Log for #openttd on 14th April 2014:
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00:01:37  <FrenkyPohodar> I found on the internet OTTD-web config for editing openttd.cfg but somehow it still does not.  I'm going to ask for help. I guess I'm wrong path. I do not know how to specify the path there is a way to win C: \ Users \ Leviathan \ Documents \ OpenTTD \ content_download \ data  but how to write for linux? I do not have the file data
00:03:10  <Supercheese> According to
00:03:14  <Supercheese> Linux  : "~/.openttd"
00:03:31  <FLHerne> On Linux, the equivalent path is ~/.openttd/content_download/data
00:04:58  <FLHerne> And your guide may be outdated, because for manual installation you should just be using ~/.openttd/data
00:05:44  <FLHerne> content_download should only be edited by the game, to store things downloaded with the in-game interface
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07:04:45  <dihedral> good morning
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07:27:56  <peter1139> Hello.
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07:50:21  <DanMacK> Hey all
07:57:40  <planetmaker> moin
07:57:44  <V453000> moo
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09:54:50  <peter1139> protected static still feels wrong o_O
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09:56:33  <Bobix> sup
09:56:41  <SpComb> private volatile const *restrict const x = 0x42;
09:57:06  <SpComb> spot the bug
09:57:33  <TinoDidriksen> 2nd const
09:57:59  <TinoDidriksen> Oh wait, no actual type...
09:58:15  <SpComb> :(
09:59:27  <TinoDidriksen> But even then, what language would that be? It's not C++...
10:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> what does "restrict" mean?
10:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i sometimes wonder how so many wtfs can be put into one single line
10:04:38  <peter1139>
10:06:09  <peter1139> restrict with const seems silly though :)
10:09:43  <SpComb> private volatile const *restrict const *void mem = 0;
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11:04:52  <krinn> hi, openttdcoop status on heartbleed please?
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11:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> "on a scale from 1 to tschernobyl, this is a fukushima"
11:14:10  <krinn> :)
11:14:39  <krinn> server run a debian i suppose?
11:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause> who is the admin of that anyway? Ammler? ^Spike^?
11:15:59  <krinn> my question is not really if it is affect, i suppose it is
11:15:59  <LordAro> planetmaker?
11:16:04  <krinn> just if it is fix
11:16:29  <peter1139> 1) not all servers were affected
11:16:36  <LordAro> krinn, it could well never have been vulnerable, if it's updated like :L
11:16:43  <peter1139> 2) it's been a week...
11:16:47  <peter1139> (well, nearly)
11:16:57  <peter1139> 3) test yourself
11:17:25  <krinn> testing a fixed server doesn't make it a non affected one ;)
11:17:45  <^Spike^> 4) get ip banned cause you make someone mad by testing stuff without him liking it :)
11:17:53  <^Spike^> it's fixed the same day the news came out
11:18:18  <^Spike^> was a server that was on the nomination of fixing well basicly during this week/my vacation
11:18:25  <^Spike^> but well it was done earlier
11:19:05  <^Spike^> and krinn assumptions about os... ;)
11:19:24  <krinn> yep just assumptions
11:19:42  <^Spike^> we have a mix of 3 OS atm which we are bringing down to 2
11:20:13  <^Spike^> or rather... 2 OS families...
11:20:20  <^Spike^> RedHat and Debian families
11:21:57  <peter1139> I have quite a bit of stuff on Debian oldstable still, which was never affected. Handy.
11:22:22  <krinn> osssl < 1.01?
11:23:29  <^Spike^> considering most servers have been reinstall within the last 1-1,5 year you can prob guess versions
11:24:31  <krinn> older than 2013/12 is fine so
11:25:10  <^Spike^> let's just say the access point we had was vulnerable
11:25:25  <^Spike^> that's a thing we did have... 1 server ssl offloading it for the rest
11:25:54  <krinn> i don't remember where the switch to ssh was made?
11:26:13  <^Spike^> ?
11:27:06  <krinn> server got a problem and ssh only was use to upload last time i tried
11:27:25  <^Spike^> eh... ah i know what you mean
11:27:49  <^Spike^> you mean for project pushes...
11:27:53  <krinn> yep
11:28:01  <^Spike^> ehm... i don't remember exactly when it started failing
11:28:02  <krinn> that's only ssl usage i've made
11:28:35  <^Spike^> ssh shouldn't have been affected if i remember correct
11:29:09  <krinn> yep, that's why i ask, that bug that was a saver finally :)
11:29:39  <^Spike^> we are working on getting https pushing working again just takes time... :)
11:30:04  <krinn> take your time, i prefer ssh
11:30:32  <^Spike^> in the end i don't ;)
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11:31:05  <^Spike^> atleast... not in it's current setup :)
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11:31:42  <krinn> as long as ssh is ok, i'm fine
11:31:51  <^Spike^> it is :)
11:31:58  <^Spike^> until the next bug in openssh is found :)
11:32:03  <krinn> :D
11:32:04  <^Spike^> we'll never know :D
11:32:20  <krinn> well, it is more than sure it will comes soon
11:32:38  <krinn> because of HB i suppose zillions eyes are put on thing like ossh now
11:33:44  <^Spike^> the moment work calls me out of bed on my free day cause of a critical bug well... should say enough :)
11:33:55  <^Spike^> i work @ a hosting company so lots of linux/unix servers :)
11:34:01  <krinn> any openssh dev should be scared like fuck to have made similar error and don't want his name associate with such a story, so they are working hard imo at reviewing their commit
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11:34:33  <krinn> lol ^Spike^ must have been a bad day then
11:35:00  <^Spike^> it was 2 days before i had a damn exam... so yeah :D
11:35:11  <^Spike^> and i guess if openssh has such a bug... it will happen again :)
11:36:52  <krinn> well it should, that wasn't a huge bug, even the impact is huge...
11:37:26  <^Spike^> considering we do alot with ssl offloading at work...
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11:37:36  <^Spike^> you can realize the impact
11:39:02  <krinn> yes, like Eddi|zuHause said, more like fukushima
11:39:31  <^Spike^> collegue didn't like it either when i "tested" the sslvpn from home :)
11:39:44  <^Spike^> he was calling me about it with info and i was like: Yeah i see.... ;)
11:43:01  <krinn> ah fine! just check my and its date august 2013, so the ssl bug on ottdcoop must be august or earlier
11:44:24  <planetmaker> not exactly a bug. But we changed the web frontend
11:44:45  <planetmaker> The new one not integrated with the credentials DB
11:44:59  <planetmaker> thus no action which requires authentication
11:45:13  <planetmaker> but that all is totally unrelated to any heartbeat thing
11:46:44  <krinn> fine then! At least i don't have anything to change for ottdcoop
11:47:43  <planetmaker> and the integration with the credentials DB... takes time :)
11:47:43  <^Spike^> you're member of the biggest social network anyway... ;)
11:47:58  <planetmaker> didn't exactly become an urgent thing to restore :P
11:48:37  <krinn> ^Spike^, you mean irc, i'm not on facebook or tweeter like
11:52:08  <^Spike^> nop.... the NSA ;)
11:52:24  <krinn> :)
11:52:40  <krinn> must have trigger some servers just putting that word here
11:53:37  <^Spike^> oh well they try to log everything on freenode/oftc/other related irc network anyway ;)
11:53:45  <^Spike^> gives them more to search through
11:53:53  <^Spike^> gives us more time to well... keep them busy even more :D
11:54:02  <krinn> yep
11:54:49  <krinn> it's impressive to think about google infra, and they have power to log google and all, must have a grounded site that is huge like a country!
12:04:41  <peter1139> Bear in mind that OpenSSH is totally separate to and different from OpenSSL.
12:05:27  <krinn> peter1139, yep that's why i'm happy ssl bug in openttdcoop made us switch to ossh :)
12:05:58  <^Spike^> ehm... it wasn't an openssl bug that leaded to the switch
12:06:06  <krinn> sorry guys, yep, not a bug
12:06:16  <^Spike^> better said the change wasn't related openssl at all
12:06:23  <krinn> but unavaiabability (too long word to not make faults on it)
12:06:37  <peter1139> Unavailability? Quite simple.
