Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:22 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C34BD.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 00:03:05 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:08:59 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:10:27 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 00:27:31 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:27:37 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 00:50:52 *** SHOTbyGUN [shotbygun@213-186-253-83.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 00:53:45 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz 01:33:41 <MTsPony> mhh this is odd, im saving a scenario as a heightmap, then i reload it into openttd and it deviates slightly 01:33:57 <MTsPony> i used the same size 01:36:21 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:37:43 <MTsPony> actually nvm, i know whats going on 01:41:57 <SHOTbyGUN> what are the options to reduce amount of passengers generated ? Googling only reveals stuff about "patching", so no simple mod for adjusting it ? 01:43:17 <MTsPony> use townsets with small buildings? :D 01:44:38 <SHOTbyGUN> there is lot of simple, half this quadruple that, but not for passengers :( 01:46:44 <MTsPony> why would you want that? you can always use the grf to reduce passenger payment 01:46:55 <MTsPony> if you think that its too profitable 01:47:56 <SHOTbyGUN> yeah I already have half profit from passengers, but still needing 40 busses for city feels dumb 01:48:20 <MTsPony> why? seems realistic? 01:48:40 <SHOTbyGUN> it does not feel realistic to me :F 01:48:58 <MTsPony> use a grf set with busses that have highest capacity? 01:51:26 <SHOTbyGUN> MTsPony http://i.imgur.com/0hVbYvG.png 01:52:10 <SHOTbyGUN> even if I had bigger busses, I would need 6+ passenger ships to make outside connection 01:54:24 <MTsPony> i know the right solution for ya, run a build with daylength patch 01:54:41 <MTsPony> slow down time/passenger production, and same vehicle speed. 01:54:51 <SHOTbyGUN> oh, nice :o 01:55:05 <MTsPony> reddit has a build for that you can use :) or play on our servers instead :p 01:55:12 <MTsPony> afk 01:55:19 <SHOTbyGUN> I am just testing out Server #2 01:55:57 <SHOTbyGUN> no BigGUI in reddit client :( 01:56:13 <MTsPony> is that a grf? 01:57:52 <SHOTbyGUN> ya 01:58:04 <MTsPony> openttd can use static grfs too, read up on how to use it. not all grfs work as static though. 01:58:40 <SHOTbyGUN> oh :o 01:59:28 <MTsPony> so you could potentially load your own grfs even when connecting to multiplayer server, but again its usually limited to grwphic replacement grfs, so youd have to try it out 02:00:17 <SHOTbyGUN> k, thx, nowhere is said what reddit client is... is it basically just collection of patches and grf:s ? 02:01:41 <MTsPony> its a patched game (openttd.exe) 02:01:52 <MTsPony> grfs are not related to it though 02:11:23 <Supercheese> Is there some further information on what sort of patches have been applied to the Reddit client, other than the raw .diff included in the bundle? 02:15:47 <SHOTbyGUN> I tried to find out, but I think they dont want us to know :O 02:16:00 <MTsPony> www.reddit.com/r/openttd/wiki/server5 02:16:09 <MTsPony> currently its only stated there xD 02:16:25 <Supercheese> Aah, patches active, there it is 02:16:46 <SHOTbyGUN> damn, I was true fool when I tried to look under the reddit client section "duh!" 02:16:53 <MTsPony> yeah :/ 02:17:24 <MTsPony> that stuff actually belongs on the page where the client can be downloaded. ill plan a fix when im not too busy :p 02:17:34 <SHOTbyGUN> that'd be great 02:19:15 <MTsPony> done 02:19:21 <MTsPony> on the bottom 02:20:32 <Supercheese> Neat, Server 2 uses one of my grfs :) 02:26:24 *** EyeMWing [~Wing@c-68-33-226-154.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 02:26:32 <SHOTbyGUN> why Grocer's store shop doesnt want my alcohol :( ? 02:30:50 <Supercheese> perhaps you spelled Whisky/Whiskey with or without an e to their disliking 02:30:56 <Supercheese> ;) 02:36:44 <SHOTbyGUN> oh it was bug in station, remade it and now it accepts it :) 02:36:56 <SHOTbyGUN> first time I saw a bug :) 02:50:01 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck 02:55:12 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz 03:29:26 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:07:23 *** MTsPony [~MTsPony@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:08:55 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 04:28:07 <SHOTbyGUN> is Enonomy: inflation just visual aspect, does it really affect gameplay? 04:29:44 <Supercheese> it definitely does 04:29:54 <Supercheese> Inflation will make it harder and harder to be profitable as the years tick by 04:31:05 <SHOTbyGUN> if inflation increases all prices and also income, is it just +-0 ? 04:32:05 *** MTs-iPad [~MTs-iPad@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 04:43:58 *** MTs-iPad [~MTs-iPad@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:03 *** MTs-iPad [~MTs-iPad@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD413D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 04:56:09 <SHOTbyGUN> by default airport costs 50 000 but maitenance is 400 000 ... ? 04:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66EDE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 04:56:56 <SHOTbyGUN> I suppose I have to increase airport building cost to 1 000 000 somehow, dunno how 05:01:48 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04:10 *** sla_ro|laptop [~sla.ro@89.121.131.100] has joined #openttd 05:05:30 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:07:41 <SHOTbyGUN> or rather I'd like large airport to to be 400 000 initially and 400 000 annually 05:08:10 <Supercheese> Inflation makes it such that costs rise faster than profits 05:08:14 <Supercheese> it says so in the helptext 05:13:08 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13:33 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:18:30 <SHOTbyGUN> oh thx 05:24:16 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâŠ] 05:27:04 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 05:35:51 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has joined #openttd 05:41:03 <SHOTbyGUN> <MTsPony> thx this day time reduction works wonders :) ... finally it is reasonable to get passengers from another cities, when there is not enough passengers in the vincinity of the airport :P 05:46:16 <Supercheese> Daylength is one of those highly desirable, easily implemented but with a few problems, very tough to implement without any problems 05:46:25 <Supercheese> desirable features* 05:48:42 <SHOTbyGUN> Daylength decreases income too right :o ? 05:49:06 <Supercheese> That depends, there are different implementations of daylength 05:49:18 <SHOTbyGUN> oh :F 05:49:27 <SHOTbyGUN> I am using the reddit client 05:49:31 <Supercheese> generally, I think it will increase income, because now your vehicles can make more trips in the same date-interval 05:49:38 <Supercheese> since the dates progress more slowly 05:49:52 <Supercheese> but it gets rather complicated 05:49:59 <SHOTbyGUN> yeah, making vehicle maitenance (less costly) 05:50:17 <SHOTbyGUN> seems like they never need to go to depot haha 05:50:28 <Supercheese> does Reddit play with breakdowns on? :\ 05:50:36 * Supercheese cannot stand breakdowns 05:50:57 <SHOTbyGUN> oh, well if it is not on, that'd explain why no depot :F 05:51:25 <Supercheese> Indeed 05:51:43 <SHOTbyGUN> oh finally a breakdown on aircraft 05:52:14 <SHOTbyGUN> servicing interval 100 days ... times 5 Day length XD 05:53:09 <SHOTbyGUN> I am trying to make good configuration to make challenging game :P and I think I am getting there 05:53:34 <SHOTbyGUN> reddit servers didint have cargo distribution on so I dont want to play there :( 05:55:10 * Supercheese doesn't use cargodist 05:55:25 <Supercheese> might try out Reddit then 05:59:44 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has joined #openttd 06:01:17 <Supercheese> Anyone know what the ISO langcode for Latin is? Maybe la_LA? 06:02:26 <SHOTbyGUN> dunno, other than ISO-8859-1 06:03:18 <SHOTbyGUN> but I think internet agrees that its UTF-8 or die 06:03:46 <Supercheese> err 06:03:49 <Supercheese> I meant Latin language 06:03:52 <Supercheese> Lingua Latina 06:04:04 <Supercheese> like en_US for US English 06:04:37 <SHOTbyGUN> oh D 06:04:48 <SHOTbyGUN> no idea 06:05:11 <Supercheese> oh hmm 06:06:40 <Supercheese> I guess it needn't have a second -part 06:06:42 <SHOTbyGUN> im sure you can just google em 06:06:43 <Supercheese> so just la 06:08:15 <Supercheese> although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion 06:12:07 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâŠ] 06:30:53 *** sla_ro|laptop [~sla.ro@89.121.131.100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:47 <NGC3982> Morning. 06:38:05 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 06:41:41 <SHOTbyGUN> Day Length Factor worked well to reduce passenger spawning, but it also slowed my economy down :( looks like there is no production factor :( 06:42:33 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0836D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 06:43:49 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:c45d:5b79:1a5b:918d] has joined #openttd 07:04:29 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d86be5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:06:37 <SHOTbyGUN> reducing passenger spawning is impossible :'( 07:07:22 <SHOTbyGUN> someone plz fix 07:07:45 <planetmaker> use a NewGRF with less passengers / inhabitants per house 07:07:48 <Supercheese> There's a NewGRF for That⢠07:07:51 <Supercheese> dangit ninjaed 07:07:53 <planetmaker> thus: your problem is already fixed 07:07:59 <planetmaker> :) Moin Supercheese 07:08:01 <SHOTbyGUN> I have googled 3 days now 07:08:04 <SHOTbyGUN> link please? 07:08:11 <Supercheese> planetmaker: you ninja, you :P 07:08:21 <planetmaker> breakfast-ninja ;) 07:09:58 <planetmaker> maybe early houses. ttrs is rather the anti-thesis of that 07:11:46 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has joined #openttd 07:12:13 <SHOTbyGUN> that mod only reduces passenger generation if year is less than 1929 07:12:32 <Supercheese> there are others, or at least should be 07:13:16 <Supercheese> TaI by Pikka should have much lower pax 07:13:21 <Supercheese> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=42562#p776414 07:13:35 <planetmaker> it has an ugly influence on town growth ;) 07:13:40 <Supercheese> well, yes 07:14:29 <Supercheese> I find the enormous amounts of pax merely a challenge to be embraced rather than avoided 07:14:47 <Supercheese> in TTRS, I mean 07:22:04 <SHOTbyGUN> Supercheese what is TTRS ? 07:22:14 <Supercheese> Total Town Replacement Set 07:22:21 <Supercheese> popular Town newgrf 07:23:30 <SHOTbyGUN> oh, gotta test that out 07:23:45 <SHOTbyGUN> if it helps out with my problem =) 07:23:53 <Supercheese> hahaha no 07:23:59 <Supercheese> it will overload you with more passengers 07:24:05 <V453000> XD 07:24:32 <SHOTbyGUN> oh :F 07:25:08 <SHOTbyGUN> so if I have 1000 population city with 1200 passengers on the stations, and 40+ busses trying to keep the stations not glogging 07:25:18 <SHOTbyGUN> all roads are filled with busses 07:25:30 <Supercheese> solution: find a more efficient transport method 07:25:32 <SHOTbyGUN> you telling me this is the way to get more passengers :O ? 07:25:33 <Supercheese> trams, trains 07:25:39 <Supercheese> better buses 07:25:43 <V453000> just provide better service :) 07:25:47 <Supercheese> ^ that 07:25:48 <andythenorth> really? 07:25:58 <andythenorth> afaict over-supply of pax isnât solvable 07:25:58 <V453000> http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/06/13/advanced-building-revue-05-sbahns-and-city-networks/ 07:26:18 <andythenorth> so many people assume this is some kind of designed in gameplay challenge :) 07:26:23 <andythenorth> when itâs totally accidental 07:26:24 <Supercheese> Buses, much like in real life oddly enough, are not suitable for enormous amounts of passengers 07:26:41 <andythenorth> bulldoze canals into town 07:26:42 <andythenorth> use ships 07:26:43 <Supercheese> andythenorth: though it may be an accident it is nonetheless a nice challenge 07:26:55 <andythenorth> ships have infinite capacity, subject to your CPU 07:26:56 <Supercheese> Yep ships are the ultimate solution, infinite capacity 07:27:13 <andythenorth> Venice Everywhere 07:27:25 <SHOTbyGUN> yeah, but I was thinking about fixing the game, not exploiting it 07:27:37 <SHOTbyGUN> lower pax generation 4x or 8x and I am very happy 07:27:42 <Supercheese> Eh, potato/potato 07:28:04 <SHOTbyGUN> currently you just make city -> train -> city = 1 million a year 07:28:08 <SHOTbyGUN> game win 07:28:17 <andythenorth> try TaI 07:28:28 <Supercheese> was suggested 07:28:36 <SHOTbyGUN> yeah I am going to do that now 07:28:45 <andythenorth> all the other house grfs build huge buildings as the city grows 07:28:51 <andythenorth> with high pax generation 07:28:56 <V453000> which is why money doesnt matter at all SHOTbyGUN 07:29:00 <V453000> it is just a number 07:29:34 <andythenorth> there is a group of players who aim for city growth, rather than pax transport 07:29:48 <V453000> the game complexity is in creating interesting train networks, you can get a lot of money in your first game if you fast forward, win 07:29:52 <andythenorth> and some of the grfs head in the direction of huge populations, rather than 100% clearance 07:30:17 <V453000> people who grow towns without servicing them properly are just dumb 07:30:29 <V453000> but having high amount of pax doesnt mean growing is a bad thing 07:30:44 <V453000> you just need better trains / more intense network to keep the town serviced 07:30:51 <V453000> key idea stays 07:31:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth, pax supply directly correlates with inhabitants in area covered by station. Make a low population house set and you somewhat 'solve' that. If population count and passenger supply is considered a problem, that is 07:31:15 <V453000> train newGRFs have so different pax capacities that it is basically impossible to "fix" 07:31:34 <andythenorth> station walking :P 07:31:35 <andythenorth> win 07:31:39 <V453000> .. :) 07:32:25 <V453000> for example, latest YETI ideas are that you get more workers per delivered pax/mail to the worker yard -> more industry production 07:32:28 <andythenorth> IH metro gives you 400pax in a 1 tile train btw 07:32:40 <V453000> meaning that growing a town is completely sensible, but you have to care for it and take the products from it somewhere 07:32:41 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:32:41 <planetmaker> that's HUGE 07:32:50 <V453000> 400 per tile is just retarded 07:33:00 <V453000> even the highest capacity of slowest trains in NUTS is 240 per tile 07:33:13 <fonsinchen> Supercheese: la_RM (latin/roman empire) ;) 07:33:31 <V453000> DB set transrapid had 240 too I believe 07:33:46 <Supercheese> I just have it la_LA at the moment 07:33:46 <V453000> except it went 500 kmh with instant acceleration XD not broken. 07:33:54 <Supercheese> la_VA for Vatican? 07:34:06 * Supercheese does not know 07:34:21 <V453000> I think NUTS is kind of okay vs. normal town sets like japanese buildings, but e.g. UKRS SUFFERS due to low capacities 07:34:29 <andythenorth> V453000: 400 is for a reason :P 07:34:37 <fonsinchen> maybe. The _LA part doesn't make any sense as there is no such country as 'LA' (or maybe it's Los Angeles). 07:34:42 <Supercheese> yeah.... 07:34:43 <V453000> andythenorth: which is? :D 07:34:51 <Supercheese> la_US? 07:34:51 <fonsinchen> Anyway, there are ISO codes without second part 07:34:56 * Supercheese is American after all 07:35:12 <andythenorth> V453000: so you can fit 400 pax in a tile train of course 07:35:14 <Supercheese> I would just as soon keep it at la 07:35:24 <fonsinchen> The second part is only needed for languages that are slightly different in different regions where they're spoken 07:35:25 <Supercheese> but every other language in OTTD has both parts, so I was uncertain 07:35:43 <fonsinchen> Then we probably don't use ISO codes 07:35:45 <Supercheese> and there are different pronunciations around, but not so much spellings 07:35:57 <__ln__> fonsinchen: we don't? 07:36:17 <fonsinchen> Otherwise we shouldn't have a second part for things like, say, romanian 07:36:18 <V453000> XD 07:36:20 <Supercheese> the field in the .lang file is "##isocode en_US" 07:36:21 <V453000> just wtf andy 07:36:28 <V453000> but okay :D 07:36:34 <V453000> how fast are the trains pulling such wagons andythenorth ? 07:36:42 <andythenorth> 65mph, metro 07:36:53 <__ln__> the country part of the locale identifier usually (though not maybe in OTTD) affects things such as date formatting, which are more related to country than the language. 07:37:13 <V453000> well at least that 07:37:23 <V453000> but still, 400 ... :) 07:37:30 <fonsinchen> Yes, but if the language is only spoken in one country then that determines it already 07:37:38 <andythenorth> why are the canadian grfs on bananas? 07:37:44 <andythenorth> I thought they were being removed? 07:38:51 <V453000> I guess they just dont show in openttd due to max version? 07:39:07 <fonsinchen> I just remember the language stuff because at some point I tried to understand this: http://framework.zend.com/svn/framework/standard/trunk/library/Zend/Locale.php 07:39:26 <Supercheese> Technically I think only the Vatican still has Latin as an official language 07:39:39 <V453000> I do not believe anybody supports this cunt and is willing to remove things from bananas and break those newGRFs for players (again) 07:40:07 <Supercheese> despite numerous national mottos/text on currencies being in Latin 07:40:12 <fonsinchen> Mind that this is not complete, there are also codes with an "@<characterSet>" after them, for example for Japanese where they have the same language in different writings 07:40:47 <andythenorth> he should just upload blank grfs 07:40:55 <V453000> andythenorth: somebody probably didnt realize it is possible to download things manually :P 07:40:58 <andythenorth> currently all can stuff is still available to download 07:40:59 <V453000> haha 07:41:01 <V453000> would be cute 07:41:04 <Supercheese> Yeah the Canadian grfs have been subject to excessive amounts of drama 07:41:12 <andythenorth> would be sensible for him to blank them 07:41:55 <Supercheese> "sensible" 07:41:57 <V453000> he will come back with his full mouth of bullshit sooner or later anyway 07:43:04 <__ln__> even though i'm the one who introduced the isocode thing in to OTTD translations, i don't quite remember whether the country information is mandatory or not. 07:44:07 <Supercheese> Well, judging purely by precedent, it seems mandatory 07:44:30 <Supercheese> of course, "precedent be damned" is an option as well 07:45:17 <fonsinchen> I have to leave now, but I can try to dig out the standard document tonight. I think I've read it at some point. 