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00:01:56 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:08:26 *** Flygon_ [Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:08:59 *** Sturmi [~sturmi@p4FEDCA9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Sturmi] 00:18:27 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A19A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:20:45 *** Flygon [Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:22:35 <Flygon> drac_boy: http://www.vicsig.net/ http://www.railpage.com.au/ 00:26:14 <drac_boy> for something so similar to an usa steeplecab locomotive this is interesting http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/5/52/Toyohashi_211.jpg 00:26:19 <drac_boy> oh hi flygon finally :p 00:27:19 <drac_boy> mm thanks haven't seen latter yet I think 00:29:56 <drac_boy> how're you still flygon? 00:30:15 <Flygon> Decent enough 00:30:18 <Flygon> Still waking up 00:30:27 <Flygon> Heh... 00:30:40 <Flygon> We had a VERY similar steeplecab design 00:30:45 <Flygon> One of the E-class locomotives used it 00:30:59 <Flygon> E-class is probably one of the few without a fixed visual design 00:31:32 <drac_boy> well steeplecabs were probably a reasonable decent low-cost design .. plus the sloped-down nose probably make it easier to always see the ground shunting crewmember or something too 00:32:15 <drac_boy> did not have much to put under the hood in first place....sand...maybe a small folding toilet...some tools....the transformer if needed (small tho)..etc 00:34:51 <drac_boy> already plan to have 2 or 3 choices in my list already :-> 00:36:45 <drac_boy> flygon btw did you know that the uk Deltic was supposed to have a more sculptured nose but there was some arguement and so the 'cleaned up' version was used instead even although it had a minor visual design fault with it? 00:36:54 <drac_boy> still at least it looked nice :) 00:37:48 <Flygon> Phone, sorry 00:38:14 <Flygon> The UK Deltic? 00:39:19 <Flygon> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/E1101steeplecab.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/VR_E_class_1102.JPG E-class, btw 00:39:24 *** chester_ [~chester@95-26-50-210.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:39:29 <Flygon> Both were built to the same specs. Mostly used for interurban goods 00:39:59 <Flygon> But lacked the horsepower for acceptable passenger use by the 1950s, so they got obsoleted by the L-class 00:41:04 <Flygon> Victorian Railways wanted to electricy every single mainline by 1960. They ran out of money doing just one line. Probably because they did the toughest one first. >_>" 00:41:13 <Flygon> Doesn't help they used 1500V DC... 00:41:49 <drac_boy> heh :-> 00:42:33 <drac_boy> mm I see 00:42:54 <drac_boy> well flygon interestingly enough I have some low-power locomotives for different years 00:43:18 <drac_boy> mainly to be cheap ... nothing like having a single short rail link with a 700hp engine running slowly back n forth 00:43:21 <drac_boy> :) 00:43:28 <Flygon> Ah, hahaha, yes 00:43:34 <Flygon> Victorian Railways were HUGE fans of that :p 00:43:38 <drac_boy> (next to a 2500hp drag locomotive waiting at the other station) 00:43:57 <drac_boy> in usa maps you kinda do the same thing by using the EMD SW locomotives 00:44:05 <drac_boy> eg SW600 which meant it had 600hp 00:44:11 <Flygon> Makes sense 00:44:23 <drac_boy> yeah .. the emd names were interesting... 00:44:26 <Flygon> (http://www.thecollectormm.com.au/gallery/photography/Trams/slides/VRtram2.jpg This probably had more horsepower than half of VR's other fleet :p) 00:44:36 <drac_boy> SW is switcher ... sometimes could be found shunting coaches in stations tho... 00:44:46 <drac_boy> GP is .. duh .. General Purpose .. freights or passengers whatever 00:45:03 <drac_boy> and SD I never could figure out but basically 6 axles instead of 4 ... heavier freights 00:45:37 <drac_boy> there were also early diesels labelled TR .. short to TRansfer .. basically moving freights back n forth .. sometimes being only a yard-to-yard locomotive even 00:45:48 <drac_boy> thats all I know of anyhow ^^ 00:45:56 <Flygon> Special Delivery? 00:46:21 <drac_boy> heh no 00:46:24 <Flygon> Dang :p 00:46:40 <Flygon> Here, you memorize letters and hope for the best 00:46:49 <drac_boy> btw flygon... 00:46:59 <drac_boy> japan had a bit more or less similar system although not always used... 00:47:24 <drac_boy> EF would meant Electric Freight ... EP you can figure that out ... DE being Diesel-Electric I recall .. etc 00:47:26 <Flygon> Not that it isn't unusual to have a Shunter Diesel and High Speed Steam Loco coupled together... and used for long distance rail 00:47:56 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:48:02 <drac_boy> uk may not have names but they have numbers .... single digit more than often is a shunter (that goes for the 09 Gronks too) 00:48:19 * Flygon nod 00:48:21 <drac_boy> and 20-40s are .. well .. earlier mainline diesels .... I don't know much about the higher numbers 00:48:27 <Flygon> I never really liked the UK system 00:48:30 <Flygon> Too confusing :p 00:48:39 <drac_boy> of course anything thats 1xx is a one-car or 2-car mu set 00:48:42 <Flygon> And also New South Wales adopted it. And NSW is mortal enemy. :B 00:48:47 <drac_boy> including the original 10x bouncy ones 00:49:40 <drac_boy> flygon heh heh 00:50:13 <Flygon> NSWGR: Unintentionally making 3801 memetic since 193something @_@ 00:51:46 <Flygon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/25653307@N03/5147241866/in/photostream Holy Hell. It looks like something out of a James Bond film involving Italy. Not 1970s Melbourne @_@ 00:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> these things went in lots of cities. they're called trams... 00:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's driving on the left 00:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so italy kinda drops out :) 00:54:08 <Flygon> Eddi: I never notice driving on the left issues. I'm Australian. :p 00:54:24 <Flygon> Point is, mirror the photograph, fix the text, boom, instant Italy 00:54:35 <Flygon> And trams died out nearly everywhere by 1971 :p 00:54:55 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 00:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not around here :) 00:55:03 <Flygon> I said nearly 00:55:08 <Flygon> Where're you from? 00:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> east germany 00:55:34 <Flygon> That explains a fair bit :) 00:55:52 <glx> trams are back here 00:56:45 <Flygon> From around Melbourne, here. Trams never exactly so much died as they... lingered. The MMTB (?) head was a huge fan of trams, and probably the only reason the network didn't get disassembled (He successfully argued that the network is so large, it'd cheaper to keep running trams) 00:57:16 <Flygon> glx: Where? 00:57:25 <glx> france 00:57:30 <Flygon> Ahh 00:57:47 <Flygon> I'm a tad surprised they died out at all, in France, given how much the country likes it's historical image... 00:58:02 <Flygon> In Australia, we lack historicalness. So we build historicalness and claim it's historical :B 00:58:27 <glx> they disapeared because cars usage was growing 00:58:31 <Flygon> Well, European style historicalness 00:58:42 <Flygon> Nobody ever remembers the aborigines :( 00:58:48 <glx> but now municipalities tend to try to reduce cars usage 00:58:54 <Flygon> Yeah, same reason almost every other Australian city lost trams 00:59:22 <glx> and when you create a tram line you reduce space for cars 00:59:23 <Flygon> The only real holdouts were Melbourne... with Bendigo, Adelaide being a distant second, and Ballarat being a faaar third 00:59:46 <Flygon> Yeah, that's why the trams got removed from Sydney. Despite Sydney having the largest tram network EVER 00:59:51 <Flygon> Their streets are narrow 01:00:30 <Flygon> (similar reason they got removed from Brisbane. Along with Government corruption permitting 'accidental' fires of the rollingstock) 01:00:45 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:00:53 <Flygon> Melbourne's lucky, in that it has wide streets, and Adelaide's network, if you call it that, is mostly on it's own RoW 01:01:36 <Flygon> But, yeah, here's hoping they can build the lines again. This time, with 5+ car lengths in mind... 01:02:08 <Flygon> Melbourne's kinda screwed. We have a 19th centery archiatecture, with 20th centery running style, with 21st centery trams 01:02:31 <Flygon> They're terrified of running the 3 and 5 car trams outside of certain lines, because the curve raidus may induce derailing 01:02:45 <__ln___> century 01:03:06 <Flygon> I knew I was spelling that wrong 01:03:07 <Flygon> Thanks 01:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he meant center-y, as in inbetween left-y and right-y 01:04:25 <Flygon> Nonono 01:04:29 <drac_boy> heh 01:04:30 <Flygon> __ln___ is corrrect 01:04:48 <glx> 2 'r' are enough ;) 01:10:32 <drac_boy> whats the most common ac electrification voltage? (excluding the recent highspeed-only lines which isn't what I quite had in mind) 01:11:25 * __ln___ has used trams in 9 countries, on 2 continents 01:12:47 <Flygon> I'd say... 1500V DC 01:12:49 <drac_boy> for dc I think it was 1500V wasn't it? 01:12:58 <drac_boy> Flygon ac not dc you silly aussie :P 01:13:14 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:14:14 <glx> 15kV 16 2/3 Hz and 25Kv 50Hz here 01:14:25 <Flygon> Ah 01:14:29 <Flygon> AC voltage in Australia? 01:14:37 <Flygon> 25kV 50Hz here 01:14:57 <Flygon> But the only place AC is actually used is Queensland and South Australia 01:15:03 <drac_boy> hmm had thought it may had been 25 ... thanks 01:15:18 <drac_boy> so I guess thats it.. 1500vdc or 25000vac in tracking table then 01:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> 15kV AC is used in germany, switzerland, austria and sweden 01:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> 25kV AC in the rest of the world 01:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> (in the places that don't use DC) 01:17:14 <glx> many trains can run with more than 1 voltage 01:17:23 <drac_boy> japan had 20kV for some reason too tho 01:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the 15kV system is the older one 01:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is not so much the voltage, but rather the frequency 01:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 16 2/3 Hz vs. 50 Hz 01:19:55 <glx> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/voltage_map_europe.php 01:20:27 <Flygon> It's kind of hilarious how Australia has a more unified Voltage than it does Rail Gauge :p 01:21:17 <glx> oh I though we had 15kV too, but we have not 01:21:31 <glx> it's just some trains can use it like Thalys 01:22:05 <drac_boy> :) 01:22:47 <__ln___> so while sweden/norway and germany have 15kV, the smart danes in between have chosen 25kV... 01:23:15 <Flygon> Sure sure, Thalys can do voltage change, but can it do a gauge change and solve Australia's problems? :D 01:23:42 <Flygon> C'mooooon Talgo, strut your stuff here someday... 01:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: interesting about the left/right track usage in france is that the switchover is (still) at the border of 1871 01:25:37 <glx> Flygon: why change gauge when almost all europe use standard gauge ? 01:25:47 <Flygon> Because Spain uses a different gauge :p 01:25:54 <glx> well except the silly spanish ;) 01:26:05 <Flygon> And Russia, if you consider then European :p 01:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there are multi-gauge trains in europe 01:26:34 <Flygon> ...and if I really feel like extrapolating, Australia's sorta European... you guys certainly colonized the hell out of Australia :D 01:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> mostly to russia, but some also to spain (before they re-gauged their main lines) 01:27:00 <glx> was not a colony at the begining 01:27:31 <Flygon> glx: A Prison Colony is still a Colony 01:27:45 <Flygon> It just means that it's got more Irishmen than anything else 01:28:51 <Flygon> But, yeah, Eddi, didn't the Spanish end up implementing an on-the-go gauge switch system? 01:29:13 <drac_boy> glx interesting link and btw the 'DC advantage' page shows exactly why I actually liked it oddly 01:29:26 <Flygon> What advantage of DC? 01:29:46 <drac_boy> 'simple technology' and 'suitable for lines with relatively short trains' 01:29:53 <drac_boy> or in another word: cheap 01:29:54 <drac_boy> :) 01:30:19 <Flygon> Ahh 01:30:30 <Flygon> It's not cheap when you start electrifying long lines :p 01:30:40 <__ln___> what if Russia is using the (almost) standard gauge and the rest of Europe is non-standard? 01:30:46 <drac_boy> flygon one another thing tho is... 01:31:18 <drac_boy> with dc you can let substations join together anytime .. with ac you have to insulate each block or go into expensive sine-matching circuits 01:31:49 <Flygon> Really? 01:31:56 <Flygon> Huh 01:31:59 <Flygon> I see 01:32:21 <drac_boy> flygon...beside think about this... 01:32:24 <Flygon> __ln___: Funny story about that. 1600mm was suppose to be standard gauge in Australia. But New South Wales went to 1435mm and told nobody else 01:32:38 <glx> 1435 is standard :) 01:32:44 <Flygon> Queensland's exempt from criticism because they used 1067mm gauge... which makes dual gauge rail trivial 01:32:55 <Flygon> glx: This is back in the 1840s and 1850s 01:33:17 <drac_boy> if the ac substation A was timed at 27ms after each minute ... and substation B was timed at 41ms after each minute ... that means the two waves would clash with each others..maybe shorten out 01:33:27 <drac_boy> but with dc ... two lines touch each other .. nothing happens 01:33:36 <drac_boy> sorry if that sound a bit dumbed down way to explain it 01:33:44 <Flygon> And what about high voltage DC? How practical is that? 01:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: 700.000 km vs. 200.000 km tells different :) 01:34:01 <Flygon> Would 25kV DC get rid of some of the attenuation issues? 01:34:10 <drac_boy> no idea sorry 01:34:16 <Flygon> Damn 01:34:28 <Flygon> That's the huge issue with DC here. Attenuation as hell. 01:34:44 <Flygon> To the point where lines are actually having capacity issues from substation load, not signalling 01:35:33 <Flygon> And to replace all the remaining 1500V DC trains with 25kV trains is... well 01:35:37 <__ln___> We have 1524mm (5 ft). Not sure if it's used anywhere else anymore, as Soviet Union chose 1520mm. 01:35:41 <Flygon> You'd be replacing more than 50% of the network 01:35:54 <Flygon> Er, 50% of the rollingstoc 01:36:19 <drac_boy> flygon don't know if I had told you before but anyway... 01:36:36 <drac_boy> one of the interesting thing about city-only (or close) low-voltage dc electrification is.... 01:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: 4mm is usually within the allowed margins anyway 01:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: typically, the faster you go, the wider the track should be 01:37:13 <drac_boy> sometimes they simply take the third rail voltage .. feed it through a surge protection .. then directly to the controller n traction motor ... no need for any stepdown at all 01:37:31 <glx> soviet trains were fast ? 01:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. 1435mm could also be 1440mm on high speed lines 01:37:47 <__ln___> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, the two gauges are fully compatible in practice. 01:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: no, the other way around :) 01:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: i have heard of some wagons which were sold from a 750mm line to a 760mm line, and ran there without modifications 01:40:18 <drac_boy> Flygon btw any particular NG australia locomotive I should look at? 01:40:32 <Flygon> Uuuh 01:40:38 <Flygon> The entirety of Queensland 01:40:38 <drac_boy> just had to ask :p 01:40:48 <Flygon> Worlds LARGEST 1067mm network 01:41:24 <Flygon> They've perfected parts of it to the point where they 1-up Japan easily 01:41:53 <Flygon> And I imagine they have good relations with South Africa :p 01:43:09 <drac_boy> well....no they didn't one-up japan sorry :P 01:43:27 <Flygon> I've yet to see a Japanese NG train beat 210km/h 01:43:42 <drac_boy> is it everyday service at that speed? 01:43:48 <Flygon> ...god dammit 01:43:57 <Flygon> No, it caps between 160km/h to 177km/h @_@ 01:44:02 <Flygon> Same as the rest of Australia 01:44:13 <Flygon> But, still, technically, fastest Australian train 01:44:36 <Flygon> (can't wait til V/Line upgrade some BG track and break QLD's record :p) 01:44:59 <drac_boy> heh well 160 .... japan got a little bit over 140 in the 1960s so I don't think I want to comment :P 01:45:13 <Flygon> Hmm 01:45:16 <Flygon> 1960s... 01:45:21 <Flygon> Dunno what QLD got then 01:45:33 <Flygon> Their history isn't as well documented as the rest of the country 01:46:25 <drac_boy> mm 01:46:41 <Flygon> Can't imagine them getting 140 though 01:47:16 <Flygon> Vic and NSW getting over 160km/h was considered a miracle back then... 01:47:38 <Flygon> While QLD was still using rather old Steam Locos for actual services until the mid/late-70s 01:47:57 <Flygon> Which really really didn't help the perception that QLD is backwards as hell 01:47:59 <drac_boy> heh 01:48:10 <Flygon> As much as the Steam Loco themselves were probably pretty good 01:48:46 <Flygon> In fact, the first train to break 160km/h in Queensland wasn't a NG train 01:49:03 <drac_boy> flygon don't forget that japan had extended steam life .. only because they did not go into diesels much so non-electric lines for obvious reason had nothing else to use till the eventual DD15 etc finally 01:49:10 <Flygon> It was an SG branchline from New South Wales, using the XPT (a variant of the BR Intercity 125 train) 01:49:40 <Flygon> Japan has much shorter lines, compared to USA and Australia. I imagine the costs of steam was less expensive to Japan. 01:49:41 <drac_boy> even then passenger services at least had the KiHA which was a dmu 01:50:03 <Flygon> Meanwhile, Queensland has some of Austalia's longest lines @_@ 01:50:28 <Flygon> Though, iirc, they did import some Diesels from Western Australia (who also use a large Narrow Gauge network, but mostly around Perth) 01:50:33 <drac_boy> flygon well you could count the number of japan diesel locomotives on a single short piece of paper .. seriously 01:50:41 <Flygon> Wow O_O 01:50:42 <drac_boy> compared to a longer list for steam and several pages for electrics 01:50:59 <drac_boy> no wonder japan had steam for as long as they did 01:51:15 <Flygon> We won't show the Japanese lists of American, Australian, or Soviet Diesels, then :p 01:51:30 <drac_boy> flygon actually here's the funny thing... 01:51:51 <drac_boy> some of the early steam locomotives were direct american designs 01:52:04 <drac_boy> even the cowcatcher is....a bit too familiar 01:52:11 <Flygon> Isn't that because they got help from the Americans to build their early lines? 01:53:11 <drac_boy> so why was it gauged to something not 4'8? ;) 01:53:29 <Flygon> Because it was cheaper 01:53:40 <drac_boy> actually it wasn't quite that 01:53:45 <Flygon> Japan wanted to put a line through a mountainious region 01:53:54 <drac_boy> it was british who shipped the initial rolling stocks 01:53:54 <Flygon> Same reason Victoria used NG lines. Despite being historically BG crazy. 01:54:05 <drac_boy> and strangely enough these colony wagons were narrow gauge 01:54:17 <Dr_Tan> probably for the same reason 01:54:18 <Dr_Tan> cheaper 01:54:25 <Dr_Tan> easier to deploy in the mounitans 01:54:32 <Flygon> Exactly 01:54:34 <drac_boy> dr_tan it may have been different had british shipped some of their own actual wagons over :) 01:54:41 <drac_boy> but who would know anymore :P 01:55:41 <Flygon> Perhaps they timetraveled to the future and saw Puffing Billy as the epitome of railways :p 01:57:06 <drac_boy> flygon but anyway by the time the 1950s was rolling on ... traffic was getting a bit bottlenecked ... and eventually after arguements including some personal ones the bullet design was eventually started .. and before you know it it eventually mushroomed to run all way north-south .. leaving the original rails for shorter distance trains alone instead 01:57:46 <Flygon> If they wanted a bullet train, they'd contact NSWGR and ask for the design specs of 3801 :p 01:59:20 <Flygon> The HSR that the Government wants to build here, probably wouldn't be independant rails all the way through 01:59:44 <Flygon> Apperantly it'll be cheaper to upgrade some existing rails along the route... good luck, they'll have to realign 90% of the route. :p 02:00:07 <drac_boy> here's another thing flygon... 02:00:26 * Flygon listens 02:00:34 <drac_boy> japan may have been slow with diesels but these days they may have some of the most advanced diesel in certain categories 02:00:41 <Flygon> Oh? 02:00:56 <drac_boy> including tilting express dmu trains (for the hokoi island up north .. little electrification at all there) 02:01:15 <Flygon> Tilting Express Diesels, eh? 02:01:40 <Flygon> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7129/7792940352_1a28dba2ff_z.jpg :D 02:02:01 <drac_boy> yeah....since they couldn't upper the track speed for safety reason (sighting mainly) they simply made the curves "less curvy" hence higher average speed over the entire route nevertheless 02:02:19 <drac_boy> thats one of the good thing about tilting ... but japan sometimes was a bit too good at it 02:02:28 <Flygon> Oooh? 02:03:06 <drac_boy> flygon don't forget about that time uk tried it and found one "error" they should had not put there in first place.... 