12:07:21  <krinn> well, i should put some speller in that xchat one day
12:07:41  <krinn> and also stop calling it xchat one day too
12:08:11  <peter1139> Yeah, the correct name is irssi.
12:08:57  <krinn> nope, hexchat
12:10:20  <krinn> irssi is for me like emacs, extend to a point it's no more usable ;)
12:11:22  <krinn> at least emacs is close to making coffee, that would be fine then
12:12:05  <peter1139> Extend? I... don't use any extensions.
12:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i've known a guy who used emacs for his coffee like 10 years ago
12:14:04  <LordAro> how did he manage that?
12:14:05  <krinn> lmao Eddi|zuHause the problem is that might be really possible
12:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i think he connected the coffee maker to the serial port or so
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12:14:40  <krinn> serial port interface with some pro coffee
12:15:02  <LordAro> coffee maker with a serial port? ok :3
12:15:04  <krinn> yep what i think, the next part would be programming emacs to do that, and i'm sure it's doable for emacs
12:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause> basically he was tired of getting asked this question all the time, so he actually did it :)
12:15:33  <krinn> i should have taken "pickup the dog for a walk" example
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12:54:10  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I'm sure that "written offer" covers very well an electronic document saying "Ask us for the source"
12:54:44  <planetmaker> "written offer" needs not be a rock or piece of paper
12:55:12  <krinn> yep, it's written, just like we write here or in txt
12:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ultimately this is for a court to decide, but that's not the point anyway
12:55:18  <planetmaker> and, according to GPL FAQ, the written offer is valid for everyone in the world, including people who didn't get the programme from you themselves
12:55:46  <krinn> the aim of the written offer is to prevent anyone from hidding the fact you can have the source
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12:55:55  <Flygon> Damned tails
12:55:59  <Flygon> Growing when I'm not looking
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12:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, if the written offer is passed on, the right to get the source is passed on
12:56:27  <krinn> nope, the right to get the source comes with the modification of the files you've made
12:56:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but still this doesn't mean you have to give the written offer to everyone
12:56:50  <krinn> passing unmodified files, you don't pass the license, it remain to the one that has modify it
12:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: you don't have the right to pass on unmodified files without license
12:59:26  <krinn> i'm not speaking about removing the license
13:00:00  <krinn> just that, if you aren't allow to remove the license, what's the point of the written offer as the license must be include, and the license grant already the ability to have source in it
13:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence makes no sense
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13:01:03  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i made a license, you cannot remove it, my license tell you that you must provide source. Why i force you to make another written offer requiring the same thing?
13:01:48  <krinn> because the written offer is to make sure before getting the license, you will get the license part right to access the source
13:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the license says to provide written offer. you must provide an actual written offer with it
13:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the written offer is not part of the license
13:02:47  <krinn> no the license say you must provide source AND provide a written offer to the source
13:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you're leaving out essential details
13:03:51  <krinn> that's why court exists :) details
13:03:54  <krinn> which one?
13:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you have to provide source _to anyone that asks_, and you have to write an offer _telling them they have the right to ask, and who to ask_
13:04:48  <V453000> yay licencing rage war :D
13:05:51  <V453000> btw what if you simply do not have the source anymore?
13:06:09  <krinn> you cannot use it anymore
13:06:35  <V453000> well you for example only have newer source files for newer version
13:06:59  <krinn> all the GPL is made only for the source, that's why everyone can sell binary... but any restriction to source is prohibited
13:08:10  <krinn> if you have old source, you have the license for old sources, if you have a newer versions without source, you loose the license on it
13:08:34  <V453000> and then?
13:08:43  <krinn> no license mean you cannot use it
13:09:06  <krinn> just like a copy of windows without license you cannot use it, this doesn't mean the executable is bad
13:09:12  <V453000> and who will sue me if the license doesnt exist and "nobody" is the author if it isnt me anymore?
13:09:27  <krinn> oh you mean you are the author
13:09:37  <krinn> there's no license for author (at least in france)
13:09:45  <krinn> author can swap license as he wish
13:10:09  <krinn> the copyright is hold until the author state clearly he drop it
13:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i think it said soemwhere
13:10:32  <krinn> or in france 70 years after author death
13:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the written offer must be valid 3 years
13:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you cannot fulfill the written offer, you're in breach of contract, which can have all sorts of legal consequences
13:13:34  <planetmaker> it terminates your license, thus your right to use the software, less sell or distribute it
13:14:07  <krinn> so you can if you have put a limit in time in your written offer
13:14:14  <krinn> because the time limit is not 3 years
13:14:19  <krinn> it's "at least" 3 years
13:14:27  <krinn> if none specify it, it's then forever
13:14:56  <krinn> just like job contrat, if you want hire someone 3 months, you better write it's for 3 months
13:15:13  <V453000> well but if I lost the source,  I cant really prove I am the author anymore
13:15:34  <krinn> you never infringe copyright of anyone, until that anyone claim it
13:15:53  <SpComb> orly
13:16:01  <krinn> this mean yep, if you cannot prove you've made it, and by having source i put a proof i've made it, i can even sue you for your work ^^
13:16:13  <planetmaker> I should claim again copyright on the illegal OpenTTD version offered for 0.89€ in the iOS store...
13:16:24  <planetmaker> some sick Chinese rip-off
13:16:47  <krinn> planetmaker, only if they don't respect it
13:16:58  <planetmaker> I'm sure I already once lodged a complaint on that one.
13:17:04  <krinn> with the binary free download they might provide the written license and path to get source
13:17:16  <planetmaker> krinn, iTunes store inherently doesn't. It imposes further restrictions on distributions. Thus they don't allow GPL
13:17:27  <planetmaker> Thus he has no right to upload it
13:17:36  <planetmaker> They pulled the legal version once
13:17:37  <krinn> yep, itunes cannot add their drm on it
13:18:00  <krinn> no restriction on distribution, this include drm
13:19:16  <krinn> it's easy, putting your work on GPL you make sure as soon as one distrib a version of your work, you can get back the change from them, forcing them to gave you the change even they don't contribute to your work
13:19:55  <krinn> that's why free are sue here! they use kernel, busybox, iptable within the freebox and claim they use on their freebox but no customer can buy the freebox
13:20:18  <krinn> so, we don't sell it, we don't distribute it, so no need to gave the code...
13:20:52  <krinn> but if you resign from free, they make you pay the freebox if you don't sent it back : tada, now the freebox is you, so they really sell it.
13:22:20  <krinn> (i'm not specially proud they are french)
13:25:07  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause,
13:25:21  <krinn> Forgetting to include the written offer to the source code. -> tell me your source code are on paper now :)
13:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: what??
13:29:00  <krinn> nope, not a proof is has to be made not on paper, but it has to be written, that doesn't mean on paper
13:30:51  <krinn> but, if we follow you, i made change to your source code, release a binary for 100000$ and when you ask the changes, i'll answer: you'll get the change when you get your license, and to get the license you must pay the binary price...
13:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i still don't understand what you're trying to say
13:31:55  <krinn> that money is a restriction too, and i can deny you your own work with it.
13:32:27  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: yes, i can ask you to show me the written offer that i gave you. and you can only have that written offer if at least one person paid me
13:35:21  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: additionally, i can ask 3,50€ from you for burning on a CD and shipping fees
13:35:40  <krinn> yep, that's normal fees
13:36:12  <krinn> and you can sell your program, and i can sell it too, but i must provide source if i modify it.
13:37:48  <krinn> even not state, it's clear the validity of such written offer should make sense, not asking too much money (for shipping fee) or anything abusing "send me a letter and a kidney and i send you source back"
13:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what is your point?
13:40:05  <krinn> the point is that any restriction in the written offer is not valid
13:40:45  <krinn> and this include : buy my binary and you get the source.
13:41:31  <krinn> except the author himself that isn't tied to any license. Anyone selling binary cannot hide behind the selling of the binary its need to provide the source
13:42:48  <krinn> and the deal "get my binary for 300000$ and you can ask source" isn't valid.
