Log for #openttd on 25th November 2012:
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00:04:25  <drac_boy> hi
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00:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> birds tend to not fly manhattan-distance :)
00:21:14  <drac_boy> heh?
00:27:05  <Flygon> MNIM: Sorry, fell asleep x:
00:27:50  <Flygon> You and I play very diffrently x3
00:28:05  * drac_boy pokes flygon with a shovel from the Red Devil
00:28:07  <drac_boy> :p
00:29:21  <Flygon> drac_boy:
00:29:30  <Flygon> The wonders of Google Image Search
00:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause>,_Eisenbahnungl%C3%BCck_zwischen_Ferdinandshof_und_Borkenfriede.jpg&filetimestamp=20081209172715
00:30:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the wonders of actually knowing where stuff is...
00:30:16  <drac_boy> flygon....funny NOT! -_-
00:30:24  <Wolf01> 'night all
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00:30:35  <Flygon> drac_boy: Considering nobody was actually (seriously) injured in the incident
00:30:54  <Flygon> The whole backstory behind the incident is fascinating
00:30:55  <drac_boy> ic...empty train move or it was just about to be loaded?
00:31:05  <Flygon> Basically: The train forgot to put on its own handbrake
00:31:09  <Flygon> The EMU, that is
00:31:58  <Flygon> So it went downhill for around 50km, going up to 110km/h through curves and crossings designed for 55km/h, and Metrol actually had zero physical sightings of the train. They required third party wittnesses to figure out what is going on.
00:32:30  <Flygon> About the only solution they could come up with on-time is to route it onto a country platform. They didn't know a V/Line locomotive was parked there.
00:32:44  <drac_boy> flygon mind you there was one particular historic accident I did kinda find interesting..
00:32:58  <Flygon> Basically, V/Line staff jumped out, EMU crashed, EMU car got scrapped and the locomotive... needed a new windscreen and tyres
00:33:01  <Flygon> And that's about it @_@
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00:33:13  <Flygon> Despite the entire set being pushed back 20 meters by the force
00:34:16  <drac_boy> shunter moving freight wagons around with diffrent cuts sitting either on the main line or in the loop .. somehow one of the unbraked cut managed to flee and to make things worser outside the siding block was a bit of downgrade ...
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00:34:58  <Flygon> (Metrol didn't actually know if there was people inside the EMU... luckily, nobody was really inside, since most disembarked at the terminus)
00:35:49  <Flygon> Urg, brb
00:35:51  <Flygon> Gotta shunt some cars
00:35:57  <Flygon> Someone's mowing
00:35:58  <drac_boy> several freight wagons found themself all splat up into pieces into an occupied loco-hauled (note THAT thankfully) passenger train ... and even before the court was able to start the switchman was quite ill with grief that he had to be execused from his job immedately .. post-court he was assigned to a different working
00:36:14  <drac_boy> noone was really at was just too many years of minor violations and whats-not building up over time
00:36:49  <Pinkbeast> "Signalman's Morning" tells of some nasty near-misses involving slip coaches
00:37:24  <drac_boy> and that particular freight siding? signals were rebuilt and they put a new derail trap just by the top of the slope so if such an event was to happen again the wagons would had just simply crashed into grassy ground one second later instead of actually rolling away
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00:39:24  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast slip coaches .. that these strange uk coaches that could be cut off on fly and were more or less selfbraked-able
00:39:30  <drac_boy> or am i wrong?
00:39:43  <Pinkbeast> Yes, except very definitely selfbraked-able
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00:40:33  <drac_boy> I never really understood them but then I'm more interested in matching locomotives and trains for entire routes which is what that slipcoach thing contrasts with
00:41:15  <Pinkbeast> There's a lot of good stuff in those books, like the tendency for express crews to lob notes wrapped around lumps of coal onto the platform so the signalman could phone ahead... in one case saying "lost coal shovel, firing by hand"
00:41:56  <Pinkbeast> Well, the motivation's clear - steam's rotten acceleration. If you can drop off pax without stopping, glee!
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00:42:31  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast actually some of the smaller usa locomotives had no problem with fast accerlation so its somewhat pretty much just uk
00:42:58  <Flygon> Back
00:43:16  <Pinkbeast> Hardly, no; there are quite fundamental reasons why steam has poor acceleration.
00:43:42  <Pinkbeast> ... and no locomotive-hauled train can possibly accelerate like a modern EMU
00:43:45  <Flygon> drac_boy: Yeowch. Sounds quite painful. x:
00:43:54  <drac_boy> interestingly enough for a few years on one commuter operation it was powered almost all by bumped-off-mainline powers and the several times they tried to fetch diesel replacements even from emd they all failed in accrlation and were either sold back or reassigned to non-rush timetables
00:44:00  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: What about a steam car? :p
00:44:20  <drac_boy> the stations were barely kilometers apart or less .. so that goes to show you what THEY thought about locomotive accerlations!
00:44:39  <Flygon> Why not multi-head the locomotives?
00:44:47  <Pinkbeast> I've only been on Elizabeth the steam bus in Whitby and she gets up to speed in a leisurely, lady-like fashion
00:45:11  <drac_boy> Flygon that means one less coach to haul which on a commuter railroad is a bit of a backward idea ;)
00:45:12  <Flygon> In Victoria, we have branchline locomotives working mainline passenger by push-pull, for example
00:45:25  <Flygon> Then have the locomotives go over the platform
00:45:43  <Pinkbeast> Tends to lead to issues with overlapping points
00:45:47  <Flygon> A 6 car long platform? Use the 6 passenger cars :p
00:45:49  <Flygon> Ah
00:45:54  <Flygon> I see
00:46:17  <Flygon> It's never been seen as a huuuuge issue here, provided you planned the trip well
00:46:30  <Flygon> And I've been on several trains with more carriages than platform
00:46:35  <Pinkbeast> Well, if the station's built with the overhang in mind - you're fine.
00:46:46  <drac_boy> Flygon the point was .. it was eg a single 4-6-2 hauling 14 coaches .. and they could sure get up to speed quite fast still .. meanwhile the attempt with either emd GP9 or FM road etc all kept coming up too slow and short ... so steam had to stay for the reason of being better with accerlation
00:46:48  <Flygon> Hmm
00:47:06  <Flygon> Either way, it explains some of the exhaustively confusing point sets in some stations
00:47:12  <drac_boy> and even then .. eventually they finally got budd to build them several bilevel coaches for non-rush trains
00:47:32  <Pinkbeast> You get that here, but of course it's that the platform being shorter than the "normal" length, so the points are positioned appropriately
00:47:33  <Flygon> drac_boy: I see
00:47:49  <Flygon> When WCR used steam in the 90s and 2000s, they had an unusal problem
00:48:30  <Flygon> The steam locomotives they used actually had pretty poor acceleration, but pretty fantastic top speed. So they ended up using the (what's suppose to be backup) MU controls to use an old T or P class Diesel to accelerate faster
00:48:53  <Flygon> If both engine were put to full throttle, you'd probably help give some of the older EMU's some run for money :p
00:49:00  <drac_boy> Flygon of course there was another slight funny thing that was to do with the Rock Island commuters .. sometimes they would be a bit short on power allocation so they'll just book some of the freight locomotives instead ... and of these the few particular alco ones had one slight silly thing..
00:49:23  <Flygon> Heh...
00:49:29  <Psyk> excuse me, but what is MU and EMU? :]
00:49:31  <Flygon> I know exactly what you mean
00:49:43  <Flygon> Psyk: Multiple-unit, and Electrical Multiple Unit
00:50:00  <Flygon> The latter usually refers to cars that are self-propelled (no locomotive)
00:50:00  <Psyk> thanks
00:50:22  <Psyk> "language barrier" and "shortcut barrier" :)
00:50:29  <Flygon> The former usually refers to multiple locomotives working together (regardless of the type of engine used)
00:50:34  <Psyk> shortcut barrier is even worse
00:50:45  <Flygon> Welcome to the world of foamer speak
00:50:48  <drac_boy> they only could go up to 45mph no more .. but here's the catch .. they really could accerlate on a dime so for the short platform intervals they actually worked out ok .... load passenger ... start off .. before the train could even clear the platform its already hitting 45 like "GOOD GRIEF, HANG ONTO YOUR HATS!!" from anyone still on platform :p
00:51:06  <Flygon> drac_boy: Hahaha, nice
00:51:06  <drac_boy> so....crappy top speed but .. could clear stations too fast ;)
00:51:20  <Pinkbeast> Here EMU and DMU implies not just self-propelled but, well, multiple; you can join them together.
00:51:31  <drac_boy> Flygon thats what you get for lot of hp through low freight gearings .... :)
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00:51:41  <Pinkbeast> And MU would mean "EMU or DMU", never multiple locomotives
00:52:11  <Flygon> Here, most passenger and freight locomotives are interchangable. Probably because they all have similar horsepower and top speed ratings (1500 to 3500 range for hp, and 115 to 130km/h for top speed, 100km/h for T/P class)
00:52:28  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Regional variance?
00:52:43  <drac_boy> flygon about passenger trains...
00:52:47  <Pinkbeast> Flygon: that's pretty well been the case since the end of steam most places - it's only steam that tends to need a difference
00:53:01  <Pinkbeast> drac: this is just a grossly overpowered locomotive for the job, though.
00:53:30  <Pinkbeast> Frex the Class 91 here is used for express pax (designed for 140mph) but has a flat cab for freight workings at the other end.
00:53:44  <Pinkbeast> Anyway, AFK for 10 minutes or so
00:53:57  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Whenever there's a letter added, I've always seen it as self-propelled. When it's just 'MU', I see it as locomotives
00:54:07  <drac_boy> they were a bit rare (especially know how using a camera outside the tench during war was like I imagine) but during middle and late WWII when any request for new locomotives almost always were declined railroads had to shop for surplus/sidelined power from other roads even if they didn't like it .. after all tractive was tractive in a way ...