02:03:16 <drac_boy> it tilted "a bit too well" that people got seasick :-> 02:03:18 <Flygon> (also, Queensland actually bodged the Diesel and Electric Tilt Trains design a bit. Sure, it can go 210km/h+... but they used air for the tilt mechanism, to save money. It's apperantly uncomfortable) 02:03:44 <drac_boy> apparently you're not supposed to fully compensate (for lack of wording) the curvation ... only partially 02:03:54 <Flygon> Britian was still experimenting with the tilt mechanisms, they didn't know it'd happen like that 02:03:55 <Flygon> Shame 02:04:00 <Flygon> APT was a great concept 02:04:14 <Flygon> Would have worked great in Australia, especially New South Wales 02:04:24 <drac_boy> heh 02:04:55 <Flygon> The XPT in NSW is gimped by Victorian era curves... so it ends up @ 50-60km/h instead of 160km/h+ 02:05:17 <Flygon> It's topped 193km/h (it's got lower gearing than the BR125) 02:05:35 <drac_boy> btw flygon canada had a bit of "spotty" history mainly from the government level (what else is new?) ... 02:06:15 <Flygon> (at least when Victoria decided to go for 160km/h+... they actually upgraded the damn tracks, and realigned them. :p) 02:06:55 <drac_boy> there was the TurboTrain that was quite reliable later on and quite fast but before it had been 100% ironed out the gov told VIA to look elsewhere .... at the taxpayer's cost ... and thats how the LRC came .. but soon it was found out that their mechanical cable-worked tilting was faulty a lot of the times so the train was rebuilt to never tilt ... and well meh ... don't ask what replaced the LRC after only a short time again 02:06:57 <drac_boy> too 02:07:36 <Flygon> The Turbotrain had the potential for brilliance... 02:07:39 <Flygon> Shame it never happened 02:08:15 <drac_boy> even then the current EMD F40PH powered (diesel-electric) locomotive trains don't exactly have any worthy records ... it takes about the same time as a nonstopping car to travel between any two cities ... meaning about 100-120km/h average speed :| 02:09:09 <drac_boy> flygon the funny thing tho is that at least the canadian turbotrain fared better than the usa ones .. amtrak basically 'drove them into the ground' mainly over not understanding their higher maintenance needs 02:09:22 <Flygon> Don't more Canadians use coaches anyway? Partially due to how bad the train system is? 02:09:38 <drac_boy> when amtrak tried to sell the few trainsets they had left to canada ... all the 2 canada people found were basically "rusty scraps" with nothing that could be even salvaged at all 02:09:51 <Flygon> Geeze ._. 02:09:52 <Flygon> Wow 02:09:53 <drac_boy> so they didn't get anything except some small spare parts (chains, etc) 02:10:14 <Flygon> I can't believe it got THAT bad 02:10:42 <drac_boy> yeah 02:11:33 <drac_boy> flygon btw the french-designed (as I think it was) RoHR turbine trains on amtrak were ok but they got sidelined for various reasons .. and mostly scrapped eventually just as well 02:12:29 <Flygon> Amtrak don't seem to handle high speed diesel/turbine trains well >_>" 02:12:57 <glx> I don't think it's better for low speed ;) 02:13:07 <drac_boy> flygon a bit funny thing tho is... the Acela electric locomotives? originally they were going to be of the push-pull kind .. but no fra stepped in saying no way to the cab control cars ... and so thats how they had to order double the locomotives in an expensive top-and-tail short train 02:13:08 <Flygon> Hum? 02:13:27 <drac_boy> only in the last few years have they finally been deciding to spare money to add more coaches to these trains .. making it finally more or less worthy it 02:13:30 <Flygon> Both locos don't work at once? 02:13:40 <drac_boy> nothing like having two 8000HP engines with only like maybe five coaches etc 02:13:42 <Flygon> Or do they both push and pull? 02:13:42 <drac_boy> stupid fra! 02:13:56 <drac_boy> should had been just one 8000HP either pushing or pulling the coaches 02:14:07 <Flygon> I honestly thing you're better off with push-pulling anyway 02:14:17 <Flygon> More wheels driving the traction :p 02:14:21 <drac_boy> flygon tell that to the fra .... X_X 02:14:37 <Flygon> As in, push-pull here means, a loco on each end 02:15:30 <Flygon> http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r293/VIEWLINER/PTA/WT1.jpg 02:15:38 <drac_boy> at least interestingly enough the GO commuter system in toronto (canada) fell past the fra radar or something me think 02:15:53 <drac_boy> they have one single locomotive dealing with up to 12 bilevel cars in both directions :) 02:16:15 <Flygon> Interestingly, the H-sets would have had just 1 loco, with the other end being cab controlled 02:16:24 <drac_boy> a few trains on occassional do get two locomotives but thats only due to crunching HEP loads (eg 16 coaches to power&heat) 02:16:29 <Flygon> But the unions found that disgraceful 02:16:40 <Flygon> And threatened to shut down the entire network unless there was a loco on each end 02:16:59 <Flygon> Or, at least, not drive that specific train :p 02:17:19 <Flygon> Mind: We have a LOT of level crossings here 02:24:14 <drac_boy> Flygon about that Class Y picture I found before... 02:24:23 <drac_boy> there was something a little alike to that in canada for a few years 02:25:11 <drac_boy> narrow gauge diesel locomotive .. even although it had been built specifically for that it still got the nickname "mutant geep" because it did resemble a standard GP with wide overhangs over its track :) 02:25:36 <Flygon> Heh... 02:25:40 <Flygon> That wouldn't surprise me 02:25:57 <Flygon> The push-pull locomotives in the pic I just show, are native 1600mm ones... 02:26:03 <Flygon> But have been built on 1067mm too 02:26:12 <drac_boy> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cn931.jpg thats one version of it 02:26:17 <Flygon> Luckily, loading gauge was the sam 02:26:27 <drac_boy> and yes the axles do look like they are "tucked under" 02:26:49 <Flygon> Can barely see the wheels O_O 02:27:02 <drac_boy> yeah the running boards extended out wider :) 02:28:20 <drac_boy> flygon and its not just that one ... you know of the PCC trams? 02:28:42 <Flygon> Yes 02:28:46 <Flygon> We tested a PCC design here 02:28:55 <Flygon> It wasn't successful. Only one cab :( 02:29:29 <drac_boy> in at least one usa city .. they were ordered to standard or wide body .... on 3'6 trucks .. giving it a strange "hovering" effect because unless you shine a low light directly at it you can not even see anything in the dark black wheel wells :) 02:29:35 <drac_boy> let me see if I can find that one 02:29:47 <Flygon> O_O 02:31:01 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 02:31:31 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 02:31:32 <drac_boy> this is another one that lost the "wheel well" effect and had straight flat skirts instead .. but still .. you bloody can not see anything indeed http://www.sudswineandspirits.com/images/CTAGreenHornet2.jpg 02:31:50 <drac_boy> most other ppc trams had it visible as it was only 1-2 inches far from the skirt due to standard gauge tracks 02:32:06 <drac_boy> but these green ones.... normal body + narrow gauge = eh 02:32:16 <Flygon> It really does hover O_o 02:32:46 <drac_boy> flygon also as you noticed..they were ordered with the extra-long body too...hence the middle doors 02:33:20 <drac_boy> normally its only two doors on the standard length ones after all 02:33:20 * Flygon nod 02:33:59 <Flygon> I don't think Melbourne ever got unarticulated 3 door trams 02:34:22 *** roadt__ [~roadt@60.168.91.153] has joined #openttd 02:34:39 <drac_boy> flygon btw aside to the "green hornet" for their unusual narrow gauge take ... there were also a few PCC that were actually ordered with MU controls .. even if not all of them actually got used in pairs 02:34:56 <drac_boy> I assume they were 2-crew worked by then .. one driver and one ticket-only conductor 02:35:16 <drac_boy> (after all someone had to still staff the second one) 02:35:47 <Flygon> Melbourne never had MU trams 02:36:08 <Flygon> Adelaide does, however 02:36:47 <Flygon> Though, trams in Melbourne can tow... but it's not true MU, obviously 02:37:41 <Flygon> http://www.lightrailnow.org/images02/ade-lrt-Grand-Opening-Flexity-Hclass-20071014x25_Pascal-Labhart.jpg Tram on right is in EMU 02:40:05 <Flygon> The Gleneng MU trams can operate in MU in Melbourne, however 02:46:56 <drac_boy> so flygon what are you doing now anyway? :) 02:47:01 <Flygon> Games :p 02:51:54 <drac_boy> heh which one? 02:52:11 <Flygon> Ragnarok Online x.x 02:52:26 <Flygon> A private server 02:52:36 <drac_boy> oh :p 02:52:51 <drac_boy> me I'm a bit busy trying to figure out some suggestive locomotive specs while talking on irc :) 02:53:02 <Flygon> Suggestive? 02:53:07 <drac_boy> especially trying to balance the few 40-50kph ones 02:53:15 <drac_boy> well yeah :) 02:53:17 <Flygon> Ah 02:53:32 <drac_boy> I'm still wondering if 50kph should be the minimum or 40 is ok 02:53:34 <drac_boy> hard to say 02:53:42 <Flygon> Depends on the freight 02:53:56 <Flygon> Le Belge is nearly useless, though 02:54:34 <Flygon> Though, Australia's first locos are British imports... 02:54:35 <drac_boy> this is 1920 and upward mind you :) 02:54:40 <Flygon> Ah 02:55:59 <Flygon> OpenTTD needs a more variatous Victorian era game 02:57:54 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A18E36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 03:04:45 <drac_boy> btw I finally thought of what I wanted to do with the third track type..but its hmm a bit of surprise so I'll wait for the public version of tracking table first :P 03:05:12 * Flygon nod 03:05:19 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A19A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:05:23 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye !] 03:05:30 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 03:05:49 <drac_boy> not sure if theres anyone here for a newgrf question again but hmm anyway.... 03:07:08 <drac_boy> can you only have a fixed or variable train consist or is a mix of both somewhat plausible? say you buy what is a 4-car MU set but it still allows you to add more individual coaches to make it longer than 4 if needed ... you just can't remove it to <4 03:09:16 <Flygon> On a related question 03:09:22 <Flygon> Can you have two motor cars in an EMU 03:09:26 <Flygon> But rest trailers? 03:09:43 <Flygon> And specify if trailers are motored or not? 03:10:01 <Flygon> Comeng/Hitachi trains are... interesting :p 03:11:19 <drac_boy> actually someone mentioned it before..use the wagon callback I think? 03:11:36 <drac_boy> or was it a loco callback for wagons? either way it should be under action0 or callbacks I think 03:13:59 <drac_boy> hmmm whats another word to use for 'passengers' .. something shorter maybe :s 03:18:19 <drac_boy> nevermind...might be better tomorrow..going to sleep now -_- 03:18:22 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 03:26:43 *** mkv` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 03:29:52 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18E36.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:16 *** Markavian` 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*** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:52:25 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 08:57:42 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d154-20-135-189.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:07 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d154-20-135-189.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 09:05:54 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-40-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:05:55 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:00 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:30:10 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-156-138.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 09:31:20 <dihedral> hi 09:50:54 <Flygon> hi 10:10:09 *** EyeMWing [~Wing@c-68-33-226-154.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 10:36:32 *** Pensacola [~quassel@phys9212.phys.tue.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:55 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 11:01:33 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18E36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:30:02 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 11:30:06 <drac_boy> hi 11:39:38 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 11:51:34 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 11:54:39 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d154-20-135-189.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:56:55 *** Bad_Brett [~bad@78-69-118-27-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 11:57:35 <drac_boy> hi Bad_Brett :) 11:57:47 <Bad_Brett> hi drac_boy! :D 11:59:20 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:59:45 <Bad_Brett> what are you up to? 12:00:53 <drac_boy> thinking about locomotives a bit, you? 12:01:27 <Bad_Brett> drawing bridges! 12:02:54 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 12:04:43 <drac_boy> heh 12:06:43 * drac_boy could like some bridges but sees thats on the bottom of the todo list tho :p 12:08:25 <Bad_Brett> what project are you working on again? 12:11:30 <drac_boy> more or less a 'generic country' grf set? :-> 12:13:10 <Bad_Brett> cool, do you have a developement thread at the forums? 12:15:23 <drac_boy> no...may have a small website up when the table's ready for public tho 12:18:49 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Quit: reboot] 12:21:31 <Bad_Brett> alright 12:22:08 <Bad_Brett> i seldom stick to the toto list... it's so boring :) 12:22:21 <Bad_Brett> toto list? that doesn't sound good... 12:23:25 <peter1138> could be worse, could be the tutu list 12:24:32 <Bad_Brett> scary 12:25:28 <drac_boy> heh heh 12:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> *must*get*picture*out*of*head* 12:33:02 <InducTrackerOTTD> Hmm, I should see to making an improved world map heightmap, aswell as one for africa, and at least two polar projection square world height maps 12:34:11 <Eddi|zuHause> don't use one of the projections that produce a rectangle standing on its edge. use one that fits better in a rectangle standing on the corner 12:35:35 <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't follow 12:37:05 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd 12:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> most projections out there try to map the world onto a sheet of paper 12:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that necessarily means that the northern and southern regions are stretched out 12:38:02 <InducTrackerOTTD> yes, I know about map distortions 12:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you have an OTTD world, the map stands on a corner, so you need to draw the northern and southern regions together 12:38:37 <InducTrackerOTTD> "stands on a corner" I have no idea what yo mean 12:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause> /\ 12:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> \/ 12:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> vs. 12:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ___ 12:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> |_| 12:39:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't see how it matters, in which direciton the grid is rotated 12:39:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the OTTD map is narrow at the top and bottom, the "sheet of paper" is not 12:39:59 <Flygon> OpenTTD could really use a map system where you can go left and right 12:40:07 <Flygon> Like in Civilization/SMACX 12:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have completely different goals of a projection 12:40:13 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: you can rotate a world map you know 12:40:31 <InducTrackerOTTD> I do not have different goals, from projecting the sphere to a flat plane 12:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: but then north is not north anymore 12:40:39 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: so what? 12:40:57 <InducTrackerOTTD> I can put north to bottom+right if I wish, you know =) 12:41:08 <InducTrackerOTTD> also, north is north whichever way you rotate a map 12:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: it's a problem a lot of "heightmaps" have, because they stupidly and senselessly rotate the map by 45° (to make it easier) 12:41:29 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: I don't see any "stupidity" or "lack of sense" in such a practice 12:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i do. 12:41:46 <InducTrackerOTTD> Well, you apply that to your own heightmap designs, will ya? =) 12:41:49 <Flygon> Depends on the hightmap 12:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i apply that to all my heightmaps :) 12:42:20 <InducTrackerOTTD> PS: you might be into pseudocylindrical projections if you go experimenting with rhomboid maps 12:44:28 <Flygon> I tried rotating my own heightmap by 45 degrees, but got unwanted distortions 12:45:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: altho I will have to agree that with polar-centered azimuthal equidistant projection ... the orientation, in one sense becomes agnostic to our dispute =D 12:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: civ-y maps have their own problems 12:49:48 <Flygon> Indeed 12:49:52 <InducTrackerOTTD> I love me some hex based civ maps 12:49:59 <Flygon> Such as that they can't go all directions... 12:50:07 <Flygon> Only Up-Down or Left-Right 12:50:24 <Flygon> Unless you have a literal flat earth :p 12:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: civ4 can go toroidal as well (at least in the space mod) 12:50:38 <Flygon> I've only played CivII and SMACX 12:50:46 <Flygon> Incidentally 12:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a SMAC mod for Civ4 :) 12:51:02 <Flygon> Reverse engineering the SMACX heightmap method would be cool 12:51:26 <Flygon> Use OpenTTD heightmaps in SMACX :D 12:52:34 <Flygon> Civ4 lacks an altitude system 12:52:46 <Flygon> But the issue is... SMACX heightmaps are more complex than OpenTTD 12:52:51 <Flygon> Due to having oceanic depth 12:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the SMAC mod uses a simplified height mechanism (basically only 2 height levels above sea) 12:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, 3 12:54:18 <Flygon> Ah 12:54:28 <Flygon> SMACX had any altitude from -3500 to 3500 :p 12:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> low, medium and high 12:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> where you can't go from low to high with normal units 12:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (only helicopters and formers) 12:59:53 <drac_boy> theres no way to tell if vehiclepool is on or off from grf or is there? 13:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: checked the global patch flags? 13:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> | ((_settings_game.vehicle.dynamic_engines ? 1 : 0) << 0x18) // dynamic engines 13:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: PS: the "vehlicle pool" is always on 13:07:34 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause so you mean ottd doesn't care if two incompactibe classes clashes together or does it at least disable one of two grf when that happens? 13:07:47 <drac_boy> just wondering re that 13:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: a) you have a complete misunderstanding what the "vehicle pool" is, and b) openttd separates the two engines if "dynamic engines" [aka "allow multiple vehicle sets"] is set, otherwise one just overwrites the other 13:12:21 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 13:12:42 <drac_boy> oh hm overwrite sounds a bit better...sorry for asking 13:12:43 <drac_boy> thanks :P 13:21:47 <drac_boy> going for a bit now..have too much to type on my own now anyway :p 13:21:50 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 13:22:37 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:29:05 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:37:57 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:51:14 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18E36.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:59 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:53:37 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 14:18:39 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:34 <Belugas> hello 14:32:25 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 14:34:12 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.96.127.126] has joined #openttd 14:37:43 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 14:52:38 <planetmaker> salut Belugas 14:53:05 <Belugas> sir maker :) glad to salute you back! 14:53:30 <Belugas> heading for a party of Doom Day friday? 