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13:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: it is. you cannot have the written offer if you didn't buy the binary, or got it from someone who bought the binary
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13:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: and without the written offer i don't have to give you shit
13:47:40  <krinn> the written offer doesn't force you, the license itself force you :)
13:49:22  <krinn> -> Remember the license requires you make source available to your customers with the product or to include a written offer.
13:52:15  <krinn> So if you don't provide the written offer, you're then tied to provide sources directly.
13:54:17  <blathijs> krinn: If this is about GPL - the license says the source (or written offer) must accompany any distribution of the binary. This means that there is no obligation to release the source to people that are not receiving (buying) the binary.
13:55:15  <krinn> yep, but the written offer is an exception to the license. The license tell everyone GPL must provide source, and if it doesn't provide source it's because of the exception put on the written offer.
13:55:25  <krinn> So if you hide the exception, there's then no exception.
13:55:55  <blathijs> The GPL doesn't say you must provide the source to everyone, only to people that you also provide the binary to.
13:56:37  <blathijs> So if you give a way the binary for free, you can't say "you can get the source only if you pay $lots for the binary"
13:56:59  <blathijs> But if you don't give the binary away for free and only sell it for $lots, there is no need to release the source publically
13:57:40  <blathijs> However, once anyone pays $lots and gets the source, I think they must also receive the right to further distribute the (changed) source
13:58:19  <krinn> It's like a car: you buy a car and then you see a note : that car only start with girl. If that is valid to have such restriction, that restriction must be publicy claim first
13:59:04  <blathijs> I don't think any comparisons with buying physical stuff is applicable here - what counts is the terms of the GPL
13:59:27  <blathijs> Also, I'm not completely following everything you are saying, not all of your sentences seem correct :-(
13:59:35  <krinn> get it? you cannot hide the written offer behind the selling of the binary. Just like you cannot hide the fact a car that everyone knows should be use by male/female can only be use by female.
14:10:57  <Eddi|zuHause>  <blathijs> The GPL doesn't say you must provide the source to everyone, only to people that you also provide the binary to. <-- i've been saying the exact same thing.
14:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the binary, the license and the written offer are sold as a bundle. you cannot have one without the other
14:13:44  <krinn> no you're wrong, the license itself must be public avaiable to user
14:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
14:14:00  <blathijs> krinn: Can you point out where in the GPL it says that?
14:14:19  <planetmaker> blathijs, the FAQ to the GPL says it somewhat different:
14:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> "user" is _ANYONE WHO PAID_
14:15:33  <planetmaker>  Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party
14:15:41  <planetmaker> any third party is anyone whatsoever, Eddi|zuHause
14:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: NOT THE POINT
14:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i said this three times now
14:15:58  <krinn> it's state "anybody who requests" not "anybody that have buy the binary"
14:16:03  <planetmaker> that's a quote from the license, Eddi|zuHause . That's the point
14:16:11  <planetmaker> 3b)
14:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker:  THE POINT IS I CAN ASK YOU TO SHOW ME THE WRITTEN OFFER
14:17:10  <blathijs> planetmaker: The written offer is valid for anyone, but only if _you get the offer_ (possibly indirectly)
14:17:43  <planetmaker> you yelling, Eddi|zuHause, doesn't make your right ;)
14:17:43  <krinn> no: the written offer is valid for anyone as soon as the written offer exists
14:17:58  <blathijs> If you don't have the offer (because you didn't buy the binary and didn't get the offer along with the binary from someone else who bougth the binary) you are not entitled to receive the source
14:18:23  <krinn> that still won't make it true :)
14:18:25  <planetmaker> blathijs, *anyone* who passes on the binary, must - by the license terms - pass on the offer
14:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, they must make a new offer
14:19:34  <planetmaker> wrong. Read the last paragraph of §3
14:19:35  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker is right there, you are allowed to pass on the offer, which is why the license states the "any third party" part. You are _allowed_ to pass on the actual source or a new offer instead, I presume.
14:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> we're discussing like 5 different things
14:19:57  <krinn> this mean planetmaker buy programZ, planetmaker gave me programZ and i can ask you to provide me source, i don't need to ask planetmaker as he didn't 1/ sell it to me (no commercial operation) 2/ didn't modify it himself
14:20:22  <V453000> =D
14:20:35  <peter1139> BAD FEATURES
14:20:36  <planetmaker> convenient red-herring now, Eddi|zuHause. Just admit you didn#t read §3 really
14:21:04  <blathijs> In any case, I think the practical value of this discussion mostly boils down to the difference between "nobody bought the binary yet" and "at least one person bought the binary", since in the latter case the binary, source and written offer can be freely redistributed and assumed to be "in the wild"
14:21:05  <krinn> i admit i was wrong on one thing: If you sell the program and source are include with it, you are then allow to not have a written offer. This time, i must buy the program and get the source with it.
14:21:35  <TinoDidriksen> Why does FOSS licensing come up every 3 months in this channel?
14:22:01  <planetmaker> every 3 months a new person asks about it. One way or another
14:22:24  <planetmaker> and it's not a bad thing to know your license terms ;)
14:22:25  <krinn> well, i din't asked, it start from "written offer must be on paper" :)
14:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there are valid 3 scenarios: 1) you can pass on the written offer itself, after you have bought it (then you give up the right to ask for sources by yourself) 2) you can give away the binary (as in not keeping it), along with the written offer (then you give up the right to distribute), 3) you make new copies of the program and pass them out (then you have to make a new offer)
14:23:31  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, read the last paragraph of §3. The use of "3rd party" clearly contradicts your statements
14:23:44  <planetmaker> especially interpretation 3) is wrong
14:24:07  <planetmaker> I can give you openttd and say to get sources from the website. And you can hand that on and say the same
14:24:22  <planetmaker> no need to renew anything or write snail-mail letters about that
14:24:41  <planetmaker> the license doesn't say so. Written things can be electronic since the creation of gpl
14:25:27  <krinn> it would be a bit strange a GPL that was made to cover electronic code, isn't thinking about using electronic media to carry it
14:25:39  <planetmaker> yeah
14:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you can GIVE the offer to a 3rd party (scenario 1), but you cannot MAKE COPIES OF THE OFFER
14:26:06  <krinn> lol yes
14:26:19  <krinn> the only thing that stop the offer is the experiation date of the offer
14:26:24  <planetmaker> of course I can. I can keep my copy. And give it to you, too. Then the offer for source is valid for you and me
14:26:27  <krinn> better put one, and no less than 3 years !
14:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and 3c) does not apply since we're talking about paid (commercial) distribution
14:28:00  <krinn> if planetmaker buy openttd from you with the written offer to send source, i can ask you source too if planetmaker gave it to me
14:28:07  <krinn> and no, i didn't buy you the program myself!
14:28:23  <krinn> And this as long as the written offer tell me i could : at minimum 3 years
14:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, but SOMEONE has to buy it
14:28:58  <planetmaker> we're not talking the case that it hasn't been distributed
14:29:07  <planetmaker> then we need no license
14:29:23  <krinn> yes, but you then now (that must be french exception), fall into the "abusive close in contrat"
14:30:04  <krinn> if GPL allow you to query source, except if limited by written offer, you must provide the written offer so anyone can see the conditions that limit the license
14:30:19  <planetmaker> but if I sell one copy, I must offer source access to anyone
14:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no. to anyone WHO CAN SHOW THE WRITTEN OFFER
14:30:59  <krinn> just like if anyone can buy a car that is know to be use by male or female, you cannot hide the fact only female can drive it until the sell is done.
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14:31:14  * blathijs is inclined to agree with Eddi|zuHause on this particular point, though I'm not entirely sure
14:31:39  <blathijs> The license does not say "the offer is only valid to anyone who can show it", so it boils down to how an "offer" is defined I guess
14:33:00  <krinn> The license term can be read by anyone, as soon as you sell something with a "special use case ; a license" you must provide access to the license.
14:33:18  <planetmaker> yes, but the offer is transferrable and copy-able
14:33:39  <planetmaker> copy-able derived from 3b: " give *any* third party,..."
