Log for #openttd on 16th April 2014:
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04:59:53  <Bobix> hey juzza1, i'm using finnish signals and am lost, can you please tell me which ones are pre/exit?
05:12:47  <Supercheese> can't you use the ? tool to figure it out?
05:12:58  <Supercheese> i.e. build signal, check info
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05:57:18  <Bobix> that did help only a little Supercheese, it only says if it's a block or path signal
05:57:30  <Supercheese> ah, alas
05:57:43  <Phreeze> oh online so early
05:57:53  <Bobix> i'm still up from yesterday
05:57:59  <Bobix> ^__^
05:58:07  <Phreeze> it's 8 am here
05:58:14  <Bobix> 9 here
05:59:27  <Phreeze> were you beating solo hiscores on TTD servers ? :D
05:59:46  <Bobix> i was at a place playing poker
06:00:08  <Bobix> degen like that
06:02:13  <planetmaker> Bobix, the ? tool tells you the exact signal
06:02:22  <planetmaker> if it says 'block signal' it's a plain block signal
06:02:41  <Bobix> let me screen shot for you
06:02:42  <planetmaker> if it's path signal, it's a plain (two-way) path signal
06:03:00  <planetmaker> I have it on my screen and just tested it with each signal type
06:03:25  <planetmaker> as could you by building each signal from the signal selection window
06:04:06  <planetmaker> if it says one-way path signal, it's just that.
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06:04:47  <planetmaker> there's also entry, exit and combo-signals
06:05:35  <Bobix> did you test with the finnish set?
06:05:50  <planetmaker> no. But that does not matter. They cannot rename the signals
06:06:23  <planetmaker> The description and help texts are not subject to NewGRF modification
06:06:29  <planetmaker> only the graphics
06:07:46  <Bobix> sweet i think i sorted it out now
06:07:59  <Bobix> noticed there's a mouseover if you wait long enough too
06:08:43  <planetmaker> that, too.
06:08:57  <planetmaker> in the signal gui
06:09:05  <Bobix> yeah
06:13:59  <Bobix> another question
06:14:28  <Bobix> is there a way to restore the naturally accuring rivers that are on the map from when you start
06:14:33  <Bobix> after you bomb them away
06:16:04  <planetmaker> no. yes, if you save the game, exit openttd, rename the savegame to .scn, start openttd's scenario editor, build rivers, save scenario, load scenario for playing
06:16:17  <Bobix> ugh >__<
06:16:33  <planetmaker> you can skip the step with 'exit openttd'
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06:28:38  <Phreeze> off to the training course....
06:28:40  <Phreeze> laters
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06:45:58  <V453000> hm
06:46:09  <V453000> the camera of rendered stuff doesnt seem to be 45 degrees down
07:04:03  <V453000> oooh having the camera target aligned wrongly isnt helping :D
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07:18:24  <V453000> if the ground tile is 256x128, it must be 45 degrees, or no?
07:19:44  <peter1139>
07:23:43  <V453000> sorcery
07:23:45  <V453000> thanks
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07:32:04  <Flygon> Man
07:32:05  <Flygon> Like
07:32:16  <Flygon> We should totally combine Age of Empires II, and OpenTTD
07:32:17  <Flygon> To like
07:32:25  <Flygon> Create the world's best ever isometric game
07:32:30  <Flygon> Age of Transport II
07:32:54  <TinoDidriksen> So, use trains to transport catapults for your siege?
07:33:22  <Flygon> Horse locos!
07:33:58  <Flygon> Seriously though, still saying that a 1000BC to 2500AC era game would be pneat :B
07:34:10  <Flygon> Just need a super computer, a team of artists, and a public exhibition centre
07:34:22  <Flygon> Where we let the public walk up, and control a certain region, and like
07:34:39  <Flygon> Basically grow the world from scratch and see how it evolves relative to the real world :B
07:34:47  <Flygon> brb, implementing plauge as a game mechanic
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07:39:14  <Flygon> In more seriousness though
07:39:49  <Flygon> Having earlier era transports (eg. horse railways, ships) combined with earlier era appropriate cagro would be neat
07:40:26  <Flygon> Just gotta figure out how to have city growth slow down a tonne... because, y'know, kinda hard to simulate such things as sewerage otherwise without other forms of implementation
07:41:11  <V453000> 30 degrees it is =D
07:41:19  <V453000> never do meth
07:41:44  <planetmaker> sin 30° = 0.5
07:42:53  <V453000> pm I havent done anything with sin cos whatever in years :D I literally completely forgot
07:43:22  * V453000 is dumber than ever
07:44:17  <Flygon> TinoDidriksen: Point is, catapults could be a form of cargo. Just combine Wood, Ropes, and Rock :P
07:45:39  <V453000> :D
07:45:44  <V453000> far from complete but (:
07:47:17  <planetmaker> V453000, the light should come from around where the depot is. maybe one, two tiles to the right
07:47:24  <planetmaker> it seems to come from much further right, though
07:47:38  <V453000> yeah I didnt quite fiddle with that yet
07:47:53  <planetmaker> the shadow seems too strong, too. You also need more ambient light
07:48:45  <peter1139> Needs to be more diffuse. Also fit the stone into the tilearea to save effort.
07:49:22  <peter1139> (It almost fits anyway)
07:50:07  <V453000> shitload of effort to render the things into separate tiles anyway, one stone is not a problem :D
07:50:14  <V453000> lighting needs work, I agree
07:51:19  <peter1139> Next step, animate it ;)
07:51:39  <planetmaker> ignoring the lighting, looking good
07:51:59  <V453000> peter1139: there are going to be creatures on it (:
07:52:04  <V453000> animated
07:52:14  <peter1139> Nice
07:52:15  <planetmaker> you might touch the transition line grass / pit. To be a bit more irregular.
