Log for #openttd on 24th June 2014:
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00:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so you guys shoot rockets into children's bedrooms now?
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00:38:08  <V453000> very nice summary Eddi
01:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> also a nice quote i could have used was "there is probably a world market for 6 computers" (said by the founder of IBM)
01:09:49  <V453000> :)
01:10:02  <V453000> gnight
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07:10:54  <planetmaker> moin
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07:11:35  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, seems you're right. "We" now shoot missles into children's bedrooms.
07:11:47  <planetmaker> *missiles
07:14:31  <Supercheese> O_o
07:18:29  <planetmaker> for those who can read German
07:19:33  <planetmaker> in short: a rocket of the local experimental space rocket club went terribly wrong and impacted into a house
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07:20:14  <planetmaker> no-one was injured, though
07:23:12  <V453000> I dont think that is  the correct way to create planets pm
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07:24:17  <planetmaker> debatable
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07:25:37  <V453000> k :S
07:25:39  <V453000> :D
07:27:11  <Supercheese> What has (rocket) science done?
07:34:41  <V453000> all of science is probably guilty anyway
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07:52:35  <planetmaker>
07:55:56  <Supercheese> Valete, amici
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07:56:03  <planetmaker> valete
07:56:52  <V453000> anus
08:03:07  <Rubidium> planetmaker: wasn't your countries first rocket "club" mostly aiming at houses?
08:04:11  <planetmaker> no. The first rocket clubs wanted to go to space
08:04:33  <peter1139> Houses, via space.
08:05:11  <planetmaker>
08:06:36  <planetmaker> but of course, as usual, anything which can be used as a weapon will be used as a weapon ultimately
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08:12:16  <planetmaker> migt be the better reference thereof
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08:31:10  <V453000> clay pit? :D
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08:33:12  <V453000> hm :)
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08:44:46  <LordAro> such netsplit
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09:00:34  <LSky`> yay.
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09:09:16  <LordAro> super stable oftc is super stable
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10:36:20  <NGC982_> Morning.
10:40:22  <Xaroth|Work> <insert current-time-based greeting here>
10:41:09  <V453000> <insert opposite time-based-greeting here>
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10:49:30  <LordAro> <flibble>
10:50:08  <Absolutis> <3
10:50:30  <V453000> E>
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11:27:22  <NGC982_> You guys suck.
11:33:47  <Xaroth|Work> Somehow I don't really care :P
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12:12:08  <NGC982_> Is there any way to improve latency whilst on a slow wireless connection?
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12:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> get a wired connection
12:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> also, reducing the bandwidth may help
12:23:08  <NGC3982> I tried that. It seems like it's simply way to slow.
12:25:53  <Rubidium> slow wireless as in mobile phone?
12:26:23  <Rubidium> that includes things like wireless in trains, busses and ships
12:26:25  <peter1139> Slow wireless as in satellite?
12:26:48  <Rubidium> satphone is a mobile phone as well, so falls somewhat in the same category
12:27:15  <Rubidium> although satphone latency is mostly due to there being many nanoseconds between the ground and the satphone and back
12:27:24  <peter1139> Yeah, not really, different tech.
12:27:57  <Rubidium> for 'normal' mobile phones a lot of the latency is caused by the transmission and collision avoidance algorithms
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12:47:44  <planetmaker> we had this morning a video call which actually went over satellite. It's funny to actually see that lag (again)
12:48:40  <Eddi|zuHause> probably depends on whether it's a geostationary satellite or a "normal" satellite
12:50:04  <planetmaker> that I dunno. But I know that no other communication means that satellite were possible
12:50:29  <planetmaker> 700 km off-shore in the Pacific has no cables or mobile transmitters
12:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that mobile coverage in the ocean is a bitch
12:51:20  <planetmaker> yeah, quite
12:51:27  <NGC3982> Rubidium: No, just bad wireless connection to my home router.
12:51:31  <NGC3982> b/g/n.
12:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: wireless latency comes mostly from collisions/mangled packages needing to be resent. if over the same radio bandwidth you send less data, more space can be used for error correction, avoiding resending packages. but that may run deeper into the protocols than the average home router would usually allow
12:54:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm certainly no expert
12:54:58  <NGC3982> I see
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13:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: switching channels may help, as they might be differently affected by interference
13:17:52  <NGC3982> I have dynamic switching via ddwrt on my e3000
13:17:59  <NGC3982> And it actually works pretty well
13:18:06  <NGC3982> Although, i have found the problem
13:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that means
13:18:32  <NGC3982> It scans and changes automaticly if there are other networks nearby on the same channels.
13:18:45  <NGC3982> The router is badly mounted, though
13:19:00  <NGC3982> I need to read up on how linksys radios should be pointed correctly
13:19:33  <Pinkbeast> So once you get n of them in the same area they channel-surf constantly?
13:20:05  <NGC3982> I guess it has some kind of flood limit
13:20:18  <NGC3982> It usually changes once every two weeks or something
13:36:36  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, be my guest to split the grfid thing from action8. Actually that was my thought, too. Just lazy
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13:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> what makes you assume that i am less lazy than you? :p
13:55:07  <planetmaker> nothing. But it's worth a try. And *you* complained. Thus you're entitled to go by your suggestion and fix it
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13:55:29  <V453000> haha!
13:55:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think "entitled" is the right word :p
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13:56:13  <planetmaker> oh, it is :P. But you can also replace it by obliged, if you prefer
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14:27:32  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: a danger of splitting the GRF ID ranges off is that (much) fewer people see them; I won't notice a small link instead of a heading saying "Used ranges" or "Reserved ranges" or something like that
14:28:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that's a matter of presenting the link?
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15:09:47  <frosch123> V453000: isn't there supposed to be water in a clay pit?
