Log for #openttd on 23rd May 2014:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:07:03  *** MJP [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:08:02  *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:a55c:cd30:ad92:69e0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:08:29  *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:27:40  *** Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
00:35:35  *** killertester [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:15:17  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
01:20:31  *** Guest11323 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:26:25  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
01:40:22  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
02:22:11  *** Pereba_ [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
02:23:14  *** fkinglag [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:26:59  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:27:02  *** Pereba_ is now known as Pereba
02:36:57  *** fkinglag [] has joined #openttd
02:47:31  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
03:32:25  *** Djohaal [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:51:11  *** LSky_net [] has joined #openttd
03:51:16  <LSky_net> morning
03:52:19  <LSky_net> I woke up to this, anyone have an idea what that relates to?
03:52:21  <LSky_net> Message: Assertion failed at line 127 of .../src/core/smallstack_type.hpp: PooledSmallStack::CanAllocateItem()
04:13:26  *** Flygon [] has joined #openttd
04:18:41  *** tycoondemon2 [] has joined #openttd
04:18:41  *** tycoondemon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:26:29  *** LSky_net [] has quit [Quit: irc2go]
04:42:54  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Quit: (._. ) ( ._.) ( '-') ('-' ) Are you using AdiIRC? []]
04:56:01  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@] has quit []
05:01:30  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
05:01:46  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:05:49  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
05:11:20  *** LSky` [] has joined #openttd
05:16:15  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:36:55  *** Hazzard [] has joined #openttd
05:43:45  *** Hazzard_ [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:51:04  *** tycoondemon [] has joined #openttd
05:54:04  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
05:54:07  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
05:57:24  *** pthagnar [] has joined #openttd
05:57:54  *** tycoondemon2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:00:20  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:03:01  *** Hazzard [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:11:01  <planetmaker> moin
06:16:53  <V453000> yetis go moo
06:16:55  <V453000> when they poo
06:17:39  <planetmaker> :P
06:23:57  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
06:24:04  <Flygon> But what do planets do?
06:24:10  <Flygon> What do THEY make?
06:25:12  <planetmaker> they make places Yeti like to poo on ;)
06:25:28  <planetmaker> while they moo, of course
06:27:05  *** Tanguy [~tanguy@2a01:e34:ee8f:150:82ee:73ff:fe43:b876] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:32:24  *** Tanguy [~tanguy@2a01:e34:ee8f:150:82ee:73ff:fe43:b876] has joined #openttd
06:38:25  *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:d2d:7c02:28c:210d] has joined #openttd
06:44:01  <V453000>
06:44:01  <V453000> serious yeti business
06:44:01  <V453000> and final details could be later :)
06:44:01  <V453000> some graphical bugs but that only takes re-rendering now :)
06:46:28  *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:d2d:7c02:28c:210d] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:49:37  *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:d2d:7c02:28c:210d] has joined #openttd
06:59:24  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
06:59:24  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:00:23  <kiz> those glasses :D
07:02:15  <V453000> nice, it is noticeable :D i wasnt sure
07:08:34  <Aristide> Hi ^^
07:09:52  <V453000> nohi
07:10:20  <Aristide> :)
07:10:44  <Aristide> TCL install many Parkings xD
07:12:55  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
07:18:45  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
07:29:27  *** chrswk [~chrswk@] has joined #openttd
07:30:23  <LSky`> nice stuff V453000
07:33:06  <LSky`> im guesing thats the vehicle factory?
07:33:26  <Xaroth|Work> I sure hope it's not the food processing plant
07:33:32  <LSky`> i dont know man
07:33:37  <LSky`> it looked pretty yummy
07:53:49  <V453000> it is the machinery factory yes :)
07:54:09  <V453000> machinery increases effectiveness of workers for primary industries, something like supplies
07:59:32  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
07:59:54  <Aristide> <3
08:15:12  *** MJP [] has joined #openttd
08:18:34  *** killertester [] has joined #openttd
08:28:12  <V453000> the fuck is that
08:29:15  <Aristide> V453000: I like Hybrid bus :D
08:29:20  <Aristide> But cost 380 000 Euros :x
08:36:04  <peter1139> What a horrible noise.