14:54:46 <planetmaker> :-) I haven't yet planned for that, admittedly :-) 15:10:47 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> where does one get DOOM from nowadays? 15:16:23 <peter1138> steam 15:16:53 <Bad_Brett> oh no 15:16:54 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: FOUR MORE DAYS AND WE ARE ALL DOOMED! THE END IS NIGH! 15:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> my steam doesn't work :/ 15:17:12 <Bad_Brett> steam is terrible 15:17:34 <Bad_Brett> it makes me SO MAD 15:17:37 <Bad_Brett> those bastards 15:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that bad when it works... 15:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but it suddenly stopped logging in 15:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> some kind of networking problem 15:19:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't isolate it 15:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody else has that problem :/ 15:21:55 <Bad_Brett> i don't like the idea that they can shut down my account, with all my games, without a warning 15:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that is indeed a problem of the "cloud" times 15:23:27 <Bad_Brett> yep... you don't really buy games from steam, you rent them... i think it's a dirty business 15:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you _can_ use steam in offline mode... 15:35:10 <Pinkbeas1> Or, more to the point, shut it down because they assert the right to vary the T&Cs as they please and want to bring in a change to your disadvantage. 15:35:32 *** Pinkbeas1 is now known as Pinkbeast 15:35:54 <Pinkbeast> ... which is flagrantly unenforcable under EU law, but what are you going to do, sue them? 15:36:11 <Pinkbeast> And which has happened already with the changes to class action law in the US. 15:36:41 <Pinkbeast> I honestly trusted Valve to have got digital distribution right. Apparently, I'm a mug. I don't want to live in a world where RMS is always right in the end, but I do. 15:41:12 <Bad_Brett> yeah... 15:49:20 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176109482.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd 15:49:24 <drac_boy> hi 15:55:35 <Bad_Brett> hi drac_boy! :D 15:57:33 <drac_boy> how're you? 15:58:21 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:13:57 <Bad_Brett> great, thanks for asking! 16:14:09 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-105-130.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:14:12 <Bad_Brett> let me have your opinion on something 16:14:46 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.48.99] has joined #openttd 16:15:51 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.79.150] has joined #openttd 16:16:54 <Bad_Brett> i made a bold move and decided to try to add shadows to my bridges, which is kind of impossible... 16:17:15 <Bad_Brett> so the question is: do you think it looks weird? 16:17:22 <Bad_Brett> http://badbrett.se/goldrush/bridge.jpg 16:19:25 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 16:20:25 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:20:59 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0097ae.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:23:17 <LordAro> a bitdark perhaps 16:23:41 <LordAro> and probably completely impossible to do well for all situations 16:23:55 <LordAro> but, like all other things you do, looks awesome :) 16:30:26 <Bad_Brett> thanks! 16:30:44 <Bad_Brett> yeah i know... the problem is that this requires some overlapping 16:31:03 <Bad_Brett> which means that the shadows will be darker on higher bridges 16:31:23 <peter1138> that does look fucking awesome 16:31:33 <peter1138> if only our bridge heights weren't so wacky :-( 16:33:28 <Bad_Brett> thank you 16:34:49 <Bad_Brett> but it's quite fun to try to get around the limitations 16:46:59 <drac_boy> I always did wonder about "max bridge height limit" but it seem impossible to possibly code something like that in :/ 16:47:08 <drac_boy> at least max bridge length works for whats needed of it 16:49:04 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:49:29 <drac_boy> nothing like making a bridge be only buildable one single height level high I guess :-> 16:49:40 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:49:59 *** Sturmi [~sturmi@p4FEDCA9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:52:16 *** LordAro is now known as Guest1749 16:52:18 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-244-15.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:52:19 <Bad_Brett> my feeling is that very few players build high bridges 16:52:38 <LordAro> that would probably be true 16:52:48 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett well there are certain bridge sprites that shouldn't be built so high up .. they look weird with skinny tall piers you know? 16:53:08 <peter1138> i was refering to bridges being 8 pixels higher than the ground, and vehicles being 12-14 pixels tall (at standard zoom) 16:53:30 <Bad_Brett> ah alright i see 16:53:32 <drac_boy> did anyone actually build a bricks viaduct that was more than 2km high up up there? I doubt the bricks themself were made for that were they? 16:54:06 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:54:11 <peter1138> a 2km high viaduct? no, i don't think such a thing exists ;p 16:54:52 <Bad_Brett> 2km? hahhaha 16:54:57 <Bad_Brett> that would be insane 16:55:29 <drac_boy> well Bad_Brett thats what it looks like in arctic maps tbh 16:55:36 <drac_boy> even if its scale isn't quite perfect 16:55:48 <Bad_Brett> i see your point 16:56:09 <drac_boy> yeah 16:56:51 <peter1138> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Creissels_et_Viaduct_de_Millau.jpg 16:56:56 <peter1138> that is a pretty impressive viaduct though 16:56:57 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett and then theres a lot of bridges that would be perfect if they were limited to only 1 tiles height ... especially the ones used by real railroads to cross wet lands a few feet high up 16:57:04 <peter1138> (aka bridge) 16:57:05 *** Guest1749 [~LordAro@host81-155-105-130.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:57:33 <peter1138> the road deck is 270 metres above the base of the valley 16:57:50 <Bad_Brett> hopefully bridges will get implemented in nml in the future 16:58:00 <drac_boy> this is only a model but same idea tho http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Dutchman/2011111572719_LowBridge2.jpg 16:58:04 <Bad_Brett> heh, i just googled that one as well :) 16:58:17 <drac_boy> its only one horizontal beam .. and some cheap vertical woods ... not very stable but for a low height it didn't matter 16:58:22 <peter1138> that's basically what the wood bridge is for, heh 16:58:47 <drac_boy> peter1138 then where's one rated for 100kph yet? :) 16:59:07 <peter1138> crazy, that thing could snap any time ;p 16:59:50 <drac_boy> well they were common across usa .. even with modern Dash-CW units running across them 16:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: unpassable bridges like this might be possible as "objects with statemachine" 16:59:55 <Bad_Brett> that one kinda looks like my bridge 17:00:13 <drac_boy> and believe it or not but a Dash-CW is kinda heavy n fast ;) 17:00:47 <drac_boy> its only standard wood framed trestles that are often removed for metal version because they're too old and/or light 17:00:58 <drac_boy> but the low-marsh bridges often stay for a very long time 17:02:00 <drac_boy> its not exactly 'low' but this is a similar version out of concrete instead http://www.cement.org/newsroom/releaseimages/fifthstreet300.jpg 17:02:12 <drac_boy> could work for higher heights too tho..just make the piers thicker 17:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i'm fairly sure the more-heightlevels-patch has a maximum bridge height 17:03:03 <peter1138> hmm, best to avoid the london tube on 13th jan 17:03:10 <peter1138> they're gonna run a steam train on it 17:03:12 <drac_boy> mm sounds good. I was just throwing comments around tho. I don't really understand in-game bridges that much anyway 17:03:30 <Bad_Brett> uh-oh 17:03:36 <drac_boy> what do any of you think about concrete bridges btw? 17:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> concrete in opposition to abstract? 17:04:23 <drac_boy> as in compared to steel I guess 17:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> or as in made of cement mixture 17:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's there to think about? 17:05:10 <peter1138> it better be reinforced 17:05:23 <Bad_Brett> yeah 17:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the german word is "Spannbeton" 17:05:40 <drac_boy> meh .. anyway for me I like them both small and large providing the top is insulated in some way (ballast or rubber layer on top etc) re vibratation reduction 17:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea how to translate that 17:05:59 <drac_boy> doesn't have rust issue unlike steel .. although cheap sand or water can be an issue 17:06:28 <drac_boy> one of the major bridge built to replace a twisty steep rail route in usa ... is still there in original condition more than 50 years later 17:06:31 <Bad_Brett> this would be a cool disaster in OpenTTD: 17:06:33 <Bad_Brett> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw 17:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> concrete has the problem of lower lifetime 17:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg 17:07:17 <drac_boy> np 17:07:44 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett I doubt they really could do it anymore nowaday especially with regulations and unions red tapes all over the place but .... 17:08:49 <drac_boy> used to be if a major link bridge fell either due to accident or really bad weather ... the military could help .. and pretty much put a "temporary" steel bridge in in only a few weeks or less. sometimes in some case it was sturdy enough to be left there for permament instead 17:09:04 <drac_boy> 1920-1950's is where I recall reading a lot of stories about these 17:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: bridge washouts was certainly one of the most annoying parts of railroad tycoon 17:09:28 <Bad_Brett> cool 17:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (next to the station limit) 17:09:41 <Bad_Brett> noo 17:09:44 <drac_boy> in one case the route was through a mountain that had lot of snowslide problems ... after rescuing the derailed train from the valley ... the military put a new bridge up in only 9 days against all the snow swalls 17:09:47 <Bad_Brett> you just have to build stone bridges 17:09:53 <Bad_Brett> problem solved :) 17:10:03 <drac_boy> I mean .. think about it .. a remote location high up in mountain .. and NINE DAYS for a full bridge?! 