal runarounds ;)
14:34:35  <Flygon> Heh
14:35:16  <Flygon> Well, it worked :p
14:35:16  <NGC3982>
14:35:18  <drac_boy> flygon here's something of a bit of tidbit for you to know...
14:35:29  <drac_boy> there were a lot of EMD E units in usa right?
14:36:00  <drac_boy> well canada only had two .. and they were originally ordered for a montreal-newyork run ... otherwise canada only had and knew the F units alone
14:36:13  <drac_boy> very rare and unique two E units indeed
14:36:59  <Flygon> "In its initial attack on the Germans, the tank broke in half when crossing a ravine."
14:37:16  <drac_boy> made sense after all tho .. canada did not have a lot of fast flat tracks that would suit the A1A-A1A diesels
14:37:16  <Flygon> Good job, Russia
14:37:51  <drac_boy> flygon a different diesel in one moment ;) ...
14:38:11  <NGC3982> :D
14:38:34  <Flygon> Stilll
14:38:49  <Flygon> Much less fail than when Australia and New Zealand independantly designed a tank
14:38:56  <Flygon> The end result only ended up in parades
14:39:14  <Flygon> Mainly because anyone who was inside it, for a start, died of carbon monoxide poisoning
14:40:07  <drac_boy> fairbanks-morse 'trainmaster' .. a bit ahead for their time .. they were quite powerful for either longer train at same speed or vice versa .. not many roads could use that at the time
14:40:38  <drac_boy> anyway afk for a bit or so
14:42:04  <Flygon> Alright
14:42:06  <Flygon> Have fun!
14:42:41  <NGC3982> Flygon: haha
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15:15:44  * drac_boy pokes flygon
15:15:45  <drac_boy> :)
15:15:52  <Flygon> Beep
15:16:11  <drac_boy> so what doing anyway flygon?
15:16:46  <Flygon> Just built the Moscow-N. Nowgorod line
15:17:05  <Flygon> Building the Woronesh-N. Nowgorod line now
15:17:10  <Flygon> When I get this network done...
15:17:15  <Flygon> Signalling will be a pain
15:17:18  <Flygon> And then trains...
15:18:29  <drac_boy> heh?
15:19:33  <Flygon> And I just built that
15:19:34  <Flygon> Either way
15:19:36  <Flygon> Trains are like
15:19:39  <Flygon> Gonna kill me
15:19:48  <Flygon> I'm perpetually on between 1m to 2m Euro
15:20:07  <Flygon> Each individual EMU's gonna cost half a mill...
15:23:48  <drac_boy> whats your yearly profit?
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15:27:03  <Flygon> Uuuh
15:27:07  <Flygon> Hoow do I get the yearly?
15:30:08  <FLHerne> Finance window, presumably
15:30:32  <Flygon> All my total incomes just show negatives...
15:30:39  <Flygon> Because they show construction exponentian
15:31:11  <Flygon> Oh, wait
15:31:22  <Flygon> It's train operating costs that's most of the cost...
15:31:23  <Flygon> There you go
15:31:36  <Flygon> I spend 2.4bEUR on maintainence
15:31:41  <Flygon> Get 2.8bEUR profit
15:31:56  <Flygon> And spend 500kEUR yearly on construction
15:32:00  <Flygon> Rest is compensated by trams
15:33:17  <Flygon> Hmm
15:33:21  <Flygon> I ought to trim some services
15:33:27  <Flygon> Some are now needlessly double headed...
15:34:19  <drac_boy> heh flygon sounds like you're not quite good at managing that company yet? :)
15:34:29  <Flygon> I've been busy
15:34:31  <Flygon> Constructing
15:34:32  <Flygon> :p
15:34:38  <Flygon> Not actually making new profitable services
15:34:42  <drac_boy> :p
15:34:49  <Flygon> I could be a multi-trillionaire if I wanted to
15:34:57  <Flygon> But I want to build 329km/h lines instead
15:34:59  <drac_boy> flygon hmm well sounds like you have quite different company path than I do tho
15:35:05  <drac_boy> especially when you mentioned 'signals' and eurostar
15:35:09  <Flygon> ...except it's 1926
15:35:09  <drac_boy> ;)
15:35:22  <Flygon> I have no signals yet
15:35:26  <Flygon> On newer lines
15:35:32  <Flygon> Because there's no trains on them yet :p
15:35:48  <Flygon> I should send a .sav
15:36:55  <drac_boy> 1926 ... thats only 6 years for me but I might have ended up with one line worked by a crocodile
15:38:35  <Flygon> I've been going since...
