Log for #openttd on 23rd November 2012:
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09:46:34  <Yexo> good morning
09:46:40  <NGC3982> Morning.
09:49:14  <Alberth> mornink
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11:00:24  <NGC3982> I had a dream this night
11:00:36  <NGC3982> About coding the aircraft to make real turns
11:00:51  <NGC3982> And tilting while turning.
11:01:03  <NGC3982> That'd be neat.
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11:04:43  <Noldo> you'd need quite many new sprites
11:09:34  <V453000> see CETS ...
11:10:10  <V453000> idea is nice but drawing X times more is unthinkable of ... at least to me
11:21:58  <NGC3982> Yes, of course
11:22:11  <NGC3982> And it brakes the fantastic symetry of OpenTTD
11:22:21  <NGC3982> But it was - at least - a nice dream..
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11:26:13  <V453000> well the trains do have some de-railing going on with that feature, but the result still is nice, just way too demanding
11:26:33  <V453000> might be considerable with rendered sprites, but I havent seen nice rendered sprites yet
11:27:47  <V453000> well av8 is rendered, but I bet it went through a ton of pixeling afterwards
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11:34:39  <Alberth> but they will still fly through each other :p
11:36:32  <NGC3982> I don't really understand how that works
11:38:27  <NGC3982> Really.
11:38:48  <V453000> they are in different heights. :) yet of the same size
11:38:52  <NGC3982> Sometimes, i get the feeling that you guys would be better off simply designing a new game from scratch.
11:39:30  <Alberth> throwing away 59 man years of work? :)
11:39:36  <V453000> I dont think OpenTTD would be a better game if aircraft didnt go through each other tbh
11:39:56  <Alberth> I have the same problem with 'better' graphics, tbh
11:40:22  <V453000> if you mean zbase, they are a lot worse, but more "technically advanced"
11:41:04  <Arafangion> The simpler stuff makes me feel like I have more control.
11:41:09  <Alberth> 32bpp, zbase, more zoom, personally, I don't see the point of it
11:41:28  <Arafangion> Ie, it's more amendable to manipulation.
11:41:30  <V453000> I agree Alberth
11:41:51  <NGC3982> What's zbase?
11:41:59  <V453000> most people cant even draw contrast properly; 32bpp or more pixels will only make that harder for them
11:42:15  <Alberth> NGC3982: where have you been hiding? :)
11:42:23  <NGC3982> I don't even know how 32bpp works.
11:42:27  <V453000> rock under been him
11:42:28  <NGC3982> Alberth: Hey, i like OpenTTD as it is.
11:42:29  <NGC3982> :/
11:42:42  <Alberth>   <-- NGC3982
11:42:49  <V453000> good for you :P you havent missed that much
11:43:08  <NGC3982> Well, the recent changes (at least recent to mee) have been fantastic
11:43:28  <NGC3982> Following vehicles, extra zoom, NewGRFs.
11:43:52  <NGC3982> Alberth: That post tells me it's zbase. Not what it is.
11:44:03  <NGC3982> It's a ..32bpp set?
11:44:24  <V453000> I can see some potential in 32bpp, BUT with one massive dangerous point. The 8bpp palette has colours which fit together. If you suddenly can do any colour from 32bpp spectrum, it could very easily occur that the game becomes colourful like a parrot when you mix newGRFs which use different colours. The 8bpp palette takes care of that
11:44:24  <Alberth>    it's a 32bpp base set, like opengfx
11:44:43  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
11:44:47  <NGC3982> But
11:44:56  <V453000> also drawing with 8bpp is just so much more convenient
11:45:01  <NGC3982> I don't really understand "better graphics" in that sence.
11:45:21  <NGC3982> The OpenTTD 8bpp is kind of the thing that makes it special.
11:45:24  <Alberth> perhaps we are too old :)
11:45:24  <NGC3982> At least in my book.
11:45:26  <V453000> it isnt better it is just newer
11:45:27  <NGC3982> Hehe
11:45:36  <NGC3982> Well sure, that it exists is fantastic
11:45:53  <NGC3982> But i wouldn't really enjoy the game if it was permanently replaced, for instance.
11:46:20  <Alberth> nope, I have switched back to opengfx
11:46:31  <V453000> Alberth: this isnt about getting old really. I didnt want to judge before Z. finally says this is the final version and this looks awesome to him, but .... currently it is really poor. If you do not use zoom in, most of the things feel blurred out and without any form of detail
11:46:32  <NGC3982> Would have*?
11:46:32  <NGC3982> :D
11:47:01  <NGC3982> When you say Z, i only think about an old Command & Conquer look-alike..