07:53:05  <planetmaker> except that it looks nice, logically one has to ask why they first dig a pit, and then use high ladders to climb on the rock, though :)
07:53:24  <V453000> there will probably be no grass in the end
07:53:28  <peter1139> Why does V453000 need logic?
07:53:28  <V453000> unknown
07:53:29  <V453000> but yeah
07:53:44  <peter1139> planetmaker, sounds like REALISM! Nooo!
07:53:46  <planetmaker> ok, Yetis are dumb. Fair enough :)
07:53:48  <V453000> planetmaker, the "stone mine" aleready looks slightly unlogical (:
07:53:54  <V453000> exactly
07:53:59  <V453000> dumb and fat
07:54:01  <V453000> perfect workers
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08:44:54  <peter1139> heh @ xkcd
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08:50:55  <V453000>  /opinion that zbase looks terrible increases
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08:59:40  <peter1139> Hmm, apparently I hadn't updated libssl on the uk openttd mirror :p
08:59:48  <peter1139> (SSL isn't used so no issue)
09:29:18  <peter1139> Err... why do I have the complete archive of Gopher on my system?
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10:22:15  <mg_> hey. i'm playing starting from year 1830. it's now 1846. do first trains appear in 1925 ?
10:22:49  <Xaroth|Work> depensd on which newgrf you use
10:25:19  <mg_> good point
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13:19:15  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
13:19:15  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 31 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
13:20:03  <DanMacK> hey all
13:20:15  <planetmaker> hi
13:20:49  <DanMacK> how goes it?
13:20:58  <peter1139> He's missed his daily pop-on-for-3-minutes spot.
13:21:31  <planetmaker> not bad at all.
13:21:47  <planetmaker> Just got today a new optical toy to play with over Easter :)
13:21:50  <DanMacK> lol peter
13:21:53  <DanMacK> nice
13:22:07  <planetmaker> 400mm tele lens :)
13:22:26  <DanMacK> ooooh sweet
13:22:50  <planetmaker> yup, first impression is great
13:22:51  <DanMacK> for what csmera?
13:22:57  <planetmaker> canon EOS
13:23:15  <DanMacK> nice indeed
13:23:31  <planetmaker> got still an older model there, but might upgrade that somewhen, too
13:23:52  <DanMacK> older as in non digital?
13:23:59  <planetmaker> 30D still. But that works very well for me. Yes, digital.
13:24:13  <planetmaker> Though I also have an analogue one, still. but don't use it anymore really
13:24:30  <DanMacK> ahhh friend of mine gad a Minolta 9xi analog
13:24:46  <DanMacK> yeah why use it when theres digital
13:25:06  <planetmaker> it's not like their quality would be better
13:25:17  <DanMacK>  exactly
13:25:36  <planetmaker> couldn't carry as many film rolls with me :P
13:25:54  <peter1139> "analog" :p
13:26:08  <DanMacK> well yeah more space for lenses
13:26:33  <planetmaker> especially when you try to catch wild life, there's usually a lot of shots which are not that great when the targets move
13:26:35  <DanMacK> what would u call it lol
13:26:59  <planetmaker> chemical film is analgue to me...?
13:27:00  <DanMacK> yeah digital is sooo much better for that
13:27:17  <planetmaker> yup, much so
13:27:27  <DanMacK> i was talking to peter :}
13:27:41  <DanMacK> same with trains
13:27:43  <planetmaker> yup, was just supporting your question :)
13:27:47  <planetmaker> yeah, also there
13:28:26  <DanMacK> so youve tried thr iron horse alpha?
13:28:57  <planetmaker> indeed I did. Not overly long so far, just a short time into a map. Looks lovely
13:29:05  <DanMacK> thanks
13:29:23  <DanMacK> thats just the first of a number of rostrrs
13:29:35  <planetmaker> are you going to draw 2x zoom sprites? :D
13:29:53  <planetmaker> or 4x :P ?
13:30:00  <DanMacK> thought about it but alot more work lol
13:30:15  <planetmaker> yeah, that's the definitive backdraw
13:30:18  <DanMacK> started a couple yhough
13:30:40  <DanMacK> trust me Id love to
13:31:28  <DanMacK> Id love to see a complete 8 bit redraw of opengfx at those zoom levels too lol
13:31:40  <planetmaker> indeed, yes
13:31:55  <planetmaker> actually, a redraw at 4x would likely suffice. 2x can be skipped
13:32:14  <planetmaker> generally, 2x can be skipped :)
13:32:17  <DanMacK> 32 bit is cool but I prefer 8bit
13:32:20  <DanMacK> yeah
13:32:43  <planetmaker> well, depends on how it's used. Not much great use of 32bpp so far
13:32:58  <DanMacK> well alot of iron horse bits can be recycled for different rosters
13:33:04  <DanMacK> yeah
13:33:31  <planetmaker> I've also briefly tested and looked at pikkas pineapple trains. There the 32bpp looks quite lovely
13:33:39  <DanMacK> yeah
13:34:31  <V453000> on a similar note, when I render stuff, should I render both 4x and 1x? and eventually 2x? or can I just make x4 and let it solve itself?
13:34:52  <DanMacK> well weve got a few more rosters in progress/planning
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13:36:13  <planetmaker> speaking of the devil? :)
13:36:16  <DanMacK> were your ears ringing andy?
13:36:17  <V453000> :)
13:36:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: lack of ‘releases’ here - just because I haven’t made any recently?
13:36:26  <andythenorth> should I read logs :P
13:36:40  <DanMacK> nahhh
13:36:48  <DanMacK> all good things lol
13:37:01  <planetmaker> V453000, from my experience, 4x is mandatory and 1x might be a good idea. 2x is not necessary.