07:48:34 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-61-33.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 07:51:32 <Eddi|zuHause> <Supercheese> although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion <-- the second part denotes country-specific localisation 07:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could have a difference between de_DE and de_CH 07:52:15 <Eddi|zuHause> even though it's technically the same language 07:52:44 <Supercheese> aye... so what then for Latin? 07:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ... which country has a significant amount of latin speakers? :p 07:53:29 <Supercheese> well, as I said, only the Vatican it would seem 07:53:42 <Supercheese> but only because their dearth of citizens 07:53:47 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 07:53:54 <Supercheese> so per capita the fluency is high ;) 07:54:10 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "the region subtag MAY be omitted, as when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag." 08:00:16 <Supercheese> Well then. 08:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so i guess "la" will do 08:15:38 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 08:19:29 <fjb> Moin. 08:21:43 <planetmaker> officially Vatican and Malta have latin as language 08:23:06 <planetmaker> or I read it wrongly and "Sovereign Military Order of Malta" is not identical to Malta itself 08:23:09 <planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin 08:23:10 *** FLHerne [~flh@212.183.128.111] has joined #openttd 08:23:55 <planetmaker> seems I did 08:24:06 <planetmaker> so Vatican is bigger. It probably has more than 3 citizens :D 08:24:13 <V453000> :d 08:33:11 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:47:37 <argoneus> I am still not exactly sure 08:47:50 <argoneus> does this game have anything from the original TTD? like reverse engineered code etc 08:47:56 <argoneus> or is it all brand new, just using similar graphics and same gameplay 08:49:02 <V453000> /same graphics and similar gameplay? :D 08:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the code was reverse engineered and then slowly replaced/improved over time 08:51:14 <argoneus> almost identical graphics and almost identical gameplay ;p 08:51:41 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: so basically the original devs looked how chris made the game, and then kinda rewrote that? 08:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat. the original was written in assembler, and this project got started as a complete reimplementation in c 08:52:28 <argoneus> and now it's C++ :D 08:52:31 <argoneus> or wait, it's not 08:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally 08:52:47 <argoneus> it still blows my mind 08:52:50 <argoneus> how he just sat down 08:52:55 <argoneus> and made two groundbreaking games in asm 08:53:01 <argoneus> and just carried on with his life 08:53:13 <argoneus> (unless I missed something other than ttd and rct) 08:53:43 <argoneus> I was happy to write a super simple calculator in asm, and it was 800 something lines 08:53:47 <argoneus> and he makes a whole damn game 08:54:02 <argoneus> and in an age when C was widely used already, too 08:54:09 <argoneus> it's just really mind boggling 08:56:49 <Eddi|zuHause> what is a "boggle" anyway? 08:57:05 <argoneus> dunno, I just use it as a phrase 08:57:24 <andythenorth> canât conceptualise a boggle 08:57:42 <V453000> subsitute it with fuck 08:58:16 <argoneus> english is a flexible language 08:58:22 <argoneus> you can express most things with a variation of fuck 08:59:08 <__ln__> argoneus: yes, this game is a result of reverse engineering TTD. 08:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like replace every instance of "smurf" with "fuck"? 08:59:18 <argoneus> that's impressive in its own way 09:01:22 *** FLHerne [~flh@212.183.128.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:06:57 <peter1138> 20 years ago writing games in assembly was fairly common. 09:07:18 <andythenorth> also spreadsheets 09:07:24 <andythenorth> and screensavers 09:07:31 <peter1138> Declining by the 90s, though. 09:10:12 <argoneus> I wonder why so little people play this game 09:10:17 <argoneus> I feel there's more modders and developers than players 09:10:46 <peter1138> Because it isn't an AAA FPS shooter on XBONE. 09:11:09 <argoneus> I mean 09:11:13 <argoneus> I understand games like dwarf fortress 09:11:15 <andythenorth> because it doesnât have dragons 09:11:17 <argoneus> the graphics are no graphics 09:11:25 <argoneus> and it's like the most complex game ever 09:11:31 <argoneus> but this game isn't hard to get into 09:11:34 <argoneus> nor does it look bad 09:12:17 <V453000> it doesnt tell people what to do 09:12:20 <V453000> simple reason 09:12:39 <argoneus> is there a wiki page like "your first game"? 09:12:40 <V453000> with that, majority does not discover the complexity of the game because they have no goal 09:12:46 <planetmaker> oh, many people can't handle a "no directions" game ;) 09:12:58 <argoneus> *cough* minecrap *cough* 09:13:08 <planetmaker> argoneus, not that I know, but you could create such page 09:13:10 * __ln__ just installed a preview of Windows NT 6.2 09:13:26 <argoneus> planetmaker: I could I guess 09:13:41 <argoneus> I'm playing with a friend right now who is super new to the game, and he's struggling with a lot of things 09:13:44 <argoneus> might focus on those things 09:13:56 <liq3> It's a really a game that's quite hard without spending a while reading the wiki. 09:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: isn't it already at 6.3? 09:14:10 <liq3> Especially signals. Those things are mysterious. 09:14:40 <argoneus> I might try making an introduction for totally new players wiki page kinda thing 09:14:42 <peter1138> Adding 4x zoom didn't help. New players complain that the graphics are blocky and crap. 09:14:46 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: apparently not 09:14:47 <argoneus> but I'm surprised no one did so yet 09:15:07 <argoneus> like 09:15:13 <argoneus> explaining signals in two paragraphs, and linking to the lengthy page 09:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: probably loads of people did 09:15:26 <andythenorth> add dragons 09:15:28 <andythenorth> problem solved 09:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there are video tutorials and stuff 09:15:46 <andythenorth> also we donât have any ânow do thisâ buttons 09:15:49 <argoneus> I for one hate video tutorials 09:15:53 <argoneus> they're always like 09:15:57 <andythenorth> some of the most popular tablet games arenât games 09:16:01 <argoneus> "so umm welcome to my.. umm.. openttd game" 09:16:06 <planetmaker> peter1138, the default graphics are 8bpp. Maybe we should switch default base set to zBase. But then it would need serious polishing before I'd advise so 09:16:06 <andythenorth> theyâre just walk-throughs with rendered iso sprites 09:16:09 <argoneus> "if you like this video, please, ummm.. like and subscribe" 09:16:09 <peter1138> A lot of people can only play Minecraft because they watched LP videos. 09:16:23 <peter1138> And they just copy what was done in the video;. 09:16:23 <argoneus> I also noticed there are no streams anywhere 09:16:26 <argoneus> I could stream this game 09:16:37 <peter1138> planetmaker, no because zBase is fecking ugly. 09:16:38 <__ln__> this WinNT 6.2 has a command prompt window that is resizeable, supports copy&paste, selecting easily with the mouse. 09:16:39 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: there is also a tutorial game script, which nobody who is new will actually find 09:16:46 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: tutorial game script? 09:16:51 <argoneus> what is that 09:17:04 <peter1138> (But lots of people think it's better just because it's higher resolution) 09:17:11 <argoneus> zbase makes this look like lego 09:17:23 <liq3> Sounds like we need a big "Tutorial" button on the main menu. 09:17:37 * andythenorth looks around for a fuck to give :) 09:17:39 <andythenorth> doesnât find any :) 09:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> just add this game script as default... 09:17:52 <planetmaker> liq3, yes, that might make sense indeed. 09:17:59 <andythenorth> ottd itâs mostly a meta-game 09:18:00 <argoneus> just pay pewdiepie to play this game 09:18:05 <argoneus> instant kid population appears 09:18:09 <andythenorth> mostly the game is developing the game 09:18:14 <andythenorth> not playing the game 09:18:51 <andythenorth> :) 09:19:21 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0836D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:21 <V453000> what the fuck did I just read 09:19:41 <argoneus> and then there's people like V453000 09:19:45 <andythenorth> yes 09:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> a random andythenorth splurt? 09:19:48 <planetmaker> V453000, we know what you read. 50% chance 'beer'. 50% chance 'fuck' :P 09:19:49 <andythenorth> thereâs always V453000 09:20:03 <V453000> . 09:20:21 <V453000> well the problem is that nobody is able to make a tutoria 09:20:22 <argoneus> I wish there was something like zbase 09:20:22 <V453000> l 09:20:25 <argoneus> but not looking like super shit 09:20:30 <V453000> since like 1% people actually knows how the game works 09:20:40 <V453000> there will be, it will just take time argoneus :) 09:20:55 <V453000> the amount of people making EZ/32bpp is increasing 09:21:00 <argoneus> zbase feels more like a proof of concept right now 09:21:07 <V453000> which it is yes 09:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> from 1 to 2? 09:21:17 <planetmaker> it took 1...2 years before 32bpp actually was taken up by the community since it became available in grf format 09:21:38 <argoneus> how did people make graphics before? 09:21:47 <argoneus> did they make a 32bit train and then reduce the color amount? 09:21:49 <argoneus> and resolution 09:21:56 <planetmaker> it will take another 1...2 years surely before it is established enough that one can see a general improvement in the way these sprites look 09:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that may have happened, but not a lot 09:22:09 <V453000> argoneus: paletted pixel art 09:22:25 <argoneus> oh, right, pixel art 09:22:27 * argoneus shivers 09:22:34 <planetmaker> it's easy and nice to do 09:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "pointilism" became a thing like 150 years ago 09:22:45 <planetmaker> you should try actually both ways 09:22:46 <V453000> it isnt easy and many people miss that point :P 09:22:57 <V453000> but you can fuck up less than with rendering 09:22:59 <argoneus> I can't even draw a stickman 09:23:02 <V453000> example, opengfx x zbase 09:23:29 <planetmaker> rendering just needs more preparation and work to get the same result, I think 09:23:31 <argoneus> just port the game to cryengine ;) 09:23:55 <Xaroth|Work> cryengine is overrated 09:23:58 <V453000> it saves time on repetitive tasks pm, it is just different :) work amount is comparable 09:24:17 <peter1138> zBase vehicles are too big, and their offsets are wrong very often. 09:24:19 <V453000> e.g. the landscape x roads x rails x everything thing 09:24:21 <planetmaker> argoneus, how many people do you think were born with a talent and ability to programme or create pixel art or rendered art? You won't know until you really tried. 09:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> rendering needs more setup time before you can actually see what you did 09:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and a totally different set of skills 09:24:43 <planetmaker> yeah 09:24:53 <V453000> mostly true yes 09:24:53 <Xaroth|Work> but, i must add 09:24:56 <Xaroth|Work> rotatable maps! 09:25:02 <planetmaker> that's probably the difference. with pixels you get immediate feedback. you don't with rendering 09:25:04 * peter1138 ponders making a 4x zoom version of the TTD baseset... 09:25:13 <peter1138> Manually editing each and every sprite. Sounds like fun. 09:25:17 <V453000> lol 09:25:24 <planetmaker> haha :) 09:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll expect your results in 2 years 09:25:50 <argoneus> planetmaker: I tried 3dsmax, wings 3d, blender, paper + pencil and watercolor, and never produced anything even remotely nonshit 09:25:57 <peter1138> At least your normal zoom would look nice :-) 09:26:11 <argoneus> I have no talent for art, I would have to practice 8 hours every day for years to produce something noncrap 09:26:20 <andythenorth> so did I 09:26:24 <andythenorth> still trying 09:26:32 <V453000> m2 09:26:34 <argoneus> I know talent is overrated, but most people that are good at art were not terrible as children at drawing 09:26:35 <peter1138> argoneus, what do you think artists do? 09:26:48 <V453000> I am terrible at drawing. 09:26:54 <argoneus> my paintings in class were always the worst, that includes others that never even tried drawing 09:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i've produced a handful of decent drawings 09:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> out of hundreds :) 09:27:40 <argoneus> I think of talent more as a headstart than something inherent no one can overcome 09:27:42 <planetmaker> argoneus, so thought I about myself. I still believe I made the best river sprites this game has ;) 09:28:20 <planetmaker> and sea shore 09:28:25 <argoneus> I dunno 09:28:36 <argoneus> when people are good at drawing, they can see the shapes they want to draw in their head, no? 09:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed that i am really terrible at reproducing things out of my head, but painting something i see in front of me is alright, within limits... 09:29:20 <argoneus> I just don't think 09:29:31 <argoneus> that someone who is literally terrible at drawing anything would be able to do pixel art or even 3d art properly 09:29:40 <liq3> I'm good at drawing things I can see, horrible at everything else. I barely draw too. 09:29:42 <argoneus> I know V453000 said he is bad at drawing, but he's probably not super terrible 09:29:51 <peter1138> Practice practice practice. 09:29:56 <V453000> I am super terrible 09:30:00 <V453000> because I never practiced it 09:30:01 <argoneus> and I don't even have time to practice anymore :< 09:30:15 <argoneus> unless I feel like drawing from 7pm to 11pm every day and then going to bed 09:30:16 <andythenorth> pixel art is just on a grid 09:30:18 <andythenorth> easy 09:30:27 <andythenorth> painting requires your hand to go where your eye wants 09:30:28 <V453000> and I am able to do both pixels and 3D models to some extent 09:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there are probably loads of pixel artists that are terrible at hand-drawing 09:30:33 <andythenorth> physical skill, limiting 09:30:41 <planetmaker> but then, there's only very few people who ever drew rivers and sea shores for this game and actually spend much time on it. Not much competition. mb's rivers are nice, but they could be more versatile as available NewGRF technique advanced 09:30:44 <V453000> pixel art is not drawing, pixel art is filling pixels in a table 09:30:49 <V453000> Especially with the palette 09:30:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have some river corners? o_O 09:31:02 <andythenorth> river grf :P 09:31:17 <argoneus> I'm amazed every time I see those videos 09:31:26 <peter1138> zBase rivers sucky, incidently. As so road junctions... 09:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: pixel art is a lot about placing "wrong" pixels in places that makes it look really nice when zoomed out 09:31:33 <argoneus> where people open photoshop, draw things, use all the photoshop tools to smoothen, curve, shadow, etc, and it works out perfectly 09:31:56 <argoneus> I wish I could do that, but I don't have the motivation to practice, since there's no guarantee I will actually get any nonshit 09:32:05 <planetmaker> I know, andythenorth :) But one can do more fancy corners. Something which actually currently is only found in ogfx+landscape :) 09:32:17 <V453000> that is true but that is beside the point Eddi :) 09:32:18 <planetmaker> I still want to port that to OpenGFX itself before 1.5 09:32:25 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes exactly - fancier... 09:32:39 <planetmaker> peter1138, zbase rivers and especially sea shores are the most ugly thing there, yes 09:32:58 <V453000> competition on the most ugly in zbase is big though 09:33:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, does fancy have a negative connotation? 09:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but that is usually why rendered stuff looks somewhat bad at this pixelated zoom level 09:33:25 <andythenorth> planetmaker: no :) 09:33:29 <andythenorth> not at all 09:33:36 <argoneus> by the way 09:33:39 <V453000> it isnt Eddi :) 32bpp allows sub-pixel transitions 09:33:42 <planetmaker> pew :) 09:33:47 <argoneus> why does yeti make my game lag a little when zoomed out? isn't it just a sprite like any other? 09:33:56 <V453000> it is 09:33:57 <argoneus> and I don't even think it's my computer 09:34:02 <V453000> but 128 times that amount XD 09:34:08 <V453000> try increasing sprite cache 09:34:14 <V453000> I have 256 09:34:32 <argoneus> where do you increase that? 09:34:37 <V453000> openttd.cfg 09:34:41 <argoneus> ah ok 09:34:43 <argoneus> I'll try 09:35:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, for all I know there's ttd rivers, your rivers, mb's, zeph's and some by leppka 09:35:11 <V453000> I think default is 64 or something 09:35:13 *** dxtr [6339b380@cubox.dxtr.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:22 <argoneus> it's probably that, then 09:35:29 <argoneus> my computer should have no reason to struggle with the game 09:35:40 <planetmaker> and all rivers are basically like canals except it's grass border instead of stone 09:35:41 <V453000> I heard from many people that it helps a ton to increase the sprite cache 09:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: just because the game is 20 years old doesn't mean it can't push modern computers to the limits 09:36:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the square corners⊠09:36:34 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: well, I have an overclocked 4670k and a GTX 770 09:36:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, exactly. And with a bit of programming trickery and more sprites one can do with less square corners 09:36:39 <argoneus> if the game pushed that to the limit 09:36:42 <argoneus> I would be surprised 09:36:51 <planetmaker> like in ogfx+landscape I have truely vertical and horizontal rivers, and that works 09:36:53 <V453000> 1 core matters 09:36:56 <argoneus> I have yet to see something push it to the limit 09:37:00 <argoneus> well 09:37:02 <V453000> go load pzg2013 and say again :) 09:37:05 <argoneus> 4.2 ghz :< 09:37:18 <planetmaker> and in pota-ghat with the 4x zoom one can make a bit more wiggle-waggle river borders, too, so that it looks more natural 09:37:20 <argoneus> and the latest i5 architecture 09:37:24 <planetmaker> similar for sea shores 09:37:32 <argoneus> V453000: what is pzg? 09:37:35 <V453000> pro zone game 09:37:40 <V453000> 5000 trains 09:37:41 <liq3> V453000: That game lags when I zoom out. o.o 09:37:42 <V453000> wrecks shit 09:37:44 <argoneus> is pro zone meant for people like you 09:37:45 <argoneus> ? 09:37:56 <planetmaker> it's managed by people like him ;) 09:37:58 <V453000> well that game is kind of my personal game but it is meant for everybody 09:38:15 <V453000> who knows some basics and wants to build 09:38:15 <argoneus> so unless I can make junctions with 8 lines from each side, I am not good enough 09:38:17 <planetmaker> it's a server for the die-hard crazy builders 09:38:33 <argoneus> :D 09:39:00 <V453000> with 0 games in 2014 ._. 09:39:07 <planetmaker> none of that stuff is built from scratch really. It all evolved in hours of play time 09:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> they all died hard 09:39:13 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:47 *** dxtr [~dxtr@cubox.dxtr.ninja] has joined #openttd 09:39:57 <argoneus> so let's say I am tempted to make some sort of tutorial 09:40:00 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 09:40:00 <liq3> There a way to show FPS ingame? 09:40:01 <argoneus> what kind of is needed? 09:40:15 <argoneus> I mean 09:40:21 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause said there were all sorts of things 09:40:25 <argoneus> tutorials, video tutorials, game scripts 09:40:32 <argoneus> I'm not sure where one could contribute in that sense 09:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a) filtering out things that actually give bad advice (like explaining block signals first, and then path signals), and b) putting it in places where newbies will actually come across them 09:42:05 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: why is a) bad? 09:42:11 <argoneus> block signals are much more easy to understand 09:42:16 <argoneus> because there's no black magic 09:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> a) they are not, b) path signals are both easier and more powerful, if you teach them the proper way of thinking 09:42:54 <peter1138> No they're not. 09:42:59 <SpComb> as long as you don't explain presignals 09:43:08 <SpComb> apart from "avoid using these for anything" 09:43:30 <argoneus> mmh 09:43:33 <peter1138> We only kept block signals for compatibility. 09:43:37 <argoneus> I'll try writing a short writeup on signals 09:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if you teach them thinking in block signals first, the path signals indeed seem like "black magic" 09:43:41 <argoneus> and consult with you here 09:43:49 <argoneus> is that okay? 09:43:54 <peter1138> First versions were path-signals only :D 09:43:54 <Eddi|zuHause> because they are a huge paradigm shift 09:44:05 <argoneus> but i dunno 09:44:08 <argoneus> block signals are like 09:44:16 <argoneus> here's a railroad, here's a signal, this signal works until next signal, it does this, okay 09:44:17 <SpComb> it's far preferrable to use path-signals only, as opposed to using block signals and then mixing in other things as well 09:44:19 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387A2A1.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 09:44:20 <argoneus> here's a path signal 09:44:30 <argoneus> it does SOMETHING and RESERVES the BEST path based on SOME penalties 09:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: see, that is the wrong way of thinking about signals. 09:44:54 <V453000> argoneus: see, even the developers do not understand waht is good for the game, everybody propagates path signals because they are noobs 09:45:04 <SpComb> block signals alone are simpler, but... block signals alone are fairly useless/limiting, you have to use some more complicated signals as well 09:45:20 <SpComb> and at that point block signals become more complicated than just pure path signals 09:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a path signal is "the train may wait here without blocking any other train" 09:45:43 <argoneus> maybe I am biased 09:45:44 <V453000> there is po point in creating proper tutorial if devs tell you otherwise 09:45:47 <argoneus> but yesterday I joined a server 09:45:56 <argoneus> and someone used these so called amazing easy to use path signals 09:46:01 <argoneus> http://puu.sh/bVMMe/1dd3a08680.png 09:46:11 <argoneus> just why 09:46:23 <V453000> 2way PBS is especially worst 09:46:25 <V453000> == is default 09:46:26 <V453000> perfect. 09:46:28 <peter1138> People do that with block signals too. 09:46:34 <V453000> least intuitive signal 09:46:36 <V453000> looks like 1way 09:46:37 <V453000> is 2way 09:46:46 <V453000> default for new players 09:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: there is nothing "wrong" with that setup 09:46:59 <peter1138> V453000 obviously hasn't got over the paradigm shift. 09:47:01 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: there isn't nothing wrong in the way it works 09:47:01 <Eddi|zuHause> except that most of the signals are useless 09:47:11 <argoneus> but it's wrong conceptually 09:47:26 <argoneus> there could be block signals everywhere except the one at the entrance to the station 09:47:31 <argoneus> and it would work the same 09:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: so? 09:47:47 <argoneus> arguably even there could be a block signal 09:48:04 <argoneus> I dunno 09:48:10 <argoneus> maybe I think too much programming wise 09:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a path signal is never worse than a block signal 09:48:16 <argoneus> doesn't the game calculate the best path every time you go past one 09:48:21 <argoneus> (path signal) 09:48:21 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: so there is nothing wrong with path signals everywhere 09:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no, it only calculates paths when there is an actual choice 09:48:48 <argoneus> so when there isn't, it behaves like a block signal? 09:49:03 <SpComb> I suppose the main point to path signas re a tutorial is that they're the only thing you'll ever need if you know how to use them properly. The main point of a tutorial.. 09:50:14 <argoneus> I just think 09:50:23 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the main point of a tutorial should be to give the least amount of information necessary to create useful stuff. and in that respect, path signals are faaaaaar superior 09:50:26 <argoneus> that block signals always work much more obviously 09:50:29 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:50:44 <argoneus> path signals do black magic when you put them before a junction 09:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: i disagree 09:50:53 <argoneus> they work, and they work great 09:51:02 <argoneus> but a new player will not see what happened there 09:51:09 <argoneus> and will just use path signals as an all powerful magic wand 09:51:10 <peter1138> There is no black magic. 09:51:13 <argoneus> to get his trains where he needs 09:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: if you teach them block signals, the immediate followup is "how do i get them to wait for a free platform?" 09:51:31 <argoneus> p-presignals 09:51:36 <SpComb> argoneus: block signals work great if they're the only kind of signal you would ever need. But they're not. Teaching block signals is short-sighted 09:51:48 <argoneus> I would teach all of them 09:51:51 <argoneus> explain pros and cons of all 09:51:52 <peter1138> Path signals are the only kind of signal you need. 09:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: if you teach them path signals, the answer to that is: "just remove the signals where it shouldn't be waiting" 09:51:58 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: actually, I had a situation where path signals were worse than block signals. 09:52:09 <liq3> The trains were stopping at the path signal for no reason. Block signals fixed it. 09:52:11 <argoneus> I didn't mean to preach that block signals > path signals 09:52:12 <argoneus> I meant to say 09:52:15 <argoneus> okay you have these two types 09:52:22 <argoneus> you use this for X, this for Y, sometimes these are better 09:52:27 <argoneus> usually you want to use these 09:52:29 <SpComb> argoneus: exactly, and once you explain pre-signals you've screwed up imo. Nobody should be using presignals 09:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: but "teach all of them" is what all the signal tutorials out there already do, and that just produces people saying "this is all waaaaay to complex and complicated for me." 09:52:54 <argoneus> well 09:52:57 <argoneus> from what I've read 09:53:02 <argoneus> most tutorials explain all the signals 09:53:06 <argoneus> and show use cases for all of them 09:53:08 <liq3> SpBot: Presignals are important in a lot of ways. 09:53:11 <argoneus> but don't tell you why you should ne using which 09:53:15 <peter1138> Most start with block signals, which is crap. 09:53:16 <argoneus> be* 09:53:35 <argoneus> there are use cases for pre signals 09:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: while all that is useful information for pro-gamers, this should NOT be in a tutorial 09:54:05 <argoneus> then how about 09:54:15 <argoneus> first I would explain path signals, what they do, how they are used properly 09:54:17 <argoneus> and then 09:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and then nothing 09:54:24 <argoneus> "the game also features an older type of signals, blabla" 09:54:26 <liq3> Actually, I kind of have to agree. For newbies, path signals are fine. 09:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> teach them other stuff 09:54:32 <liq3> Newbies don't need block signals. 09:54:37 <argoneus> I mean like 09:54:40 <argoneus> let them know 09:54:42 <argoneus> you are fine with these 09:54:45 <argoneus> but if you would like to know more 09:54:46 <argoneus> read this 09:54:47 <peter1138> Seasoned players don't need block signals either. 09:54:52 <liq3> peter1138: yes we do? 09:54:54 <peter1138> Some players think they do. 09:55:06 <argoneus> peter1138: how do you make priority lines with just path signals? 09:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> only crazy people like V think they need block signals 09:55:10 <peter1138> Becauase they like to do weird crap with crazyassed priority systems and the like. 09:55:21 <argoneus> it's not crazy assed 09:55:26 <peter1138> argoneus, I have never in my life needed to make a "priority line". 09:55:30 <argoneus> you don't want a huge full train stop for a small poop train leaving a station 09:55:37 <argoneus> esp. if it has low acceleration 09:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> make a timetable 09:55:55 <liq3> peter1138: you ever had a factory on a 256x256 map producing 10,000 goods a month? 09:55:59 <argoneus> so I should explain timetables to newbies instead of block signas? 09:56:01 <argoneus> signals* 09:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> no 09:56:17 <liq3> and all the trains from it sharing the same mainline as everything else.... 09:56:27 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d86be5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:56:27 <peter1138> One or another train needs to stop to let another train go. I couldn't care less which train actually goes first. 09:56:30 <argoneus> it's not difficult 09:56:34 <argoneus> the tutorial could have 2 parts 09:56:40 <argoneus> "getting started" and "advanced concepts" 09:57:00 <argoneus> first part would be all you need to make money and not have your trains crash 09:57:01 <peter1138> "Stupid concepts" < fixed that for you 09:57:14 <liq3> I should go remove all the priorities on my network to see how much it jams... 09:57:17 <argoneus> second part would be a showcase of more robust things you can do with the game 09:57:24 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d86be5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:57:24 <peter1138> If you have so many trains that they are stopping all the time to let others in... make more lines. 09:57:25 <argoneus> if you don't want to read it, don't 09:57:44 <liq3> peter1138: I already have LLL_RRR mainline. 4 would get even more excessive. 09:58:00 <argoneus> I'll just try writing something up later 09:58:03 <argoneus> and then ask you for opinions 09:58:09 <argoneus> it's actually good people here have different opinions 09:58:12 <argoneus> variety is always good 09:58:16 <argoneus> gives more insight 09:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: maybe you should have made different choices before you even got to the point of a "LLL_RRR" setup? 09:59:01 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: It was LL_RR before. I had to expand it to 3 to deal with cargo production. 09:59:14 <liq3> Admittedly, I set myself the limition of a signal mainline, so. 09:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever had the need for a LL_RR setup either 09:59:32 <liq3> single* 10:00:31 <peter1138> I always wondered why people chose L and R as directions... 10:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> my maps end up looking like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB) 10:00:35 <peter1138> Lost? Return? 10:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i thought "left track" and "right track" 10:00:52 <liq3> peter1138: it's just left/rigth. 10:01:16 <peter1138> left and right don't indicate the direction at all though. They indicate position. And you already know the position. 10:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, but "all left tracks go into the same direction" is all the relevant information at that point 10:02:56 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, see, that is a beautiful game. I am only missing the connectors to hook up another segment on the left-bottom edge :-) 10:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and it has not a single block signal on it :p 10:04:54 <argoneus> do all signals cost the same maintenance money? 10:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 10:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an urban myth that path signals need more CPU power, but no evidence was ever brought up to support that claim 10:06:38 <argoneus> I wonder 10:06:48 <argoneus> can I put my tutorial anywhere I want on the wiki? 10:06:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wiki 10:07:00 * argoneus has never added content to someone else's wiki 10:07:07 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, probably based on this misconception that path signals do path finding... 10:07:11 <argoneus> well 10:07:14 <argoneus> on the normal wiki 10:07:17 <argoneus> the power users always slapped m yshit 10:07:22 <argoneus> whenever I added anything 10:07:24 <argoneus> called me a vandal etc 10:07:41 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you are 10:07:46 <argoneus> :O 10:07:58 <argoneus> peter1138: they don't? 10:08:03 <dih> hello :-) 10:08:12 <argoneus> I mean, don't they reserve a path? 10:08:16 <argoneus> and don't they have to find a path first 10:08:20 <peter1138> No, trains themselves do that. 10:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no. trains reserve a path, not signals 10:08:39 <peter1138> And trains pathfind whenever they encounter a choice. 10:08:42 <argoneus> well 10:08:48 <peter1138> Path signals by themselves are not a choice. 10:09:08 <peter1138> Assuming you take the same route, there is an equal amount of pathfinding regardless of signal type. 10:09:59 <peter1138> It's possible that block signals actually do more work, because they explicitly have to check the status of every other signal in each block. 10:10:11 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be even _less_ pathfinding involved, because in a "block" a train may pathfind on every junction tile, but in a "path", all junction tiles until the next signal is processed at the same time 10:10:16 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, :-) 10:10:48 <blathijs> iii/win 20 10:10:50 <blathijs> w00ps 10:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i want to win 20 as well :/ 10:12:23 <peter1138> Would be interesting to see the evidence for this "slower" claim though. 10:12:31 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: This is my Factory stations http://i.imgur.com/CW3WW3D.png 10:12:58 <peter1138> There was the whole 'massive' overhead in marking the path itself... 10:13:59 <peter1138> Ok gotta close Eddi|zuHause's artwork, it's crapping my browser out :S 10:14:40 <peter1138> And liq3's picture is just ugly. 10:14:54 <peter1138> Ah well, I guess I play for aesthetics :p 10:15:15 <peter1138> Not giant multiplatform-but-only-3-tiles-long stations. 10:16:38 <liq3> peter1138: I have trees not drawing for clarity. :p 10:17:22 <liq3> Yeh. That's the difference peter1138. You play for aesthetics, some of us play for crazy throughput. :P 10:17:33 <liq3> Can't do high throughput without pre-signals. 10:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe you just haven't tried properly? 10:18:34 <liq3> I just disabled my priorities on my sideline hubs. The network is grinding to a halt, due to all the delays from joining trains on the mainline. :D 10:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a timetabled conflict-free network, then you don't need presignals 10:19:03 *** FLHerne [~flh@212.219.116.90] has joined #openttd 10:19:09 <liq3> I'm not timetabling 250 trains. o.o 10:20:24 <argoneus> you don't need presignals if you code your own priority system! 10:20:32 <liq3> haha 10:20:34 <argoneus> thus presignals are useless 10:20:47 <peter1138> Feel free. 10:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i would have ripped out presignals years ago... 10:22:10 <argoneus> but sometimes you really need them 10:22:23 <argoneus> if you have a huge station and one path signal 10:22:29 <argoneus> it might send the train into unoptimal paths 10:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> then remove these paths 10:22:41 <argoneus> since it only calculates so far ahead 10:23:16 <peter1138> No... 10:23:17 <planetmaker> block signals do even less look-ahead 10:23:33 <liq3> I did find a situation where path signals stopped the trains for no reason. 