14:33:46  <krinn> and nobody can hide a GPL is GPL. And if nobody tell me a written offer limit it, i have no restriction and the license is apply
14:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: very much no. the written offer is transferrable, but not copyable
14:34:49  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you want to make copies, you must make an own offer
14:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause> if then someone activates that offer, you can activate the original offer that you kept
14:37:38  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not so sure about that. Is there any written evidence for it?
14:37:52  <krinn> they must pass along a copy of this written offer <- no transfert : copy
14:38:16  <krinn> planetmaker giving me the program doesn't mean he lost his right to claim source from you
14:38:21  <krinn> we're just now 2 that can claim it
14:38:22  <planetmaker> the main problem is Eddi|zuHause interprets 3rd party different than we do.
14:38:32  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Also, that would very much contradict the goal of the "any third party" part: If I receive a written offer from you and then redistribute the binary to a few other people, I should be allowed to pass on the written offer and have them contact you directly for the source. That's how I understand the intent.
14:38:47  <planetmaker> he thinks that 3rd party is direct clients of the one selling. I dispute that interpretation
14:39:06  <krinn> 3rd party is me, planemaker is 2nd, and 1rd is the seller
14:39:14  <peter1139> 1rd!
14:39:52  <planetmaker> as direct clients are not 3rd-party but 2nd party (if such term exists)
14:39:56  <krinn> and peter1139 would be a poor 4rd as he is too slow, but now you must provide source to 3 guys :)
14:40:23  <krinn> and so until the written offer expire (and i hope you did add a date limit in it)
14:40:34  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: for the "i give it to a few friends" you have 3c)
14:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: but then you don't include the original offer, just the information regarding the offer
14:41:59  <planetmaker> which is a copy of the offer. That's what I say
14:42:08  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Oh right. Looking at 3c now, I think that means that _if_ you distribute commercially, you must make your own offer or provide the source
14:42:22  <krinn> yep a copy not a transfert, so planetmaker won't lost his right to claim them by giving it to someone else
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14:42:43  <krinn> blathijs yeah!!!
14:42:54  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: So if I buy the source from you and then freely publish it on the internet, I'm allowed to include your offer. If I re-sell, then I must make my own offer or supply source directly.
14:43:09  <planetmaker> might be the difference
14:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: something like that
14:43:30  <krinn> right! and if you forget to add a date limit, the written offer have none
14:43:37  <krinn> and the date limit cannot be less than 3 years
14:44:05  <planetmaker> probably I could refuse after 3 years. But in times of VCS that's a stupid argument
14:44:18  <krinn> nope, it's 3 years min, there's no upper limit
14:44:22  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: But I read "the information you received as to the offer" as the offer itself (the language even suggests that the offer is not intended to be valid-on-presenting, just valid-if-you-know-about-it)
14:44:26  <krinn> something not said in contract is not said
14:44:59  <planetmaker> it's a matter of being able to prove, blathijs :)
14:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: well i could put a license code in the offer, and ask for that code.
14:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: which has no effect whatsoever. but i could do it
14:45:35  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, I think you would be allowed to do that. You wouldn't be allowed to enforce a once-per-code rule, I think though
14:45:46  <krinn> blathijs, in theory yes, but france doesn't allow some unfair offer. Just like any rat close that prevent you from using something because of an hidden restriction
14:46:16  <peter1139> 4rd? Crikey.
14:46:42  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: but it would prevent any random "i'm feeling lucky" guy asking for stuff that he doesn't actually know
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14:49:43  <blathijs> Is there a specific license dispute that started this, or are we just discussing hypothetically?
14:49:59  <krinn> :) no it start with "written offer must be on paper"
14:50:37  <blathijs> I think we've agreed that that's not true :-)
14:50:55  <krinn> ask Eddi|zuHause
14:51:28  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: there's some thread in the forum which was taken out of context somewhere else
14:51:39  <krinn>
14:52:31  <krinn> so part2 is about the "can i hide the written offer"
14:52:45  <krinn> and only gave it if you pay my binary
14:54:39  <blathijs> Ok, so I think the answer to that is yes, you can only give it if you pay the binary. However, you cannot stop others from passing on (copying, if you will) the written offer
14:54:46  <blathijs> Though I don't think we agree on that yet :-)
14:54:59  <krinn> And no :)
14:55:24  <krinn> You can only make the first to pay for the source code only if you include the source with the binary
14:55:36  <krinn> Else you must provide the infamous written offer
14:56:14  <krinn> And as you provide the written offer, you cannot hide that offer because it's an exception to the license.
14:56:24  <planetmaker> did anyone here buy that scam?
14:56:45  <krinn> And as you must then publicy shown the exception so anyone knows there's one, you provide them the way to get the source, and no, they didn't download or pay it yet
14:57:16  <Xaroth|Work> are you guys still babbling about that?
14:57:19  <Xaroth|Work> bloody hell
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15:01:51  <blathijs> krinn: Why is the written offer an exceptoin to the license? It's something that accompanies the binary you buy. Regarding the "you must know what you're buying beforehand", I'd say it's sufficient to say "when you buy this binary, I'll include a written offer for the source".
15:02:08  <krinn> no the license state you must provide the source
15:02:26  <krinn> only you are able to not provide the source if you use the written offer : it's an exception
15:02:26  <blathijs> or a written offer, right?
15:02:45  <peter1139> How can it be an exception to the license if it's part of it?
15:02:51  <blathijs> Huh? The library says "do a or b", so if you do b, then you're not making an exception to the license?
15:03:24  <krinn> no the binary says, you can do A or B.
15:03:33  <krinn> the license said i mean
15:03:41  <blathijs> You can argue that you must tell people you are going to do "b" before they buy your product, but I don't you can be required to actually _do_ "b" beforehand
15:03:43  <krinn> so license say A: provide source
15:03:57  <krinn> or B: provide a written offer to provide A
15:04:36  <peter1139> Crap, I've lost the train movement patch :S
15:05:10  <krinn> and next to that you have the state of B : written offer have a time limit minimum of 3 years, no upper time limit, and you cannot restrict it and only ask shipping cost or cd/dvd writing cost for it
15:06:24  <krinn> so if you don't provide A, you must provide B. And you cannot ask money for B. Sure you can hide B to everyone eyes, but if you hide B to everyone then everyone can safely assume A is the norm and apply
15:07:15  <krinn> So to make sure everyone knows B is apply, you must provide the conditions of B, and the conditions provide anyone how to get the source for free...
15:07:38  <krinn> As you see, you have only way to sell the binary : state you sell the binary with the source to avoid using B option
15:07:48  <blathijs> krinn: I still think that just saying "I will provide a written offer after purchase" is enough.
15:08:32  <krinn> yeah, but it might depend on country for that. But in mine, you cannot hide a restriction that will influence choice of buyer.
15:08:37  <Pinkbeast> blathijs: Not even that, from the GPL. Of course, I might enquire which you plan to do before giving you money.
15:08:53  <krinn> Per example: WTF ! i wouln't had buy it if i knew i could only get source for 3 years...
15:09:18  <Pinkbeast> krinn: That's between you and the seller, nothing to do with the GPL.
15:09:40  <krinn> yes, it's not the GPL that cover that, but your country code of commerce
15:09:57  <krinn> it's not a fair sell, as you hide to the buyer limitation
15:10:13  <krinn> and i'm sure most european country have such a protection
15:10:30  <Pinkbeast> That's also probably not true since I'm _buying_ the binary, not access to the source.
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15:10:59  <krinn> The problem is your buying to binary without knowning a limitation.
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15:11:39  <krinn> It might be legal in your country, but like i said, selling a car in france and hidding the fact the car need coffee as fuel is not accept
15:11:48  <peter1139> Huh, it's part of the license, of course you know.
15:11:53  <blathijs> krinn: That comparison does not hold, though
15:11:56  <Pinkbeast> Bogus analogy. It's not a limitation on the use of the binary.
15:12:10  <krinn> It's a limitation on the license
15:12:10  <Pinkbeast> peter1139: Why? To receive GPLed software I don't have to agree to the GPL, let alone read it.
15:12:40  <blathijs> krinn: It's like buying a car and getting an offer for a free carwash that's only valid 3 months. You can't complain that you didn't know the carwash was only valid for three months before you bought the car.