13:37:13  <V453000> aye
13:37:24  <planetmaker> V453000, probably lots of lighting / shading issues in pota-ghat would go, if I provided anything else other than 4x
13:37:25  <V453000> well, easy to just change resolution and re-render :)
13:37:30  <planetmaker> that's the only 32bpp sprites it has
13:37:36  <V453000> right
13:37:52  <planetmaker> so maybe it needs slightly adjusted settings. dunno
13:37:53  <V453000> thanks (:
13:38:04  <DanMacK> planetmaker was just asking me if we were going to do 4x sprites for ih lol
13:38:12  <planetmaker> hehe :P
13:38:34  <andythenorth> I won’t be :P
13:38:42  <andythenorth> but I wouldn’t mind if someone else did :P
13:38:45  <andythenorth> my eyes get older
13:38:50  <andythenorth> my screen gets higher-resolution
13:38:56  <DanMacK> I might
13:38:59  <V453000> go minionize DanMacK
13:39:02  <planetmaker> balances itself out, andythenorth ? :P
13:39:16  <planetmaker> V453000, why 'go'? It's more a 'further' :P
13:39:25  <V453000> :D:
13:39:26  <V453000> k
13:39:33  <DanMacK> if Im just doing 4x
13:40:03  <DanMacK> heading out bbiab
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13:40:34  <planetmaker> that was... just as quick as andy :P
13:40:43  <andythenorth> he comes, he goes
13:41:14  <andythenorth> also planetmaker that bundles questioN?
13:41:21  <andythenorth> N / n /s
13:42:23  <planetmaker> sorry, can you point me to the question / repeat it?
13:43:09  <andythenorth> no releases here - probably because I haven’t made any since bundles got rebuilt?  Or a .devzone config issue?
13:44:11  <planetmaker> hm, the old ones should be there, whenever made.
13:46:16  <andythenorth> I wondered
13:46:52  <planetmaker> it's physically not on the bundles server. I might have forgotten to copy it when I transferred stuff to the current VM
13:47:09  <planetmaker> a new release would have re-created it. I'll try dig the old ones
13:47:23  <planetmaker> thanks for the hint
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13:51:46  <V453000> planetmaker: may I ask for a new project YETI Extended Towns & Industries , abbreviation yeti? :D
13:52:08  <V453000> pretty please (:
13:53:15  <peter1139> andythenorth,
13:53:37  <andythenorth> yeah that
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13:54:37  <planetmaker> V453000, sorry, no. I can only allow it without "Extended" :P
13:54:45  <V453000> what why :D
13:54:54  <V453000> extended aing fitting? :D
13:55:00  <andythenorth> bbl
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13:55:07  <planetmaker> It's like *New*GRF.
13:55:29  <planetmaker> (honestly, I don't care much how you name it. Just joking)
13:55:30  <V453000> YETI ExtendedGRF Town & Industries
13:55:32  <V453000> :D
13:55:35  <V453000> I know :P
13:56:01  <V453000> I just couldnt think about something more fitting YETI acronym
13:56:51  <V453000> any better ideas? =(
13:56:51  <planetmaker> oh, it's an acronym :P
13:57:04  <planetmaker> I honestly totally missed that :D
13:57:11  <V453000> ? :D
13:57:22  <V453000> OH :D
13:57:23  <planetmaker> YETI because... yeti :)
13:57:57  <V453000> mhm
13:57:58  <planetmaker> anyway, all yours. Just help yourself.
13:57:59  <planetmaker>
13:58:02  <V453000> (. tanks
13:58:04  <V453000> (:
13:59:18  <V453000> wait the newGRF isnt done yet
13:59:27  <V453000>  I thought you would also make the newGRF when creating the project
13:59:28  <planetmaker> oh :(
13:59:29  <V453000> I have been tricked!
13:59:36  <planetmaker> damn, you notice
13:59:38  <planetmaker> fast
13:59:47  <V453000> ok I feed it one image lets see if that helps
14:00:01  <planetmaker> let's activate translators. Let them do it ;)
14:00:13  <V453000> :d
14:00:45  <V453000> (.
14:00:46  <V453000> (:
14:00:50  <planetmaker> devzone is the biggest out-sourcing of work I could think of ;)
14:00:57  <V453000> :)
14:01:56  <V453000>  /me goes back to modelling a stupid hole in teh ground
14:02:04  <planetmaker> tehehe :)
14:02:47  <V453000> ALSO
14:02:55  <V453000> the ladders are there because the rock fell from the sky
14:02:56  <V453000> 100% logical
14:03:16  <planetmaker> of course!
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16:11:21  <Phreeze> anybody know a project that has nml code and wagons that have loading sprites ?
16:11:49  <Phreeze> yoshi drew me some wagons, but they have 4 loading states ;) need to code them now
16:12:18  <V453000>
16:12:24  <Phreeze> thx
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16:14:22  <Phreeze> only 50000 lines of code...
16:14:57  <V453000> just search for loading
16:15:09  <V453000> and you know how to make the spritegroup
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16:15:52  <Phreeze> loading: [
16:15:52  <Phreeze> spriteset_SHIexpress_C4T_gold_1_load0,
16:15:52  <Phreeze> spriteset_SHIexpress_C4T_gold_1_load1,
16:15:57  <Phreeze> easy :)
16:16:01  <V453000> exactly
16:22:05  <Phreeze> in your code, you got 8 states, how does the game know i have 4 states ?
16:22:06  <Phreeze> or 2 ?
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16:22:32  <Phreeze> does it auto-calculate  "max capacity of wagon" divided by "number of states in spritegroup" ?
16:23:14  <Phreeze> spritegroup sg_fcs_coal {
16:23:14  <Phreeze> 	loading: [
16:23:14  <Phreeze> set_fcs_coal_000,
16:23:14  <Phreeze> set_fcs_coal_025
16:23:14  <Phreeze> set_fcs_coal_075
16:23:16  <Phreeze> ];
16:23:16  <Phreeze> 	loaded:  [
16:23:18  <Phreeze> set_fcs_coal_100
16:23:18  <Phreeze> ];
16:23:23  <Phreeze> can't imagine that it's like that ?