00:54:11  <Flygon> We'd have dual-cabbed streamliners here... flatend is shunt only
00:54:19  <drac_boy> in many cases it caused a lot of odd things you would never see non-war
00:54:56  <drac_boy> like how about finding a 1911-dated heavy mountain coal drag mallet being pressed into powering a santa fe train through calfornia?
00:55:27  <Flygon> Oh jeeze O_O
00:55:35  <Pinkbeast> Ah, the Class 91 is in practice dual-cabbed streamliner because on pax workings there's always a DVT on the other end (an identically shaped object with a cab and no engine)
00:55:47  <drac_boy> it may had been able to haul an endless strong of troop coaches on its own easily .. but it was rather slow for the flatland lines nevertheless ... by the late 1945 they were immedately scrapped like as if that was obvious!
00:56:19  <drac_boy> late 1945 you could slowly start ordering locomotives again .. so made sense
00:56:42  <Pinkbeast> Huh, WW2 saw a lot of new-build here, just mostly 2-8-0 Austerities and the like. (And the Merchant Navies, but Bulleid was a bit mad)
00:56:48  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: You can't easily get away with engineless cab driving here. Unions would go nuts, the media would beat the crap out of it, and passengers would be terrified for their safety. Push-pull is very popular here (or just D/EMU operation).
00:56:52  <drac_boy> flygon some railroads were really pinched to get any power to handle a overwheming amount of war trains anyway
00:57:29  <Flygon> drac_boy: It's a shame the preservation movement didn't exist then
00:57:30  <Pinkbeast> Flygon: I think you must misunderstand me somehow because there isn't really any safety implication
00:58:07  <Flygon> Not surprised speed was awful on flats, though :p
00:58:26  <drac_boy> flygon one crazy side about WWII tho was .. there were very little oil pipelines so a lot of oil had to go by trains .. and many (as stories told) of the tank cars were pulled out of the storage yard .. given just enough patchup to run ... a few trips they're back with problems .. patched up and sent out ... and repeat
00:58:32  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: In case of an accident, driving cab-end will cause the weight of the locomotive from behind to crash into the carriages
00:58:52  <Flygon> In push-pull, a locomotive, no matter which end driven, can absorb much of the force
00:58:55  <drac_boy> no wonder that when the pipelines were improved and trucks got better .. tank cars were finally sidelined by the thousands which was just as well .. they were literally running off their axles
00:59:31  <Flygon> drac_boy: MacGyver would have a great job then. Duct tape repairman
00:59:34  <drac_boy> "patch patch and more patch!" as one person remarked
00:59:47  <drac_boy> metal shortage was a chronical problem
01:00:20  <Flygon> Not surprising
01:00:31  <drac_boy> flygon of course you can't forget one thing that helped usa a lot probably.... the GG1's
01:00:33  * Flygon glances at Wooden Fighter Jets
01:00:42  <Flygon> Ah, yes, those
01:00:46  <drac_boy> electrification during the 30's ... then suddenly crunched big-time by all the passengers during the 40's
01:00:47  <Flygon> I'm not entirely surprised :)
01:02:39  <drac_boy> flygon theres' one slight funny story tho... the PE system in calfornia? during war there was a lot of freights that they had to requelish a lot of small steamers (think 0-6-0 switcher etc, don't forget a lot of the tracks had sligth tight street curves in them) .. but because the signals were activated by overhead wire contact .. such trains had to be paired with at least one boxcab
01:03:05  <drac_boy> so nothing like a photo of a 0-6-0 plodding by with a 'dead' electric boxcab in tow followed by at least 30 or more random freight wagons
01:03:27  <drac_boy> they didn't have enough of their own electric locos to go around with with all the tonnages
01:03:40  <Flygon> @_@ Wow
01:04:05  <Flygon> I guess it was impractical to install pantographs onto the steam engines? (coal-less heating anyone?)
01:04:33  <drac_boy> Flygon actually...the signal circuits started from the overhead line and went down to the rails .. so I don't think a dummy trolley arm would ever work anyway
01:04:46  <Flygon> Ah, I see
01:04:48  <Flygon> Fun
01:05:01  <drac_boy> flygon either way there was one little interesting footnote...
01:06:13  <drac_boy> N&W was pretty much a coal+freight railroad with almost no passenger trains to its name (a few 'locals' maybe basically) .. then uddenly during WWII they were pressed into having to deal with more than twentyfold passenger loading
01:06:21  <Pinkbeast> Switzerland did, during the war, install pantographs on steam shunters to heat water
01:06:32  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: That's where I got the idea
01:06:54  <Flygon> drac_boy: I can't imagine how overjoyed they'd have been :p
01:07:08  <Pinkbeast> And re the earlier thing, remember we already had the Class 43, with a locomotive on each end, so whichever way around the set is in a crash, there's a locomotive behind you.
01:07:51  <drac_boy> flygon not so much tbh ... few stations on top of having to fetch a lot of new passenger crews (that includes conductors) from other railroads .... if there were any not drafted oversea
01:07:53  <Pinkbeast> ... of course we made heavy use of banking locomotives during steam, which conversely are nice because if the train separates the back half doesn't run away downhill
01:08:14  <Flygon> I was being sarcastic, drac_boy :p
01:08:18  <drac_boy> flygon :p
01:08:51  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast interestingly enough a lot of the northeast usa trains choosed to have the helper as pilot locomotives ... not everyone used or wanted to use a banker
01:08:57  <drac_boy> even NYC just as well
01:09:06  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Again, actually crashing with a locomotive and not a lightweight carriage will absorb a lot of the impact. The damage caused by the rear locomotive is reduced significantly.
01:09:32  <Pinkbeast> Ah, but the DVT's designed as a giant crumple zone
01:09:46  <drac_boy> nothing like watching a train doing 55mph uphill with the standard EA-EB-EA power being assisted by a 4-8-4 cut in just ahead of the baggage
01:10:06  <Pinkbeast> It came out because at the time you weren't allowed to carry pax in the front vehicle above 100mph _at all_, no crash resistance standard for that.
01:10:15  <Pinkbeast> Whereas modern *MUs do it.
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01:10:49  <Pinkbeast> drac: Well, a banker's a nuisance if all you have to communicate with is whistle codes
01:10:54  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Considering the area I'm in lacks trains that can legally even break 110mph... :p
01:11:18  <Flygon> (at least, for non-testing purposes. Whooo-ee, does 125-130mph rumble the ground @_@)
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01:11:50  <Pinkbeast> It's a pity the 91s can only routinely run at 125 not the design 140, but where on earth are you? We're about as slow as anywhere outside the USA
01:12:04  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast actually on some freight railroads that ran infrequent but quite heavy trains .. they almost always used bankers ... sometimes they do it so often that it just becomes "quietly normal" as in that everyone knows what to do without having to talk at all....let me show an example...
01:12:27  <Flygon> Victoria, Australia
01:12:40  <Flygon> Our tracks and signalling limit the speed of our trains
01:12:45  <Pinkbeast> I suspect Big Bertha's operations were quite routine (the 0-10-0 the Midland built for one bank)
01:12:47  <Flygon> Same applies for the rest of the country, honestly
01:13:07  <Pinkbeast> Ah, yes, you've got a bad case of car culture and internal flights, haven't you?
01:13:13  <Flygon> Ironically, this was less of an issue in the 30s and 40s, despite worse grade track and semaphore signalling
01:13:35  <Pinkbeast> Well, the Yanks were as fast as anyone in the 30s, God knows what went wrong there
01:13:46  <Flygon> eg. Steam locomotives going over 140km/h... when the paper recorder ran out of paper (the track was graded for 80km/h)
01:14:33  <Flygon> Keep in mind, in Australia, 115km/h was considered blindingly fast. Our tech lacked much external intervention due to difficulty in communication and freight transport
01:14:40  <drac_boy> B&O EM-1 (yes a big mallet) with long mixed freight train coast to a known (eg tree landmark or so) stop point ... second EM-1 that was sitting in a short empty spur backs out and couple onto rear ... whistles off for brake test then a few minute later ... get response to bunch in .. and pretty soon enough train's rolling
01:14:57  <drac_boy> no dispatcher phone or any crew comminucations .. they've done it so many times they know whats going to happen anyway
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01:15:18  <Flygon> Frankly, I think some of VR's later steam locomotives could have broken 180km/h if given a track that wasn't awful :p
01:15:28  <Pinkbeast> Cough murmur Australia's not that far from Japan and they had to catch up in a hurry in the late 19th century
01:15:37  <drac_boy> funny thing is some of these helper locomotive holding point had nothing but just a crude wooden seat and a weather-covered phone box ... thats all there was
01:15:47  <Flygon> Pinkbeast, Japan INVADED Australia
01:16:02  <Flygon> Though, we did sell excessive amounts of iron to them until WWII happened
01:16:07  <Flygon> We have an interesting relationship
01:16:09  <drac_boy> for coal or anything they just simply phoned the dispatcher for clearance to head to yard for a short time .. then to come back to this waiting place :)
01:16:09  <Pinkbeast> Errr I'm not sure this is directly pertinent to their history of railway development
01:16:26  <Pinkbeast> My point is they have the same difficulties in communication etc
01:17:07  <Flygon> The difference with Japan is, is that they're good at innovation. All Australia does (and still does) is make stuff bigger :p
01:17:36  <Flygon> Try to imagine British style locomotives that have been Americanized in a British fashion :B
01:18:04  <Pinkbeast> What really impressed me was that Japan went from having their first steam railway to completing the first locomotive designed and built by Japanese people in... ten years
01:18:30  <Flygon> Japan is very very good at rapidly developing stuff
01:18:41  <Flygon> As is much of Asia (eg. China, Korea)
01:19:14  <drac_boy> flygon mind you there were a few ex-accident locomotives that had scotch-like (forgot exact name if that wasn't it) designs after their rebuild ... a flat tube with only the sand dome and smokestack otherwise breaking it up :)  (never knew where they mount the big air pumps on these tho...!)
01:19:20  <drac_boy> in usa that is
01:19:47  <Flygon> Frankly, it would have been interesting to import Japanese technology to Australia from the 20s to 30s (presuming they didn't mind working @ 1600mm, instead of 1067mm :p)
01:20:10  <Flygon> But the only currency we were really allowed to trade in was the British pound. So we imported stuff from Britian instead.
01:20:37  <Pinkbeast> Well, I'm led to believe that Mr Gresley's locomotives were not totally awful. :-)
01:21:07  <drac_boy> oh hm that reminds me of something else...
01:21:23  <Flygon> This made it very hard to get Diesels, even in the 50s (coupled with a conservative train company). So when Operation Pheonix/Dieselize Victoria happened... over half the order (from locally and abroad... Britian helped most with the Diesel, if I recall correctly, however) was actually superpowered Steam locomotives
01:21:33  <Flygon> By superpowered... I mean, compared to other Australian locos :p
01:21:42  <Flygon> Gresley was a genius
01:22:48  <Flygon> But he wouldn't like an Australian built attempt at improving upon steam technology... too heavy, despite being the most powerful bugger on the continent until 1995 :p
01:22:56  <drac_boy> btw flygon you know what a feedwater heater is?
01:23:06  <Flygon> Feedwater heater...
01:23:10  <Flygon> Trying to remember
01:23:31  <Pinkbeast> Use waste heat so you don't squirt completely cold water into the boiler
01:23:46  <Flygon> Ah, interesting
01:23:49  <Flygon> That's genius
01:23:52  <drac_boy> most locomotives had them as a cylinder mounted sideway just ahead of the smokestack .. or placed somewhere down either side of the boiler ... but there was one particular company that umm had an odd one ....
01:24:30  <drac_boy>  thats a Coffin feedwater ... makes the locomotive look a little bit like a hooded villian :->
01:24:48  <drac_boy> U shaped ahead of the boiler :)
01:25:11  <Pinkbeast> A lot of German locomotives have a cylindrical hump atop the boiler which I think is one. Could be wrong.
01:25:13  <Flygon> I think the hood is the least of that locomotive's worries :D
01:25:26  <drac_boy> Flygon you do agree that it looks odd tho like a hooded thing? :)
01:25:32  <Flygon> That is one of the most unelegant locomotives I've ever seen :P
01:25:37  <Flygon> It does, though, yes
01:26:11  <drac_boy> flygon heh ... if you want another 'unelegant' ...
01:27:15  <Pinkbeast> # unelegant, but a rare good design from Mr Bulleid
01:28:35  <drac_boy> some of the late super power locomotives had many air compressors to deal with that with little space they just simply slap all four of them right on the front .. two to the left of the headlight .. other two to the right
01:28:51  <drac_boy> you almost couldn't see the door that way ...!
01:29:12  <drac_boy> function over fashion after all I guess
01:29:28  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: At least it doesn't look like a Frankenstine Monster :p
01:30:24  <Pinkbeast> Also an exhaust injector heats water for free anyway, and a feedwater heater means you can't use injectors which are a simple design with a minimum of moving parts, even if they do work by magic
01:31:05  <Flygon> Victoria had a tendancy to go for nice looks when practical... and yet, those two are probably the most powerful (successful) designs in Victoria :p
01:31:50  <Pinkbeast> I do find the amount of crap hanging off the outside of German locomotives quite alarming
01:31:56  <Flygon> (the H-class I showed earlier failed, due to heavy axle load, and WWII preventing line updeades to handle it)
01:31:59  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast why? :P
01:32:38  <Pinkbeast> British practice was not to do that where possible, partly because of our small loading gauge. Inside cylinders hung on for a long, long time here.
01:33:38  <drac_boy> heh tbh Pinkbeast I kinda prefer locomotives that don't constrain themself just because of the gauge .. that including very short boiler-to-piston length while still keeping the valves accessible ... which means the pistons kinda sticks outward a bit
01:33:41  <drac_boy> but to our own ways ;)
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01:34:19  <drac_boy> mind you I think thats how the british Crab was so nicknamed .. it had a slight upward angle to its pistons
01:34:48  <Pinkbeast> I'm not really saying anything from an engineering POV, just that they look very odd. Especially since many of them are also painted in fascist black-and-red
01:34:53  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Victoria had a larger loading gauge... and yet we adopted British practice of keeping things neat and tidy
01:35:00  <Flygon> New South Wales, however... oh lordy me
01:35:15  <Flygon> They had a much larger loading gauge
01:35:26  <Flygon> So much so, they built the world's first DD EMU's
01:35:40  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast heh .. well I prefer the non-black tires and everything but mm
01:35:47  <Pinkbeast> drac: some think that, some because of the skittering sensation when moving at speed (also indirectly a product of the piston angle)
01:35:55  <Flygon> This one looks really good, however
01:36:26  <Pinkbeast> Well, aside from the rocket launcher mounted on the side of it. ;-)
01:36:37  <Pinkbeast> ... or whatever that object is :-)
01:37:19  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast its no wonder why 0-4-0 of any sort were so few and usually restricted in their workings in usa ... with no guiding axles they were too much like ducks .. walloping side to side all over the place ... could and did cause silly derailments sometimes
01:37:40  <Flygon> Pinkbeast, it's 90% bullet. May as well be a Steam-Shinkansen :P
01:37:44  <drac_boy> 2-4-0 or so were much more common and had bit better working till killed by the moguls/etc tho
01:37:46  <Pinkbeast> 0-6-0 freights were quite successful here
01:38:26  <drac_boy> 0-6-0 did exist in big numbers ... after all three axles made for very small walloping if any at all .. mind you they were "the" choice for yards and station shunting at times
01:38:33  <Flygon> This is what I meant, by New South Wales going for more unusual designs
01:38:35  <Pinkbeast> One of the odd things about the Austerities is the wheels are weighted to minimise hammerblow at the cost of crew comfort. Not popular in preservation. :-/
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01:39:23  <Pinkbeast> Oh, I like Garratts, it's just a pity the only standard-gauge Garratt class here was crap. (There are one-offs like Gresley's).
01:39:33  <Flygon> Bloody massive, too. The Victorian Railways Heavy Harry may be the most insanely powerful and gigantic non-articulated steam loco in Australia... but New South Wales knew how to articulate
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01:39:52  <Flygon> And apperantly the AD60 class was absolutely brilliant
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01:40:51  <Flygon> Shame they couldn't be exported to Victoria. Our loading gauge is too small.
01:41:40  <Pinkbeast> The Ffestiniog has some preserved narrow-gauge Garratts, but they're not high-power monsters, just very bendy
01:41:48  <Flygon> And I imagine their axle load would have worked wonders on the Albury and Adelaide lines (which were the two due to be upgraded for Heavy Harry... Albury got upgraded on time, due to already having the heavy Spirit of Progress trains)
01:42:08  <Flygon> Anyway, I gotta brb
01:42:14  <Flygon> Being forced to put shopping on the line
01:42:15  <Flygon> Er
01:42:17  <Flygon> clothes fff
01:42:28  <drac_boy> flygon btw did I tell you about alco locomotives with loose trucks and baldwins that refused to die without blowing up something in the engine?
01:43:07  <Flygon> Wait, nvm
01:43:09  <Flygon> Gimmie 17 mins
01:43:14  <drac_boy> heh ok
01:43:23  <Flygon> Mum was confusing in her instructions
01:43:24  <Pinkbeast> 17: highly specific
01:43:28  <Flygon> Machine has 17 mins to go
01:43:32  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast in case you were not around before..what I had told flygon before was a bit silly....
01:43:58  <Flygon> drac_boy: Alco must have been a great builder
01:44:36  <drac_boy> apparently some of the early alco diesel road units had their trucks designed to be very flexible to deal with old rusty rails normal of old branchlines ... as story went the trucks were so loose that parts sometimes would fall off as one axle rode into a hard dip then rose back up just as the other axle dropped down just as well
01:44:46  <Pinkbeast> # I don't know that Sir Nigel will forgive me, but personally I think the unstreamlined Duchesses look as good as anything ever
01:45:23  <Flygon> o.o
01:45:25  <Pinkbeast> The giant Chinese locomotive in the NRM has the suspension arrangement to deal with awful track
01:45:29  <Flygon> Wow, that... heh
01:45:35  <Flygon> @ drac_boy
01:46:01  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: That is one smoothass looking locomotive
01:46:11  <drac_boy> and then when it came to baldwins .. well ... of all the silly thing they could snap a crankshaft (this was a 12-inline block mind you) and still keep running like as if nothing happened in the first place ... plus an old engineer remarked "if they don't keep leaking oil then something's wrong with them" .. !!! as if it was supposed to always leak a bit all the times normally :)
01:46:38  <drac_boy> some of these old locomotives sure could refuse to die unlike a lot of the modern plastic crap we have today :p
01:46:51  <Flygon> drac_boy: You'll love Australia then
01:47:02  <Pinkbeast> Huh. The Merchant Navies used to leak oil from the chain-driven valve gear. One thing I didn't appreciate until recently was that this caused the boiler cladding to get covered in oil, as well as the locomotive to skip.
01:47:03  <Flygon> The only times I've seen old Diesels die is when their dynamic brakes catch on fire
01:47:13  <Pinkbeast> Of course, coal dust likes to stick to oily boiler cladding.
01:47:16  <Flygon> Luckily, a fair few of them still have asbestos that was designed to counter this :P
01:47:46  <Flygon> (most fires happen in units that are part of a MU operation... luckily, the oes that don't have the driver inside)
01:47:48  <drac_boy> and pinkbeast its not just usa .. I was reading about how one railroad in europe was finally retiring their 50 years old electric locomotives for new one .. and the weird thing is... the new ones had more problems during winter because the old one had been built with more stern metals in them! :)
01:47:53  <Pinkbeast> And braking sparks love to stick to oil-and-coal-dust covered boiler cladding, and then the fire brigade has to be called.
01:48:05  <Pinkbeast> Dear Mr Bulleid, the fire is meant to be on the inside!
01:48:24  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast heh I probably would had not minded being in the crew on such locomotives :)
01:48:37  <Pinkbeast> They were very popular with crews, actually.
01:48:52  <Flygon> I wouldn't really trust anyone but Americans and Australians to build trains for Australia anyway...
01:49:16  <Pinkbeast> Absolute maintenance queens, but the thing Bulleid got right was that the boiler (and firebox, blastpipe etc) were spot on - it used to be said they'd steam on a candle
01:49:25  <Flygon> The one time CityRail (Sydney's train operator) tried to order Chinese trains, they spent several years and lots of money repairing and upgrading the delivered trains, because they were that awful
01:49:37  <Flygon> It would have been cheaper to put up with the high cost of Aussie construction :p
01:49:40  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast you know why I always think about this kind of idocisms? because my old heavy wagon of a toyota is rather the same thing ... it always has non-critical issues all the times but it never wouldn't run so meh :P
01:50:09  <Pinkbeast> Well, they wouldn't run when they were ON FIRE
01:50:09  <Flygon> (and faster, despite out critically overworked and constantly delayed workshops)
01:50:31  <Pinkbeast> ... and they slipped like buggers because of the leaky oil baths, and the chains stretched so the valve events went wonky...
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01:51:08  <Pinkbeast> # also very good looking but I do secretly prefer the Princess Coronations
01:51:30  <drac_boy> want to know what is one of the several weird "warning" I always get from parking my wagon somewhere for a long time?
01:51:42  <Pinkbeast> In particular they shared Exeter with GWR 4-6-0s which hardly slip at all. "Clang, clang, clang, most un-Churchward".
01:51:57  <Pinkbeast> I haven't been in a car for 5 years so it may be mysterious to me
01:52:25  <drac_boy> excuse me sir, that pod on the roof is literally dumping fluid down your windshield???
01:52:48  <drac_boy> some people just have no clue that a run-on ac unit always has to dump water somewhere ... duh
01:53:10  <drac_boy> and thats only one of the many 'problems' I have with my wagon heh :)
01:55:05  <drac_boy> btw pinkbeast about these Navies ... the Alco RS locomotives sometimes had problem with spurting so much black oil out of the exhaust stacks that you had a very smeared windhsield with the wiper not even being able to do anything to help at all but just make more streaks
01:55:28  <drac_boy> no wonder a lot of these RS units were eventually set to run short hood forward so all the exhaust stacks was *behind* the cab!
01:57:26  <drac_boy> pinkbeast about "most un-churchward" .. here is something you might like to know about...
01:58:43  <drac_boy> the PRR GG1? most of its techology started from trolleycars so...its not too much of a surprise when an author (of the article in question) took a ride in one of these NJ owned GG1 and almost had too much laughter when he heard this locomotive starting out of the station platform .. it actually went clang!-clang!-clang! just like a real trolleycar
01:58:56  <drac_boy> as soon as it got up to some speed the clanging went away ofc .. but still .. goes to show you
01:59:59  <Pinkbeast> I was quite surprised the first time a German train said "Nachste haltestelle... links" to me, which in retrospect is an obvious thing to do
02:10:50  <drac_boy> so now what? :p heh
02:14:31  * drac_boy pokes flygon already
02:14:45  * Flygon honks
02:15:00  <drac_boy> heh .. your 17 minute's already gone by :P
02:15:00  <Flygon> Sorry, been processing some stuff
02:15:07  <Flygon> Oh, lemme check the washing machine
02:15:11  <Flygon> Thanks, dracco!
02:15:23  * drac_boy whacks flygon with a wet towle
02:15:28  <drac_boy> :|
02:15:34  <drac_boy> heh
02:22:13  <Flygon> Back
02:33:22  <drac_boy> flygon its a bit humorful but anyway....
02:34:07  <drac_boy> there was a classic train special issue magazine .. and guess what was near the back page inside? it talked about how the last steam locomotive to be retired was actually the GG1 .... after all it was an "steam era" electric locomotive heh...
02:35:48  <drac_boy> the editor made these pointers: brass bell, idler axles ("what diesels even had them?"), steam boiler heaters (before eventually being replaced with diesel era electric water heaters), visibility out of the cab just like a steam locomotive boiler, sanders worked with spigots, and lastly that the chassis was built at a steam locomotive tender shop
02:36:09  <drac_boy> heh
02:36:25  <Pinkbeast>  I assume this is some rather local meaning of "last" since we don't even know what the last working steam locomotive will be
02:37:23  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast the GG1 ran well into the 1980s btw :p
02:37:56  <drac_boy> forgot the exact date for the last (a special run actually) run ... but it was probably late 80's or early 90's for sure tho
02:38:15  <Pinkbeast> Yes, but it still sure as hell is not going to beat the QJs because there are QJs in steam on ordinary revenue service right now
02:38:37  <drac_boy> heh actually i still remember reading the article ... last mainline steam run in china several years ago
02:38:52  <drac_boy> even had a special front tailsign made up for the run too
02:39:06  <Pinkbeast> Last of something, but they're still running them for all that.
02:39:38  <drac_boy> but ofc the sugar cane field islands still have a lot of these ex-american little locomotives scuttering everywhere .. on several different narrow gauges
02:39:54  <drac_boy> even at least one operateable lima shay last someone wrote about visiting there rails
02:40:11  <Flygon> Sorry for the delays
02:40:19  <Flygon> I've been working through some important stuff
02:40:20  <Pinkbeast> And unless they've finally died, there's a couple of Garratts in Zimbabwe still running. We don't know what'll be last, even not counting preservation.
02:40:27  <Flygon> Gonna have to work on the comic again :P
02:40:30  <drac_boy> and pinkbeast its kinda funny watching a locomotive being fired on waste canes ... makes for interesting smoke :)
02:40:54  <Supercheese> Hah, the Rock Candy Mountain Railway? :P
02:41:08  <Supercheese> Big Rock Candy*
02:44:13  <Pinkbeast> - August 1983
02:44:54  <Pinkbeast> Likely not the last non-preserved steam here, but close to it
02:47:28  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast btw I don't even know the operating history for pretty much almost everything so I can't think of anything to compare to but....
02:48:02  <Pinkbeast> It's a wartime industrial design, basically.
02:48:06  <drac_boy> Union Pacific actually owns one steam locomotive that they built brand new and *never* had ever retired it at all ... its used for special excurions or the so once in a while these years now ....
02:48:27  <drac_boy> its the #8444 .. ex-844 (diesel renumbering...don't ask why)
02:48:55  <Pinkbeast> Mmm, but I think that counts as "in preservation" now - I'm trying to think of places steam is used not just because it is steam
02:49:28  <Pinkbeast> _Evening Star_ was expected to be preserved from day 1, of course
02:49:31  <drac_boy> Pinkbeast the point is... who could you think of that bought a brand new locomotive .. and then used it in preservation even although it has *never* ever been taken off the rooster list?
02:50:13  <drac_boy> just about everything else were retired aka always went through at least one major ownership change
02:50:33  <Pinkbeast> Well, _Flying Scotsman_ was allowed to run on the mainline during the BR steam ban.
02:51:01  <drac_boy> the same one that ended up in canada and usa for a while? :)
02:51:15  <drac_boy> looking weird with the american headlight added to its smokestack line and everything..heh!
02:51:22  <Flygon> Pinkbeast
02:51:30  <Flygon> The Flying Scotsman steams EVERYWHERE
02:51:31  <Flygon> Why
02:51:37  <Flygon> It steamed from Brisbane to Perth!
02:51:38  <Pinkbeast> Ah, and some of the Deutsche Reichsban steam went directly from being working locomotives in the DDR to Plandampf after the reunification
02:51:50  <Flygon> It's a shame I wasn't alive in 1988
02:51:57  <Pinkbeast> Very famous. One of the... five or so locomotives that might have been first to 100mph.
02:51:58  <Flygon> It came to Australia to celebrate the bicentennnery
02:52:23  <drac_boy> and btw did anyone know that the Mallard went to german for a special show .. to sit near its "enemy" the BR.05? :p
02:52:42  * drac_boy still stands that the BR.05 was the one that held the actual speed record tho
02:52:45  <Flygon> Then all the railways in Australia ran trains side-by-side the Scotsman... must have made some fun for the double-tracks that're technically one-way :p
02:52:52  <Pinkbeast> But No. 4472 is, I guess, besides Thomas, the one locomotive everyone has heard of
02:53:18  <Flygon> Pish posh, we all know the T1 could have made the steam record if anyone bothered to record official speed records :P
02:54:04  <drac_boy> flygon..just read the timetable chart ... it'll tell you average top speed :p
02:54:18  <Flygon> Shame none made it into preservation (and that they'd probably be too expensive to reproduce again)
02:54:31  <Flygon> drac_boy, timetables don't cover when drivers completely ignore them :p
02:54:39  <Pinkbeast> Urrr. The BR05s were faster, no doubt. And I daresay 05.002 could have beat 125mph. But they didn't.
02:54:49  <drac_boy> that was how they figured out how fast the milwaukee hudsons could run in some places....
