Log for #openttd on 26th April 2014:
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01:09:48  <supermop> ok, before i post a new thread and look like an idiot
01:10:02  <supermop> here is yet another idea for daylength
01:10:34  <supermop> after all, days should just be arbitrary in ottd, it's the ticks that matter, right
01:14:28  <supermop> sooo why not have things that occur daily or monthly instead occur every 74 or 2220 ticks etc
01:14:42  <supermop> or any arbitrary amount of ticks
01:16:01  <supermop> so scaling number of tiicks per day has no effect on the real speed of those other events
01:16:54  <supermop> if user wants to change the frequency of those events they could possibly do so either by newgrf or game setting
01:19:47  <supermop> i envision this being implemented along side a 24 hr clock
01:40:17  <MagisterQuis> So, I'm setting up a dedicated server.  I can't work out how to get it to stop printing debug messages to the console.
01:40:35  <MagisterQuis> As cool as it is to know who queries me, I don't really care that much.
01:41:01  <MagisterQuis> Even with -d 0 or -d net=0, it still prints them.
01:43:56  <MagisterQuis> Is there any way to suppress the dbg: [net] [udp] queried from 
 messages without going into the console and manually changing the debug level?
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03:19:25  <supermop>
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04:17:14  <DanMacK> hey all
04:17:22  <DanMacK> @seen Pikka
04:17:23  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 22 hours, 49 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <Pikka> no, I'm just not in here
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05:48:17  <Rubidium> MagisterQuis: add the -d 0 after the -D
05:56:14  <LSky> morning
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06:22:11  <andythenorth> disabling 90’ turns is a BAD FEATURE
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06:52:51  <planetmaker> moin
06:53:31  <Zsub> moin
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06:57:18  <Eearslya> meow
07:04:07  <supermop> hi
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07:08:23  <Supercheese> Baaa
07:10:52  <Rubidium> supermop: the main problem with day length patches is that something isn't scaled right according to some user
07:11:03  <andythenorth> also there’s no need for them
07:11:08  <andythenorth> is a problem
07:11:18  <andythenorth> more code with no purpose, getting in the way, and having bugs
07:12:01  <Rubidium> e.g. if you make a day longer, then a month and year get longer too. As a result per tick you pay less interest, less infrastructure costs and less vehicle maintenance. Also vehicles depreciate slower, so all in all the game gets significantly easier
07:12:30  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I think the aim is to get the game into real time
07:12:34  <andythenorth> one month = one month
07:12:44  <andythenorth> so that a realistic model train can be built
07:13:04  <Rubidium> also... some people think that industries/towns produce too much in their current state, and so that the tick based industry and town "production" need to be changed to something day-ish (in that particular use case)
07:13:29  <supermop> Rubidium: my idea is to have costs happen per tick rather than per day
07:14:30  <supermop> so that if i pay x cost every 30 days now, i still pay x cost every 2220 ticks after changing the speed at which the calendar increments
07:15:05  <supermop> so that if i sit at my computer for 10 minutes, the same 'stuff' happens with or without daylength effects
07:15:52  <andythenorth> ho ho, is Marklin’s site ‘mobile optimised’?
07:15:53  <andythenorth> :P
07:15:55  <supermop> only difference is that if i want it to stay in the 1920's longer, those years are passing more slowly
07:16:10  <Rubidium> so a vehicle model length of 10 (original) years, now at 740 ticks per day is old after just 1 (new) year?
07:16:55  <supermop> i imagine things that change based on the calendar still would do so,
07:17:04  <andythenorth> I have tried to figure out a few times, why don’t we just lie about the date?
07:17:22  <supermop> andythenorth: thats basically what i am saying
07:18:15  <planetmaker> maybe one indeed could have vehicles get old after just 3 weeks. But introduce newer *types* of vehicles by the changed time flow. As the only concession.
07:18:31  <andythenorth> just display the date as ‘date * multiplier’
07:18:34  <andythenorth> problem solved
07:18:41  <andythenorth> everything else untouched
07:18:53  <planetmaker> And ask for insane amounts of interest, thus coupling that to ticks
07:18:55  <supermop> Rubidium: if a newgrf says this train is old after 10 years, lets say it takes 10 times as many ticks to get there
07:19:39  <planetmaker> supermop, but 'getting old' is part of difficulty. It costs money. Thus slower time makes it easier, if 'getting old' is delayed
07:19:39  <andythenorth> hmm
07:19:57  <andythenorth> this sounds hideous, let’s talk about breakfast instead
07:20:19  <andythenorth> a world of possibilities awaits, what should I eat?
07:20:40  <supermop> planetmaker: as stated in my post, it does not contribute enough to difficult as is
07:22:05  <supermop> i get the impression that people mostly want two things from daylength: their trains (particularly steam trains) to last longer in real time, and to have more time to build out networks before they end up in the 30th century
07:22:10  <Alberth> andy, the finest breakfeast you can create before the morning ends?
07:22:30  <Rubidium> a tompouce?
07:23:01  <supermop> i personally don't mind using 80's DMUs in the 2500s
07:23:03  <Alberth> supermop: make a nice newgrf for it. Problem solved
07:23:30  <Rubidium> mak
07:23:45  <andythenorth> I have eggs, bacon, tomatoes, oat cereal, mushrooms, salmon, salami, porridge, melon, milk, bananas
07:23:47  <Rubidium> a) don't mistype make, b) do it in the right window ;)
07:23:53  <andythenorth> Alberth: +1
07:24:04  <andythenorth> supermop: you just want vehicles available for longer?
07:24:13  <Alberth> Rb can make anything in any window :)
07:24:35  <supermop> i want to stop seeing ideas for daylength pop up that keep hitting the same roadblock
07:24:51  <supermop> i use never expire
07:25:00  * NGC3982 enjoys the public servers for the first time in five years.
07:25:01  <Alberth> supermop:  stop reading the suggestions forum :)
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07:25:26  <supermop> i do want some kind of 24hr time though as it makes it easier for me to timetable
07:25:34  <andythenorth> supermop: daylength is a fundamentally ‘not happening’ issue
07:25:39  <andythenorth> it shouldn’t even be attempted
07:25:51  <Alberth> supermop: never expire doesn't prevent new models from appearing "too fast"
07:26:10  <andythenorth> I have (in my deep past) made games with Flash
07:26:23  <andythenorth> in Flash the equivalent of ticks is framerate
07:26:38  <supermop> and if the problem has always been things get scaled wrong, why not just separate those things from the number that people want to scale
07:26:47  <andythenorth> because it’s insanely difficult
07:26:58  <andythenorth> literally I have tried this in *much* simpler games
07:27:10  <andythenorth> you cannot easily decouple the different factors
07:28:29  <andythenorth> you get a hideous intersection of issues like interaction, gameplay progression, animation, difficulty
07:29:02  <andythenorth> games are fundamentally time-based media, you can’t fuck around with the timings trivially
07:30:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26517 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2014-04-26 07:30:15 UTC)
07:30:23  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Windows 9x (or rather non-unicode) compile failures
07:32:03  <andythenorth> supermop: the basic goal I think you want could be met by lying about the date in the UI + newgrfs with scalable intro dates
07:32:18  <andythenorth> i.e. a parameter for time scale = 1x, 2x, 4x etc
07:32:40  <andythenorth> but no programmer is going to patch and commit that because it won’t seem like a ‘proper’ solution
07:33:17  <Rubidium> it will mess up George's industries for sure ;)
07:33:32  <supermop> is tht much different than having a set-able coefficient for changing number of ticks in a rendered date?
07:36:50  <andythenorth> Rubidium: grfs have to explicitly declare support for it - grv v9 or something
07:37:01  <LSky> distribution variety isnt related to industry placement, is it?
07:37:02  <andythenorth> and if not supported, grf is disabled, or setting is 1x
07:37:53  <planetmaker> LSky, in map generation? That's only about landscape form
07:38:56  <LSky> hi btw
07:38:59  <planetmaker> supermop, yes... maybe. The problem really is that there's many values which are used for both, per tick and real-life unit time.
07:39:20  <LSky> its a shame that the daylength thing isnt happening btw, its much more fun in my experience
07:39:39  <andythenorth> why?
07:39:41  <planetmaker> But, indeed, I do think if there can be a daylength thing it's in a sort similar to how you describe. Mostly de-coupling things. Keeping game-as-is and mostly display fixes to time
07:39:56  <LSky> for multiplayer, you get to play a map for longer
07:40:07  <planetmaker> how that?
07:40:08  <andythenorth> can’t you just play for longer?
07:40:14  <Alberth> LSky: 5000000 years not enough?
07:40:19  <LSky> people kinda stop bothering after 2020
07:40:29  <Alberth> ...
07:40:33  <planetmaker> there's virtually no end to a map other than "not playable anymore" and "everything connected and built-up"
07:40:50  <andythenorth> LSky: so if time is 2x slower, they’ll stop bothering 1970?
07:40:55  <planetmaker> LSky, incidentially that's usually the date where everything is connected in multiplayer
07:41:00  <LSky> from what ive seen, people enjoy the sweet spot 1940-2010 most
07:41:03  <planetmaker> if you start early enough and enough companies
07:41:49  <supermop> i care less about length of game, more i would like to be less reliant on days as they are now for my gameplay
07:41:51  <planetmaker> So what would happen, if you made a small add-on NewGRF which stretches the introduction dates of the vehicles of your favourite set from the 100-year range to 1000 year range?
07:41:59  <LSky> andy, youd think that, but every game regardless of when the game started, its about done when people played  a day or so in 2000+
07:42:47  <Alberth> LSky: why do people stop playing?   If you want a longer game play, that's what you're going to have to fix
07:43:05  <LSky> well im not saying its an issue as such
07:43:15  <LSky> i mean, its just a shame that it wont be officially supported
07:43:26  <LSky> were doing fine on our server, where games last about 6 real days
07:43:53  <LSky> and yeah, i suppose introduction dates of vehicles can be edited
07:44:03  <LSky> but thats going to be editing quite a few newgrfs if you wanna do it right
07:44:37  <LSky> the original reason for having this, for me, was so that when id play an mp game, my company wouldnt be gone/horribly outdated when id come back the next day
07:44:54  <Rubidium> vice versa too; if you change the length of a day, then NewGRFs need to be updated to properly account for the repurcussions of that
07:45:04  <LSky> yes
07:45:10  <LSky> but just basecosts solves most of that
07:45:41  <LSky> we've ran this server like this for 2 years now, never needed to edit newgrfs and its balanced well, imo
07:46:19  <LSky> i mean, all im saying is that its a shame that it wont be officially supported
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07:46:32  <supermop> also my opinion is sort of meaningless as a i rarely playthrough a game anymore
07:46:53  <LSky> well whats 'playing through' in OpenTTD?
07:46:55  <LSky> sandbox after all
07:47:30  <Rubidium> the main problem of OpenTTD why features can't be added easily is because of backward compatability, and having to figure out what to do with that
07:48:18  <LSky> i didnt really expect it to have been a feature any time soon, the daylength mods are kind of outdated as is
07:48:48  <LSky> took us a lot of effort to get any mod working with recent nightlies
07:48:48  <supermop> way i play now is: andy releases something new, so i get a nightly, download that set, plus updates of anything else i have downloaded, play a map between 64x128 and 256x512 for a few hours to see what neat things andy has made for me...
07:48:49  <Rubidium> were we to drop support for the current NewGRFs, base sets, AIs and game scripts, then we can simplify a huge amount of code a ditch loads of somewhat pointless settings
07:49:59  <LSky> well, if it cant work, it cant work, i have no issue with that
07:50:12  <LSky> its usually managable with mods
07:51:07  <andythenorth> Rubidium: we could do that

07:51:10  <andythenorth> version 2?
07:51:31  <supermop> then get bothered by some little issue, stop playing to brainstorm a newgrf, get put off by doing work on it, go do something else
07:52:30  <LSky> planetmaker, im looking at the 'apply for project' page btw, i have no idea what im supposed to be putting in the fields of tracker, status, priority, assignee, etc, etc
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08:02:38  <planetmaker> just leave it at defaults
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08:17:18  <supermop> ooops
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08:17:37  <supermop> accidentally started a wasteland game with a growth script running
08:17:49  <supermop> can i turn off a GS in a running game?
08:18:23  <LSky> which growth script
08:18:36  <supermop> andythenorth: HEQs crawlers look good in a post apocalyptic setting
08:18:40  <supermop> real growth
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08:25:56  <andythenorth> supermop: :)
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08:28:25  <Phreeze> no, it's me
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08:50:28  <andythenorth> anyway
08:50:39  <andythenorth> forbidding 90’ turns is a BAD FEATURE
08:52:40  <planetmaker> why is it BAD?
08:52:48  <andythenorth> what does it achieve?
08:52:53  <planetmaker> 90° turns must be forbidden by default :)
08:52:53  <andythenorth> other than breaking routing for ships?
08:53:00  <Phreeze> it's kind of...unrealistic
08:53:03  <andythenorth> I had it forbidden for years
08:53:03  <planetmaker> oh, for ships not. For trains
08:53:04  <__ln___> 90' is 1 degree and 30 minutes?
08:53:15  <Phreeze> when i was a kid and playing with trucks, even THEN i didnt do 90° turns
08:53:31  <andythenorth> I just re-enabled it for my 4 year old, and now I’m looking at it as ‘wtf’
08:53:37  <andythenorth> there’s nothing wrong with 90’ turns
08:53:48  <planetmaker> 90' indeed is 1° 30'
08:53:53  <Phreeze> for trains, it looks weiiiiiiird
08:54:10  <planetmaker> no way to show that slight angle change in OpenTTD :P
08:55:34  <andythenorth> it’s not an improvemtn on original TTD
08:55:38  <andythenorth> improvement *
08:55:46  <andythenorth> it’s just a thing to please the train nerds
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08:57:16  <Brumi> 4 year old playing openttd?
08:57:24  <Brumi> impressive :)
08:57:35  <andythenorth> he’s been playing for about 18 months
08:57:48  <Brumi> can he read?
08:57:48  <andythenorth> unaided for about last 9 months
08:57:53  <andythenorth> can’t read
08:58:00  <Brumi> wow
08:58:12  <andythenorth> he just builds train loops and sets them going
08:58:26  <planetmaker> :)
08:59:08  * peter1139 hands andythenorth a supply of °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° symbols.
08:59:17  <Brumi> I also couldn't build anything sensible when I first started playing
08:59:34  <peter1139> alt-gr+shift+0, simple.
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09:00:18  <andythenorth> peter1139: steve jobs didn’t approve of your funny symbol
09:00:23  <andythenorth> not on my keyboard
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09:00:30  <peter1139> Get a real computer.
09:00:37  <peter1139> Or just put a real OS on it.
09:01:20  <planetmaker> andythenorth, my mac has the ° in the usual place... left of 1 by means of shift.
09:02:09  <andythenorth> °°°°°°°°°°°
09:02:12  <andythenorth> blearch
09:02:18  <andythenorth> let’s make a farm
09:02:25  <andythenorth> ‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡
09:02:35  <andythenorth> keeps the cows in
09:03:30  <andythenorth> ≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠â‰
09:03:33  <andythenorth> keeps the sheep in
09:03:40  <andythenorth> sheep are not as strong as cows
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09:15:36  <andythenorth> where is V453000
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09:23:05  <planetmaker> there's some object set which has a few nice fences. DWE? VAST? Dunno, but likely one of those two
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09:33:57  <peter1139> Is there an option to stop towns building so many bridges?
09:36:42  <planetmaker> no
09:36:56  <planetmaker> except if you disable road building by towns altogether
09:37:14  <planetmaker> maybe a different road layout helps, but that's dubious
09:37:19  <planetmaker> depends on geography
09:39:01  <peter1139> Should be quite simple to check for nearby bridges, I think?
09:40:05  <peter1139> Take a point half-way along the bridge, then check perpendicular for a "few" tiles from there for other bridges.
09:40:51  <planetmaker> should not be more than two each way
09:40:58  <planetmaker> two tiles
09:41:09  <peter1139> 2? That wouldn't stop anything.
09:41:33  <peter1139> Well depending on the layout I suppose.
09:44:46  <peter1139> Hmm, ah, I'm thinking over water. Over track is not so ugly.
09:44:47  <andythenorth> I like these stupid bridges that are unmovable and block my ships, stations etc
09:48:59  <andythenorth> are rivers unmovable yet?
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09:50:00  <andythenorth> quak
09:50:03  <Alberth> moin
09:50:06  <peter1139> You can't move them.
09:50:18  <andythenorth> must be fixed then
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09:52:22  <frosch123> hola
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09:57:37  <fonsinchen> If you're bored, make a timetable for conditional orders and watch the weirdness.
09:57:57  <andythenorth> :o
09:58:05  <andythenorth> that sounds like mixing sodium and water
09:59:20  <andythenorth> why are conditional orders?
09:59:25  <fonsinchen> It's possible and it does something remotely logical. It's just very hard to understand what it does.
10:00:17  <andythenorth> do conditional orders have any purpose?
10:00:38  <fonsinchen> Oh, ask V453000, he'll give you myriads of examples
10:01:38  <andythenorth> oh if it’s V453000 we can ignore all the answers
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10:07:15  <Wolf01> hi hi
10:09:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I use cond. orders for low-capcity things where I can have one train serve e.g. two mines
10:09:25  <planetmaker> if load% > 90 also try to pickup stuff from 2nd mine or so
10:11:42  <andythenorth> hmm
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10:12:04  <andythenorth> doesn’t cdist make all that redundant?
10:12:14  <andythenorth> maybe not
10:13:20  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how do you get the < 90% load?
10:13:23  <andythenorth> timetable?
10:13:45  <planetmaker> andythenorth, don't use full load and just visit a low-throughput station
10:13:55  <planetmaker> where there waits less than the train can carry
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10:35:04  <MagisterQuis> Rubidium: Still prints a few debug messages, though debuglevel reports net=0.  Is there a way to compile it as default (without digging through the source) or a setting in the config file?
10:36:12  <Rubidium> some of the messages can't be easily disabled
10:38:20  <planetmaker> MagisterQuis, did you see that you failed to attach the fix-OpenBSD patch?
10:39:13  <MagisterQuis> planetmaker: I did.  I attached it.
10:39:20  <MagisterQuis> Like, commented and atteched.
10:39:22  <MagisterQuis> attached*
10:39:36  <MagisterQuis> <- and put this in there.
10:42:40  <Rubidium> though as far as I can see all stuff that's printed at debug level 0 is something odd happened
10:43:54  <fonsinchen> Either I'm too stupid to understand it or timetabling of conditional orders makes no sense whatsoever.
10:44:13  <MagisterQuis> Rubidium: Seems it prints some routine startup messages:
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10:52:27  <Rubidium> MagisterQuis: try
10:53:12  <MagisterQuis> Rubidium: Why are those messages debug messages (as opposed to, say, info)?
10:53:17  <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether the version should or should not be shown regardless of anything
10:54:38  <Rubidium> MagisterQuis: it's just the same; either you make a number of functions for "error", "warning", "info" and "debug"... or you just make one with different levels of importance
10:55:07  <MagisterQuis> Ah, that makes sense.
10:55:20  <Rubidium> only caveat is that some info is more important than some warnings, so you'd need to add levels to the four functions as well
10:55:27  <MagisterQuis> So, in OpenTTD, DEBUG() is a bit like syslog()?
10:55:35  <Rubidium> yup
10:55:43  <MagisterQuis> That makes sense.
10:56:00  <MagisterQuis> In that case, it'd make sense for those messages to be printed at level 0.
10:56:10  <MagisterQuis> The [dbg] tag threw me.
10:56:44  <MagisterQuis> Starting a server with no output would be odd.
10:57:16  <Rubidium> that's kinda why the dedicated server does -dnet=6 in -D
10:57:33  <MagisterQuis> Yeah, but then you get a message every time someone queries it.
10:58:32  <Rubidium> it's always been doing that; I was never bothered much by it
10:59:18  <MagisterQuis> I'll try net=1 and see how chatty it is.
10:59:30  <MagisterQuis> I haven't played in years :D
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10:59:47  <MagisterQuis> Last time I played much, I wrote a wrapper that allowed control via IRC.
10:59:55  <MagisterQuis> It was nearly unauthenticated :D
11:00:22  <planetmaker> the new kid in town for that is usage of the admin port :)
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11:00:47  <planetmaker> Usually I recommend using SOAP to control OpenTTD (and bridge it to IRC - it's a supybot plug-in)
11:00:58  <MagisterQuis> I saw that.  I decided not to poke at it unless I actually need it.
11:01:10  <MagisterQuis> Surprisingly, full-time employment kinda takes time away from messing with game servers.
11:01:42  <planetmaker> using soap made many things quite easy actually - I think
11:04:56  <MagisterQuis> Given that I'll have all of four users, I'm not hugely worried about it.
11:05:09  <MagisterQuis> Plus random people who wander in.
11:05:23  <MagisterQuis> But, with the number of servers online, even that's not going to be a large number.
11:06:32  <planetmaker> well. The amount of online players and available servers tends to be the same numbers. Approximately
11:07:23  <MagisterQuis> Lol.
11:07:27  <MagisterQuis> Everybody runs his own server?
11:07:50  <planetmaker> well. Not really. Most probably play single-player. Just check-out
11:08:04  <planetmaker> and count server-no and connected clients
11:08:15  <planetmaker> average is one. But it's unequally distributed
11:08:49  <MagisterQuis> Neat.
11:09:42  <planetmaker> I certainly didn't count in the last year, but I'll be surprised if it changed significantly
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11:13:39  <Rubidium> it's more like half a player/server
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11:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the peak time is probably more interesting than the average
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12:00:51  <NGC3982> Oh hai.
12:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "How do you explain to a foreigner that there are naked beaches and naked saunas, but in the pool belonging to a naked sauna you have to wear bathing clothes"
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12:05:28  <planetmaker> hehe
12:05:48  <planetmaker> try to explain the concept of 'FKK' in the first place. And how to know when / where / why :P
12:08:11  <andythenorth> hmm
12:08:15  <andythenorth> wasteland
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12:09:12  <planetmaker> it's an awesome idea, too :)
12:09:19  <planetmaker> and not badly made either
12:09:35  * andythenorth ponders
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12:25:35  <andythenorth> Road Hog alpha-1 now on banananananas
12:25:41  <andythenorth> 'needs' nightly ottd
12:51:06  <fjb> Moin.
12:52:01  <planetmaker> hi fjb
12:52:14  <fjb> Moin planetmaker
12:54:06  <fjb> planetmaker: FKK when and where? You will find out when the police arrests you or not.
12:59:21  <planetmaker> lol
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15:53:30  <LordAro> @seen Zuu
15:53:30  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 12 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Zuu> Hello ZirconiumX
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16:33:26  <George> Hi. Can running cost be negative?
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16:41:41  <DanMacK> Hey all
16:52:15  <Rubidium> George: I doubt it
16:52:42  <George> Would it be hard to provide such a feature?
16:55:10  <George> Electric locomotives with    Regenerative brakes (also going down hill) in fact generate energy, thus could be represented as negative running cost
16:55:36  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26518 trunk/src/genworld.cpp (2014-04-26 16:55:30 UTC)
16:55:37  <DorpsGek> -Change: make genworld messages on the dedicated server disable-able by using -dnet=0
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16:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably modelling a few steps too far there
16:56:02  <andythenorth> just lower the running costs generally?
16:56:12  <andythenorth> same net effect
16:56:26  <andythenorth> or zero them
16:56:32  <andythenorth> when coasting
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16:57:01  <andythenorth> the relevant cost is for a journey or round-trip,
16:57:08  <andythenorth> not for any given tick
16:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> every bit of energy you save during braking you already spend through accelerating, so just reduce the acceleration costs
16:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> as to the difficulty: it would be trivial to interpret the property/return value as signed
16:58:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't change specs like that, someone could be using that range already
16:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need an additional flag to switch the signedness
17:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and there it starts being a mess
17:00:40  * Rubidium wonders how much of the running costs are actually electricity
17:01:37  <Eddi|zuHause> how much of your car's running cost is fuel?
17:01:58  <Rubidium> I can't answer that question
17:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably significant, but if you include the driver time, it's not the majority
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17:03:45  <Rubidium> lets assume a TRAXX engine, apparantly 4 MW of power output on 1.5 kV: EUR 0.03 / kWh -> 1 hour full whack costs EUR 120. They need to pay at least EUR for the train path if it's only the loc, and using 100% of the engines power with only the loc for an hour seems improbable
17:04:24  <Rubidium> anyhow... top speed is 140 km/h, so lets assume it runs at top speed, that costs 140 EUR
17:04:32  <Rubidium> (all on Dutch railways)
17:05:20  <andythenorth> is that all?
17:05:25  <andythenorth> that’s ridiculously cheap
17:05:36  <fonsinchen> They have to pay the train driver also while the train is not going full power (or at least I hope so).
17:06:49  <Rubidium> maybe do it the other way around... lets assume regenerative breaking is 100% efficient is converting momentum into electricity
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17:07:24  <fonsinchen> But it's pretty surprising to do that math. I once calculated together with a friend that only the ICEs running in germany use the power output of 1 nuclear plant on average.
17:07:54  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can ignore accelerating/decelerating but you still have to overcome rolling friction and wind resistance for travelling
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17:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: but we closed 6 of those and it didn't even leave a dent in the statistics
17:10:29  <fonsinchen> Still, those trains are burning a sizable share of the total electricity produced in Germany. Apparently they didn't really optimize them for power consumption back then.
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17:13:26  <Phreeze> speaking of german trains, recently got a cool book for 10eur
17:13:44  <Phreeze> Deutsche Eisenbahnen, Bassermann Verlag
17:13:54  <Phreeze> got it on amazon
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17:17:33  <Rubidium> the loc is 80 000 kg, going 140 km/h (40 m/s): 18 kWh -> EUR 0.54. With 270 kN traction, the train should be able to stop in 12 seconds. It would need 550 meter to stop, so EUR 0.55. So a kamikaze break would still cost money.
17:18:16  <Rubidium> (under perfect conditions)
17:19:37  <fonsinchen> Did you just prove that a train is no perpetuum mobile?
17:21:01  <Phreeze> rubi, you know that the price for 1kw for heavy energy customers is ridiiiiiculously loooow
17:21:22  <Phreeze> like if you pay  10cents, they pay lessen than 1
17:22:50  <Rubidium> Phreeze: I'm using the prices that Prorail, the track owner here, puts in its document regarding running trains on their tracks
17:24:41  <Rubidium> I reckon some fraction of the price per kWh is for maintenance of the actual catenary
17:27:11  * Rubidium pays about EUR 0.06 per kWh for the electricity, then another EUR 0.15 in taxes and EUR 22.50 to get the electricit here, although I also get a EUR 385.5 refund on the "energy tax".
17:30:53  <Rubidium> which is nice, as last year I paid like EUR 475 for electricity and gas of which EUR 375 were costs for having a connection to the electricity/gas networks
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17:34:50  <frosch123> what triggers a refund on the tax?
17:35:28  <frosch123> here you would usually only get refunds for stuff you need for work
17:35:47  <Rubidium> the utilities company has to subtract it from the bill
17:38:11  <Rubidium> though it's more something that sometime they decided that the poluter has to pay, but the taxes (on average) were not allowed to rise. So they increased the tax per kWh and subtract "average usage * (new tax per kWh - old tax per kWh)" from the total
17:38:37  <frosch123> oh that kind of non-sense
17:42:37  <Rubidium> well, I'm kinda happy about it
17:43:48  <Rubidium> though those kind of constructs can be found everywhere in tax related stuff
17:44:24  <Rubidium> but lets not digress into that mess
17:45:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26519 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2014-04-26 17:45:12 UTC)
17:45:20  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21  <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
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19:25:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't understand a word of that...
19:31:41  <Supercheese> of which?
19:32:41  * andythenorth looks for a ‘win now’ button in ottd
19:33:32  <Supercheese> Ctrl+Alt+C
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19:35:51  <Rubidium> andythenorth: the red dot in the top left corner of the window?
19:38:49  <Supercheese> Top left?! Mac insanity
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19:45:27  <frosch123> Alt+0 in debug builds?
19:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i actually ever tried that
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20:09:34  <alluke> dat feel when torrent gets stuck
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20:34:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26520 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-04-26 20:34:22 UTC)
20:34:30  <DorpsGek> -Change: Reword some texts, mostly setting names.
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20:55:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26521 trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp (2014-04-26 20:55:08 UTC)
20:55:15  <DorpsGek> -Fix-ish: prevent from ever reading huge (or negative) amounts of data in strgen
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20:59:41  <fonsinchen> andythenorth: Feel like testing the better link capacity estimates for full load?
21:00:05  <andythenorth> trunk?
21:00:10  <fonsinchen> You can apply the waybill patch on top of that
21:01:21  <fonsinchen> Well, I've tested it myself a bit, but experience tells me that others find bugs where I don't find them.
21:01:58  <andythenorth> hmm
21:02:04  <andythenorth> is this a branch I can just switch to?
21:02:09  <fonsinchen> Yes
21:02:59  <fonsinchen> The ships/trains+waybill thing works pretty well with it. It just takes a fairly long time for the numbers to settle.
21:03:13  <andythenorth> :)
21:03:22  <andythenorth> I might not test tonight, need to sleep
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23:39:26  <Wolf01> 'night
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