16:26:30  <Phreeze> your loading and loaded code is twice the
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16:32:17  <V453000> just provide 2 or 4
16:32:33  <V453000> or any number you want
16:32:42  <V453000> it will sort itself out
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16:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> <Phreeze> does it auto-calculate  "max capacity of wagon" divided by "number of states in spritegroup" ? <-- yes
16:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Phreeze: but your example is wrong
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16:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Phreeze: "loading" is while at station, "loaded" is while travelling. both need all loading stages
16:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Phreeze: so you have "loading {0-25,25-50,50-75,75-100} loaded {0-25,25-50,50-75,75-100}
16:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want other distribution of trigger points, you need a switch statement
16:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> (i do it that way in CETS, for various reasons)
16:40:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (although i currently have no wagon with actual graphics for that. i've been meaning to fix that)
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16:47:08  <Phreeze> why does travlleing have dofferent stages ?!? weird
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16:55:48  <LordAro> quak
16:59:59  <frosch123> hola
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17:10:13  <Phreeze> hi
17:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> <Phreeze> why does travlleing have dofferent stages ?!? weird <-- to have like open and closed doors and stuff
17:17:48  <peter1139> and partially filled stuff
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17:31:44  <frosch123> i am still waiting for pikka's tripping trucks
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17:34:05  <DanMacK> hey all
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17:36:53  <frosch123> andy is next probably
17:37:04  <peter1139> :)
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17:41:08  <Phreeze> i dont get that opengfx+ code
17:41:14  <Phreeze> switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, bulk_wagon_switch, cargo_type_in_veh) {
17:41:14  <Phreeze> 315
17:41:14  <Phreeze>     AORE: bulk_wagon_bauxite_year_switch;
17:41:33  <Phreeze> that bulk_xxxxxxxx_year_switch .... makes no sense to me
17:42:16  <frosch123> why?
17:42:18  <Phreeze> for me, there must be a switch somewhere that has that name
17:42:46  <frosch123> maybe there are macros
17:42:57  <Phreeze> #define THIS_ID(...) bulk_wagon ## __VA_ARGS__
17:42:57  <Phreeze> 22
17:43:06  <Phreeze> no clue aboutthat ^^
17:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> well it's a bit preprocessor magic
17:43:50  <Phreeze> perhaps it automatically adds "bauxite" and "switch" .. as arguments
17:44:58  <frosch123> <- that is the source after macro expansion
17:45:15  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26466 trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt (2014-04-16 17:45:09 UTC)
17:45:16  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 1 changes by Brumi
17:45:28  <frosch123> switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, bulk_wagon_bauxite_year_switch, build_year < 1970) { 1: bulk_wagon_bauxite_early_switch_gui; bulk_wagon_bauxite_modern_switch_gui; }
17:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically a slightly toned down version of how CETS does it :p
17:47:09  <Phreeze> i think i'll stick with manually adding stuff
17:47:21  <Phreeze> just not sure if i need those properties:
17:47:24  <Phreeze> 382
17:47:24  <Phreeze>         WAGON_PROPERTIES_RAIL_DEFAULT
17:47:24  <Phreeze> 383
17:47:24  <Phreeze>         REFIT_PROPERTIES_BULK
17:47:35  <Phreeze> is it part of an usual code, or is it "magic" too ? :)
17:50:33  <frosch123> Phreeze:
17:50:33  <frosch123> lots of examples there
17:50:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's all just "i'm too lazy to repeat this stuff all the time"
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17:50:33  <frosch123> it's not a matter of lazyness
17:51:51  <Phreeze> i did C...11 years ago :)
17:52:08  <peter1139> It's not C.
17:52:31  <Phreeze> sort of..
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17:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it has nothing really to do with C. it's just the preprocessor is likely available eerywhere anyway, that's why it was used
17:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> any other macro language would have done the job as well
17:55:48  <Phreeze> i'm having a look at the dach code
17:56:01  <Phreeze> it's macro preprocessiing-whatever free^^
17:56:03  <Phreeze> perfect for noobs
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18:00:39  <peter1139> Eddi|zuHause, could've used M4.
18:00:47  <peter1139> Like a certain German.
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18:06:04  <Phreeze> Unrecognized identifier 'COAL' encountered
18:06:09  <Phreeze> gna.....
18:06:21  <Phreeze> doesn't recognize coal as a cargo...
18:06:36  <Phreeze> switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF,sw_fcs,cargo_type_in_veh) {
18:06:36  <Phreeze> 	COAL: sg_fcs_coal;
18:07:49  <Wolf01> hello o/
18:07:51  <APTX> to me, all this looks horrible
18:09:16  <Phreeze> lol
18:09:30  <Phreeze> it's pretty easy after you have followed the nml tutorial
18:13:29  <Phreeze> speaking of trains:
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18:21:59  <andythenorth> o/
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18:24:28  <peter1139> frosch123, bit early
18:32:05  <andythenorth> what next?
18:32:12  <andythenorth> I got totally bored of my game
18:32:33  <andythenorth> lack of working cdist for freight
18:32:43  <andythenorth> and Full FIRS is stupid
18:33:08  <peter1139> cdist doesn't work?
18:33:19  <andythenorth> “doesn’t work how I want"
18:38:19  <andythenorth> really, people care that much about loading times?
18:38:21  <andythenorth> :o
18:38:27  <andythenorth>
18:38:42  <andythenorth> it’s just a fricking train game
18:40:19  <peter1139> -train
18:41:38  <Phreeze> mostly train ;)
18:41:52  <Phreeze> andythenorth
18:42:01  <Phreeze> ->
18:42:01  <Phreeze> [20:06:38] <Phreeze> switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF,sw_fcs,cargo_type_in_veh) {
18:42:02  <Phreeze> [20:06:38] <Phreeze> 	COAL: sg_fcs_coal;
18:42:12  <Phreeze> why does my *%/(*% nmlc says that COAL is unrecognized ?
18:42:22  <andythenorth> ?
18:42:31  <andythenorth> you got a cargo table?
18:42:35  <Phreeze> hm
18:42:37  <Phreeze> :D
18:43:50  <andythenorth> nmlc hates you if the label isn’t in the cargo table
18:45:54  <Phreeze> i know nothing about nml ... i hate it :)
18:51:51  <Phreeze> Read beyond bounds of image file 'src/gfx/fcs.png'  <----------- that is weird too. i checked it, template goes until pixel 176, image is about 200 wide.... there is NO out of bounds..stupid nml
18:53:39  <rubidium> unless the image is 175 pixels high and that's the y coordinate
18:54:13  <rubidium> I doubt that nml is wrong about that bounds check by such a large margin
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19:02:38  <idl0r> rubidium: hm, even with xdg 1.2.0 i get those segfaults
19:03:08  <andythenorth> Phreeze: you’re wrong :)
19:03:19  <andythenorth> paste your code for that sprite and I’ll tell you why
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19:03:35  <andythenorth> nml is one of the least stupid tools I use
19:04:23  <idl0r> rubidium: and now even with 1.4 git branch
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19:08:02  <andythenorth> o/
19:08:07  <Alberth> evenink
19:08:28  * andythenorth is bored
19:08:31  <andythenorth> dice wars?
19:09:21  <idl0r> rubidium:
19:11:07  <rubidium> idl0r: can you run it with valgrind?
19:12:08  <idl0r> and this happens on exit when running it from inside of the git repo
19:13:36  <idl0r> rubidium:
19:15:44  <rubidium> idl0r: line #31 of the last paste is the first invalid write, which is a call in libxdg-basedir
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19:18:36  <rubidium> actually, all invalid writes are in libxdg-basedir... so the library is likely causing the corruption of the malloc metadata
19:18:41  <peter1139> I'm getting dejavu
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19:22:55  <Phreeze> it's ok andythenorth
19:22:59  <idl0r> in src/fileio.cpp: #ifdef WITH_XDG_BASEDIR
19:23:01  <idl0r> #include "basedir.h"
19:23:03  <idl0r> #endif
19:23:12  <idl0r> shouldn't that be <basedir.h> of libxdg-basedir?
19:23:51  * andythenorth considers watching TV
19:24:35  * idl0r is doing that already
19:25:40  <rubidium> idl0r: hmm, maybe... though that doesn't cause this bug
19:25:49  <andythenorth> spose I could work on newgrfs :P
19:25:57  <andythenorth> where is V453000 ?
19:26:08  <V453000> rocks
19:26:13  <V453000> all I see is rocks
19:26:22  <V453000> yo andythenorth if you felt like coding an industry set ... :)
19:26:30  <V453000> I would be more than willing to provide sprites
19:26:31  <andythenorth> yair, but no
19:26:34  <V453000> see
19:26:36  <andythenorth> I have questions
19:26:43  <V453000> oo
19:26:46  <andythenorth> (1) wtf do you play “Full FIRS"
19:26:51  <andythenorth> it’s totally stupid and broken
19:26:57  <idl0r> rubidium: yeah, i just stumbled over it while finding the real cause
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19:27:08  <V453000> (1) I prefer Basic Temperate  cuz all things can make supplies
19:27:12  <andythenorth> +1
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19:27:22  <V453000> ports are awesum because they force people to connect multiple of them to 1 network
19:27:24  <andythenorth> Full FIRS should be deleted
19:27:33  <Phreeze> lol
19:27:38  <Phreeze> is it a BAD FEATURE ?
19:27:42  <andythenorth> yes
19:27:43  * Phreeze ducks
19:27:52  <andythenorth> V I was considering adding a Farm Supply depot to Full FIRS
19:27:59  <andythenorth> but I decided yesterday I hated it
19:28:03  <V453000> I would fully agree with that idea
19:28:05  <andythenorth> and am not adding any more to it
19:28:15  <andythenorth> it’s really bad
19:28:16  <Phreeze> lol
19:28:21  <V453000> but then you still get shit like clay and stone/sand
19:28:33  <V453000> out of which idk what can make supplies
19:28:42  <Phreeze> just transport it
19:28:45  <Phreeze> like in real life...
19:29:01  <V453000> I transport only myself in real life
19:29:50  <andythenorth> I am just going to leave Full FIRS alone
19:29:53  <andythenorth> as a warning to others
19:29:56  <andythenorth> I might rename it
19:29:59  <andythenorth> “Don’t play this"
19:30:01  <V453000> :D
19:30:06  <andythenorth> can I delete it?
19:30:07  <andythenorth> please?
19:30:13  <V453000> idk :D
19:30:27  <Phreeze> whos the author of firs ?
19:30:47  * Phreeze looks it up
19:30:58  <V453000> LOL
19:31:01  <Phreeze> ah andy
19:31:02  <Phreeze> lol
19:31:06  <Phreeze> he hates his own grf :D
19:31:24  <Phreeze> i didnt get it what heart of darkness meant
19:31:37  <Phreeze> remembered me of starcraft
19:31:41  <Supercheese> what's the quote, perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away
19:31:42  <Phreeze> or world of warcraft or so...
19:31:57  <Supercheese> andy and Pikka both seem to be now abiding by that principle :P
19:32:01  <Phreeze> so NULL = perfection ?
19:32:02  <andythenorth> Phreeze: lmgtfy
19:32:07  <andythenorth> actually I can’t be bothered
19:32:18  <Supercheese> it's colonial
19:32:27  <Supercheese> like africa or some such
19:32:42  <andythenorth> should this road vehicle set include a straddle carrier for containers?
