Log for #openttd on 18th July 2014:
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06:56:40  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
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08:06:01  <planetmaker> moin
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08:24:45  <andythenorth> o/
08:25:07  <planetmaker> \o
08:28:51  <FLHerne> \o/
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08:42:13  <planetmaker> V453000, I guess you gotta try. Just from the sprites it looks as if the animation is extremely fine-grained
08:42:35  <planetmaker> But there's nothing else one could do than just check whether you need each or every 2nd, 3rd, 4th of them only
08:42:45  <V453000> wa
08:42:56  <V453000> ah
08:43:04  <planetmaker> I only saw motion when I compared 1st to 10th or so :P
08:43:11  <V453000> mhm :P
08:43:15  <V453000> will see
08:43:22  <V453000> this is for 25 fps and it was very fast in 25fps most of the time
08:43:33  <V453000> I think using all of them and using them in like 10-ish fps would be good
08:43:35  <planetmaker> openttd has 30fps. No less, no more. No change
08:44:21  <V453000> well the animation speed varies
08:45:04  <planetmaker> and animation can use 30, 15, 7.5, 3.75,... fps
08:45:09  <planetmaker> basically 30 / 2^n
08:45:10  <V453000> 15 is fine then
08:46:06  <planetmaker> in even more detail: (1000/30) / 2^n
08:46:07  <planetmaker> :P
08:46:11  <V453000> 128/15 is a nice 8 seconds
08:46:22  <V453000> or so
08:47:34  <V453000> can use 30 for some industries producing insanely fast, and 7.5 to start with
08:47:40  <V453000> 0 for unserviced ones? :P
08:47:45  <planetmaker> sure
08:48:05  <V453000> unserviced has 0 production so that should work :D
08:48:56  <planetmaker> basically what I tried to say: before you render everything with a zillion animation frames: try with one industry as of how many you really need
08:50:05  <V453000> will code one tonight
08:50:06  <V453000> and see
08:50:16  <V453000> rendering doesnt take effort :P
08:56:12  <planetmaker> V453000, slower speed does not necessarily mean more frames. As you can control the duration a frame is shown. So even for slow speeds it might work with less frames than you actually rendered / pushed
08:56:23  <planetmaker> which makes the NewGRF less cpu-heavy to use
08:57:06  <planetmaker> but yeah, needs testing. I'll be curious as of the results :)
09:01:50  <V453000> mhm :)
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10:23:41  <planetmaker> <-- hm, V453000, the gray stones, after compression should be smaller
10:23:47  <planetmaker> instead they seem to grow in size
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10:26:25  <V453000> that wmv is probably old
10:26:29  <V453000> check repository
10:26:36  <V453000> I measured the volume and it is 1:1
10:26:42  <V453000> (previously wasnt)
10:28:20  <V453000> xcept it is in the shadow most of the time XD
10:28:46  <V453000> but the difference should be visible
10:28:49  <V453000> sec I will make a new wmv :P
10:29:10  <planetmaker> when you stamp something the volume should even shrink, not just stay the same.
10:29:15  <LadyHawk> [18/7][11:22:42] -NickServ- This hostname matches an entry on the access list of nickname LadyHawk.  You
10:29:15  <LadyHawk> [18/7][11:22:42] -NickServ- have been automatically identified.
10:29:15  <LadyHawk> [18/7][11:24:42] Activating Cloak:
10:29:16  <LadyHawk> <3
10:29:18  <planetmaker> I'd assume 10% shrinkage or so
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10:30:21  <V453000> volume of result: 1,89 m3 volume of input: 2,01 m3 :P
10:30:28  <V453000> 5% :)
10:30:29  <planetmaker> :)
10:31:18  <planetmaker> so, V453000 which industry is the sawmill + stone stamper?
10:31:27  <V453000> 1X, this one? :D
10:31:33  <planetmaker> (that's the clear disadvantage of numbering instead of naming ;) )
10:31:37  <planetmaker> unrememberable :P
10:31:48  <V453000> oh you mean the name
10:31:52  <V453000> construction yard? :P
10:31:55  <planetmaker> yeah 1x
10:32:17  <planetmaker> indeed stones are smaller there now
10:32:19  <V453000> well once you remember that stone quarry, clay pit and  forest are 1A, 1B and 1C, it isnt that bad :P
10:32:22  <planetmaker> video is old
10:32:54  <planetmaker> it's something I need to remember. That's bad ;)
10:32:57  <V453000>
10:33:23  <planetmaker> All I usually can remember I saw a ... pit. Or a circle saw :)
10:33:27  <V453000> no you can remember either name, OR number :P OR both :P
10:33:37  <V453000> OR imagez =D
10:33:50  <V453000> and the stone should probably still be a bit smaller
10:33:58  <planetmaker> with an image I don#t need to remember names. With good naming it will explain what image is attached. Numbers never give that association :)
10:33:59  <V453000> OR the rock larger
10:34:09  <V453000> mhm :)
10:34:20  <V453000> 1X is multilingual? :P
10:34:35  <planetmaker> it's non-lingual
10:34:38  <V453000> :D
10:34:42  <V453000> it is omni-lingual
10:34:50  <V453000> xcept the shit with different letters :D
10:35:05  <V453000> hm I think the input stone should be larger
10:35:06  <V453000> Y?
10:35:16  <planetmaker> 1雹
10:35:23  <V453000> perfect
10:35:36  <planetmaker> 1달
10:35:51  <planetmaker> 		م1
10:38:44  <planetmaker> hm... translations...
10:43:25  <planetmaker> any chance to activate translations for yeti, V453000 ?
10:44:52  <V453000> I wouldnt do that at least yet
10:45:00  <planetmaker> why not?
10:45:11  <V453000> many strings are subject to change
10:45:30  <planetmaker> They are. And they would continuously adopt
10:49:06  <V453000> will see
10:49:10  <V453000> but you know what I think about translation
10:49:13  <planetmaker> and I don't see the industry and cargoe names change
10:49:18  <planetmaker> I do. And I totally disagree
10:49:25  <V453000> which is fine
10:49:31  <planetmaker> it's also a dent in my fun playing it, tbh
10:49:51  <planetmaker> it's one of the things stopping it being a perfect newgrf
10:50:15  <planetmaker> the love to the last detail lacking for this
10:50:36  <planetmaker> which you have elsewhere. Which makes it hard to understand really
10:51:03  <planetmaker> even more so as they don't cost you *anything*
10:53:58  <V453000> BAD FEATURE :)
10:54:14  <planetmaker> no. It's what makes the game popular and accessible
10:54:39  <V453000> I meant the missing translation being a bad feature
10:55:22  <planetmaker> a bad feature is missing them without good reason
10:56:18  <V453000> there is 1X 1A? :D :P
10:57:07  <planetmaker> doesn't translate well to Arabic, Korean, Chinese, Russian, or Thai ;)
10:57:22  <V453000> well enough :P
10:57:39  <planetmaker> might actually make it unplayable as openttd might not find any font to display it all. Thus showing only rectangles
10:57:47  <planetmaker> or what-not
10:58:15  <planetmaker> thus no translations might really cause problems for non-latin character systems
10:58:50  <planetmaker> or at least make it look very bad due to only bad font being available
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11:05:19  <planetmaker> should we maybe try how it goes and looks V453000 ?
11:09:16  <V453000> I still dont get what does anybody need translation for, 5 year olds are able to play the game without reading just as much
11:09:36  <V453000> and I dont get how does anybody not want to learn english when they exist on the internet
11:10:10  <__ln__> i bet there is a huge non-english internet which you and me are not aware of.
11:10:37  <planetmaker> many people speak less well English than you and me. And they'll be happy to understand things instead of just seeing it
11:10:54  <V453000> those people are a bad feature
11:11:01  <planetmaker> no, they aren't
11:13:01  <planetmaker> languages shape the way we think. Different languages lead to different ways to think and look at things. It's a bonus usually
11:17:07  <planetmaker> and anyway, it won't change how you play the game, nor shall it. But why deny others theirs if it doesn't cost you?
11:17:23  <planetmaker> just because you can? That's petty then really
11:18:25  <planetmaker> and it probably will give you also more testers
11:18:43  <planetmaker> which won't be bad. In the worst case you just ignore their advice ;)
11:30:10  <V453000> k, what does it require me to do
11:30:59  <planetmaker> Not much. It requires to add one or two files to the yeti repo - which I can do for you, if you like
11:31:28  <planetmaker> so people can translate. And the other allows the translation service to add back the translations to the repository. It's optional
11:31:34  <V453000> + pull before every pushint? or?
11:31:37  <V453000> pushing
11:32:00  <planetmaker> it's then advisable to pull before every *commit* (not push)
11:32:12  <planetmaker> though it only commits max. once per day, early evening
11:32:14  <V453000> right
11:32:19  <planetmaker> thus you know when
11:32:24  <V453000> that is not so bad
11:32:29  <V453000> do it then please
11:32:38  <planetmaker> happily will. thanks :)
11:33:04  <V453000> yes yes pleasure on my side meh unicorns blabla cowpig
11:33:18  <V453000>  /me opens discussion whether cowpig should be translateable
11:33:30  <planetmaker> :)
11:34:11  <planetmaker> and... yes: should be translatable. Kuhschwein
11:34:16  <V453000> pff
11:35:31  <planetmaker> Schweinekuh would work, too. And sound better. But also closer to a swear word :P
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11:35:49  <V453000> :D perfect
11:36:10  <planetmaker> the translation of pigdog is a swear word in German ;)
11:36:32  <V453000> didnt know that
11:36:37  <V453000> schweinhund? :D
11:36:41  <planetmaker> <-- there we go
11:36:45  <planetmaker> Schweinehund
11:36:53  <planetmaker> (so plural of pig)
11:37:29  <V453000> :D
11:37:30  <V453000> aha
11:37:38  <V453000> so multiple pigs + 1 dog = german wtf thing
11:37:38  <V453000> nice
11:38:33  <planetmaker> not so much wtf, but a mild version version of calling someone an asshole or so
11:38:50  <V453000> basically a person who is from the majority a pig
11:38:51  <V453000> :>
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11:39:03  <V453000> might want to get an exact ratio
11:39:16  <V453000> s0 how do I add e.g. czech translation to the shit?
11:39:27  <planetmaker> are you translator?
11:39:39  <V453000> idk, am I? :D
11:40:23  <V453000> I did manage to log in and I told it to create cs_cz
11:40:29  <planetmaker> no. But now. There wasn't a czech translator yet
11:40:34  <V453000> it sez upload language file to start translation
11:40:35  <V453000> :d
11:40:41  <planetmaker> uh?
11:40:58  <V453000> never mind :D
11:41:06  <planetmaker> it says to select language, no?
11:41:27  <V453000> all fine now
11:41:56  <V453000> WTF this quiz is tough
11:42:03  <planetmaker> :)
11:42:04  <V453000> I dont even know the translation for clay XD
11:42:10  <planetmaker> :D
11:42:10  <V453000> it is just clay.
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11:42:24  <planetmaker> In German it's Lehm or Ton
11:42:43  <V453000> ye, jíl or hlína
11:42:47  <V453000> the same almost
11:43:05  <planetmaker> almost, yes. The granularity differs slightly
11:43:35  <V453000> what is the .acc ?
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11:43:54  <planetmaker> probably cases for Czech. Dunno whether it has
11:43:58  <V453000> big, dat :d wat
11:44:19  <V453000> ._.
11:45:11  <planetmaker> oh gosh. It has a shitload of cases
11:45:45  <V453000> oh t hat
11:45:46  <V453000> nom voc
11:45:48  <V453000> jesus fuck
11:45:50  <V453000> the 7 things
11:45:52  <planetmaker> nom(inativ), gen(itiv), dat(iv), acc(usativ) voc(ativ) loc(ativ) ins(?) big(?) small(?)
