Log for #openttd on 8th May 2014:
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02:06:29  <kiz> does anyone know why infrastructure maintenance is not on by default? Do the costs eventually get out of hand?
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05:56:19  <planetmaker> kiz, it's a relatively new feature and the backward compatible way is to leave it off
05:56:38  <planetmaker> Though that's not an argument really to switch it on by default and only off for existing saves
05:56:44  <planetmaker> It just needs one default value
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06:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you could easily default to "on" and switch it off in AfterLoadGame for old savegames
06:50:49  <Flygon> Dumb question time: What're the recommended ship sets? I'm using FISH and Sailing Ships
06:51:00  <Flygon> But unsure if those're the recommended choices nowadays
06:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> there are generally no "recommendations" for NewGRFs
06:52:12  <Flygon> I know
07:02:38  <Supercheese> I hear there's a fork of FISH in the offing
07:02:58  <Flygon> Yeah, there is
07:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there is also a never-officially-released update to newships
07:05:22  <planetmaker> the fork doesn't change much (so far), though
07:05:36  <Flygon> newships, that's the one that doesn't appear in the GRF crawler
07:05:57  <planetmaker> that's the one with guaranteed unavailability ;)
07:06:15  <Flygon> Yaaaay :P
07:06:23  <Flygon> Anyway
07:06:32  <Flygon> Time to try out a 1705 game for the hell of it
07:06:58  <Flygon> Shame there isn't a town speed slower than Slow but not None
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07:37:13  <supermop> if a newgrf, tram 0.1, defines one tram with one livery, and a new version, tram 0.2 defines exactly the same tram, but with an additional livery, can a game started with tram 0.1 use tram 0.2?
07:45:49  <supermop> or, if tram 0.1 defines three liveries that are all the same (green with yellow stripe lets say), and tram 0.2 defines the three liveries with the same names but different colors, would that work?
07:48:21  <planetmaker> probably depends a bit on how that is handled by the NewGRF. It can work
07:48:39  <planetmaker> yet, in all honesty, do not worry too much about backward compatibility
07:49:40  <planetmaker> the only place really, IMHO, where backward compatibility is slightly important is for the author him- or herself when testing the NewGRF
07:50:05  <planetmaker> as player you usually never should update your NewGRFs in your games anyway. And you can't without disabling several safety belts
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07:55:25  <supermop> ok
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07:56:52  <planetmaker> though generally, changing livery is not a game breaker, supermop. Worst which can happen - if it really only is livery - is that the vehicles in existing games look different
07:57:01  <planetmaker> if it changes stats along with livery, that's a different thing
08:00:29  <supermop> ok
08:01:35  <supermop> if i wanted to suggest an additional vehicle for ogfx+ trains, and drew a sprite for it, how likely would it be that it would be included by whoever maintains that set
08:01:54  <supermop> i don't recall if that is you planetmaker or someone else
08:04:53  <supermop> just a later diesel or so for temperate, maybe a MU for arctic...
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08:08:28  <planetmaker> I haven't done much with that trainset for ages tbh.
08:09:02  <planetmaker> I guess vehicles which would well complement the default vehicles, they could well be included
08:09:16  <planetmaker> They mostly should extend the time frame of the set, though
08:09:30  <planetmaker> as the default time is quite well covered
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10:17:56  <Samu> good day
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10:29:58  <Samu> music question: which of these formats would you be able to pack in openmsx if there was an alternative to MID? MP3, OGG, M4A, FLAC, APE, WMA
10:30:17  <Samu> question is related about licenses or cross-platform
10:33:21  <peter1139> MOD
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10:35:37  <Samu> i was trying to find a mid to mod converter
10:36:09  <Samu> not gonna be an easy converting task, it needs the mid soundfonts
10:37:28  <Samu> so none of those formats?
10:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't opus the new hype?
10:51:46  <Samu> what's that? never heard of that before
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10:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know much about it either, allegedly it's an improvement over vorbis
10:54:04  <Samu> i foudn it
10:54:04  <Samu>
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10:56:39  <Samu> BSD license
10:56:43  <Samu> is that good or bad?
10:58:59  <TinoDidriksen> BSD is one of the most permissive license.
11:00:53  <peter1139> OPUS is primarly designed as a real-time codec for streaming.
11:04:51  <Samu> some games have audio libraries installed on their directory, is opus something similar? you'd have full control of the audio coming out of the game?
11:13:34  <peter1139> No, it's 'just' a codec.
11:14:17  <peter1139> I don't ever see anything other than Midi being supported, anyway.
11:16:25  <Samu> mid needs to be better supported
11:17:00  <Samu> don't you agree? the volume slider for midi affects the audio volume too
11:19:40  <Samu> if the audio  was under control by the game instead, that wouldn't be an issue
11:20:39  <Samu> I was told audio playback is external to the game, not sure if it's related
11:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: depends on which driver is used. it's probably a wrong function being called/argument being passed
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11:26:46  <Samu> can you say, hey play this mid at this volume at the start of each mid?
11:26:51  <Samu> from openttd?
11:27:42  <Samu> instead of being able to change volume during mid playback, it would start playback with the altered volume
11:28:02  <Samu> shouldn't touch the sound effects volume that way, me thinks
11:30:52  <Samu> not sure why it's a driver issue
11:35:34  <Samu> just wondering: if openttd had an internal "audio mixer" and a way to convert mid to an audio stream that could be handled by that audio mixer, then it could manage to adjust volumes correctly, differentiating it from sound and music
11:36:09  <Samu> then the audio would go out to the driver as one stream
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11:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: "driver" is exactly the thing that says "play this at this volume". what else would it be?
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11:52:41  <peter1139> "a way to convert mid to an audio stream" ... feel free to come up with a lightweight good sounding MIDI synth.
11:53:56  <Samu> that's something I'm trying to find
11:54:12  <Flygon> Hint: It's not Roland
11:57:01  <Samu> damn midis... they're hard to work with
11:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: i think you have a totally wrong opinion on how this works at all
11:58:29  <Samu> yeah, I know, i'm not a programmer, but some one with ideas
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11:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> ideas are worthless if they don't fit the reality
11:59:56  <supermop> not many good TA22s to be had in victoria
12:00:21  <Samu> reality is, the driver sucks, from what I can gather
12:00:48  <peter1139> There's multiple drivers.
12:01:18  <Samu> midis also play different on different OS'es
12:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> music sheets also play different on different orchestras
12:03:06  <Eddi|zuHause> midis are exactly that, a music sheet. "play this note with this instrument". how the instrument actually sounds depends on who is playing the instrument
12:03:42  <Samu> my thinking logic was  mixing music with sound effect in OpenTTD as "only one stream before it's sent out to the OS/driver". This last part here is what I'm not sure about
12:04:03  <Samu> I don't know if that's what OpenTTD already do
12:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and your logic is ill-founded because there are no sounds for music in openttd at all
12:04:37  <Eddi|zuHause> or in any midi file, for that matter
12:04:49  <Samu> i know midis aren't sounds
12:04:57  <Samu> they have to be played
12:05:23  <peter1139> And OpenTTD passes that playing off to the OS.
12:05:47  <Samu> I see, that's where it loses control of the outcome
12:06:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it does not "lose control"
12:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it just might be misusing the control it has
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12:08:14  <peter1139> Certainly adjusting music volume doesn't affect sound volume for me.
12:08:42  <Samu> maybe it's a windows issue
12:08:43  <Samu> brb
12:09:51  <Samu> ok, max sound effects volume and max music volume. If I turn down sound effect volume, the music is still playing at the correct volume
12:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (why am i even saying anything)
12:10:10  <peter1139> Eddi|zuHause, bored? :D
12:10:19  <Samu> just checking
12:10:34  <Samu> it's the midi volume, it's acting as the global volume meter
12:12:18  <Samu> I'm sorry to ask, my last question I promise, does it also happen in other OS'es?
12:14:28  <peter1139> No idea, music volume is not implemented on Linux.
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12:29:35  <Samu>
12:31:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that has nothing to do with whatever...
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13:05:50  <Samu>
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13:12:07  <peter1139> Samu, then, find a soundfont that is reasonable quality, isn't massive, and has a GPL-compatible license.
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13:14:51  <Samu> they suggest two
13:16:36  <Samu>  SoundBlaster AWE 32 is where the Original TTD midis sounded best
13:17:12  <peter1139> Neither of those qualify as "not massive"
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13:30:55  <Flygon> Whelp
13:31:13  <Flygon> I should feel proud for hybridizing a bay and through platform two-track railway line in the width of 4 tiles
13:31:18  <Flygon> While having 6 platforms
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13:46:34  <Samu> the smallest I could find
13:47:06  <Samu> smallest soundfont - 3,95 MB (4.146.440 bytes)
13:47:12  <Samu> from synthfont itself
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13:54:52  <Samu> peter1139: it can be compressed to - 2,78 MB (2.917.288 bytes)
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14:18:43  <Xaroth|Work> @calc (10**14)/(1024**4)
14:18:43  <DorpsGek> Xaroth|Work: 90.9494701773
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14:44:21  <Samu> The windows own soundfont file is 3,28 MB (3.440.660 bytes), but in another format, in .DLS
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15:07:56  <Samu> I think i got what's needed. fluidsynth (1.1 MB) plus a soundfont (the one I found is 3.95 MB) This font is so far playing fine with the midis provided by openmsx
15:08:12  <Samu> 5 MB - is that small enough of a compromise?
15:08:58  <Xaroth|Work> for a single song?
15:09:40  <Samu> no, for the ability to have openttd to play midis independently of external libraries or soemthing like that
15:09:51  <Samu> it's for all midis
15:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that would still double the size of openttd
15:13:51  <Samu> the other option is to use the current OS's font, but that is pretty much how it is now
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15:15:10  <planetmaker> not sure... maybe sound fonts could something optional
15:18:30  <peter1139> Bah, I had to move up :(
15:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "public service mikado: who moves first, loses"?
15:23:16  <peter1139> So now I have an 8 between a 256 and a 1024...
15:23:19  <peter1139> Le sigh :p
15:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that's medium difficulty
15:31:48  <Samu> gotta be honest, they sound better with this font, and it doesnt' cut off the sound at the end of the songs like it currently does
15:31:57  <Samu> the midis
15:32:48  <Samu> the instruments are very much the same, very minor differences, at least to the one provided by windows
15:33:22  <Samu> but reverbs, echo and some other effects are much better
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15:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: then write a driver in src/music/
15:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: or load the sounfont into windows' midi emulator
15:51:11  <Samu> oh man I wish I could help more than this
16:03:07  <Samu>
16:05:42  <Samu> there is no way to change the synth on windows 7, or if it is possible, it's not going to be easy
16:07:11  <Samu> microsoft answer in a related question was to use a 3rd party synthesizer
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16:19:03  <peter1139> I'm glad you've spent the whole day mulling this over...
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16:20:33  <V453000> :)
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16:29:59  <planetmaker> nice. The Germany ministry for families and gender equality has been found guilty to violate gender equality regulations when it comes to hiring new employees :D
16:35:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the weirdest part of movements like this is the individual groups fighting each other because they're not fighting hard enough
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16:46:27  <Samu> are you guys serious about the midi issue or not? I'm listening to all midis to see if there's an issue with this font, so far everything's good
16:49:30  <peter1139> We seriously don't care.
16:50:21  <peter1139> It works as well as it needs to, there's no reason to expend time on it, seeing as most people's first action is to turn it all off anyway.
16:51:14  <planetmaker> might be a vicious circle, though :)
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17:04:24  <Samu> Finished listening, all openmsx midis play fine, minor differences here and there, but they're not distortions
17:04:36  <Samu> but ok, sorry
17:04:53  <Samu> got too much enthused into this
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17:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it's certainly not a bad thing to get enthusiastic over something, but as long as you don't get someone with programming knowledge equally enthusiastic, it's basically wasted energy
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17:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: i still think your volume issue is a matter of finding the right line to change
17:36:54  <peter1139> I think it's probably a Windows driver issue.
17:37:56  <peter1139> midiOutSetVolume((HMIDIOUT)_midi.devid, ...)
17:38:12  <peter1139> Pretty umabiguous that it's dealing with only a MIDI device there.
17:40:20  <peter1139> +m
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17:45:39  <Samu> is this of help?
17:46:04  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26571 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2014-05-08 17:45:52 UTC)
17:46:05  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:07  <DorpsGek> croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:07  <DorpsGek> finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:46:08  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 1 changes by Brumi
17:46:09  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:46:10  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
17:46:11  <DorpsGek> slovak - 2 changes by Milsa
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17:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1139: my uneducated guess is that it's muxed in the wrong place
17:49:12  <peter1139> It's mixed by the OS/drivers and we have no control over it.
17:49:18  <peter1139> If they get it wrong, that's not our fault.
17:49:37  <peter1139> I don't see many bug reports from everyone having this problem.
17:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the midi emulator is "implementing" volume change by passing it on to the next higher volume filter
17:51:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and at that point it's already muxed the audio streams
17:51:54  <peter1139> What does that have to do with us?
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17:54:45  <Wolf01> hi hi
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17:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you should know what the programs do that you're interfacing with :p
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17:58:31  <Alberth> hi hi
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18:01:17  <peter1139> And we should know how any particular combination of hardware, OS, and drivers behave oddly?
18:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:06:06  <peter1139> Cool
18:10:01  <Samu> most audio hardware out there is realtek nowadays
18:13:51  <Samu> if the problem is the driver, i can try emailing realtek, but i have no idea how to expose the problem to them
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18:18:58  <Alberth> hai
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18:20:52  <andythenorth> lo bob
18:23:01  <George> [22:00:51] Alberth has no thoughts [22:01:55] planetmaker had none so far either - and what to do? Who can make a decision?
18:26:51  <andythenorth> lskynl: so are you going to update the docs for Redfish? o_O
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18:38:41  <Samu> Give me a bit of guidance, how to approach realtek about the changing volume issue.
18:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: i doubt the issue is in their code
18:39:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it's more likely in windows' midi emulator
18:41:23  <Samu> i've been searching the microsoft forums, they removed the midi device selection from the sound control pannel, but it's still possible to change the device
18:41:35  <Samu> hacking into the registry
18:42:08  <Eddi|zuHause> what's that meant to solve?
18:42:46  <Samu> to see if there was a way to change volume for midi only, and not make it act like it's a global volume
18:43:41  <Samu> dont know the technical terms, I know there's commands you send to the device driver that will then carry on
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18:44:02  <Samu> the emulator should be the device
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18:45:58  <Samu> i also wonder if there's still a midi volume controler after all
18:50:10  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:59:16  <Samu> I give up
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19:29:46  <andythenorth> I had three stupid GS ideas.  I’ve forgotten them :(
19:32:22  <andythenorth> one was a variation on “Win Now” button
19:32:32  <andythenorth> I think I was going to make it random whether you won or lost :P
19:33:12  <andythenorth> also I thought of a way for towns to really screw with you, but don’t remember how :P
19:34:34  <Samu> "paint"-shop image:
19:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> next episode of "useless statistics that nobody ever asked for"?
19:36:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that might be a good GS actually
19:36:46  <andythenorth> ‘achieve arbitrary goals measured by pointless statistics'
19:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i thought "randomly change volume"
19:37:07  <andythenorth> also good
19:37:14  * andythenorth considers a new version of NoCarGoal
19:37:21  <andythenorth> but you don’t get told the target, you have to guess
19:37:44  <andythenorth> and the feedback is ‘cold, warm, warmer’ etc
19:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've played a card game called "shadow hunter" where you're good or evil, and you don't know which other person is on your side
19:39:32  <andythenorth> ha
19:40:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and to mix it up there are neutral people who only fight for themselves
19:42:36  * andythenorth considers Easter Egg GS
19:42:41  <andythenorth> you get told there are 10 eggs
19:42:49  <andythenorth> eggs are unlocked by connecting stuff
19:43:02  <andythenorth> probably by providing service to a town or industry
19:43:15  <andythenorth> Easter Egg Hunt *
19:43:31  <andythenorth> my kids are obsessed with easter egg hunts, hours of free entertainment
19:44:25  <pthagnar> Frimpthatton council announces a subsidy for mystery service from Undisclosed Location to Who Knows Where?
19:47:15  <planetmaker> sounds fun actually
19:47:23  <planetmaker> not hero quest. But transport quest
19:47:33  <planetmaker> treasure hunt à la OpenTTD :)
19:47:47  <planetmaker> find the secret subsidy and win a 100x bonus for 3 years on the route
19:52:03  <andythenorth> hmm
19:52:06  * andythenorth starts IE7
19:52:12  <andythenorth> let’s see how sad I’m going to be
19:53:11  <andythenorth> quite sad
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19:56:04  <planetmaker> why would you start that ancient one?
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20:01:38  <Alberth> to feel sad?
20:03:33  <andythenorth> because browser usage stats require me to support it :|
20:10:08  <andythenorth> 10% :|
20:10:58  <planetmaker> some fossils die hard. But worth to care so much?
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20:14:07  <andythenorth> no choice :P
20:14:11  <andythenorth> contractual
20:14:49  <planetmaker> bah, sucks
20:15:12  <Samu> what are you doing with IE7?
20:15:30  <andythenorth> mostly I am watching how broken things are
20:15:41  <planetmaker> so it's not payment but pain and suffering money
20:15:47  <andythenorth> then filing them under ‘level 2 support: don’t fix minor visual defects’
20:15:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes
20:15:59  <Samu> but why 7 if there's 11
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20:16:05  <andythenorth> because customers
20:16:26  <Samu> and what is it that youre doing, a homepage?
20:16:31  <andythenorth> not exactly
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20:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> "Band collects 20000 dollar from spotify for silent album 'sleepify'"
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20:57:27  <peter1139> Old
21:02:54  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:04:29  <planetmaker> good night
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21:46:30  <Samu> statistics!
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21:48:22  <Xaroth|Work> Samu: that's hardly representative.. as it's just that site's stats.
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21:49:01  <Xaroth|Work> now if that was google's stats, then it'd hold some ground, but w3schools...
21:50:06  <Samu> some other:
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21:53:37  <Samu>
21:55:50  <Samu> i dont think ie 7 is used all that much
21:57:22  <Xaroth|Work> Samu: I'm pretty sure most web developers agree that IE7 (and most of IE, for that matter) can die a slow, fiery death.. but if your contract tells you that it needs to support it, then support it you will
21:58:42  <Samu> when i had windows xp, and i had it for quite a long time
21:58:48  <Samu> the last supported IE browser is 8
21:59:21  <Xaroth|Work> You'd be amazed how many systems still run XP
21:59:40  <Samu> they should be using IE 8 at least
22:00:01  <Samu> microsoft forces that update
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22:00:28  <frosch123> nah, they are probably behind a firewall
22:00:36  <frosch123> and the admins block all dubious websites
22:00:58  <frosch123> including some of your own company
22:02:46  <frosch123> (like when subsidy complains to the ceo that they do not want to link to the website of another subsidy, because it is constantly infested with malware, and they do not want to send their customers there)
22:03:09  <Xaroth|Work> heh
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22:04:54  <frosch123> "if you return home from a business trip to that subsidy, and hand over your notebook immediately for cleaning, we will kill you - very slowly"
22:05:05  <frosch123> +do not
22:11:30  <Xaroth|Work> gheh
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22:22:38  <glx> most xp users were still on IE6 I think
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22:24:56  <glx> (and the black transparent background for png)
22:25:51  <frosch123> night
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22:41:08  <Samu> just throwing a random idea, have the full load indicator as a progress bar in the vehicle window title
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22:44:19  <Samu> let me paint-shop the idea to better describe what I mean
22:53:08  <Samu> here's how it looks like
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23:54:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: you'll find it way easier to implement "Loading (x%)" as the status line

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