19:32:42  <Supercheese>
19:32:45  <andythenorth> it’s kind of stupid?
19:32:46  <Supercheese> Congo eh
19:32:50  <andythenorth> I could remove it later
19:32:52  <Phreeze> have you read the book andy ?
19:33:00  <andythenorth> Phreeze: what do you think? o_O
19:33:04  <Phreeze> no ? :D
19:33:09  <andythenorth> the other one
19:33:14  <Phreeze> nay ?
19:33:16  <Phreeze> :P
19:33:37  <Supercheese> Neigh
19:33:49  <Phreeze> "years ago" (TM) i tried a game with firs
19:34:07  <Phreeze> i was completely overcrowded by too many industries, i instantly disabled it in fear ''
19:37:49  <andythenorth> sounds like a forum report
19:38:37  <Phreeze> lol why :D
19:38:46  <Phreeze> it didn't say it was a bad feature
19:38:54  <peter1139> BAD FEATURE
19:38:57  <Phreeze> i think i did chose FULL
19:39:06  <Phreeze> *BAD FEATURE . excuse me
19:39:43  <andythenorth> I could rename it BAD FIRS Economy?
19:39:53  <andythenorth> or STRONGBAD FIRS
19:40:00  <Phreeze> just rename it INSANE Economy
19:40:12  <V453000> :D
19:40:22  <V453000> grim and mean
19:40:26  <V453000> means bad? :P
19:40:39  <frosch123> "insane" does not fit
19:40:43  <andythenorth> V453000: so I really can’t be fucked to fix farms in Full FIRS, but I will think up more interesting economies
19:40:50  <V453000> (:
19:41:00  <andythenorth> V453000: you fix it :P
19:41:12  <V453000> I can only give you scheme, I make yeti in the meantime :P
19:41:26  <andythenorth> ok, how about I add a farm supply depot, and it accidentally turns up in Full FIRS, with no warranty?
19:41:38  <frosch123> call it "greedy", "hoggish" or "braggnig"
19:43:28  <andythenorth> I even have sprites already
19:44:16  <V453000> I always liked the old FS depot.
19:44:19  <peter1139> andythenorth's newgrfs are like my patches
19:44:34  <peter1139> loads of them around, all unfinished and never going to see the light of day :p
19:44:44  <andythenorth> speak for yourself :P
19:45:01  <andythenorth> most of my are v1.0 so officially No Longer My Problem
19:45:06  <andythenorth> my / mine /s
19:45:25  * andythenorth checks if that is true
19:45:55  <andythenorth> HEQS done, and killed, CHIPS done, FIRS done.
19:46:02  <andythenorth> FISH
hmm, don’t talk about that one
19:46:07  <Supercheese> I think many of us tend to make some grfs for personal use that never get distributed
19:46:09  <andythenorth> BANDIT killed
19:46:18  <Phreeze> HEQS is cool
19:46:19  <Supercheese> and then some more, and then some more...
19:46:21  <andythenorth> HEQS is dead
19:46:24  <V453000> andythenorth: I had something like this in mind some time ago
19:46:28  <Phreeze> i use the big phat loaders :D
19:46:34  <Supercheese> HEQS has achieved enlightenment
19:46:37  <V453000> workers can be ignored
19:46:41  <Supercheese> and transcended normal newgrf existence
19:46:43  <V453000> key is 1 chain supporting the other and vice versa
19:47:09  <andythenorth> V453000: you’re making shovels for mining?
19:47:13  <andythenorth> and boots?
19:47:19  <V453000> I guess :D
19:47:28  <andythenorth> apparently the only way to get rich in a gold rush :P
19:47:29  <Phreeze> you should play minecraft...
19:47:34  <V453000> I mean, you could deliver food to workers too
19:48:22  <andythenorth> V453000: the name has to be FRUIT
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19:49:20  <V453000> the farming mayhem would be nice
19:49:28  <V453000> FARM Adds Real Mayhem was my original intention
19:49:45  <andythenorth> MAYHEM
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19:51:29  <andythenorth> peter1139: where is RoadTypes? o_O
19:52:00  <andythenorth> V453000: I have often considered some kind of Market
19:52:10  <andythenorth> deliver in [whatever] get FMSP
19:52:18  <peter1139> Why bother? They'd only be a bad feature
19:52:23  <andythenorth> well yes
19:52:27  <andythenorth> but then we’d know
19:52:31  <andythenorth> now we can only guess
19:52:42  <andythenorth> also it might amuse me
19:52:43  <andythenorth> or you
19:52:47  <andythenorth> mostly you
19:53:53  <Supercheese> Rooooadtypessss
19:53:54  <andythenorth> V453000: is there a place for industries that trade instead of process?  That’s what the ports do.  It breaks all the ‘rules'
19:54:18  <V453000> I mean, why not, it is a great hack to fix "not sensible" chains
19:54:56  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26467 trunk/src/gfx.cpp (2014-04-16 19:54:51 UTC)
19:54:57  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Include shadow on ...
19:55:07  <Supercheese> need a NoClip variable so elevated rails can run above roads can run above subways
19:55:29  <Supercheese> or heck, just disable all vehicle collisions
19:55:34  <Supercheese> bad feature D:
19:55:44  <peter1139> 3d maps
19:55:52  <peter1139> like bnsmatz had once
19:56:22  <frosch123> lol, how do you remember the "b.n." ?
20:01:59  <andythenorth> V453000: so a Market is like a port, rate limited on production
20:02:30  <V453000> I think it is a great thing
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20:05:21  <andythenorth> V453000: what does it produce and accept?