11:45:54  <planetmaker> yeah
11:45:55  <V453000> I see
11:45:57  <V453000> amazing
11:46:04  <V453000> ins big small idk what is
11:46:06  <V453000> but the other yeah
11:46:18  <V453000> I will just fill in the first thing
11:46:25  <planetmaker> and obviously czech also has a shitload of genders...
11:46:33  <planetmaker> m, f, n, map, nmp, fp, np :P
11:47:01  <planetmaker> skip the cases, if you think it doesn't matter
11:47:08  <V453000> ye
11:47:11  <planetmaker> i.e. if the wording is the same
11:47:19  <V453000> I dont think the whole translation matters, remember? :P
11:47:31  <planetmaker> cargoes seem to need normal, gen and big and acc
11:47:36  <V453000> the cases almost always change the words somehow
11:47:46  <V453000> but it is understandable without it
11:48:16  <planetmaker> and mail has everything in the openttd lang file ;)
11:48:54  <V453000> is it just me or is the translation thingy giving me random strings to fill in? XD
11:49:30  <V453000> I gues it makes more sense to pull the file and edit it locally?
11:49:37  <V453000> or?
11:50:12  <planetmaker> I don't know the order it gives you strings
11:51:18  <V453000> hm, and every time I update some strings in english, the thingy will detect it and set them as outdated?
11:51:24  <planetmaker> yes
11:51:30  <planetmaker> but only the changed one
11:51:54  <planetmaker> and the translator will see old and new versions
11:52:10  <planetmaker> so s/he can decide whether a change needs translation (or e.g. is just a typo fix)
11:52:31  <V453000> right
11:54:25  <planetmaker> STR_c2B__units_of_cargo and STR_c2B__items_of_cargo seem to be the same?
11:54:36  <V453000> probably? :D
11:54:48  <planetmaker> I like the suggestion of related strings
11:54:52  <V453000> I dont know the intended difference and this looed ok
11:54:55  <planetmaker> helps to keep translation uniform
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12:01:59  <planetmaker> hm, what's the difference between a construction yard and a worker yard, V453000 ?
12:02:10  <V453000> 1X and 4X? :P
12:02:14  <V453000> one produces BDMT and one YETI
12:02:35  <planetmaker> ah. Yeti-breeding plant ;)
12:02:49  <V453000> in CZ I translated worker yard as Pracovní Úřad which is the office you go to whne you are unemployed
12:03:07  <planetmaker> ok, that's a good idea
12:03:43  <planetmaker> I'll call it unemployment office for yetis
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12:05:44  <planetmaker> k... done. Now fixing the mistakes I made ;)
12:07:16  <planetmaker> one translation done. Sort of
12:09:37  <V453000> 99 correct =D
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12:16:12  <V453000> how do discover that devzone thing commited the translationss?
12:16:17  <V453000> will it say in the channel?
12:16:56  <planetmaker> currently it won't tell at all
12:17:23  <planetmaker> obviously the repository will be updated, thus if you pull, you'll get new stuff
12:18:01  <planetmaker> if we re-activate brot, it would tell
12:18:21  <planetmaker> besides a lot of other stuff it would tell :P
12:18:43  <V453000> XD I get the meaning of a lot
12:19:42  <planetmaker> I don't quite yet dare to suggest to you to activate also compilation so that translators can check ingame their translation :P
12:20:09  <planetmaker> but a successful compile would be announced. And would then happen when there was a commit by translators ;)
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12:52:56  <V453000> sooooooooooooo
12:52:57  <V453000> wat do now
12:57:55  <planetmaker> feed the yetis?
12:58:03  <planetmaker> or give them moaar work?
12:58:18  <V453000> probably make their stuf move
12:58:32  <planetmaker> sounds like a plan
12:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: that cloak is useless because you join channels before it's active. so everybody has your IP already
12:59:16  <planetmaker> :P
13:01:02  <V453000> does this make sense?
13:02:35  <planetmaker> lines 1-9 seem valid NML
13:02:52  <__ln__> also the url seems like a valid url
13:03:31  <V453000> and without the -> things, is that how I would call each of thesprites?
13:03:59  <planetmaker> yes, you can reference them that way, yes
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13:05:47  <V453000> this then?
13:06:28  <planetmaker> you also have a spriteset in 8bpp for those alternative sprites, yes?
13:06:44  <planetmaker> then the animation switch looks fine
13:06:45  <V453000> 8bpp has to have the animation too?
13:06:49  <planetmaker> of course
13:06:58  <V453000> k I will just fake it
13:06:59  <planetmaker> every sprite needs to be 8bpp 1x
13:07:02  <V453000> right
13:07:06  <V453000> I will just load the same image
13:07:08  <planetmaker> that's fair enough to fake it :)
13:07:09  <V453000> for now at least :>
13:07:25  <V453000> if oldschool stuff, then oldschool without animation :P
13:07:49  <V453000> do you think the second one in graphics{} I have there should work?
13:07:53  <V453000> or should I just do the switch?
13:08:29  <planetmaker> oh, the 2nd one will work just fine the graphics switch
13:08:38  <planetmaker> if you have nothing else which (also) influences the choice of graphics
13:08:52  <V453000> no, nothing else should :)
13:08:54  <V453000> for now :D
13:09:02  <planetmaker> you'll still need the callbacks to decide on animation frame, of course
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13:14:22  <LadyHawk> [18/7][13:59:02] <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: that cloak is useless because you join channels before it's active. so everybody has your IP already
13:14:23  <LadyHawk> i know
13:14:37  <LadyHawk> i've turned it back off, i dont mind people seeing my ip
13:15:06  <LadyHawk> it'll just tell you i'm an idle fool
13:15:07  <LadyHawk> :)
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13:15:35  <LadyHawk> aw wait it doesnt
13:15:55  <LadyHawk> ipv4, bubble burst :(
13:16:43  <LadyHawk> the only cloak i was really interested in is off limits..
13:17:56  <LadyHawk> it's a vhost i tend to set everywhere i can.. comes from back when i was the lucky owner of this
13:23:22  <V453000> hm
13:23:36  <V453000> so just anim_control: returning only ANIMATION_START; ?