08:38:59  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
08:40:54  <V453000> yeti busses aint making no noise (:
08:41:39  <peter1139> Road vehicle running sounds!
08:42:15  <V453000> nÖ
08:47:04  *** montalvo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:51:52  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
08:55:23  <Aristide> x)
08:56:09  <Aristide> Hehe a trolleybus (Cristalis ETB12)
09:38:19  *** jjavaholic [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:42:20  *** Brumi [] has joined #openttd
09:53:02  *** jjavaholic [] has joined #openttd
09:53:12  <V453000> you are seriously ill
09:53:16  <V453000> there isnt even anything to be seen
09:53:18  <V453000> just seats
10:26:24  *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:d2d:7c02:28c:210d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:30:31  *** LSky [] has joined #openttd
10:35:31  *** tycoondemon [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:35:45  *** tycoondemon [] has joined #openttd
10:36:30  *** LSky` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:32:06  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:32:36  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has joined #openttd
11:39:12  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
11:41:03  <Rubidium> LSky: I hope you're using a patched version that throws that assertion. It means that something tries to allocate a pool item without checking whether there is space for a new pool item
11:42:05  <V453000> you cant build swimming pools in openttd.
11:43:44  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
11:50:11  <planetmaker> so not true, V453000 !
11:51:05  <planetmaker> heck, even the default 'houses' have a fountain in which you surely can swim :)
11:53:10  *** tycoondemon [] has quit []
11:59:04  <V453000> I stand corrected
12:01:27  <planetmaker> pew. Lucky me that you agree so easily. Or I would have had to make a swimming pool object newgrf ;)
12:03:22  <planetmaker> but would be a nice easter-egg thing for one or another grf :)
12:11:06  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has joined #openttd
12:21:45  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@] has joined #openttd
12:28:03  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
12:32:23  *** Pulec [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:34:33  *** Klanticus_ [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
12:38:05  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:38:26  <Flygon> What we really need
12:38:32  <Flygon> Is a method of having day and night
12:38:36  <Flygon> And a GRF that like
12:38:45  <Flygon> Shows couples swimming in the pool at night
12:38:46  <Flygon> B3
12:40:00  *** kais58__ [] has joined #openttd
12:41:45  *** kais58_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:48:12  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
12:48:58  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:50:39  *** kais58__ is now known as kais58|AFK
12:53:46  *** Aristide [] has joined #openttd
12:54:39  <Aristide> V453000: I like inside of trolleybus :x
12:56:54  <V453000> sounds wrong
12:57:11  <V453000> Flygon: just make a newgrf which changes everything and all sprites turn to dark every odd year
12:57:12  <V453000> eazy
12:57:37  <V453000> idk if possible for landscape
12:58:08  <Flygon> V453000: Don't worry, I wasn't completely seriou
12:58:09  <Flygon> s
12:58:47  <Flygon> I do think a day-night system with those day patches that actually give a 24 hour clock into the game would be awesometastic though
12:59:52  <V453000> no need to interconnect that
13:00:02  <V453000> having day for 1 year and night for another year would be nice enough
13:00:13  <Flygon> I know
13:00:16  <Flygon> But, eh
13:00:19  <Flygon> I'm a romantic
13:00:43  <Flygon> I envisage, someday
13:01:10  <Flygon> A standard gauge HST line from Melbourne to Broken Hill, assuming HST = 250km/h max
13:01:18  <Flygon> Via Bendigo and Swan Hill
13:01:22  <Flygon> Others would call me mad
13:01:25  <planetmaker> V453000, that actually is not entirely possible. You cannot change infrastructure and landscape sprites. They don't have the required facilities to check for time
13:01:30  <Flygon> I call it a method of printing money in OpenTTD
13:01:47  <V453000> that is what I was saying pm :) "idk if possible for landscape"
13:01:57  <planetmaker> sorry, slow reading :P
13:02:02  <V453000> but having those things able to check for that would be nice too
13:02:08  <V453000> especially for e.g. randomizing landscape
13:02:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which is a problem since TTRS switched road sets... why has that not been adressed yet?
13:02:32  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it has. There's a fix for that in the openttd repository
13:02:38  <planetmaker> for desyncing multiplayer by that means ;)
13:03:07  <planetmaker> but the fix is differently... disabling the time dependence for MP entirely :P
13:03:59  <planetmaker> V453000, yes, it would. I totally agree. Such feature has nasty thorns, though
13:04:14  <V453000> right
13:04:18  <planetmaker>  Especially thorns from the cpu usage twitch ;)
13:04:25  <V453000> aha
13:04:26  <V453000> azz
13:05:26  <planetmaker> but then... nearly every feature takes cpu :)
13:06:27  <V453000> remove all features
13:06:38  <planetmaker> indeed. solves many problems :P
13:06:59  <planetmaker> your sprites can have any colour you like. Provided it's black :P
13:07:48  <V453000> =D
13:07:53  <V453000> perfect
13:08:27  <planetmaker> also they can choose that any time at at any frequency you like ;)
13:10:22  *** bdavenport [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
13:19:25  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
13:36:01  *** Pulec [] has joined #openttd
13:39:38  *** killertester [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:01:49  *** guru3 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:17:28  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
14:24:13  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
14:28:25  *** Klanticus_ [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:36:17  *** tycoondemon [] has joined #openttd
15:04:39  *** Hazzard [~Hazzard@] has joined #openttd
15:22:47  *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
15:22:50  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
15:26:05  *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58__
15:30:35  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:34:34  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
15:42:25  *** Aristide [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:50:46  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
15:57:36  *** Phreeze [] has joined #openttd
16:00:10  <Phreeze>
16:00:20  <Phreeze> just noticed that theres a ottd or ttd screenshot :)
16:00:29  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:00:37  <Phreeze> ah ottd ;)
16:27:00  *** LSky [] has quit []
16:36:08  *** Brumi [] has quit []
16:54:00  *** fkinglag [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:56:32  *** chrswk [~chrswk@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:59:37  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
16:59:40  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
17:06:40  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
17:07:40  *** fkinglag [] has joined #openttd
17:17:02  <Rubidium> planetmaker: transparent is a more useful color for speeding up drawing ;)
17:19:36  *** DabuYu [DabuYu@] has quit []
17:21:24  *** Klanticus_ [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
17:25:35  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:29:34  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
17:29:41  <andythenorth> o/
17:30:11  <Alberth> hi hi
17:46:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26607 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2014-05-23 17:45:58 UTC)
17:46:11  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:12  <DorpsGek> catalan - 25 changes by juanjo
17:46:13  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 3 changes by xiangyigao
17:46:14  <DorpsGek> croatian - 17 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:15  <DorpsGek> czech - 7 changes by Eskymak
17:46:16  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 7 changes by Stabilitronas
17:46:17  <DorpsGek> russian - 8 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:46:20  <andythenorth> where is cat?
17:46:38  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
17:46:58  <andythenorth> here is frog
17:47:01  <andythenorth> frog is not cat
17:47:03  <andythenorth> nor bird
17:52:51  <Supercheese> @seen cat
17:52:51  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: I have not seen cat.
17:52:58  <Supercheese> Here has never been cat
17:55:41  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
17:58:43  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:02:26  <frosch123> no, but i believe we have a cow
18:04:05  <andythenorth> moof
18:05:11  <frosch123> <- though it claims there is some ambiguouty about moo
18:06:59  <Alberth> V is clearly the expert :)
18:08:03  <frosch123> <- maybe V is uncertain about his animalish orientation
18:08:43  <planetmaker> nah, I'd not claim that. He just took foreign language courses
18:10:29  <andythenorth> are we making anything?
18:10:57  * Alberth just made a new patch
18:11:06  * planetmaker works on building nml-py3.
18:11:18  <Alberth> and /me is wondering about making some tea
18:11:23  <planetmaker> oh, good idea
18:11:54  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
18:12:00  <Alberth> meow
18:12:14  <andythenorth> coffee?
18:12:16  * andythenorth wonders
18:12:20  <andythenorth> maybe I’ll play the game
18:12:25  <Wolf01> woff
18:12:37  <andythenorth> or maybe I’ll fix the UI elements that are failing colour contrast
18:12:39  <andythenorth> work
18:12:54  <Alberth> #paint it black
18:14:38  <Wolf01> paint it like one of your french girls
18:15:28  <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: for unix or win?
18:17:32  <planetmaker> Xaroth, unix was done weeks ago
18:17:50  <Xaroth|Work> then what's wrong with win?
18:17:54  <planetmaker> and actually I 'just' need to get it done for the right wine version as we have on the server
18:18:04  <planetmaker> Xaroth, cx_freeze working under wine...
18:18:21  <planetmaker> and configuring the CF to like that
18:19:02  <Xaroth|Work> why cx_freeze? does it require some strange lib?
18:19:40  <planetmaker> if you give me another means to create a simple-to-use exe file for windows users... feel free
18:19:58  <Alberth> for some reason, MS doesn't install a useful program like Python on their machine :(
18:20:09  <planetmaker> yeah. Nor provides a package manager to do so
18:20:10  <Xaroth|Work> hrnf, if they have python3 installed, iirc, you don't -have- to make it an exe
18:20:34  <planetmaker> Xaroth, then not. But then it still requires setting up all paths etc. pp
18:20:41  <Alberth> Xaroth|Work: obviously, most don't have that :)
18:20:53  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:20:58  <planetmaker> I can meanwhile also provide an installer which works with a py3 install. But as alberth says.
18:21:18  <planetmaker> And those require possibly installers tailored for the specific python version. So many more packages which need building
18:21:30  <Xaroth|Work> ah, lame
18:21:53  <planetmaker> yeah. The world is lame in some parts
18:22:25  <Xaroth|Work> yeh, I'm used to being able to tell people to install libraries mine needs :P
18:23:23  *** Hazzard [~Hazzard@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:25:43  * Alberth is pretty sure, my Linux DVD has what Xaroth|Work needs :p
18:26:46  *** tycoondemon [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:27:01  *** tycoondemon [] has joined #openttd
18:31:16  <V453000> andythenorth: (:
18:31:57  <V453000> doing something (:
18:34:35  <andythenorth> people are going to love these
18:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> 2010-12-21 01:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and a black cow says "yo man, moo man!" <-- how did that ever come out of my brain?
18:35:31  <V453000> people =! important
18:35:37  <V453000> != (:
18:38:43  <Alberth> this will be the first newgrf I want to play at 4x zoom :)
18:40:03  <V453000> :)
18:51:35  * andythenorth does work
18:51:51  *** guru3 [] has joined #openttd
19:15:29  <V453000> so how do I code an industry newgrf? :D
19:16:05  <andythenorth> you get planetmaker to do it
19:16:12  <andythenorth> or Alberth
19:17:07  <V453000> that sounds ... reasonable but hm :)
19:17:30  <V453000> I am not very sure they want to do the minionizing :P
19:18:05  <Alberth>
19:18:59  <andythenorth> V453000: do you want to do anything clever / fancy?
19:19:15  * Alberth considers moving pictures fance
19:19:20  <Alberth> *fancy
19:20:07  <V453000> primaries have base production based on game date (is possible?), primaries do not produce anything without workers, delivered workers increase production, delivered machinery increases effectiveness of workers
19:21:14  <V453000> is that a reasonable mechanism?
19:21:19  <andythenorth> try it and see
19:21:26  <andythenorth> you’ll probably want templating
19:21:28  <planetmaker> yeah, try and see
19:21:32  <V453000> Alberth: thanks, that looks helpful
19:21:41  <V453000> I meant reasonably possible to code
19:21:45  <V453000> not game-wise
19:21:51  <planetmaker> possible, sure
19:21:52  <andythenorth> yes it’s reasonable, but not short
19:22:11  <andythenorth> you could look at FIRS, to see what not to do :)
19:22:18  <andythenorth> FIRS has a lot of history
19:22:27  <V453000> dont think I can wrap my head around FIRS code
19:22:34  <Alberth> nml needs a macro expander :)
19:22:46  <V453000> templating sounds good since I want to make all industries work super similarly, at the same time I think I would kill more time than save
19:23:17  <Alberth> V453000: that code is probably as basic as it gets
19:23:20  <andythenorth> Alberth: yexo was mostly -1 to that I think
19:23:28  <V453000> right
19:23:37  <Alberth> andythenorth: why?
19:23:40  <peter1139> hello
19:23:52  <planetmaker> Alberth, "re-inventing the wheel"
19:23:53  <Alberth> o/
19:23:59  <planetmaker> but not sure I agree
19:24:22  <Alberth> yeah, making people install cpp is friendlier :)
19:24:37  <andythenorth> also ‘nml has other more important features to add'
19:25:05  <Alberth> I agree, if only I could understand it all :)
19:26:12  <Alberth> for me, it would be better to start from scratch, but that would take a few years probably
19:27:21  <andythenorth> hello peter1139
19:27:52  <andythenorth> Alberth: start nml from scratch?
19:27:58  <andythenorth> :o
19:28:34  <Alberth> do you know a better way to understand nfo & nml?
19:31:04  *** bdavenport [] has joined #openttd
19:38:12  <andythenorth> no
19:43:37  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
19:45:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: reimplement it in C++ while you're at it :)
19:46:08  *** Klanticus_ [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:51:03  <Alberth> actually, I had plans of making a linkable newgrf format :)
19:51:10  <LordAro> Alberth: also, you're busy doing more important (tm) things ;)
19:51:25  *** Speedy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:51:35  <Alberth> yeah, as usual :(
19:53:48  *** talebowl [] has joined #openttd
20:06:01  <andythenorth> linkable newgrf format \o/ :)
20:06:47  <andythenorth> I wondered if a pure python format could be managed :P
20:07:00  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has left #openttd []
20:07:02  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has joined #openttd
20:07:25  <andythenorth> just define classes for all entities
20:07:45  <andythenorth> then write out nfo or newgrf format directly
20:08:32  <andythenorth> probably not general-purpose enough :P
20:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> # Und Gott sprach zu der Menge:
20:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> # IHR SEID SO LEISE
20:09:05  <Alberth> sounds like a bit too general purpose to me :)
20:09:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth, linkable does not necessarily mean to define everything as classes or so
20:09:27  <planetmaker> just that you can define and build each vehicle / industry / ... separately and link it later
20:09:50  <Alberth>   <-- this linking
20:10:21  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:11:35  <andythenorth> I know :)
20:12:50  <andythenorth> Alberth: you’d change the newgrf format, or the meta language, or both?
20:13:29  <Alberth> neither
20:13:47  <Alberth> you get an intermediate format just above newgrf
20:14:46  <Alberth> although if you use a textual format, you'll probably end up with something nfo-ish
20:16:09  <andythenorth> would this be transparent to current nml authors?
20:16:15  <andythenorth> or would it require a change in authoring?
20:16:30  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
20:17:23  <planetmaker> ideally it should be.
20:18:18  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
20:19:44  <andythenorth> what (how?) analysis would be done to identify what needs re-compiled and linked?
20:19:53  <Alberth> you should be able to do partial compilation
20:20:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth, *that*, I guess, is the interesting question
20:20:54  <Alberth> that's what make has been doing for a long time (not sure if it still does that), but currently it's useless
20:21:13  <Alberth> and linking, you need to link everything, don't you?
20:22:24  <Alberth> ie you can run a compile for just one industry
20:22:33  <Alberth> (theoretically at least)
20:23:05  <Alberth> do that for every industry, and then link all pieces into firs.grf
20:23:11  <planetmaker> I wonder how to deal with the ID issue, though. Whether to replace them on the run. Or whether to keep two 'pools', a global and local ones
20:23:34  <Alberth> set during linking, i think
20:23:34  <andythenorth> global and local scopes :P
20:23:41  <andythenorth> make the author do it right
20:24:20  <planetmaker> set during linking means we need to run at least an ID replacement in the object code
20:24:46  <Alberth> you need to do that anyway, to connect stuff together
20:25:00  <Alberth> also you need to write out the result, so you need to load all data
20:25:58  <andythenorth> hmm
20:27:33  <andythenorth> don’t we need to then inspect all IDs?
20:28:00  <andythenorth> or does using pools prevent colissions?
20:28:04  <LordAro> clearly you should be writing nnml
20:28:12  <planetmaker> andythenorth, not necessarily. if the objectfile specifies the localIDs just and indicates those which are global and need remain unmodified
20:28:14  <LordAro> new newgrf meta language
20:29:02  <Alberth> I am not convinced you have any global IDs
20:29:22  <andythenorth> chameleon forces local for IDs (var names).  Global IDs have to be explicitly defined, and are disliked
20:29:24  <Alberth> just claim you need one, and the linker will give you one
20:29:26  <andythenorth> like many other languages
20:30:23  <Alberth> note in my book, an ID is just a name, rather than a number
20:30:42  <andythenorth> can’t we do something brutal, like just force declaration of all global IDs at top of file?
20:30:47  <andythenorth> ugly but works
20:30:50  <andythenorth> ugly is bad :
20:30:51  <andythenorth> :P
20:31:00  <planetmaker> Alberth, I'm conviced you have global IDs
20:31:11  <planetmaker> e.g. the grf parameters, they are necessarily global IDs
20:31:19  <andythenorth>
20:31:32  <Alberth> planetmaker: why?
20:31:45  <planetmaker> newgrf parameters? We cannot do without them, can't we?
20:31:54  <Alberth> sure we cannot
20:32:00  <planetmaker> how would we treat parameters which set vehicle costs?
20:32:22  <Alberth> name it "vehicle_cost_parameter_setting"
20:32:39  *** Phreeze [] has quit []
20:32:50  <Alberth> the action 14 declares it as provider, and some other code declares it as needing it
20:33:05  <Alberth> does it matter what number it actually has?
20:33:22  <planetmaker> not. As long as it's the same in every linked module
20:33:51  <Alberth> the linker ensures that everybody using that name will get the assigned number
20:34:17  <Alberth> and even after the last use, it may be re-used for other purposes
20:34:36  <Alberth> the linker can figure out what the last user is, I think
20:35:07  <Alberth> ie the intermediate format uses symbolic numbers, rather than real ones
20:38:06  <andythenorth> unrelated, but I wondered about teaching nmlc to compile from multiple fles (from a manifest)
20:38:43  <andythenorth> seems like a simple thing that would help some authors split up their code better
20:44:49  <Alberth> hmm, that would be before the scanner, it's quite feasible, actually
20:45:34  <andythenorth> I would have thought so
20:45:44  <andythenorth> I have python code in my compiles for it
20:45:47  <andythenorth> pretty trivial
20:46:25  <Alberth> it needs some error reporting fixing perhaps
20:47:01  <Alberth> and Python doesn't exactly like long string manipulations
20:48:02  <andythenorth> can’t we just append to an object for readlines in files or something?
20:48:08  <andythenorth> that may make no sense
20:48:50  * andythenorth plays actual ottd
20:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ... but... cpp already handles connecting files and error reporting locations...
20:50:17  <Alberth> it doesn't read lines, unless you modify the scanner
20:51:03  <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc even has code for understanding cpp error location output
20:51:17  <Alberth> yep, /me added that
20:51:25  <andythenorth> teach authors cpp?
20:51:36  <Alberth> otherwise people get hopelessly lost with an error
20:51:42  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it also resolves the "included from ..." part
20:51:45  <andythenorth> everyone has to install gcc?
20:52:04  <planetmaker> doing without cpp would not be a bad idea
20:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: everyone has to install make?
20:52:48  <andythenorth> I dunno
20:52:50  <andythenorth> do they? :)
20:52:51  * Alberth doesn't understand the need for make, except as an easy way to bundle scripts in one file
20:52:59  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but do you want to reimplement _every_ feature of cpp? if you don't, people who use those features will just stick with cpp anyway
20:53:16  <andythenorth> I only use make because of devzone
20:53:20  <Rubidium> maybe a stupid idea... but doesn't NML need PLY? What about /usr/share/pyshared/ply/ ?
20:53:23  <Alberth> which every feature?
20:53:23  <andythenorth> and making tar
20:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you mean like nmlc just runs cpp internally?
20:54:18  <andythenorth> and because “ain’t broke, don’t fix"
20:54:18  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no. But which of those features are actually used?
20:54:19  <Alberth> Rubidium: I looked at that, but iirc there was something not useful about it
20:54:29  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: exactly ;)
20:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i certainly use some pretty crazy features
20:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: just take the VEH_ID macro(s)
20:55:29  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no-one will stop you doing that. And it won't become impossible
20:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no sane person would invent that :p
20:56:16  <planetmaker> but the average user might already profit much when a few basic cpp capabilities become possible
20:56:29  <planetmaker> like include or some simple macros
20:56:39  <frosch123> night
20:56:43  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
20:56:44  <Alberth> in particular multi-line macros
20:57:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "but who needs THAT??"
20:57:36  <planetmaker> :P
20:57:54  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the argument that everything needs to be mimiced is not one which cuts
20:58:16  <planetmaker> Nor what is needed. But providing more options for basic use helps to push the border to where more
20:58:24  <planetmaker> sophisticated parsers are needed further
20:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: possibly, but wherever you make the cut, you will get complaints
20:58:48  <planetmaker> of course. But that's no difference to now
20:58:59  <planetmaker> and like always, every journey starts with a first step
20:59:13  <planetmaker> going like "you need everything" is not useful for that
21:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there is also the other direction: things that are done with cpp are often not the optimal solution, there may be better solutions (like avoiding double include and stuff)
21:00:37  <planetmaker> and if we always add the most-needed thing, we'll get there^
21:00:40  <andythenorth> is anything done with cpp an _optimal_ solution? o_O
21:00:43  * andythenorth is trolling
21:00:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth, that's indeed a valid question. Possibly #include is. Not sure about the rest
21:01:02  <planetmaker> maybe #define
21:01:14  <andythenorth> constant substitution is fricking awesome
21:01:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends on your metric
21:01:32  <andythenorth> we got a long way in the first cpp FIRS with constant substitution
21:01:59  * andythenorth wonders about python built-in $ templating
21:02:15  <talebowl> I'm assuming that in general, if something isn't covered in the coding guidelines, it shouldn't be used, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask anyway: (a) should/can the member initializer list be used; -- (b) should/can uniform initializer syntax be used?
21:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need constant substitution if the compiler has proper constant folding
21:02:50  <Eddi|zuHause> optimizing out "parameters" if they never change
21:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> as such, i think "#define" is one of the least optimal solutions (the quick-and-dirty kind)
21:05:49  *** tycoondemon [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:06:04  *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@] has joined #openttd
21:06:31  <andythenorth> in what perspective?
21:06:35  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but it helps for the legibility of code, if you can like #define some_stuff = var1 - var2 + 2 * var3 * param0
21:06:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have a view, but why least optimal?
21:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but then you differentiate between the value of the term or the textual representation of the term. those are very different things
21:11:14  * andythenorth -> sliip
21:11:18  <andythenorth> urgh can’t type
21:11:19  <andythenorth> bed
21:11:24  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
21:12:08  *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
21:16:11  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Quit: AdiIRC: Nothing compares to it!  []]
21:37:56  *** tyteen4a03 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:45:17  *** montalvo_ [] has joined #openttd
21:46:23  *** montalvo_ [] has quit []
21:46:33  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
21:47:44  *** montalvo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:02:01  *** talebowl [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
22:02:39  *** Chrill [] has joined #openttd
22:07:34  *** Chrill [] has quit []
22:18:50  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:18:55  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:30:41  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
23:11:46  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:29:28  *** Pereba_ [] has joined #openttd
23:30:57  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
23:33:48  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:33:51  *** Pereba_ is now known as Pereba
23:54:30  *** Pereba [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:56:16  *** fkinglag [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk