Log for #openttd on 2nd October 2013:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:19  <Tulitomaatti> ^ doable but illegilible :D
00:00:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the largest recorded number in roman numerals is 3 million, which repeats the 100.000 sign 30 times
00:01:15  <Tulitomaatti> except if you cheat and use powers and other math. VII*X^M
00:02:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you really wouldn't want to calculate powers in an additive system... even multiplication is already way less fun :)
00:03:17  <Tulitomaatti> i imagine coding a class to handle arithmetics with those is... fun!? :D
00:04:20  <glx> better code a converter class and do the math as usual ;)
00:04:23  <Tulitomaatti> especially if you don't do it so that you always convert operants to normal stuff
00:04:27  <Tulitomaatti> -ts +ds
00:04:41  <Tulitomaatti> glx: yeah... but what's the fun part in there?
00:04:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you should at least "normalize" out the subtraction rule
00:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. IX -> VIIII
00:05:49  <glx> and VI -> V -> IV
00:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> then you need a multiplication table for each pair of literals
00:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have a "simple" text replacement
00:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and after that you have to re-normalize again
00:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. sort and combine
00:08:27  <glx> you can simplify using groups I-V-X X-L-C C-D-M
00:08:39  <glx> each group follow the same rules
00:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> so for example XIX*VII -> XVIIII*VII -> (LXX)(XXVVV)(VII)(VII)(VII)(VII) -> L XXXX VVVVVV IIIIIIII -> CXXVII
00:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea whether that is correct :)
00:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i seem to miss a V
00:14:00  <glx> and a I disappeared :)
00:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, was just searching for that one, because it can't be even :p
00:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> better now :)
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05:08:54  <dihedral> good morning
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05:50:39  <Supercheese> wtf, the Google homepage just completely changed
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06:34:57  <planetmaker> moin
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06:42:09  <V453000> moo pm
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06:46:39  <Supercheese> 'night
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11:35:35  <mygameuplay> anyone on?
11:35:38  <mygameuplay> i need help
11:36:13  <mygameuplay> who do i contact so that i record OpenTTD vids and then moentize them
11:36:22  <mygameuplay> so that i have copyright permission to do so
11:36:50  <Pinkbeast> mygameuplay: What on earth makes you think there's money in OTTD gameplay videos?
11:37:31  <__ln__> mygameuplay: don't contact anyone.
11:37:48  <V453000> I really wonder which idiot would pay for openttd videos
11:38:16  <planetmaker> put ads next to a youtube video probably counts as monetization
11:38:24  <mygameuplay> its so I can receive moey from t
11:38:25  <mygameuplay> it
11:38:40  <V453000> :d
11:38:53  <Pinkbeast> mygameuplay: That is the usual meaning of "monetization", yes. Why not tell us what a "video" is next?
11:39:07  <__ln__> why not come up with a method to convert the in-game money into real money
11:39:20  <planetmaker> oh, that'd be nifty, __ln__
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11:39:38  <planetmaker> mygameuplay, so, does google / youtube ask you to obtain that permission before you may host a video?
11:39:43  <Pinkbeast> __ln__: Why not a real-life daylength patch so you can live more and age less?
11:39:56  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, +1 on that, too ;-)
11:40:23  <Pinkbeast> Although I'd want cargod*st too. I don't normally go to the station, get on the first train, and get off wherever it stops next.
11:40:29  <mygameuplay> look
11:40:42  <mygameuplay> i just need perm from someone so that i can do it
11:40:52  <Pinkbeast> mygameuplay: There is no-one who can give you such permission.
11:41:19  <blathijs> I wonder if a gameplay video constitutes a derived work from the graphics shown. If so, distributing videos with the original graphics would be impossible and usign OpenGFX the video would be licensed as GPL...
11:41:49  <mygameuplay> i played CS
11:41:55  <mygameuplay> and i needed perm for that
11:42:04  <mygameuplay> even though it was decayed lite version
11:42:21  <Pinkbeast> I always get a perm before I play CS. It's important that your hair looks good, don't you think?
11:42:35  <V453000> seriously? how do you need permission to post things you recording your activity on your pc
11:42:40  <V453000> law is fucked up if thats true
11:42:50  <planetmaker> loooook, Pinkbeast :-) I guess I just learnt a new word :D
11:43:04  <V453000> wtf is CS, too
11:43:11  <planetmaker> counterstrike
11:43:13  <V453000> I doubt it means Creative Suite in this case
11:43:14  <Pinkbeast> It's a kind of riot gas, everyone knows that.
11:43:16  <V453000> oh hm
11:43:20  <V453000> you can shoot people there eh
11:43:39  <planetmaker> just like in OpenTTD. If you drive the apache or fighter plane
11:44:00  <Pinkbeast> Why shoot people when you can stop their bus on a level crossing and steamroller them with a train?
11:44:03  <planetmaker> the submarine on the other hand is just curious and not offensive
11:44:17  <mygameuplay> haha
11:44:27  <planetmaker> mygameuplay, the problem is: who should give you such permission?
11:44:28  <mygameuplay> u guys are SOOOOO funny
11:44:43  <mygameuplay> owner of openttd
11:44:49  <planetmaker> mygameuplay, the game has its license, that tells what is allowed and what not. The same goes for 3rd-party graphics, if you use any
11:45:00  <planetmaker> and then there's general copyright law
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11:45:41  <planetmaker> which in my eyes allows taking screenshots and gameplay movies under the provisions of "fair use" or so. but I'm not a lawyer
11:45:50  <planetmaker> nor am I the sole copyright holder
11:46:00  <blathijs> mygameuplay: There is no single owner of OpenTTD (nor OpenGFX), so if you need any particular permission that is not covered by the license, you'd have to get permission from all contributors (that's dozens) separately
11:46:04  <planetmaker> so that view of mine is ... not overly relevant.
11:46:20  <mygameuplay> ok
11:46:25  <mygameuplay> thanks guys
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11:46:46  <blathijs> mygameuplay: I don't know about the legal status of a gameplay video, especially wrt the GPL license. Like planetmaker says, it could be seen as fair use.
11:46:57  <planetmaker> he
11:46:58  <blathijs> mygameuplay: I'm pretty sure that if you ...
11:47:02  <planetmaker> he's gone
11:47:25  <planetmaker> I really wonder. We also rather frequently get the same question via e-mail. I wonder where this all comes from
11:47:33  <planetmaker> I wished he had answered that question :-)
11:49:13  <Pinkbeast> I think some big evil games company (EA?) has vaguely suggested you might need permission for LPs, probably as part of a shakedown, and whatever spammy ad company does this stuff is handing the problem off to the video authors.
11:50:02  <planetmaker> actually... OpenSFX may explicitly NOT be monetized
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11:50:46  <blathijs> planetmaker: Perhaps from here:
11:51:02  <planetmaker> yeah, I assume so
11:51:28  <V453000> so nobody can make an openttd video with opensfx and put it on youtube theoretically? that sounds dumb
11:51:40  <Pinkbeast> This is clearly a bit spurious because it's not like monetization makes a given video more or less of a copyright violation.
11:51:53  <V453000> mhm yeah
11:52:03  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, not true. It depends on the rights you have
11:52:03  <Pinkbeast> V453000: Nobody can do that and get money from Youtube for doing it, which is a state of the world I can live with.
11:52:11  <planetmaker> and "non-commercial" is found very often
11:52:27  <planetmaker> monetization clearly is commercial, though
11:53:01  <V453000> youtube paying for views or whatnot is a strange idea on its own tbh :)
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11:54:23  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Fair point, if you're in a jurisdiction where EULAs work on ordinary users.
11:54:36  <planetmaker> @ Pinkbeast - it makes for lenghty closing credits :D
11:55:47  <planetmaker>
11:56:37  <blathijs> V453000: I think the OpenSFX limitations only apply if you need the license to get the right to publish your video. If you just post a short snippet that could be seen as fair use (or perhaps a "quote" which has special conditions in copyright law), then you don't need permission through the license and the license's conditions don't need to apply I think
11:56:41  <planetmaker> add to that and and it's quite long :-)
11:57:04  <planetmaker> yes, what blathijs says
11:57:35  <planetmaker> I mean, it's good that youtube raises an awareness for the issue that you cannot simply put online everything
11:57:43  <planetmaker> but it has to be seen in relation really
11:58:29  <planetmaker> and the knowledge of what constitutes a quote, what 'fair use' (or its equivalent) is often not well communicated as everything focuses only on copyright, copyright and forbidding to copy/share/distribute
11:58:40  <planetmaker> without mentioning the actual rights users have
12:00:50  <Pinkbeast> I think the saintly desire to "raise an awareness" has very little to do with it. :-)
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12:03:40  <planetmaker> btw, Ristovski if you have an issue again to pull from a repo, use for now
12:03:55  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Okay!
12:04:13  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, sure, it's selfish. They need to maintain their safe-harbour thing to not become eligible for issues themselves
12:05:35  <planetmaker> which is also why they exercise a first ban, then ask policy, like so many
12:05:47  <planetmaker> (which in my eyes is totally distorted part of the law)
12:06:02  <Ristovski> planetmaker: what is the issue btw
12:06:07  <Ristovski> hg server crashed?
12:06:40  <planetmaker> no, not really. But effectively the hg web backend is acting up
12:07:41  <planetmaker> so I guess we need to replace hgweb by something more suitable
12:08:30  <Ristovski> Ah, ok
12:09:59  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I cant seem to find any NML compiler for Archlinux, any ideas?
12:10:04  <Ristovski> (like source code of it)
12:10:21  <planetmaker> python needs no compilation. Just get a checkout of the NML repository
12:10:34  <Ristovski> ok
12:11:11  <planetmaker> it's also easier to update then :-)
12:11:42  <Ristovski> Yeah, :P
12:13:33  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I only found it in bundles.openttdcoop, where can I find the repo>
12:14:04  <planetmaker> [14:01] <planetmaker> btw, Ristovski if you have an issue again to pull from a repo, use for now :D
12:14:19  <planetmaker> with PROJECTNAME = nml
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12:14:39  <Ristovski> *drops head on table*
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12:15:02  <planetmaker> :-)
12:15:13  <Ristovski> Now I cant find python-plex
12:15:17  <Ristovski> grr, damnit arch
12:15:30  <Ristovski> python-ply actually
12:15:57  <planetmaker> actually, the source is also on the bundles server...
12:16:07  <Ristovski> Meh, i found it in AUR
12:16:09  <planetmaker> just not as repository but as tar ball
12:16:30  <planetmaker> yes. and python-imaging (or python-PIL)
12:17:47  <planetmaker> btw, python need be python 2.6 or python 2.7 (maybe 2.5, not sure)
12:18:28  <Ristovski> i only found PIL for python3
12:18:37  <planetmaker> eh... that doesn't exist :-)
12:18:49  <planetmaker> that must be pillow actually
12:18:53  <Ristovski> Yeha
12:18:55  <Ristovski> yeah*
12:19:12  <Ristovski> Well, I guess I cant have the dev opengfx :C
12:19:15  <Ristovski> doesnt matter
12:19:31  <planetmaker> that doesn't matter
12:19:47  <planetmaker> PIL and pillow also exist for python2
12:19:54  <Ristovski> Not in arch seems like
12:20:07  <Ristovski> Ill search for source later
12:20:19  <planetmaker> python2-imaging
12:20:28  <planetmaker>
12:21:13  <Ristovski> Oh, thanks
12:22:34  <Ristovski> "ImportError: No module named ply.lex"
12:22:42  <Ristovski> But I have python-ply
12:22:51  <planetmaker> for python3?
12:23:00  <Ristovski> Let me check
12:23:28  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Derp, yup
12:25:05  <Ristovski> planetmaker: cant I just use easy_install?
12:25:32  <Xaroth|Work> don't use pil
12:25:33  <Xaroth|Work> use pillow :|
12:25:40  <Xaroth|Work> pil has been deprecated for ages
12:26:05  <Xaroth|Work> and pip install ply
12:26:07  <Xaroth|Work> should work
12:26:21  <Xaroth|Work> (if pip isn't available, easy_install pip )
12:26:26  <Ristovski> it works now
12:26:33  <planetmaker> no idea, Ristovski. try?
12:26:39  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yup, works
12:26:42  <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: might be useful to make a requirements.txt
12:26:42  <Ristovski> thanks for helping
12:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> monetization clearly is commercial, though <-- my non-lawyer-y opinion says no to that. for "commercial" you need to get a _significant_ amount of money. (like more than 400€ per month, over all your similar activities)
12:26:48  <Xaroth|Work> so you can tell people to do pip install -r requirements.txt
12:27:01  <Ristovski> Xaroth|Work: good idea
12:27:18  <Xaroth|Work> that also allows you to force a version for a library
12:27:23  <planetmaker> if NML needs that: please provide patch(es)
12:27:31  <planetmaker> it could actually use that well, I think
12:27:46  <planetmaker> it has something with buildout. But not sure in what shape it is...
12:28:02  <planetmaker> adding something to faciliate easier install is on my list... but... not exactly high up
12:28:20  <planetmaker> my list is anyway longer than I could do in my life :D
12:28:29  <Ristovski> planetmaker: might be bug in Makefile? "/bin/bash: -m: command not found"
12:28:59  <planetmaker> maybe... I guess it's a missing dep, though
12:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> sadly, lawmakers often leave the part of "what is commercial" open for the judges to decide
12:29:12  <planetmaker> you have grfcodec installed, Ristovski ?
12:29:20  <planetmaker> you need that, too. For the md5sums
12:29:32  <planetmaker> (rather the associated grfid)
12:29:40  <Ristovski> planetmaker: How am I supposed to "sudo make install" when it tried to run mercurial as root
12:29:48  <Ristovski> >inb4 "not trusting untrusted user"
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12:29:59  <planetmaker> err, what?
12:30:17  <Ristovski> planetmaker: if i run sudo make install in opengfx
12:30:25  <Ristovski> it spits out "not trusting file /home/rafael/opengfx/.hg/hgrc from untrusted user rafael, group rafael"
12:30:27  <planetmaker> you first ran make?
12:30:31  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yes?
12:30:38  <planetmaker> hm :-)
12:30:40  <Ristovski> "For security reasons, Mercurial only trusts hgrc files owned by the user running Mercurial. Settings from untrusted files will generally be ignored."
12:30:48  <planetmaker> then install is broken
12:30:53  <planetmaker> I guess I didn't test that in ages
12:30:59  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yup
12:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i guess it's the part that gets the revision?
12:31:32  <planetmaker> make a symlink from ~/.openttd/baseset /path/to/opengfx-dev
12:31:51  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Ugly hacks, but ok
12:32:19  <planetmaker> well, if you want to toy with it, it might be hack, yes. But... easier to update really
12:33:06  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, what?
12:33:31  <planetmaker> the revision thing for getting version? Well, yes. But for install it should not be needed. And for builds from tar ball neither
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12:36:45  <Ristovski> "HG             ?= $(shell hg st >/dev/null 2>/dev/null && which hg 2>/dev/null)
12:36:45  <Ristovski> RE_FILES_NO_SRC_BUNDLE = ^.devzone|^.hg"
12:36:53  <planetmaker> ah, hm, I guess I know where that comes from... all the variables are initialized also when not used
12:36:55  <Ristovski> planetmaker: That?
12:37:11  <planetmaker> one of them
12:37:19  <planetmaker> but the latter... no
12:37:43  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I peek'd at Makefile, only occurance of HG that has some command
12:37:56  <planetmaker> Ristovski, look for $(HG)
12:38:12  <planetmaker> there's many
12:38:43  <Ristovski> yup
12:38:44  <Ristovski> true
12:39:44  <planetmaker> without configure script I can't really get rid of them in a sane way
12:40:27  <Ristovski> Make one then :D
12:41:03  <planetmaker> I thought about that often. I didn't yet find enough gain in that
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12:48:55  <Ristovski> planetmaker: or you can, then ./configure, and as alternative make cmake :D
12:49:13  <Ristovski> or scons, because lets make everything hard
12:49:19  <planetmaker> I could do many things
12:49:23  <planetmaker> Doesn't mean I will ;-)
12:49:34  <Ristovski> :P
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13:08:27  <DanMacK> Morning all
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13:27:40  <Belugas> hello
13:28:36  <V453000> hy
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13:29:58  <Belugas> sir Beer!
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13:31:17  <planetmaker> V453000, do you have a sprite which shows all (or most) of your cargos without being loaded on a vehicle?
13:31:44  <planetmaker> *spritesheet
13:31:46  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
13:32:35  <V453000> partially pm
13:33:13  <V453000> e.g. each wagon spritesheet has the wagons, some spritesheets even have cargoes aside
13:33:14  <planetmaker> I'm just looking for some nice ideas which could show cargo in general... and I'm too lazy to re-invent the wheel :D
13:33:19  <planetmaker> ah
13:33:34  <V453000> for the latest ships I have .psds with cargo layer
13:33:34  <planetmaker> and it needs to fit on 20x20 px just to get the idea :-)
13:33:41  <planetmaker> ah, that'll be helpful
13:33:50  <planetmaker> got a link? in the nuts repo?
13:34:00  <V453000> no, it isnt there
13:34:23  <planetmaker> I was thinking of using one of the usual 'cargo crates'. But maybe there's something nicer  :-)
13:34:35  <V453000> I can upload it when I get home, but iz large
13:35:06  <V453000> might export it for you just as a png for show
13:35:09  <planetmaker> no rush and no worries, I can handle that
13:35:26  <planetmaker> <-- basically I'm thinking about buttons for that
13:35:27  <V453000> but yeah, will do :) remind me if I dont
13:36:00  <V453000> isss that a correct link?
13:36:00  <planetmaker>
13:36:43  <Belugas> salut planetmaker :)
13:37:23  <V453000> idontgetit pm :|
13:37:29  <Xaroth|Work> o/ Belugas
13:39:28  <planetmaker> called "improved order window"
13:39:46  <planetmaker> removing the need for the many drop-downs, etc
13:40:31  <V453000> oh, showing cargo in general
13:40:31  <V453000> I see
13:40:37  <V453000> and you need icons for those things
13:41:23  <V453000> but yeah a clicky button order window would not just be nice as there would not be the dropdown, but mainly because the order list would get so much more visible what is where
13:42:34  <planetmaker> well, not so much cargo, but the different orders. Like unload / load / transfer / (yes, maybe refit to cargo would work, but that's then the actual cargo icon)
13:43:20  <planetmaker> my idea is to have unload like a cargo moved down (arrow). transfer like cargo with arrow through... well. I need to draw that :-)
13:43:53  <V453000> when I was making (large) icons for junctionary, I did a black wagon with arrow out of it / into it
13:44:06  <V453000> perhaps something like a small black box imitating wagon with some arrow like that would work nicely
13:45:02  <V453000>
13:47:29  <planetmaker> maybe. I need to experiment a bit
13:47:59  <V453000> say if you needed a hand :)
13:52:30  <planetmaker> well. It needs button for a)unload if accepted b)unload also if not accepted (=transfer) c)load d)full load
13:53:07  <planetmaker> and e)refit to most waiting cargo
13:54:34  <V453000> omfg e) :)
13:57:05  <V453000> b) needs two?
13:57:09  <V453000> unload vs transfer
13:57:33  <planetmaker> I don't think so. As forced unload is the same as a) and b) combined
13:58:15  <V453000> hm
13:58:20  <V453000> will consider things
13:58:37  <V453000> quite wtf things to express in an image tbh :P
13:58:39  <V453000> cya for now
13:59:25  <planetmaker> yeah. And bye :-)
13:59:57  <planetmaker> could be simple text buttons. But that uses more screen real estate
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14:23:45  <planetmaker> Deliver, Unload, Load, Full load, (Refit) available
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15:00:07  <roboboy> gnight peoples
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15:13:53  <DanMacK> Hey all
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17:21:33  <V453000> planetmaker:
17:38:12  <frosch123> glass ships?
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17:42:15  <DanMacK> Hey V, is NUTS on BaNaNaS?
17:45:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25806 trunk/src/lang/japanese.txt (2013-10-02 17:45:11 UTC)
17:45:20  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21  <DorpsGek> japanese - 1 changes by guppy
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18:02:23  <V453000> of course it is DorpsGek
18:02:25  <V453000> DanMacK:
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18:17:20  <AndreasB> bf4 beta :D 1min45 sek left @27 MB/s
18:17:34  <AndreasB> sec
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18:18:32  <andythenorth_> o/
18:18:57  <andythenorth_> DanMacK: hi hi
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18:19:34  <Wolf01> hello :D
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18:22:50  <Alberth> hi
18:26:31  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently no nml coder ever had the need to read any ttdpatch flag
18:27:59  <Alberth> or they just used the ones common with OpenTTD ?
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18:34:18  <frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: that page lists a bunch of them
18:37:34  <Eddi|zuHause> then i didn't find those in the nml source
18:38:04  <frosch123> now you can grep with the name :p
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18:48:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but that page lists a "ttdpatch_flags" variable that is certainly nonexisting
18:48:56  <frosch123> yup, quite sure about that as well
18:49:19  <frosch123> but it has dynamic_engines and stuff
18:52:22  <frosch123> ttdpatch_flags would be a 128 bit variable or some nonsense like that
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19:21:07  <andythenorth> DanMacK: o/
19:30:54  <arand__> Is there any mod out there that balances planes so that they are not so much easy money as they tend to be?
19:31:07  <andythenorth> hmm
19:31:08  <arand__> Or any settings recommendations?
19:31:18  <andythenorth> turn down plane speed, use maintenance costs
19:31:26  <andythenorth> or try AV8 grf
19:31:50  <andythenorth> (AV8 has it's own ideas about speed and maintenance, so do one or the other)
19:32:04  <andythenorth> or use base cost mod grf and increase plane running costs
19:38:02  <arand__> Ah, looks like some good options, thanks. Hoping to make our games less of a plane fest :)
19:41:47  <Alberth> set max number of planes to 0 :)
19:42:01  <V453000> ^
19:42:11  <andythenorth> wait for V453000 to do planes :P
19:42:20  <V453000> yeah you can wait for that
19:42:29  <Alberth> you may never play a game then :)
19:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> rail-planes? :p
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21:02:10  * Zuu counts to 2208 API symbols in the GS API. (methods + enum constants)
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21:29:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25807 extra/musa/ (2013-10-02 21:29:36 UTC)
21:29:44  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix: Enforce 'int' type of uniqueid, in case of 'long' being returned by swap(reader.read_dword())
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21:44:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25808 /trunk/src/script/api (game/game_company.hpp.sq script_company.hpp) (2013-10-02 21:44:31 UTC)
21:44:38  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25788): [Script] INVALID_EXPENSES should be called EXPENSES_INVALID in the script API
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21:47:17  <frosch123> night
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22:15:13  <Wolf01> ìnight
22:15:17  <Wolf01> *'night
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