13:23:44  <V453000> if I wanted it all the time?
13:25:15  <planetmaker> yes. And anim_next_frame: CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME
13:25:37  <planetmaker> though it might jump sometimes, when animation is re-triggered
13:25:51  <planetmaker> and you want one value for anim_speed, too :)
13:26:04  <planetmaker> thugh... fine when set as property
13:26:16  <planetmaker> though even
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14:10:09  <V453000> WTF it compiled :D
14:12:31  <andythenorth> :o
14:12:33  <andythenorth> fml
14:12:38  * andythenorth is shocked
14:12:45  <andythenorth> v wrote code :o
14:12:54  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
14:12:54  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <Pikka> is there really not an option to disable airport limits yet? outrageous
14:13:00  <andythenorth> come back pikka chu
14:13:42  <planetmaker> 'lo andy
14:14:19  <planetmaker> seems FIRS gets fierce competition ;)
14:14:53  <planetmaker> hm... "yet I think FIRS gets fierce competition" looks even better :P
14:14:55  <V453000> wat andy
14:15:25  <V453000> I just copypasted shit, frosch wrote the functional part :P
14:15:31  <V453000> 3 lines ._.
14:19:15  <andythenorth> hmm
14:19:22  <andythenorth> I will raise the game for FIRS
14:19:24  <V453000> 	anim_control: CB_RESULT_START_ANIMATION; 	anim_next_frame: CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME; 	anim_speed: 3;
14:19:32  <V453000> should this be enough to make it permanently animate?
14:19:32  * andythenorth thinks up ‘wtf’ for industries
14:19:41  <andythenorth> FIRS is too boring
14:19:55  <V453000>
14:20:07  <V453000> andythenorth: you still havent created the economy I suggested :P
14:21:31  <V453000> animation length is total length or frame rate?
14:25:40  <planetmaker> V453000, yes. though maybe it needs also triggers set in the property
14:26:20  <planetmaker> animation length in ticks is the length per frame. As is the value in real time
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14:42:25  <V453000> got it! :D
14:42:46  <V453000> 	animation_info: [ANIMATION_LOOPING, 128]; this was missing
14:44:10  <V453000> but I have it, one tile animates :>
14:44:19  <planetmaker> <3
14:45:40  <V453000> 12mb larger than the previous one
14:45:50  <V453000> -> 12x16
14:45:52  <V453000> is insane
14:46:11  <V453000> expected, BUT my sprites overlap as they arent <> but square
14:46:25  <V453000> so it is like 50% extra
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14:47:52  <V453000> now to make the other 15 tiles :-D
14:48:48  <planetmaker> :)
14:58:34  <V453000> 2! :D
14:58:37  <V453000> it is amazing already
14:58:45  <planetmaker> :)
14:58:52  <planetmaker> having fun, eh?
14:58:52  <V453000> no clue about cpu
14:59:03  <V453000> yeah :)
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15:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> something's weird today... first, zypper takes ages to start downloading files from the repo, and now it took me 3 tries to download a file from github
15:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> normal browsing is fine, though
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15:35:44  <Alberth> moin
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15:36:53  <LordAro> niom
15:41:30  <Eddi|zuHause> mjam
15:43:06  <planetmaker> 'lo
15:43:31  <Taede> hya
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16:11:45  <frosch123> V453000: don't use the "anim_speed" callback, only use the "animation_speed" property
16:11:57  <V453000> okayz :)
16:12:07  <frosch123> else you won't have fun with many industries
16:12:10  <V453000> purely coincidentally, that is what I did :)
16:12:14  <V453000> right
16:12:54  <frosch123> let's say every industry tile on the map with "anim_speed" costs you the performance of one train :p
16:14:07  <V453000> nice :D
16:15:38  <planetmaker> quaak :)
16:15:52  <frosch123> hai
16:17:42  <planetmaker> I found late last night that the patch for the slovak language was already committed. How did you prune it from my hard disk? You must have a trojan installed on my machine ;)
16:18:52  <Alberth> magic bit teleportations
16:19:17  <planetmaker> yeah. And given the size, the bit wise equivalence only allows that assumption
16:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i can has teleportation plz?
16:19:29  <planetmaker> sorry, not you, Eddi|zuHause ;)
16:19:56  <planetmaker> first some more cat pictures or so
16:20:16  <Alberth> \o/ cat piccies!
16:20:51  <Alberth> I wonder whether they are yeti resistent :p
16:20:58  <planetmaker> nope
16:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> pigcats?
16:21:38  <planetmaker> <-- probably something similar applies to yetis and cats
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16:31:42  <frosch123> planetmaker: i was upset that you claimed to know my bookmarks
16:31:46  <frosch123> so i tried to compensate
16:32:00  <planetmaker> ah. fair enough :P
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16:51:38  <Alberth> o/
16:53:37  <andythenorth> o/
16:56:31  <V453000> o/
16:56:34  <V453000> FIRS COMPETITOR
16:58:07  <andythenorth> is that the new name for YETI!
16:58:08  <andythenorth> ??
16:58:16  <V453000> top secret name
16:58:26  <V453000> FIRS is now a BAD FEATURE
16:58:29  <V453000> :>
16:58:31  <V453000>  /evil
16:59:20  <andythenorth> FIRS is CRAP
16:59:30  <V453000> iznt
16:59:34  <V453000> just could use some adjustments :P
17:00:34  <V453000> TO COMPETE BETTER
17:00:35  <V453000> :>
17:00:58  <andythenorth> LOSER
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17:03:25  <andythenorth> is it makefile re-writing day?
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17:12:12  <planetmaker> see you later
17:14:23  <Alberth> it's that, or parser input language rewriting :)
17:14:53  <V453000> yeti compiling time through the roof with just one animated industry :|
17:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause> partial compiles!
17:17:12  <Alberth> tasty things take time to cook :p
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17:24:48  <V453000> still not done :|
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17:31:06  <V453000> excellent
17:31:06  <V453000>
17:31:42  <juzza1> V453000: looks like your source pngs are not compressed? size halved when i resaved some with full compression. might help some weird fellas who want to download and compile for themselves :P
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17:32:09  <V453000> I have no idea how to make 3DS max compress them however
17:33:20  <frosch123> V453000: try encoding an .nfo from nml instead
17:33:30  <V453000> frosch123: how? :d
17:33:39  <frosch123> it's some parameter to nmlc
17:33:57  <frosch123> --nfo instead of --grf
17:34:57  <V453000> trying
17:34:59  <V453000> :D was fast
17:35:26  <V453000> what to do with that?
17:35:28  <frosch123> next try whether grfcodec manages to encode it
17:35:36  <frosch123> or whether we have to write something new :p
17:35:51  <V453000> uhmm
17:35:55  <V453000> never worked with grfcoded
17:35:58  <V453000> c
17:36:31  <frosch123> it's a crappy tool, but the only one we have :p
17:37:37  <frosch123> but if it also fails, we finally have a reason to write something better :)
17:37:55  <frosch123> which i always wanted, but never really did, because it is so boring
17:38:23  <Rubidium> but in what language?
17:38:26  <juzza1> in what format are images stored inside grf? if compressed, does grfcodec/nmlc compress the input images?
17:38:53  <frosch123> it's a lzw compressed bmp
17:38:58  <V453000> ok I downloaded grfcodec
17:38:59  <V453000> what do?
17:39:21  <frosch123> check the nfo what paths it uses for the image files
17:39:30  <andythenorth> partial compiles!
17:39:33  * andythenorth rejoins
17:39:44  <frosch123> then run grfcodec from the directory for which those paths would be valid
17:39:46  <V453000> gfx/
17:39:49  <V453000> right
17:40:00  <V453000> so I need to copy it to my YETI repository basically
17:40:14  <frosch123> no, you just need to start it from there
17:40:27  <V453000> uhmmm
17:40:31  <V453000> like cd to YETI
17:40:33  <V453000> and then there what
17:40:33  <frosch123> grfcodec resolved path relative to where you started it, instead of relative to the file which references them
17:40:35  <andythenorth> grfcodec isn’t crappy!
17:40:39  * andythenorth loves grfcodec
17:41:07  <frosch123> V453000: grfcodec --help :p
17:41:36  <V453000> that doesnt do anything until I would go to the folder where I have grfcodec
17:41:54  <frosch123> put the path in front of it
17:42:07  <frosch123> c:\blabla\grfcodec
17:42:08  <V453000> aha
17:42:10  <V453000> god :D
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17:42:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's only good since everyone knows the weaknesses and works around them :p
17:43:15  <andythenorth> it’s fast :P
17:43:25  <andythenorth> the only thing that scares me about it is maintenance
17:43:25  <andythenorth> :P
17:43:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: depending on the input data it can be very very slow
17:44:02  <frosch123> decode zbase with it, and try reencoding it
17:44:18  <frosch123> you can go to the pub while it does that
17:44:21  <andythenorth> it’s fast for [limited cases]
17:44:22  <andythenorth> :P
17:44:27  <V453000> managed to run help
17:44:33  <V453000> sooooooo :D
17:45:13  <frosch123> grfcodec -e -g 2 yeti.grf -c path/to/yeti.nfo
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17:45:49  <frosch123> maybe better put the "-c" more in front though
17:45:59  <frosch123> grfcodec -e -g 2 -c yeti.grf path/to/yeti.nfo
17:47:20  <andythenorth> -s :P
17:48:45  <V453000> no such file or directory ... in which directory do I need to make yeti.nfo if I want to just write YETI.nfo ? instead of path/to/
17:48:52  <V453000> I have it in both grfcodec and YETI folders
17:48:56  <V453000> throws error
17:49:04  <V453000> do I just have to write there the C:/meh
17:49:13  <frosch123> where is the nfo?
17:49:25  <V453000> in both grfcodec and YETI folders
17:49:43  <V453000> grfcodec folder is where I am starting the grfcodec, from the YETI folder
17:49:49  <frosch123> actually, it's just "path/to", without the "yeti.nfo"
17:50:02  <V453000> XD wat
17:50:14  <frosch123> so, is the .nfo in the folder you start grfcodec from?
17:50:24  <V453000> yes
17:50:26  <frosch123> then do "grfcodec -e -g 2 -c yeti.grf ."
17:50:47  <V453000> it is doing something :D
17:50:49  <V453000> loading sprites
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17:54:13  <Rubidium> and now it's purring along?
17:54:33  <V453000> it is just loading the 2096x2 sprites of death
17:55:09  <frosch123> you can consider the loading as a progress bar :)
17:55:14  <frosch123> loading happens in parallel to encoding
17:55:19  <V453000> :)
17:55:21  <frosch123> so, once it has loaded the last one, it is done
17:55:41  <frosch123> (well, not "parallel", but "interleaved")
17:56:48  <Eddi|zuHause> programs should use daisy-chaining more often :p
17:57:15  <frosch123> is that something dirty about comic fetishism?
17:57:58  <Eddi|zuHause> no. it's what's used in theoretical computer science to run potentially infinite algorithms combined
17:58:02  <Eddi|zuHause> do step 1 of process 1
17:58:11  <Eddi|zuHause> do step 1 of process 2
17:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> do step 2 of process 1
17:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause> do step 1 of process 3
17:58:21  <Eddi|zuHause> do step 2 of process 2
17:58:28  <Eddi|zuHause> do step 3 of process 1
17:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ...
17:58:43  <V453000> wawaaaat Renaming yeti.grf to yeti.bak
17:58:48  <V453000> Replacing yeti.grf with
17:58:50  <V453000> what do :D
17:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that means it's done
17:59:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and made a backup of your previous build
17:59:05  <frosch123> how big?
17:59:10  <V453000> well yeah that is also what it explicitly says but where do I find it
17:59:19  <frosch123> in the directory you are
17:59:28  <V453000> oh cute
17:59:30  <V453000> 280MB
17:59:40  <glx> for a grf ?
17:59:42  <V453000> 277 more like :P
17:59:46  <V453000> yes
17:59:48  <glx> crazy
17:59:52  <frosch123> so, what's the the extrapolation for the final one?
17:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> for one industry... .p
18:00:05  <frosch123> 15 times that size?
18:00:35  <V453000> well this is one industry, theoretical final one could be 16 times as much
18:00:39  <V453000> right now I have 5 animations
18:00:49  <V453000> that I woud like to get there
18:00:59  <frosch123> i fear you may break ottd :p
18:01:06  <V453000> one or two could probably be majorly reduced
18:01:08  <V453000> so lets say 3
18:01:12  <frosch123> if you fill the 2GB of spritecache, animation will be sluggish :p
18:01:28  <V453000> mhm
18:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but the 2GB are uncompressed?
18:01:39  <frosch123> it's runlength-encoded
18:01:49  <frosch123> so, not completely uncompressed
18:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that only helps if you have long stretches of same colour, like transparent
18:03:06  <frosch123> if that fails, then V may have to try differential animation
18:03:18  <frosch123> which reuse sprites by drawing them over each other
18:03:35  <Eddi|zuHause> aaaaanyway... "daisy chaining" makes sure that processes that actually do finish get finished in a finite time, even if some processes started earlier run indefinitely
18:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> basically like cantor's enumeration scheme for merging infinite sets
18:04:31  <Eddi|zuHause> countably-infinite
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18:06:53  * andythenorth cracks knuckles
18:06:58  <andythenorth> ~64 industries to rewrite
18:07:11  <frosch123> 64?
18:07:32  <andythenorth> 62
18:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> multiple non-overlapping economies
18:07:55  <Eddi|zuHause> overlapping is the wrong word
18:08:22  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Better FIRS? :D
18:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> what i mean is that of two economies, neither is a subset of the other
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18:09:53  <andythenorth> FLHerne: unchanged to the end user
18:10:08  * andythenorth just thought of an ugly shortcut though
18:10:49  <V453000> tried to load the grf in openttd, it works correctly,  the animation is amazing :D
18:10:50  <FLHerne> But if it's easier to develop, you can save time to slave away making more cool stuff :P
18:12:03  <andythenorth> if I stick in a pointless action 0 for every industry, then the numeric ids will resolve
18:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid it's already way beyond this chart :p
18:12:08  <andythenorth> which is the current problem
18:15:37  * andythenorth tries to figure out how many compiles in a week
18:16:02  <andythenorth> maybe about 30 across all newgrfs
18:16:10  <andythenorth> I don’t get to work on stuff much these days
18:16:18  <andythenorth> let’s call that 5/day
18:16:40  <andythenorth> yeah, I’m probably at the limit for winning
18:19:04  <andythenorth> I reckon re-writing 62 FIRS industries puts me on the wrong side
18:19:14  * andythenorth will cheat
18:22:30  <frosch123> do it the av9 way
18:22:35  <frosch123> two industries is enough
18:22:45  <frosch123> one to produce, one to processs
18:22:45  <V453000> so I guess I will just try to code 3 animations and see what comes out of it the nfo way? :D
18:23:33  <V453000> yeti way: all industries except one process :P
18:24:04  <frosch123> V453000: you may need some automated image processing which makes the sprites only contain differences to a base image
18:24:17  <V453000> yeah :|
18:24:29  <frosch123> i believe you can save a lot of spritecache that way, when sprites are mostly transparent
18:27:44  <V453000> well IF I had the sprites not overlap, I could save like 30% too
18:27:56  <V453000> but since it is one image and nml takes squares from it, it overlaps a lot
18:28:05  <V453000> which is certainly not optimal either
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18:34:58  <Wolf01> moin
18:35:36  <Rubidium> frosch123: detecting that and performing such "optimizations" might be something useful for your new GRF codec ;)
18:36:20  <frosch123> haha, it won't code the nfo for you?
18:36:32  <frosch123> s/?//
18:37:57  <frosch123> maybe it is just a plan by pm: make yeti require 3 tools for building, so v starts using a compile farm :p
18:39:49  <frosch123> anyway, yet again no reason to replace grfcodec
18:40:14  <Rubidium> but with the nfo you can deduce whether sections of (ground) sprites are overlapping and then cut them accordingly... or just always cut them to ground tile sizes
18:40:52  <Rubidium> and you might be able to deduce which sprites are to be drawn overlapping and remove duplication from the overlapping sprites
18:41:06  <frosch123> sounds more like something for nml
18:41:12  <frosch123> you do not need the sprite data for that
18:41:24  <andythenorth> V453000: do you have a mostly static background, and only small moving parts?
18:41:52  <V453000> rather like everything moving in this case
18:41:57  <andythenorth> hmm
18:42:25  <andythenorth> so you can’t render out static sprites and animated sprites?
18:42:42  <andythenorth> are they fully animated, or just moving position?
18:42:43  <frosch123> hmm, i think the sprites are mostly static
18:42:53  <frosch123> except the machinery factory maybe
18:43:00  * andythenorth wonders if we’re pushing the limits of sprite-based blitters
18:43:09  <frosch123> but, the rest i would claim < 10% moving pixels
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18:43:10  <andythenorth> V453000: how long do your renders actually take?
18:43:21  <V453000> well yeah, other than the machinery factory it is qutie fine
18:43:27  <V453000> quite*
18:43:40  <andythenorth> are the renders seconds or minutes?
18:43:41  <V453000> andythenorth: generally 2-15 minutes per frame
18:43:44  <andythenorth> :o
18:43:49  <andythenorth> you have high poliygon count?
18:43:55  <andythenorth> loads of radiosity?
18:44:05  <andythenorth> you’re rendering 10k frame size?
18:44:05  <V453000> 750 000 polygons in total for all 16 industries
18:44:26  <V453000> I use displacement maps a lot, that adds a lot of time
18:44:35  <andythenorth> is that a high poly count these days?
18:44:39  * andythenorth is 10 years behind in CGI
18:44:51  <V453000> idk, it mainly is for the whole scene for all industries in total
18:44:53  <Wolf01> lol, I just received the first "wikia newsletter" and my reaction was "how about no?" -> one click unsubscribe
18:44:53  <V453000> sooo meh
18:44:57  <andythenorth> bin most of your polys, use simple meshes, tun off lighting effects
18:45:03  <andythenorth> then convert ottd to 3D render
18:45:05  <V453000> e.g. the construction factory takes 3 minutes to render now
18:45:06  <andythenorth> simples
18:45:14  <V453000> lol
18:45:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean, if we do not have enough space to store the texture, then also add 3d data?
18:46:10  <andythenorth> the texture would be highly compressed
18:46:18  <V453000> frosch123: 128 rendered frames is a bigger problem than animated 3D model probably
18:46:26  <andythenorth> also can’t we just dump all that onto OpenGL and have the graphics card do it?
18:46:33  <andythenorth> or whatever the modern Open GL is?
18:46:52  <frosch123> i rather rewrite grfcodec :p
18:47:10  <andythenorth> 3D OpenTTD
18:47:13  <andythenorth> it’s the logical conclusion
18:47:22  <andythenorth> also with pay-to-pay DLC
18:47:25  <andythenorth> and subways
18:47:31  <andythenorth> but not daylength
18:47:46  <frosch123> isn't daylength part of every pay-to-play?
18:47:57  <andythenorth> kinda
18:48:02  <andythenorth> pay money, game goes faster
18:48:16  <andythenorth> don’t pay money, watch slow progress bars
18:48:19  <andythenorth> so yeah
18:48:21  <frosch123> play 5 minutes on smart phone to put house, wait 1 day for it to complete
18:48:30  <frosch123> unless boosted with even more money :)
18:48:34  * andythenorth considers inverse pay-to-play
18:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that's kind of the opposite of what people want daylength for?
18:48:40  <andythenorth> the train nerds just want it slower right?
18:48:43  <andythenorth> so charge them
18:48:50  <glx> real time train speed
18:48:53  <andythenorth> “pay €1 to make this progress bar stop"
18:49:07  <frosch123> you need to pay the money equivalence of the train fuel?
18:49:13  <frosch123> solar trains are cheaper?
18:49:35  <glx> engine building time
18:49:56  <glx> and you can build only one at the time (per depot)
18:50:24  <glx> (RTS style :) )
18:51:53  <andythenorth> can I make a newgrf and sell it to the train nerds?
18:51:57  <andythenorth> just with silly dates
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18:52:12  <andythenorth> ship it with an openttd fork
18:52:16  <andythenorth> preinstalled
18:52:22  <andythenorth> ‘fork'
18:52:27  <Alberth> patch the game :p
18:52:41  <Alberth> remove the date :)
18:52:59  <Alberth> you don't need it anyway :)
18:53:25  <V453000> hm
18:53:40  <V453000> so a good thing would be to render 1 statick background, and 1 file with all moving objects?
18:54:38  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: sounds reasonable
18:55:23  <V453000> I guess I then mix them in the spritelayout right
18:55:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, as child sprites
18:56:32  <FLHerne> "andythenorth wonders if we’re pushing the limits of sprite-based blitters" Does any other game with OTTD's graphical complexity still use sprite blitters?
18:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> opensource? maybe. commercial? no
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18:57:44  <glx> commercial usually use paid engines
18:57:49  <glx> and framework
18:58:02  <FLHerne> What commercial things are still sprite-based? Some strange Japanese thing?
18:58:16  <FLHerne> Mobile apps, but those aren't so fiddly
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19:07:00  <V453000> well, for today I will just complete the 300MB newGRF
19:07:20  <V453000> and I will try to tind out how to render the things as I need them afterwards
19:10:04  <FLHerne> It's a strange world when addons are a couple of orders of magnitude bigger than the actual game o.O
19:13:12  <andythenorth> plenty of sprite based iOS apps
19:13:18  <andythenorth> dunno how they’re blitting though
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19:19:38  <frosch123> FLHerne: consider "factorio" :)
19:20:03  <frosch123> they decided against an established engine, since they (reasonably) doubted it would handle 100k of objects
19:20:41  <frosch123> it uses opengl, but the source sprites are all .png
19:22:50  <FLHerne> Compared to OTTD, it doesn't look like it does recolouring, or palette animation, or trying to sort sprites in isometric fake-3D?
19:23:27  <frosch123> haha, ofc no recolouring and palette animation :p
19:23:54  <frosch123> i guess it is pretty much isometric fake-3d though
19:24:12  <frosch123> it has smooth zooming (with opengl), but no rotation (well, because sprites)
19:24:45  <FLHerne> frosch123: The screenshots I've seen just look top-down, except individual sprites. Have they rejigged it at some point?
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19:25:13  <frosch123> huh? i said "no rotation"
19:25:21  <frosch123> so, always "top down"
19:26:48  <FLHerne> I mean pure top-down, without isometric fake-3d-ness
19:27:17  <FLHerne> Not that I've played it, I'm just looking through screenshots
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19:28:11  <frosch123> stuff slightly overlaps, but there are no bridges
19:28:40  <frosch123> it also uses horizontal/vertical as main directiions
19:28:44  <frosch123> instead of diagonal like ottd
19:28:52  <frosch123> so yes, it may be somewhat easier wrt. sorting
19:29:07  <frosch123> FLHerne: you should watch the trailer, it's awesome :)
19:29:24  <frosch123> correction to earlier: they added recoloring this week :p
19:31:48  <andythenorth> looks retro
19:32:01  <andythenorth> like an amiga game
19:32:37  <andythenorth> hmm, OS X version
19:32:43  * andythenorth has plans though
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20:01:35  <andythenorth> ho ho
20:01:40  <andythenorth> Iron Horse misses all trains :)
20:01:46  <andythenorth> partial compile not ftw
20:02:07  * andythenorth back to reading uncommented nfo :P
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20:05:52  <andythenorth> oopsie :o
20:05:56  <andythenorth> copy and paste fail
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20:10:54  * andythenorth tried to make a grf by repeating header block over and over again
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20:12:29  <andythenorth> partial compile is awesome when it works though
20:12:38  * andythenorth can test graphics changes much faster
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20:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause> need a new game to obsess about :/
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20:15:57  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Warzone2100 is ok, except for the graphics and the AI
20:16:10  <FLHerne> And 0ad is nice, but painfully slow
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20:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to play path of exile again, but it's painfully unplayable
20:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> boss appears, boss strikes, screen freezes 5 seconds to load the hit animation, and you're lying dead on the ground
20:19:19  <andythenorth> doom?
20:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned that i don't have any reflexes for this kind of game?
20:20:08  <andythenorth> nah doom is easy
20:20:16  <andythenorth> you’re reflexes can’t be much worse than mine
20:20:37  <andythenorth> anyway, /me biab
20:20:39  <andythenorth> or bed
20:20:39  <FLHerne> Assaultcube? You still need daft reflexes because of the obsessive loonies, but at least it doesn't lag
20:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i played some doom a few decades ago
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20:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i generally don't like that kind of genre
20:23:32  <FLHerne> Minecraft? Commercial, but still awesome :D
20:24:14  <FLHerne> SimSig is kind of fun, in a rail-enthusiast-obsessive kind of way
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20:36:34  <V453000> come on tell me I am awesome linux code madmen
20:40:03  <Alberth> :D
20:41:25  <Alberth> .BAT files aren't that expressive compared to real unix shell scripts, but it's a good step towards using a computer in the way it is intended
20:41:32  <Alberth> so YAY !
20:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> is the windows command line still in the dos 6 age?
20:44:04  <frosch123> we will get him there :)
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20:44:52  <frosch123> is there a difference between dos 6 and dos 3?
20:45:50  <Alberth> it's twice as big? or twice as slow?
20:46:05  <frosch123> i mean wrt. scripting support
20:46:11  <V453000> hm, how do I make the industry animate only when producing?
20:46:19  <V453000> animation_triggers: bitmask(ANIM_TRIGGER_INDTILE_DISTRIBUTES_CARGO);
20:46:22  <V453000> added this into properties
20:46:24  <V453000> wrong? :D
20:46:57  <frosch123> didn't you use the "next_frame" callback?
20:46:57  <V453000> it animates all the time apparently
20:47:00  <V453000> I did
20:47:12  <frosch123> then, make it a switch and check whether there is cargo waiting
20:47:16  <V453000> 	graphics { 	default: industry_3X_33_spritelayout; 	anim_control: CB_RESULT_START_ANIMATION; 	anim_next_frame: CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME; 	}
20:47:18  <frosch123> return the same frame when nothing is waiting
20:47:29  <V453000> aha
20:47:39  <V453000> and remove the animation_triggers then?
20:47:47  <frosch123> alternatively you can do complicated stuff to start/stop animation
20:47:55  <frosch123> which is better wrt. performance
20:48:03  <V453000> mhf
20:48:17  <V453000> I just thought making it animate only when producing will save some performance
20:48:31  <frosch123> you could use ANIM_TRIGGER_INDTILE_RECEIVED_CARGO to start the animation
20:48:51  <frosch123> and anim_next_frame to stop it
20:48:58  <frosch123> yeah, i guess that would be best
20:49:46  <frosch123> V453000: if you want to save performance, then you need to stop it, returning the same frame does not work then :)
20:49:56  <V453000> right
20:49:58  <V453000> soo
20:50:06  <V453000> how do I apply the trigger to a switch?
20:50:58  <frosch123> set the animation trigger property to bitmask(blabla_RECEIVED_CARGO, blabla_INDUSTRY_LOOP)
20:51:14  <frosch123> link the "anim_control" to a switch
20:51:29  <frosch123> which checks "extra_callback_info2"
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20:52:05  <V453000> isnt distributes_cargo better for the overtime production
20:52:28  <V453000> guess that would require that the player is picking up the cargo which isnt guaranteed
20:52:41  <frosch123> then make it return "start"/"stop" animation and "nothing" as default case
20:52:52  <frosch123> V453000: i thought: start when cargo arrives, stop when cargo is empty
20:52:59  <frosch123> no idea what you want with "distribute"
20:53:15  <V453000> k your approach makes sense :P
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20:54:33  <frosch123> night
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20:59:47  <V453000> hm, the question is what does extra_callback_info2 output there :d
21:00:06  <V453000> aka what to put to "XX" in XX: CB_RESULT...
21:00:19  <V453000> to make the switch react to result XX
21:09:27  <Alberth> in callback_flags  of industry tiles?
21:09:36  <Alberth> it says not to use those
21:09:47  <V453000> frosch sed :D
21:10:22  <V453000> but this is from the anim_control callback
21:10:29  <V453000> checking for extra_info2
21:10:47  <V453000> like, when current_date gives e.g. 1920, I dont know what extra_info2 gives
21:11:07  <Alberth> ah, right. I see that box :)
21:11:14  <Alberth> now trying to decode it :)
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21:12:59  <Alberth>  extra_callback_info2 contains the reason to trigger the animation, see the table below  <-- and pointing to at the bottom
21:13:13  <V453000> well yeah
21:13:14  <V453000> but
21:13:16  <V453000> :d
21:13:58  <V453000> aha
21:14:29  <Alberth> yes
21:14:44  <V453000> hm stop if cargo is empty
21:14:58  <Alberth> and probably more frame numbers, as you can also return a frame number
21:16:22  <V453000> what do you mean?
21:16:25  <Alberth> CB_RESULT_START_ANIMATION does "respectively start the animation in its current frame" it seems, so I think you must return 0 for the first frame
21:17:09  <Alberth> "Return the animation frame to show, or CB_RESULT_XXX  ..."   <-- is says you can also return a frame number
21:17:16  <Alberth> *It
21:18:35  <Alberth> so I am guessing return 0, and with anim_next_frame the next frame   CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME or CB_RESULT_STOP_ANIMATION
21:18:54  <Alberth> with a few random bits if you want it randomized
21:22:18  <Alberth> gn
21:22:23  <V453000> gn
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22:40:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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