11:47:16  <V453000> no that would be the author of zbase, Zephyris :)
11:47:45  <V453000> either way, original ttd graphics ftw :P
11:48:17  <NGC3982>
11:48:26  <NGC3982> Zpeaking of graphicz ;-)
11:48:34  <Alberth> the younger generation grows up with 3D GL renderers, so OpenTTD just looks weird, and old
11:49:10  <V453000> well yeah that is understandable
11:49:51  <NGC3982> Well then, i guess they can join #railroadtycoon2013
11:50:28  <Alberth> what is discussed there?
11:50:41  <Alberth> people wanting a new game?
11:51:43  <Alberth> #p1sim seems a better place then ;)
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12:00:48  <__ln__>
12:01:23  <Markk> Haha
12:01:39  <Markk> A bit more bloody advanced than n+7=10, eh?
12:01:40  <Markk> :D
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12:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> only marginally :)
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12:23:06  <NGC3982> Alberth: I was refering to that OpenTTD does not really need improved graphics (that said, there is nothing wrong with new graphics), and that other games already hold the flag high on following modern graphics.
12:26:57  <__ln__> OpenTTD would need graphics at a higher resolution.
12:29:20  <NGC3982> You think so?
12:29:50  <NGC3982> I don't know what it's called, but i do enjoy that OpenTTD's "resolution" fixes itself with screen resolution increasing with modern monitors.
12:30:17  <NGC3982> That is: Higher screen resolution = bigger view
12:30:28  <NGC3982> Instead of higher resolution in the 'same view'.
12:31:33  * NGC3982 really needs to get his terminology straight.
12:33:35  <Alberth> yeah, somewhat. Did you ever try to play the entire game one zoom level further outward?
12:33:56  <Alberth> If not, why not? :)
12:37:53  <Elukka> with modern monitor resolutions, it's often more comfortable to play at 2x or even 4x zoom, i think
12:38:04  <Elukka> (and that in my mind is the best semi-recent addition to openttd)
12:38:34  <Elukka> so ideally i think the graphics would have two to four times the resolution they do have :)
12:38:39  <Elukka> i get why they don't though, and it's not really important
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13:43:04  <NGC3982> Alberth: Zoom makes it blurry and unreadable.
13:43:09  <NGC3982> Higher resolution doesn't.
13:43:54  <NGC3982> It seems like the outward zoom creates the same artifacts as when zooming in MSpaint
13:44:26  <Alberth> hmm, maybe 'outward' is ambigious here
13:44:38  <NGC3982> As an example, higher resolution does not create this havvoc of a picture:
13:44:38  <Alberth> I meant such that you have a more bird-eye view
13:45:02  <NGC3982> Alberth: I thought you made a comparison between using a higher resolution or simply zooming out.
13:45:15  <NGC3982> Im sorry if i did not understood your point. :>
13:45:22  <NGC3982> Understand*
13:45:54  <Alberth> Your claim was that you wanted a bigger view instead of higher resolution
13:46:04  <Alberth> (and same view)
13:46:16  <NGC3982> Yes, the same size, but bigger.
13:46:23  <NGC3982> As with OpenTTD right now
13:46:33  <Alberth> but eventually, the graphics then become so small you cannot see them properly any more
13:46:52  <Alberth> since the monitor resolution increases, but your eyes don't get better
13:47:14  <NGC3982> But wait, isn't that the point of not increasing in game resolution?
13:47:37  <NGC3982> Since, using OpenTTD on a bigger resolution does not seem to make things smaller, but instead making my field of view bigger.
13:48:13  <NGC3982> Or is that a faulty observation.
13:48:16  <Alberth> yes it does, since OpenTTD uses the same graphics no matter what size monitor you have
13:48:26  <Flygon> Uhh
13:48:28  <NGC3982> Ok.
13:48:39  <Flygon> Again, you can zoom in with OpenTTD with no quality loss
13:48:46  <NGC3982> So, higher resolution shouldn't really affect it?
13:48:55  <Flygon> I get the feeling the game's gonna need 16x zoom soon enough :p
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13:49:21  <Alberth> Flygon: haha, and where does it get the new pixel information from then?
13:49:23  * Flygon lugs out his 19in CRT, does 2048*1636 OpenTTD... "C'mooooooon TGBlur!"
13:49:29  <NGC3982> :D
13:50:02  <Flygon> Alberth: Framebuffer?
13:50:23  <Alberth> Flygon: that's not "with no quality loss"
13:50:36  <Flygon> I see no quality loss with using nearest neighbour zooming
13:51:23  <Alberth> Flygon: then you are not looking properly, if you don't add new information, displaying the same information enlarged will reduce quality
13:52:16  <Alberth> NGC3982: A higher monitor resolution means that the same amount of pixels (ie the same graphics) will get displayed at a smaller physicial area of the screen
13:52:50  <NGC3982> Alberth: I see.