20:05:23  <andythenorth> I could just add port
20:05:28  <andythenorth> code is there
20:05:35  <V453000> that is the trick :D anything you want it to
20:05:46  <andythenorth> what, you want me to design it :P
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20:06:32  <andythenorth> you suck :P
20:07:32  *** kais58|AFK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09:18  <andythenorth> I dunno, accept Wool, Grain, Fruit
20:09:21  <andythenorth> produce FMSP
20:09:33  <V453000> I will give it some thought :P
20:09:42  <andythenorth> needs two output cargos
20:10:08  <andythenorth> you can see I really care about making this one good :)
20:10:17  <V453000> :D yes :)
20:10:32  <andythenorth> I am never going to play Full FIRS ever again
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20:13:07  <V453000> or just making 1 kind of supplies :|
20:13:17  <V453000> but that isnt quite optimal
20:13:25  <idl0r> rubidium: hm, that's weird
20:13:32  <V453000> at best have 2 or 3 kinds of supplies, while no primary can produce its own supplies
20:13:35  <idl0r> it's not xdg itself it seems
20:13:38  <V453000> so they are dependent on some other thing
20:13:48  <V453000> -> means people like to connect more stuff
20:13:53  <idl0r> Breakpoint 1, DeterminePaths (exe=0x7fffffffd5d0 "/home/idl0r/openttd-1.4-git/bin/openttd") at /home/idl0r/openttd-1.4-git/src/fileio.cpp:1282
20:14:09  <idl0r> it fails to free dir=/home/idl0r/.openttd/scenario/heightmap/
20:14:41  <idl0r> which is strlen is 40+1
20:14:50  <idl0r> which has been allocated
20:15:17  <idl0r> ah, wait
20:15:38  * idl0r tries something
20:16:02  <rubidium> the problem is that xdg-basedir did write beyond its buffer, likely corrupting the memory structures used for allocation
20:16:53  <idl0r> but dir is a pointer created by openttd and allocated/filled through str_fmt
20:17:25  <idl0r> and that memcpy failed to write 1 byte according to valgrind
20:17:39  <andythenorth> V453000: I thought you were +1 on primary making own supplies? :o
20:17:46  <andythenorth> I misunderstood?
20:18:09  <V453000> it is better if someone else makes them for them
20:18:12  <V453000> point is consistent system
20:18:43  <V453000> ( in such case no industry is able to make its own supplies )
20:18:56  <andythenorth> so I really like HoD
20:19:02  <andythenorth> which does allow making own supplies
20:19:09  <andythenorth> but it’s all just trading, no long chains
20:19:17  <andythenorth> long chains are over-rated
20:20:23  <V453000> well trading makes it one huge chain :P
20:21:01  <andythenorth> I bailed on my FIRS game last night
20:21:23  <andythenorth> have to get coal to make steel, 20 tile trip, then iron ore (10 tiles), then scrap metal (50 tiles)
20:21:35  <andythenorth> then haul the steel 100 tiles to make ENSP
20:21:40  <andythenorth> then haul the ENSP back to get more coal
20:21:46  <rubidium> idl0r: invalid reads do not cause invalid frees, writing beyond a buffer can
20:21:47  <andythenorth> then haul more metal to foundry
20:22:01  <rubidium> idl0r: any idea how memory is managed by malloc?
20:22:02  <andythenorth> then find oil to make chemicals for foundry
20:22:03  <andythenorth> boring
20:22:36  <andythenorth> can’t even use cdist to build spine routes with feeders
20:24:02  <andythenorth> last time I tried spine routes, cdist seemed to get very confused and was back-loading or wrong-way loading cargo
20:25:21  <rubidium> idl0r: in any case, if you allocate say 10 bytes, you will actually allocate a bit more (a few bytes for status information). This memory is before the pointer you get returned.
20:27:08  <rubidium> now you allocate a new piece of memory which, and by chance (or rather due to the alloc size) it places this new (m)allocation directly before the previously malloced data. You now write beyond the just allocated buffer, which means you write into the status information of the first allocation
20:28:07  <rubidium> upon freeing the first allocation it notices something is wrong, and it throws an invalid free because a "totally" unrelated allocation overwrote its allocated buffer
20:31:12  <rubidium> once the corruption occured, it can take a while for it to actually manifest
20:35:15  <idl0r> rubidium: you're right
20:35:33  <Xaroth|Work> he often is
20:35:44  <idl0r> i thought that was coming from openttd's DeterminePaths
20:35:46  <idl0r> heh :D
20:36:03  <V453000> just ignore cdist andy :)
20:36:32  <frosch123> V453000: we just need a gs that punishes waiting cargo
20:36:33  <rubidium> in any case, as long as libxdg-basedir writes beyond bounds, I am not going to chase an invalid free. Especially when you can trivially prove that there can't be two frees
20:36:40  <frosch123> then andy will also get used to cdist
20:36:48  <V453000> (:
20:36:56  <V453000> cdist is just useless
20:37:05  <rubidium> idl0r: the invalid writes are "triggered" by Determine[Base]Paths calling a libxdg-basedir function
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20:38:58  <andythenorth> anyway, here are my stupid metro systems
20:39:07  <andythenorth> 1 tile trains, 200 pax
20:39:13  <andythenorth> only 40mph
20:39:33  <rubidium> sounds like the green line in Boston
20:39:42  <andythenorth> a lot of tinkering effort to build :P
20:40:09  <andythenorth> signals in stations anyone? :P
20:40:57  <idl0r> rubidium: and i just found the root cause
20:41:38  <idl0r> line 579
20:42:12  <idl0r> fallbacklength+1
20:42:20  <rubidium> so... they didn't fix the bug... yay
20:43:09  <idl0r> just added +1 on that malloc and everything is fine
20:43:38  <frosch123> seriously? what kind of bug is that?
20:43:55  <rubidium> frosch123: malloc(strlen), memcpy(strlen+1)
20:44:02  <frosch123> ah, nevermind, i missed the malloc
20:44:07  <frosch123> so, just obiwan
20:44:39  <frosch123> i read it as strdup, memcpy to cat
20:44:53  <idl0r> i'll prepare a patch for gentoo and fordward it to upstream (in case he's still active)
20:45:02  <rubidium> it's pretty dead
20:45:10  <idl0r> thought so
20:45:12  <idl0r> well
20:45:24  <idl0r> i can forward that to the debian guys as well
20:45:28  <idl0r> if there's none already
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20:47:02  <blathijs> rubidium: Wasn't this that bug you reported a few months back already?
20:47:24  <frosch123>
20:48:05  <idl0r>
20:48:35  <idl0r> ok, i'll take that one then
20:48:55  <rubidium> <- the debian code
20:49:17  <idl0r> ah, good
20:50:57  <rubidium> I thought it was fixed upstream, but it wasn't... she just merged my fix into the packaging... ah well
20:51:00  <idl0r> hrm.. has github no "patch" function? :(
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20:51:33  <idl0r> well.. i'll just clone the other repo
20:52:02  <frosch123> <- the changelog says "new upstream release" though
20:52:32  <idl0r> upstream homepage is no longer available
20:52:40  <idl0r> just the repos on github and so on
20:52:53  <rubidium> idl0r: check the debian package, maybe that has a more up-to-date link
20:53:00  <frosch123> hmm, ah, "1.2" is only new to debian, but it is from 2012 nevertheless
20:53:09  <andythenorth> maybe I should make a Brit economy for FIRS
20:53:19  <andythenorth> produces: moaning
20:53:20  <rubidium> and equally broken
20:53:23  <V453000> :D
20:53:23  <andythenorth> accepts: tea
20:53:44  <andythenorth> problem is
20:53:53  <andythenorth> Basic Temperate is already Brit
20:54:58  <rubidium> it doesn't have enough flooding to be Brittish... or are the floods now gone?
20:55:57  <andythenorth> hmm
20:56:03  <andythenorth> dunno :P
20:56:20  <frosch123> make a true brittish economy
20:56:27  <frosch123> deliver pirate ships to harbors
20:56:31  <frosch123> get gold in return
20:56:37  <frosch123> spanish gold even
20:56:46  <frosch123> or inka gold?
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20:57:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: what is “Nothing” in SV?
20:58:01  <andythenorth> also slaves
20:58:22  <andythenorth> the English big on slaving
20:58:57  <frosch123> it's not exactly "nothing"
20:59:05  <frosch123> it may even be the best price :p
20:59:19  <idl0r> great, works fine now
20:59:21  <idl0r> thanks guys
20:59:40  <frosch123> s/price/prize/
20:59:42  <Wolf01> 'night
20:59:45  <andythenorth> FIRS nightly is super broken :O
20:59:49  <andythenorth> let’s ignore that
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21:00:03  <idl0r> btw. can you recommend some "addons" to make openttd more "shiny/realistic"? :P
21:00:26  <idl0r> zbase looks pretty good but opengfx looks more "realistic" somehow
21:01:56  <andythenorth> wtf is wrong with FIRS?
21:02:04  <andythenorth> the 1.3.0 release is also broken
21:02:14  <andythenorth> industries are repeated
21:02:47  <andythenorth> solved
21:02:52  <andythenorth> naughty grf list
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21:22:05  <planetmaker> hi ho
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21:25:42  <frosch123> pff, german grammar is hard
21:26:30  <idl0r> :D
21:26:39  <frosch123> i tried writing down the third person personal pronouns for all cases and genders...
21:26:51  <frosch123> it took me ages to find those for neutrum
21:27:10  <frosch123> and i messed up genitive by writing the possesive pronouns instead of the personal ones
21:27:57  <frosch123> though i really wonder whether i have ever uses the neutrum genitiv personal pronom in my live...
21:29:18  <planetmaker> what do you try to achieve, frosch123 ?!
21:29:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: i just wondered whether i would be able to to write them down :p
21:30:34  <frosch123> and neutrum personal pronoms for genitive and dative feel really weird
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21:32:17  <planetmaker> <-- I'd say that, but probably somewhat wrong for neuter
21:33:36  <frosch123> yay, you did the same mistake as i did :)
21:33:38  * andythenorth plays a game
21:33:49  <planetmaker> so, what's right?
21:33:54  <andythenorth> can we finish cdist? I’m bored of transfers
21:34:10  <frosch123> sein/ihr/sein is possesive pronom, it should have been seiner/ihrer/seiner
21:34:18  <frosch123> and you misssed plural
21:34:28  <planetmaker> oh, plurals
21:34:32  <planetmaker> let me add them :)
21:35:49  <idl0r> wow, the difference..
21:35:53  <idl0r> pretty amazing
21:36:02  <planetmaker> though there's only one plural form really. Satisfied?
21:36:22  <planetmaker> what difference, idl0r ?
21:36:42  <idl0r> between the farm and the industry above it
21:36:50  <idl0r> so graphics
21:37:09  <idl0r> the industry is 32bpp
21:37:42  <planetmaker> that you mean. yes :)
21:37:57  <idl0r> i hope there's more coming like that
21:38:17  <planetmaker> the 32bpp industry is part of zBase base set
21:38:21  <planetmaker> the farm of FIRS NewGRF
21:38:34  <planetmaker> (though FIRS likely defined everything for the mine except graphics)
21:38:38  * andythenorth is an aging dinosaur
21:39:06  <andythenorth> these smoking ships look good
21:39:20  <rubidium> frosch123: just use Sie for everything
21:40:50  <idl0r> i always loved ttd but somehow (nowadays) i couldn't play the orig. ttd just because of the graphics :(
21:41:55  <idl0r> and i never found a decent replacement for (open)ttd
21:44:26  <andythenorth> I can only play it because of 8bpp :)
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21:51:28  <frosch123> night
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21:53:22  <idl0r> i'll head to bed as well. night and thanks again :)
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22:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <idl0r> wow, the difference.. <-- besides having more pixels, the mine is actually pretty dull, graphics-wise
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