15:12:57  <krinn> blathijs, exact!
15:13:07  <krinn> but you can complain if nobody tell you it was only for 3 months
15:13:19  <Pinkbeast> (Likewise Eddi's reference in the thread to the final recipient as a "licensee" is spurious).
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15:13:45  <krinn> because some guy would just buy that model not for the car itself, some other model might be better, but because of the unlimited car wash
15:13:54  <blathijs> Pinkbeast: Good point about not beeing the licensee if you don't redistribute
15:14:46  <Pinkbeast> krinn: Did I buy "binary", or "binary and source access"? That depends on what the seller offered. If the former, you don't have a leg to stand on.
15:15:28  <krinn> in all case, the source access is grant by the license, either directly with the binary, or later because of the written offer.
15:15:51  <krinn> and only the time on the written offer can limit your ability to access it
15:15:54  <Pinkbeast> Obviously, yes, but if I just agreed to buy the binary, I can't complain about which of those I got.
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15:16:06  <fjb> Moin
15:16:17  <krinn> Pinkbeast, if you know the rule prior to do it yes, but for that the rule must be tell
15:16:45  <krinn> and telling the rule is telling the content of the written offer. And that content tell you how to get the source ^^
15:16:45  <Pinkbeast> In the rather stretched analogy, after you buy the car, the seller says "Well, I have to offer you either unlimited washing, or washing for three months; so it's the latter". You've got nothing to complain about.
15:17:39  <Pinkbeast> That doesn't make sense. I'm not in violation of EU contract law if I sell you a binary and afterwards give you something extra.
15:17:52  <Pinkbeast> And I'm not in violation of the GPL if that something extra meets its conditions.
15:17:58  <krinn> You don't give me an extra, you must provide it
15:18:08  <krinn> every cars comes with the washing!
15:18:22  <krinn> the only limit is about the time you get the washing
15:18:26  <Pinkbeast> Just because I had (by the GPL) to give it to you does not mean it was not an extra on top of our commercial transaction.
15:19:35  <krinn> you can tell anyone it's extra to have 5 wheel, but you cannot state it's a commercial extra to get a car with 4 wheels
15:19:42  <Pinkbeast> Plainly when you buy one of the very many bits of consumer electronics with GPLed code embedded they do not say up front how they plan to distribute the source, and this does not violate consumer protection law.
15:19:54  <Pinkbeast> You can _if_ we agreed to sell you a 3-wheeled car.
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15:21:10  <krinn> Pinkbeast, they are violating GPL, they must provide source with it, or way to get it, even if it's a fridge
15:21:36  <Pinkbeast> krinn: 1) but they don't violate the GPL by not saying up front how they will distribute the source
15:21:46  <Pinkbeast> 2) a violation of the GPL is not a violation of consumer protection law.
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15:22:10  <krinn> 2/ for the one or the other reason, they still violate a law
15:22:12  <Pinkbeast> So if when I get home and open the fridge, there's my written offer; fine, no GPL violation.
15:22:40  <Pinkbeast> And I didn't know up front they were going to do that, but no consumer protection issue; I was buying a fridge, not "fridge + source".
15:23:05  <Pinkbeast> Which law has been violated in this case?
15:23:33  <krinn> it would be harder for a judge to tell a fridge with a limited written offer in time hurt you badly if you didn't knew before the time was limited yes
15:23:44  <krinn> but it's easy for a program
15:24:13  <Pinkbeast> No, it would be impossible in either case if my agreement with the seller said nothing about source code.
15:24:28  <Pinkbeast> I wasn't trying to buy source; I can't complain I don't then like how it was distributed.
15:24:35  <krinn> Per example, there's value for code, who cares about Windows2k, you can buy it already. But if today microsoft sold a windows + sourcecode, even with a higher price, you can be sure they will sold it a lot
15:24:47  <Pinkbeast> That seems completely irrelevant.
15:24:59  <krinn> so there's a price or value for program code, and buying a program can be only made to get your hands on the code, not the program by itself
15:25:14  <Pinkbeast> That also seems completely irrelevant.
15:25:43  <krinn> yes it is, GPL provide code, buying a program GPL you can only do it for the code
15:26:07  <Pinkbeast> Then you should agree with the seller than you are buying access to the source. If you don't, you don't have a leg to stand on.
15:26:23  <krinn> not if the GPL provide it to you
15:26:46  <Pinkbeast> That's a separate issue; the seller does have to meet the conditions of the GPL, but they did so with the written offer.
15:27:02  <krinn> buyig GPL program offer value vs non GPL binary, you will have ability to adapt it to other OS, or just newer version
15:27:17  <Pinkbeast> That is reiterating the previous obvious irrelevancy.
15:27:48  <krinn> it's ok then as long as written offer is tell
15:27:54  <Pinkbeast> You've just made that up.
15:28:26  <krinn> or at least the limitation. One can hide the written offer but state "we limit download of source code upto year 2018"
15:28:36  <Pinkbeast> Again, you've just made that up.
15:29:44  <krinn> so nothing more to say then
15:30:52  <Pinkbeast> What else is there to say? Consumer law: I offer to sell you a binary, making no mention of source code. I supply what I offered. That is absolutely legal.
15:31:09  <Pinkbeast> GPL: I must then supply you a written offer. I do so. GPL: absolutely satisfied.
15:32:47  <krinn> for GPL part yes
15:33:24  <krinn> tell me limit to the written offer and it's fine.
15:33:35  <Pinkbeast> No. I never mentioned source code in the offer.
15:33:52  <Pinkbeast> That's completely legal. Goods must be "as described". I only ever offered to sell you the binary.
15:34:39  <krinn> No, it would be like i only said i sell a car, when one can expect the car comes with wheels
15:34:53  <krinn> if you remove the wheels, you must tell them you sell a car without wheel
15:35:27  <krinn> all cars comes with wheels (well as of today)
15:35:28  <Pinkbeast> But the overwhelming majority of software does not come with source. The majority of GPLed software ordinary people use does not come with source.
15:35:45  <krinn> But the overwhelming majority of GPL software do
15:35:52  <Pinkbeast> No, it doesn't.
15:36:08  <krinn> Well, i didn't count, i let you do if you like
15:36:09  <Pinkbeast> Got the source for your ADSL router? Your phone? Your washing machine?
15:36:16  <SpComb> pretty rare to download a GPL binary with bundled source
15:36:19  <peter1139> Show me source code on your Linux installation CD.
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15:36:35  <krinn> peter1139, sorry i use gentoo
15:36:40  <peter1139> lol
15:36:43  <krinn> so yes i can show you them easy
15:36:47  <SpComb> what was this tldr discussion about? Limited-time GPL source offers?
15:36:57  <krinn> Pinkbeast, and free (illiad) is use because of that
15:37:00  <Pinkbeast> Embedded systems mean no-source wins. Beardy types like us use Linux; _everyone_ has electronics with embedded GPLed software.
15:37:06  <krinn> s/use/sue
15:37:31  <krinn> Embedded system without source using GPL are infringing it
15:37:33  <peter1139> Android phones, eh?
15:37:43  <krinn> android is GPL ?
15:37:44  <Pinkbeast> Not if they supply a written offer, etc etc.
15:37:54  <peter1139> krinn, it uses a Linux kernel...
15:38:21  <krinn> i'm not phone specialist, but i'm sure you can get source for it then
15:38:39  <krinn> i have no phone with android to tell you
15:39:04  <blathijs> Pinkbeast: FWIW, I agree entirely with everything you've said, thanks :-)
15:39:34  <Pinkbeast> blathijs: I'm stuck at home ill so I've not got much else to do. :-)
15:40:13  <krinn>
15:40:22  <krinn> for your router issue, there's a real case there
15:40:50  <Pinkbeast> krinn: You've missed the point. They have to provide access _somehow_.
15:41:12  <Pinkbeast> That does not mean they have to provide access by your preferred mechanism, or disclose what the mechanism is before purchase.
15:41:14  <krinn> <Pinkbeast> Got the source for your ADSL router?
15:42:09  <krinn> it's not because it's embed that you can dismiss it.