02:54:50  <Flygon> eg. like how I said earlier, that the VR drivers would intentionally go around 140km/h when the speed recorder broke
02:54:54  <DDR> Pinkbeast: Whut was in me again?
02:54:55  <Flygon> On 80km/h line
02:55:12  <Pinkbeast> DDR: err I find myself lacking context
02:55:14  <drac_boy> "400 miles 400 minutes" was a famous timetable ... and there were several intermidate halts .. so the average speed was pretty much over 80mph easily :)
02:55:58  <Pinkbeast> I'll be amused if that lot of Yanks who want to rebuild a 4-6-4 and beat 125mph do it. :-)
02:56:18  <DDR> "[18:51]	Pinkbeast	Ah, and some of the Deutsche Reichsban steam went directly from being working locomotives in the DDR to Plandampf after the reunification"
02:56:27  <Flygon> Rebuilt this, apperantly it went 140mph :p
02:56:55  <Pinkbeast> DDR: steam locomotives?
02:57:21  <Pinkbeast> Flygon: I think one has to be... cautious of these unsubstantiated figures
02:57:28  <Flygon> I said apperantly
02:57:31  <DDR> I have an impressive carrying capacity.
02:57:36  <Flygon> I'm highly skeptical of figures over 130 myself
02:57:45  <Pinkbeast> Yes, or perhaps I mean some other DDR? :-P
02:57:57  <DDR> Possible... but I like to think not.
02:58:04  <DDR> *ego* *ego* *ego*
02:58:17  <Pinkbeast> Got any modular concrete apartment blocks in you?
02:58:41  <Flygon> I still reckon it'd be fun to see an NSWGR AD60 or VR Heavy Harry try to break steam records, either way, now that Australia has some segments of near-HSR capable track :)
02:58:43  <DDR> Uh, not unless my doctor isn't telling me something. I seem quite fleshy.
02:58:43  <drac_boy> flygon here's another quiet speed record that only 3 people actually saw (basically the improper crew themself) ....
02:58:53  <Flygon> Hm?
02:58:56  <DDR> I'll concede you might have a point...
02:59:47  <drac_boy> in the rockies of Colorado in the early days .. it turned out that of the family .. the wife was out for a stroll at night with friend .. got strucken by a car ... was bought home and doctor prescribed medicine but said the internal bleeding would be fatal in about 24 hours ...
03:00:06  <Pinkbeast> Heavy Harry: huh, with someone else's conjugated valve gear
03:00:21  <Flygon> Heavy Harry, meaning, the VR H-class
03:00:35  <drac_boy> message was sent to the operating office where the husband was currently resting at ... he had to get back home some way .. but not the roads because that would had been too crazy in the dark ...
03:00:36  <Flygon> But it's got a singular name because it's the one one of three that got built before WWII
03:01:00  <Pinkbeast> Yeah, I've just been reading the wikipedia page :-)
03:01:27  <Flygon> Ah, gotcha
03:01:28  <drac_boy> so a lone locomotive was dispatched with him as its engineer and an order to supreceed this locomotive over all other trains ... the operator knew that as long as there was no accident the brass would not find out about this "personal transportation" ....
03:01:49  <Pinkbeast> 5' 7" drivers seem a bit optimistic for very high speed running
03:01:51  <Flygon> Taxitrain?
03:02:16  <DDR> Wow.
03:02:18  <drac_boy> and sure enough the husband was able to have a few hours with his wife before she finally passed away .. and repeating the story many years later he said that he ran the locomotive so fast that on one curve the inside drivers actually lifted off the rails!!
03:02:19  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: If the S-class managed 138km/h, I'd bet Harry could beat 160km/h
03:02:26  <Pinkbeast> Even a Merchant Navy has 6' 2" drivers
03:02:39  <drac_boy> this is a 3'6 gauge railroad with the locomotives having small tires and outside frame
03:02:43  <Flygon> Even better if it broke 177km/h... that'd mean it officially 1-ups the VLocity OSpeed limits :B
03:02:50  <drac_boy> so you can imagine how fast it must had been going into the curve!!!
03:03:17  <Flygon> drac_boy: O_O
03:03:18  <Flygon> Wow
03:04:34  <Pinkbeast> Flygon: I think you may underestimate how hard it is to go faster - a Stirling Single could exceed 138 km/h in 1870
03:05:14  <Flygon> I'm known for being an overt optimist
03:06:04  <Flygon> And I doubt Harry would be ever taken out on speed runs anyway, given the immense repair costs (the R-class, by comparison, is comparitively cheap to repair... so, they weren't so worried about breaking 120km/h)
03:06:19  <Pinkbeast> But I think more fundamentally what I'm saying is it doesn't matter how powerful a steam locomotive is if the driving wheels are too small, unless the valve gear is (as on the 5AT) of modern design
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03:10:09  <Flygon> Hmm
03:10:19  <Flygon> Good point
03:10:28  <Pinkbeast> There's a reason the Singles look the way they do. :-)
03:10:30  <Flygon> I'd be surprised if it went slower than the S-class, either way
03:10:46  <Flygon> It's a direct evolution of the S-class
03:11:36  <Flygon> Either way, New South Wales holds the record, with it's Sydney-Newcastle express... it went up to around 160km/h at points, if I remember correctly
03:11:41  <Flygon> But my recollection is sketchy
03:11:41  <Pinkbeast> I don't see why you wouldn't make 160km/h =~ 100mph - a 9F would do 90mph with 5' drivers
03:12:26  <Flygon> (surprisingly, the record wasn't made with an AD60...)
03:12:55  <Flygon> What exactly do you define as high speed running?
03:13:07  <Flygon> I'm going by around 150-170km/h here
03:13:24  <Pinkbeast> I was still in the mindset of having a crack at Mallard's 125mph.
03:13:31  <Flygon> Oh
03:13:33  <Flygon> Goodness no
03:13:39  <Flygon> I doubt any VR locomotives could break that
03:13:50  <Flygon> Diesel or Steam
03:14:11  <Flygon> Barring a regeared A-class, but that would be hopelessly impractical
03:14:11  <Pinkbeast> (Yes, 12_5_. :-P )
03:14:50  <Flygon> (that, and all the A-class frames are now so worn out, it's considered dangerous to break 125km/h)
03:15:47  <Flygon> But I have a lot of confidence for 160-170km/h
03:16:29  <Flygon> Going by recollection, the only reason the S-class peaked @ 138km/h is because the driver didn't want to look suspiciously early to Albury (except for the fact that he was already 20 minutes early to Seymour...)
03:19:04  * drac_boy whacks flygon with a pillow as I go to bed now
03:19:06  <drac_boy> :P
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03:19:17  <Flygon> Sleep w-
03:19:19  <Flygon> .-.
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08:43:48  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:57:48  <planetmaker> moin
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09:58:47  <Chris_Booth> morning planetmaker
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10:05:16  <Alberth> moin planetmaker
10:08:51  <planetmaker> so many friendly faces around :-)
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10:30:25  * Flygon goes all friendly over planetmaker
10:30:47  <Flygon> Of all the planets I've been on
10:30:49  <Flygon> This's the only
10:32:06  * Alberth thinks Flygon just likes the air here to fly in
10:32:51  <planetmaker> :-)
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10:34:32  <Alberth> hmm, the dropdown code is more smart than I expected :p
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10:40:11  <Flygon> Alberth, if I was an actual Flygon, I'd probably not be called Flygon :p
10:40:22  <Flygon> It'd be like setting my nick to 'Human'!
10:41:26  <Alberth> So planetmaker also doesn't make planets?
10:41:42  <Flygon> If he does, he should have a religion
10:41:44  <planetmaker> indeed. I only make planetesimals :-P
10:42:59  <planetmaker> growing planetesimals into planets is mostly a solved problem ;-) That's why :-P
10:43:21  <Alberth> you have staff for that :p
10:43:44  <planetmaker> it's like with children: just feed them and they'll grow by themselves ;-)
10:44:13  <Sturmi> and become stupid ttd traindrivers :D
10:48:06  <Alberth> sounds like a dangerous job
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11:11:34  <Flygon> Sturmi: Don't blame the driver, blame the control centre!
11:11:48  <Flygon> The only control centre I've seen more incompetent is Metrol! From Melbourne!
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12:05:31  <matzteri>  Hi, im trying to play Germany, Switzerland and Italy v1.1 from SwissFan91 but im missing GRF
12:05:43  <matzteri> could someone help we with that? im pretty new to TT, sorry.
12:06:39  <Alberth> did you try "find missing content" button ?
12:07:45  <matzteri> yes, I did, but there are still a lot of unknown GRF's
12:08:27  <matzteri> I couldn't even find them with google, for example NARS_Onlytemperate_v0.2.grf
12:09:28  <Alberth> you could try to find the scenario
12:10:19  <Alberth> I think SwissFan91 also has an account there, so a PM would be another option
12:10:53  <Alberth>    is another place with many newgrfs
12:12:00  <matzteri> &
12:12:23  <matzteri> and I already did grfcrawler :) and I already PM to SwissFan91..
12:13:02  <matzteri> but he didn't answer yet, so I thought I ask here.. because I was certain that everybody want's to play swissrailway.. ;-)
12:13:05  <Alberth> hmm, and no results thus  :(
12:13:45  <Alberth> Swiss railways with american trains :)
12:14:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r24762 trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp (2012-11-25 12:14:13 UTC)
12:14:20  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5359]: [Win32] Don't crash when switching to an unsupported fullscreen display mode (like 8 bpp modes in Windows 8).
12:14:41  * Alberth senses the death of 8bpp modes :(
12:14:41  <matzteri> like I said, im new to OpenTTD so im sure im just doing a newbie mistake.
