Log for #openttd on 24th November 2013:
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02:16:57  <Supercheese> Ahh, thanksgiving break is here, now I'll have time to work on grfs
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03:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there are no thanksgiving breaks where i'm from
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03:39:47  <Supercheese> it does seem to be a rather American holiday
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06:42:39  <andythenorth> o/
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06:54:49  <Supercheese> hey ho
07:05:47  <alluke> mornin
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07:53:57  * andythenorth wonders if there's a way to provide the 'game demands routes' aspect of YACD via a hack on subsidies
07:54:01  <andythenorth> or some kind of latent routes
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07:55:48  <andythenorth> like a shadow link graph of unconnected nodes, which some portion of cargo is assigned to
07:57:34  <Supercheese> 'night
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07:57:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. if you can find an efficient algorithm to find "all nodes"
08:02:35  <andythenorth> that's super hard for pax / mail, and simpler for most primary / secondary cargos?
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08:50:44  <planetmaker> moin
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09:30:36  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26080 trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp (2013-11-24 09:30:30 UTC)
09:30:37  <DorpsGek> -Fix: possible out of bounds array access
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09:52:41  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26081 trunk/src/company_base.h (2013-11-24 09:52:35 UTC)
09:52:42  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5815]: memset with virtual functions doesn't quite work. Upon further review CompanyProperties doesn't need to be virtual in the current code base
09:52:59  <LordAro> moin
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09:59:37  <Wolf01> hello
10:04:15  <Alberth> moin
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11:13:01  <juzza1> "Don't use the pink colours like the ones marked "WinAPI" in the Windows palette."
11:13:04  <juzza1> why not?
11:16:11  <scshunt|nospoilers> juzza1: my guess would be that they are loaded from Windows and subject to change
11:21:36  <planetmaker> yeah. from windows 3.1 ;-)
11:23:19  <planetmaker> juzza1, the API colours are not used by OpenTTD. OpenTTD converts every windows (legacy) palette to its internal default (DOS) palette
11:23:25  <planetmaker> the API colours will not be converted
11:24:42  <planetmaker> as for the pink colours in the Default palette: you could use them. But they'll all be pink. And there's no guarantee that their interpretation and way to be displayed will be kept
11:25:22  <juzza1> ok
11:26:01  <juzza1> they were almost a mystery for me, not so much anymore :)
11:26:09  <juzza1> *always
11:26:30  <planetmaker> yeah, they were the colours MSDOS and windows used internally and which were not available to other stuff :-)
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11:35:12  <peter1138> planetmaker, MS DOS didn't...
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11:39:32  <planetmaker> well... why ever then the reserved colours might exist :-)
11:39:50  <planetmaker> maybe those were ms windows 3.1 and the so-called windows palette was for windows 95
11:40:04  <planetmaker> long ago :-)
11:41:16  <planetmaker> skyem123, what is a 4th rail railtype?
11:41:47  <skyem123> what ae you talking about?
11:41:48  <peter1138> Maybe they're just not used.
11:42:20  <planetmaker> skyem123, do you know ?
11:42:25  <skyem123> yes...
11:42:28  <peter1138> You get free reign of the graphics palette under DOS. DOS didn't use graphics modes...
11:42:42  <planetmaker> talking about
11:43:12  <skyem123> ah ok.
11:43:24  <peter1138> 4th rail is, e.g. London Underground.
11:45:17  <skyem123> I used fourth rail in my newGRF because i was thinking of the London Underground.
11:45:23  <planetmaker> ah, so that is not covered by foobar's treatise?
11:46:11  <Qantourisc> Is there an easy way to buy up and then sell company assets ?
11:46:15  <skyem123> 4th rail with catenary doesn't exist.
11:47:33  <peter1138> it could exist with mixed traffic
11:47:47  <peter1138> dunno if it does though
11:48:12  <skyem123> (in the rail scheme)
11:48:24  <peter1138> metropolitan line has mixed traffic, but it's mixed with diesels...
11:49:08  <skyem123> and steam engines. (London Underground 150th Anniversary)
11:49:12  <planetmaker> Suggest a new character to indicate 4-rail with overhead wires?
11:49:22  <planetmaker> and add that to that wiki page, I think
11:49:24  <skyem123> Y?
11:49:41  <planetmaker> why not, yeah
11:49:42  <skyem123> becuase 3rd rail + catenary is Z
11:50:01  <planetmaker> sounds plausible
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11:51:50  <skyem123> so i can just add it to the table?
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11:52:43  <planetmaker> yes. It's a wiki, even when it's a spec wiki :-)
11:53:01  <planetmaker> E.g. george and andy also edit the cargo label pages when needed :-)
11:53:21  <skyem123> ok
11:53:55  * skyem123 updates wiki and his newGRF
11:54:07  <planetmaker> :-)
11:54:36  <skyem123> my newgrf will be the first to support it :-p
11:56:10  <planetmaker> I'm not exactly sure how many vehicle NewGRFs actually support that extensive railtype scheme yet. But in my eyes it makes sense and keeps it reasonably flexible, thus the choice for players
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11:56:36  <skyem123> hmm...
11:57:07  <skyem123> will my newGRF be backwards compatible when i add an new railtype?
11:57:27  <planetmaker> vehicle newgrfs which want to support railtypes reasonably when they define a railtype translation table
11:57:38  <planetmaker> yes, if you add fallback railtypes
11:58:09  <skyem123> i meant with itself.
11:58:22  <planetmaker>
11:58:44  <planetmaker> with itself... if you change the railtype of vehicles rather not
11:59:04  <skyem123> i have 4th rail
11:59:06  <planetmaker> honestly, the backward compatibility of newgrfs with itself is overrated. Just mark it incompatible and don't worry
11:59:20  <planetmaker> it's safe and doesn't hurt in all usual situations
11:59:26  <skyem123> and it will be disabled by defualt.
11:59:36  <planetmaker> hu?
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11:59:58  <skyem123> i have parameters that disable 4th rail. disabled by default
12:00:02  <planetmaker> well, backward compatibility of a newgrf with itself is only important for one case:
12:00:34  <planetmaker> you play a game which uses the old one. delete the old newgrf, download the new. Can you then continue the map with the new version of your newgrf without the map being borked?
12:01:01  <planetmaker> changed railtypes of vehicles would render vehicles broken
12:01:10  <planetmaker> changed meaning of parameters, too
12:01:23  <skyem123> not removing. adding.