15:42:09  <Pinkbeast> krinn: Stick to the point, please. My point there was in fact that much of the GPLed software out there comes with (at best) a written offer, not that some router vendors infringe.
15:42:57  <Pinkbeast> So the idea you have that the buyer of a GPLed binary can complain if they get a written offer because that is totally unprecedented does not stand up to examination.
15:43:11  <krinn> Pinkbeast, i hardly find any that comes with a written offer.
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15:43:55  <krinn> in real, i never see any that have such a written offer as of today.
15:44:00  * blathijs thinks krinn wants to argue that when you agre to buy GPL software, you can expect (in the consumer law sense of expect) to receive source, just like you can expect to get four wheels when you agree to buy a car
15:44:34  <krinn> well, it's not extra super expectation from a gpl or a car no?
15:44:41  <blathijs> krinn: They're probably hidden in the EULA that you (and everyone else) didn't read either?
15:44:49  <krinn> can you point me to one written offer?
15:45:01  <Pinkbeast> I think there's maybe something to that (although in practice I think you'd never explain it to a court), but I don't think you can complain that you don't like the GPL-permitted mechanism for getting it.
15:45:11  <Pinkbeast> I got one in the box for _my_ ADSL router
15:45:32  * blathijs had a few of those flyers with GPL license and offers as well, but of course I tossed them out :-)
15:45:32  <krinn> well, i my dsl has provide me a cd with the source
15:45:49  <planetmaker> wow. that's rare :)
15:45:51  <peter1139> Pardon?
15:46:32  <SpComb> I downloaded some source and compiled the binary for my router
15:46:33  <krinn> yes
15:46:49  <SpComb> should be that way for all consumer routers!
15:46:52  <krinn> and i'm sure they have put it also on some url
15:47:49  <krinn>
15:50:16  <krinn> so really, i just never seen any gpl with the written offer, honestly
15:50:32  <krinn> i'm not saying it doesn't exist
15:51:47  <krinn> but it should be execption, but like i said before i use gentoo, and most are gpl or other source licensing, only few soft are close one (nvidia driver per example) and that kind doesn't need any written offer anyway
15:52:34  <krinn> your OS might provide you more gpl kind of soft that comes with written offer, but i never seen one
15:57:11  <krinn> Should i take silent as : fuck Krinn is right? or hell we're bored to death.
15:58:22  <Pinkbeast> No, I'm just bored of explaining it to you.
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15:58:44  <krinn> Fine, i could agree to that :)
15:58:51  <Phreeze> gday
16:00:16  <blathijs> krinn: I don't think the "Is anyone actually _using_ the written offer thing" is relevant at all to the discussion, really. I think Pinkbeast only mentioned it to illustrate that it's uncommon for software to ship with source
16:00:36  <blathijs> But I've bored as well :-)
16:00:56  <krinn> lol i agree, but not if the software is GPL
16:01:36  <Phreeze> again that license discussion :D
16:01:49  <krinn> nope it just end on bored
16:01:50  <Phreeze> glad it's over for my thread....everything gplv2 and i'm happy ;)
16:02:48  * krinn thinks he wins anyway with the kick ass "show me one that is with a written offer"
16:03:02  <planetmaker> ah, FLHerne is here. He might want to read up on OpenTTD's directory structure in chapter 4. His knowledge is outdated by ~>3 years ;)
16:03:19  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Eh?
16:03:31  <planetmaker> err-no-data-dir
16:03:52  *** avdg_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:04:06  <FLHerne> Ah yes, we have a newgrf dir now. Useful
16:04:23  <FLHerne> But then, at 1am I never have a clue about anything
16:04:23  <planetmaker> and a baseset. and a screenshot and ...
16:04:39  <planetmaker> yet you give advise based on very outdated dir structure ;)
16:05:02  <planetmaker> thus update your knowledge and keep giving support :P
16:05:21  <SpComb> edit newgrf.lst
16:05:40  <SpComb> no, my memory fails me
16:05:43  <SpComb> newgrfw.cfg
16:05:46  <FLHerne> It's less wrong than content_download/data :P
16:05:57  <planetmaker> yes
16:06:22  <Phreeze> what's a directory ? :>
16:06:38  <Eddi|zuHause> thingie where phone numbers are listed
16:06:43  <Phreeze> ah yeah right
16:06:47  <FLHerne> Phreeze: Definitely not a folder ;-)
16:06:58  <Phreeze> i see openttd 2.0, only an exe, rest remains in the cloud
16:07:03  * Phreeze out
16:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd 2.0 will be software-as-a-service. since we didn't switch to gpl 3.0, we don't have to provide source anymore
16:09:42  <Phreeze> i dont know why, but i think i'm too stupid to do a correct XCOPY MASSAFCKIFNEDGFJBNZHçRB(=ç
16:10:02  <Phreeze> my batch doesn't keep the directory strucutre while xcopying....wwwwtf
16:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> xcopy /?
16:12:08  <Phreeze> i use doscommands since 1990 when i was 7 years old...
16:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't used xcopy in about 20 years now...
16:12:26  <Phreeze> xcopy /Y /E src\*.* F:\cfl-trains\
16:12:37  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:12:38  <Phreeze> should put the whole src folder with subdirs to the cfl-trains folder
16:12:51  <Phreeze> so that i later on have.: \cfl-trains\src\gfx\CFL2200.png
16:12:52  <Phreeze> e.g
16:13:10  <Phreeze> instead, the "src" fails to be copied with
16:13:13  *** ST2 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:13:21  <Phreeze> now i have a cfl-trains\gfx\*.png
16:13:31  * Phreeze feels like a noob now
16:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. use xcopy /Y /E src F:blah
16:13:41  <krinn> i don't even remember xcopy, was ship default with dos?
16:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i think it was new in dos 5.0
16:14:22  <Phreeze> has more options
16:14:35  <krinn> i'm not sure i have use v5, i remember i was swapping dos version to use hdd or floppy (the earlier was cool, but eat lot of mem)
16:14:43  <Phreeze> eddi, i tried and used that, but it just puts the subfolders and files from the "src" directory directly to the cfl-trains...
16:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Phreeze: then do F:\blah\src
16:15:22  <planetmaker> aha. For my router I have to request the source via e-mail. I'll try. I'm curious how it goes :)
16:15:48  <planetmaker> interestingly the written offer is only visible if you un-tar the image file
16:16:27  <krinn> did they limit the time in it?
16:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: not when you log into the router?
16:18:17  <planetmaker> not at all
16:18:36  <Phreeze> Eddi|zuHause yep, i must include the destionation folder too ... was pretty sure it worked other way round too...perhaps with the normal copy cmd
16:18:48  <planetmaker> I found no license info anywhere, also not in the manual
16:19:01  <planetmaker> the manual has the usual proprietary bla bla license stuff
16:19:20  <krinn> they add the written offer but not the license ? :)
16:19:44  <Phreeze> sue them ^^
16:19:47  <planetmaker> krinn, the "written offer" you only get when you tar xf firmware_update_file.image
16:20:16  <krinn> well, nothing wrong i suppose a cool company can do such similar offer even not GPLed soft in use
16:20:49  <planetmaker> the web frontend might not fall under GPL, so slyly one can argue to not display any license there
16:21:00  <Eddi|zuHause> "Die Lizenzbestimmungen finden Sie auf der beiliegenden Produkt-CD in der Datei „License.txt“." ... hm, i wonder where that landed
16:21:33  <krinn> planetmaker, i have no licensing info in mine too, netgear are cool but not the coolest in the world :)
16:22:17  <krinn> But at least, they put 0 copyright that i could find, just nothing at all
16:22:43  <Phreeze> might find then some china-routers with netgear firmware ?:)
16:22:57  <Phreeze> (btw netgear wifi sticks, back at the time, were shiiiiiiiiç%ç% )
16:23:18  <planetmaker> hm... bitches:
16:25:13  <Phreeze> smells combined licenses :)
16:25:40  <krinn> yep and the disclaimer about the firmware itself :)
16:25:44  <krinn> smelly router
16:25:52  <Phreeze> at least it's a stable router ;)
16:26:23  <krinn> i'm not sure what stable could be, beyond it works
16:26:29  <planetmaker> the firmware actually is newer than that copyright let you know. It's Feb. 2014
16:26:52  <planetmaker> (it's a Fritz box from AVM)
16:27:27  <planetmaker> so I asked for the images of the current and previous firmware versions. Let's see :) I have both images :P
16:28:53  <krinn> that would be interesting to know what they answer.