17:10:08 <drac_boy> they sure could work fast 17:10:20 <Bad_Brett> nine days? sounds insane 17:10:30 <drac_boy> aye...the old days sure were different eh? 17:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, during the last phase of WWII, the nazis destroyed pretty much every bridge on their retreat 17:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so bridge building skills would surely come in handy for the allied army 17:12:55 <drac_boy> theres that too yeah 17:13:04 <drac_boy> also on both sides they sometimes had to do regauging too 17:13:50 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 17:22:13 <drac_boy> anyway need to figure out lunch as usual -_- 17:22:14 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176109482.dsl.bell.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 17:22:54 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:29:43 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:32:36 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:33:35 <Terkhen> hello 17:33:47 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 17:38:31 <LordAro> hey Terkhen 17:57:30 *** roadt__ [~roadt@60.168.91.153] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:57:31 <Bad_Brett> hi Terkhen! 17:57:54 <LordAro> bit late :P 17:58:04 <Bad_Brett> dammit :) 18:00:02 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:00:05 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 18:04:13 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:25 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:15:50 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:55 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:21:15 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:25:34 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:42 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fde45.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:39:40 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 18:41:57 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host115-94-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:42:34 *** TheMask96- [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:42:46 <Wolf01> hello :D 18:45:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24824 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-12-17 18:45:40 UTC) 18:45:51 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:52 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv 18:45:53 <DorpsGek> korean - 83 changes by telk5093 18:45:54 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen 18:47:21 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:52:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:49:c901:40a5:8e4d] has joined #openttd 18:53:36 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 18:56:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:49:c901:40a5:8e4d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:08 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d821336.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:57:38 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:58:07 <andythenorth> hi 19:00:28 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 19:00:34 <Terkhen> how are things going? :) 19:00:41 <andythenorth> ho 19:00:49 <andythenorth> let's say good 19:01:10 <andythenorth> I could use more time :P 19:01:14 <andythenorth> who couldn't? 19:01:22 <andythenorth> apart from students, who have an abundance of the stuff 19:01:33 <Terkhen> yes :( 19:01:41 <andythenorth> even my kids want more time to play 19:01:47 <Terkhen> since I'm not a student anymore, my time is quite scarce 19:01:47 <andythenorth> bath time comes far too early for them 19:02:46 <Terkhen> lately I only have time for a single task each evening before dinner :P 19:02:55 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 19:03:02 <andythenorth> dinner is the task :P 19:03:14 <andythenorth> except when my wife kindly makes it (most days) :P 19:03:59 <Terkhen> if I cooked real food I would have even less time :P 19:05:50 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 19:29:40 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:32:28 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:24 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:34:24 *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:47:07 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:49:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:57:47 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 19:57:50 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 20:00:52 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:03:34 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:42 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:07:07 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:54 <andythenorth> so 20:22:00 <andythenorth> this is a 4,000hp locomotive 20:22:01 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=417983&nseq=76 20:22:17 <andythenorth> this appears to be common in former soviet union 20:22:35 <andythenorth> or some guys really like taking pictures of single coach trains with 4,000hp locomotives 20:22:57 <Alberth> it doesn't look that way :) 20:25:06 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=412036&nseq=8 20:25:46 <Alberth> not exciting at all :) 20:26:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Are they a little short on electrification? 20:26:47 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=372478&nseq=12 20:27:21 <andythenorth> they apparently are short on 1,000hp railcars :P 20:27:32 <FLHerne> No-one's built any diesels much more powerful than a Deltic here, because we have 5000hp electrics :-) 20:27:43 <FLHerne> Although your second one is an electric :P 20:28:20 * FLHerne appears to have entirely missed the point on the first attempt :P 20:28:33 <FLHerne> Nice single-car loco-hauled trains :-) 20:29:19 <andythenorth> the new UK ugly things are 3,690hp 20:29:23 <andythenorth> :P 20:32:13 <FLHerne> Eurolight whatsits? 20:32:17 <FLHerne> Or the 70s? 20:32:32 <andythenorth> yeah 20:32:56 <FLHerne> Both are hideous, just a choice between 'nasty smoothed boxy lumps' or 'weirdly blobby' :P 20:34:24 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:40:10 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:43:05 <Wolf01> 'night 20:43:10 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:48:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:53:28 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 20:57:10 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176109482.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd 20:57:13 <drac_boy> hi 20:57:30 <Alberth> hi 21:02:57 <LordAro> heyo 21:05:01 <drac_boy> how doing? 21:08:10 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:10:54 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:11:12 <InducTrackerOTTD> Them soviet stile locos sure look familiar there, andythenorth =) 21:11:36 <InducTrackerOTTD> Not the single coach chaining, but the loco 21:12:58 <InducTrackerOTTD> Also, shortage of electrification is present, FLHerne =( 21:15:08 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: Thought so :P 21:15:48 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm pretty sure those carriages are trailing there for ferry run crew comfort/safety or whatever 21:15:57 <FLHerne> Is that rumour that many Soviet diesels are quite direct descendants of 'Kestrel' true? 21:16:01 <InducTrackerOTTD> or is that called transit 21:16:04 <Alberth> drac_boy: found a new bug in Mercurial :p 21:16:15 <drac_boy> alberth whats that? 21:16:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> I have no idea what a Kestrel is, also, I'm not educated in locomotive geneaolgy 21:16:41 <InducTrackerOTTD> Mercurial still > than Git, right? 21:17:33 <Alberth> http://hgbook.red-bean.com/read/how-did-we-get-here.html 21:17:42 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: It's this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_HS4000 21:18:16 <FLHerne> Built as a state-of-the-art demonstrator loco for BR, then sold to the USSR in 1971 for some reason :P 21:18:58 <Alberth> drac_boy: basically, it keeps track of the changes that you make in your files (at the moment you want). You can later look at them, search them, give them to others, etc 21:19:32 <Alberth> very useful for writing patches of a certain transport simulation game :p 21:19:44 <FLHerne> Some people insist that some/many Soviet loco designs are derived from it in some way ;-) 21:21:00 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: I do know a quite different tipe of propulsion engine by the name of Kestrel tho =D 21:21:06 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d154-20-135-189.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:21:18 * drac_boy rather go with git thank you 21:21:35 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kestrel_%28rocket_engine%29 21:22:02 <drac_boy> flherne mm btw when I was talking with someone (brett or flygon..I forgot) the mention of BR APT came up ... I thought I recall that almost all problems with it were solved but they sold the technology to another country instead? 21:22:23 *** Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces] 21:22:31 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Indeed :-/ 21:22:35 <FLHerne> Politicians... 21:22:53 <drac_boy> FLHerne now now...don't ask about politicians and rails in north america....or you'll get badly torched ;) 21:23:50 <FLHerne> Same happened to TSR-2, and the early peroxide rockets, and far too many other things :-( 21:24:20 <drac_boy> VIA - turbotrain was a bit hard at first but slowly became very reliable ... but gov told them to look elsewhere and they got the troublesome LRC instead (its tilting was eventually removed) ... 21:24:43 <drac_boy> and don't ask about amtrak's several "quits" on highspeed trains till they finally got these overpriced underused (at the time) Acela locomotives 21:25:14 <drac_boy> I still wonder about the few days an ICE-1 train actually ran in northeast usa :p 21:26:15 <FLHerne> We still don't have domestic HSR here :-( 21:27:23 <FLHerne> We do have a lot more >100mph running than in the US, IIRC, but nothing >125mph except the Eurostars... 