10:23:37 <argoneus> but you can place more presignals 10:23:39 <peter1138> Trains always plan the whole route. 10:23:39 <argoneus> you can place combo signals 10:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: "no reason" != "i didn't understand the reason" 10:24:05 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: Block signals fixed it. 10:24:25 <liq3> So it's a path signal specific issue. :p 10:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: i'm sure avoiding black cats also fixed issues 10:24:56 <argoneus> didnt V453000 point out some scenarios where path signals did more bad than good a while ago? 10:25:00 <argoneus> or maybe it was someone else 10:25:29 *** FLHerne [~flh@212.219.116.90] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 10:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: what you mean is not a "fix", but a "workaround" 10:26:05 *** Jinassi [~Jinassi@0001ec72.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:26:29 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause; well yes. 10:26:38 <Jinassi> good afternoon, Planetmaker, any news about the desync logs from last week? 10:26:41 <peter1138> My car didn't start, so I didn't bother finding out what, I just replaced it. 10:26:51 <peter1138> (Turns out it was out of fuel, crazy black magic huh?) 10:27:27 <argoneus> I just don't see why peter1138 is so set on this 10:27:38 <argoneus> is it bad to admit that pre signals have their use? 10:27:50 <argoneus> and that path signals aren't fine for EVERYTHING but only like 90% of use cases? 10:27:53 <peter1138> 11:21 < Eddi|zuHause> i would have ripped out presignals years ago... 10:27:55 <argoneus> or less 10:27:58 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, hell yes, and block signals :D 10:28:08 <peter1138> Like the original path signals patch. That was awesome. 10:28:24 <argoneus> isn't there a reason they were re-added? :< 10:28:51 <peter1138> They weren't readded. They were just not removed, so that old games would be compatible still. 10:28:53 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: yes, 0.1% of people crying "... but my extremely specialized setup..." 10:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: so it's not 90% but more like 99.9%, and those 0.1% are actually shortcomings in some other features 10:29:43 <liq3> I think I see what the issue is. 10:29:48 <liq3> Just checked my save. 10:30:03 <liq3> Something to do with trains leaving a station with a bypass. 10:30:13 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 10:30:25 <liq3> They'll wait for the train to leave the platform instead of using the bypass (which leads to more platforms for the same station). 10:30:55 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: then your "occupied platform" penalty isn't large enough for the bypass 10:30:58 <Jinassi> do you have non-stop orders? 10:31:01 <liq3> Yes. 10:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: that's an almost trivial fix 10:31:28 <liq3> If the station is full and no trains are leaving, they use the bypass no problem. 10:31:36 <peter1138> Do you have tons of signals on the bypass? 10:31:41 <liq3> well, first 5 platforms are full. 10:31:47 <liq3> peter1138: yes. 10:31:53 <argoneus> screenshot 10:31:56 <peter1138> Well there you go. 10:32:07 <peter1138> That increases the penalty of the bypass 10:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: so you mean the platform is actually free, just no signal behind it? 10:32:35 <liq3> ...I'll post the screenshot. 10:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: that's actually a shortcoming of the pathfinder, it won't add any penalties for things happening behind the platform 10:33:38 <liq3> http://i.imgur.com/QOF0Vsj.png 10:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you don't have a signal directly behind the platform, things appear to "break" 10:33:59 <liq3> Problem signal is the bottom right path signal. 10:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the "problem" is the time between leaving the platform, and leaving the tile behind the platform which has no signal on it 10:35:05 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: yes. 10:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> just put signals there, and everything will be fine 10:35:19 <liq3> The train that reaches the path signal waits for the train to leave, instead of using the bypass. 10:35:24 <liq3> where? 10:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> immediately behind the platform 10:35:42 <liq3> they're 1 tile behind it... 10:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they must be 0 tiles behind it 10:36:07 <liq3> let's find out. ;p 10:36:22 <peter1138> Weird seeing green signals everywhere... 10:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember trying to fix this shortcoming, but i didn't get anywhere 10:37:12 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: nope still happens. 10:37:15 <liq3> Less frequently though. 10:38:02 <liq3> Pre-signals don't have the problem. :p 10:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: yes, because there is a signal _before_ the platform which adds the pathfinder penalty, not _behind_ 10:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> which is, again, a workaround. not a fix 10:39:01 <liq3> actually 10:39:17 <liq3> it's because the combo/exit signals are red, so they immediately choose the only green signal, I'm pretty sure 10:39:31 <liq3> though admittedly that's probably implemented with penalties. 10:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 10:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "lastred" penalty 10:40:17 <liq3> does OpenTTD have a way to show FPS? 10:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no 10:40:35 <liq3> ...really? 10:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a hugely relevant figure for... anything 10:41:08 <peter1138> It's fixed at 33 fps. 10:41:08 <argoneus> just make a fps counter with path signals 10:41:34 <liq3> peter1138: It drops below that in same games. Want to know what it's dropping to. 10:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like you die from low fps 10:41:40 <peter1138> Seconds are extended if necessary. 10:41:48 <liq3> I'm also guessing that this game doesn't use GPU acceleration? 10:42:04 <argoneus> I think SDL does 10:42:10 <liq3> SDL blitting doesn't. 10:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> 2D acceleration 10:42:16 <liq3> iirc. 10:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the blitting doesn't, but pushing the framebuffer onto the screen does 10:42:43 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't mean it's using the GPU. :p 10:43:07 <liq3> I noticed because when I zoom out on PZG2013, it lags, but GPU is still only 25%. 10:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: ever tried to use the game on a machine that _actually_ doesn't have 2D acceleration and draws the screen pixel by pixel? 10:43:16 <liq3> doesn't lag when zoomed in. 10:43:29 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: I've made programs that do that. I can imagine the fractional FPS. 10:43:40 <peter1138> It slowed down because there is FUCK LOADS of stuff to draw. 10:43:52 <liq3> peter1138: Odd it only used 25% of my GPU to draw all that. 10:44:02 <peter1138> It used your CPU to draw it. 10:44:09 <liq3> And there's the problem. :P 10:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: the framebuffer stays the same size, so GPU usage does not depend on zoom level 10:44:22 <peter1138> Nope, it's a 2D game. 10:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> only on window size 10:44:56 <liq3> I'm pretty sure 2d games benefit from GPU acceleration too. :/ 10:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 10:45:06 <peter1138> There have been attempts at using 3D accelerated blitter, however it works out slower due to the sheer amount of stuff to be drawn. 10:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have only 2^n sized sprites 10:45:26 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, pretty sure that limitation is long gone :) 10:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: people tried making opengl blitters before, they usually turned out slower than what we already have 10:46:13 <liq3> "blitters" >.> 10:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's what it's called... i didn't invent the word 10:47:08 <liq3> ...I just looked up the word Blitter on wiki... ugh 10:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: basically you throw a large number of sprites on it, and it tries to figure out what's drawn in front of what 10:49:07 <liq3> what version of SDL does OpenTTD use? 10:49:16 <peter1138> 1.2 10:49:18 <liq3> right. 10:49:45 <liq3> Ah well, I imagine proper GPU usage would fix the slow downs, but I doubt it's worth anyone's time to code it. 10:49:52 <__ln__> liq3: do you intend to say something about SDL and OS X? 10:49:52 <peter1138> It wouldn't. 10:50:13 <peter1138> Anyway, you run into the issue of colour mapping. 10:50:15 <liq3> Nah, just found a reddit article that says SDL 2.0 uses the GPU. 10:51:29 <peter1138> And we do some palette animation too. 10:51:46 <liq3> hrm 10:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> palette animation is a lost concept, i'm afraid :p 10:52:33 <Eddi|zuHause> like modern GPUs dropping 8bpp acceleration and stuff 10:52:46 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, paletted texture support is fading out, iirc. 10:53:20 <peter1138> Support for the EXT_paletted_texture extension has been dropped by the major GL vendors. If you really need paletted textures on new hardware, you may use shaders to achieve that effect. 10:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: so in all likelyhood, if you port blitting to the GPU, you have to drop a lot of features 10:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> or it will stop working in the near future 10:53:53 <peter1138> I think if you did it's an all-or-nothing change. 10:54:02 <liq3> heh. 10:54:21 <liq3> It only really affects people that make 1000+ train maps anyway. 10:54:29 <peter1138> liq3, not really 10:54:41 <liq3> ...Right, I forget I have a good GPU 10:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> on 1000+ train maps you have different issues than GPU acceleration 10:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the 1000+ sprites that trains add make virtually no difference 10:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> compared to the 1 million trees 10:55:54 <liq3> lol. 10:57:13 <Jinassi> animations make a huge impact 10:57:18 <peter1138> If it really lags though, you can try dropping your max zoom in level. If that improves it, edit the sprite cache size. Or something. 10:57:23 <peter1138> Palette animation does, yeah. 10:58:08 <Jinassi> we tested running server with grf that have the option to turn off the palette animations an it worked wonders on load 10:58:26 <peter1138> ... 10:58:34 <peter1138> Palette animation is a game option, not a GRF option. 10:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a setting for that, you know 10:59:00 <liq3> doubling the sprite cache seemed to have helped. Hard to tell without a FPS counter tho. 10:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the (dedicated) server throws all that stuff out 10:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should invest in dynamic sprite cache allocation 11:00:47 <peter1138> On a sane OS, if you allocate tons of sprite cache memory, it won't actually be allocated unless it's used. 11:00:54 <peter1138> Not sure about Windows. 11:02:17 <Jinassi> It reserves memory and if you do not have enough memory to be allocated for more clients it reminds you it cannot allocated given size and lowers it. 11:02:25 <liq3> ...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/ 11:02:33 <liq3> (millions?) 11:03:04 <liq3> CPUs just aren't good at rendering graphics. :/ 11:03:27 <peter1138> triangles are not sprites. 11:03:34 <liq3> Yes they are. How do you think the GPU textures them? 11:03:43 <liq3> They're actually more complicated.... 11:03:44 <peter1138> ... 11:03:49 <peter1138> triangles are triangles. 11:04:11 <peter1138> Textures are mapped to a complete mesh. 11:04:15 <liq3> You're really claiming 2d sprites would demand more GPU power than a 10,000+ triangle textured 3d model? 11:06:16 <peter1138> 1) There's several thousand sprites loaded. Most 3D games get away with reusing a smaller number of textures 11:06:46 <peter1138> 2) There's still CPU time involved in telling the GPU what to do 11:07:09 <liq3> You load all the sprites into the VRAM, and then the CPU is just telling the GPU where to put them. :/ 11:07:10 <peter1138> That's mostly because the game architecture isn't designed for the way 3D stuff works 11:07:45 <liq3> I think. I haven't done gfx programming recently. 11:08:02 <liq3> Yeh. i get that. 11:08:10 <liq3> I don't even think it's worth changing it over. 11:08:23 <peter1138> In OTTD, not everything is drawn every frame 11:08:52 <peter1138> With 3D acceleration, you either need to do that or faff about with some magic. 11:09:04 <liq3> I'm pretty sure you can just not draw certain things. 11:10:06 <peter1138> You could probably use a PBO or whatever the current least-deprecated method is. 11:10:24 <liq3> Shaders is the current method. 11:10:35 <liq3> I'm pretty sure even PBOs are out dated. 11:10:55 <peter1138> Shaders don't replace PBOs 11:10:58 <liq3> hrm. 11:11:04 <peter1138> Shaders replace a particular use of PBOs though. 11:11:05 <liq3> Yeh i dunno. I haven't done it in ages. 11:11:14 <liq3> Ah. Might be PBOs + shaders then. 11:11:17 <peter1138> You're thinking of things like bloom. 11:11:28 <liq3> Nah I'm thinking of drawing methods in opengl. 11:11:36 <liq3> Direct got removed ages ago. 11:11:50 <liq3> There was another one, and then another. I think PBO was the fastest? Don't remember. 11:12:10 <planetmaker> liq3, if you know your stuff around, it surely is a nice challenge to improve on the previous incarnation of the OpenGL blitter? :) 11:12:26 <planetmaker> we can be convinced, if things are backed up by actual profiling data 11:12:32 <liq3> I don't. I've done like a single tutorial on opengl. xD 11:12:50 <liq3> I'd have to learn it all again. :D 11:12:55 <peter1138> Ah, and expert then. 11:13:12 <liq3> Hey, I've made 2d programs in opengl. ;< 11:13:26 <peter1138> 12:02 < liq3> ...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/ 11:13:45 <peter1138> I'm glad you are able to substantiate that based on your extensive ability in opengl. 11:15:49 <peter1138> Every time a tile is drawn, there is a function called that determines what should be drawn, and adds to a list of sprites. This itself can take quite some CPU time. 11:16:11 <planetmaker> and couldn't be done by gpu :) 11:16:15 <peter1138> Of course, because not every tile is drawn all the time, that's alleviated. 11:16:50 <peter1138> It's not something you can even speed up with VBOs. 11:17:39 <peter1138> You'd need to keep state on exactly what was drawn last time to know if you need to update the VBO. 11:18:08 <liq3> peter1138: about polygon counts... http://wccftech.com/ryse-polygon-count-comparision-aaa-titles-crysis-star-citizen/ 11:18:18 <peter1138> liq3, sprites are not polygons. 11:18:26 <liq3> yes they are 11:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> no, they are also textures 11:19:07 <peter1138> No, sprites are not polygons. 11:19:24 <peter1138> Sprites are textures. 11:20:20 <argoneus> aren't all the sprites drawn to a buffer 11:20:23 <argoneus> which is then drawn all at once 11:20:27 <argoneus> instead of drawing sprites one by one 11:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 11:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and liq3 wants to change that 11:20:52 <peter1138> Yes, that's doing the drawing with the CPU. 11:21:12 <argoneus> polygons don't exist in 2d 11:21:15 <argoneus> sprites don't exist in 3d 11:21:15 <argoneus> :< 11:21:45 <peter1138> textures exist in 3d, they're pretty much the same thing. 11:21:54 <argoneus> can textures be animated? 11:22:26 <peter1138> Generally you just use multiple textures for that. 11:22:36 <argoneus> but with sprites 11:22:39 <argoneus> you can have sprite sheets 11:22:40 <argoneus> no? 11:22:43 <argoneus> with animations 11:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the game uses two types of animation 11:23:15 <Eddi|zuHause> palette animation that exchanges all pixels of one colour with another colour 11:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and sprite animation which just changes which sprite is drawn 11:23:35 <peter1138> Oh, yeah, you can use a larger texture and just map the bit you want onto the object, though I imagine that's not used much these days. 11:24:10 <argoneus> oh :< 11:24:15 <peter1138> Ok, so we can use shaders to implement palette animation. That does mean we have to redraw the whole scene every frame. 11:24:42 <peter1138> I would suggest changing to an event-based model. 11:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: may as well just make the whole game 3D then :p 11:26:06 <peter1138> Split the scenery up into chunks, each chunk is a display list (or whatever the latest least deprecated feature is now) 11:26:31 <peter1138> When a tileloop is processed and a tile changes, update that chunk. 11:26:40 <peter1138> Then you can just render the chunks 11:26:44 <peter1138> Then... 11:26:49 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, exactly. 11:27:32 <liq3> sorry, playing a game, talk later. 11:27:43 <argoneus> dat cop out 11:27:45 <peter1138> Ok, expert. 11:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what would we ever do without expert 11:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> s 11:28:14 <argoneus> anyway 11:28:23 <argoneus> if I write up some sort of tutorial, can I get some constructive feedback from you guys? 11:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause> like every newspaper that employs "terror experts" these days 11:28:50 *** tneo- is now known as tneo 11:29:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6A278.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:29:35 <argoneus> hm, there is a tutorial 11:29:38 <argoneus> but it's rather lengthy 11:31:21 <peter1138> Hmm, did the signal UI default to only path signals yet? 11:31:50 <argoneus> when? 11:31:57 <peter1138> That was a question. 11:32:11 <argoneus> I know 11:32:16 <argoneus> but you said "did it do X yet" 11:32:21 <argoneus> and I 11:32:25 <argoneus> m wondering how long ago you mean 11:32:29 <argoneus> by yet 11:32:30 <peter1138> Ever. 11:32:45 <argoneus> doesn't it default now? 11:33:11 <peter1138> Hmm, I think it can only show all signals. 11:33:46 <argoneus> ohh, like that 11:33:51 <argoneus> that no other signal is available? 11:34:48 <planetmaker> peter1138, it shows all signals. But there's a setting to cycle through path signals or all signals when ctrl+clicking 11:35:50 <peter1138> Hmm, default bus doesn't have enough power to reach top speed. 11:35:58 <peter1138> (Foster MKII Superbus) 11:36:09 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâŠ] 11:36:12 <V453000> realistic acceleration for RVs doesnt make sense in general 11:36:13 <peter1138> Wonder where those default power values came from... 11:36:28 <planetmaker> peter1138, I believe they were made up from thin air 11:37:02 <peter1138> V453000, how so? 11:37:27 <V453000> RVs are no trains, they need to slow down on hills, they need to slow down in curves etc 11:37:43 <V453000> if they dont do that, there is nothing interesting about them, they dont have any problem to solve 11:37:43 <peter1138> Huh? 11:37:59 <V453000> their slowing in curves with realistic acceleation is almost none 11:38:06 <V453000> uphill is similar 11:38:10 <V453000> even with 10% 11:38:30 <V453000> vs. the slow acceleration 11:38:45 <V453000> RVs have no means to solve the bad acceleration, the player cant do anything about it or invent a method to improve that 11:39:27 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:08 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 11:40:25 <argoneus> so 11:40:33 <argoneus> do PBS let trains reserve paths until the next signal or until the destination? 11:41:06 <peter1138> Signal, in general. 11:41:09 <planetmaker> trains decide on a new path when they reach any junction 11:41:19 <planetmaker> and reserve paths at signals 11:42:39 <peter1138> I don't think anything should be using the term "PBS" though. 11:43:18 <peter1138> I'm so glad we removed the old PBS before release :D 11:43:24 <planetmaker> :) 11:44:21 <peter1138> planetmaker, was that before your time? 11:44:32 <planetmaker> yup 11:44:48 <planetmaker> I started between 0.4.5 and 0.5.3 11:45:34 <planetmaker> but really only got into things when 0.5.3 was around 11:46:23 <peter1138> It was "funny" because we'd waited so long (well, it seemed like it at the time) to have PBS in, and it was there for a while... then we decided to remove it fairly soon before release. Just like that, heh. 11:46:50 <peter1138> It was pretty broken though, and never fixed the two-way station problem. 11:47:19 <planetmaker> I heard similar a few times. But I actually never tested that first incarnation 11:47:35 <peter1138> It was beautiful when it worked... 11:47:45 <peter1138> No where near as elegant as path signals are though. 11:48:25 <peter1138> It broke the promise that trains would never crash if you didn't mess with layout. 11:48:59 <planetmaker> :) 11:49:15 <planetmaker> that's basically what killed it, I guess 11:49:49 <peter1138> That would be what V453000 calls a BAD FEATURE 11:50:03 <planetmaker> :P 12:00:27 <liq3> peter1138: Games frequently have character models with 50,000+ polys. :/ 12:01:19 *** Tykling-9167 [tykling@gibfest.dk] has left #openttd [] 12:07:09 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has joined #openttd 12:09:11 *** Hazzard_ [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 12:14:42 *** MTsPony [~MTsPony@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 12:15:51 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:18:18 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: but maybe like 100 textures 12:18:40 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: the entire thing is textured. The GPU has to map the texture to the 50k+ polygons in '3d' space. 12:18:51 <liq3> There is no way drawing a few thousand 2d sprites is harder. :P 12:19:03 <argoneus> it depends on your engine 12:19:12 <liq3> Yes. I'm talking about properly coded GPU usage. 12:19:44 <V453000> why are you guys discussing this when openttd will never get 3D engine anyway :D 12:20:01 <liq3> peter1138 and Eddi|zuHause were insisting OpenGL wouldn't fix the lag problems. :< 12:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: but there are still only 100 different textures 12:20:13 <argoneus> what lag problems 12:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of 10000 12:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or 100000 12:20:28 <liq3> argoneus: load up PGZ2013 and zoom all the way out. :p 12:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that is 3 orders of magnitude 12:20:47 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: it's really irrelevant to a GPU :/ 12:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no it's not 12:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a bottleneck getting all this data to the GPU and stuff 12:21:34 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: You can probably just load every single sprite into VRAM when you load a save. 12:21:49 <argoneus> can you really 12:22:05 <argoneus> you do realize 12:22:08 <liq3> Even YETI is only 110mb, and that's 32bpp. 12:22:10 <argoneus> when you have any sort of animation in 3d 12:22:17 <argoneus> it's not the textures that are changing 12:22:20 <argoneus> but with sprites 12:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: but that is 110 COMPRESSED mb 12:22:25 <argoneus> you have a different sprite for every animation 12:22:36 <liq3> argoneus: Yes. There's ways to implement sprite animation with 3d hardware. 12:22:36 <argoneus> so for every possible sprite, and every possible animation it has 12:22:43 <argoneus> you'd need to store that on your video memory 12:23:15 <peter1138> I've got enough video memory. 12:23:24 <peter1138> But I'd have to stop playing it on my laptop. 12:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: again, there HAVE been opengl implementations, they ALL turned out SLOWER than what we have now. 12:24:30 <liq3> argoneus: You'd probably have sprite sheets (a single texture you only draw some of), or individual textuser for each sprite frame. 12:24:44 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: how were they implemented? 12:25:01 <Eddi|zuHause> because the CPU is busier shoving all this data onto the GPU than it would be just handling it by itself 12:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: look it up? 12:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: it's all buried in the forum somewhere, or the chat logs 12:26:13 <argoneus> I can't believe people are complaining about the performance of a game that runs on a pentium II 12:26:25 <peter1138> coo, 2008 :) 12:26:34 <liq3> I don't really care, it's just a minor annoyance. 12:27:06 <argoneus> I mean 12:27:09 <argoneus> this game runs on a fucking phone 12:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> phones nowadays have way more processing power than a pentium II 12:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> although when i first got TT, my 386-SX 25 had problems with more than like 10 trains... 12:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> when i got to 80 trains (maximum), it was like 0.5 fps 12:31:05 <peter1138> Bet you wish it had GPU acceleration. 12:31:07 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 12:31:11 <peter1138> *wished 12:31:42 <Pikkaphone> if wishes were fishes we'd all get wet 12:31:55 <peter1138> Possibly the 32bpp remapping algorithm could be done with shaders now. 12:32:09 <peter1138> That's a lot of new code though. 12:32:32 <peter1138> Someone will want particle effects... 12:32:37 <liq3> lol. 12:32:47 <liq3> Make the smoke particle effects. particle effects for the brakes. :D 12:33:28 <peter1138> Then someone will complain that it's OpenGL instead of DirectX11... 12:34:08 <peter1138> There's a game I play where they have JUST updated the engine to use DirectX9 and Shader Model 2 shaders. 12:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: one of the monkey island games had a "fishing well" 12:34:32 <peter1138> Previously it was DirectX 8 and presumably whatever shaders that supports. 12:34:32 <Pikkaphone> surely making openttd full 3d would be really easy to do? 12:34:37 <liq3> OpenGL is better just for being cross platform. 12:34:51 <Pikkaphone> just map the pixels to a 3d engine 12:34:51 <liq3> Pikkaphone: not likely. I'm going to check the source code soon just to find out tho. 12:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: yes, just install train fever. 12:34:55 <peter1138> And so... there are now complaints from people whose computers can no longer run it. 12:35:06 <peter1138> Because they're using 2004 graphics cards that worked fine before. 12:35:08 <liq3> Pikkaphone: also, if you mean 3d models, that would be huge amounts of work. 12:35:24 <peter1138> Pikkaphone, we got a live one :D 12:35:41 <Pikkaphone> yikes :) 12:35:58 <argoneus> make openttd support 3d glasses 12:36:07 <argoneus> I want to see trains in my room 12:36:17 <planetmaker> asking for oculus rift support is an old feature request ;) 12:36:21 <peter1138> 3D glasses for a game with orthogonal projection... 12:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, about a week old :p 12:36:38 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, nah, surely several months 12:36:40 <argoneus> planetmaker: was that a "hehe xD" request 12:36:42 <argoneus> or was it serious 12:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: didn't see that 12:37:15 <Pikkaphone> if it was andythenorth making it, hard to tell 12:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> [Freitag, 23. August 2013] [23:43:16] <__ln__> will there be support for oculus rift? 12:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so over a year even 12:38:50 <Pikkaphone> 3ds port? 12:39:15 <peter1138> Bin it. 12:39:27 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, 16 months: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=65990 12:40:29 <argoneus> lol 12:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if i paid more than 10 seconds of attention to that thread back then :p 12:41:26 <planetmaker> I did as long as I typed the answer. Maybe 15 seconds? 12:43:18 <V453000> just shows what kind of idiots visits tt-f :D 12:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that certainly wasn't in my mind anymore when i learned what an oculus rift actually is 12:44:41 <planetmaker> I recon oculus rift was a thing already then. dunno anymore, though 12:44:58 <argoneus> when oculus rift started being a thing 12:45:01 <argoneus> it was all porn and horror 12:45:06 <argoneus> is openttd either of those? 12:45:12 <V453000> yes both 12:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly 12:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i always get scared when PBI plays this explosion sound 12:46:12 <planetmaker> sure 12:46:31 <Pikkaphone> boom 12:46:44 <planetmaker> the horror of glitching sprites, wrong stats and the porn of long vehicles uncensored version 12:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that is clearly one of the worst BAD FEATURES of all times :p 12:47:19 <V453000> trains going in and out of tunnels 12:47:25 <planetmaker> omg! 12:47:27 <V453000> quite explicit 12:47:39 <V453000> even worse, some of them are slugs 12:48:52 <peter1138> if your trains glitch going into tunnels, your offsets are probably wrong 12:49:02 <peter1138> or you're using zbase, although that's just the same reason really. 12:49:22 <argoneus> zbase is art 12:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> or these czech tunnels 12:49:26 <argoneus> oi 12:49:39 <peter1138> zbase is crap sorry 12:49:40 <Pikkaphone> http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/2i1hky/full_load_any_cargo_not_working_on_aircraft/ 12:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "art" does not automatically mean "good" 12:49:59 <Pikkaphone> can anyone be bothered giving the real answer? 12:50:19 <peter1138> Pikkaphone, no 12:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: planes are special cased to ignore mail 12:50:34 <Pikkaphone> I know that, eddi 12:50:49 <Pikkaphone> fair enough, peeter 12:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that is the real answer? 12:50:58 <Pikkaphone> yes 12:51:14 <peter1138> Allocating 2.00GiB of spritecache failed... 12:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, then i'm certainly not bothered :) 12:51:20 <peter1138> Hmm, but it's only set to 512 :S 12:51:38 <Pikkaphone> zbase is what it is 12:51:44 <planetmaker> peter1138, I think the limit for it in OpenTTD is that, 512M? 12:52:01 <planetmaker> hm... but why 2G then? 12:52:01 <Pikkaphone> as a starting point for 32bpp, it's fine 12:52:01 <peter1138> planetmaker, I didn't ask it to allocate 2GB. 12:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's multiplied by 4 for 32bpp? 12:52:10 <peter1138> planetmaker, does it x4? 12:52:19 <planetmaker> peter1138, what? zbase? yes. 12:52:26 <planetmaker> it has 1x, 2x and 4x sprites 12:52:31 <peter1138> That's not what I aksed. 12:52:34 <peter1138> Or asked. 12:52:36 <argoneus> do openttd sprites make heavy use of the alpha channel? 12:52:42 <argoneus> for transparency 12:52:44 <peter1138> spritecache * 4 12:52:48 <peter1138> not 4x zoom :S 12:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: too little data. 12:52:56 <liq3> planetmaker: does the blitter draw the entire scene and then just pass it to the framebuffer? 12:53:08 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: too little data? 12:53:12 <peter1138> argoneus, every single ground tile has alpha. 12:53:16 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: most sprites have transparent pieces 12:53:37 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 12:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's either 0% or 100%, rarely anything in between 12:53:48 <argoneus> how is transparency done in ttd? alpha channel or some solid color? 12:53:53 <peter1138> Nearly all vehicle sprites have alpha. 12:53:54 <argoneus> that is then filtered out 12:54:01 <Pikkaphone> alpha in 32bpp 12:54:09 <Pikkaphone> the other in 8bpp 12:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> in 8bpp mode -> solid colour 12:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> in 32bpp mode -> alpha 12:54:26 <argoneus> I bet you use magenta 12:54:33 <argoneus> because everyone uses magenta for some reason 12:54:48 <peter1138> no, blue, but the palette is arbitrary. 12:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's usually represented as blue, but essentially it's colour index 0 12:54:59 <peter1138> zbase recolours look shit too :( 12:55:14 <argoneus> so 0 0 255 is transparent always? 12:55:18 <V453000> I have no idae how to make recolours in 32bpp 12:55:24 <peter1138> no, only index 0 12:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no 12:55:29 <Pikkaphone> I have an idea 12:55:34 <planetmaker> ! 12:55:35 <argoneus> oh 12:55:36 <Pikkaphone> but I don't do it 12:55:36 <argoneus> pallete 12:55:36 <argoneus> right 12:55:43 <argoneus> palette* 12:55:45 <V453000> myeah 12:56:01 <V453000> I would like to have at least some details CC-able 12:56:24 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you need some overlay mask 12:56:27 <peter1138> V453000, basically you make a sprite containing just the recolour parts 12:56:41 <planetmaker> V453000, look at the water in pota-ghat :) 12:56:42 <Pikkaphone> is fairly well documented, innit? 12:56:45 <peter1138> then you make it 8bpp and use the recolour indices 12:57:11 <peter1138> then you adjust brightness on the 32bpp sprite underneath the mask to adjust brightness of the recolour part 12:57:15 <peter1138> simple ;) 12:57:27 <V453000> ._. 12:57:28 <V453000> k 12:57:33 <Pikkaphone> the alternative is making separate sprites for each cc, which is a silly idea 12:57:40 <V453000> XD 12:57:45 <V453000> grfsize x16 ftw 12:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, NUTS! 12:57:46 <Pikkaphone> snowballs the size of the grf 12:57:49 <peter1138> Pikkaphone, very silly 12:58:00 <peter1138> Pikkaphone, and the hue is wrong! 12:58:05 <peter1138> Pikkaphone, and it doesn't support RGB recolours! 12:58:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: well, there are grfs out there that are 50% recolour masks :p 12:58:17 <V453000> fuck RGB recolours where did they go 12:58:22 <peter1138> i have them here 12:58:26 <peter1138> did you want them? 12:58:26 <V453000> want 12:58:35 <V453000> amazing feature 12:58:45 <planetmaker> Pikkaphone, can one actually query the CC instead of the companyID? 12:59:10 <Pikkaphone> yes planetmaker 12:59:34 <Pikkaphone> it's how the liveries in pineapple work 12:59:47 <planetmaker> oh 12:59:53 <Pikkaphone> also, eg, the boxcars in nars 13:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikkaphone: did you change the colour names to livery names? :) 13:00:22 <Pikkaphone> nope 13:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anyone ever used that feature, since it was introduced... 13:00:41 <peter1138> damn zbase vehicles being too big :S 13:01:31 <peter1138> ? 13:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the one company colour GRF out there was never updated to touch the colour names 13:02:36 <Pikkaphone> also the hue is *different*, not wrong. :p 13:05:54 <Pikkaphone> I certainly wouldn't describe zbase's colour mapping as 'right' 13:06:04 <peter1138> No, it's not. 13:06:30 <peter1138> I suspect it falls foul of just using one of the remap colours. 13:07:28 <peter1138> And just like good CC with 8bpp, you need to use all of them to make good 32bpp CC. 13:07:48 <peter1138> This is probably quite tricky to do in a sane way with a 3D renderer though. 13:08:20 <peter1138> It doesn't help that the CC elements in zBase are really really chunky. 13:09:59 <Flygon> Is there any TBRS set that's actually compatible with UKRS? 13:10:42 <Pikkaphone> what's a tbrs? 13:10:53 <Flygon> Total Bridge Renewal Set 13:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of "compatible" do you mean? 13:11:13 <peter1138> What makes a bridge set compatible with a train set? 13:11:32 <Flygon> Oh, UK Road Se 13:11:36 <Flygon> Sorry, I forgot ambiguity x.x 13:11:44 <Flygon> Eddi: Asthetically 13:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there are TBRS versions for a handful of road sets buried in the forum somewhere 13:12:36 <Flygon> Yeah, I've been trying to find x.x 13:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but quite honestly, bridge sets caused me to stick with the default roads. 13:13:24 <Flygon> Ach x.x 13:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> they're not terrible, and consistency is more important to me. 13:13:28 <Flygon> I never liked the default roads 13:13:43 <Flygon> Long story short... FINALLY want to do a game with the Dutch road furnature 13:14:18 <Flygon> If I can't get that working tho, may's well use the US Road Set 13:17:05 <Flygon> Closest I can find is a modified PCX... but I don't know how to recompile the GRFs for OTTD 13:17:16 <Flygon> And I doubt the Ragnarok Online recompilers I have are very useful 13:17:58 <Flygon> Eh, screwit 13:18:01 <Flygon> America time 13:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec -d and grfcodec -e 13:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> if the offsets are the same, it shouldn't be hard 13:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure you change the GRFID 13:19:13 <argoneus> you guys are making me to actually want to try make a newgrf 13:19:24 <argoneus> but I can't into drawing or modelling 13:19:27 <argoneus> :< 13:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't either. hasn't stopped me. 13:20:06 <Flygon> Aw man 13:20:14 <Flygon> Now I feel guilty for never finishing the Comeng 13:20:41 <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/comengopenttd.png Been meaning to redo this in voxel form 13:20:44 <Flygon> Because like... 13:20:47 <Flygon> Melbourne has EMUs too :U 13:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> use pixeltool 13:21:50 <Flygon> richardwheeler.net? 13:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if that is what the adress is... 13:22:22 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: what kind of newgrfs did you make? 13:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the kind where trains have overlength and many turning angles 13:22:48 <argoneus> also is pixeltool some actual software or do you just mean make pixels 13:23:01 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: oh you make NARS? 13:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: find it in the forum 13:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no 13:23:31 <argoneus> is it not in bananas? 13:23:33 *** Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d86be5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> https://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/LATEST/ 13:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not released 13:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> due to... missing graphics :p 13:24:48 <Flygon> Arf, I need to work on being able to visualize 3D in my head x.x 13:24:52 <Flygon> I need to get myself some lego bricks 13:25:17 <argoneus> Game running cost (AS): =WENN(ODER((traction_type="Electric");(traction_type="Electric/Narrow");(AC9="3rd Rail");(AC9="Dual Power")); (($AM4*pow(($N9/$AO4);$AP4))*pow(($O9/$AO5);$AP5)); 13:25:21 <argoneus> lol 13:25:28 <argoneus> is this some excel formula 13:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but where did you find that? 13:25:57 <argoneus> in the thing you linked? 13:26:08 <argoneus> I was looking for screenshots :< 13:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> is that shown ingame? 13:26:17 <argoneus> no 13:26:19 <argoneus> I'm at work 13:26:24 <argoneus> I can't play ttd 13:26:59 <argoneus> hm 13:27:09 <argoneus> seems like pixel art is more about calculating than drawing 13:27:58 <V453000> no just being a fucking liar and pretending there are shapes that the eyes see, but the shapes dont exist in the image 13:28:06 <V453000> all it takes really :) 13:28:27 <argoneus> so I don't need to be able to draw realistic faces to make a pixel art car? 13:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not really 13:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it may even be counter productive 13:29:42 <V453000> yeah 13:29:42 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:45 <V453000> you totally dont need to do that 13:29:48 <V453000> I cant do that for shit 13:30:13 <argoneus> so for one train 13:30:15 <argoneus> you need 13:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/1990/Hawthorn___Co.__6._Okt_1922.png 13:30:21 <argoneus> 4 sprites? 13:30:25 <V453000> 8 13:30:30 <argoneus> up, down, diagonal, symmetry? 13:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> or 24 :) 13:30:41 <V453000> well usually 5 then 13:30:43 <argoneus> 5 then 13:30:54 <juzza1> 10.5 13:31:02 <V453000> up, down, side, diagonal, other diagonal 13:31:06 <V453000> for non-symmetric trains 13:31:06 <argoneus> looks nice Eddi|zuHause 13:31:16 <argoneus> can you draw a human bod 13:31:18 <argoneus> body* 13:31:19 <argoneus> ? 13:31:55 <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/repository/entry/gfx/SLUGwtf2.png 13:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i did not draw those vehicles, oberhÃŒmer did. but he didn't finish all vehicles. the unfinished one are just coloured boxes 13:32:35 <V453000> oberhumer draws terribly 13:32:49 <V453000> nutracks are something so ugly that it doesnt have equal 13:33:27 <argoneus> that slug 13:33:28 <argoneus> has nice shading 13:33:41 <argoneus> wait 13:33:44 <argoneus> so when you guys do pixel art 13:33:49 <argoneus> you don't make a large picture which you then resize 13:33:53 <argoneus> you make a small picture and zoom in? 13:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that image crashes the browser 13:34:12 <V453000> obviously, yes, you draw with 1600% zoom 13:34:19 <V453000> or around that 13:34:21 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has joined #openttd 13:34:45 <V453000> it is quite small Eddi 13:34:45 <V453000> got a lot bigger ones 13:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not about the size 13:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i can view it, but when i try to zoom, it crashes 13:35:21 <V453000> doesnt crash my browser 13:35:26 <V453000> ah 13:35:29 <V453000> well I didnt try that 13:37:17 <argoneus> try this picture 13:37:22 <argoneus> http://home.arcor.de/slxviper/8367_7835_48-square.gif 13:37:39 <V453000> gay 13:37:55 <V453000> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/SLUG%20NEST%2C%202141-08-23.png 13:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that's supposed to be 13:38:21 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: I dont understand what it is supposed to be -> it is gay 13:38:27 <argoneus> are you using linux 13:38:46 <V453000> NO 13:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that just looks terrible, does not crash :p 13:38:51 <V453000> :) 13:38:54 <argoneus> oh 13:38:57 <argoneus> on linux 13:39:00 <argoneus> it starts eating your memory 13:39:04 <argoneus> then you get thrashing 13:39:06 <argoneus> and then X crashes 13:39:17 <argoneus> at least it did a while ago, maybe they fixed it 13:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> only if you do it wrong 13:39:23 <peter1138> argoneus, if you resized a large image down, it would not be pixel art. 13:39:40 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:40:21 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 13:40:25 <argoneus> but that slug thing 13:40:26 <argoneus> it has nice shading 13:40:29 <argoneus> I don't understand shading 13:40:30 <argoneus> :( 13:40:44 <argoneus> is there a consensus where the light comes from in openttd? 13:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the consensus is that different people have different consensuses 13:41:09 <peter1138> Yes, it comes from the sky. 13:41:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and the consensus of the other people is always wrong 13:41:16 <argoneus> b-b-but 13:41:30 <argoneus> so people shade their things from different directions? 13:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but mostly it comes either from the right, or from the lower right 13:41:54 <planetmaker> 4:30h to 5:00 is the usual light direction. But it differs somewhat, depending on where you look 13:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> except when it doesn't 13:42:03 <peter1138> Let's make everything out of voxels. 13:42:11 <peter1138> Then apply real-time lighting. 13:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it's changed purely for artistic reasons 13:42:17 <planetmaker> but that direction usually gives best look 13:42:50 <liq3> ew voxel.s 13:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> there was something recently about one of MB's train sheds being "wrong" 13:42:59 <peter1138> cubicals? 13:42:59 <argoneus> okay 13:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> cubicles! 13:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> cubicles disturb me very 13:43:46 <planetmaker> it reminds me of the missing undo-knob 13:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> undo-knob would be fun... makes you single-step through all tree changes of the past second :p 13:45:46 <peter1138> Yeah, add ^Z, ^X, ^C and ^V support... 13:46:04 <peter1138> copy & paste, for people who don't like playing the game. 13:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> in all the years i played with patchpacks that had C&P in them, i have never ever once found a use for it... 13:46:34 <liq3> Because making the same terminal station setup over and over is "playing the game". 13:47:10 <peter1138> exactly! 13:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or maybe a DIFFERENT terminal station setup? 13:48:19 <Flygon> Ach. What was the option to show how far station's capture population again? 13:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> new challenge: play a game without using the terraforming tool 13:48:26 <Flygon> Ever since I reformatted the desktop, OTTD has been a mess 13:48:38 <Flygon> Forgot the configuration is not stored in where OTTD is stored because... OTTD 13:49:05 <peter1138> Because operating systems are multiuser these days. 13:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: all modern games store data in the personal directory 13:49:23 <Flygon> This shows how often I play modern games, then 13:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't back that up, it's your own problem... 13:49:38 <Flygon> OTTD is the only game that has ever exhibited this behaviour that I've used O_o 13:50:02 <Flygon> And I've often deliberately avoided using those directories since I was a kid anyway x.x 13:50:08 <Flygon> I'm... weird x.x 13:50:27 <Flygon> But, yeah 13:50:32 <Flygon> Forgot how to show the capture graphics 13:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> those directories didn't exist when i was a kid... 13:50:33 <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: why would I make a DIFFERENT one? :o 13:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: because the one you had doesn't fit the map? 13:50:52 <Flygon> Either way, I've always found them confusing 13:51:04 <Flygon> To me, all game stuff goes in game directory, not in some unrelated directory :P 13:51:09 <argoneus> where are the times 13:51:19 <argoneus> when you could build a road over someone else's railroad, then delete the road, and railroad was gone too 13:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: modern OSes prevent you from changing anything in "the game directory", because viruses and stuff would do that... 13:51:48 <Flygon> ... 13:52:02 <Flygon> And how the heck are they suppose to run practically everything written before 2007? 13:52:13 <argoneus> Flygon: everything modern has config somewhere 13:52:25 <argoneus> appdata, documents, ~/.config ~/.programname 13:52:36 <argoneus> some programs have data in the windows registry! 13:52:37 <peter1138> Flygon, that's why so many shit games need you to run as administrator... 13:52:47 <Flygon> peter1138: Good point 13:52:50 <Flygon> Ach, it just... 13:52:52 <Flygon> It just ruins me 13:53:02 <Flygon> I was never taught this way, never raised this way 13:53:10 <Flygon> And to me, it makes utterly no sense 13:53:10 <argoneus> the reddit client saves data in its own directory 13:53:13 <argoneus> you can see how they did it 13:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: that's a compile option 13:53:38 <argoneus> o-oh 13:53:48 <argoneus> of course it is 13:53:49 <argoneus> fug 13:54:02 <peter1138> There's a reddit client? I just use my webbrowser. 13:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> or alternatively, where your openttd.cfg is 13:54:22 <argoneus> peter1138: you play ttd in firefox? 13:54:32 <Flygon> And I still can't find the station capture display option x.x 13:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i assumed he meant the reddit-community's openttd patchpack 13:54:44 <argoneus> Flygon: what is station capture? 13:55:06 <Flygon> Where it shows the blue tiles where the station is being built 13:55:14 <Flygon> And the white tiles where it captures the houses/apartments 13:55:16 <Flygon> Or industry 13:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there's a button in the build station window 13:55:33 <Flygon> ... 13:55:34 <Flygon> ... 13:55:36 <Flygon> Okay, well 13:55:37 <Flygon> I feel dumb. 13:55:44 <argoneus> are you new to the game? 13:55:53 <Flygon> I was trawling everywhere in the advanced settings x.x 13:55:56 <Flygon> New to the game? 13:56:04 <argoneus> yes 13:56:08 <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottddenvercomplex.png 13:56:21 <Flygon> No x3 13:56:23 <Flygon> Just arrogant 13:56:48 <argoneus> that ship what the fuck 13:56:53 <argoneus> is this europa universalis 13:56:58 <argoneus> no.. is this anno? 13:57:11 <Flygon> Nope 13:57:18 <Flygon> I've just got poor taste in asthetics 13:57:32 <argoneus> oh 13:57:33 <argoneus> no 13:57:34 <argoneus> it's ok 13:57:45 * argoneus afk hour 13:59:17 <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland2041cloverleaf.png Still find of sad I lost the .sav because I assumed the .savs were in the OpenTTD folder instead of the My Documents folder, hahaha 13:59:20 <Flygon> Over 47 games lost :D 14:00:34 <Eddi|zuHause> just restore it from your extensive backups 14:02:28 <Flygon> I'm an idiot that stores everything on his desktop that would be considered backup worthy then saves the entire desktop :P 14:03:11 <Flygon> I assumed too much over games using the /save/ folder in their root, due to the other games I play usually being AoEII, CivII, or, whatever :B 14:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that would be different if you played AoE III, Civ IV, or, whatever... 14:03:56 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:04:03 <Flygon> Hated them both 14:04:10 <Flygon> Well, actually, never played IV 14:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and Civ II is not 2007, more like 1997 14:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i couldn't get Civ II to run in wine... 14:05:30 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 14:05:33 <Flygon> Uhn... 14:05:39 <Flygon> Wait, which Civ II? 14:05:43 <Flygon> There's the MPG and Classic 14:05:46 <Flygon> Linux user? 14:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> what's MPG? 14:06:11 <Flygon> 32-bit Civ II 14:06:12 <Flygon> Basically 14:06:15 <Flygon> Multiplayer Gold 14:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not that 14:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i tried, it started up, but quickly sound got corrupted and then it crashed 14:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i probably would get fed up with the ancient game rules within 10 minutes and stop 14:08:52 <Flygon> Eh 14:08:53 <Flygon> I do 14:09:02 <Flygon> That's why I do Alpha Centauri :B 14:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> like when i tried to play freeciv 14:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> let's see whether this new alpha centauri will be good... 14:09:47 <Flygon> I already gave up 14:09:52 <Flygon> On 'Beyond Earth' 14:09:55 <Flygon> Which is annoying 14:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> sounded like it's based on civ5 14:09:57 <Pikka> peter1138, people who don't like playing the game should go and write AIs to play it for them 14:10:05 <Pikka> that's my plan 14:10:08 <Flygon> Because both my Ex and my Father are constantly yabbering on about how it's going to be awesome 14:10:23 <Flygon> But the asthetic direction already has me convinced it'll be multiple explicatives 14:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever... civ5 looked weird like that at first as well 14:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but i still found it enjoyable 14:11:47 <Flygon> Lack V on my Steam 14:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't play alpha centauri nearly as much as civ2 14:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which is mainly because my monitor was too dark, and the colour correction disabled itself when switching to 16bit colours 14:13:50 <Flygon> Hmm 14:14:04 <Flygon> It should've been possible to modify the base palette 14:14:23 <Eddi|zuHause> running "windowed" mode would have sufficed 14:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but that didn't seem to have been an option back then 14:14:52 <Flygon> I forgot if they've figured out how to modify the game to do that yet 14:15:04 <Flygon> I still gotta figure out IF palette modification is possible 14:15:38 <Flygon> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/SMACX/ChinaDomination/crawlersareop.png The default palette is awful for modding 14:16:29 <peter1138> I've got V on Steam, but... Civ and Civ 2 were the best. 14:16:49 <peter1138> Maybe I should install Win95 in a VM for Civ 2? :D 14:17:12 <Flygon> Shame I and II'll never get Steamed or GOG'd 14:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause> my civ1 got corrupted at some point because someone tried to patch the german .exe with an english patch 14:17:25 <Flygon> Steam'll never happen because... they lost the source code and borf 14:17:33 <Flygon> And GoG because... GoG 14:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with GoG now? 14:17:46 <peter1138> Hmm... 14:17:51 <peter1138> There's always freeciv? ;( 14:18:52 <Flygon> Eddi: Nothing's wrong with it 14:18:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i played a civ4 mod called "planetfall", which was based on alpha centauri 14:18:59 <Flygon> It's just that I doubt they'll ever release it on GoG 14:19:50 <peter1138> Hmm, I don't appear to have Civ any more :S 14:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't, either... 14:21:51 <peter1138> Hmm, I've got civwin! 14:22:10 <peter1138> Which segfaults wine. 14:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i have win 3.11 in dosbox 14:24:15 <peter1138> 8 bit 11 kHz sound effects :D 14:24:42 <Flygon> Man 14:24:46 <Flygon> I hear those figures 14:24:58 <Flygon> And I think of those experiments with the Mega Drive... 14:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the... what? 14:25:24 <Flygon> Genesis 14:25:33 <Flygon> 1988 hardware? 14:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> we didn't have any hardware before 1989 14:26:10 <Flygon> Made Sonic the Hedgehog famous? 14:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never played that 14:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i've never owned a console 14:26:51 <Flygon> I'll ultra-simplify this 14:27:06 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:27:17 <Flygon> It was an Amiga that took cartridges and had an FM based sound system (and a DAC) instead of a sample based one 14:27:29 <Flygon> Also it has a Z80 inside it 14:27:43 <Flygon> Alongside the 68k, because... like, it has the letter Z in it 14:27:49 <Flygon> And that's an extremely cool letter 14:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never got into amiga either 14:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, what's the point of this historic excourse? 14:30:04 <Xaroth|Work> <3 Megadrive 14:30:41 <Flygon> Eddi: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Gates%20to%20Infinity%20-%20Glacier%20Palace%20%28Great%20Spire%29.wav Long story short, got bored enough to make tracks able to be stuffed through a 1988 computer's DAC :U 14:30:59 <Xaroth|Work> lol 14:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not clicking on that... 14:31:33 <Flygon> You dislike orchistra hits? D: 14:31:39 <Xaroth|Work> Flygon: ever played Rock'n'Roll Racing? 14:31:52 <Flygon> Does it have orchistra hits? 14:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you mean like this "demo scene" that takes stuff rendered on modern computers and shoves it through ancient things like atari 2600? 14:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> (which is WAAAAY before my time) 14:32:50 <Xaroth|Work> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KusvcKJLCOg @Flygon 14:32:53 <Flygon> That implies the demoscene doesn't know about thems procedural generationializationings 14:33:15 <Flygon> Nah, you'd never get stuff like that .wav happening in, say, a Mega Drive demo 14:33:37 <Flygon> Unless it was a wild contest entry anyway, and you don't mind paying for a good bank switcher... 14:33:51 <Flygon> Then again 14:34:04 <Flygon> The machine CAN address 10mbytes of flat ROM without the CD drive or the 32x... 14:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence makes no sense whatsoever 14:34:19 <Jinassi> run this: http://conspiracy.hu/get/21/ 14:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> may as well be describing a voodoo ceremony 14:34:45 <Flygon> Xaroth: Sorry for the delay. On a more serious note, yep, I am familiar x3 14:35:02 <Flygon> Also apperantly the show's Finnish dub is brilliantly 90s 14:37:40 <Flygon> Xaroth: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/04.wav I also put this through because I thought it'd be funny 14:39:29 <Flygon> Never had Biker Mice as a kid, either way 14:50:43 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 14:50:46 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 14:58:51 <Flygon> Arf 14:58:55 <Flygon> Sorry for being so... well 14:59:00 <Flygon> Dumb, earlier 14:59:07 <Flygon> Just been one of those evenings x.x 15:02:44 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 15:09:05 <argoneus> hello 15:10:35 <Alberth> o/ 15:10:57 <planetmaker> \o 15:12:46 <LordAro> /o 15:15:56 *** SHOTbyGUN [shotbygun@213-186-253-83.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:00 <Alberth> so we lost partially grass stages, apparently, I never noticed :) 15:21:09 <argoneus> o\ 15:23:23 <planetmaker> did openttd loose that or just ogfx+landscape? 15:24:02 <planetmaker> actually, only the latter 15:29:48 <Alberth> :O any idea how that happened? 15:30:09 <Rubidium> obviously my patch to NML 15:30:13 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:33:17 <Alberth> ah, not in opengfx+landscape itself thus, what I was thinking (and finding quite weird) 15:33:51 <Rubidium> Alberth: well... I'd be amazed if my patch did it ;) 15:34:31 <Alberth> :D 15:34:36 <Rubidium> especially since my patch was after the last nightly 15:37:18 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.68.6] has joined #openttd 15:43:35 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f7443e5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:44:18 <Alberth> quak 15:45:04 <frosch123> hai 15:45:43 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has joined #openttd 15:53:15 <planetmaker> Alberth, probably simply some c&p error in the sprite export scripts or so 15:54:10 <planetmaker> maybe I renamed a layer which I better had not renamed or so 15:54:17 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:54:24 <planetmaker> (or rename in further places, too) 15:54:24 <peter1138> Doesn't affect TTD graphics ;) 15:55:00 <planetmaker> pöh! :P 15:55:10 <planetmaker> nor actually zbase 15:55:48 <peter1138> might as well 15:57:37 *** Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.189.113] has joined #openttd 15:58:19 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.68.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:31 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.68.6] has joined #openttd 16:01:51 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:06:33 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.68.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:22:18 *** Pokka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 16:22:47 <Pokka> what did you do? 16:23:17 <peter1138> Ate it. 16:23:27 <Pokka> nom nom nom 16:23:52 <planetmaker> *burp* 16:24:42 *** LadyHawk [~LadyHawk@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:25:02 <Pokka> http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/armstrongturbine/armstrng.htm 16:25:13 <Pokka> BAD FEATURES 16:25:17 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:26:26 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:26:32 *** Pokka is now known as Pikka 16:28:10 <Pikka> "On 12 Nov 1922, 59mph was achieved pulling 65 tons, but the boiler pressure could not be got above 170psi (instead of the designed 200psi) and coal was burnt at the frightening rate of 40lb/mile. A conventional L&YR 4-6-0 could pull 400 tons at the same burn rate. Further runs took place on 13 May 1923, but the results were worse than even a standard 2-4-2 tank engine, and the machine was returned to Armstrong-Whitworth and wri 16:28:10 <Pikka> tten off. " 16:28:21 <Alberth> looks awesome though :) 16:28:46 <Pikka> someone (tm) should make a newgrf containing nothing but hilariously awful experimental vehicles 16:29:36 <V453000> someone already made a newgrf with hilariously awful vehicles, is that enough? :P 16:30:09 <Pikka> I don't know who you mean 16:30:53 <Pinkbeast> Pikka: Mind you, there's no denying the honking great cowling on the back looks cool 16:31:38 <V453000> no nuts 16:32:05 <Pinkbeast> Also http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php/0-6-6-0_Leader would surely qualify 16:32:55 <Pikka> eh, well 16:33:05 <Pikka> at least in TTD terms the Leader is alright 16:33:32 <Pikka> but the ramsey turbine would be slow, heavy, underpowered and very expensive. :D 16:33:57 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâŠ] 16:34:02 <Rubidium> ... and it would be cursing a lot? 16:34:09 <Pikka> yes 16:34:11 <Pinkbeast> There's that mad 6-2-0 Crampton built in an attempt to match the big engines on the broad gauge, too. "Liverpool" ? 16:35:39 <Pikka> 19th century, which is in itself a bad feature :) 16:35:50 <Jinassi> Would ER22 fit into that category? 16:36:21 <Pinkbeast> I had fun with your 19th century stuff even if it's a bad feature. :-P 16:37:27 <Pinkbeast> And that completely impractical Colani design for the USSR 16:38:05 <Pikka> yep 16:38:19 <Pikka> now we just need 'someone' to make the grf 16:38:27 <Pikka> which nobody will want to use anyway :) 16:42:43 <Alberth> ha :p 16:43:42 <V453000> downloaded my first palette file 12.7.2011 at 0:57 :D 16:45:44 *** CaterinaRossetti [~CaterinaR@95.65.118.233] has joined #openttd 16:47:13 <Alberth> deleted all palettes last August? :) 16:47:39 <V453000> it is 2013 Alberth :D 16:47:43 <V453000> 2011 I started drawing NUTS 16:48:01 <V453000> I mean 2014, not 2012 :P 16:48:05 <V453000> anyway 16:48:11 <Alberth> :D 16:52:09 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has joined #openttd 16:53:56 <peter1138> DERP 16:56:49 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:56:52 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:10:02 <Pinkbeast> Oh, Brunel's pneumatic railway! You could have NuImpracticalTracks to go with impractical trains. 17:14:38 *** CaterinaRossetti [~CaterinaR@95.65.118.233] has quit [] 17:24:10 *** LadyHawk [~LadyHawk@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has joined #openttd 17:26:21 *** Progman [~progman@p57A186BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 17:29:21 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 17:32:52 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26945 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:32:45 UTC) 17:32:53 <DorpsGek> -Fix-ish: better scaling of the "cells" in which variety distribution happens for non-square maps (attempt to make reasonably square areas) 17:37:25 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host190-59-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:37:54 <Alberth> hi hi 17:38:19 <Wolf01> gwkki 17:38:24 <Wolf01> *hello 17:40:10 <Alberth> :D 17:40:23 <Alberth> a case of a moved keyboard :) 17:40:32 <Wolf01> happens :P 17:40:52 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26946 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:40:45 UTC) 17:40:53 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26945): MSVC doesn't seem to have round yet 17:40:58 <Alberth> better than a weird keyboard remapping :) 17:41:21 <Wolf01> such dworak 17:41:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26947 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-02 17:41:36 UTC) 17:41:44 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6122, FS#6125]: textual improvements of the base "translation" 17:45:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26948 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-10-02 17:45:22 UTC) 17:45:31 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:32 <DorpsGek> catalan - 2 changes by juanjo 17:45:33 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ 17:45:40 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 17:45:41 <Wolf01> once upon a time, in a office far far away, I inverted the comma and dot keys of a keyboard of a coworker, he didn't notice until one day had to write a difficult password and looked at the keyboard, "I can't explain why the password doesn't work, I'm pressing all the right keys", his face was the most comic thing I've ever seen 17:45:53 <andythenorth> once upon a time 17:46:04 <andythenorth> someone in our office aliased âsudoâ to âshutdown -h nowâ 17:46:18 <planetmaker> :D 17:46:20 <Wolf01> that's always the right thing to do 17:46:44 <Wolf01> if you aren't root, you must not do that thing 17:46:56 <planetmaker> hopefully sudo -> sudo shutdown -h now 17:47:32 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:47:41 <Alberth> ubuntus tend to have user commands for such events :p 17:48:12 <planetmaker> I'm sure it was a bsd like system andy talked about :P 17:49:15 <andythenorth> OS X 17:49:23 <planetmaker> yeah. bsd-like :P 17:49:26 <andythenorth> it was in retaliation for some keyboard key swapping iirc 17:49:30 <andythenorth> these things happen 17:49:48 <planetmaker> honestly, I probably wouldn't notice keyboard key swapping for a long time 17:50:17 <planetmaker> except if you moved f and / or j. Those are the keys with the small bump to find your way without looking 17:50:38 <Alberth> or until you make lots of typos :p 17:50:54 <planetmaker> well :) 17:51:01 <andythenorth> or if I remapped your keys in software 17:51:08 <planetmaker> that's more evil :) 17:51:31 <Wolf01> remapping a key to "ctrl + z" 17:51:57 <andythenorth> also 17:51:59 <andythenorth> what hap? 17:52:04 <andythenorth> in the world of ottd? 17:52:08 <andythenorth> Pikka bob is here? 17:52:18 <Pikka> only sometimes 17:52:24 <andythenorth> NARS 3 done? 17:52:26 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I immediately notice when they change the Y and Z on the keyboard that I use 17:52:41 <Pikka> just finished diseasles 17:52:47 <planetmaker> Rubidium, the key or the mapping? :) 17:52:48 <andythenorth> cabbages? 17:52:57 <Rubidium> planetmaker: *everything* 17:53:01 <Pikka> no wagons of any description yet 17:53:16 <Rubidium> fracking German computers ;) 17:53:25 * andythenorth wonders how much NARS 3 gets pillaged for Iron Horse 17:53:30 <planetmaker> :) 17:53:54 <glx> Rubidium: azerty is worse, you can't write proper french with it :) 17:54:01 <Pikka> Dan was telling me of his plans for forty seven different American Horse rosters 17:54:06 <andythenorth> 58 17:54:13 <andythenorth> 63 even 17:54:14 <planetmaker> the dutch keyboard layout actually is not that bad, but ... well :) azerty is much much worse ;) 17:54:16 <andythenorth> many horse 17:54:20 <Pikka> such horse 17:54:25 <andythenorth> fortunately we are limited by IDs <16k 17:54:28 <andythenorth> how handy 17:54:35 <andythenorth> unless I reused them :P 17:54:35 <planetmaker> took me like 10 minutes to type in my password on a machine with that frigging keyboard layout 17:54:39 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S 17:54:41 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the Dutch keyboard layout, or the layout that is used most often in the Netherlands (BIG difference) 17:54:41 <Pikka> si 17:55:03 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I meant Dutch. Not necessarily 'most used' (dunno which, I guess US) 17:55:11 <Pikka> I will get on with the elecketricks 17:55:13 * andythenorth writes some tests before writing code 17:55:16 <andythenorth> fancy 17:55:18 <andythenorth> TDD 17:55:19 <Pikka> and send it out for comments when locos are done 17:55:20 <andythenorth> not TTD 17:55:58 <Rubidium> planetmaker: http://www.goodtyping.com/teclatDUTok.png ? 17:56:30 <V453000> nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette. got this with https://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/1 photoshop-ttd-dos-noact.act - Photoshop palette DOS, no action colours (768 Bytes) Delete planetmaker, 2011-08-16 17:20 17:56:36 <V453000> is that possible? 17:56:41 <Rubidium> planetmaker: vs http://www.goodtyping.com/teclatUSok.png 17:57:20 <frosch123> i hate the enter key on us keyboards :) 17:57:24 <frosch123> i always type \ 17:57:34 <V453000> me uses that :D 17:57:40 <V453000> 104 key (with low enter) 17:57:59 <V453000> -> I have a cat picture on the \ key 17:58:02 <V453000> it is perfect 17:58:21 <Pikka> V453000, there's a grfcodec switch to tell it you don't care what it thinks of your palette. can that not be used through nmlc? 17:58:30 <planetmaker> yeah, frosch123, same here :) 17:58:37 <peter1138> My "Windows" key has a stylised duck on it... 17:58:39 <V453000> idk Pikka, devzone does it :D 17:58:57 <planetmaker> Pikka, no, that can't 17:59:33 <planetmaker> Pikka, "used through nml" also does not quite cut it. nml does not need grfcodec :) 17:59:39 <peter1138> You have to be careful with palettes. Some programs will "helpfully" remove colours that aren't in the image. 17:59:40 <frosch123> V453000: usally look for something like "disable palette opimisation" or similar 17:59:42 <Pikka> right 17:59:55 <Pikka> sorry :) 18:00:06 <planetmaker> nah, np :) 18:00:08 <V453000> frosch123: but where :D 18:00:14 <planetmaker> in photoshop? 18:00:25 <Pikka> did nmlc inherit grfcodec's list of allowable palettes, or does it only accept the proper ones? 18:00:26 <planetmaker> you're the photoshop user 18:00:27 <V453000> O_O 18:00:40 <andythenorth> V453000: how are you applying the palette? 18:00:43 <planetmaker> Pikka, it has its own definition of palettes. Imported from openttd's code iirc 18:00:45 <frosch123> V453000: i can tell you where to find it in gimp :) 18:01:02 <andythenorth> are you converting to indexed and then just saving png? 18:01:06 <andythenorth> or using save for web? 18:01:11 <V453000> andythenorth: image - mode - indexed image -> load the palette, save 18:01:23 <andythenorth> use save for web, load the palette there, see what the preview is 18:01:24 <V453000> hm didnt think of saving for web 18:01:25 <planetmaker> imported as in copy&paste 18:01:28 <andythenorth> your method should work 18:01:38 <andythenorth> but sfw gives you a better preview in case of fuckups 18:01:45 <andythenorth> sounds like a bad palette 18:01:47 <Pikka> "no action colours" isn't going to be the right palette, though 18:01:54 <andythenorth> my thought too 18:01:56 <Pikka> load the no action colours one, then load the "proper" one 18:02:08 <planetmaker> good spot, Pikka :) 18:02:33 <V453000> but what is the noact palette for then? 18:02:42 <planetmaker> V453000, for removing them from a sprite 18:02:46 <V453000> just to convert colours without act, but save in normal colours with everything? 18:02:48 <V453000> aha 18:02:50 <planetmaker> yup 18:02:56 <V453000> nice, did that already :D 18:03:05 <planetmaker> the final saved file must always be with the full palette 18:03:10 <V453000> aha 18:03:11 <V453000> didnt know 18:03:12 <V453000> thanks :) 18:03:28 <andythenorth> sounds like a useful palette :) 18:03:53 <peter1138> one-way road markers should've been on tile edges :p 18:04:14 <Pikka> http://i.imgur.com/IRdP98O.png <- av8 conversion palette :P 18:04:25 <frosch123> peter1138: signals should have been on tile edges? :p 18:04:30 <peter1138> That toO! 18:05:07 <V453000> 18:03:32 nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette. 18:05:08 <V453000> still :D 18:05:09 <V453000> :( 18:05:28 <Pikka> you broke it 18:05:32 <frosch123> open it with ttdviewer, and check how it looks 18:06:26 <V453000> animates 18:06:41 <V453000> well some things I got rid of 18:06:51 <V453000> fire/lighthouse is there 18:07:18 <V453000> and fizzy drink colour :D 18:08:31 <frosch123> well, if the image is correct, and no colours are swapped or something, you can resave with it 18:08:38 <frosch123> it will then always have a proper palette 18:09:07 <frosch123> ttdviewer does not check for an exact palette, it only uses a heuristic to decide which one is more likely, and then forces it :p 18:09:44 <V453000> I think it works now 18:09:57 <V453000> I opened my other sprites which work, and copypasted the thing in that image 18:10:13 <V453000> one of the fire cycle colours somehow remained, but got rid of that one manually 18:11:55 <V453000> trying again (: 18:12:02 <Sylf> making again 18:12:11 <planetmaker> palettes are a bitch ;) 18:12:34 <V453000> . 