Log for #openttd on 26th February 2013:
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01:24:17  <wakou2> Hi anybody home?
01:24:53  <wakou2>
01:26:45  <wakou2> Can someone point me to a simple guide to show me how to build a station with overflow. My trains wait at the last siganl on the entry rail. If I put signals on the platform entries, they jst 'stick a nose in' and bloc the whole line until THAT platform is free
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01:51:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you need entry/exit signals for that, it won't work with path signals
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02:43:11  <wakou2> I have tried a few different variants with old stlye siganal, and have given myself a headache!
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02:52:18  <tracerpt> aloha :D
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08:12:46  <andythenorth> not only but also
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08:19:31  <andythenorth> Pokka: bonjour
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08:33:16  <peter1138> quoi
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08:34:15  <Supercheese> Soooo, bridges-over-stations, how's that going? Any patch for testing?
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08:40:49  <oskari89> Bridges over stations, sounds nice :)
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08:56:00  <Pokka> good day gentlemen
08:57:57  <andythenorth> are all of those terms true? :)
08:58:04  <andythenorth> or is it a colloquilsiasdiadasm
09:00:09  <andythenorth> so
09:00:13  <andythenorth> how do I do that?
09:00:32  <andythenorth> I can probably hack at it and do it in 3 or 4 passes, but that smells
09:00:48  <andythenorth> seems like Eddi|zuHause would be able to tell me one neat recursive function for it?
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09:13:29  <Supercheese> "Don't worry about minute grf license details" he says
09:15:18  <Supercheese> anyway, good night
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10:29:54  <tracerpt> good morning
10:47:09  <planetmaker> moin
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10:57:52  <tracerpt> yawn
10:57:59  <tracerpt> think im going back to bed
10:58:03  <tracerpt> :F
11:01:27  <peter1138> good idea
11:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so why is andythenorth never here?
11:05:06  <peter1138> well he was an hour ago
11:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and yesterday. and both times he asked a question to me and was gone by the tiem i read it
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11:17:16  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the "shortest" result i can come up with for his question: "tmp = flatten(input); for i in range(0,len(tmp): output["%d..%d"%(tmp[i],tmp[i+1]-1)] = [j for j,r in enumerate(input) if tmp[i] in range(r*)]"
11:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> where "flatten" is something left to implement that transforms a nested list into a single list, with sorting and erasing duplicates
11:19:07  <Eddi|zuHause> then you get a dict out of it with {"x..y": [0,1], "z..a" [1]} etc.
11:19:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or with a slight modification you can get a list of strings
11:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, there he is :)
11:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it needs to be range(*r)
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11:33:07  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: my code is....long
11:34:06  <andythenorth> input is similar to [[0, 9999], [1900, 1990]]
11:35:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you have a strange way of appending to a list :p
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11:52:33  <andythenorth> I could probably have used a comprehension, but my brain is a mess
11:53:00  <andythenorth> I don't like this code
11:53:07  <andythenorth> otoh it probably works :P
11:54:59  <andythenorth> hmm
11:55:09  <andythenorth> dict.keys() might have arbitrary order?
12:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> add .sorted()
12:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> but you could also use an actual list instead of abusing a dict :p
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12:25:16  <andythenorth> yes
12:25:18  <andythenorth> or even a set
12:25:28  <andythenorth> I write terrible code when I'm sick :P
12:25:41  <andythenorth> and probably when I'm not sick :P
12:28:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: feel free to refactor :)
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14:56:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth try: reduce(set.union, input, set())
14:56:48  <Eddi|zuHause> where input is your list of list
14:57:36  <Eddi|zuHause> this gives you the list of all trigger dates
14:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause> with removed duplicates
15:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> and then: for date in triggers: for counter. (start, end) in enumerate(input): if date in range(start, end): output[date].append(counter)
15:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> misses an output[date]=[]
15:06:43  <andythenorth> bah, can't believe I forgot about enumerate :(
15:06:45  <andythenorth> how silly
15:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the inner loop could be simplified by a list comprehension
15:10:23  <andythenorth> for counter. ?
15:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so: for date in triggers: output[date] = [counter for counter, (start, end) in enumerate(input) if date in range(start, end)]
15:10:45  <andythenorth> nice
15:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that should be a comma
15:11:37  <andythenorth> excellent, that's perfect :)
15:12:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ever play python code golf? o_O
15:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen people play it
15:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but sometimes "short" != "elegant" :)
15:13:07  <andythenorth> no
15:13:15  <andythenorth> there should be python code ballet :P
15:16:18  <Eddi|zuHause> one time in school in a test, my teacher was impressed because my solution was so much shorter and cleaner than his default solution that he used mine instead :)
15:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (that was in pascal, and the question was something like "implement a function that applies word wrap at width x")
15:17:47  <andythenorth> did it have split() and join() ? :P
15:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no
15:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but next(' ') or something
15:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: pascal did not have dynamic arrays/lists, only arrays with fixed length
15:35:52  <andythenorth> how rare
15:35:58  <andythenorth> that must have been fun
15:36:08  <andythenorth> so to append, did you copy the old array into a new array?
15:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> back then, if you wanted to "append" things, you used linked lists instead of arrays
15:45:17  <blathijs> Just like now, except that you don't need to implement the linked list yourself nowadays ;-)
15:45:59  <V453000> snow train
15:47:07  <andythenorth> hagglunds
15:47:15  <andythenorth> V453000 you should do an RV set :P
15:47:42  <andythenorth> V453000: nodwells
15:47:46  <andythenorth> nodwells caused FIRS
15:47:52  <andythenorth> I needed a cargo for them to transport
15:47:55  <andythenorth> so I invented ensp
15:48:02  <andythenorth> then I had to invent the rest of FIRS
15:48:13  <andythenorth> irony: I never added the nodwells to HEQS :P
15:48:22  <V453000> :D
15:48:26  <V453000> rofl
15:48:49  <V453000> caused NUTS
15:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> pfft :p
15:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> should have called it PIVO :p
15:49:53  <andythenorth>
15:50:22  <V453000> :D
15:50:41  <V453000> lol andy :)
15:50:53  <V453000> you can code them as trains?
15:50:55  <V453000> hint hint
15:51:06  <andythenorth> :P
15:51:14  <andythenorth> code everything as trains
15:51:21  <andythenorth> I should stop talking about it, start doing it
15:51:30  <Eddi|zuHause> code them as hovercrafts that go on snow instead of water :p
15:51:34  <andythenorth> then we could drop the other transport types
15:51:43  <andythenorth> V453000: you know your ships can go on sea?
15:52:08  <andythenorth> you just need to use the canals trick
15:52:23  <V453000> if you put water/canal objects around the rails, yes
15:53:05  <V453000> but diagonals are going to be a bit eww
15:55:32  <andythenorth> diagonals will smell
15:55:35  <andythenorth> we need diagonal canals
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15:56:02  <V453000> I guess 1 tile cant have a diagonal object and a diagonal rail on the other half
15:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause> for the canal-tracks, you only need to put two diagonal tracks on the tile
15:56:17  <V453000> But what you can have is 2 diagonal water-rails on 1 tile
15:56:28  <V453000> yeah but they include buoys for the "rail"
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15:56:59  <V453000>
15:57:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose using fences won't work either
15:58:33  <V453000> looks like no fence is created when next co canal
15:58:35  <V453000> to
15:58:35  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't the buoys have different colour on the left and right side?
15:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> fences check who owns the neighbouring tile
15:59:00  <V453000> right
15:59:14  <V453000> different colours, dont know :)
15:59:48  <V453000> felt like r/w and g/y makes the junctions somewhat orientable
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16:03:27  <V453000> but well, the purpose isnt to make these things buildable on water anyway
16:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what the purpose is anyway :p
16:04:37  <V453000> good question :D
16:04:56  <V453000> just wtf value :P also I am kind of known for hating ships, sooo ... :)
16:05:43  <V453000> this makes "ships" viable
16:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: so you buy "bays" in the depot, and it constructs and appropriately sized ship out of the bay sprites? :)
16:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> then use CETS turning magic to keep the sprites together :)
16:07:19  <V453000> sort of
16:07:31  <V453000> it is just a double headed train with wagons
16:07:41  <V453000>
16:07:54  <V453000> 4 wagons in this case
16:08:15  <V453000> sprites very wip :)
16:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause> might want to start with shorter wagons :)
16:09:30  <V453000> hm
16:09:48  <V453000> not sure about that, maybe
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16:49:13  <peter1138> crazy
16:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you are.
16:49:29  <peter1138> wut
16:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> as is everybody else who joins here :p
16:50:41  <andythenorth> me no crazy
16:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> denying you're crazy supports the fact that you are crazy
16:52:28  <V453000> I aint crazy, I iz NUTS
16:52:37  <V453000> difference!
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16:58:13  <andythenorth> catch 22
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17:42:24  <andythenorth>             if date != 9999: # shonky magic special casing for end dates
17:42:24  <andythenorth>
17:42:28  <andythenorth> ho ho
17:42:36  <andythenorth> that's how andythenorth codes :)
17:44:16  <Eddi|zuHause> why have an end date anyway, just use the default clause for infinite?
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17:45:21  <tracerpt> aloha :D
17:56:24  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure there's a better way, I just can't see it :)
17:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, the maximum year is 5000000
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17:57:28  <andythenorth> :)
17:57:58  <andythenorth> so anyone playing with vehicles never expire will get default graphics after 9999
17:58:00  <andythenorth> herp
17:58:05  <andythenorth> there must be a better way than this
17:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so put in 5000001
17:58:19  <andythenorth> well it just smells all wrong
17:58:20  <jonty-comp> overflow the data type
17:58:25  <andythenorth> I should figure out how to do it
17:58:51  <V453000> andythenorth: note that I often test graphics at 19200 :D
17:59:04  <V453000> ... normally I start game at 1920
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18:01:17  <andythenorth> hmm
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18:01:23  <andythenorth> reverse slice last item of list
18:01:24  <andythenorth> should do it
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18:09:00  <andythenorth> eliminated 1 of 2 silly max year checks
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18:11:38  <andythenorth> and 2nd 9999 never shows up in the compiled grf, it's just a config file thing
18:11:42  <andythenorth> that's nicer
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18:39:45  <andythenorth> hmm
18:40:00  <andythenorth> I have no way to support different kinds of smoke
18:40:15  <andythenorth> varying by date
18:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like setting the smoke effect by cb36?
18:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you want cb10?
18:43:00  <andythenorth> I mean that I have engineered my config file system with no thought of smoke :)
18:43:15  <andythenorth> ship graphics can vary by date / random
18:43:24  <andythenorth> including steam / diesel variants
18:43:31  <andythenorth> smoke is lame anyway currently :P
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18:44:31  <NGC3982> :e
18:44:54  <andythenorth> ach, I'll just pack more values in to my nested lists, and unpack them :P
18:45:00  <andythenorth> all will be well
18:45:16  <NGC3982> Uh
18:45:17  <NGC3982> What
18:45:20  <NGC3982> What just happend
18:45:23  <Eddi|zuHause> just attach a smoke effect to the graphics?
18:45:27  <NGC3982>
18:45:28  <NGC3982> What is that?
18:45:29  <NGC3982> :E
18:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: different base graphics set?
18:46:24  <NGC3982> Y..Yes?
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18:46:37  <NGC3982> I have no idea. I have never seen that before.
18:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: so? just change the setting
18:46:52  <NGC3982> When was it changed, and by who? Me?
18:46:52  <NGC3982> :D
18:47:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, by you :p
18:47:21  <NGC3982> By NewGRF or something?
18:47:50  <Eddi|zuHause> most likely by downloading it
18:47:55  <NGC3982> It looks amazing.
18:48:13  <NGC3982> Oh, now i know. I downloaded * from Bananas yesterday.
18:48:20  <NGC3982> I guess baseset's turn on by default
18:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it picks a random one if you didn't specify a specific one yet
18:48:46  <NGC3982> I see.
18:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause> by "random" i mean the "return 4;" kind of random :)
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18:49:59  <NGC3982> As understood
18:50:12  <Alberth> efenink
18:50:13  <NGC3982> The "nothing can ever be random" discussion is filled with poop.
18:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's better than the "nothing can ever be infinite" discussion at any day :p
18:52:56  <Alberth> not even the disccusion itself? :p
18:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i never really understood it, but apparently there are people that say "no (physical) object can be infinite, so you cannot talk about infinity in maths either"
18:55:44  <peter1138> heh
18:56:14  <Alberth> ah, just like the idea of constructive mathematics, where you can only show things to exist by giving an constructive algorithm how to create instances
18:56:15  <NGC3982> The big problem is trying to use things like that in a normal discussion
18:56:46  <NGC3982> If i - on IRC, talking about trains - use the word "random", if of course mean random as in "It's really, really hard to know", and nothing else.
18:56:58  <NGC3982> And simply caring about something else is semantics, wrong or not.
18:57:02  <NGC3982> And i hate that so bad.
18:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, similar to the "i reject the axiom of choice" debate, which is mostly religious anyway
18:57:23  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ..And pretentious.
18:57:51  <Alberth> NGC3982: it does depend on what you see as normal :)     I have often discussions that use abstract mathematical concepts :)
18:57:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that without the axiom of choice, there's still plenty of maths you can do
18:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but if you reject infinity, ...
18:59:14  <Alberth> you can only do finite things, obviously :D
18:59:18  * NGC3982 fills his stomach with infinities of sharon fruit.
18:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you can express infinity in a finite number of axioms :)
19:00:17  <Alberth> :)
19:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause> like "a subset of the natural numbers is called infinite, if there is no upper bound". then "all even numbers" is an infinite set. i said that with a finite number of words.
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19:02:45  <Alberth> I was already convinced :)
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19:03:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, almost everybody is convinced, except a handful of zealots who then poison any discussion about cantor's set theory :p
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19:13:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I could encode the smoke effect in the graphics filename :P
19:13:17  <andythenorth> or I could encode it in the graphics themselves, using colour :o
19:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> sure :)
19:13:30  <andythenorth> that's actually wholly plausible
19:13:54  <andythenorth> hmm, I had a thought for Alberth and now I've lost it :(
19:13:59  <Eddi|zuHause> make the first pixel in one of the magic pink colours :p
19:14:02  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: So what are those people answering if you tell them that some infinities are more infinite than others? ;)
19:14:32  * Alberth helps looking
19:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: yes, that is cantor's set theory :p
19:15:15  <andythenorth> Alberth: I did think that bottle could be used as the basis of a newgrf maker, where players edit via their browser, but that wasn't what I wanted to ask you / tell you :P
19:15:23  * andythenorth is not feeling so good today, brain addled
19:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: but basically it boils down to: "why are you still discussing this? there is no infinity. period."
19:16:55  <andythenorth> Alberth: it wasn't this either, but... "Feature: remove all instances of a string from all lang files" ?
19:17:41  <Alberth> upload a new base language file without the string?
19:17:52  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I'm an engineer, not an mathematicing. I have no clue at all how all those axioms are called, we just use them and are done :)
19:17:54  <andythenorth> good idea, might be worth documenting :)
19:18:24  <Alberth> but yeah, I have not really considered what type of changes you might want to do on the strings
19:18:25  <andythenorth> Alberth: I did improve the string edit layout on Sunday night, and add error class handling
19:18:35  <andythenorth> I also solved, sufficiently, the passing template message
19:18:43  <Alberth> \o/
19:19:26  <andythenorth> it smells of a hack, but I think it's a valid hack
19:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: well cantor's set theory starts with "is there a set of all sets?" and then "is the set of all sets element of itself?" resulting in "there can't be a set of all sets, so there must be a nested hierarchy of sets"
19:19:46  <andythenorth> also there are error classes available for success / warning / info / failure
19:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and from that on you get a hierarchy of infinities, by starting with the natural numbers as the base infinity, and the power-sets as the hierarchy
19:20:33  <andythenorth> herp, it's annoying to forget a thought :|
19:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and to decide whether there are more kinds of infinity than in this hierarchy, you need the axiom of choice
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19:23:30  <Alberth> oh, if it's any good, it'll come back. Otherwise, it was not good enough anyway :)
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19:24:05  <andythenorth> yeah that
19:24:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the worst answer to a forgotten thought ever :p
19:24:16  <andythenorth> yes but no
19:24:18  <andythenorth> it's true
19:24:24  <andythenorth> but it doesn't stop the annoyance
19:24:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "i had a proof of fermat's last theorem, but i forgot it" - "then it wasn't any good" :p
19:24:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: I was wondering how close WT was to done
19:26:39  <Alberth> I have 3 points to do. 1) fix doing a translation (coded but not tested)   2) cleanup old changes (currently they are kept infinitely, if you believe such a thing exists)  3) some form of user admin
19:26:56  <Alberth> where the 3rd one is a bit of a problem
19:27:32  <Alberth> then you need some documentation for authors and translators
19:27:51  <Alberth> then it is time to look around what else is missing
19:28:24  <Alberth> probably stuff is missing from a practical use point of view
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19:28:47  <Alberth> quak
19:28:55  <frosch123> moin :)
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19:35:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25049 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt unfinished/thai.txt) (2013-02-26 18:45:13 UTC)
19:35:22  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:23  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 13 changes by Stabilitronas
19:35:24  <DorpsGek> thai - 12 changes by angelix
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19:46:41  <Terkhen> hello
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19:56:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm thinking maybe we let it loose on other people?
19:56:40  <andythenorth> either they run it themselves...or we ask about devzone hosting
19:57:16  <andythenorth> assuming anyone is interested :)
20:00:04  <Alberth> yes, after 1 + 2, imho
20:02:15  <andythenorth> also the project overview screen sucks right now, layout wise :)
20:02:19  <andythenorth> I should fix that
20:04:52  <andythenorth> also the language view - might benefit from an explicit 'start' fixing button for each status group
20:05:42  <planetmaker> well, of course the devzone offers hosting :-)
20:05:55  <planetmaker> or rather: also using :D
20:06:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to try setting up WT there? o_O
20:06:29  <andythenorth> it appears to have little or no deps
20:06:37  <andythenorth> but I'd run it in a vm, it might be insecure :)
20:07:55  <andythenorth> Alberth: the idea I lost earlier - the ability to mark some strings in base lang as 'do not translate'
20:08:10  <andythenorth> there may be other better ways to do that
20:08:19  <andythenorth> it's not a common case, but occasionally comes up
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20:08:29  <Alberth> quickly, make a feature request :)
20:09:20  <Alberth> hmm, I had a discussion with y3xo about this, iirc he was not so happy adding such a feature to the file format, but I need to look that up
20:09:34  *** mseidl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09:51  <andythenorth> not sure it's valid yet
20:10:27  <Alberth> there is a route to  /fix/<proj_name>/<lname>  to select a random string to fix
20:10:38  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced by translating this for example  STR_GRF_URL
20:11:04  <Alberth> it does have fix priorities internally, but these are constant currently
20:12:11  <Alberth> isn't that a custom_tag thingie?
20:12:47  <Alberth> or do you use planetmakers type of custom_tags, entirely generated ?
20:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: iirc the conclusion was to put that in custom_tags.txt
20:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but potentially a website could have a language parameter or something :)
20:15:39  <andythenorth> I don't mind moving strings
20:15:51  <andythenorth> I hadn't understood the purpose of custom tags
20:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the makefile autogenerates custom_tags.txt to include the version/revision number
20:23:24  <andythenorth> so what do we think the right thing to do is?
20:23:43  <andythenorth> I could just leave these strings in place, and let translators do whatever
20:23:47  <andythenorth> it would be a nice hack btw
20:24:03  <andythenorth> I don't review translations, so just put the url to goatse or porn or something
20:24:07  <andythenorth> what larks
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20:25:47  <peter1138> LARKS!
20:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you mean LCARS!
20:26:39  <peter1138> well... no
20:29:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> LARCS?
20:30:39  <oskari89> Light Almighty Rail Car Set?
20:30:55  <oskari89> That would be nice, generic cars on rails
20:31:08  <Belugas> Larks Tongues In Aspic
20:31:36  <Supercheese> No one got the Star Trek reference? :<
20:32:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> didnt want to mention
20:33:42  <peter1138> that's not really a reference
20:33:45  <andythenorth> Supercheese: too busy not talking about licensing to think about your Star Trek obsession
20:34:11  <peter1138> it's like saying "no, you mean DARTH VADER" and calling that a starwars reference...
20:34:27  <Supercheese> well, it is, isn't it?
20:34:46  <Supercheese> tad more subtle I suppose
20:34:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: you expect people to shout out "YES I GOT THE REFERENCE"?
20:37:48  <Supercheese>
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20:39:48  <Supercheese> When it doubt, put it on a shirt and sell it
20:39:53  <Supercheese> in doubt*
20:41:01  <andythenorth> I GOT THE REFERENCE
20:41:01  <andythenorth> not
20:41:02  <andythenorth> :)
20:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't think there are a lot of people here who never heard of LCARS before
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20:47:37  <andythenorth> Alberth: <- actions at the bottom: download and remove could be links in the table?
20:47:41  <andythenorth> per language?
20:49:14  <Alberth> good idea
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21:00:23  <andythenorth> wtf, I can actually use a valid definition list
21:00:28  <andythenorth> never done that before, in 15 years
21:01:23  <Alberth> valid definition of what?
21:02:00  <Alberth> btw shall we disable the reloader?
21:02:08  <andythenorth> module reloader yes
21:02:19  <andythenorth> definition is of string statuses
21:02:30  <andythenorth> I can use <dl><dt><dd> for the first time ever
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21:03:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: pull?
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21:05:04  <Alberth> ah, 'download' is like the download button at a language page of course
21:05:11  <andythenorth> I guessed
21:05:54  <andythenorth> we should store those definition strings as content somewhere
21:05:56  <andythenorth> and make them available
21:06:01  <andythenorth> anywhere in the app
21:07:02  <Alberth> why? they don't need to be translated, or are you talking about other definitions than custom_tags now?
21:07:40  <andythenorth> other definitions
21:07:48  <andythenorth> "Unknown: means the state of the translation was not decidable"
21:07:49  <andythenorth> etc
21:07:59  <andythenorth> that is reusable copy within the web translator
21:08:05  <Alberth> oh :)
21:08:06  <andythenorth> could be used as help text in any page
21:08:18  <andythenorth> I'll probably just stuff it in a dict somewhere
21:08:20  <andythenorth> hmm
21:08:28  <andythenorth> there is a bad pattern, called:
21:08:33  <Alberth> make a help page?
21:08:41  <andythenorth> "andy puts everything in because he doesn't know where it should go"
21:09:55  <Alberth> looks good as temporary storage :)
21:10:57  <Alberth> datetime stuff fits better near Stamp, but there are some other pieces to add there as well
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21:12:53  <planetmaker> so... you need a VM for that stuff?
21:13:00  <andythenorth> I reckon it's safer
21:13:06  <andythenorth> I wouldn't run it on the bare OS
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21:13:31  <andythenorth> it offers file upload to the filesystem, and could be full of vulnerabilities :)
21:13:39  <planetmaker> well. nothing on the devzone except the HV runs on "the bare OS" ;-)
21:14:05  <planetmaker> but yes... neither the DevZone VM might be best choice. So new one
21:14:20  <planetmaker> they're cheap :D
21:14:24  <Alberth> planetmaker: it needs some form of user authentication first, imho
21:15:01  <planetmaker> Alberth, yes... likely sensible :-)
21:15:13  <planetmaker> so you don't need it now... but soon
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21:21:59  <andythenorth> Alberth: can you pull, then tell me where to find the correct identifiers for statuses (keys for dict rendered in project overview)?
21:23:14  <Alberth>
21:23:58  <andythenorth> thanks
21:24:12  <Alberth> pull is going to be tricky atm :)
21:24:32  <andythenorth> ho, some of them have dashes
21:24:32  <andythenorth> up-to-date
21:24:41  <andythenorth> it freaks me out that this is never a problem :)
21:24:57  <andythenorth> I got habituated to underscores everywhere in variable names etc
21:25:17  <andythenorth> or
21:25:19  <andythenorth> hmm
21:25:31  <andythenorth> for a key, am I better using UP_TO_DATE or up-to-date?
21:25:52  <CornishPasty> andythenorth: Use up_TO-datE
21:25:56  <andythenorth> lovely
21:26:07  <CornishPasty> Make sure it's case-sensitive too
21:26:10  <andythenorth> mixed bulgarian-latvian-genoan notation
21:26:15  <CornishPasty> Oh wait
21:26:20  <CornishPasty> doesn't it need to be like
21:26:27  <CornishPasty> boolUp_to-DATE
21:26:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and then have different cases mean different variables :p
21:26:35  <andythenorth> ideal
21:26:38  <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: Yup
21:26:42  <andythenorth> or have some mean objs
21:26:44  <andythenorth> others mean vars
21:26:49  <andythenorth> others are methods
21:26:53  <CornishPasty> booThatCouldBeAnIntUp-TO_DatE
21:27:11  <CornishPasty> boolUp_TO-_D-Ate = 6
21:27:33  <peter1138> true/false/yes/no/file_not_found
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21:28:42  <CornishPasty> peter1138: What about the edge case? file_was_found?
21:28:59  <CornishPasty> Which actually returns when the filesystem is corrupted
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21:29:52  <Alberth> andythenorth: those are strings, not variables
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21:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always amazed at the totally constructive error message windows gives when there's a ':' in the filename :p
21:30:32  <andythenorth> ok, so I was reading the code that returns state to string_edit for exmple
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21:30:52  <andythenorth> seems like what I'm doing should be reused elsewhere
21:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you can neither open the file nor rename it then :p
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21:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but it fails to explain why
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21:31:37  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you must truly love such a system :p
21:32:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm going to do what I think is right, and hope you can help fix later ;)
21:32:16  <peter1138> file_might_be_there_but_good_luck_getting_to_it
21:33:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and because this error appears only every odd year, you search for a few minutes where the problem actually is, before you remember
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21:38:57  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25050 trunk/ (2013-02-26 20:48:50 UTC)
21:38:58  <DorpsGek> -Fix: use the CC_BUILD compiler for preprocessing the extra GRF's source instead of a hardcoded gcc
21:38:59  <DorpsGek> -Fix: do not let gcc include files from the "standard C" include directories; newer gcc/libc seem to otherwise automatically include some header files at the top of the preprocessed nfo files which causes NFOrenum/GRFcodec to make invalid assumptions about the NFO version
21:39:14  <Rubidium> ... or in other words, effectively an one line fix
21:40:37  <Kjetil> the commit message is longer than the diff ? :P
21:40:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's more common than you think :p
21:41:19  <frosch123> yay, we are approaching a symmetric revision number
21:41:52  <Rubidium> really? I'd reckon we already passed it 25 revisions ago
21:41:54  <Kjetil> I guess I should't speak to loudly. Commited changes to code comments earlier today
21:42:16  <Kjetil> 2 commits to go
21:43:13  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i really hoped i wouldn't need to save/load anything :/
21:43:18  <frosch123> 25252 will be fun :)
21:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, i didn't consider base grfs
21:44:15  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: breaking savegames by disabling grfs is already fun, breaking savegames by changing the order of grfs even more
21:44:43  <Rubidium> frosch123: IMHO 25025 is more symmetric than 25052 ;)
21:44:47  <frosch123> i would expect grfs to use the random seed for quite troublesome stuff, so it should not change unexpectedly
21:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't understand the difference between patch vars and global vars
21:45:18  <frosch123>
21:45:30  <Kjetil> In the year 2525 if man is still alive
21:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if you have a 7-segment digital display, 25025 would be both even and odd symmetric :)
21:46:26  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: exactly what I was thinking about
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21:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but wouldn't that mean you first have to copy it to a parameter to use it in an action2?
21:48:18  <frosch123> yes
21:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that better then?
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21:48:55  <frosch123> i have no idea what you want to do with that var. but other vars of that type are patchvars
21:48:59  <frosch123> e.g. mapsize
21:49:12  <frosch123> and i think in nml it makes no difference
21:50:54  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: btw. ais ans gs have the option to request random values in their parameters
21:51:08  <frosch123> so, you can also make it an a14 feature, and store the values in the grfconfig
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21:51:23  <frosch123> then a grf can take multiple random values just as it likes
21:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds interesting
21:51:37  <frosch123> and i like the idea of unifying ais, gss and grfs
21:52:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that means ditch this, and go back to the drawing board
21:52:12  <frosch123>
21:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so a new setting type "random", which will not be displayed in the gui, but fill the associated parameter bits with random values?
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21:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- i mean here
22:01:41  <andythenorth> Alberth: can the base language have errors?
22:01:45  <andythenorth> or are all strings 'correct'
22:01:46  <andythenorth> ?
22:02:30  <andythenorth> I assume always correct
22:02:37  <Alberth> normally they are correct
22:02:53  <andythenorth> I can't think how they are 'uncorrect'
22:02:58  <andythenorth> what would you compare against?
22:03:31  <Alberth> you can have problems in the form of adding illegal strings, like "{BLECK" but they should get blocked from being uploaded
22:03:44  <andythenorth> ok
22:04:01  <Alberth> or stuff like "{P x y}"
22:04:16  <Alberth> ie no command to derive plural from
22:04:48  <Alberth> or doing that in a language without plurals :p
22:11:04  <andythenorth> Alberth:
22:11:30  <frosch123> he, suddenly looks professional :o
22:11:31  <andythenorth> I suspect that using this to detect if a language has errors (or not) is very silly: if counts[1] == bcounts[1]:
22:11:46  <andythenorth> would be nice to have a flag for errors / not
22:11:51  <Alberth> pretty :)
22:12:07  <andythenorth> not my work
22:12:16  <andythenorth> I just build on the shoulders of giants :)
22:12:29  <frosch123> i have no idea about that stuff, so i am probably impressed by  a few lines of css :p
22:12:35  <Alberth> every giant does :)
22:12:50  <andythenorth> frosch123:
22:12:56  <andythenorth> ^ I just apply styles from there :P
22:12:58  <frosch123> though i wonder what happened the the srif project
22:13:00  <andythenorth> and maybe a bit of brain
22:13:10  <andythenorth> this web translator needs to be finished :)
22:13:18  <andythenorth> FIRS translations are becoming a PITA
22:15:10  <andythenorth> hmm table row colouring for success / not :P
22:15:14  <andythenorth> probly not needed
22:16:13  <Rubidium> andythenorth: a nice 'progress' bar per language could give a clue about the language's state
22:16:19  <andythenorth> that's intriguing
22:17:05  <Rubidium> or rather, a 90 degree rotated stacked bar chart
22:18:17  <frosch123> better make the table sortable :p
22:18:28  <Rubidium> and filterable
22:18:44  <frosch123> oh yeah, filter for > 50% or so to fake statistics :)
22:18:53  <andythenorth> sortable and filterable can be done
22:18:58  <andythenorth> fake statistics I delegae
22:19:01  <andythenorth> delegate *
22:20:05  <frosch123> anyway, don't express the completion state with 5 digits precision, or i'll flame you like i did tb back then :p
22:20:47  <Rubidium> anyhow, isn't "fake statistics" a tautology?
22:21:08  <frosch123> no, it's an emphasis
22:21:29  <frosch123> "the statistic is faked" would be a tautology
22:21:29  <Rubidium> like "real statistics" exist ;)
22:27:06  <Alberth> andythenorth:  the order of the explanations is weird compared to the order of the columns ?
22:27:38  <andythenorth> oh :P
22:27:47  <andythenorth> now you want a pony?
22:28:03  <andythenorth> can you make python dicts return in a predictable order? o_O
22:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause> sorted(dict.values)
22:29:19  <andythenorth> yes, that's predictable :)
22:29:29  <andythenorth> I should ask better questions
22:31:10  <Eddi|zuHause> well you can provide an ordering function, to change the order
22:31:22  <peter1138> 8~9999999999999999999999999900000000000000000000000000000000000000000-=69o99999998i8888888888888887778888
22:31:25  <peter1138> oops
22:31:33  <SpComb> how's that new keyboard going?
22:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a password? :p
22:31:40  <peter1138> well
22:31:50  <peter1138> 8 was physically sticking down
22:31:52  <peter1138> just solved that
22:32:02  <peter1138> i striped it all and cleaned it up
22:32:04  <peter1138> it's working now
22:32:05  <SpComb> my 0 key is sticky :(
22:32:08  <peter1138> plus it's nice & clean
22:32:15  <SpComb> need to yank it off and clean it out
22:32:33  <peter1138> i soaked the plastic parts for a couple of hours
22:32:39  <peter1138> all came out nice
22:32:53  <frosch123> oh, at my university there was a keyboard in some computer pool.... when you pressed the 5 on the numpad, all nine keys went down :s
22:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> one day when i came into an office, the person said "my computer behaves woird when it starts up, it asks me something about harddisks and stuff"
22:33:02  <peter1138> nah, 8 is still a bit dodgy :S
22:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> turned out the F12 key was stuck :p
22:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so it displayed the boot menu
22:33:43  <andythenorth> Alberth:
22:34:14  <frosch123> what changed?
22:34:16  <Alberth> thanks
22:34:40  <andythenorth> I really like this templating language btw
22:35:57  <andythenorth> it would be good for templating nml
22:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> #
22:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> REWRITE IT
22:37:07  <Alberth> sshhh!
22:38:30  <andythenorth> "Do not render untrusted templates! They may contain and execute harmful python code."
22:38:32  <andythenorth> :)
22:38:42  <andythenorth> not good for a web translator :)
22:38:50  <andythenorth> nvm
22:39:12  <frosch123> night
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22:41:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: nah, it can't be worse than SQL injection :p
22:42:05  <andythenorth> probly about the same :)
22:42:24  <andythenorth> but I think we'd have to do something stupid
22:42:34  <andythenorth> like eval(input_from_untrusted_user)
22:43:30  <andythenorth> anyway, it looks nice for nml templating
22:43:42  <andythenorth> more powerful than python's Template module
22:43:56  <andythenorth> but doesn't leave xml crap everywhere like chameleon
22:45:01  <andythenorth> and it has a simple %include syntax
22:46:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and you find a new templating language every other week, so what?
22:46:49  <andythenorth> so nothing in my case
22:47:01  <andythenorth> I wouldn't recommend chameleon to most people though
22:47:13  <andythenorth> not for templating nml anyway :P
22:47:22  <andythenorth> I used it because I know it
22:47:50  <Alberth> andythenorth: get_status_definition_strings() looks wrong, dicts have random order, giving you no chance to match the order of columns. Also, it looks SOOOO python2-ish, we have now :)
22:48:08  <andythenorth> oh we do do we? :)
22:48:27  <andythenorth> I had to add an order-control list, which I hate as a pattern
22:48:39  <andythenorth> could have done one of those weird mult-dict constructs
22:48:42  <andythenorth> but they're odd
22:48:43  <Alberth> I used it in newgrf/language_file
22:48:57  <Alberth> why not use a list?
22:49:06  <Alberth> or are they used elsewhere too?
22:49:12  <andythenorth> I want to use them elsewhere
22:49:29  <andythenorth> you use STATE_MAP to provide mappings to strings?
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22:49:41  <andythenorth> I think that should be replaced or unified with what I've done
22:49:43  <Alberth> yes
22:49:57  <andythenorth> not urgent
22:50:01  <Alberth> sounds like a good idea :)
22:50:14  <andythenorth> then I can use the Title attribute for display
22:50:22  <andythenorth> and I can set a tooltip which shows the description
22:50:26  <andythenorth> everywhere they are used
22:50:36  <andythenorth> and I can call .lower() on them if they are in a sentence :P
22:50:40  <Alberth> I changed string editing, it needs adding a message
22:50:50  <andythenorth> is it committed?
22:50:55  <Alberth> yep
22:51:17  <Alberth> and you have a 'needs_fixing' flag in the project page :)
22:51:34  <andythenorth> neat
22:51:49  <andythenorth> so what message is needed?
22:53:07  <Alberth> at line 385 of pages/, you are thrown back onto the same string page as you still have errors in that string
22:54:04  <Alberth> line 304 is the other call of that function, which is when you start editing a string for the first time
22:54:42  <Alberth> you also had a comment on the language page, didn't you?
22:55:06  <andythenorth> hmm
22:55:09  <andythenorth> I don't recall :)
22:55:18  <andythenorth> it was a long day :)
22:56:40  <Alberth> k
22:56:57  <andythenorth> hmm
22:56:59  <Alberth> I think the actual current text should be added there
22:57:13  <andythenorth> where has my nasty hack with request.query['message'] = foo gone?
22:57:20  <andythenorth> did you find a better way?
22:57:37  <Alberth> not that I know
22:58:06  <andythenorth> ho :)
22:58:08  <Alberth> where did you put that?
22:58:11  <andythenorth> I forget
22:58:19  <andythenorth> not helpful :)
23:03:35  <andythenorth> maybe I imagined it
23:04:25  <Alberth> I hope so :)
23:05:20  <andythenorth> oops
23:05:23  <andythenorth> forgot reload is off :)
23:06:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: so to add a message when returning a template
23:06:13  <andythenorth>     request.query['message'] = 'blah'
23:06:16  <andythenorth> before the return
23:06:32  <andythenorth> I'll test it for string edit
23:06:44  <Alberth> sounds good
23:07:12  <Alberth> Added 4 bugs for eints that need being done
23:08:05  <Alberth> but not tonight :)
23:10:22  <andythenorth> one more commit from me
23:10:23  <andythenorth> then bed
23:10:39  <peter1138> isn't it way past?
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23:12:16  <andythenorth> 22:22, so probably
23:12:17  <Eddi|zuHause> just... one... more... commit
23:12:37  <andythenorth> no more nice numbers today, so bedtime
23:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> what about 23:45?
23:12:54  <andythenorth> oh
23:12:58  <andythenorth> yes
23:13:03  <andythenorth> but I'm not staying up for it :P
23:13:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: l385-6 show a quick hack for error
23:13:19  <andythenorth> I'm not sure it's a good method still
23:13:42  <andythenorth> I would rather pass it to a method somewhere, so we can replace easily in future if wrong
23:13:58  <andythenorth> or pass an error object around when calling a template
23:14:13  <andythenorth> error / message /s
23:14:44  <Alberth> it does look a bit fishy indeed
23:15:04  <andythenorth> especially if you read the bottle source, where request.query is ReadOnly :P
23:15:10  <andythenorth> assuming I understand it correctly
23:15:36  <andythenorth> create a message class, pass instances of it
23:15:44  <andythenorth> bit heavyweight, could use a dict, but...
23:15:50  <andythenorth> ...seems more robust
23:15:57  <andythenorth> problem for not-today ;)
23:16:18  <Alberth> Mark it with # XXX Needs a better solution    ?
23:16:34  <andythenorth> k
23:17:15  <andythenorth> done
23:17:17  <andythenorth> bed
23:17:24  <andythenorth> might be here tomorrow, otherwise thursday
23:20:10  <Alberth> good night :)
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