15:09:58  <V453000> thought so
15:10:02  <V453000> but is there? :D
15:10:05  <frosch123> or at least yeti excrements
15:19:48  <planetmaker> eeew
15:20:02  <planetmaker> hi though :P
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15:36:26  <frosch123> he, at least the planeset topic is funny :)
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16:14:30  <Alberth> hmm, steelmill and farm in the middle of tokyo :p
16:15:09  <planetmaker> :)
16:15:42  <Diablo-D3> sounds about right
16:16:34  <planetmaker> I like your sense for detail wrt yeti industries, Alberth :) +1
16:17:01  <Diablo-D3> what are we disgussing?
16:18:16  <Alberth> yeti industries, and tokyo, I think
16:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> we're not disgusting
16:18:50  * Alberth thinks Diablo-D3 means "discussing"
16:19:12  <Diablo-D3> I am neither dissing nor cussing.
16:19:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "disguessing" makes not a lot of sense
16:19:54  <Alberth> in that case, I don't understand your question
16:20:08  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: =|
16:20:15  <Diablo-D3> So what are we dicussing?
16:20:54  <planetmaker> <Alberth> yeti industries, and tokyo, I think
16:21:35  <Diablo-D3> Yeah, I dont understand the reference
16:22:00  <Alberth>
16:22:27  <Alberth>
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16:26:40  <Diablo-D3> I like that pit
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16:27:49  <Diablo-D3> btw, you know the train station grfs that add tiles that just react to waiting cargo?
16:28:15  <Diablo-D3> it'd be interesting if a grf could make those randomly appear on grass tiles
16:28:42  <Alberth> you can make station tiles that look like grass
16:29:14  <Alberth> but grass tiles are not part of the station, so they cannot access station information
16:29:46  <planetmaker> a station grf could use grass as its ground sprite, so it's possible. Not sure any which shows cargo does so, though
16:30:21  <planetmaker> ISR and japanese stations have stations which show cargo nicely, though. And chips as well
16:30:22  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: yeah, it'd have to be a change in openttd I think
16:30:28  <planetmaker> no
16:30:38  <planetmaker> just write a newgrf ;)
16:30:40  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: I'd want it to be done automatically
16:30:48  <Diablo-D3> ie, I dont have to place the tiles myself
16:31:09  <planetmaker> sounds fun. tiles converting to become a station automatically
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16:31:22  <Diablo-D3> well, it wouldnt become part of the station
16:31:24  <planetmaker> whether yours or your competitors - who knows
16:31:29  <Alberth> a similar idea exists with industries
16:31:33  <planetmaker> or maybe the other station of yours?
16:31:42  <Diablo-D3> it would just be a visual effect to show cargo piling up
16:31:47  <Alberth> where they grow as they become larger
16:31:59  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: oh that'd be really neat
16:32:13  <Alberth> ECS does it to some extent
16:32:30  <Alberth> it has grassy tiles that get used as the production goes up, afaik
16:32:48  <Diablo-D3> well, it'd be neat if an industry can grow like buildings do in cities
16:32:56  <Diablo-D3> like, little house eventually become giant skyscrapers
16:33:31  <planetmaker> unfortunately that's not alike at all
16:33:58  <planetmaker> at least not if it comes to growing in size wrt to tile coverage. Changing the looks - rather easy
16:34:08  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: it'd require both
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16:34:18  <Diablo-D3> for a coherent look anyways
16:34:30  <Alberth> houses also don't grow in number of tiles
16:34:42  <Diablo-D3> yeah, they dont
16:34:45  <Diablo-D3> I wish they could though
16:34:59  <Alberth> you could start with a number of small buildings as industry, and gradually make it one big building
16:35:25  <Diablo-D3> it'd be neat if forests could grow
16:35:34  <Alberth> they do :p
16:35:49  <Diablo-D3> what, they keep eating more nearby tiles?
16:35:54  <Diablo-D3> Ive never seen that happen
16:36:11  <Alberth> no, in growing stages
16:36:34  <Diablo-D3> Im talking about a forestry industry spot
16:36:37  <Diablo-D3> not trees
16:36:45  <Diablo-D3> its always the same 4x4? block
16:37:13  <Alberth> industries can pretty much have any size, probably upto some limit
16:37:22  <Alberth> see eg FIRS
16:37:34  <Diablo-D3> well, whats the most impressive industry replacement now?
16:37:47  <planetmaker> IIRC the limit is around 15x15 or so
16:37:59  <Diablo-D3> woah, 15x15 would be awesome
16:38:02  <Alberth> depends on what you mean with "impressive"
16:38:21  <Alberth> I prefer the default-ish industries, tbh
16:38:34  <Diablo-D3> well, I want stuff thats bigger in the game
16:38:42  <Diablo-D3> tiny industries just feel wrong to me
16:39:43  <Alberth> scales are all wrong in openttd
16:39:53  <Diablo-D3> yeah
16:40:00  <Alberth> don't try to fix it, it won't work
16:40:07  <Diablo-D3> like, a steel mill should be three times the size it is
16:40:18  <Diablo-D3> it should be a whole complex of buildings
16:40:20  <Alberth> these sizes are all designed for good game play
16:40:39  <Diablo-D3> well, good game play at small map sizes
16:41:02  <Alberth> nobody requires you to play at a bigger size
16:43:41  <planetmaker> hm, the default steel mill has quite a complex of buildings. Several furnances, some other storage buildings...
16:44:12  <planetmaker> and it takes up as much space as makes up for a significant portion of a small town
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16:44:31  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: yeah, but it looks like one monolithic part
16:44:44  <Diablo-D3> like I could pick it up and set it somewhere else in my model railroad
16:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> just watch an industry under construction
16:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> to see its parts
16:54:08  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, thats always interesting
16:54:22  <Diablo-D3> but like, FIRS has industries that have grass tiles in between the parts
16:55:17  <Diablo-D3> the steel mill Im visualizing in my head would be like, have overhead pipes or conveyers or something that rail or veh could pass under
16:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, make it...
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17:01:37  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: not an artist
17:01:47  <Alberth> nobody is at first
17:02:00  <Alberth> see it as a challenge
17:02:02  <Diablo-D3> Ive tried being an artist before, Im noit one.
17:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make a framework and then wait for artists to fill in the blanks
17:03:16  <planetmaker> code it with like block graphics. And hope someone draws it actually to look like something. Like CETS :)
17:04:37  <Eddi|zuHause> pixeltool probably helps with blocks
17:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that remotely resemble the shape that you intended
17:05:33  <Diablo-D3> yeah, unfortunately I dont really have spare time for that
17:05:37  <Diablo-D3> my company doesnt run itself =/
17:06:04  <V453000> pay somebody to draw your ideas then :D
17:06:35  <Diablo-D3> dont have spare money for that =P
17:06:52  <V453000> in that case your idea will probably stay in your head only :P
17:07:36  <Diablo-D3> yeah, thats why I usually quit playing openttd
17:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> question: why is it called "minecraft" when i spent most of the time farming and breeding animals?
17:07:53  <Diablo-D3> so much stuff it could do to attract more players, and it just doesnt.
17:08:04  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: why is minecraft popular =/
17:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> because it's retro-nerd-y
17:08:46  <Diablo-D3> but its not
17:08:51  <Diablo-D3> it doesnt look retro at all
17:09:07  <Diablo-D3> it looks like a bunch of cubes with crappy textures on them rendered with a rather broken rendering pipeline
17:09:20  <Alberth> aka "retro"  :p
17:09:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. and the challenge is to make recognizable entities with limited pixels
17:10:06  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: I dont get it then
17:10:17  <Diablo-D3> its like playing with lego, but you only get 2x2 blocks.
17:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
17:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it goes against the trend for ultra-realism that commercial games do
17:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause> everyone can add more pixels. that doesn't mean it gets more creative
17:11:46  <V453000> Alberth: I even added 2 ladders for climbing! :D
17:12:03  <Alberth> yetis will love you!
17:12:05  <V453000> the spiral was meant to rotateand pull things up, will see how that goes
17:12:26  <V453000> Alberth: the ladders are in the picture already, they are on the square constructions atm, yo probably missed them :P
17:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: like an artesian well?
17:12:39  <V453000> wtf is artesian well
17:12:53  <Diablo-D3> its a well that flows on its own
17:13:08  <V453000> :d
17:13:11  <Diablo-D3> underground pressure is high enough that unless you cap it, it floods until the underground water runs out
17:13:18  <V453000> right
17:13:47  <Diablo-D3> is yeti playable yet?
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17:14:04  <V453000> no but soon will be
17:14:05  <Alberth> spiral is normally not vertical, so you can use gravity to keep the stuff you're transporting at the bottom. A vertical spiral won't work on that principle.
17:14:16  <Alberth> but it may not be a problem :)
17:14:24  <V453000> Alberth: it rotates in the other direction
17:14:31  <V453000> so the stuff just lies on it and is transported up
17:14:44  <V453000> clay is sticky! :D
17:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, a spiral for moving up stuff can't be vertical
17:14:55  <V453000> pfffgufjt
17:14:56  <V453000> :D
17:14:57  <V453000> hm
17:15:00  <V453000> it stays for now :D
17:15:04  <planetmaker> true, though :)
17:15:09  <V453000> might make a lift later
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17:15:29  <planetmaker> best efficiency at angle of repose :)
17:15:33  <Alberth> V, sorry for being such a techy :)
17:15:43  <V453000> its good :)
17:16:08  <Diablo-D3> so if I wanted to do single player right now
17:16:11  <Diablo-D3> whats the best industry replacement
17:16:27  <V453000> original, opengfx+, firs
17:16:29  <V453000> in that order
17:17:10  <V453000> basic temperate economy in firs is considerably better than the rest of firs but still
17:17:24  <juzza1> define best
17:17:27  <Diablo-D3> what about ECS?
17:18:01  <V453000> ECS has many annoying features which basically break it
17:18:09  <V453000> not to mention that even setting it up right takes like an hour
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17:39:14  <andythenorth> openttd could phone home with every grfid it sees
17:39:35  <andythenorth> or maybe it’s like SSL certs, you have to apply for one
17:39:38  <andythenorth> and prove who you are
17:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> like that worked out well...
17:40:20  <andythenorth> yeah brilliantly
17:40:31  <andythenorth> and not a way for cert issuers to make money on bad service
17:45:50  <Rubidium> we just need a RIPE_NCC and such that handle the distribution of ranges of IDs
17:46:12  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26663 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-06-24 17:46:04 UTC)
17:46:13  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:14  <DorpsGek> japanese - 31 changes by guppy
17:46:15  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
17:46:16  <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 19 changes by 2rB
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17:51:16  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause gets the “voice of reason” prize today
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17:51:53  <Wolf01> hello o/
17:53:32  <Alberth> moin
18:10:08  <andythenorth> also, maybe I am stupid, why do grfs need more than one grfid?
18:10:30  <Alberth> spare ones!
18:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, because nobody implemented action14 for ttdpatch
18:11:03  <Alberth> planet maker said yesterday that a different grfid was used when you break backwards compatibility
18:11:18  <planetmaker> what?
18:11:32  <Diablo-D3> er?
18:11:33  <andythenorth> not any more
18:11:40  <Diablo-D3> grfs dont have a version field?
18:11:44  <planetmaker> Alberth, once upon a time, yes.
18:11:51  <andythenorth> they do in a modern version of *TTD
18:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: they do, in the action14
18:12:09  <Alberth> planetmaker: I said "was"  :)
18:12:11  <andythenorth> archaic versions that aren’t developed don’t support action 14
18:12:16  <planetmaker> Alberth, nowadays, all you need is one single ID for a NewGRF throughout its entire life - however incompatible subsequent versions are, it doesn't matter anymore
18:12:32  <andythenorth> of course, being a good open source project, we support dinosaur-age systems
18:13:00  <planetmaker> let's announce to break compatibility with 1.6
18:13:03  * Alberth would be a bad open source dev then
18:13:20  <planetmaker> and require action14 and at least grf v7
18:13:29  <planetmaker> or better grf v8
18:13:37  <Alberth> grf v9 :p
18:13:40  <planetmaker> :P
18:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> grf16
18:14:26  <Alberth> just drop grf action 8?
18:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: what's that supposed to solve?
18:15:28  <andythenorth> I’m still unclear what the actual problem is :)  Maybe I’m thick
18:15:36  <Alberth> action 8 is clearly not working, is it? :)
18:15:42  <andythenorth> I used some ranges OzTrans would like, I offered to change
18:15:46  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that allows to replace the linear grfid/version schema with a distributed one
18:16:06  <frosch123> each newgrf lists the md5sums of the grfs, it is an update for
18:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem is, that was never the actual problem. only a symptom
18:16:34  <frosch123> allows easy forking without the need to switch grfids and still keeping compatible
18:16:39  <andythenorth> ok, so what’s the actual problem? o_O
18:16:49  <andythenorth> the problem is uniquely identifying grfs?
18:16:55  <andythenorth> so you can disable your grf against them?
18:16:57  <andythenorth> or what?
18:17:01  <planetmaker> damn, I like that idea, frosch123
18:17:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is no problem
18:17:12  <frosch123> just drink some tea
18:17:21  <andythenorth> I am back on coffee
18:17:23  <andythenorth> strong coffee
18:17:28  <Rubidium> I think the md5sum idea won't work for development versions, especially with NMLs
18:17:28  <andythenorth> life is better that way
18:17:34  <frosch123> planetmaker: get's lenghty though, unless you have access to the intermediate grfs
18:17:52  <Diablo-D3> so hrm
18:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and how do you add the ID of the previous version to your grf automatically on editing?
18:18:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your code generator does it?
18:18:09  <frosch123> bananas adds it on upload
18:18:15  <frosch123> :p
18:18:17  <andythenorth> presumably by reserving CA, OzTrans can read the first byte or whatever, and doesn’t have to track all his grfids?
18:18:37  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and then how do you publish non-bananas alpha versions?
18:18:52  <frosch123> i just define non-bananas as non-published
18:19:04  <andythenorth> published = distributed
18:19:09  <andythenorth> if you don’t distribute, you don’t get uid
18:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and there your idea falls into pieces
18:19:14  <planetmaker> frosch123, yes, it does, I know. Hard to automatically create the list of needed md5sums... hm
18:19:15  <Diablo-D3> 2cc + egrvts + av8 + fish
18:19:40  <frosch123> planetmaker: plus ofc, the issue with md5sum on the result of a compiler not being the right thing, as rb pointed out :p
18:19:53  <andythenorth> I am still unclear what the actual root problem is, but there must be one, right?
18:19:58  <andythenorth> otherwise there’s nothing to discuss
18:20:13  * andythenorth -> coffee
18:20:16  <Diablo-D3> + firs + ttrs3
18:20:22  <Diablo-D3> would that make for a decent game?
18:21:05  <planetmaker> for some definitions of 'decent', probably. Not sure how well 2ccts deals with FIRS, but should do well
18:21:09  <frosch123> ttrs generally does not make for a decent game :p
18:21:10  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: try AV9 instead
18:21:13  <andythenorth> it’s better
18:21:25  <andythenorth> fewer planes
18:21:27  <Alberth> Diablo-D3:  nuts, 256x1024, default industries, sub-tropical
18:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the root problem is people having different opinions on what "reserving" an ID for future use means, and how strictly "conventions" should be followed
18:21:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: try planeset, it has no aircraft ranges :p
18:21:44  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: I never cared for nuts
18:21:52  <andythenorth> well it’s a convention that grfs are uploaded to bananas
18:21:52  <frosch123> (my favorite quote from today)
18:21:58  <Alberth> Diablo-D3: default trainset works too
18:22:08  <Diablo-D3> whats wrong with 2cc then?
18:22:10  <andythenorth> it’s a convention that grfs don’t disable themselves just because the author doesn’t like engine pool
18:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and when these opinions collide, neither side trying to go a step towards the other
18:22:30  <Alberth> Diablo-D3: never used it, but from the forum topic, I'd say toooooo many trains
18:22:34  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the most interesting thing is that the people who whine loudest follow the "rules" just as badly as most. With the notable exceptions of Pikka and mb who actually use only "their range" and that's it.
18:22:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in the case where there’s a camp (me) whose opinion is “don’t really care” surely I have to get out the way?
18:22:42  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: yeah it has an absolute crapload
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18:23:04  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: you use it when you're making art with openttd instead of playing it
18:23:25  <Alberth> Diablo-D3: ok, I like to play, and build tracks, and connect industries
18:23:30  <planetmaker> All other users fall in the category "use random IDs" or "only wrote one NewGRF"
18:23:52  <Alberth> I think I actually made 2 newgrfs :p
18:23:54  <Diablo-D3> actually, whats the most interesting town replaement?
18:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> swedish houses
18:24:12  <planetmaker> swedish is nice
18:24:17  <andythenorth> lighting is wrong :(
18:24:19  * andythenorth is sad
18:24:25  <planetmaker> :-(
18:24:27  <Rubidium> probably andy's future MITR ;)
18:24:42  <andythenorth> I draw the line at houses
18:24:45  <andythenorth> I’m done there
18:24:55  <andythenorth> I am thinking of Iron Pipe though
18:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the only GRF so far that doesn't spam your towns with skyscrapers
18:25:08  <andythenorth> pikka’s town thing
18:25:11  <andythenorth> try that
18:25:17  <andythenorth> TAI
18:25:32  <planetmaker> TAI is broken imho. Creates too many non-houses
18:25:33  <Diablo-D3> yeah if I cant have skyscrapers that take up 4 blocks
18:25:36  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: if you use FIRS, pick a basic economy
18:25:47  <Diablo-D3> then I'd rather have no skyscrapers at all
18:26:05  <planetmaker> thus I have towns surrounded by labyrinths of roads w/o houses between them
18:27:33  <frosch123> <- planetmaker: i found a grfid generator :p
18:27:51  <andythenorth> timestamps
18:27:52  <Diablo-D3> wait holy crap
18:27:54  <Diablo-D3> av9 exists?
18:27:58  <andythenorth> frosch123 does troll
18:27:58  <Diablo-D3> I thought that was just a joke
18:28:03  <andythenorth> AV9 is real
18:28:06  <andythenorth> much better
18:28:06  * Alberth considered using the topic number of tt-f :p
18:28:15  <frosch123> also nice :p
18:28:18  <Absolutis> but how do you prevent 2 people making grf at the same time? checkmate atheists
18:28:38  <Alberth> you don't
18:28:43  <Diablo-D3> heqs or egrvts?
18:28:43  <frosch123> Absolutis: we just shoot one
18:28:52  <frosch123> too many of them are annoying
18:29:08  <Alberth> yeah, 5 grfs is sufficient
18:29:17  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: both
18:30:52  <Diablo-D3> why both?
18:31:24  <andythenorth> no buses in HEQS
18:31:29  <andythenorth> no normal trucks either
18:31:49  <Diablo-D3> yeah but does heqs add anything useful?
18:32:12  <andythenorth> no
18:32:13  <andythenorth> :)
18:32:24  <planetmaker> HEQS basically cannot replace any other NewGRF. But can add nice special vehicles. Whether you find them useful... probably not. I like them
18:32:46  <Diablo-D3>
18:32:54  <Diablo-D3> thats what Im basing my opinion on
18:33:09  <Diablo-D3> 252t vehicles might be interesting
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18:34:15  <Diablo-D3> okay so I have egrvts, firs, heqs, swedish houses, and the swedish town name generator
18:34:31  <Diablo-D3> are there any grfs that actually do ships right?
18:34:46  <planetmaker> FISH does
18:34:57  <Diablo-D3> I thought fish was still rather low capacity
18:35:11  <andythenorth> yes
18:35:13  <andythenorth> it does it right
18:35:38  <andythenorth> there was a fork of FISH 2 that was going to make the capacity higher
18:35:43  <andythenorth> not sure if it got finished
18:35:51  <planetmaker> oh, redfish?
18:35:55  <andythenorth> maybe
18:36:00  <Diablo-D3> redfish?
18:36:00  <Diablo-D3> heh
18:36:03  <Diablo-D3> I saw that in the list
18:36:05  <andythenorth> FISH 2 tops out around 1080t or so
18:36:18  <andythenorth> FISH 2 is much better than FISH
18:36:19  <Diablo-D3> theres very large ships, and that seems to do it right
18:36:26  <Diablo-D3> but now its so right I need bigger industries to match
18:36:33  <andythenorth> which is why it’s wrong
18:36:43  <andythenorth> very large ships add nothing to your game
18:36:46  <andythenorth> I’ve tried it
18:36:47  <Diablo-D3> yeah =/
18:36:53  <Diablo-D3> I'd like physically huge ass ships though
18:37:02  <andythenorth> they don’t work
18:37:31  <Diablo-D3> so should I do fish2 or redfish?
18:37:45  * planetmaker thinks Diablo-D3 just needs everything bigger. Maybe he should try to play at 4x zoom exclusively :P
18:37:55  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: yeah but then I'd need smaller trains
18:38:26  <frosch123> there are narrow gauge sets
18:38:55  <andythenorth> 10cc
18:39:08  <andythenorth> or whatever pikka called it
18:39:17  <Diablo-D3> is there a good rail and station replacement thats worth using?
18:39:26  <Diablo-D3> since Im doing swedish houses, Ill be doing this in the snow
18:39:41  <andythenorth> I like canadian stations
18:39:56  <andythenorth> it’s the most complete passenger station set imho
18:40:19  <Diablo-D3> canadian stations isnt on bananas yet
18:40:33  <frosch123> Diablo-D3: "swedish rails" obviously
18:41:01  <Diablo-D3> I know it exists but I dont know if its any good
18:41:11  <andythenorth> canadian stations is great
18:41:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't actually change stations?
18:41:22  <frosch123> it's probably the best (realistic) track set
18:41:37  <Diablo-D3> rails doesnt do stations yet
18:41:37  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: which trainset are you using?
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18:41:42  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: I dont know
18:41:44  <Diablo-D3> I was considering 2cc
18:42:43  <Diablo-D3> so far Ive replaced veh, houses, ships
18:43:18  <Diablo-D3> is chips still the favorite non-pax station grf?
18:43:30  <andythenorth> ISR is the favourite
18:43:35  <andythenorth> I like CHIPS obviously :)
18:43:44  <Alberth> me too :)
18:43:46  <andythenorth> ISR got too big for my simple brain
18:43:53  <Alberth> I don't care for buildings
18:43:56  <Diablo-D3> ISR turned into an art grf
18:44:03  <Diablo-D3> too many non-station tiles to art it up
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18:44:21  <andythenorth> partly my fault
18:44:24  <andythenorth> I kept drawing more
18:44:32  <andythenorth> mart3p had to reject about 1/3 of my ideas :P
18:44:45  <Diablo-D3> so if I want to play and not art, chips?
18:44:54  <Alberth> you wisely decided not to add them to to chips :)
18:45:40  <andythenorth> it’s much easier to reject things when you already drew a lot for another grf :P
18:45:46  <andythenorth> same as FIRS basic is easier than FIRS big
18:45:57  <andythenorth> and Iron Horse doesn’t use a lot of the sprites I drew for UKRS 2 addons :P
18:45:59  <andythenorth> 'editing'
18:46:08  <Diablo-D3> so av8 2 or av9.8?
18:46:11  <Alberth> it takes a few iterations to find the sweet spot
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18:47:08  <Diablo-D3> what is iron horse? I saw it in the list but it has no desc
18:47:29  <andythenorth> it’s unfinished
18:47:35  <andythenorth> it’s playable but has bugs
18:47:50  <Diablo-D3> yeah but what does it do
18:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it irons horses
18:48:37  <Diablo-D3> so chips doesnt have a pax station, and canadian stations still isnt on bananas
18:49:24  <V453000> japanese stations are great for passengers
18:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> for passengers i almost exclusively use MB's newstations
18:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> ... but that's not on bananas either
18:50:19  <Diablo-D3> I wonder if FRISS is any good
18:50:33  <frosch123> that's only art, isn't it :p
18:50:33  <andythenorth> CHIPS uses the default pax station
18:50:39  <andythenorth> or small concrete platforms
18:50:44  <andythenorth> and there are station buildings
18:50:55  <Diablo-D3> ahh friss doesnt have stations yet
18:51:04  <frosch123> i think it is a new object set
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18:51:16  <Diablo-D3> yeah its that
18:51:19  <Diablo-D3> it does have rail though
18:52:32  <Diablo-D3> so I guess Ill try japanese style stations for pax
18:53:29  <andythenorth> how do people use grfs that aren’t on bananas?
18:53:35  <andythenorth> I don’t even remember how to install a grf
18:54:58  <frosch123> you don't have to if you do not play the game
18:55:09  <andythenorth> I do play the game :P
18:55:12  <andythenorth> currently
18:55:13  <andythenorth> most days
18:55:21  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: on linux, ~/.openttd/grfs iirc
18:55:58  <Diablo-D3> so which rail replacement and which train replacement goes well with firs and swedish houses?
18:56:25  <V453000> I never use newgrfs out of bananas either
18:56:27  <Diablo-D3> because 2cc and nars2 and ukrs2 are just too godamned bloated
18:56:27  <V453000> no reason to really
18:56:39  <Diablo-D3> and av8 is too goddamned big too
18:56:53  <V453000> nuts nuts? :P
18:57:00  <planetmaker> swedishrails obviously goes well with swedish houses ;)
18:57:05  <V453000> works great with newgrf industries, every cargo has its own wagon
18:57:11  <V453000> graphics wise
18:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS :)
18:57:19  <andythenorth> swedish trains?
18:57:46  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: well thats what Im asking, is swedish rails any good
18:57:57  <Diablo-D3> a lot of these grfs Ive noticed arent really any good
18:58:39  <V453000> swedish rails are great
18:58:44  <V453000> esp in arctic landscape
18:59:19  <Eddi|zuHause> swedish rails != swedish trains
18:59:20  <andythenorth> the only good grf is AV9
18:59:24  <andythenorth> all others are rubbish
18:59:32  <Diablo-D3> okay so swedish houses, rails, town names, heqs and egrvts 2, fish 2, and firs
18:59:35  <Diablo-D3> and chips
18:59:36  <Diablo-D3> so far
18:59:40  <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, I might have a slightly biased view on the quality of swedishrails ;) (and yes, swedish rails != swedish trains)
19:00:11  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: yes I know
19:00:19  <Diablo-D3> its just that Im trying to replace everything and see how it goes
19:00:32  <Diablo-D3> Im missing trains and planes at this point I think
19:00:32  <planetmaker> you know... just *try* and see
19:00:33  <Diablo-D3> oh, and roads
19:00:53  <V453000> NUTS Unrealistic Train Set! =D
19:00:54  * V453000 hides
19:01:07  <planetmaker> everyone here has an opinion on what's the right answer to your questions. And they will all differ
19:01:15  <andythenorth> AV9 for planes
19:01:39  <Diablo-D3> V453000: nuts is good for competetive play
19:01:46  <Diablo-D3> Im doing single player here
19:01:53  <V453000> how come?
19:02:06  <V453000> why would it be good for competition and not single player? :D what is the difference
19:02:15  <Diablo-D3> Im playing to play
19:02:23  <Diablo-D3> not to get the highest score the fastest
19:02:34  <V453000> well that is exactly what nuts is for? :D
19:02:48  <V453000> score and money is primitive, you dont need to care about that
19:03:12  <V453000> greater deeds like network construction is more interesting (playing to play? :P)
19:03:42  <Diablo-D3> so now Im down to road replacement and train replacement
19:03:54  <Diablo-D3> and pax if I dont use japanese stations
19:04:55  <andythenorth> don’t replace roads
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19:05:20  <andythenorth> no point
19:05:29  <V453000> if you use opengfx, American Road Replacement Set looks great
19:07:02  <V453000> I even drew tunnels for it =D
19:07:29  <Diablo-D3> now its just trains and possibly pax stations
19:08:58  <V453000> gave you hint for the former :)
19:09:28  <Diablo-D3> Im not doing nuts
19:10:27  <Alberth> some people just go nuts when considering nuts :)
19:11:14  <andythenorth> canadian trains
19:11:53  <Diablo-D3> there are no canadian grfs on banana
19:12:11  <andythenorth> go register on simuscape
19:12:17  <andythenorth> or whatever it is you do to get them
19:12:22  <andythenorth> canadian trains is good
19:12:28  <V453000> I think OzTrans left simuscape due to SAC being a bitch
19:12:32  <V453000>  /rumor
19:13:01  <andythenorth> unhelpful
19:13:12  <V453000> well combining Tropic Refurbishment Set with NARS was quite popular when I did that Diablo-D3
19:13:24  <V453000> UKRS works too
19:13:34  <V453000> UKRS2 is nice as well
19:19:04  <NGC3982> UKRS2 <3.
19:19:18  <NGC3982> With CHIPS, FISH and FIRS.
19:19:31  <NGC3982> Makes for a good two day play.
19:20:32  <andythenorth> so what shall I change Iron Horse grfid to?
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19:20:53  <andythenorth> also Road Hog
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19:21:42  <Alberth> AN 0 0   and AN 0 1  ?
19:22:17  <andythenorth> are those ranges free?
19:22:57  <Alberth> 41 4E XX XX A N _ _ FISH ship set    <-- you may find some FISH there, according to the specs
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19:24:19  <andythenorth> I dunno
19:24:34  <andythenorth> FISH is by different authors to Iron Horse or Road Hog
19:25:09  <planetmaker> frosch earlier had a link to a time2hex converter
19:26:24  <Alberth>    <-- from the list by RB
19:27:36  <andythenorth> oh
19:27:47  <andythenorth> so BROS stole a FISH ID
19:28:10  <planetmaker> or one of your F12500 range.
19:28:16  <andythenorth> how many ranges do I have?
19:28:21  <andythenorth> quite a few
19:28:22  <planetmaker> one per NewGRF
19:28:24  <planetmaker> :)
19:28:26  <andythenorth> awesome
19:28:34  <andythenorth> maybe I use 4444
19:28:38  <andythenorth> it’s nice
19:28:49  <andythenorth> full of good grfs to have as neighbours
19:32:07  <andythenorth> hmm
19:32:09  <andythenorth> grfcodec
19:33:00  <NGC3982> bajs.
19:34:12  <Diablo-D3> [03:19:11] <NGC3982> UKRS2 <3.
19:34:17  <Diablo-D3> isnt nars by the same guy?
19:34:57  <NGC3982> Yes, both are to my knowlegde Pikka
19:35:04  <NGC3982> But i guess many people are involved in it
19:35:08  <NGC3982> Some idling around here.
19:35:12  <Diablo-D3> yeah
19:35:16  <Diablo-D3> no way one person could do all that
19:35:27  <Diablo-D3> not unless he started like ten years ago
19:36:01  <NGC3982> You would be amazed on how dedicated these people are
19:36:07  * NGC3982 looks at Andy.
19:36:11  <Diablo-D3> heh yeah
19:36:23  <Diablo-D3> opengfx+ has trains, hrm
19:37:04  <Diablo-D3> erm, apparently it doesnt add anything
19:37:18  <NGC3982> No, it does not. It makes the vanilla stuff better.
19:37:21  <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, you'll be amazed. And surely he *did* start 10 years ago...
19:37:36  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: hrm maybe he did
19:37:47  * NGC3982 puts a celestar up PM's poopoo.
19:37:56  <Diablo-D3> heh
19:37:57  <planetmaker> urgs
19:38:09  <Diablo-D3> someone made a pair of gifs that adds sh50 and 60 and millenium z2
19:38:22  <Diablo-D3> that actually is useful for servers
19:38:40  <planetmaker> totally. Especially as those are default vehicles
19:39:01  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: er, sh30 and 40 and z1 are
19:39:07  <Diablo-D3> and it adds x2014
19:39:15  <Diablo-D3> I assume it uses the same graphics but ups the specs
19:40:43  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: look at brianum in bananas
19:42:55  <andythenorth> hrm
19:43:00  <andythenorth> so I need a test case for grfcodec
19:45:20  <andythenorth> frosch123: the plot thickens
19:46:22  <andythenorth> I’ve got it down to a single line that fails
19:46:36  <andythenorth> (single sprite)
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19:47:40  <andythenorth> sprite 111 (line 443)
19:47:48  <andythenorth> if I change that to chaplin_0.png, the grf compies
19:47:50  <andythenorth> compiles *
19:48:05  <andythenorth> otherwise
19:48:06  <andythenorth> sprites/graphics/null_trailing_part.png: Error: Sprite y extends beyond end of the spritesheet.
19:48:07  <andythenorth> Spritesheet has 32 lines, sprite wants 10..34
19:48:58  <andythenorth> the successful compile still throws incorrect whitespace warnings, but at least it compiles
19:50:20  <NGC3982> For some reason, when starting a dedicated server using the -c option, the server_advertise is defaultly 'OFF' even though it's on in the selected config.
19:50:35  <NGC3982> Everything else on the server responds to the chosen config file.
19:51:01  <NGC3982> Not the biggest of issues, i guess. :>
19:52:06  <NGC3982> Or wait, it can be. I use the reload_cfg option on my advertised servers. I guess i should make sure server_advertise is set to off when the server restarts automaticly.
19:53:44  <planetmaker> andythenorth, where does sprite 111 want pixels in lines 10...34? Doesn't it ask for the area between (0,0) and (9,9) (included)?
19:54:14  <andythenorth> exactly
19:54:36  <andythenorth> my grfcodec simply can’t count
19:55:15  <andythenorth> I think it transposes the offsets from one sprite to another
19:55:19  <andythenorth> is my guess
19:55:45  <andythenorth> offsets / crops
19:56:50  <andythenorth> maybe my clang uses a different kind of number :P
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20:02:27  <Diablo-D3> is the 32bit mode stuff worth installing?
20:06:40  <Rubidium> andythenorth: if only it were easy to locally install a test environment for OS X... it's an interesting bug to try to find
20:06:51  <andythenorth> I could send you a mac :P
20:06:56  <Alberth> Diablo-D3: you make the wrong assumption that there is general consensus over such things :)
20:07:19  * Rubidium was banned from Mac at school
20:07:26  <Rubidium> *Macs
20:07:28  <andythenorth>
20:07:45  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: just asking if its ready yet
20:07:53  <andythenorth> my offer stands to send a mac to anyone who actually wants to poke at OS X bugs :P
20:07:57  <andythenorth> we have a stack in the office
20:08:06  <andythenorth> I’m not warrantying they are good :P
20:08:07  <Alberth> Diablo-D3: name one finished newgrf? :)
20:08:30  <Rubidium> Alberth: may I? ;)
20:09:06  * Alberth believes Rb knows such things :)
20:10:15  <Rubidium> I'd reckon frosch123's "Debug Vehicles" is finished, and "Original vehicle names" is quite likely finished as well
20:10:34  <planetmaker> snowlinemod is finished, too
20:11:27  <andythenorth> :o
20:11:34  <andythenorth> apparently pipeline trains have drivers
20:11:35  <andythenorth> and guards
20:11:37  <andythenorth> I just killed 4
20:11:42  <planetmaker> :)
20:11:55  <planetmaker> those are works who service the pipe
20:11:58  <planetmaker> poor chaps
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20:12:57  <planetmaker> saw today the gears for an deep ocean drilling equipment. Impressive... and easy to take one with them, if something goes wrong
20:13:03  <andythenorth> must be like that pipe thing in James Bond
20:14:25  <Rubidium> andythenorth: oh joy...
20:15:03  <Rubidium> a site that forces you wait either 10 minutes or disable ad blocking... and one that requires you to like or tweet about it (don't have either) or wait 10 minutes
20:16:42  <andythenorth> sorry :(
20:16:49  <andythenorth> I just googled :P
20:17:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i can never get enough of this:
20:17:41  <Rubidium> rickroll?
20:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> no :)
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20:20:33  <Diablo-D3> dear god
20:20:35  <Diablo-D3> I just tried zbas
20:20:40  <Diablo-D3> zbase
20:21:30  <V453000> shit isnt it :)
20:21:41  <Diablo-D3> yes.
20:21:44  <Diablo-D3> yes it is.
20:22:05  <Eddi|zuHause> even though you're saying the same thing, i don't think you mean the same thing :p
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20:25:59  * Diablo-D3 generates 4096x4096 map
20:26:42  <V453000> fucking christ
20:27:37  <andythenorth> Silicon Valley
20:27:44  <andythenorth> I’ve destroyed half the town for a pipeline :P
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20:28:25  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: makes you wonder whether you need to perform some sort of check that perform some sort of spelling check on all the crap that's written on the internet
20:28:31  <Diablo-D3> chips doesnt have premade stations?
20:28:47  <Rubidium> hmm... also bad English
20:29:13  <Rubidium> anyhow, some kind of certificate requirement that you can and do perform spelling checks before writing anything on the internet
20:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i heard of a great thing that may apply here. somebody had an "automatic troll filter". he calculated a troll probability based on which words were used, and by that probability, the CAPTCHA fails even if solved correctly.
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20:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so if someone actually really wants to send this comment about hitler, he may need to solve the captcha 8 times
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20:36:09  <Diablo-D3> holy crap 4096x4096 takes awhile
20:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> don't try with ECS :p
20:38:39  <Diablo-D3> Im not, using firs
20:38:48  <Diablo-D3> industry generation, 14500 of 20480
20:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, make sure your town name generator has enough names
20:39:16  <Diablo-D3> said 128 names
20:39:30  <toobored`> hehehe. I discovered what Eddi|zuHause just said two days ago
20:40:07  <Diablo-D3> 16000 of 2480
20:40:15  <Diablo-D3> it took 2 minutes to get that far.
20:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i posted Best of YGS 1&2 before
20:43:10  <Diablo-D3> 19000 of 20480
20:43:22  <andythenorth> oops
20:43:25  <Diablo-D3> this should be threaded tbh
20:43:34  <andythenorth> use ‘unload and leave empty’ with cdist :P
20:43:44  <andythenorth> I bridged some networks :)
20:43:53  <andythenorth> wood all over the place
20:44:04  <planetmaker> :)
20:44:14  <Diablo-D3> I dont see the point of cdist outside of pax and mail
20:44:31  <Diablo-D3> 20000
20:44:54  <andythenorth> avoids transfer orders
20:45:01  <andythenorth> substitutes them with ‘unload’ orders :P
20:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> *Supplies
20:45:14  * andythenorth is a recent convert
20:45:22  <planetmaker> with cargodist they lost most of its use
20:45:25  <Diablo-D3> 20200
20:45:35  <Diablo-D3> 300
20:45:44  <Diablo-D3> 400
20:45:55  <Diablo-D3> 1.4 million trees later
20:46:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: wanna bet the map will be unplayable and you throw it away quickly?
20:46:43  <Diablo-D3> why? what did I forget?
20:47:07  <planetmaker> that size matters ;)
20:49:06  <toobored`> andythenorth: beware when bridging networks.
20:49:17  <toobored`> balances change superfast
20:50:04  * andythenorth funds £30m of forests
20:50:06  <toobored`> eventually, I just use transfer orders on smaller routes that end up to more central stations to maximize capacity
20:50:08  <andythenorth> it’s a forest revival
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21:06:04  <__ln__> do conductors sell tickets in RE trains?
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21:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on the region
21:07:13  <Eddi|zuHause> some yes, others no
21:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure in which kind of region you are before boarding :p
21:07:59  <__ln__> ok, hopefully i won't need to try
21:12:41  <__ln__> anyway, i've been looking at ticket prices from czech to bavaria, and seems that buying a domestic czech ticket, ticket across the border + bayern-ticket is a bit cheaper than an international ticket.
21:13:20  <V453000> you wont get from czech republic alive anyway, dont worry
21:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know about bayern, but sachsen has some special cross-border ticket
21:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it may be something like "Sachsen-Böhmen-Ticket"
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21:16:06  <__ln__> looks like there's bayern-böhmen-ticket
21:17:31  <Eddi|zuHause> these things are usually valid only in regional trains
21:17:47  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if that's what you're looking for
21:17:48  <__ln__> but i'm in the wrong country, and buyin online is not possible without a printer i guess.
21:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there may also be special rail tickets for foreigners that are valid for like 30 days in all trains, but have to be bought while outside the country
21:19:24  <fonsinchen> Print it in some internet cafe?
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21:23:22  <__ln__> could be too much work just to save a few euros
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22:32:16  <Wolf01> 'night all
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23:16:53  <DanMacK> Hey all
23:17:01  <DanMacK> @seen Andythenorth
23:17:01  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: Andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <andythenorth> it’s a forest revival
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