12:01:31  <planetmaker> undefining labels used as well.
12:01:39  <planetmaker> defining something additional: that's safe
12:02:04  <planetmaker> but doesn't it mean that you undefine the label you used before?
12:02:32  <skyem123> no. i commented out 4th rail with catenary
12:02:34  <planetmaker> taking a game which enabled your new railtype by means of that parameter? Or is that parameter also new in the new version?
12:02:36  <planetmaker> ah
12:02:39  <planetmaker> then it's safe
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12:03:01  <planetmaker> or at least backward compatible
12:03:06  <skyem123> yey!
12:04:56  <skyem123> i think i know know why the grf crashed the servers
12:05:13  <skyem123> the grf block was after the graphics block.
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12:11:51  <Alberth> sounds like a bug in nml
12:12:33  <planetmaker> yeah, it should catch that and remedy it
12:13:17  <planetmaker> skyem123, btw, the issue you opened at the nml tracker: it's not a grf which I can build; it's missing all graphics
12:13:25  <skyem123> oh...
12:13:33  <zydeco> it seems the changes in r26077 prevent it from opening grfs on osx
12:13:48  <planetmaker> you surely use some source control and could just bundle the whole thing?
12:14:20  <skyem123> i have a odd compiling environment.
12:15:32  <skyem123> do you use windows or linux?
12:16:02  <skyem123> or i could give you the gfx folder...
12:16:19  <planetmaker> what is odd about your environment?
12:16:49  <skyem123> i have windows.
12:16:54  <skyem123> gnuwin32 make
12:17:28  <skyem123> and strange things so i can use echo and del in make.
12:17:42  <planetmaker> I'll figure that out
12:18:16  <skyem123> i can just give you the files after preprocessing...
12:18:32  <Alberth> hmm, after 5 patches, you find out you forgot to add a new file to the first patch :p
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12:18:44  <planetmaker> hehe, Alberth :-)
12:18:56  <planetmaker> Alberth, hg amend might be your friend :-) and subsequent hg evolve :-)
12:19:21  <Alberth> I have qpop and qpush friends :)
12:19:26  <planetmaker> well, will do, skyem123 :-)
12:19:57  <skyem123>
12:20:48  <skyem123> that should work!
12:21:06  <planetmaker> ty
12:22:44  <planetmaker> do you also have cutom_tags.txt? :D
12:22:54  <skyem123> oops.
12:23:39  <skyem123> you get the new custom tags.
12:23:58  <skyem123> doesn't make any difference
12:24:04  <skyem123> redownload!
12:25:05  <frosch123> btw. skyem123: did you really meant to put a mailto address into the bananas "website" entry?
12:25:45  <skyem123> yes...
12:25:56  <skyem123> i have no website.
12:26:07  <skyem123> did i do somthing wrong?
12:26:19  <frosch123> no, but you are the first one to do so :)
12:26:31  <frosch123> usually people put there a link to a forum thread or something
12:26:42  <skyem123> i don't have a fourm thread.
12:27:35  <planetmaker> I believe you should create a public repository for your newgrf ;-)
12:28:03  <skyem123> how?
12:29:15  <planetmaker> :-) Have you ever worked with any kind of version control software, like mercurial, subversion or git?
12:29:25  <skyem123> yes
12:29:28  <skyem123> i use git
12:30:37  <planetmaker> so I assume you know github :)
12:30:48  <planetmaker> alternatively we could also host it on the DevZone
12:31:01  <skyem123> ok.
12:32:03  <skyem123> whitch one is better?
12:32:17  <planetmaker> I'm biased :-P
12:32:42  <skyem123> to what?
12:33:09  <planetmaker> well DevZone:
12:33:20  <andythenorth> does devzone also have git?
12:33:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes. and no.
12:33:42  <skyem123> ?
12:33:50  <planetmaker> repositories no not a problem
12:34:17  <planetmaker> The build service might. As it currently assumes mercurial repositories
12:34:26  <planetmaker> but that's not necessarily linked
12:34:43  <skyem123> is the build system on linux?
12:35:24  <planetmaker> yes
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12:35:38  <skyem123> then it cant compile anyway.
12:35:56  <planetmaker> Makefiles can be adjusted, you know
12:36:39  <skyem123> makefile.devzone makefile.skyem123?
12:36:46  <skyem123> seperate files?
12:36:55  <planetmaker> simply by detecting system
12:37:14  <skyem123> oh
12:37:29  <skyem123> can it check environment varibles?
12:38:05  <planetmaker>
12:38:11  <planetmaker> ^ see there
12:38:52  <planetmaker> yet I'm sure that Makefile will fail on mingw as it hasn't been tested for ages there
12:38:58  <skyem123> that wont work on my build system
12:39:06  <skyem123> i use mcpp
12:39:39  <planetmaker> don't underestimate how modular that makefile is ;-)
12:40:40  <skyem123> how do i make a project?
12:41:58  <planetmaker> usual approach is to register with the DevZone and apply for a project. We can skip the last step and clear details here
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12:42:38  <skyem123> i'm signed in to the devzone
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12:44:02  <skyem123> so what do i do?
12:44:29  <planetmaker> I basically need two pieces of info: project name. And the 'project id' which basically would be the unique URL part / repository path
12:44:55  <planetmaker> and then I need the public part of your ssh key
12:45:03  <skyem123> "skyem123's rails" skyeRail
12:45:56  <planetmaker> mind if I keep it to small letters, skyerail?
12:46:16  <skyem123> ok
12:46:19  <skyem123> skye_rail
12:48:55  <skyem123> ssh key...
12:49:01  <skyem123> whats that?
12:50:56  <planetmaker> it's means to authenticate. Basically see on how to create it. Obviously ignore the upload part - but I'll need that public key they tell you there to upload
12:52:37  <skyem123> should tortiose-git work?
12:52:42  <planetmaker> I assume so
12:52:58  <planetmaker> I've very little experience myself with both, git and tortoiseXXX
12:55:07  <zydeco> Rubidium:
12:56:03  <Rubidium> woopsiedaisy
12:56:04  * skyem123 reinstalls PuTTY
12:56:31  <planetmaker> @ skyem123
12:56:45  <skyem123> thanks
12:56:50  <planetmaker> alternatively for repo view
12:57:47  <Rubidium> zydeco: ... but only when there is no internal path in the tar, right?
12:58:10  <Rubidium> zydeco: that's why I didn't notice it as basically everything I got reachable for OpenTTD is from bananas
12:58:32  <zydeco> it failed for me when loading opensfx from bananas
12:59:11  <Rubidium> hmm... that doesn't use paths? Could be?!?
12:59:28  <zydeco> and opengfx too when I removed it
13:00:02  <zydeco> it would happen on anything that doesn't have a prefix
13:00:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26082 trunk/src/fileio.cpp (2013-11-24 13:00:06 UTC)
13:00:14  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5816] (r26077): tar files with more than one file in the root directory would not be read properly (zydeco)
13:00:37  <zydeco> unless it's the first header
13:00:44  <Rubidium> zydeco: next time, if it's a bug and you have a patch, please mark it as a bug instead of patch
13:01:23  <zydeco> oh ok
13:01:28  <Rubidium> besides that, thanks ;)
13:01:45  <zydeco> I wasn't sure about that
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13:05:43  <skyem123> planetmaker, how do i push to the repository?
13:07:36  <planetmaker> that needs the public key installed on our server first. Then git remote add origin ssh://; git push -u origin master
13:07:55  <skyem123> how do i add the public hey?
13:07:57  <skyem123> *key
13:08:21  <planetmaker> give it to me. via irc, via link to a paste service, via link to that file...
13:08:30  <planetmaker> whatever suits you
13:08:42  <planetmaker> sorry, that's not automated yet
13:09:31  <skyem123> sent it to you in private chat.
13:09:50  <planetmaker> k, just saw that. My IRC window was too small to see that :D
13:11:51  <planetmaker> installed. Please try whether you're successful in pushing
13:12:13  <skyem123> fatal: '/skye_rail' does not appear to be a git repository
13:12:13  <skyem123> fatal: Could not read from remote repository.
13:13:03  <planetmaker> strange. The push seems to have been successful
13:13:37  <skyem123> SSH://
13:13:40  <skyem123> works
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13:14:57  <Alberth> ~/hg ?
13:15:09  <planetmaker> that looks quite strange
13:15:16  <skyem123> SSH://
13:15:17  <planetmaker> not ~hg/
13:15:18  <skyem123> that
13:15:21  <planetmaker> ah
13:15:30  <skyem123> mistype!
13:15:31  <planetmaker> you scared me
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13:15:44  <skyem123> sorry
13:16:25  <planetmaker> yeah, maybe gits wants its paths differently. It's the first git repo on our server now :-P
13:16:46  <skyem123> i'm doing a lot of firsts!
13:16:58  <planetmaker> :-)
13:17:15  <planetmaker> not a bad thing usually
13:17:51  <skyem123> first to use 4th rail with catenary, first to use a mailto: address, first to use a git repo on
13:19:44  <planetmaker> I can imagine a lot of worse 'firsts' ;-)
13:21:21  <frosch123> first to not put "grf { }" at the top of the nml file :p
13:21:56  <planetmaker> probably yeah :P
13:22:04  <zydeco> oh so it doesn't have to say grf?
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13:22:14  <skyem123> that still is a bug in NMLC
13:22:26  <planetmaker> could be a bug in the documentation, too ;-)
13:22:38  <Qantourisc> how do you turn of ufo ?
13:22:48  <planetmaker> disable disasters, Qantourisc
13:23:02  <Qantourisc> thx
13:30:30  <skyem123> how does the openttdcoop build service work?
13:31:57  <planetmaker> @ skyem123
13:32:11  <planetmaker> basically: it needs a Makefile with the described targets. And setting up the project
13:32:18  <planetmaker> with the CF
13:33:10  <skyem123> i need to set up my make file environment detection.
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14:15:40  <andythenorth> I have to do railtype support for Iron Horse :(
14:15:55  <andythenorth> this does not fill me with enthusiasm
14:16:04  <planetmaker> andythenorth, that's easy... copy the railtype file I linked earlier and slightly adjust it
14:16:18  <andythenorth> :)
14:16:22  <andythenorth> I'll have to learn the spec first
14:16:34  <andythenorth> I never understand anything until I understand it :(
14:17:04  <Xaroth|Work> isnt' that always the case?
14:18:04  <planetmaker> all you need to do is basically: think about a priority list of railtypes for your vehicles, down from the most specialised one (preferred) to RAIL/ELRL (least preferred)
14:18:05  <planetmaker> done
14:19:55  <andythenorth> ok, so it cascades, most specific preference first
14:20:01  <planetmaker> yes
14:20:36  <planetmaker> each preference-cascade gets its own name within your vehicle grf. That name is used as pseudo-railtype
14:20:39  <planetmaker> for your vehicles
14:20:59  <planetmaker> that itself is (and must be) meaningless outside your grf
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14:26:52  <andythenorth> ho ho what fun
14:26:54  <andythenorth> so many labels
14:27:00  <andythenorth> but we had that conversation last time :)
14:28:43  <andythenorth> ok, so the table contains mappings
14:28:57  <andythenorth> in that case, how hard can this be? :P
14:28:57  <planetmaker> yup. railtype translation table
14:29:33  <planetmaker> not hard. tedious
14:29:35  * andythenorth will now reveal poor understanding of logic
14:29:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26083 /trunk/src (station_gui.cpp station_gui.h) (2013-11-24 14:29:32 UTC)
14:29:40  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: pass the CommandContainer for the station joiner around using a reference instead of by-value
14:29:43  <andythenorth> so take the case of metro trains
14:29:52  <andythenorth> I want them to *only* use Metro track, if available
14:30:00  <andythenorth> and fallback to ELRL if no metro
14:30:18  <planetmaker> METRO: [MTRO, ELRL]
14:30:20  <andythenorth> (this may be a bad idea for confusing players, but let's assume not)
14:30:30  <planetmaker> and use railtype 'METRO' for that vehicle
14:30:33  <LordAro> Rubidium: you've been busy this weekend :)
14:30:39  <planetmaker> and the first quoted line within the RTT
14:30:58  <andythenorth> and if my game happens to contain both MTRO and ELRL, the vehicle will run on MTRO only, or both?
14:31:05  <planetmaker> it doesn't mean it'll run on both, MTRO and ELRL if available. Only the most preferential
14:31:10  <andythenorth> I guess I'm asking about compatibility vs. exclusion
14:31:23  <planetmaker> compabibility is determined by the actual NewGRF defining the most-preferred, available railtype
14:31:26  <andythenorth> ok
14:31:41  <andythenorth> so I can delegate that
14:31:46  <planetmaker> NML's RTT bascially resolves to a chain of action6
14:31:53  <planetmaker> and action7/9
14:32:18  <planetmaker> so the vehicle has only one railtype - depending on available railtypes. Compatibility is for the railtype to define
14:32:30  <andythenorth> ok thanks
14:33:04  <Rubidium> LordAro: yeah... holiday sprint season ;)
14:33:10  <LordAro> :)
14:33:31  <Rubidium> or rather... just not having done lots of coding for $JOB lately
14:34:20  <LordAro> :(
14:34:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26084 trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp (2013-11-24 14:34:33 UTC)
14:34:40  <DorpsGek> -Fix: don't allow executing the palette toggling code when it's not editable
14:35:27  <andythenorth> hmm
14:35:31  <andythenorth> MTRO is not used by Metro
14:35:32  <andythenorth> :P
14:35:59  <Qantourisc> how to prevent trains from reversing ?
14:36:02  <Rubidium> and being mostly finished with moving house increases the amount of time that can be spent on frivolous things such as openttd
14:36:23  <LordAro> :)
14:36:28  <LordAro> frivolous? :O
14:36:32  <Qantourisc> smaller maps ?
14:36:40  <Qantourisc> (well routes)
14:37:19  <Qantourisc> ok the train is trying to ride off the rails ..
14:38:22  <Rubidium> Qantourisc: depends on the reason why they are reversing; could be a setting, or something broken in the network (signal, electrification)
14:38:28  <Qantourisc> ow rails wasn't electrifiled
14:41:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26085 /trunk/src (27 files) (2013-11-24 14:41:19 UTC)
14:41:25  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Pass ResolverObjects as reference instead of pointer since they are never NULL.
14:46:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26086 /trunk/src (15 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-24 14:46:26 UTC)
14:46:32  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: use AutoDeleteSmallVector instead std::list for dropdowns
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14:49:57  <LordAro> why the hate for the STL?
14:50:07  <LordAro> or, what's the difference?
14:50:15  <Qantourisc> stl:: ? or a differnt stl ?
14:50:31  <frosch123> stl::vector != boost::ptr_vector
14:50:58  <LordAro> *std::
14:51:06  <frosch123> yeah, something looked wrong :p
14:51:12  <frosch123> but could not figure out out
14:51:34  <LordAro> oh, is AutoDeleeteSmallVector an implementation of boost::ptr_vector?
14:51:51  <frosch123> if you ignore the details
14:51:54  <frosch123> then yes :p
14:51:56  <LordAro> :)
14:52:45  <LordAro> you could just use std::list<std::[shared|unique]_ptr<Type>> :p
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14:53:04  <frosch123> yeah, and decrease the max train count to 50
14:53:23  <planetmaker> :D so much bloat there?
14:53:28  <LordAro> slight difference in outcome ;)
14:54:46  <LordAro> planetmaker: ?
14:55:28  <frosch123> well, unique_ptr could actually work
14:55:47  <LordAro> but no c++11 allowed yet, i guess :L
14:58:27  <LordAro> despite there being a 'hidden' static_assert() in stdafx.h ;)
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15:02:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26087 trunk/src/fileio.cpp (2013-11-24 15:02:05 UTC)
15:02:12  <DorpsGek> -Fix: file descriptor leak when finding a corrupt tar
15:02:30  <andythenorth> hmm
15:02:40  <andythenorth> implementing electro-diesel engine (bi-mode)
15:02:42  <andythenorth> interesting
15:04:10  <Rubidium> those would be interesting on some routes in the NLs
15:04:44  <Rubidium> and it shouldn't be that hard; it's mostly placing a panto on an already diesel-electric train ;)
15:04:56  <andythenorth> so set the railtype to RAIL
15:05:02  <andythenorth> but use cb36 to check for ELRL
15:05:08  <andythenorth> hmm
15:05:16  <andythenorth> is current railtype of the depot available in buy menu? :P
15:05:51  <peter1138> Why?
15:06:15  <frosch123> no, it isn'T
15:06:18  <andythenorth> power varies according to railtype
15:06:38  <andythenorth> I'll work around it
15:06:41  <frosch123> put it in the description
15:06:49  <frosch123> don't surprise the player
15:07:09  <peter1138> Yup, specify both.
15:10:22  <andythenorth> ok
15:13:42  <Qantourisc> are there "better" maglev textures ?
15:14:10  <frosch123> multiple
15:14:33  <Qantourisc> opengfx donwload from ingame ?
15:14:44  <frosch123> there are specific maglev track sets
15:14:47  <frosch123> just search for maglev
15:17:59  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26088 /trunk/src (rail_gui.cpp widgets/dropdown_type.h) (2013-11-24 15:17:53 UTC)
15:18:00  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26086): Windows compilation
15:21:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26089 /trunk/src (fileio.cpp openttd.cpp) (2013-11-24 15:21:38 UTC)
15:21:45  <DorpsGek> -Fix: a number of minor memory leaks
15:21:53  <Qantourisc> Would this change work inj the "background-map" ?
15:25:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26090 trunk/src/game/game_text.cpp (2013-11-24 15:25:41 UTC)
15:25:48  <DorpsGek> -Fix: leaking of file descriptor when reading strings for game texts
15:28:48  <Alberth> Qantourisc: you mean in the game playing on startup?  no
15:30:00  <Qantourisc> smolly zbase is ungly :)
15:30:15  <LordAro> :(
15:31:04  <Qantourisc> If I can get 16 other blender peaple, or a lot of time, i'd start on it :)
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15:31:36  <planetmaker> Qantourisc, it doesn't need 16 more people. It needs to acually *start*
15:31:48  <planetmaker> Every journey starts with a first step
15:31:54  <Qantourisc> ow hmmm
15:31:57  <planetmaker> And not with trying to gather a whole climbing party
15:32:27  <Qantourisc> well ... imo, for 32 bit you either need good 2D drawing artists, or peaple with a 3D tool to render it ...
15:32:53  <planetmaker> yes. Sure. For instance blender like you said.
15:33:06  <planetmaker> But if you're one of the blender people you could already make a start
15:33:12  <planetmaker> Or rather the 2nd step. zBase is a first
15:33:26  <Qantourisc> howmany sprites we talking about btw ? :)
15:33:54  <planetmaker> a whole base set is around 10k
15:34:08  <planetmaker> That's a lot. But as said: every start is small
15:34:19  <Qantourisc> 10k ?
15:34:21  <planetmaker> one can start with a house. Or with a certain ground type
15:34:29  <Qantourisc> howmany of those are "duplicate" ?
15:35:04  <Qantourisc> hmmm not a lot it seems :p
15:35:08  <planetmaker> what's your definition of 'duplicate'? Each looks different. But many are ground tiles, different rails and roads
15:35:29  <Taede> or different views of the same vehicle
15:35:31  <Qantourisc> well if you do it in 3D, you can auto-rotate-and-render so it's 2.5k the :p
15:35:53  <planetmaker> yes... somewhat
15:37:11  <Qantourisc> sounds like fun :p, but i'll probably end up making like 128 max....
15:37:29  <planetmaker> if you checkout zBase's sources, you'll see and find that it actually uses that kind of technique
15:40:28  <planetmaker> and especially its (sub-)repo
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15:40:58  <Superuser>
15:42:24  <Qantourisc> hmm it's blender !
15:42:41  <planetmaker> yes, it is
15:43:03  * Qantourisc checks it, but fears the contents :)
15:46:54  <LordAro> Qantourisc: also note that zBase was drawn entirely by 1 person, over a period of about 3-6 months ;)
15:47:05  <Qantourisc> :)
15:47:22  <Qantourisc> nice work on that timespawn
15:47:27  <Qantourisc> but I directly something weird
15:47:38  <LordAro> zephyris is unmatched in drawing speed/skill
15:47:58  <Qantourisc> the max-res-render is not rendered at aliased edges
15:48:04  <Qantourisc> while rescale at first sight would ?
15:49:36  <Qantourisc> ow my bad
15:49:47  <Qantourisc> the default view was just on this mode :)
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15:53:09  * Qantourisc stops looking and releases he has other unfinished projects
15:56:38  * Qantourisc is still confused why the multi-export setting is inside blender :p
15:56:48  <Qantourisc> o well :)
15:57:00  <planetmaker> probably easier scripted?
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15:58:05  <Qantourisc> well it's not the easy part i'm woried about
15:58:15  <Qantourisc> it's the "what if you want to change something ?"
15:58:26  <Qantourisc> like for example use a differnt interpolation scaling method
15:58:32  <Qantourisc> edit each blender file by hand ?
15:59:25  <planetmaker> dunno whether you can apply a setting template to a file with one click (or a few)
15:59:52  <Qantourisc> well you can import the node system iirc, but feels like just hurting yourself :)
15:59:55  <Qantourisc> then again
15:59:56  <planetmaker> Qantourisc, if it's possible to specify those things outside the single blender files: that's likely a good thing
15:59:59  <Qantourisc> windows users don't have bash :)
16:00:26  <Qantourisc> so it would make a lot of sence to do it in blender on windows :)
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16:01:11  <planetmaker> there's also bash for windows ;-)
16:02:15  <Superuser> y'all should just use emacs, which reimplements a lot of gnu tools in elisp
16:02:23  <Superuser> (instead of cygwin)
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16:03:27  <LordAro> urgh, emacs
16:03:40  <Qantourisc> i know but notper default or easy :p
16:04:24  <planetmaker> windows doesn't ship with blender by default either
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16:04:37  <planetmaker> windows ships with basically nothing by default ;-)
16:04:53  <V453000> has internet exploder what else do you need
16:05:12  <Qantourisc> problaby want to add imagemagick to the list of tools :)
16:05:20  <planetmaker> true enough. You get everything else you ever want by simply using that. With or without your consent :-P
16:05:35  <Qantourisc> convert -resize 64 iirc :p 128.png 64.png
16:06:02  <Qantourisc> :d
16:06:07  <planetmaker> :-)
16:06:40  <Qantourisc> yea i see a lot of computer passing by with shit from inet
16:06:51  <Qantourisc> i always wonder if those peaple click on stuff or not to get them
16:07:11  <Jomann> is there any trick to increase production of banks?
16:07:31  <Qantourisc> Jomann: fund another ?
16:07:38  <Qantourisc> Jomann: increase popuplation of town ?
16:07:57  <Jomann> increasing population helps?
16:08:08  <Kjetil> Is there any way of disabeling industrytypes from being generated ?
16:08:43  <Qantourisc> Jomann: don't know sorry
16:09:08  <Alberth> Kjetil: new game -> amount of industries -> funding only ; generate
16:09:37  <Qantourisc> how do you peaple manage to keep motivated to contribute ?
16:09:47  <Alberth> although technically, it generates industries rather than industry types
16:10:15  <Alberth> Qantourisc: depends on the person; for me it's finding out how things work
16:10:15  <LordAro> Qantourisc: good question :)
16:10:32  <Qantourisc> personally i'm to stressed often
16:11:06  <Kjetil> Alberth: then I don't have enough space credits to get any industries :P
16:11:14  <Alberth> Qantourisc: you should make a few changes in your life then
16:11:34  <Qantourisc> or are your lives "ok" enough that you don't have this issue, and have enerefy left ?
16:11:53  <Qantourisc> Alberth: if only depended on me would be done by now, but takes some pushing and time
16:12:17  <Alberth> Kjetil:  set the amount of indsustries ; do not press generate ; go to the scenario editor ; make yourself a bunch of industries ; save ; play scenario
16:12:50  <Kjetil> hm. ok
16:13:15  <Alberth> Qantourisc: messing with code and stuff is the relax activity :)
16:13:37  <Qantourisc> can also be fustrating
16:13:41  <Qantourisc> depends on the amount of "pressure"
16:13:54  <Alberth> you are the one making pressure
16:14:04  <Alberth> which you shouldn't do :)
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16:14:26  <Alberth> time is irrelevant here
16:14:43  <Alberth> unlike the real world :p
16:15:08  <LordAro> :D
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16:21:25  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26091 trunk/src/openttd.cpp (2013-11-24 16:21:19 UTC)
16:21:26  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26089): double frees... woospie
16:23:01  <Qantourisc> double free ? smells like c
16:24:16  <LordAro> it does, unfortunately :L
16:24:40  <LordAro> OTTD was originally written in C, and still retains quite a few C-like features
16:26:12  <andythenorth> 32bpp should be done by rendering from a voxel generator :P
16:26:21  <andythenorth> it would be like drawing pixels, only more dimensions :P
16:26:32  <frosch123> cubicle constructor :p
16:26:37  <andythenorth> and would retain the TTD feel, instead of feeling like cheap, amateur CGI
16:26:59  <andythenorth> there should be a palette of textures for it, limited to say 256 or so :P
16:27:09  <andythenorth> constraints = useful
16:27:40  <andythenorth> voxel games are actually appealing to look at, most mesh stuff is kind of ugly, or sacharine, or uncanny valley
16:28:19  <planetmaker> zbase might actually be in that exact valley
16:29:31  <Qantourisc> it feels like amateur becaus eit probalby is  :) good lookin is hard
16:29:49  <andythenorth> just render everything in minecraft?
16:29:52  <andythenorth> might work
16:30:12  <andythenorth> or in LDraw
16:33:01  <Qantourisc> what you need is good textures + a set of materials
16:33:12  <planetmaker> he's not an artist by education, yes
16:33:33  <Qantourisc> well good news you don't learn that at school :)
16:33:36  <Qantourisc> well helps :)
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16:45:47  <planetmaker> well, there are art schools. But art is probably not a requirement with what he does ;-)
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16:46:10  <planetmaker> he seems to like image processing / generation / stuff like that a lot, though :-)
16:49:14  <Qantourisc> maybe I should try 1 blender ?
16:49:35  <Qantourisc> ow and we need a HRDI texture
16:49:51  <planetmaker> HRDI?
16:49:54  <Qantourisc> yes :)
16:50:06  <Qantourisc>
16:50:29  <Qantourisc> for anything reflective
16:51:45  <planetmaker> I know that as HDR :-)
16:53:11  *** LeandroL [~leandro@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:53:59  <Qantourisc> i is for image :)
16:54:57  <planetmaker> yeah. HDRi instead or HRDi ;-)
16:55:28  <Qantourisc> oeps my bad
16:55:49  <frosch123> high-definition random image?
16:55:55  <Qantourisc> :)
16:55:57  <planetmaker> I'm not exactly sure how hdr helps though
16:55:58  <Qantourisc> would work
16:56:04  <frosch123> highly-random definition image?
16:56:26  <planetmaker> frosch123, high dynamic range. Thus more than 8 bit per channel
16:56:35  <frosch123> ah, range
16:58:36  <planetmaker> <-- like composed of three different exposures. And logarithmically added
16:59:14  <planetmaker> difficult to convey without reduction to 8 bit again :-)
17:00:23  <frosch123> is that something the camera does on its own?
17:00:29  <planetmaker> no
17:00:34  <frosch123> or do you need a tripod and switch the camera settings?
17:00:36  <planetmaker> at least not mine
17:00:46  <planetmaker> yes, a tripod helps tremendously :-)
17:00:55  <Qantourisc>
17:00:59  <planetmaker> tripod + exposure sequence
17:01:01  <Qantourisc> that show hdri in "action" :)
17:02:15  <frosch123> Qantourisc: pm is my reference-photographer :p
17:02:37  <frosch123> he is not my reference-astronomer though
17:02:44  <planetmaker> :-(
17:02:54  <frosch123> my brother does that :p
17:02:58  <Qantourisc> frosch123: some camares do have a multiple-exposure feature
17:03:00  <planetmaker> he :-)
17:03:15  <Qantourisc> frosch123: but not all, and it assumes "still" images
17:05:32  <planetmaker> <-- also HDR :-P
17:05:40  <planetmaker> 3*30 minutes exposure :D
17:05:52  <planetmaker> but still not nice :-(
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17:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "also HDR" is a weird phrase, because it means something entirely unrelated if you read it in german :p
17:12:21  <planetmaker> hm... what does mean? :-O
17:13:40  <frosch123> lotr maybe
17:13:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
17:13:56  <frosch123> but it would be HdR
17:14:21  <frosch123> if you start with capticalisation, you need to do it right :p
17:14:40  <planetmaker> doh. I should have known that one :-)
17:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but then it would be LotR
17:14:56  <frosch123> all lower case is valid in irc
17:15:16  <frosch123> all upper case is also valid, but results in kick :p
17:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
17:16:08  <frosch123> planetmaker: is that with or without telescope?
17:16:48  <planetmaker> that's with an 8" telescope f/8
17:17:26  <frosch123> hmm, i might have no adjust my astronomer reference then
17:17:36  <planetmaker> sadly the electronics are broken and spare parts non-existant even at the manufacturer :-(
17:17:38  <frosch123> iirc my brother did not manage to photograph through his telescope
17:18:17  <planetmaker> and without those, no star tracking, no photography
17:18:20  <frosch123> what kind of electrioncs?
17:18:30  <frosch123> oh, star tracking
17:18:33  <planetmaker> basically the main board of the telescope
17:19:09  <frosch123> can't you just stop the earth?
17:19:26  <planetmaker> so it doesn't allow positioning anymore properly etc. yeah. I could. I'm scared of side-effects, though
17:19:29  <planetmaker> mainly on wheather
17:19:36  <planetmaker> weather
17:20:13  <planetmaker> the change would not be backward-compatible. Loading old savegames then would fail ;-)
17:20:16  <frosch123> i've heard the earth rotation has been mainly driven by musicians rolling over in their graves in the past years
17:20:34  <planetmaker> maybe. But how could I stop them doing so?
17:20:53  <planetmaker> It's not like I can change contemporary music :P
17:20:58  <frosch123> remove the atmosphere
17:21:00  <frosch123> no air, no sound
17:22:35  <planetmaker> hm... that's bad for photography again. Air kinda makes for the rather smooth intensity variations between shadow and sun light
17:22:51  <frosch123> :p
17:22:51  <planetmaker> w/o atmosphere it's either sun light or pitch dark
17:23:15  <planetmaker> :-)
17:23:27  <frosch123> does it need air for dust?
17:23:38  <planetmaker> no. The moon is my proof
17:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> so it doesn't allow positioning anymore properly etc. yeah. I could. I'm scared of side-effects, though <-- you just need two servo elements and a PLC?
17:23:52  <planetmaker> Or the suits of the astronauts who walked there
17:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause> or possibly 3
17:25:28  <planetmaker> quite a lot of logic to programme :-)
17:26:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just 3 "simple" formulas, input is position, direction and time, output is 3 angles
17:27:05  <planetmaker> not exactly. that's the principle, yes. But this telescope allows to add corrections for a CCD, to allow tracking in sub-pixel accuracy when using an appropriate camera
17:27:17  <planetmaker> so you need to allow for feedback
17:27:17  <Superuser> programme is a noun. Program is the verb
17:27:19  <Superuser> planetmaker, ^
17:28:18  <planetmaker> and you still haven't then taught how to adjust to latitude
17:29:21  <planetmaker> there's one guy who can somewhat put a replacement system into telescopes. But 1000€ is also a lot of money
17:43:58  <Qantourisc> and programmed is the victem :)
17:44:19  <Qantourisc> wait no
17:44:24  <Qantourisc> programme is also the victem
17:46:06  <andythenorth> these 3-part 'vehicles are made of articulated vehicles' make my brain hurt sometimes
17:46:07  <andythenorth> nvm
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17:47:00  <frosch123> don't try to get rid of it
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18:02:33  <chester_> andythenorth: hi, a year ago we were discussing js and python, remember?
18:04:11  <chester_> i said i'll find a job with js and i have half year exp with it and can say its not as bad as you said
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19:24:04  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: i'm sure we have over two dozen $language vs. $language discussions per year. they bear very little meaning
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19:28:31  <Rubidium> that jsharp still exists
19:30:54  <chester_> Eddi, i took part only in one, we had no conclusions then
19:46:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26092 /trunk/src (command.cpp script/api/script_object.cpp) (2013-11-24 19:46:16 UTC)
19:46:23  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5818]: prevent scripts from crashing OpenTTD when they send text with command codes to user editable texts such as sign and station names
19:53:41  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26093 trunk/src/script/api/script_object.cpp (2013-11-24 19:53:35 UTC)
19:53:42  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26092): compilation error
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19:57:32  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r26094 /branches/1.3 (19 files in 5 dirs) (2013-11-24 19:57:23 UTC)
19:57:33  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
19:57:34  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: [Script] Prevent scripts from crashing OpenTTD when they send text with command codes to user editable texts such as sign and station names [FS#5818] (r26093, r26092)
19:57:35  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Occasional hanging when client joins [FS#5811] (r26043)
19:57:36  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Multi line text was handled incorrectly causing glitches [FS#5809] (r26037, r26036)
19:57:37  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
19:59:57  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26095 /branches/1.3 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2013-11-24 19:59:51 UTC)
19:59:58  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Update: documentation
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20:03:01  <LordAro> another release?
20:03:09  <LordAro> it's only been a week
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20:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> where did you read "release"?
20:05:09  <LordAro> well, the documentation has dates
20:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody ever reads the documentation :p
20:06:15  <LordAro> :p
20:06:22  <LordAro> including you :p
20:06:23  <Xaroth|Work> for once I'd have to agree with Eddi|zuHause
20:07:26  <Xaroth|Work> how's rct going, Aro?
20:07:38  <LordAro> not bad
20:07:41  <LordAro> making progress
20:07:53  <LordAro> we can display coaster tracks now :)
20:08:02  <Xaroth|Work> \o/
20:08:34  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26096 /tags/1.3.3-RC2 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-24 20:08:28 UTC)
20:08:35  <DorpsGek> -Release: 1.3.3-RC2
20:08:43  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: there: ^ :p
20:09:59  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: it's still "just" a release candidate, so you can expect another "release" fairly soon anyway
20:10:28  <LordAro> oh i know, but i still think a week between release candidates is quite quick
20:10:36  <LordAro> as per usual, anyway
20:10:47  <Xaroth|Work> meh
20:10:54  <Xaroth|Work> rubi has been doing a looot of commits the past few days
20:10:59  <LordAro> ^
20:12:04  <LordAro> wiki updated :)
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20:25:55  <andythenorth> chester_: there are plenty of good js jobs, js is just a language I like to disparage
20:26:04  <andythenorth> I used to write it when it was broken
20:26:11  <andythenorth> that was boring
20:26:25  <andythenorth> I got burnt, I've maintained a small level of hatred ever since :)
20:26:47  <andythenorth> otherwise it's just a language ;)
20:27:02  <tomlane> I am having trouble getting the soundtrack to play on OS X, I have tried two different sound packs so I am guessing it is a system issue of some sort. I have freepats and timidity installed via homebrew. Any ideas?
20:31:55  <michi_cc> OS X isn't using timidity. There used to be a MIDI/Core Audio control panel somewhere (no idea if it is still there in current OS versions), maybe a wrong output device is activated.
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20:32:31  <tomlane> michi_cc, I have sound effects but no music
20:32:48  <planetmaker> then, how did you install the music sets?
20:33:27  <michi_cc> Check the OTTD jukebox if music is in fact running and if not, hit play.
20:34:54  <planetmaker> did you select the music set in the game options?
20:35:47  <chester_> ive been full-time js programmer for half a year, its not just a language, its front-end language, 'front' meaning modern, from which other languages borrow
20:35:59  <tomlane> *doh* too used to it autoplaying, thanks for the help ><
20:39:06  <frosch123> chester_: interesting, can you name a thing from js from the past 10 years, that other languages borrowed?
20:39:39  <andythenorth> ask doug crockford
20:39:50  <andythenorth> he would probably know
20:41:54  <andythenorth> some people even *like* javascript, which is odd
20:41:56  <andythenorth> but anyway
20:42:55  <andythenorth> hmm
20:43:04  <andythenorth> what's a sensible default for a switch checking current_railtype ?
20:43:06  <chester_> i was not very clear maybe, there are things from other languages, like lisp, which were realized in js before java or c++, i mean anonymous functions and those functional things
20:43:27  <andythenorth> is that the same as a lambda?
20:43:41  <frosch123> sounds like
20:43:56  <chester_> cpp has lambdas?
20:44:05  <andythenorth> chester_: I'm not arguing against you :)
20:44:17  * andythenorth is just dicking around
20:45:17  <frosch123> the wiki article rather suggests js borrowing stuff from python :p
20:45:44  <frosch123> but well, all interpreted languages are the same, once they head for professional usage
20:46:03  <chester_> guido ripped reduce afaik, and wanted to slay map and other things also
20:46:36  <andythenorth> hmm, this bi-mode engine works
20:46:49  <andythenorth> 5000hp on electric, 1250hp otherwise
20:47:04  <andythenorth> rather easy, once I'd figured out how my own framework works :x
20:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i rather like map
20:47:33  <andythenorth> now I probably get stoned with '10 things you wish you had known about railtype compatibilty' :(
20:47:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so what about multi-power tracksets?
20:47:51  <andythenorth> the railtypes spec makes sense, but the implementations baffle me
20:48:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: dunno, I think we'll find out empirically
20:48:18  <andythenorth> people report oddness, I might try and fix it
20:48:31  <andythenorth> otherwise, I have fingers in ears, singing la la la la
20:48:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wrote about action6/7/9/D operators checking railtype compatibility somewhere
20:49:07  <Eddi|zuHause> # lalalala
20:49:12  <Eddi|zuHause> # lalalalalala
20:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a weird song
20:49:45  <LordAro> chester_: as of c++11, lambdas are a thing
20:49:47  <andythenorth> now I have it in my head, thanks
20:49:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well YOU brought it up :p
20:50:04  <andythenorth> indeed
20:50:15  <andythenorth> these steam ships would look better with smoke, eh?
20:50:20  * andythenorth changes topic
20:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> loads of languages had lambda before js did
20:54:24  <Rubidium> thousands of years before js ;)
20:55:22  <chester_> i've seen '((){}[])() is now valid in c++' pic in our cpp department, yes it was added recently
20:57:15  <chester_> or [](){} or ()[]{}
20:57:23  <chester_> something like that
20:58:36  <LordAro> [](){}, methinks
21:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> can't be much less weird than for(;;);
21:00:27  <chester_> this is breakthrough for cpp, when its been for thousands of years in other languages
21:00:56  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you cannot beat '*'
21:01:07  <frosch123> it's by far the worst c construct
21:01:26  <Rubidium> i+++++i
21:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i do believe that is illegal :p
21:02:09  <planetmaker> sure?
21:02:10  <chester_> showd give 2*i + 1
21:02:11  <Eddi|zuHause> (and even if it werent, it would be undefined behaviour)
21:02:19  <frosch123> planetmaker: not an lvalue
21:02:20  <LordAro> int i = 0; i = i+++++i;
21:02:26  <chester_> (i++) + (++i)
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21:02:46  <DanMacK> Hey all
21:02:48  <andythenorth> ohai DanMacK
21:02:54  <frosch123> chester_: no, the lexer is greedy
21:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: it could be 0+1 or 1+1 or 0+2
21:03:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, it's a compile error, "++ expected lvalue"
21:03:26  <LordAro> "lvalue required as increment operand"
21:03:28  <LordAro> yup :)
21:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes
21:03:38  <planetmaker> frosch123, but is it a compiler thing or a language thing?
21:04:23  * Rubidium wonders whether the majority of C is actually undefined behaviour ;)
21:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: even with the parentheses, it's undefined behaviour, since there are two assingments without a sequence point
21:05:19  <glx> and + operator argument evaluation order is implementation dependant IIRC
21:05:26  <frosch123> planetmaker: without the parantheses it is a language thing, with them it is a compiler thing
21:05:38  <planetmaker> :-)
21:06:04  <chester_> would i++  + ++i work? js eats it
21:06:09  <frosch123> hmm, maybe eddi was also in my cert training course
21:06:19  <frosch123> chester_: what are the sequence points of js?
21:06:34  <LordAro> chester_: the fact that js eats it is meaningless - i'm sure php eats it too :p
21:06:38  <frosch123> in any case: it is bad style
21:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i did attend a language lecture a few years ago
21:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: operator evaluation order has actually nothing to do with assignment evaluation order
21:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i++ just means "increment i at some point after you evaluated this operator, and before the next sequence point"
21:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so it could be "evaluate the left operand" (=>0), "assign the right ++" (=>i=1), "evaluate the right operand" (=>1), "assign the left ++" (=>i=1)
21:11:22  <Eddi|zuHause> result of the operation would be 1
21:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> err, the last one should be (=>i=2)
21:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> or it could be "evaluate the left operand" (=>0), "assign the left ++" (=>i=1), "assign the right ++" (=>i=2), "evaluate the right operand" (=>2)
21:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> result of the operation would be 2
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21:20:23  <chester_> never heard of sequence points, Eddi's explanation is clear though, does it mean if its undefined its not valid at all or compiler dependent or what?
21:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it means it's compiler dependent
21:20:39  <planetmaker> the latter
21:21:13  <frosch123> it may also be random, a compiler may compile it differently at various lines
21:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it could be shuffled during optimization
21:21:33  <planetmaker> that's the special form of compiler-dependent :-)
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21:21:59  <frosch123> for certain platforms (maybe ia64), the may even be really random due to parallel execution
21:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> ia64 is not really parallel, it's just 4 instructions compressed into one
21:23:26  <frosch123> i thought it was the platform without hardware sheduler, where the compiler optimised for the pipelines
21:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you might be thinking about early mips
21:24:28  <Eddi|zuHause> where when executing the second operation the results of the first are not yet in
21:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have data dependencies you have to insert a nop
21:25:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not a hardware expert
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21:26:10  <frosch123> <- what a chart :p
21:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well sometimes things just come at the wrong time
21:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if it had come 4 years earlier, that figure might have been accurate
21:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but compared to amd64, ia64 was just too incompatible to the older platforms
21:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and compatibility just outweighs the possibly cleaner architecture
21:29:39  <michi_cc> Anything without delay slots after a branch is lame :) Some DSP-like microcontroller architecture have three or even more.
21:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: you mean things where it discards the results of the operations when it discovers that the branch was taken earlier?
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21:34:00  <michi_cc> No, not discard. A jump on a FPU condition on a TI TMS320..something will modify the IP only after the next three instructions were already fetched. And somebody thought it a nice idea to simply not discard anything already fetched.
21:38:08  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so you mean they are always executed. yes, that is the "simple" architecture
21:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (simple for the hardware, complicated for the compiler)
21:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> how many instructions are fetched depends on your pipeline length
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21:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause> chester_: a sequence point (in c(++)-specs speak is the end of the statement (';') or the comma operator (',') [but not the comma that separates function call arguments]
21:49:03  <frosch123> || and && as well
21:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. i knew i forgot something
21:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd's calculation of the station rating makes heavy use of that
21:51:14  <__ln__> have a look at this disney movie instead, everyone:
21:53:45  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
21:54:00  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: now let them make real faces
21:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> (without mapping them on a real actor's motions)
21:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> || and && are odd anyway, because it's the only place where it specifies evaluation order
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22:11:20  <frosch123> night
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22:54:37  <andythenorth> good night
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23:31:13  <Wolf01> 'night
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