13:53:01  <NGC3982> But
13:53:05  <Alberth> so if the monitor resolution doubles, you get 1/4 of the original size (since it doubles both in x and in Y direction
13:53:18  <NGC3982> That does not fit with my idea that the field of view increases with resolution.
13:53:48  <Alberth> the monitor area is still equally big, or even bigger
13:53:59  <NGC3982> Ok
13:54:22  <Alberth> so you can display more graphics at the same area, -> display more tiles -> 'bigger view'
13:54:49  <Alberth> but at the cost of a single tile using less space at the monitor
13:56:16  <Alberth> so to see what exactly is happening at a specific tile becomes harder, since your eyes have not increased in resolution :)
13:56:30  <Kylie> so ergo less quality Alberth
13:57:12  <Alberth> Kylie: technically not, but from a human-computer interaction point of view, I guess it is
14:03:03  <Flygon> I see absolutely no loss of quality
14:03:26  <Flygon> You can zoom in, and percieve the game just as you would @ a lower resolution
14:03:57  <Flygon> And since the game's pixel art scales well with nearest neighbour (unlike, say, 3D art), there's no real quality loss
14:13:58  <Belugas> hello
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14:17:47  <Alberth> hi Sir B
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14:25:32  <Flygon> Hello
14:25:43  <peter1138> moo
14:26:25  <Flygon> Flygon
14:29:23  <Belugas> Sir A!  sir C1138!
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14:56:41  <Terkhen> hello
14:59:18  <Alberth> hello
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15:20:22  <sponge> I'm having problems with adding a WWT_MATRIX widget. There is something about the resize of the window and its allocated area that segfaults.
15:20:32  <sponge> Can someone explain UpdateWidgetSize parameters?
15:20:43  <sponge> size, fill and resize pointers in particular.
15:21:06  <Alberth> euhm, I should be able to :)
15:21:43  <Alberth> size is the really absolutely minimal size that you need to display the contents properly
15:22:11  <Alberth> obviously, every widget has a different size, so combining them leaves holes in the window area
15:22:55  <Alberth> this is where fill comes in, it specifies in which steps the widget area may be enlarged to make the entire window area filled with widgets
15:23:12  <Alberth> this gives you the minimal window size
15:23:27  <Alberth> some windows have a resize button
15:23:34  <sponge> mine does
15:24:02  <Alberth> resize is the step size for the widget when enlarging the window
15:24:13  <sponge> what is "step size" in this context?
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15:24:26  <Alberth> number of extra pixels
15:25:05  <sponge> So, for my matrix, what should I put where?
15:25:20  <sponge> I'm used to toolkits like GTK where you get the new size request.
15:25:37  <sponge> so, I put size->width and height to 256, just for fun.
15:25:45  <sponge> what about fill and resize?
15:26:16  <Alberth> you don't get requests here, the window changes size or position, and you get redraw requests for the widgets
15:26:34  <sponge> So what's the UpdateWidgetSize for?
15:27:03  <Alberth> The GUI system copies information from the widget parts description
15:27:10  <sponge> throw me a bone here, I get a segfault when I try to display the window with the WWT_MATRIX widget in it.
15:27:24  <sponge> maybe I should leave the size update alone?
15:27:37  <Alberth> throw me a stack trace of the dump please
15:28:20  <Alberth> matrices are a bit special in that every box needs to be exactly equal in size, or it looks horrible
15:28:48  <sponge> or rather when I resize.
15:29:14  <sponge> I need a list. This list contains three columns
15:29:22  <sponge> the two first columns are dropdowns
15:29:31  <sponge> the final is a number
15:29:52  <Alberth> Did you do a SetDataTip(0x401, ... )  ?
15:30:09  <Alberth> this means 4 rows and 1 column
15:30:33  <sponge> No.
15:30:35  <Alberth> bridge_gui.cpp is a simple example
15:30:36  <sponge> Is that what it was?
15:30:43  <Alberth> quite likely
15:30:51  <sponge> Man, I thought "oh, so these guys dont even use the symbols anymore, they just use string id straight up"
15:31:17  <Alberth> as I said, matrix is a bit special
15:31:54  <Alberth> well, we've stepped away from hard-coded widget sizes :p
15:32:48  <Alberth> resize will probably only work well if you enlarge it with one box each time
15:33:24  <Alberth> and fill needs to take the number of boxes into account, or you will not end with an exact multiple
15:33:57  <sponge> How do you suggest I go about this then?
15:34:02  <Alberth> (or if you can set it to 0, and let the other widgets around fill the space)
15:34:26  <sponge> If I try to resize horizontally it segfaults
15:34:34  <sponge> thats better than before when it segfaulted in any direction.
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15:38:40  <sponge> it's official, I cannot make a columned list.
15:38:40  <sponge> you had a file that may contain useful code hints?
15:38:40  <sponge> bridge...
15:38:40  <Alberth> you don't need matrix, probably
15:38:40  <Alberth> if you want more detailed help, I need more than "it segfaults"
15:38:40  <Alberth> since that can be done in an awful lot of ways
15:38:40  <sponge>
15:38:40  <sponge> crash.log
15:38:50  <sponge> gui code
15:38:54  <Alberth> now something with line numbers :)
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15:39:36  <sponge> you dont get line numbers?
15:39:59  <sponge> I have line numbers on that paste page.
15:40:15  <Alberth> not in the stack trace of the crash
15:40:39  <sponge> how do I add -g ?
15:41:32  <sponge> --enable-debug=3 good enough?
15:41:37  <Alberth> ./configure --enable-debug=3     is what I run
15:41:46  <Alberth> but I forgot what it means :)
15:42:04  <sponge> phew. C++ takes forever to compile. I'm used to C
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15:42:26  <Alberth> 300,000 lines C also takes time :p
15:42:43  <Alberth> SetResize(1, 1)  <-- with 4x4 matrix, that cannot be right
15:42:57  <sponge> No?
15:43:05  <Alberth> it also needs a minimal size I guess
15:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember there was quite a big spike in compile time by just switching the compiler from C to C++
15:43:09  <sponge> I'v'e seen SetResize(1,0) in depot_gui
15:43:48  <sponge> Eddi|zuHause: should be. on avarage, a simple main-function in 3 lines takes a lot longer in C++ than C.
15:43:51  <Alberth> for 1 column that
15:43:56  <Alberth> 'd be right
15:44:15  <sponge> Alberth: so, SetResize to... ?
15:44:32  <Alberth> 4,4
15:44:41  <Eddi|zuHause> sponge: that doesn't really say much, it just means the overhead for C++ is bigger than for C, but doesn't say anything about the individual language features
15:45:01  <Alberth> unless you want extra rows/columns, then you want initial row/column size
15:45:21  <sponge> Eddi|zuHause: we were only talking compile speed.
15:45:37  <Alberth> sponge: you can express a lot less in 3 lines of C
15:45:48  <sponge> Alberth: setting SetResize(1,0) makes it not segfault, setting SetResize(4, 4) makes it segfault on window show
15:46:03  <sponge> Alberth: again, we're talking about the simplest main function
15:46:10  <sponge> and only compile speed, not tasks accomplished
15:46:21  <Alberth> sponge: yeah, extremely non-relevant benchmark
15:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sponge: yes, i was as well
15:47:23  <sponge> Alberth: it was just a casual notice, not a language flame work initiation
15:47:33  <sponge> s/work/war
15:48:10  <sponge> Hm, I still didnt get the line numbers in the crash stacktrace
15:48:27  <Alberth> apparently an important measurement for you, or you'd have picked a different benchmark
15:49:14  <sponge> I didn't "pick a benchmark"
15:49:17  <sponge> I'm not benchmarking
15:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> "x is faster than y" is a benchmark
15:49:47  <sponge> No, it can very well just be a casual statement.
15:49:57  <sponge> I just noted it takes a while to build, that's all.
15:53:16  <sponge> So, if I'm not using a matrix, how would I get a columned list?
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15:54:32  <Alberth> use a matrix with 1 column, and draw the 3 things in it
15:54:53  <Alberth> your code does not compile here, I am missing stuff
15:55:29  <Alberth> eg the bridge gui also does that
15:55:57  <sponge> Yeah, I havent had the strength to upload this to any repos
15:55:59  <Alberth> or alternatively, use a plain canvas, eg a panel, and draw it all in there
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15:57:17  <sponge> Seems I should be able to do it in the same manner as all the other lists.
15:57:53  <Alberth> that would be expected yeah :)
15:59:13  <sponge> the signal is a floating point exception
15:59:21  <sponge> i suspect there might be a n/0 somewhere
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16:00:37  <Alberth> run the program from the debugger?
16:01:44  <Alberth> I have to make some dinner
16:01:51  <sponge> int column_width = (r.right - r.left + 1) / num_columns;
16:02:46  <Alberth> give it some initial size?
16:02:50  <sponge> Aha.
16:03:00  <sponge> widget_data contains width and height
16:04:35  <sponge> there we go
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16:10:05  <sponge> what if it has zero rows?
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16:24:42  <MNIM>
16:24:58  <MNIM> when did Hyronymus get so... vague?
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16:48:26  * Alberth adjusts the focus
16:48:33  <Alberth> better?
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17:03:24  <MNIM> nope
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18:45:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24760 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2012-11-23 18:45:08 UTC)
18:45:15  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:16  <DorpsGek> latvian - 1 changes by Parastais
18:46:27  <Belugas> eee
18:46:32  <Belugas> hh?
18:46:35  <Belugas> oops
18:46:36  <Belugas> sorry
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19:11:59  <Kylie> question
19:17:07  <_habnabit> answer
19:17:15  <planetmaker> exclamation
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19:17:32  <Alberth> hi planetmaker, andythenorth
19:17:38  <andythenorth> bonsoir
19:17:44  <planetmaker> hallo :-)
19:21:06  <Kylie> so uh, uis thre a better way of stn waypoints apart from a station of the same type as the vehicle and setting that to go via ?
19:22:15  <andythenorth> meh
19:22:19  <andythenorth> forums are dull today
19:22:21  <Alberth> send directly would be better, I think :)
19:22:26  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:22:46  <Kylie> Alberth: rephrase
19:23:22  <Alberth> Kylie: that's ambigiuous
19:23:43  <Alberth> do you rephrase, or should I ?
19:24:28  <Kylie> you
19:25:33  <Alberth> you asked for a better way than stn waypoints, I think sending directly (ie without detours or intermediate points) is better
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19:27:00  <Kylie> ah
19:27:01  <Kylie> k
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19:50:28  <Alberth> andy, you are aware of glitching industry sprites when enabling transparency in firs 3226?
19:51:58  <planetmaker> Alberth, is that with the fences issue, some sprites showing the question mark sprite?
19:52:43  <frosch123> did you find the bug meanwhile?
19:52:52  <frosch123> is it a firs or a nml issue?
19:53:39  <Alberth> some sort of blue-ish wave
19:53:49  <frosch123> using ogfx?
19:53:55  <frosch123> it has a blue questionmark
19:53:55  <Alberth> yes, the nightly
19:54:10  <frosch123> Alberth: it's the questionmark sprite which is shown for invalid sprites
19:54:25  <Alberth> yeah I realize that now
19:57:36  <_habnabit> is there a hotkey for 'close all unpinned windows'
19:57:58  <frosch123> del
19:58:05  <frosch123> ctrl+del to also close pinned ones
19:58:09  <_habnabit> huh, wow
19:58:10  <frosch123> or was it shift+del?
19:58:20  <andythenorth> frosch123: the bug I can reproduce is a FIRS issue
19:58:31  <andythenorth> or at least, it's not present in older FIRS revs
19:58:57  <andythenorth> I have no idea what I changed though, this is old code that should just work :p
19:59:25  <frosch123> well, i failed in finding the spritelayouts in firs src :p
19:59:38  <frosch123> too much python magic going on
20:00:24  <andythenorth> these are simple old spritelayouts
20:00:25  <andythenorth> no magic
20:02:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: the broken layout is SPRITELAYOUT_FENCES_NORMAL_SNOW
20:03:00  <andythenorth> in
20:05:15  *** Sturmi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05:42  <frosch123> ah, the THIS_ID are wrong
20:06:38  <frosch123> SPRITELAYOUT_FENCES_NORMAL_SNOW looks like it only works for groundsprites which are default sprites
20:06:49  <frosch123> not for spritesets
20:09:11  <frosch123> the macro even does a LOAD_TMP
20:09:24  <frosch123> so, i guess it does not work for default ground sprites either?
20:09:37  <andythenorth> I don't know :)
20:10:43  <frosch123> well, i agree, it's a firs bug :p
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20:10:53  <frosch123> now i know why nml created such weird looking code :)
20:11:01  <planetmaker> yes... and likely I wrote that :-P
20:12:30  <frosch123> maybe it's just enough to remove the LOAD_TEMP
20:18:09  <andythenorth> those templates are double-deprecated :P
20:18:20  <andythenorth> they were supposed to be replaced by the templates I'm replacing :P
20:18:41  <planetmaker> I guess that's why I wanted them seen replaced: buggy ;-)
20:18:49  <planetmaker> and wrote the new old ones ;-)
20:20:42  <frosch123> 700 MB to go
20:20:56  <frosch123> updating my wheezy vm, so i can compile firs again
20:22:44  *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has joined #openttd
20:23:19  <planetmaker> :D
20:23:25  <planetmaker> what's your HV?
20:23:53  <frosch123> nv?
20:23:56  <frosch123> hv?
20:25:30  <planetmaker> hyper visor :-)
20:25:35  <planetmaker> or the parent OS
20:25:42  <frosch123> squeeze
20:25:48  <planetmaker> ah :-)
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20:27:17  <peter1138> As is the only way...
20:28:07  <planetmaker> I can well imagine to have other *nix there ;-)
20:28:34  <peter1138> My parent OS is... Windows 7...
20:29:09  <frosch123> my mother has no computer
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20:41:26  <Alberth> ;)
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21:24:40  <krinn> hi guys,
21:26:31  <krinn> clicking on ? then on a tile i get a town name that own that tile
21:27:51  <frosch123> not when you are far away from any town
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21:28:35  <krinn> the problem is i really don't know how to get that in noai
21:28:49  <krinn> we have 3 functions that appears the same but gave 3 different results
21:28:57  * andythenorth -> bed
21:28:59  <andythenorth> bye
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21:29:22  <krinn> AITown.GetTownAuthority AITown.GetClosestTown and AITile.IsWithinTownInfluence
21:29:49  <frosch123> the information in the landinfo tool matches ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority
21:30:29  <krinn> so we have case where a tile influence a town and isn't own by the town ?
21:31:13  <frosch123> IsWithinTownInfluence and GetTownAuthority return different things, check the documentation
21:31:37  <krinn> i am, but honestly it's not clear
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21:32:17  <frosch123> IsWithinTownInfluence: servicing of stations in this area affects town rating
21:32:23  <krinn> to make it easy: what function should i use to get tiles where i could put my station, and that station rating influence the town
21:32:24  * LordAro waves to all
21:32:31  <frosch123> GetTownAuthority: rating in town affects construction actions
21:32:56  *** bassals [] has joined #openttd
21:33:29  <frosch123> and is checked for construction actions
21:33:48  <frosch123> IsWithinTownInfluence depends on the size of the town
21:34:06  <frosch123> GetTownAuthority depends on difficulty settings
21:34:35  <krinn> you mean a station within towninfluence increase the town rating, even built outside townauthority ?
21:34:40  <planetmaker> hi LordAro
21:34:42  <planetmaker> and hi bassals
21:34:47  <krinn> hi LordAro
21:35:00  <frosch123> yes
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21:36:07  <frosch123> hmm, GetTownAuthority might even not depend on any difficulty
21:36:14  <frosch123> it seems to be a config-file only setting
21:36:42  <planetmaker> bassals, you asked me something about translations recently... what exactly was it?
21:36:45  <krinn> well, something isn't working right, i have a station that doesn't answer to withintowninfluence while the info say it should
21:37:09  <frosch123> anyway, GetTownAuthority is always a single town
21:37:21  <frosch123> IsWithinTownInfluence can be many towns
21:37:28  <krinn> i use IsWithinTownInfluence for my checks
21:37:51  <frosch123> [22:29] <frosch123> the information in the landinfo tool matches ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority
21:38:30  <krinn> but as describe: you get get a tile within influence but not within townauthority, but the inverse is not possible
21:38:54  <frosch123> what?
21:39:14  <krinn> a tile within townauthority could only be within towninfluence, while a tile within towninfluence may not be within townautority
21:39:34  <frosch123> they are both separate things
21:39:37  <frosch123> nothing implies the other
21:39:49  <krinn> wonder why i'm lost now ?
21:40:17  <Eddi|zuHause> town authority has a fixed radius, town influence is dependent on population
21:40:43  <krinn> but townauthority raduis could only be <= towninfluence raduis no ?
21:40:52  <frosch123> no
21:40:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (my personal imagination, did not check any code)
21:41:19  <bassals> yes planetmaker, it's simply that you told me that when you guys need to discuss something about the german translation
21:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> really small towns may have really low influence radius, smaller than authority
21:41:36  <bassals> you use a forum I think I remember
21:41:40  <frosch123> first of all, authority is a manhattan thingie
21:41:46  <frosch123> influence is euclidian
21:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> all norms are equivalent :)
21:42:22  <frosch123> authority is the same radius for all towns
21:42:32  <frosch123> influence is 0 for 0 population
21:42:36  <frosch123> and huge for huge populations
21:42:45  <krinn> my town test have 599 pop
21:43:01  <krinn> can put a screenshot if you wish
21:43:04  <bassals> Eddi|zuHause: not from the metric point of view
21:43:16  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: ah, feature request: when building an airport, pick the town with the largest influence to check against the noise rating
21:43:53  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: aren't all towns checked?
21:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause> bassals: norms are "eqivalent" when there exist constants m and M which suffice the equation m*||x||_1 <= ||x||_2 <= M*||x||_1 for all x
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21:44:17  <planetmaker> bassals, yes,
21:44:22  <krinn> frosch123, there's something odd there, really
21:44:24  <planetmaker> there's a thread about the German translation
21:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: not sure, i'd expect only the closest town is checked
21:44:30  <planetmaker> in general openttd
21:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: at least i could not build an airport in a place i really would have liked one :)
21:45:21  <planetmaker> you could also call it ;-)
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21:45:32  <bassals> Eddi|zuHause: this means topologically equivalent
21:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> bassals: yes :)
21:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's an inequation anyway...
21:46:27  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ah, yeah, it only affects one town
21:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> bassals: in finite-dimensional space, all norms are equivalent
21:46:59  <frosch123> shortest manhattan distance of any airport tile (i.e. not necessarily north tile) to town sign
21:47:01  <bassals> but this only means that the open sets are the same
21:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> (which especially means if a number-series converges in one norm, it converges in all norms, to the same point)
21:47:21  <frosch123> krinn: take tha magic bulldozer, kill all houses, and check whether iswithininfluence is really small
21:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think when i played last, it was only the north tile
21:47:58  <bassals> okay planetmaker but I thought that only English was allowed in tt-forums
21:48:24  <planetmaker> bassals, yes :-) You can, of course, discuss in English other languages :-)
21:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause> bassals: the conversation is in english, but the translation strings are of course in german :)
21:48:37  <bassals> oh
21:48:51  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that must have been long ago, iirc it was already like that in 0.6 or 0.7
21:48:51  <planetmaker>
21:48:59  <bassals> excuse me but that is horrible
21:49:41  <planetmaker> discussing a translation in English? Stupid? Maybe. Horrible? Certainly not
21:49:57  <frosch123> bassals: check out how many non-native speakers particpate in that topic and the topics of other languages :p
21:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> bassals: it was more practical than a thread in the german forum, which has fewer regular users, and many of which aren't fluent enough in english to be at help for translations
21:50:17  <planetmaker> ^^
21:50:21  <bassals> okay...
21:50:53  <krinn> found a free image hosting, will show that
21:50:58  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: any they are also not good at german orthography
21:51:02  <planetmaker> krinn,
21:51:08  <planetmaker> if you only need to quickly show sth
21:51:17  <krinn>
21:51:17  <planetmaker> and don't require permanent storage
21:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i tried to be polite in what i wrote :)
21:51:56  <planetmaker> krinn, that's as fast as a snail :-)
21:52:09  <krinn> wow lol yes just saw, what a slow thing
21:52:13  <krinn> will try the imagebin
21:52:33  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the
21:52:49  <frosch123> that was the enter key
21:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause> happens to me often :)
21:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> especially while trying to type ' :)
21:53:42  <krinn>
21:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally also trying to hit backspace
21:53:54  <frosch123> anyway, distribution of users between forums is usually quite imballanced
21:54:04  <krinn> the tile info is the lowest right part of the airport
21:54:47  <krinn> and the checks inside the ai console is done with AITown.IsWithinTownInfluence
21:55:23  <krinn> don't you think that tile should be inside at least (or any other tiles as i check all tiles from the station)
21:56:41  <krinn> it works for many stations, so i'm sure the function itself is ok, but some stations, like that airport fail
21:56:47  <frosch123> let's see, i count 21 hourses
21:57:09  <frosch123> that gives a town mass of 5
21:57:22  <krinn> could count, town report 5 houses
21:57:31  <krinn> could count, town report 21 houses sorry
21:57:34  <frosch123> that gives a squared euclcidian distance for towninfluence of 64
21:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so 8 tiles
21:57:57  <frosch123> so, euclidian radius of 8 tiles
21:58:03  <Alberth> planetmaker:  and this glitch?
21:58:23  <frosch123> that might catch 3 tiles of the airport
21:58:37  <frosch123> or maybe 6
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21:59:55  <krinn> as you see in the console it report that station as not inside the town influence
22:00:18  <frosch123> yes, for the rating influence the station sign matters
22:00:24  <frosch123> and it is clearly out of range
22:00:43  <frosch123> huge stations like airports are a bit imbalanced there :p
22:00:55  <frosch123> build the airport on the south side of the town, and it is within influence
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22:01:14  <krinn> except south is full of water
22:01:17  <frosch123> scales in the game are that broken :p
22:01:58  <Alberth> good night
22:02:04  <krinn> and isn't it a bit hard that airport isn't in the area of influence, lol cannot be closer to town house/road
22:02:39  <frosch123> well, if the airport is bigger than the town :p
22:03:04  <frosch123> maybe the airport influences the town, and not the other way around :p
22:03:25  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
22:03:33  <krinn> i get passenger, and airport is rate 80% for mail/pass
22:03:47  <frosch123> anyway, the api functions are correct
22:03:58  <frosch123> just the game mechanics are weird :p
22:04:22  <krinn> so weird as the airport was built depending on town noise acceptance
22:05:30  <krinn> anway i'm facing i could built the airport to do A->B but unable to do A->C as the airport then is report ouside A influence :(
22:06:03  <frosch123> why do you bother so much about influence btw?
22:06:05  <krinn> and of course, then it fail because building another airport in A is not possible with noise level
22:06:11  <frosch123> isn't that completely unimportant?
22:06:28  <krinn> it is if you want reuse it to build a A->C route
22:06:48  <frosch123> what does influence have to do with routes?
22:06:51  <bassals> planetmaker: actually there is just 1 person that I need to contact
22:06:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so... why does dosbox screw up my screen resoltion?
22:06:58  <bassals> there is just one translator
22:06:59  <frosch123> it's just about whether the town likes you
22:07:04  <krinn> for me route is just routing passenger from A to B
22:07:30  <bassals> i won't create a thread just for that
22:07:45  <krinn> you are an AI frosch123 for an AI you must know if a station near a town met your critera to use it, and having that station influencing the town is the critera
22:07:45  <bassals> is there a way to contact to another user through his (unified?) translator account?
22:08:45  <krinn> i could built another airport, if the town allow me, now the town rating for my AI is at exceptional, but still noise level disallow me to built another airport
22:09:25  <frosch123> krinn: well, maybe if the town influence is so small it should not have an airport in the first place?
22:10:33  <krinn> the bigest town have 2073 people, i won't say that town is a kick ass one, but at that year, 599 isn't that bad
22:12:30  <krinn> so, there's no solve?
22:12:53  <krinn> i could built one, but i won't then find it as a valid airport to reuse with current API functions ?
22:13:33  <frosch123> you could try the influcence of all airport corners
22:13:46  <krinn> i try all tiles of the airport
22:13:51  <frosch123> technically you want to check the catchment area of the station
22:14:46  <krinn> impossible, i may get answer my catchment got passengers from another town next to it, this won't answer THAT town then
22:15:03  <planetmaker> bassals, not all people who discussed in the German translation thread are registered translators
22:15:36  <krinn> shouldn't influence area be at least = authority area ?
22:16:06  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: why?
22:16:22  <krinn> just because it would be logic no ?
22:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> which part of the game is actually logical :)
22:16:49  *** Stimrol [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no, seriously, why?
22:17:03  <krinn> it doesn't look logic to have a tile authority to a town (so building on it influence rating in town) that doesn't influence station rating over that same town
22:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the what what?
22:17:54  <bassals> it would not be good if some registered translators did not read the discussions...
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22:18:17  <krinn> because if i destroy a tree in that tile the town will hate me, and building a station there, the town don't care about the station then
22:18:31  <planetmaker> yes... which language?
22:18:46  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: ah i see...
22:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but why would an airport in the far outskirts of a small town  increase the town rating?
22:19:48  <bassals> ?
22:19:56  <krinn> i also not get that, that airport is influencing the town
22:20:17  <krinn> how can my AI get exceptional rating with that town without this airport, no other station are there
22:20:19  <planetmaker> which is the language you translate to, bassals ?
22:20:28  <bassals> Catalan
22:20:36  <bassals> I am Catalan ;-)
22:21:14  <krinn> and Eddi|zuHause please, "in the far outskirts", seriously did you see where the airport is :)
22:22:21  <planetmaker> I see 5 registered translators there...
22:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: well, frosch123 already said the game mechanics are weird there...
22:22:48  <bassals> only two contributed the past 4 weeks
22:23:10  <planetmaker> ok, you and whom?
22:23:28  <bassals> you know like in
22:23:31  <planetmaker> I'll send him an e-mail to contact you. I think it'd not be appropriate to give out e-mail addresses due to privacy concerns
22:23:34  <krinn> maybe, but that "glitch": influence of station area < town authority area don't hurt you ?
22:23:44  <bassals> okay
22:23:50  <bassals> thank you
22:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i do not see a problem with that
22:24:30  <krinn> it's like having a guess in your house you don't see, only if he start to break your sofa
22:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> just that only the station sign is considered, not all edges of the station
22:25:02  <krinn> so the town see you are destroying the tile to build the station, and hate you for that, but then don't see the station built
22:25:37  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i still don't see a problem with that
22:25:45  <krinn> well, i could provide the savegame, more than the area of the airport are own tiles
22:26:01  <krinn> the title tile of airport also report to be own by town
22:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you rent a room that you don't use to someone, of course you don't care what he does, as long as he does not break things
22:27:23  <krinn> it's more you rent the room and he came and break things, you fucking shout at him and he stop and stop where he is, and you ignore him while he keep offering you money
22:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you see him on the street and he greets regularly, then you notice him and get to like him, but if he's so far outside that you don't see him, then you won't take notice of him
22:29:20  <krinn> he isn't that far, as soon as he break something you notice him :)
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22:34:42  <krinn> well, i made my point, if you don't see where there's a problem, must comes from me so
22:36:09  <krinn> i will be able to check against this rare case adding a authority checks if influence fail, but that looks odd, but just for me it seems
22:36:53  <frosch123> i still don't get why you are using those functions in the first place
22:37:10  <frosch123> the concept of "airport belongs to town" is just weird to me
22:37:57  <krinn> because you cannot built an airport like that
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22:38:25  <krinn> an airport belongs to a town : because when trying it, you must get sure to whom it will belong as you must know per example town rating and town noise level
22:39:03  <krinn> you are an AI, you cannot see others airports
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23:21:52  <krinn> good night all
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