16:29:44  <krinn> well, everyone could expect the source of the open source programs use in it :P
16:30:36  <krinn> but i don't why such offer i think you'll get link to busybox or something while they should provide their own busybox version if modified, and pretty sure they don't use a stock one (replace busybox with iptable...)
16:30:46  <planetmaker> linux 2.4 or 2.6 it seems. From install shell script
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16:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you can telnet into the fritz box
16:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a phone code to activate and deactivate telnet interface
16:31:27  <krinn> that's some kind of default router from german telecom provider?
16:31:42  <planetmaker> yes, that, too
16:31:51  <planetmaker> but they also sell it normally
16:32:10  <krinn> lol i didn't think to telnet my router, but it works too
16:32:18  <planetmaker> was better than the one I had before
16:32:44  <Phreeze> it's one of the best router, but not sure if moddable
16:33:08  <Phreeze> every good provider sells them in my country. they are even deploying latest models now, 7490
16:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> there's "freetz" which you can install on it
16:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (but you lose all warranty)
16:33:53  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, there are things like that, you can change country, but it remain the same
16:34:14  <krinn> warranty lost for any reason is popular
16:34:44  <Phreeze> planetmaker : what exactly isn't finished in the mars set ?
16:34:54  <Phreeze> i see coded trains etc here:
16:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: well you can regain warranty by resetting to the original image before asking for warranty
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16:35:13  <Phreeze> (ok alignment of the purchase sprites is not fixed yet)
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16:36:13  <krinn> do you have syslog feature too?
16:36:17  <krinn> sending log to syslog
16:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
16:36:48  <krinn> the router log is sent to another host
16:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
16:37:01  <planetmaker> Phreeze, lots of things not finished, basically everything not :)
16:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> never tried
16:37:11  <krinn> i never login it so, i just look at my log
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16:39:24  <Phreeze> you can let the box send you stuff by mail ^^
16:39:29  <planetmaker> I don't even know myself the exact status of all of them :)
16:39:57  <planetmaker> I think trains are not yet finished. Industries aren't for sure. No idea about houses :)
16:40:43  <Phreeze> cant find a page where you can specify syslog server :-/
16:40:59  <Phreeze> i only can code trains ^^
16:42:03  <Phreeze> isn't zephyris in IRC from time to time ?
16:42:19  <planetmaker> if time-to-time translates to yearly, then yes
16:42:41  <Phreeze> regularly once a year
16:42:53  <planetmaker> I'd not even count on that ;)
16:43:20  <krinn> Phreeze, with a netgear to ?
16:43:41  <krinn> it's last line option of Logs category
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16:47:40  <DanMacK> Hey all
16:47:51  <krinn> hi
16:48:14  <planetmaker> o/
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16:49:37  <planetmaker> hm, for sure that's snow outside. And the wind cannot decide on a direction. Only on 7 and above ;)
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16:54:40  <DanMacK_> Whee
16:55:12  <krinn> <- but not all have the option, it sucks i better remember that when changing it
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17:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's a reason why "april weather" is a common figure of speech
17:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, the web interface of the router is not responding, but it's still routing
17:05:27  <frosch123> the login is exclusive
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17:05:37  <frosch123> only one user can access the router interface at a time
17:05:42  <frosch123> currently the nsa is using it
17:05:49  <planetmaker> :)
17:06:05  <planetmaker> it's a single-user system. So yes
17:06:48  <frosch123> what do you think was the reason for windows becoming multi-user?
17:12:37  <peter1139> Home routers are so shit :(
17:12:45  <peter1139> And all those GPL violations...
17:12:51  <peter1139> Whoops, not that again.
17:13:31  <frosch123> at least there is no admin to break it
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17:31:35  <Phreeze> [18:49:38] <@planetmaker> hm, for sure that's snow outside. And the wind cannot decide on a direction. Only on 7 and above ;)
17:31:37  <Phreeze> snow ???
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17:44:25  <planetmaker> snow. yes. No longer though
17:45:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26464 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-04-14 17:45:28 UTC)
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41  <DorpsGek> belarusian - 4 changes by Wowanxm
17:45:42  <DorpsGek> catalan - 47 changes by juanjo
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by cuthbert
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 4 changes by Tucalipe
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18:09:51  <Wolf01> hi hi
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18:19:53  <frosch123> ciao
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18:21:42  <andythenorth> wot?
18:22:19  <andythenorth> is Wallyweb trying to single-handedly unpick software copyright?
18:22:26  <andythenorth> that's a bold venture
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18:33:03  <Supercheese> "unpick"?
18:35:54  <peter1139> That was short, even for him.
18:43:15  <planetmaker> below average, yes
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19:10:20  <Aristide> o/
19:11:01  <Alberth> hi hi
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19:14:02  <rubidium> bye andy ;)
19:14:54  <andythenorth> bye
19:15:05  <Alberth> hi hi andy
19:16:00  <andythenorth> it’s a good forum day
19:16:42  <frosch123> is there such a thing as a "town council"?
19:16:50  <frosch123> or are there only "city council"s?
19:16:59  <FLHerne> frosch123: Yes
19:17:26  <andythenorth> there are many councils
19:17:32  <andythenorth> in many countries
19:17:53  <FLHerne> Not sure if there's such a thing in current UK adminish stuff, but it's certainly a recognisable term
19:18:13  <andythenorth> frosch123: what’s the context?
19:19:19  <frosch123> ottd has a very specific meanings for city vs. town
19:20:10  <frosch123> <- fs#5988
19:20:43  <andythenorth> for EN British, town council is fine
19:27:11  <frosch123> <- STR_CONFIG_SETTING_RESTRICT_DROPDOWN_HELPTEXT is certainly hard to find a meaningful text for
19:27:47  <andythenorth> it’s because it’s a tricky feature :)
19:28:46  <frosch123> maybe "restrict the list below by seemingly random criterions"
19:29:18  <andythenorth> yes
19:29:22  <andythenorth> or confuse andythenorth
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19:50:25  <NGC3982> "He left us a cyber footprint. Greg is decrypting the ISP right now"
19:50:26  <NGC3982> CSI <3.
19:51:02  <frosch123> does he use a screen magnifier to read the isp?
19:51:24  * FLHerne prevents his computer from being hacked by unplugging the monitor :P
19:52:10  <Phreeze> lol
19:52:13  <Phreeze> never watched csi
19:52:15  <Phreeze> and never will
19:52:16  <FLHerne> Or not, that was NCIS? Same thing, anyway
19:52:56  <frosch123> Phreeze: neither did i, but you cannot escape from certain images on the internet
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19:53:35  <frosch123>
19:55:02  <Phreeze> xD
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20:11:24  <Supercheese> Heh, I just find these oddities in tooltips while translating them
20:11:37  <planetmaker> gather them :)
20:11:44  <rubidium> anything techy in TV/movies is iffy at best
20:11:48  <rubidium> even IP addresses
20:11:56  <Supercheese> I did, and frosch already has patches to fix them as above
20:12:05  <Supercheese> I had reported them on flyspray
20:12:30  <frosch123> i still have no convincing text for the filter dropdown
20:12:40  <Supercheese> Yeah, 'tis tricky
20:12:46  <frosch123> maybe the forum is right, that it is wrong then :)
20:13:44  <Supercheese> if the base strings are changed, that should mark translated strings as "outdated" or such in the webtranslator, yes?
20:13:53  <frosch123> yes
20:13:59  <frosch123> "strings needing validation"
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20:26:36  <Supercheese> Eh, the en_US constant use of "Streetcar" over "Tram" really bugs me
20:26:44  <Supercheese> I've never once called them streetcars
20:27:11  <Supercheese> perhaps it's an East Coast thing
20:29:24  <peter1139> Hmm, my RC (actually IR) helicopter only lasts about 1 minute :(
20:31:50  <andythenorth> signals in tunnels
20:32:43  <Supercheese> signa in cuniculis
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20:42:36  <FLHerne> peter1139: Mine does too. Aws a bit better when it was new
20:42:56  <peter1139> Probably was but I never played with it much really, heh.
20:43:27  <peter1139> And as a cheap plaything it's hardly worth finding a replacement battery if such a thing exists, heh.
20:43:31  <peter1139> , heh.
20:43:38  <planetmaker> hm, our money is (internally) always calculated in GBP and only for display purposes converted to whatever the user choose, right?
20:43:44  <peter1139> Yeah
20:43:56  <peter1139> Feel free to change that.
20:44:03  <planetmaker> so in principle we could use floating point conversions?
20:44:05  <peter1139> Those integer multiples are a bitch.
20:44:07  <frosch123> planetmaker: yes, you cannot make money by trading
20:44:08  <peter1139> Yup
20:44:31  <planetmaker> how's the feeling to adjust the rates to somewhat current rates like in FS 5987?
20:44:36  <frosch123> planetmaker: never do floating points :)
20:44:47  <planetmaker> for display-only?
20:44:57  <peter1139> frosch123, silly
20:45:00  <frosch123> "this costs 19.95" - i have "19.95" - "not enough money"
20:45:25  <peter1139> (int)
20:45:49  <peter1139> Round up the costs, heh
20:45:50  <planetmaker> display_val = (floor)(money * exchange_rate)
20:45:53  <peter1139> I dunno
20:45:57  <peter1139> planetmaker, nah
20:46:03  <frosch123> planetmaker: anyway, aren't our conversion rates exactly those from 2050?
20:46:06  <frosch123> when the game ends
20:46:11  <planetmaker> haha :)
20:46:39  <peter1139> problem is you round the displayed cash, which doesn't help
20:47:51  <frosch123> anyway, i wonder whether we shouldn't do the reverse
20:48:15  <peter1139> ?
20:48:17  <frosch123> why arbitrary precise conversion rates which result in silly things like loan in 145872.412 steps?
20:49:25  <frosch123> so, maybe we should only have factors like 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 and such
20:49:32  <frosch123> so round numbers stay round
20:50:01  <planetmaker> Then we just should get rid of all factors, making them 1. And just call the currencies a custom "unit"
20:50:30  <planetmaker> (which is what I do for myself actually. Custom currency € with exchange rate 1:1 to internal money)
20:50:43  <frosch123> well, while prices are non-sense anyway, a cost of 10000 lira is still different than 10000 pound
20:51:21  <planetmaker> exactly. prices are all nonsense
20:51:23  <frosch123> i guess prices need to match what the player can imagine or so
20:51:27  <planetmaker> so it could just be 10000 money units
20:51:31  <planetmaker> however you call the unit :)
20:52:21  <andythenorth> paxdist is a lot of fun
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20:53:26  <planetmaker> soylentgreendist
20:53:38  <frosch123> but yeah, the extreme case would be to restrict multipliers to 1, 10, 100, 1000 :)
20:53:40  <peter1139> Too many passengers :(
20:53:41  <frosch123> only move the digit
20:54:03  <frosch123> but 2 and 5 are not bad either
20:54:09  <peter1139> Make GBP 100
20:54:10  <planetmaker> we'll get flamed for such decision ;)
20:54:21  <peter1139> Then shift right twice.
20:54:29  <peter1139> Instant fixed-point maths.
20:54:35  <planetmaker> with GBP = 100, other factors are easier
20:54:39  <frosch123> we can make a forum poll :)
20:54:43  <planetmaker> :P
20:55:03  <peter1139> Just makes that 64 bit limit a bit smaller...
20:55:09  <peter1139> Assuming it's still there.
20:55:11  <planetmaker> increasing money accuracy requires a bigger money var, though
20:55:13  <frosch123> do you want loan go in steps of 19748 DM ? or 10000 DM? or 20000 DM ?
20:55:28  <planetmaker> 42DM
20:55:36  <frosch123> planetmaker: if yuo move the digit, you do not need to increase it :p
20:55:36  <__ln__> it would be so wrong to make GBP be something that metric!
20:55:37  <planetmaker> I anyway only use ctrl+click
20:55:45  <frosch123> you can do that in the string drawing :p
20:55:50  <planetmaker> the loan steps are stupid anyway - or are they meanwhile adjusted to inflation?
20:55:55  <peter1139> __ln__, well... GBP _is_ metric.
20:56:01  <planetmaker> 20k steps when an engine costs 1.5 million is stupid anyway
20:56:07  <peter1139> No wait, that's decimal
20:56:17  <frosch123> planetmaker: max loan does not increase either, does it?
20:56:22  <peter1139> Anyone fancy implement LSD support?
20:56:23  <frosch123> i cannot remember
20:56:33  <__ln__> peter1139: currently, and for now, yes.
20:56:35  <planetmaker> I think load max amount does
20:56:38  <peter1139> +ing
20:56:58  <planetmaker> LSD, the thing the Beatles sung of in Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds?
20:57:06  <peter1139> max loan increases with inflation, yeah
20:57:15  <peter1139> LSD... pounds, shillings & pence
20:57:22  <planetmaker> :)
20:57:32  <frosch123> hmm, yeah, indeed, max loan grows
20:57:47  <peter1139> not directly with inflation though
20:57:48  <__ln__> let us not forget William Shatner's cover version of Lucy in the Sky.
20:57:56  <peter1139> Uh
20:58:02  <peter1139> Please, I'd rather we did.
20:58:12  <frosch123> max loan is "(intial_max_loan * inflation) // loan_interval * loan_interval"
20:58:37  <__ln__> for those using spotify:
20:59:09  <peter1139> "Log in to listen for free" ... why even bother with logins...
20:59:41  <planetmaker> scraping your e-mail and selling it
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21:01:09  <__ln__> why the f does it give a login page without a possibility to open the link in the app... must be some improvement.
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21:06:13  <andythenorth> bye
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21:21:33  <idl0r> can you guys release 1.4.1 with the most recent fixes of the 1.4 branch? i just tried it from git and it seems the invalid free / crashes have been fixed there
21:21:44  <idl0r> *please release
21:23:20  <planetmaker> there'll be a 1.4.1-RC1 soon
21:23:42  <idl0r> great, thanks
21:27:37  * rubidium wonders what commit would've fixed an invalid free
21:30:06  <planetmaker> only the -q parameter, it seems :)
21:30:28  <planetmaker> when supplied an invalid filename
21:31:10  <planetmaker> We should at least address the crash on loading of (some) old savegames
21:31:11  <rubidium> that should yield a SIGSEGV
21:31:24  <rubidium> not an invalid free
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21:35:57  <frosch123> nightr
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21:36:07  <planetmaker> idl0r, which crash in particular do you find fixed?
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21:46:17  <Wolf01> ...
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22:06:53  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:32:20  <NGC3982> :D
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22:46:01  <mg_> i have a question about dredging sites. how can i unload sand/stone on shore? i can transport it by ship but i can't seem to figure out how to unload it
22:50:48  *** Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
22:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause> mg_: "transfer and leave empty"
22:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> then pick it up with a train or truck
22:51:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or use cargodist
22:51:57  <mg_> ohh
22:51:59  <mg_> thanks :)
22:52:08  <mg_> its the "transfer" thing
22:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause>  <planetmaker> how's the feeling to adjust the rates to somewhat current rates like in FS 5987? <-- absolutely not. i found it already stupid the last time when DM was changed from 4 to 3
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22:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the change serves no purpose whatsoever...
22:53:07  <Eddi|zuHause> plus it "breaks" the euro conversion
23:03:21  <peter1139> Randomise on startup.
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23:10:53  <LordAro> randomise currency on startup
23:11:02  <LordAro> with no option to change it
23:12:57  <peter1139> And why not prices while we're at it.
23:13:25  <LordAro> sure
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23:21:59  <supermop> hello
23:23:22  <supermop> anyone want to play a fast 128x64 game?
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