21:27:52 <FLHerne> Annoyingly, there are three train fleets designed for 140mph but not permitted to run that fast 21:28:11 <FLHerne> And of course APT was built for 155mph in the 80s :-( 21:29:51 <drac_boy> heh 21:29:55 * Rubidium wonders why every country reinvents the high speed train with all its initial faults 21:30:38 <Rubidium> e.g. the V250 which, after four years of testing, manages to arrive at the destination in a whopping 3 out of 4 times 21:35:25 <andythenorth> Rubidium: these ones just kind of work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_125 21:35:29 <andythenorth> the brakes smell funny 21:35:37 <InducTrackerOTTD> I wonder how long until turbine-electric hybrid locos replace diesle-electrics =D 21:35:40 <andythenorth> and they arsed about with APT for years before HST 21:35:56 <andythenorth> UK runs some of the fastest point-point passenger trains in the world 21:36:40 <Rubidium> they should just have bought a few of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_R%C3%A9seau <- those in 38000 series 21:37:04 <andythenorth> we don't have the track for them :P 21:37:16 <Rubidium> mostly because they are known to run on the track where the V250 runs 21:37:19 <andythenorth> we run insanely fast on existing lines, mostly built around 1840-1850 :P 21:37:53 <andythenorth> also this man is worth reading about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Grange 21:37:58 <Rubidium> (since those Thalyses are already running there) 21:38:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I seem to remember, somewhere, that in the UK the fastest (timetabled) trains ran on steam 21:38:53 <andythenorth> maybe once upon a time :P 21:39:03 <Rubidium> maybe now the Eurostar beats them, but that might not be quite true 21:39:10 <Rubidium> since they are *slow* in the tunnel 21:41:32 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:49:51 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 21:54:47 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18E36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:57:29 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-244-15.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:00:06 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-171-143.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 22:00:25 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 22:02:01 <andythenorth> bye 22:02:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:15:54 <drac_boy> that reminds me, are turbines only good for nonstop express trains or probably theres other uses too? 22:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> turbines are probably rather one of the total oddities 22:19:55 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:20:20 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you have an engine that produces 8000hp, and needs 6000hp of it to keep running, the other 2000hp are useful for traction etc. 22:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> only few of these entered service throughout europe 22:22:24 <drac_boy> mm 22:23:00 <drac_boy> I know there were a few turbine trainsets too .. can't imagine how having a turbine located several inches underneath the seats must had been like tho? 22:23:11 <drac_boy> french one for example as I recall ^ 22:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g some of the german TEE trains (Trans Europ Express) were refitted with turbines, to get more power 22:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and some diesel engines as well, but those had technical troubles so they stopped using the turbine 22:24:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and ran only with the remaining conventional engine 22:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. with half power than originally) 22:24:49 <drac_boy> mm 22:24:52 <Kjetil> I'm still waiting for the Umbrella corp. nuclear powered train 22:25:09 <drac_boy> reminds me of one site about early uk locomotives for industrial lines... 22:25:55 <drac_boy> apparently the petrol/diesel engines they used were sometimes weak on power that at least one company sold a boiler+diesel locomotive that used steam to get moving then diesel to keep it going .. but it did not quite work so well tho 22:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a german TEE train: http://bahn.startbilder.de/1024/601-als-tee-helvetica-parade-96620.jpg 22:26:21 <drac_boy> at least a few more years later the engines were strong enogh that the varying 0-4-0T's finally looked like they would be 'old' for good 22:28:56 <drac_boy> Kjetil that would have a lot of problem in real life .. but in-game .. why not? ;) 22:30:00 <Kjetil> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=35334 - heh :P 22:30:50 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause: hence why they are a perfect match for electric-hybrid, rather than e-direct drive 22:31:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hÀ? 22:31:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> only turning them over for max power, for however long charging the storage takes 22:31:31 <InducTrackerOTTD> turbines 22:31:35 <drac_boy> electric should be straight electric silly 22:31:57 <InducTrackerOTTD> drac_boy: I'm not talking about electric electric, but a transmission technology for IC locos 22:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: german engines tend to be diesel-hydraulic 22:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> not diesel-electric 22:32:29 <InducTrackerOTTD> yeah well, diesels are known for having a wider tolerable working speed range 22:32:53 <InducTrackerOTTD> hybrid, my emphasis was on hybrid, obviously 22:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ... which is why the fastest trains were electric ones? 22:33:20 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm not even talking about speed here 22:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: you are not making any sense 22:33:41 <InducTrackerOTTD> freighters seem to be the most frequent applications for non-grid powered locos 22:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> please start your thought from the beginning 22:34:24 <InducTrackerOTTD> There's no beginning to something endless =) 22:34:40 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 22:36:38 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm saying, with the way tech is developing, I'm hoping it's soon that turbines start giving some competition to diesel locos again 22:36:52 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fde45.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's a dead technology 22:37:59 <drac_boy> yeah .. turbines were only good for long non-stop trains .. which is exactly where HS electrficiation already leaves us at anyway 22:38:51 <drac_boy> you have to admit UP for running a few different types for as long as they did till Bunker C finally wasn't a cheap "waste" from refineries 22:39:35 <drac_boy> hm by HS I meant High Speed ... tgv, ice, take your name 22:40:15 <michi_cc> Indeed. All the modern advancements of turbine efficiency are mostly only usable for constant (high) power output. Trains don't need constant high power. They need a big peak to accelerate and then almost idle to hold speed. 22:40:23 <InducTrackerOTTD> That's only ture because historical turbine locos were forced to power the loco on turbine power continuously, with electric hybrid transmission technology applied to locos that is no longer the case. turbine only runs at max efficiency to generate electricity when the charge is low enough, not directly propelling the train 22:41:20 <drac_boy> michi_cc interestingly enough thats why GM has been pushing diesel/battery-drive buses to certain locations ... after all for example the 200hp engine is always on to provide cruising speed and climate loads while the battery more or less deals with accerlations 22:41:23 <InducTrackerOTTD> energy storage technologies that would've enabled duty cycling a turbine like that didn't exist 22:41:39 <drac_boy> better than a 420hp engine thats working full time at accerlation but then has little use when already moving basically 22:41:58 <InducTrackerOTTD> which is where electric drive comes to help out 22:42:22 <InducTrackerOTTD> turbine doesn't even need to deliver the peak power, the storage pack and drive motors do 22:43:21 <michi_cc> InducTrackerOTTD: Duty cycling a turbine is the easiest way to prematurely break it. High fuel efficiency means high burning temperature. Alternating between high temperatures and low temperatures for idle will break every material very fast. 22:44:05 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: you forget that pre-heating technologies in automotive products are proving themselves right now 22:44:09 <drac_boy> michi_cc indeed ... I can't imagine even modern steel being able to deal with going between 100C and 500C many times a day without getting brittle or something 22:44:43 <InducTrackerOTTD> designing a turbine with external heating in mind should be a trivial matter, compared to designing a wide power range turbine 22:44:43 <michi_cc> And a turbine/battery hybrid doesn't make economic sense. For a few hp's diesel engines will simply be a lot cheaper. 22:45:02 <InducTrackerOTTD> except that's not true, diesels are only cheaper due to scale of manufacturing 22:45:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> inherently turbines are simpler mechanically, and should be cheaper and more reliable 22:46:39 <InducTrackerOTTD> Certanly, as you mentioned, high temperatures bring their own problems to material's technology. Still, I'd place my bet on that, rather than the hundreds or thousand sof moving/reciprocating parts 22:48:17 <michi_cc> drac_boy: We're not talking about 500°C, modern engines have flame temperatures in excess of 2200°C at full load. Not exactly a good target for pre-heating. 22:49:10 <InducTrackerOTTD> Yeah well, I'm sure the flame-heads will think of something, induction heating or what have you =) 22:49:34 <drac_boy> michi_cc mm yeah I was just using a random number to remark about wide temperature changes 22:50:03 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm pretty hopeful about a few years of automotive experiments in marketing the same will re-ignite interest in locomotive research into that. I was recently reminded that the former is still only just an idea on paper =\ 22:50:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> So there goes my turbine exhaust pipe dream for now =D 22:50:42 <michi_cc> InducTrackerOTTD: Uselessly heating something to 2200°C is somewhat incompatible with energy efficient. Better skip the turbine and use the energy directly for propulsion. 22:51:47 <InducTrackerOTTD> How do you figure really? AFAIK turbines would use recuperators, so within the best of our ability exhaust heat is recaptured into the inputs again 22:51:54 <Sturmi> preheating to 2k °C quite incompatible to steel too ;) 22:52:13 <InducTrackerOTTD> high temp turbines ain't your garden variety steel anyway 22:52:16 <InducTrackerOTTD> hot zone stuff 22:52:34 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: it's also not just heat for heat's sake, it's all for expanding gas =) 22:54:05 <FLHerne> @ports 22:54:05 <DorpsGek> FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound) 22:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: i think you're missing the point. the problem was keeping the heat while the turbine is idle, to prevent excessive wear on the material 22:56:45 <drac_boy> that does remind me michi_cc do you think diesel is the 'best' fuel for a small 1.4L 4-inline engine? something like say a light industrial railway locomotive or mm yeah 22:57:32 <InducTrackerOTTD> Grah, linux headaches 22:58:21 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: What sort? 22:58:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> Eddi|zuHause, michi_cc: also, bearings are doubtfully at combustion chamber temperatures, and Eddi, as I was arguing with michi, in the case we're viewing, there's no need to maintain idling 22:58:34 * FLHerne has been having them today too :-( 22:58:53 <InducTrackerOTTD> dunno, over-extended firefox or flash(unlikely) fudged up my window manager, FLHerne 22:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: kwin --replace 22:59:11 <InducTrackerOTTD> terminating FF in tty did the trick 22:59:40 <michi_cc> Diesel has the most energy per volume among the easily usable fuels, so diesel engines will generally use less fuel. It's definitely not the best for pollution though. 22:59:45 <InducTrackerOTTD> But now my handicapped WM is steering me to reboot 23:00:04 <InducTrackerOTTD> burning diesel fuel in a turbine would improve on that =P 23:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it would produce more pollution for sure ;) 23:00:45 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: Use a less handicapped WM :P 23:00:48 <drac_boy> michi_cc NOx or something else was it? 23:00:58 <drac_boy> I think I was suppose to remember but I'm not sure 23:01:03 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: it's only handicapped after it gets shelled D= 23:01:16 <FLHerne> Restart the WM, then? 23:01:19 <InducTrackerOTTD> It would produce less pollution for certain ;) 23:01:32 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: what's the point, my xorg dependent apps are hooked on it 23:01:45 <michi_cc> Big oil turbines need to employ things like water injection to manage somewhat sane pollution levels. 23:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: since when do xorg apps "depend" on a window manager? 23:02:17 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: Nope, restarting the WM shouldn't be a problem 23:02:26 <InducTrackerOTTD> Hmm, got some educational reading on that topic, that you can recall, michi_cc? 23:02:55 <FLHerne> If doing stuff to the WM affects an app, that app is being very unusual :-/ 23:03:09 <michi_cc> drac_boy: Everything really. The longer the hydrocarbon molecules, the harder it is to get a clean reaction. It's all downhill starting from methane. 23:03:19 <InducTrackerOTTD> FLHerne: I've argued that in my distro's troll cave enough already, it takes unmanageable hours of educating little me to figure out the relevant processes, I don't even screen my IRC or anything 23:03:40 <drac_boy> michi_cc mm 23:03:58 <FLHerne> openbox --replace is my usual response to WM failure :P 23:04:15 <drac_boy> methane......can you say......farting? (seriously I have seem some weird tv shows about the danger of farting gas especially when lighting up a pipe in the bathroom) 23:04:35 <FLHerne> Or just killall kwin;kwin 23:05:07 <FLHerne> If I still want to keep the shinyness for some reason 23:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: how large are the chances he actually meant the desktop environment instead of the window manager? 23:05:25 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:05:35 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: No idea. I don't know him or his competence level 23:05:43 <InducTrackerOTTD> Doesn't seem like --replace is something my Awesome (not so much?) mentions 23:05:46 <InducTrackerOTTD> or knows of 23:05:53 * FLHerne assumes people are competent until proven otherwise :-) 23:06:14 <InducTrackerOTTD> Save yourself some time and assume nothing? =p 23:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: dunno, some of the last sentences made me doubt :) 23:06:26 <drac_boy> anyway one little thing I had been wondering about.... 23:06:37 <michi_cc> InducTrackerOTTD: Section R of the Dubbel or the my old turbomachinery script. The prof used to develop turbines at Siemens. But unless you know German it won't really help you :) 23:07:11 <FLHerne> InducTrackerOTTD: There's no point asking someone if they're competent :P 23:07:25 <FLHerne> If they aren't, they don't know :P 23:07:32 <drac_boy> I know that high speed trains slow down at curve unless they can compensate with tilting....but the question is...if it was a freight-only train (mails, crated goods, whatever) could the nontilting train still take curve faster because its only the cab crew that have to mind their likely-padded seat but noone else 23:07:34 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: I think it would be a semi-nice motivation to refresh my german skills =D 23:07:41 <FLHerne> So it's necessary to assume something 23:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and if they are, they're too smart to admit it :) 23:08:00 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-171-143.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:08:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> No I'm not suggesting flat out asking first, that would be a waste of time, but I'm suggesting not assuming as a first step, and always deriving the answer to whether or not on the go 23:08:39 <InducTrackerOTTD> This... sounds like me needing some sleep 23:09:02 <KenjiE20> drac_boy: don't mail trains have sorting offices on them.. so they would probably have to abide the same way pax would 23:09:40 <michi_cc> InducTrackerOTTD: http://www.amazon.de/StationÀre-Gasturbinen-VDI-Buch-Christof-Lechner/dp/3540927875 23:09:41 <drac_boy> KenjiE20 mm I was assuming it was only stored bags ... already processed before it got to the station 23:09:49 <drac_boy> but ^_^ 23:10:12 <KenjiE20> I know our overnight stuff have(had) sorting in transit 23:10:47 <michi_cc> Not my script obviously, but I except a lot of it ended up in that book. 23:11:06 <drac_boy> heh well KenjiE20 I guess I should mention 'uncrewed freights' then perhaps? 23:11:08 <KenjiE20> ah, nvm 23:11:13 <KenjiE20> they ended that 04 23:12:03 *** Sturmi [~sturmi@p4FEDCA9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Sturmi] 23:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: but then you'd have to define a timetable variable based on the cargo 23:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a horrible nightmare 23:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and freight trains aren't optimised for speed anyway 23:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's a total waste of everybodys time 23:13:19 <InducTrackerOTTD> michi_cc: thanks 23:14:54 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d821336.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My life for Aiur] 23:15:02 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause then why are a lot of things airfreighted even although theres no route that can't be paralleled by a high speed line? maybe I shouldn't bother trying understand that :) 23:15:04 <Terkhen> good night 23:15:24 <drac_boy> sea airfreight I can understand since ships don't have any means to go really fast at reasonable cost 23:15:45 <KenjiE20> drac_boy: rail networks are often far too full of pax to squeeze a cargo in 23:16:45 <drac_boy> KenjiE20 tell that to the yellow tgv trainsets? and even although its not exactly normal freight .. what about the vehicles on eurostar especially loaded lorries 23:16:51 <InducTrackerOTTD> You know, I was pondering ekranoplan ships for openttd the other day 23:16:54 <InducTrackerOTTD> =D 23:22:45 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:22:59 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:03 *** literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #openttd 23:26:02 <drac_boy> hm anyway for now I guess I'll go with slight higher speeds for non-pax 23:26:20 <literal> has the option to anchor the landscaping tools to the railway tools been removed? I can't find it 23:27:21 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-156-138.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 23:33:31 <glx> drac_boy: yellow tgv is postal service 23:35:04 <drac_boy> glx my point...its freight technically 23:35:21 <glx> but only runs during night 23:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it also runs on lines that don't really have speed-limiting curves 23:47:53 *** InducTrackerOTTD [~WeeChat@48.63.196.88.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: InducTrackerOTTD] 23:48:23 <drac_boy> slightly on another topic - sometimes I wonder if andy and/or george ever run into the problem of trying not to make too-long industry chains 23:49:25 <drac_boy> one I could imagine would be oil > refined oil > chemicals (+wood) > paper > goods > [town] ... would be quite a network just to get that one cargo done with 23:49:57 <drac_boy> at least theres a lot of simple ones like coal>powerplant or even oil>fuel>town 23:51:48 *** InducTrackerOTTD [~WeeChat@48.63.196.88.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd 23:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> long chains are not necessarily more difficult than heavily interconnected chains 23:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> if you find a sane design, you can run it past andy for an "economy" 23:52:24 <drac_boy> true I guess it depends on what kind of network style you like 23:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> or make an own set 23:52:47 <drac_boy> heh yeah that I keep thinking about ... trains and cargos first tho :) 23:56:17 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd