Log for #openttd on 29th December 2013:
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00:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but when did that ever stop anyone :p
00:02:02  <__ln__> umm, "minimal pair" is an important concept in phonetics. :)  but i'm thinking the definition for it that i've learned is either over-simplified, or i've forgotten some details about it.
00:04:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "minimal pair" of length one will screw with your error detection ability
00:05:04  <__ln__> yes, that's true
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02:23:29  <Wolf01> 'night all
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04:16:15  <Flygon> I'm going to run on the assumption here that FRISS doesn't unlock electric lines along similiar parematers to that other one... with the name... that I forgot
04:16:26  <Flygon> The one with the awkward grey rails with the graphical alignment error on some junctions
04:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean nutracks
04:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> generally, rails are unlocked as soon as an engine is available for them, but the track set may specify additional triggers (like other railtype becoming available or simple date)
04:39:50  <Flygon> Yeah, nutracks
04:40:00  <Flygon> Yeah, I'm suspecting FRISS is datelocked
04:40:14  <Flygon> Metro becoming unlocked as soon as I got them surprised me, though
04:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the track set cannot prevent this
04:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it can only make it appear earlier, not later
04:41:19  <Flygon> Hm
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08:00:18  <juzza1> Flygon_: what train newgrf(s) are you using, and what is the year you are expecting the electric rails to appear?
08:00:39  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
08:00:45  <Flygon> 2CC
08:00:58  <Flygon> As in, the 2CC worldwide set
08:01:29  <Flygon> Was expecting the electric stuff to appear largely in sync with how it did with NuTracks
08:01:31  <Flygon> Buuuut, well
08:02:01  <Flygon> Given what I've just figured out, 2CC stuffs out a lot of low speed electric sets early on, and the lowest electric rails in FRISS seems to be 140km/h :p
08:03:14  <Flygon> (as in, the mainline ones)
08:05:27  <juzza1> the electric rails in FRISS are generally introduced from the year 1968, unless an train which requires catenary appears earlier
08:06:45  * Flygon nod, "Understood"
08:07:44  <Flygon> Not as familiar with the history of Finland as I should be, sorry x3
08:07:49  <Flygon> Finnish rail, anyway
08:09:51  <juzza1> i should change the props so that (at least) one electrified branch line is introduced as soon as the electrified mainline is introduced
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08:11:36  <juzza1> should be changed in the next release
08:11:46  <juzza1> *will
08:15:34  <Flygon> I had to brb, sorry
08:15:43  <Flygon> Alright, thanks :)
08:15:50  <Flygon> This's my first FRISS game, that is all
08:16:39  <Flygon> The 90km/h cap on Metro is mildly surprising, though, given a few sets go over that. But, then again, it is a Finnish rail set
08:30:16  <juzza1> A parameter to disable that would make sense, considering speed limit for the best mainline can also be disabled
08:31:32  * Flygon nod
08:40:05  <Flygon> Also, for some reason, the Sand/Gravel and Gravel Base graphics are sharing the... same graphics, obviously. The Sand/Gravel changed to the same as Gravel when Gravel became available (the Sand/Gravel was the same as sand/gravel siding graphics)
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08:44:48  <Flygon> Do note, though. At the start of the game, I accidentally set the GRF's to the wrong palette, and had to fix this later mid-game
08:44:56  <Flygon> Which's, obviously, against guidelines
08:48:29  <peter1138> Which's, huh
08:48:55  <Flygon> My English isn't the best, darnit @_@
08:49:05  <Flygon> All Australians are terrible at English! :D
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08:59:11  <juzza1> yes, some of the railtypes do intentionally look the same, especially in later years. this could be somewhat fixed in a later release by changing the minimap colors for each railtype
09:00:36  <Flygon> The problem is more that a railtype changed appearance, mid-game
09:00:41  <Flygon> Without me doing anything to it
09:01:03  <Flygon> And examination revealed that the railtype looked identical to the one that just got introduced
09:01:22  <Flygon> But it looked different before the new railtype became introduced
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09:04:05  <juzza1> it's supposed to mimic how it actually happened in finland (old ballast/sleepers getting replaced), so again, it's intentional, although i can understand the confusion
09:05:18  <Flygon> Hmm
09:05:20  <Flygon> Interesting
09:06:00  <Flygon> Such things never really happened here. Track was assigned specific class, and ballast application never really changed in the many many years
09:06:35  <Flygon> Let's rephrase that: The visual appearance didn't change. I'm really not used to Scandinavian/European practice. x3
09:07:00  <Flygon> Sorry for my... er... there's gotta be a word for this
09:07:56  <Flygon> I'd say derpiness, but that sounds silly
09:13:00  <juzza1> it has always been a bit weird, starting from the olden times when we adopted broad gauge because finland was a part of russia
09:13:20  <juzza1> but I have to go now ->
09:13:40  <Flygon> We're perpetually in Broad Gauge here :B
09:13:42  <Flygon> Have fun!
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10:25:50  <andythenorth> moin
10:26:05  <Rubidium> moin mr thenorth
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11:58:54  <Alberth> moin
11:59:54  <Flygon> Morning
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12:09:36  <Alberth> o/
12:11:06  <andythenorth> o/
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12:45:00  <Xaroth|Work> o/
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13:47:19  <andythenorth> meh
13:47:32  <andythenorth> trying to figure out how to have less than 4 generations of trucks :P
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14:10:22  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: metaclasses
14:10:25  <Xaroth|Work> whatever it is, metaclasses
14:10:46  <andythenorth> thanks
14:10:50  <andythenorth> I shall keep that in mind
14:12:05  <Xaroth|Work> I think, with a bit (read: crapload) of effort, grfs can be created from pure python code, rather than python => templates => nml => grf
14:13:18  <andythenorth> they can
14:13:43  <andythenorth> try it :D
14:18:34  <Xaroth|Work> meh
14:18:37  <Xaroth|Work> first libopenttd
14:18:42  <Xaroth|Work> then maaaybe something for grfs
14:19:03  <Xaroth|Work> mainly because I have no clue what-so-ever about the spec, so i'll have to investigate first
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14:37:06  <Wolf01> moin
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14:39:46  <Taede> ello
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14:47:36  <andythenorth> Xaroth|Work: you'd rip most of the stuff from nml - the lexer, all of the constants etc
14:48:09  <andythenorth> you'd still end up writing something that looked like templates, because you'd get bored of formatting strings of bytes directly
14:48:29  <andythenorth> if you do it in C or something, it might actually be performative too :P
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14:49:51  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: I was more likely to just rewrite it :P
14:50:06  <Xaroth|Work> and with python's metaclass system, it can look pwetty
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14:51:39  <andythenorth> do you actually have a plan? o_O
14:52:07  <andythenorth> like, what would the interface be?
14:52:23  <Xaroth|Work> you know a bit how metaclasses work in python?
14:53:03  <andythenorth> vaguely
14:53:06  <andythenorth> I have read articles on them
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15:11:48  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth:
15:12:47  <Xaroth|Work> basically, packets.Packet has a metaclass that adds some magic to it, so that we only have to describe packets, and the metaclass will build us a reader/writer for the raw data
15:13:00  <Xaroth|Work> kinda like how Django does its ORM
15:14:55  <Xaroth|Work> so for GRF building, people can just describe their GRF in form of classes (not sure how to do the conditionals, but I haven't looked at that -at all- yet)
15:15:33  <andythenorth> I'm curious how you'd do varaction 2 switches (for example)
15:15:44  <andythenorth> classes for the vehicles / objects / tiles etc is plausible
15:15:46  <Xaroth|Work> I have -no- idea :p
15:16:04  <Xaroth|Work> I don't know most of the specs to have any clue how to fix those
15:16:21  <andythenorth> maybe something like a Switch class
15:16:31  <Xaroth|Work> but idealisticly speaking, if nmlc can parse it from text, surely it can be built :)
15:16:33  <andythenorth> with multiple Row classes, passed in an iterable, fixed order
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15:17:54  <Xaroth|Work> but that said, I'm first going to work on libopenttd
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16:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what this saphire guy is trying to achieve...
16:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> he's somewhere between SkiddLow and andythenorth :p
16:23:12  <andythenorth> he is somewhat having fun I think
16:23:15  <andythenorth> pumping out awesome
16:23:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: hopefully you just described a full spectrum :P
16:23:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt that :)
16:24:25  <Eddi|zuHause> at least not in the "knows what he wants" department :p
16:27:38  <andythenorth> I dunno, I think skiddlow knows 100% what he wants
16:37:46  <andythenorth> I always wondered what the term meant...
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17:29:12  <andythenorth> 114 trucks in egrvts
17:29:27  <andythenorth> covering 200 years
17:33:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: you prefer to pick vehicles directly for a cargo where possible?  No refitting?
17:38:11  <andythenorth> nvm :)
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18:45:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26185 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_nynorsk.txt (2013-12-29 18:45:09 UTC)
18:45:17  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:18  <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 137 changes by terjesc
18:55:32  <Macha> Does anyone know how a bus would manage to lost 15x its running costs in a year?
18:56:24  <montalvo> hello, sorry if this is a basic question but i just downloaded 1.4.0-beta1 and was told i had to update opengfx to a beta version, but i don't know where to find the download for that?
18:56:50  <Macha> Go to download online content, and install OpenGFX from there
18:56:59  <Macha> (In the game menu, you might need to restart after)
18:57:29  <montalvo> thank you :)
18:58:17  <montalvo> hooray! that worked
18:58:19  <montalvo> thanks again
19:00:23  <Rubidium> Macha:
19:03:33  <Macha> Rubidium: Thanks
19:08:58  <planetmaker> hello
19:10:01  <Xaroth|Work> it lives
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19:14:30  <montalvo> so speaking of basic questions
19:14:37  <montalvo> is there a guide somewhere about how this new cargo distribution feature works?
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19:17:17  <Macha>
19:17:43  <Macha> Basically, cargo ends up in your station, and then the destination is chosen from among all the reachable stations that accept that good.
19:17:58  <Macha> You turn it on/off seperately for pax, mail, valuables and everything else.
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19:18:35  <Macha> And stuff is smart enough to automatically transfer if you have no direct line route
19:18:46  <planetmaker> <Macha> Does anyone know how a bus would manage to lost 15x its running costs in a year? <-- NewGRF-provided vehicles can dynamically change running costs. The displayed value does not correspond to that in those cases.
19:19:45  <planetmaker> or more likely you use transfer orders where that vehicle gets a negative share of the overall profit
19:20:07  <Macha> I don't use transfer orders, but stuff is transferring because of cargodist being on
19:20:18  <planetmaker> same thing then, I guess :)
19:20:37  <planetmaker> could, of course, also be both reasons
19:20:51  <Macha> Yeah, I have UKRS trains and some UK bus set.
19:21:04  <planetmaker> they *do* dynamically change running costs
19:21:11  <Macha> Ah, kk.
19:22:57  <montalvo> Macha, thanks!
19:28:02  <montalvo> so is this why my profits have dropped? because my mainline has loads of other stations along the way so passengers are getting off earlier?
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19:36:45  <Macha> montalvo: Probably part of it
19:36:58  <montalvo> boo
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20:59:05  <__ln__> "Schumacher hospitalisé : hémorragie cérébrale, état critique"
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21:09:44  <planetmaker> sport ist mord
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22:50:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, this is weird... steam had a crash problem, which i solved by updating wine, then it worked for a while, and now it crashes again on startup
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