12:15:43  <Alberth> you seem to have covered the usual suspects imho
12:15:53  <matzteri> I was wondering too, but there are also german trains, as it looks like..
12:16:24  <Alberth> yeah, trains from every country almost :)
12:16:41  <matzteri> Ok, so I just wait for him to replay, thanks
12:17:34  <Alberth> sorry, I could not be of more help, but I am not using many newgrfs, and those that I do use, are simply at bananas
12:19:20  <matzteri> I just wanted to know if I'm doing some stupid mistake, but you gave me the hints I already tried, so I'm killed
12:20:47  <michi_cc> Which GRFs are missing?
12:22:15  <michi_cc> There's also the openttdcoop GRF pack which contains many NewGRFs from the pre-bananas era:
12:23:40  <matzteri> German Road Vehicle Set v0.23, Long vehicles.Mctrucks, Long vehicles. Spitzer trucks, Long vehicles, Volvo trucks. Vo, NARS_Onlytemperate_v0.2.grf, newstatsw.grf, Scania2Trucksw.grf, TotalBridgesRenewalSetVersio
12:23:50  <matzteri> ok I'll have a look
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12:26:44  <matzteri> is it sometimes nessesary to edit the grf.config? or should it be enough to but the files in to the right folder?
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12:27:10  <Alberth> adding them into the newgrf folder should be enough
12:27:35  <Alberth> at least for a scenario or existing save game
12:29:44  <matzteri> I found two of the missing grf's in that Pack :-) still 6 to go :)
12:32:30  <michi_cc> + + for maybe some more
12:33:16  <matzteri> ha .. only 2 left :-)
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12:36:06  <michi_cc> Total Bridge Renewal has a lot of different versions for different roads, most of them are somewhere on tt-forums, but I don't think there's a single place.
12:38:12  <michi_cc> And a bit of google can do wonders:
12:41:34  <matzteri> WOA! thanks!
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12:42:11  <matzteri> I googled for it.. *grr* but your obviously the better googler ;-)
12:42:35  <matzteri> It works now, so im busy for the next 2 years or so ;-)
12:42:51  <matzteri> thanks a lot for your help Alberth and Michi
12:43:42  <Alberth> have fun :)
12:50:18  <MNIM> hmmmmh
12:50:42  <MNIM> It's not possible to have bi-directional track in OTTD currently, is there
12:52:18  <frosch123> sure it is
12:52:21  <Ammler> of course, every track is that, you need signals to make it one way
12:52:32  <MNIM> >.<
12:52:34  <frosch123> unless you mean like in rrt where stuff happens magically
12:52:50  <MNIM> I meant like so
12:53:02  <MNIM> but yeah, says no.
12:54:37  <MNIM> I just tried just that, but I got massive deadlocking
12:55:00  <MNIM> (perhaps I shouldn't have tested that on a heavily used line) XD
12:55:23  <Ammler> well, I would use a 3rd line and use the middle bidirectional and the outers fixed
12:55:52  <MNIM> There's that, of course, but I don't need a third rail just yet
12:57:39  <Ammler> and you are sure, you need 2 lines in one direction?
12:57:50  <Ammler> most trains also need to go back
12:58:45  <andythenorth> I would switch to planes
12:58:59  * andythenorth is sleepy
12:59:07  <Ammler> I guess, that wiki page should sed s/Realistic/Silly/
13:00:20  <Ammler> that wiki page misses links to sources to prove the realism
13:02:30  <MNIM> ammler: it's an experiment to see if I can reduce the blockade a broken train might cause
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13:22:13  <Wolf01> hello o/
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13:28:16  <Alberth> hi
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15:06:52  <NGC3982> Evening.
15:11:15  <MNIM> afternoon.
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15:21:12  <Dr_Tan> > OpenTTD consideres track with single signals as one-way track.
15:21:18  <Dr_Tan> what about path signals?
15:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause> there are path signals that define one-way track and path signals that don't
15:22:20  <Dr_Tan> yes
15:22:26  <Dr_Tan> why can't normal signals do that?
15:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> normal signals work different
15:23:49  <Dr_Tan> i mean why haven't we changed that
15:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> because then they would become path signals
15:24:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r24763 /trunk/src (7 files in 5 dirs) (2012-11-25 15:24:02 UTC)
15:24:10  <DorpsGek> -Feature: Add industry type and cargo dropdown selection for easier navigating in the industry chain window.
15:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and we already have those
15:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Dr_Tan: the main reason why normal signals can't be changed is loading old savegames
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15:27:02  <Dr_Tan> surely it wouldn't have to corrupt the game, just change how it is interprated?
15:27:10  <Dr_Tan> might cause accidents
15:27:46  <Alberth> why do you want to change the existing signals?  just don't use them
15:28:08  <Dr_Tan> lol
15:28:10  <Dr_Tan> i don'
15:28:16  <Dr_Tan> i don't think anybody does
15:28:22  <Dr_Tan> path signals and presignals
15:28:36  <Dr_Tan> but I was reading the page somebody posted
15:28:52  <Alberth> I do use the normal block signal, and path signals
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15:29:42  <Alberth> and I have some old save games that use pre-signals, and rely on their behaviour
15:31:34  * MNIM uses ALLLL the signals
15:31:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r24764 trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp (2012-11-25 15:31:45 UTC)
15:31:51  <DorpsGek> -Change: Disable horizontal resizing of the industry chain window, it's not useful.
15:32:23  <MNIM> PBS for stations and two-way singletracks, normals for everything else, pre/combo/exit signals for priority merges
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16:28:39  <Mister_Argent|2> oh god, just sent out a fleet of trucks but i forgot to refit them for grains first
16:29:19  <Mister_Argent|2> Is there a way to bulk refit all trucks currently in a depot?
16:35:09  <frosch123> sell them all :p
16:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause> you can refit at stations :)
16:35:17  <frosch123> refit one, and reclone
16:35:34  <frosch123> yeah, or add a refit order
16:35:41  <frosch123> go to depot, refit
16:55:41  <MNIM> wait, you can refit at stations?
16:55:43  <MNIM> ...
16:55:47  * MNIM did not know that
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16:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a fairly new feature
17:00:18  <MNIM> ah.
17:00:20  <MNIM> figures
17:00:59  <ToBeFree> what O.O
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17:01:04  <ToBeFree> interesting^^
17:10:53  <frosch123> and there are only 2 or 3 newgrfs which support it
17:13:18  <MNIM> support it how?
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17:15:00  <frosch123> if they do not support it, you cannot refit the vehicles at stations
17:15:16  <MNIM> ah.
17:15:21  <MNIM> hmmmh.
17:15:36  <frosch123> i only know about ogfx+trains and ogfx+rv
17:15:40  <frosch123> maybe there is a third one
17:16:26  <frosch123> maybe fish 2, but only maybe
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17:48:00  <V453000> UKRS2 also has autorefit
17:48:07  <V453000> and I think dutch trains too but not sure tehre
17:54:00  <frosch123> you have them on your black list? :p
17:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so why doesn't NUTS do autorefit? :)
17:57:56  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: for the same reason coop does not use path signals
17:58:57  <V453000> no frosch that is very different reasons
17:59:16  <frosch123> is it? i thought both make the game easier
17:59:24  <V453000> autorefit is simply a wrong feature, the only thing it does is make refit work the same way as normal stations
17:59:38  <V453000> therefore removing possibilities from the game
18:00:11  <V453000> PBS is just a simplification of thought process and potentially something that you can get stuck with instead of finding a better solution which would be more obvious if you always used only block signals
18:00:25  <V453000> we do use PBS, but of course only in spots where it is necessary
18:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that's because coop doesn't have space restrictions the same way "normal" players would...
18:01:06  <V453000> dont we?
18:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you don't :)
18:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> like "preserve landscape" or "128^2 map" and stuff
18:02:15  <V453000> I wouldnt say that, or at least definitely not generally speaking. Of course many spots on the network get in major space limits
18:02:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, space limits, but orders of magnitudes larger
18:02:41  <V453000> when you have a large junction, expanding some parts inside of it can get seriously limited in space
18:03:06  <V453000> doesnt matter, PBS and autorefit still are very different things :)
18:03:22  <frosch123> my space restrictions are usually of the type that i have to build single track, as there is no room for a second one
18:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> if you put junctions at stations, like 2 crossing double track lines, then you get orders of magnitudes more compact with path signals
18:04:19  <V453000> yes but the X probably wont have the best throughput :)
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18:05:05  <V453000> I dont even think space efficiency is different, our aim just is to have all tracks able to handle maximum traffic
18:05:15  <V453000> which, of course, is not possible with PBS spam
18:05:32  <V453000> of course PBS is more space effective, you could pretty much apply that to any situation
18:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and of course my famous example of a crossing that is impossible to handle correctly without path signals (or bridges):,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png
18:07:10  <V453000> yes of course PBS has its uses
18:07:25  <V453000> it has a lot more uses in fact, idk what do you mean with that argument
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18:08:45  <frosch123> i don't get the joke...
18:08:53  <frosch123> there are not pbs signals in that screenshot, are there?
18:09:15  <V453000> no but the junction is probably pretty broken at this point
18:09:24  <V453000> because block signals cant really handle that too well
18:10:09  <frosch123> ah, so eddi means to rebuild that junction with pbs
18:10:24  <V453000> but as that is basically just agreeing on the point that PBS can be used for some of its functions, autorefit is different as it has no use
18:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes. that was one of the most problematic locations before i used YAPP
18:11:50  <frosch123> anyway, you did not set "build semaphores" to 1492
18:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> no, why would i? :)
18:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i put it to 1970 :)
18:14:55  <frosch123> it's like a logic puzzle
18:15:03  <frosch123> you see the tracks and where signals are
18:15:19  <frosch123> then you have to figure out the signal types
18:15:27  <frosch123> wrt. what would make sense
18:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause> only if you're not used to them :)
18:16:14  <frosch123> maybe there should be a signal placement app for your handy
18:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> btw, the sign posts are the same
18:16:39  <frosch123> yeah, but pbs vs. combo is hard
18:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the problem of that crossing is the entrance of the wood station from the bottom, which crosses with the entrance of the passenger station from the right.
18:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can only presignal one of them, not both
18:18:10  <frosch123> pbs is just a better combo signal
18:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> in that case, yes
18:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a screenshot of that same crossing with PBS later in that game
18:18:59  <V453000> if you build 100% properly, combo signals should almost never be used in fact :) or at least not in cases when 2 combo signals lead to a single block
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18:19:55  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there are solutions to that crossing without combo signals, but they all require more space
18:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause> "solution" as in: it never locks up
18:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> which in the current situation happens when 3 wood trains arrive at the same time
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18:20:48  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: there is a trivial soluition: remove all combo signals
18:20:52  <V453000> well yeah, with that track layout you really have to use PBS, but nobody is saying that you have to keep that track layout
18:20:52  <frosch123> it will not lock up
18:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it will have near-zero throughput :)
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18:46:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24765 /trunk/src/lang (9 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-25 18:45:48 UTC)
18:46:04  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:05  <DorpsGek> basque - 2 changes by lutxiketa
18:46:06  <DorpsGek> belarusian - 32 changes by Wowanxm
18:46:07  <DorpsGek> finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
18:46:08  <DorpsGek> german - 5 changes by planetmaker
18:46:09  <DorpsGek> japanese - 1 changes by nex259
18:46:10  <DorpsGek> korean - 4 changes by telk5093
18:46:11  <DorpsGek> portuguese - 23 changes by skkeeper
18:46:12  <DorpsGek> russian - 5 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:46:13  <DorpsGek> spanish - 5 changes by Terkhen
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19:17:02  <Sacro> \o/
19:19:30  <NGC3982> Bah.
19:19:41  <NGC3982> I always suffer from making too many trains.
19:25:50  <Pinkbeast> But I *like* trains
19:27:02  <Pinkbeast> ... in particular I would like it if there were trains from Cambridge to King's Cross today. GAH
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19:57:11  <andythenorth> which beer?
19:57:27  <Pinkbeast> 1845, please
19:59:14  <frosch123> he asked "which", not "how many"
19:59:32  <Pinkbeast> That is an answer to "which"
19:59:48  <Supercheese> 1366 is better (Stella Artois) :P
20:00:10  * Pinkbeast makes a moue of distaste, mostly just to write moue
20:01:40  <andythenorth> Asahi, Moretti, and something called Estrella
20:01:55  <andythenorth> will be arriving at my house in some small bijou lorry soon
20:02:03  <Supercheese> "Star" beer, eh?
20:03:27  <Prof_Frink> "Which beer" is a trick question because Eve's Idea isn't a beer.
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20:05:17  <andythenorth> I wonder if amazon mechanical turk will finish converting FIRS for me
20:06:06  <andythenorth> I ma bored
20:06:13  <andythenorth> copy-paste-edit
20:06:14  <andythenorth> compile
20:06:16  <andythenorth> wait
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20:07:56  <NGC3982> "Amazon Mechanical Turk"?
20:08:07  <andythenorth> yes
20:08:16  <NGC3982> Oh, it's not even a joke
20:08:16  <andythenorth> i.e. I pay strangers to do this work
20:08:49  <NGC3982> That sound's like a good idea.
20:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> copy-paste sounds like a bad idea
20:14:36  <andythenorth> I should probably figure out an automatic migration :P
20:14:44  <andythenorth> but who's that smart? :)
20:14:49  <andythenorth> not andythenorth
20:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "'nichts leichter als das', sagte Frederik."
20:18:20  <frosch123> "und pickeldie ging mit frederik wieder nach hause"?
20:18:27  <frosch123> is that where the "zuhause" comes from?
20:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, it was "illegal" for me to even know this stuff :)
20:19:26  <frosch123> hmm, i thought that was eastern stuff
20:19:47  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it was the "western" sandmÀnnchen
20:20:21  <frosch123> ok, i never watched that... i thought there is only a eastern sandmÀnnchen
20:21:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the official spelling seems to be "Piggeldy"
20:21:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and "Frederick"
20:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause>
20:23:54  <Eddi|zuHause> in other news: Japan reveals maglev prototype:
20:26:16  <NGC3982> Oh
20:28:26  <Rubidium> they finally got approval for the Chūō Shinkansen?
20:28:46  <Rubidium> they've been playing with maglev for over 40 years now
20:29:27  <frosch123> maglev trains are like fusion power plants :)
20:32:55  <NGC3982> Please let them, and please use it everywhere.
20:33:11  <NGC3982> Regards, humanity.
20:33:35  <NGC3982> Speaking of, are there any serious disadvantages on using maglev?
20:33:39  <NGC3982> goo
20:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: plenty
20:34:09  <Supercheese> Cost, for one
20:34:17  <Supercheese> Lack of trained maintenance crew, another
20:34:29  <Supercheese> Cannot use existing infrastructure...
20:34:32  <Supercheese> the list goes on
20:34:36  <NGC3982> And both of those can't be mended as with the same factors for other rail types?
20:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't use the japanese maglev system for low-speed freight at all
20:35:31  <NGC3982> How is that?
20:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you need speeds > 100km/h to even "lift off" from the helper wheels, as it's a dynamic system
20:35:36  <NGC3982> Ah
20:35:46  <NGC3982> Well, i see a problem then.
20:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause> opposed to the german system, which is static
20:36:04  <NGC3982> Using two different rail systems for freight and pax is not a fruitfull task, i guess.
20:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause> even with a static system, you need additional energy to lift the "cargo", which is small for passengers, but very high for most freights
20:38:19  <NGC3982> I see.
20:39:21  <frosch123> so, even for pax it is not future proof since people become heavier
20:41:52  * andythenorth just became heavier
20:41:56  <andythenorth> I ate 3 sausages
20:42:06  <NGC3982> I have been eating all day.
20:42:07  <Rubidium> NGC3982: the Japanese high speed tracks don't have any cargo trains
20:42:13  <NGC3982> And it has been glorious.
20:42:25  <Rubidium> high speed normal gauge or maglev
20:43:29  <NGC3982> Sure, that might work for the Japanese, but using two different rail systems does not feel like a good idea (at least if you can avoid it, of course :P).
20:44:03  <Rubidium> Japanese non-high speed is generally narrow gauge
20:44:41  <Rubidium> NGC3982: cargo trains are a massive no-go for efficient high speed rail networks
20:44:48  <Rubidium> as cargo trains are slow
20:45:04  <NGC3982> So, using two systems are unavoidable?
20:45:09  <NGC3982> (For now)?
20:45:56  <Supercheese> France said "screw it" and separated out their high speed rail system...
20:45:57  <Rubidium> ever seen the time table of the Shinkansen?
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20:48:30  <Eddi|zuHause> japan used a new independent track system because they had to, france used a new independent track system because they could, and germany didn't use a new track system, but instead fiddled a few new tracks inbetween existing railway nodes
20:48:50  <Rubidium> hmm, 'only' 130 trains Tokyo -> Shin-Osaka a day
20:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so every ~10 minutes?
20:50:08  <Rubidium> every 7 minutes on average (from 06:00 - 21:20)
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20:50:44  <NGC3982> I see.
20:51:15  <Rubidium> every 5 minutes during rush hour
20:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> one ICE track in germany was calculated to need a fully occupied ICE every 4 minutes to be financially repaying itself within 40 years :)
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20:52:50  <Rubidium> and IIRC mostly 16 car trains
20:53:44  <Rubidium> NGC3982: and now imagine that those 130 trains include 'stop' trains that stop at every station, some semi-fast ones that don't stop at a few stations and fast ones that barely stop at all
20:54:50  <NGC3982> Heh
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20:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i assume they solved it better than the germans on the KRM line (Köln-Frankfurt), where exactly the international trains serve the intermediate stops in Limburg and Montabaur :)
20:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is as far as i heard a result of lack of trains to run on the line)
20:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause> (new trains are ordered, but they are delayed because of technical problems)
20:57:41  * NGC3982 crasched trains.
20:57:46  <NGC3982> chashed*
20:58:15  <Rubidium> that Shinkansen line Tokyo <-> Osaka has 400k riders/day, which is peanuts compared to the Yamonote Line in Tokyo which has 4 million riders/day
20:58:18  <NGC3982>
20:58:21  <NGC3982> Always.
20:58:24  <__ln___> today's RTL news said something like Siemens is having troubel delivering ICE3s in time, possibly due to a software problem.
20:58:27  <NGC3982> 400k riders a day?
20:58:29  <NGC3982> Jeez.
20:58:33  <NGC3982> My bus has like 30.
20:58:41  <NGC3982> Almost the same, yes.
20:59:06  <Rubidium> NGC3982: 150 million/year, so pretty much yes
20:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: "software problem" is a nice description :)
20:59:34  <Rubidium> London Underground has, in total, only 3.25 million riders/day
21:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: the main problem was that between pushing the "stop" button and the brakes starting has a 1 second delay of just processing the input
21:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: but that is just the _current_ problem, the trains should have been delivered a year ago!
21:02:32  <__ln___> very impatient people if they can't wait for 1 second! why don't the press the button 1s earlier then.
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21:06:22  <Bad_Brett> What indices of the palette should I use if I want to apply masks to 32bpp houses?
21:07:08  <Supercheese> recolor masks?
21:08:01  <andythenorth> should I make some simutrans paks?
21:08:17  <Supercheese> you've made simutrans .paks?
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21:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: 32bpp has no palette indices
21:09:42  <Supercheese> 8bpp masks do though, no?
21:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: you need a second image with the mask
21:10:00  <Supercheese> I think that's what he has
21:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know the details, but it should be a greyscale image
21:10:51  <andythenorth> is simutrans any good?
21:10:58  * andythenorth is killing time between FIRS compiles :P
21:11:01  <andythenorth> really really slow
21:11:05  <Supercheese> I tried it and didn't like it
21:11:08  <Supercheese> but YMMV
21:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, kinda played that ten years ago :)
21:11:35  <Bad_Brett> Yes, I have a 8bpp mask... greyscale? Not the blue background?
21:11:46  <andythenorth> what's the fastest desktop CPU I can buy for cheap?
21:11:58  <andythenorth> I'm only interested in single-core performance
21:12:03  <andythenorth> compiling python
21:12:09  <MNIM> define 'cheap', define 'fast'
21:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "" <-- not sure how to read that version number
21:13:42  <andythenorth> MNIM: simple.  Compiles FIRS faster than my laptop
21:14:08  <andythenorth> laptop is some crappy laptop chip
21:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: enable compile-on-push on the compile farm?
21:14:57  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: already done :)
21:15:01  <andythenorth> but I can't push broken code :P
21:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> you can, just be prepared to handle the flood of emails :)
21:15:25  <andythenorth> I get yelled at :P
21:15:57  <andythenorth> MNIM: current chip is a crappy 2.9Ghz i7, burstable to 3.6GHz, 256KB L2 per core, 4MB L3 shared, 16GB RAM installed
21:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "openttd-0.4.0-win32.exe" ooooh... i still have this anomaly :)
21:17:01  <Rubidium> andythenorth: Pentium 4?
21:17:05  <andythenorth> I suspect IO might be slowing FIRS, but I have an SSD and I doubt I can do much more other than create a RAM disk :P
21:17:16  <andythenorth> remember RAM disks? :P
21:17:28  <andythenorth> FIRS compile is 42s
21:17:30  <andythenorth> boring boring boring
21:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: /dev/shm
21:17:58  <MNIM> ...'crappy'
21:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: easiest way to use a "ramdisk"
21:18:46  <MNIM> I would gladly take it from you if you don't want it any more... :P
21:18:51  <michi_cc> Desktop i7's max out at single core boost of 3.9 Ghz, but they definitely don't fit cheap. And AMD is much worse for single thread.
21:19:09  <andythenorth> I just want a dumb box in the corner, and a 20s FIRS compile time :P
21:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> memory is my current blocker for CETS compilation
21:19:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "the cloud"
21:20:04  * MNIM shudders
21:20:08  <MNIM> you did not just say that
21:20:27  <andythenorth> "the cloud" has crappy CPUs :P
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21:23:00  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should try a CETS run on the other computer...
21:29:29  <Terkhen> good night
21:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> ImportError: No module named ply.lex
21:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> hmzz...
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21:31:14  <drac_boy> hi
21:32:08  <Bad_Brett> hello friend!
21:33:03  <Supercheese> anyway... was the 32bpp mask question answered?
21:33:26  <drac_boy> hi cheesy cheese :P
21:33:28  <drac_boy> heh heh
21:34:01  <Bad_Brett> nope, it wasn't :)
21:34:15  <Supercheese> What are you trying to do? Company color?
21:34:48  <Bad_Brett> i'm trying to apply the four random colours
21:35:38  <Supercheese> the color cycles? Fire/water/etc?
21:36:02  <Bad_Brett> the random_colours property
21:36:07  <Bad_Brett>
21:36:33  <Supercheese> I think you might use Company Color for that
21:36:40  <Supercheese> not sure though
21:36:59  <Supercheese> yeah, seems like company color from the wiki
21:37:11  * andythenorth -> bed
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21:37:55  <Bad_Brett> that was the first thing i tried, but it didn't work. the house just turns blue... but i'll do some more experimenting
21:38:04  <Supercheese> Oh, hmm...
21:38:17  * Supercheese hasn't don't any masks for 32bpp yet
21:38:21  <Supercheese> hasn't done*
21:38:24  <Supercheese> jeez bad typo
21:39:03  <Supercheese> although I have "dont" set to automatically filter to "don't", so it's not like I hit the apostrophe :P
21:40:34  <MNIM> I have to
21:40:48  <MNIM> except that it corrects my don'ts to donts
21:40:58  <MNIM> face-f-ing-palm
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21:41:52  <Supercheese> Now if only I could write a script that auto-filters between its/it's and there/their/they're appropriately...
21:42:56  <MNIM> yeah, there's no excuse for switching out there their and they're
21:44:16  <Supercheese> there/their/they're are easy, but I tend to screw up its/it's a lot...
21:44:55  <Rubidium> its vs it's is easy as well: can you write it as "it is"?
21:45:10  <Bad_Brett> nope, doesn't work... frustrating.
21:45:24  <Supercheese> Oh, the logic behind it is easy, I just type so fast I screw it up
21:45:32  <MNIM> exactly.
21:45:50  <MNIM> Ill admit my it's/its aren't flawless either
21:46:54  <Bad_Brett> any suggestions?
21:47:17  <Supercheese> Well, you've already tried company color, that's what I would have thought
21:47:34  <Supercheese> perhaps having a look at zbase would be enlightening
21:48:18  <Supercheese> or so
21:49:10  <Supercheese>
21:49:13  <Supercheese>
21:49:16  <Supercheese>
21:49:25  <Supercheese> those seem to be implementing the random_color for industries
21:49:28  <Supercheese> lemme check houses
21:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: did you try it in 8bpp mode first?
21:51:40  <Bad_Brett> Nope, I'll try that as well.
21:51:43  <Supercheese> Statue has random_color too, I think:
21:52:09  <Supercheese> hope that helps :)
21:52:39  <michi_cc> According to the code the random_colours property + 775 is the recolour map used (table is at
21:52:46  <frosch123> Bad_Brett: for most houses you have to use the "struct" recolournig
21:53:04  <frosch123> but some few original houses also use the company colours
21:53:30  <michi_cc> frosch123: That's only for sprite replacement, isn't it? NewHouses seem to allow all normal recoulours.
21:53:39  <frosch123> so, it makes a big diffference whether you are doing something for a baseset, or for a newgrf
21:53:49  <Bad_Brett> it's a newgrf
21:54:16  <Bad_Brett> zbase seems to use 32bpp mask files? or am i insane?
21:54:24  <Supercheese> Hmm, I dunno
21:54:33  <frosch123> yes, newgrfs use normal cc
21:54:36  <frosch123> (or 2cc)
21:57:00  <Bad_Brett> now i'm really confused... zbase masks don't seem to use the palette at all(?) i can't even compile the grf without a proper palette on the mask files
21:57:22  <Supercheese> perhaps baseset does stuff way different
21:57:40  <Bad_Brett> yes, maybe...
21:57:41  <Supercheese> :S
21:57:51  <Rubidium> Bad_Brett: the 8bpp-ised mask files are in the 8bpp folders
21:58:07  <Bad_Brett> ah, alright. thanks
21:58:42  <Rubidium> Zephyris creates the mask files with blender as well and then with a load of scripts it's converted into the right format
21:59:52  <Mister_Argent|2> I think i might get back to my current single-player mode. Been playing with FIRS to mix things up...
21:59:58  *** Mister_Argent|2 is now known as Mister_Argent
22:01:04  <Bad_Brett> yeah, i create them in 3ds max and automatically convert them with a script as well
22:01:37  *** Hyronymus [] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus]
22:01:52  <Bad_Brett> btw, should i use the windows palette or the dos palette? that might be the error
22:02:12  <Rubidium> I'd use the DOS palette
22:02:19  <Rubidium> since it has more colours
22:02:32  <Bad_Brett> that's the one i'm using
22:02:35  <Rubidium> and a more logical construction
22:02:41  <Bad_Brett> but zbase seems to use the win palette
22:07:06  <Bad_Brett> the weird thing is that the exact same mask files work perfectly on vehicles
22:08:54  <frosch123> well, did you enable the recolouring?
22:10:35  <frosch123> i mean "recolour_mode: RECOLOUR_REMAP" in the spritelayout
22:12:05  <Bad_Brett> let me check
22:12:31  <Bad_Brett> nope! that must be it!
22:12:42  *** Sturmi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:13:34  <Bad_Brett> stupid me, i was 100% sure i enabled it yesterday
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22:18:07  <Bad_Brett> thanks a lot, it works perfectly now
22:18:21  <Supercheese> :D
22:20:31  <Bad_Brett> so cheese, is your new project underway yet?
22:20:34  <Mister_Argent> Arg. One of my trains won't leave the depot...
22:20:44  <Mister_Argent> "Heading for Brenham Woods, 0km/h"
22:21:15  <drac_boy> Mister_Argent bad signal? ;)
22:21:29  <Mister_Argent> no signals at all, actually. propably a wierd track stup...
22:21:59  <drac_boy> actually the depot is ALWAYS a signal fyi ;)
22:22:28  *** Sturmi [] has joined #openttd
22:24:52  <frosch123> night
22:24:58  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:25:08  <Mister_Argent> ...oh, my wierd track change/depot access thing was confusing the train somehow
22:27:29  <Mister_Argent> ...The AI is trying to steal my oil i think
22:29:06  <drac_boy> heh doubt it..probably you have crappy service? :)
22:29:11  <drac_boy> otherwise no idea
22:29:39  <Mister_Argent> There's a AI also transporting oil from the refinery i provide oil to...
22:29:56  <Mister_Argent> I recall there being some trick you could do with a well-aimed train derailing to destroy their cars.
22:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that bug was fixed looong ago
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22:55:16  <Mister_Argent> aww
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23:16:12  <Wolf01> 'night
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