15:38:41  <Flygon> 1842
15:40:58  <Flygon> Okay
15:41:08  <drac_boy> well I only can start at 1920 but :->
15:41:08  <Flygon> Renewed and updated/changed my rollingstock
15:41:13  <Flygon> Oughta be more profitable now
15:41:23  <Flygon> I use 2CC :p
15:41:30  <Flygon> Also experimenting with Dutch trainset...
15:41:31  <Flygon> But
15:41:38  <Flygon> I am not using anything in it...
15:41:42  <Flygon> Running costs are toooooooo low
15:41:53  <Flygon> It's not worthwhile using it
15:41:57  <drac_boy> probably your own game setting is wrong ;)
15:41:58  <Flygon> Because it's basically cheating
15:42:01  <Flygon> Probably
15:42:03  <Flygon> Hahaha
15:44:00  <V453000> you can always load basecosts mod as a last newGRF and adjust all previous newGRFs at once
15:44:11  <V453000> having them always keep similar costs
15:44:51  <V453000> not a perfect solution but if you really care about things cost, then it is a nice tool to make it more similar if you mix train sets
15:45:01  <V453000> caring about costs in general is not quite smart though ;)
15:45:23  <Flygon> Gotcha
15:45:34  <Flygon> I'll need to keep that in mind next time
15:45:49  <Flygon> Though, I have no Dutch anything in action at the moment anyway...
15:45:58  <Flygon> But the game would prolly explode if I removed the GRF now :P
15:46:26  * drac_boy only has dbsetxl alone in temperate :p
15:46:35  <Flygon> Ahh
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15:49:04  <V453000> yes removing newGRFs isnt the best thing to do :)
15:49:13  <V453000> adding basecosts should not hurt anything though
15:49:54  <Flygon> You can do that live?
15:51:56  <Flygon> drac_boy: Go wild :p
15:52:08  <keoz> weird. I can't compile version -1.2.3, while I could compile version 1.2.3-RC1
15:52:37  <drac_boy> Flygon I'll have to look some another day .. only have ttdxp alone many of the times sorry :)
15:52:48  <Flygon> Drat :p
15:53:01  <Flygon> I have... odd bobs and sods loaded
15:53:08  <drac_boy> heh
15:58:58  <Flygon> V453 is probably opening that .sav, and facepalming :p
15:59:14  <drac_boy> heh
16:00:03  <drac_boy> flygon tbh a lot of my lines are singles and sometimes trains are seperated only by programmable signals too
16:00:06  <drac_boy> :-)
16:00:12  <Flygon> Ah
16:00:18  <Flygon> I double track everything :p
16:00:40  <drac_boy> well its pointless tbh ;)
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16:02:31  <Flygon> Ehh
16:02:33  <Flygon> I'm lazy
16:02:55  <drac_boy> theres a thing called bidirectional signals :P
16:03:36  <V453000> I dont open everything I get to :P
16:03:43  <drac_boy> heh
16:04:28  <V453000> hm yeah that is pretty wtf to me
16:04:46  <Flygon> I do know of more advanced signalling
16:04:52  <Flygon> But I am a lazybum
16:05:03  <drac_boy> flygon in some cases I have an old route I started early on with .. then eventually build a better route but keep the old one open .. and just program the signals to deal with different trains getting difference preferences on the two routes
16:05:09  <V453000> signals are just the last bit, all other system not :p
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16:08:35  <drac_boy> can be fun to watch the old crocodile with its old+new wagons taking the new route while the modern dmu gts stuck heading up the old twisty one instead
16:10:02  <Flygon> Heh
16:10:13  <Flygon> I've made a bad habit out of futureproofing everything
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16:11:08  <drac_boy> well I prefer to get good routes rather than trying to make a very short one which wouldn't earn so much
16:11:46  <drac_boy> anyway need to go figure out some lunch, see you another time ok? ;)
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16:13:46  <Flygon> Alright
16:13:49  <Flygon> I gotta sleep
16:13:50  <Flygon> Night, peeps
16:17:48  <Yexo> <keoz> weird. I can't compile version -1.2.3, while I could compile version 1.2.3-RC1 <- any more information? error messages?
16:20:37  <keoz> Yexo : the first try was on the tar.xz tarball. I had an error. I retried but with the .gz tarball, and that time it worked. I will check it again and I tell you.
16:21:22  <Yexo> if it fails please also make sure the checksums match those on, if not, download the files again first
16:21:42  <Yexo> and thanks for testing :)
16:21:53  <keoz> np
16:27:21  <keoz> Yexo : it's fine that time. Don't know what was wrong, maybee some file corruption. Anyway it compiles normally now.
16:31:58  <Yexo> good to hear :)
16:32:31  <keoz> yeah
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16:58:03  <NGC3982> Evening.
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17:07:30  <Alberth> o/
17:07:50  <BadBrett> Is there anyway I can print the variable values from a certain callback?
17:08:18  <BadBrett> (to discover errors more easily)
17:09:22  <frosch123> <- only that
17:09:31  <frosch123> variables, but no callback results
17:10:07  <BadBrett> thanks!
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18:22:22  <LordAro> quietness
18:29:28  * NGC3982 is frustrated by ECS.
18:32:26  <Alberth> play FIRS instead
18:34:36  <LordAro> product placement on #openttd :)
18:36:38  <frosch123> yeah, play openttd!
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18:45:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24659 /trunk/src/lang (latvian.txt russian.txt) (2012-11-01 18:45:12 UTC)
18:45:21  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:22  <DorpsGek> latvian - 3 changes by Parastais
18:45:23  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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18:59:47  <NGC3982> Alberth: I know, but i got a bit tired of it.
19:00:05  <Alberth> ah, ok
19:00:26  <NGC3982> But this is a real challenge
19:00:30  <NGC3982> FIRS is dead easy.
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19:00:36  <NGC3982> Good looking, but easy.
19:00:57  <NGC3982> ECS is like the Silver Surfer of OpenTTD
19:01:12  <Alberth> you should try a Silicon Valley game script :)
19:01:57  <Alberth> I tried ECS a few times, but didn't like it much
19:02:02  <NGC3982> Btw, if i understand ECS correctly;
19:02:21  <NGC3982> Will i be able to add more glass if i add more steel?
19:02:24  <Alberth> but then again, I just like building rail networks
19:02:32  <NGC3982> Or is everything in ECS based on transporting?
19:02:33  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:02:55  <NGC3982> Alberth: :)
19:03:32  <Alberth> and nothing large scale, just ad-hoc building connections
19:04:06  <NGC3982> I see
19:04:10  <NGC3982> Got any examples running?
19:04:43  <NGC3982> I remember being new to OpenTTD and this channel, joining a serious co-op - ruining it totally.
19:04:46  <NGC3982> :D
19:05:43  <Alberth>
19:06:05  <Alberth>
19:06:26  <NGC3982> oh my
19:06:28  <NGC3982> Oh my*
19:06:44  <Alberth>
19:07:06  <Alberth>  map of the first 2
19:07:08  <NGC3982> Hehe
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19:10:04  <NGC3982> Alberth: That looks nice.
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19:11:09  <Alberth> yeah, it was the first time I played with that much water, it was quite enjoyable
19:11:19  <DanMacK> So anyone up for the enhanced bouys challenge?
19:11:43  <DanMacK> What was your percentage Alberth?
19:12:37  <Alberth> percentage?
19:13:18  <DanMacK> M assuming a map with lots of water?
19:13:37  <Alberth>  <-- and an older game
19:13:51  <Alberth> oh that percentage :)   40% iirc
19:14:14  <DanMacK>
19:14:16  <DanMacK> Cool
19:14:36  <DanMacK> I tend to use 90% myself :D
19:15:01  <Alberth> sounds like fun :)
19:15:31  <DanMacK> A lot of small islands.  Trains aren't my main method of transport
19:15:50  <NGC3982> Got damnit.
19:15:51  <NGC3982>
19:15:53  <Alberth> yeah, must be, otherwise you never get 90%
19:15:57  <NGC3982> I don't understand it!%#% ;_;
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19:16:07  <NGC3982> Alberth: NEat.
19:16:42  <Alberth> I never got further than 1981 :p
19:16:46  <DanMacK>  Hey andy
19:17:03  <Alberth> o/ mr the north
19:17:27  <DanMacK> I start a lot of games then get distracted
19:17:56  <Alberth> I tend to play just one day
19:18:16  <DanMacK> Normally by things in my early games that are out of place
19:18:32  <Alberth> hehe :)
19:19:08  <DanMacK> Then I have to research and draw that stuff... lol
19:19:32  *** MINM [] has joined #openttd
19:19:36  <Alberth> a common problem for developers, you cannot use something without getting annoyed about something that you need to fix IMMEDIATELY :)
19:20:01  *** MINM [] has quit []
19:20:05  <DanMacK> Exactly
19:20:21  * NGC3982 is getting frustrated.
19:20:21  <DanMacK> Like enhanced bouys... lol
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19:26:13  <NGC3982> andythenorth: I plead for your assistance.
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19:27:59  <andythenorth> ?
19:28:52  <NGC3982> I fail to understand how to increase the maximum allowed cargo delivered to the ECS Vehicle Factory.
19:29:04  <NGC3982>
19:29:14  <NGC3982> Is transporting >75% enough?
19:29:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so... what's the official way to start a program that it won't be killed when i exit the terminal session?
19:29:40  <Alberth> nohup Eddi|zuHause &
19:29:44  <DanMacK> Wrong industry set
19:29:59  <DanMacK> Ask George
19:30:06  <NGC3982> Oh.
19:30:27  <DanMacK> Andy does FIRS
19:30:35  <NGC3982> I actually thought he did both.
19:30:42  <NGC3982> Made*
19:31:15  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Excuse me.
19:31:19  <DanMacK> Some of his graphics are in ecs iirc but coding is all George
19:31:35  <NGC3982> Who's George?
19:32:04  <NGC3982> The thing is, i don't know if i'm doing this the right way, since i can't find wiki entries that explains it.
19:32:07  <DanMacK> The guy who did ECS :P
19:32:09  <LordAro> NGC3982: go back to your cave :P
19:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that seemed to work
19:32:33  <NGC3982> :(
19:32:55  <DanMacK> You bfound the ecs wiki right?
19:33:01  <NGC3982> Speaking of, i usually start all my linux software in a new screen, never exiting it per-say.
19:33:04  <andythenorth> gee
19:33:07  <andythenorth> doing ECS as well?
19:33:11  <NGC3982> DanMacK: Yes, i did.
19:33:12  <andythenorth> that would need a whole extra andythenorth
19:33:19  <DanMacK> Lol
19:33:55  <NGC3982> A quantum generated Boltzman Andy-brain would be a very effective solution to many things.
19:34:05  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I think you get a nohup.out with stdout now, you may want to redirect that
19:34:55  <frosch123> oh, there are other guys making grf with acronyms?
19:35:17  <andythenorth> :P
19:35:20  <NGC3982> DanMacK: The thing is, when reading the Wiki entry and experimenting with transported percentage, i'm not getting any clear message in what on earth happends with the lying cargo when exporting.
19:35:25  <andythenorth> no IIA
19:35:38  <andythenorth> hmm
19:35:38  <NGC3982> All kudos on Andy not making FIRS so (blastly) confusing.
19:35:43  <andythenorth> what to do next
19:35:45  <DanMacK> NGC3982 are you looking to increase acceptance levels?
19:35:51  <NGC3982> DanMacK: Yes.
19:35:52  <andythenorth> - FIRS economies support?
19:35:58  <andythenorth> - graphics changing over time?
19:36:00  <andythenorth> - soup?
19:36:04  <NGC3982> DanMacK: That is the main thing i want to achieve.
19:36:35  <NGC3982> Wish*.
19:36:36  <DanMacK> So having ghe industry stockpile more delivered items?
19:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> <NGC3982> Speaking of, i usually start all my linux software in a new screen, never exiting it per-say. <-- something didn't work with screen and gui apps (ssh -X) in combination
19:36:40  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Soup is good.
19:36:50  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Oh, i see.
19:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean i couldn't get gui apps to start at all
19:37:41  <NGC3982> But X works otherwise+
19:37:46  <NGC3982> -++?
19:38:08  <DanMacK> You can disable the stockpiling feature to deliver unlimited cargo
19:38:19  <NGC3982> DanMacK: That is not my intuition.
19:38:26  <NGC3982> DanMacK: And that actually makes ECS useless.
19:38:48  <NGC3982> I wish i had more knowledge in X. I'm only using Linux via SSH (non-X) connection.
19:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: i could start gui apps from an ssh -X session, but not when i ran screen in that session
19:40:10  <NGC3982> Hm
19:40:26  <DanMacK> There's no way to increase stockpiles without recoding
19:40:41  <NGC3982> DanMacK: But i notice them increasing and decreasing at times+
19:40:46  <NGC3982> Something makes it go up or down.
19:40:53  <DanMacK> Hmmm
19:40:55  <DanMacK> Pm georvge
19:41:15  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that has something to do with steady supply
19:41:15  <NGC3982> Where, and how?
19:41:19  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Oh.
19:41:25  <NGC3982> Ooh
19:41:33  <DanMacK> On the forums
19:41:42  <NGC3982> A bell in my brain went 'ding'
19:42:08  <NGC3982> In FIRS i recall something like "8t if both are delivered within two months of each other".
19:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally unrelated, but... :)
19:42:41  <NGC3982> Yes, but i guess that was something of what you ment
19:42:44  <NGC3982> Or ..something.
19:43:43  <NGC3982> ..Right?
19:44:10  <NGC3982> Don't keep me hanging, Bruder.
19:49:30  <LordAro> Hmm. I may have asked this before, but would some of you nice code-y people be nice enough to take a look at my program?
19:51:05  <Yexo> Converts (a part of) a string to a 4 bit uint. <- probably for bytes, not bits
19:51:39  <Yexo> that function is also very inefficient with "string str" as parameter, it causes a copy of the string
19:51:54  <Yexo> try "const string &str" instead
19:53:05  <Yexo> FioCreateDirectory is copied from OpenTTD. That's fine, but mind the license
19:54:05  <LordAro> yes, i meant to put licence notices in the files (and with the project)
19:54:12  <blathijs> if (dirFile) { <-- There is no else, making me think you might be suppressing errors here
19:54:14  <LordAro> (it's very useful :) )
19:54:48  <Yexo> you're mixing cout with printf, that's a bad idea
19:55:28  <LordAro> blathijs: maybe, i copied that from the internet somewhere :L
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19:55:31  <Yexo> I don't really like the use of std::string, but I guess that's personal. It feels out of place for memory buffers that are not really strings
19:56:52  <Yexo> what kind of comments do you want?
19:56:58  <LordAro> Yexo: 1) i believe i saw somewhere that "printf('\n');" was much faster than "cout << '\n';" so i used that in those places
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19:57:24  <Yexo> as soon as you mix printf and cout all performance is down the drain
19:57:34  <LordAro> 2) i quite agree, but i wanted to make the program as close to C++ as possible, rather than plain old C :L
19:57:41  <Yexo> if printf is faster (could be, haven't tested) you have to stick to only printf and never use cout
19:57:53  <LordAro> 3) comments: stuff like this :)
20:00:29  <Yexo> you never check the actual filesize, you just assume it's "big enough", ie at least 63 bytes or something like that
20:03:01  <LordAro> hmm. never thought of that :L
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20:08:57  <Alberth> LordAro: speed in context of doing IO is rubbish anyway, the IO device is always the bottleneck anyway
20:09:47  <Yexo> if you read a large by character by character, scanf is several orders of magnitudes faster than cin.
20:09:57  <Yexo> of course nothing beats reading it as one large buffer
20:10:03  <Yexo> but it can make a difference
20:10:22  <Alberth> somewhat, until you have 1 disk block usually
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20:11:05  <Alberth> ie as long as you keep the IO device busy, it's as fast as it's going to get
20:11:24  <Yexo> completely agree
20:11:35  <andythenorth> use node.js!
20:11:41  <andythenorth> it's non-blocking!
20:11:43  <Yexo> and keeping the IO device busy is a whole different thing, not something to be concerned about usually
20:11:47  <andythenorth> untrained programmers can write scalable apps!
20:11:52  <Yexo> except for special programs where you really need IO throughput
20:12:16  * andythenorth is dicking around and should write some FIRS
20:12:23  <andythenorth> what larks
20:12:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: I heard node.js is good for writing FIRS
20:12:45  <andythenorth> yeah
20:12:49  <andythenorth> it's awesome for it?
20:12:54  <andythenorth> try it and let me know?
20:13:01  <andythenorth> you can probably auto-convert the python right?
20:13:35  <Alberth> ok, but don't hold your breath, it may be a few years before I can report to you
20:13:44  <andythenorth> no you miss the point
20:13:56  <andythenorth> with node.js, *untrained programmers* can deploy yesterday
20:14:03  <andythenorth> the problem is that you know how to program :P
20:14:03  <TyrHeimdal> ottd is missing a merging signal
20:14:19  <andythenorth> ottd is missing a lemmings-style 'nuke everything' button
20:14:30  <andythenorth> peter1138: ^ you wanted to get back into openttd dev
20:14:37  <Alberth> andythenorth: oh, I should thus first unlearn programming!
20:14:39  <TyrHeimdal> turns green when the train can start to accelerate to fit into a slot on the line ahead
20:14:48  <TyrHeimdal> andythenorth: oooh! that would be fun!
20:14:51  <andythenorth> Alberth: yes, then you will be as skilled as me
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20:15:23  <Alberth> TyrHeimdal: oh that one, there are priority setups for it at
20:15:36  <Alberth> they made an art of running trains
20:15:51  <TyrHeimdal> Alberth: yeah, I know. I just wish there was an actual sign for it instead of track/sign hacks :)
20:16:14  <Alberth> TyrHeimdal: what would be the fun in that? :)
20:16:14  <TyrHeimdal> would be more realistic :)
20:16:43  <Alberth> TyrHeimdal: nah, real world has too many bugs
20:17:54  <TyrHeimdal> hehe
20:20:34  <TyrHeimdal> a signal that turns green when there is a x long slot would be enough
20:21:52  <TyrHeimdal> ...and openttdcoop is for ppl on the level of stephen hawking
20:22:13  <TyrHeimdal> they are over the top train-track-smart
20:22:40  <TyrHeimdal> iz crazeh
20:23:33  <TyrHeimdal> in a very good vay ofc
20:23:35  <TyrHeimdal> way
20:34:46  <NGC3982>
20:34:49  <NGC3982> I think this will work
20:35:00  * andythenorth missed on ')' char
20:35:03  <andythenorth> 49 times :P
20:36:29  <NGC3982> Bummer.
20:38:47  <andythenorth> hmm
20:39:21  <andythenorth> Yexo: can you help me with a FIRS issue (arable_farm.pypnml) ?
20:39:21  * Alberth sends andy ")"*49
20:39:41  <Yexo> what needs to change?
20:39:46  <andythenorth> macro INDUSTRY_OUTPUT_CARGO_2 is failing on compile
20:39:55  <andythenorth> I'll post a diff
20:40:13  <andythenorth> gah, it's a big diff :P
20:41:01  <andythenorth>
20:41:12  <andythenorth> most of it is not relevant, I just touched a lot of code
20:41:39  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "./sprites/nml/generated_pnml/arable_farm.pnml", line 152: Syntax error, unexpected token "if"
20:42:05  <Yexo> you remove all properties but not the line with "property {" on it
20:42:28  <andythenorth> ah
20:42:32  <andythenorth> yes
20:42:51  <andythenorth> actually the issue is missing '}'
20:42:54  <Yexo> yep
20:43:03  <andythenorth> :m
20:43:09  <Yexo> might also want to reversed the added space in front of that line
20:43:33  <andythenorth> done
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20:44:05  <andythenorth> I haven't encountered these if blocks before
20:44:14  <andythenorth> is that action 6?
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20:44:23  <Yexo> no, action 7 or 9
20:44:32  <andythenorth> ok
20:44:41  <andythenorth> I should learn about those before I go to far
20:44:41  <Yexo> and well, they use action 6 too
20:44:45  <andythenorth> they are required for economies
20:45:06  <andythenorth> economies mostly only touch the properties block
20:45:07  <Yexo> shouldn't be too hard to understand
20:45:53  <andythenorth> so my guess was I would wrap the entire item block in an action 7 or 9
20:46:00  <andythenorth> but this looks a bit smarter than that
20:46:10  <Yexo> you can do that too
20:46:35  <andythenorth> I had better read the docs before writing all code :P
20:46:47  <andythenorth> controversial :P
20:47:10  <andythenorth> a lot of the time with nml, I can code first, docs second :P
20:47:23  <Yexo> good :)
20:47:54  <Yexo> means it's intuitive enough not to fall back on the documentation for every line of code
20:48:30  <andythenorth> so I can just wrap the entire item block in if / else?
20:48:33  <andythenorth> is there an elif?
20:48:42  <Yexo> "else if"
20:48:57  <Yexo> and yes, you can do that
20:49:00  <andythenorth> or I could just do lots of 'if' ?
20:49:13  <andythenorth> this just checks the value of a parameter
20:49:34  <andythenorth> wonder if I can have 2 economies by 10pm :P
20:49:40  <Yexo> you can check whatever you want, but no varaction2 variables
20:50:24  <andythenorth> k
20:50:39  <andythenorth> hmm, there's no industry equivalent to disabling vehicles by setting climate 'none'
20:51:06  <andythenorth> nvm
20:51:22  <andythenorth> doesn't matter :P
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20:56:50  <andythenorth> yay
20:57:09  <andythenorth> arable farm appears / disappears from map depending on parameter
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21:02:18  <Alberth> 48 if's to go :p
21:03:57  <andythenorth> 49 copy-pastes
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21:04:02  <andythenorth> once I've worked it out
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21:04:32  <Yexo> andythenorth: does the fishing grounds even work?
21:04:41  <andythenorth> Yexo: think so, why?
21:04:48  <Yexo> produce_cargo_arrival:   THIS_ID(produce);
21:04:58  <Yexo> that callback produces exactly the same amount as there is incoming cargo
21:05:02  <andythenorth> ha
21:05:05  <Yexo> but there can't be any incoming cargo
21:05:10  <Yexo> since: accept_cargo_types: [];
21:05:15  <andythenorth> don't they produce from action 0 prop as well?
21:05:23  <Yexo> ah, of course :)
21:05:25  <andythenorth> I've been intending to look at that warning sometime :)
21:05:42  <Yexo> yes, doing that now
21:06:22  <Yexo> and done
21:06:31  <Yexo> please pull before you continue
21:07:23  <andythenorth> thanks :)
21:15:54  <andythenorth> some of the FIRS repo structure smells a bit funny now
21:16:08  <andythenorth> e.g. 'sprites/' might be better as 'src/'
21:16:18  <Yexo> that has always been the case
21:16:28  <andythenorth> and firs.pnml tells what pnml files to include, but does same for python
21:16:33  <andythenorth> and is class definitions
21:16:51  <andythenorth> I don't mind, but I'm used to it :P
21:16:53  <andythenorth> seems messy
21:17:31  <Yexo> you need another pull
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21:18:40  <andythenorth> nice
21:18:52  <andythenorth> warnings gone \o/
21:19:03  <andythenorth> now we just need to figure out lang warnings o_O
21:19:06  <Yexo> I got bored of them :)
21:19:20  <Yexo> I think quite a big part of the language warnings are valid
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21:19:26  <Yexo> ie need to get fixed, not ignored
21:19:29  <andythenorth> probably
21:19:34  <andythenorth> I'm snow blind to them
21:20:22  <andythenorth> constants in a file, right?  Not in the with the class definitions?
21:20:27  * andythenorth is adding a list of economies
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21:24:46  <Yexo> and all language warnings gone :)
21:24:54  <andythenorth> ha
21:27:46  <andythenorth> \o/
21:28:37  <Alberth> no worries, andy will find new strings to add ;)
21:28:54  <andythenorth> :P
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21:29:24  <Yexo> I only got rid of warnings where the translations were incompatible with the english version, nothing about untranslated strings
21:31:18  <LordAro> random offtopic followup: I think i've implemented all your suggestions, anything else?
21:33:33  <Yexo> nitpick: you can't relicense gpl v2 to gpl v3+ without permission
21:34:11  <Alberth> LordAro: line 22 in the .cpp seems useless, as the .h already makes std available
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21:34:31  <Alberth> I'd not import std globally though
21:34:49  <Yexo> not in a .h, in a .cpp it's not as bad
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21:36:06  <Yexo> line 77: you give an error that the file is too small (on cout instead of cerr), but you continue anyway
21:36:15  <Yexo> expect crashes later
21:36:38  <Alberth> where do you define uint?
21:37:26  <andythenorth> meh
21:37:40  * andythenorth needs to avoid too much string between python and CPP :P
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21:38:49  <Alberth> void ExtractDRSFile(string path) <-- any reason it's not "const string &path" ?
21:38:50  <Yexo> why not get rid of cpp altogether?
21:38:56  <Yexo> should be easy enough now you use python anyway
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21:39:30  <andythenorth> Yexo: just a matter of time
21:39:40  <andythenorth> meanwhile I want to migrate with 100% working code
21:39:53  <LordAro> Yexo: gpl: thought not - i'll change it, it's no issue
21:39:57  <Alberth> LordAro: cerr  is used for reporting errors normally, although windows has weird ideas about that stream :(
21:39:58  <Yexo> andythenorth: that's always good :)
21:40:02  <andythenorth> I'm not in a hurry to touch code that works right now and doesn't need changed :)
21:40:49  <Yexo> LordAro: line 98 and further: you start reading tables from the stream without checking if they fit in the buffer you've read before
21:41:39  <Yexo> line 103-105 can be replaced with: swap(tableinfos[i].extension[0], tableinfos[i].extension[2]);
21:45:39  <andythenorth> ugh
21:45:48  <andythenorth> I've invented 1 million layers of abstraction
21:45:50  <andythenorth> I dislike that
21:46:07  <Alberth> LordAro: line 79 has a different character type than line 81
21:46:51  <Alberth> line 83 will alsways only use data from the memory block?
21:46:56  <Yexo> also inconsistent with cast styles: line 81 uses a c-style cast while line 83 uses static_cast
21:47:35  <Yexo> string drstext; drstext.resize(size);, size); or something might work better
21:47:39  <Yexo> not sure if that's allowed
21:47:45  <Yexo> but at least it prevents one memcpy
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21:52:24  <Alberth> I think you should more careful checking on the data you read. You cannot trust data you get from a random file
21:54:11  <Yexo> agree with Alberth, with a "but" on the use case of the program: if it's a one-off for personal use only litter the code with some asserts about sizes, if you want even one other person to run the code, add more and better error handling
21:54:59  * Alberth agrees completely with that addition
21:56:54  <andythenorth> hmm
21:57:04  <andythenorth> no problem is too complex to solve with another class
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22:00:50  <Alberth> reduce 999994 layers of abstraction?
22:02:11  <andythenorth> reduce n+1 layers of abstraction :P
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22:03:46  <Rubidium> just prove you can't reduce 0 layers of abstraction and you can reduce from n to n-1 layers of abstraction and you're done ;)
22:04:48  <LordAro> "<Yexo>, size); or something might work better" <-- nope, 'invalid conversion from const char* to char*', any ideas?
22:05:08  <Yexo> don't use that? :p
22:05:43  <LordAro> :P
22:06:13  <Yexo> casting away the const-ness will most likely work, but it'd undefined behavior
22:07:49  <LordAro> Yexo: would this be better?, it seems to work:
22:08:24  <Yexo> yes, that's fine
22:08:36  <Yexo> still has an extra memory copy, but I guess that's unavailable if you want to use std::string
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22:09:43  <LordAro> ohp, night Alberth :L
22:10:03  <LordAro> Yexo: yes, but neater than it was :)
22:10:11  <Yexo> definitely
22:13:34  <LordAro> pushed, if you want to waste more time on my little project :)
22:14:31  <andythenorth> can I use two item() blocks to set properties, similar to using two action 0s?
22:14:38  <Yexo> got the link again?
22:14:46  <Yexo> andythenorth: yes
22:14:59  <andythenorth> great
22:15:41  <andythenorth> I didn't quite get economies done by 10pm :P
22:15:55  <andythenorth> but I've figured out framework
22:19:07  <andythenorth> don't suppose we can extend newgrf spec to give industries an explicit enable / disable property?
22:19:20  <andythenorth> makes for easier templating :P
22:19:21  <andythenorth> maybe
22:20:10  * andythenorth -> bed
22:20:12  <andythenorth> good night
22:20:23  <Terkhen> good night andythenorth
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22:29:30  <andythenorth> does an nml if statement work ok with integer logic?
22:29:42  <andythenorth> e.g. "if (param[0] == 1 || 2 || 3)"
22:30:21  <Yexo> the 2 and 3 in that context are supposed to be boolean
22:30:41  <Yexo> but in fact there is no real boolean logic in nml, it's all integer logic
22:31:01  <Yexo> false==0 and true==1, but every integer !=0 evaluates to true
22:31:07  <andythenorth> :)
22:31:12  <andythenorth> hmm
22:31:14  <andythenorth> I need to sleep
22:31:19  <andythenorth> I think I have questions tomorrow :P
22:31:31  <andythenorth> I have working economies, but fugly templating
22:31:32  <andythenorth> nvm
22:31:34  <andythenorth> sleep
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22:34:21  <LordAro> ...again
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22:42:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by yexo :: r24660 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2012-11-01 22:42:29 UTC)
22:42:36  <DorpsGek> -Feature: do not display the preview window for disabled vehicle types (Eagle_rainbow)
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23:05:39  <Terkhen> good night :)
23:05:46  <Supercheese> Vale, dormiture
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23:09:51  <Yexo> good night
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