18:13:21 <Sylf> XD bunch of pure white pixel warnings 18:13:32 <V453000> oh fuck off :D forgot about white 18:13:42 <Sylf> but at least it built 18:14:17 <V453000> fixed whites locally 18:28:19 <V453000> I might try to draw at least URAN, VEHI and YETI icons 18:28:28 <V453000> will do now 18:28:34 <V453000> 5-X will still take a bit of time 18:28:41 <V453000> almost done though :) 18:29:10 <V453000> I think the icons are 10x10 18:29:38 <Sylf> lemme check 18:29:51 <V453000> I kind of checked already but please do :) cant hurt 18:31:25 <Sylf> yup, looks like that's it 18:33:04 <V453000> kayz, drawing nawo 18:33:07 <V453000> naow 18:42:46 <andythenorth> oopsie 18:42:50 * andythenorth broke the tests 18:45:43 <Alberth> quickly, throw them away so nobody sees it! 18:46:26 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 18:51:06 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 18:56:50 *** FLHerne_ [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:01:27 *** kiwibun_ [~smuxi@p5B37ED34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 19:02:13 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:12:11 <frosch123> how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones" 19:16:12 <andythenorth> humour 19:16:14 <andythenorth> in a game 19:16:18 <andythenorth> shameful 19:16:29 * andythenorth deletes things 19:16:31 <andythenorth> tests still pass 19:16:36 <andythenorth> clearly wasnât needed 19:16:50 <Jinassi> noob-choochoo-trainmaster 19:17:01 <frosch123> i was actually being serious :p 19:17:42 <andythenorth> I am agreeing 19:17:45 <andythenorth> in a very english way 19:17:50 <andythenorth> you should do it 19:17:52 <frosch123> hmm it makes referencing the settings harder though 19:18:09 <frosch123> maybe it should only be a descriptive hint in parentheses 19:18:51 <frosch123> "basic (only important settings), "advanced (most settings)", "expert/all (all including weird settings)" 19:19:37 <Jinassi> you peeps have a very specific humour 19:19:43 <Jinassi> comic sans then? :p 19:20:16 <Jinassi> i go back to my corner 19:20:18 *** Jinassi [~Jinassi@0001ec72.user.oftc.net] has left #openttd [] 19:20:30 <frosch123> dom casual is more classic :p 19:20:54 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [] 19:21:19 <Pikka> btw, andythenorth 19:21:42 <Pikka> "Or the British Trains grf, surely?" 19:21:46 <Pikka> totally can't tell. :) 19:22:11 *** FLHerne_ [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 19:22:29 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:27:37 <peter1138> Totally. 19:30:28 <andythenorth> what did I do now? 19:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S <- ? 19:35:48 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, no idea 19:36:00 <peter1138> tab-complete fail, i think. 19:37:42 <Pikka> you were inscrutable, andythenorth 19:37:49 <Pikka> can't tell if you're serious or not :) 19:38:13 <andythenorth> Iâd like to see it succeed 19:38:20 <andythenorth> I donât enjoy watching people fail 19:38:39 <Pikka> well, sure 19:38:48 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.40.221.106] has joined #openttd 19:39:05 <Pikka> and fair enough 19:39:43 <Pikka> how goes dark horse, btw? since Dan is already talking about moving on to americanish... 19:42:14 <frosch123> dark horse? you mean an american set needs equal amounts of dark/bright, male/female, hetero/homo/bi/a/para trains? 19:45:48 <Pikka> nope 19:46:08 <Pikka> dark horse isn't americanish, it's what comes before americanish :) 19:46:18 <V453000> I want to see a train with tits 19:46:33 <V453000> andythenorth: show me immediatele 19:46:35 <V453000> y 19:47:02 <andythenorth> no horsing 19:47:04 <andythenorth> right now 19:47:08 <andythenorth> je suis working 19:47:15 <andythenorth> horsing is parked 19:47:26 <andythenorth> also I have been busy cancelling christmas 19:47:46 <planetmaker> cancelling christmas, hm. Call it Easter instead? 19:48:53 <planetmaker> <frosch123> how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones" <-- sounds indeed less confusing than current names 19:49:15 <planetmaker> or the parentheses version even 19:55:03 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ps5yuueja?/ps5yuueja <- "weird" or "strange"? 19:56:34 <Taede> 'weird and wonderful' 20:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> weird and crazy 20:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "V would use these settings" 20:02:26 *** Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.189.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:17 <planetmaker> weird 20:10:16 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has joined #openttd 20:14:13 <Sylf> twoway_eol is still not in the gui anyway... 20:15:22 <planetmaker> Sylf, no path finder settings are in the GUI 20:15:33 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E994.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:15:34 <Sylf> true 20:15:55 <Sylf> so they're the beyond the expert settings? 20:16:17 <Sylf> mess with them at your own risk 20:16:19 <planetmaker> somewhat the reasoning is: PF settings are crucial and wrong settings can basically 'destroy' the PF from proper working. If you change them, you really should know what you do. And then you can also use the console 20:16:25 <planetmaker> basically yes 20:17:03 <frosch123> there are 3 pathfinder settings in the gui :p 20:17:13 <planetmaker> hm :) 90° turns 20:17:15 <frosch123> 6 in total under "routing" 20:17:29 <planetmaker> dang. you win :) 20:17:39 <frosch123> if you manage to write a proper description i would not mind adding more pathfinder settings of type bool 20:17:48 <frosch123> just do not offer the integer settings :p 20:17:59 <peter1138> Penalty settings! 20:18:12 <peter1138> Allow "expert" users to mess up their games! 20:18:24 <Sylf> :D 20:18:40 <planetmaker> settings level: basic, advanced, expert, mental asylum 20:19:14 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E994.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 20:19:15 <andythenorth> settings, xml editor 20:19:20 <andythenorth> do it the OS X way 20:19:27 <frosch123> which setting is it actually? 20:19:39 <frosch123> pf.reverse_at_signals? 20:19:57 <frosch123> pf.reserve_paths <- why is that even a setting? 20:20:34 <planetmaker> pf.twoway_red_eol or something 20:20:37 <planetmaker> or what you mean? 20:21:03 <Sylf> yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol 20:21:12 <Sylf> it's sad when I can type that loooking it up >_< 20:21:17 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E994.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:21:17 <Sylf> without* 20:21:30 <peter1138> As a solely path-signal user... har har! 20:21:54 <frosch123> hmm, so it is yapf only 20:22:01 <frosch123> what does npf do? 20:22:27 <andythenorth> also har har at 90â turns being banned 20:22:44 <peter1138> Also har har at andythenorth's feeble attempt at a ° symbol 20:22:49 <andythenorth> oh that again 20:22:52 <andythenorth> I should learn 20:23:02 * andythenorth is on the road again 20:23:12 <peter1138> Nah, your (sometimes incorrect) smart-quotes everywhere make up for it. 20:23:12 <andythenorth> going to a home out on the range 20:23:17 <andythenorth> thanks 20:23:18 <andythenorth> I do try 20:23:23 <andythenorth> or my client does 20:23:34 <peter1138> Yers, it looks distinctly automatic :-) 20:23:37 <frosch123> Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p 20:23:44 <andythenorth> hmm, canât write code to ZZ top :P 20:23:45 <Sylf> XD 20:24:03 <andythenorth> 90º turns very bad for ships 20:24:07 <andythenorth> if banned 20:24:13 <andythenorth> "just sayingâ 20:24:15 <V453000> just call it "make overflows work" 20:24:19 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:24:23 <V453000> that is what 80% of the people know it as :D 20:24:41 <Sylf> coop style overflow, that is 20:24:43 <frosch123> wut? i use overflow depots all the time, and they work fine 20:24:53 <V453000> probably bad ones :P 20:25:21 <Sylf> see, most people use PBS+forced depot overflows 20:25:29 <V453000> I noticed :) 20:25:38 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck 20:25:43 <peter1138> I don't use PBS, as I don't play TTDPatch. 20:25:49 <frosch123> i need servicing anyway, when playing with breakdowns 20:25:57 <V453000> .................... 20:26:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, only for trains 20:26:50 <frosch123> we could separate 90 degree turns for trains and ships :) 20:26:58 <planetmaker> aren't they? 20:27:00 <frosch123> more settings .) 20:27:09 <frosch123> planetmaker: funnily, no :p 20:27:15 *** kiwibun_ [~smuxi@p5B37ED34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:16 <V453000> or just make it always allowed for ships? 20:27:21 <V453000> what are the downsides there? 20:27:21 <frosch123> it's another of those: original/realistic settings :p 20:27:51 <frosch123> somewhen i want to add a setting with values "realistic" and "useful" 20:27:52 <V453000> I can imagine that some extremist might want to keep 90deg for trains 20:27:58 <peter1138> We should implement vehicle reversing instead. 20:28:36 <peter1138> Ship stuck? Reverse it out... 20:29:41 <frosch123> i have a patch for trains, it's in hgtrunk5 20:29:41 <planetmaker> frosch123, for ships we simply should ignore that setting. Every ship nearly can turn on the place it's located 20:29:46 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 20:30:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: but not instantanious 20:30:35 <planetmaker> doing so is a requirement for a license 20:31:00 <peter1138> Only if there's enough room :-) 20:31:06 <planetmaker> frosch123, not instantanious. But... good enough really. Like with a car turning on a road. But easier 20:31:22 <planetmaker> peter1138, it doesn't need much more than a circle with a diameter of the length of the boat 20:31:45 <peter1138> planetmaker, you obviously play with smaller ships than I see in ottd :) 20:32:05 <planetmaker> :) but even the big ocean liners *can* do so 20:32:19 <planetmaker> and they actually do so in harbours 20:32:42 <V453000> with or without sinking? :D 20:33:01 <planetmaker> without. it's easy 20:33:12 <frosch123> planetmaker: isn't that what towboats are for? 20:33:20 <frosch123> when ships cannot turn on their own? 20:33:58 <planetmaker> those are usually used to tow barges which have no motor at all 20:36:11 <FLHerne> Or to turn big ships in small spaces before all these vectored-thrust pod things came in? 20:36:51 <planetmaker> even without they could. In principle. But only *very* slowly 20:37:44 <planetmaker> so yes, big vessels without auxilary motors are a pain to turn :) 20:40:38 <Wolf01> 'night 20:40:45 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:47:11 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:47:57 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâŠ] 20:51:47 <andythenorth> with 90º turns off, ships take stupid routes 20:51:49 <andythenorth> or get stuck 20:52:08 <andythenorth> in rivers and canals 20:52:26 <andythenorth> itâs a bug afaict 20:52:30 <andythenorth> unless itâs a feature 20:53:22 <frosch123> i don't think ships can get stuck 20:53:42 <frosch123> they will turn 180° and then drive back 20:54:12 <andythenorth> I think Iâve seen it 20:54:21 <andythenorth> they fail to make a turn, continue up a different route 20:54:28 <andythenorth> and then lose the route to the next destination 20:54:32 <frosch123> the onlly annoyance is that they briefly report "ship lost" 20:54:45 <andythenorth> Iâm fairly certain they got too far from a bouy 20:54:54 <andythenorth> but I donât have a save to prove it :) 20:56:11 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:58:28 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E994.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #openttd [] 21:04:36 <fjb> If nobody has a save of it it didn't happen. 21:06:05 <FLHerne> You can trap them with carefully-timed landcaping 21:07:00 <FLHerne> Because they can only reverse direction when hitting land, so if they're on a diagonal you can trap them in a corner where it looks like they ought to be able to get out 21:18:17 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:21:08 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 21:34:47 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has joined #openttd 21:40:19 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0836D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p <-- that reminds me of "ttdpatch-style non-stop handling" or somesuch 21:42:23 <NGC3982> Coop is a Swedish grocery store chain. 21:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't Koopa like a villain in mario? 21:47:21 <frosch123> night 21:47:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f7443e5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:07:50 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0836D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:33 *** Progman [~progman@p57A186BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:48 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:c45d:5b79:1a5b:918d] has quit [Quit: .] 22:32:45 <andythenorth> bed 22:32:45 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 22:35:17 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:35:57 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 22:37:06 <argoneus> table 22:52:16 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:58:44 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 23:03:07 <argoneus> the inconsistency with planes loading is annoying 23:03:17 <argoneus> full load any cargo should mean full load any cargo 23:03:24 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:03:25 <argoneus> it shouldn't have "intuitive" special functions 23:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> or: full load should be able to specify which cargo 23:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you're really interested in the mail, just refit to mail only 23:05:25 <argoneus> yeah I read that on the forums too 23:05:30 <argoneus> of course I don't want to prioritize mail 23:05:51 <argoneus> but having an undeterministic function that looks the same, is called the same, but works differently for another vehicle 23:05:57 <argoneus> just feels like bad design 23:06:31 <argoneus> wouldn't it be possible to change just the string to "full load passengers"? 23:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're using the word "undeterministic" wrong 23:06:39 <argoneus> since there apparently is code "if vehicle is airplane" 23:06:54 <argoneus> well 23:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it does seem inconsistent 23:07:03 <argoneus> it can feel undeterministic for a player that doesn't know it's a special case 23:07:08 <argoneus> makes trains, works one way 23:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and no, the string cannot be changed 23:07:11 <argoneus> makes airplane, works another way 23:07:17 <argoneus> player is confused, why the same thing works differently 23:07:26 <argoneus> that's the definition of undeterministic, no? 23:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no 23:07:50 <argoneus> it's like throwing a red ball, it flies 23:07:57 <argoneus> then having a blue ball with all the same parameters, just being blue 23:07:59 <argoneus> and it doesn't fly 23:08:05 <argoneus> and you wonder why 23:08:23 <planetmaker> sounds 100% deterministic 23:08:41 <argoneus> okay, I'll replace it with "inconsistent" 23:08:46 <argoneus> you're right 23:08:53 <argoneus> the same blue ball will always do the same 23:08:56 <argoneus> it won't suddenly fly 23:09:14 <argoneus> arguing about semantics will not fix this issue, though :< 23:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the probability that a bowling ball spontaneously jumps of the ground is non-zero :p 23:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> *off 23:09:47 <argoneus> the probability my body suddenly re-materializes next to yours is non-zero too 23:10:32 <argoneus> zero and infinity are funny numbers :D 23:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't see any amount of arguing causing any change to that feature 23:10:54 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@187.58.245.102] has joined #openttd 23:10:58 <argoneus> so just changing the string is impossible? 23:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> a) infinity is not a number, b) there's more than one infinity 23:11:49 <argoneus> it is not a real number 23:12:08 <argoneus> and I never talked about b) 23:12:08 <argoneus> :< 23:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there are algebraic constructs that treat infinity like something you can do operations on 23:13:46 <argoneus> yes 23:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but calling those things "numbers" may be a bit of a stretch 23:13:58 <argoneus> you can extend real numbers with infinity and minus infinity 23:14:00 <argoneus> which is useful 23:14:40 *** fjb is now known as Guest307 23:14:41 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 23:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also extend the real or complex numbers with one type of infinity 23:15:10 <argoneus> trick question 23:15:12 <argoneus> what is 1/inf 23:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> which is used in some forms of projective geometry 23:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> or in elliptic curves 23:16:17 <argoneus> I wish I found math interesting :( 23:16:30 <argoneus> er 23:16:32 <argoneus> let me revise that 23:16:38 <argoneus> I wish I had the right mindset to understanding math 23:17:06 <argoneus> in high school it was mostly about drilling exercises 23:17:12 <argoneus> now it's about using my brain :( 23:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> elliptic curves are a fun thing 23:18:24 <argoneus> so far I only had linear algebra 23:18:30 <argoneus> so I have no idea what you are talking about 23:18:45 <argoneus> lines, planes, etc, sure 23:18:48 <argoneus> elliptic curves, nope 23:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> an elliptic curve is a function like "y^2=x^3-x-1" 23:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> or more general: "y^2=x^3+ax+b" 23:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which, if you plot it, is some wiggly thing that is symmetric to the x axis 23:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and what you can do with this is define an operation on two points on that curve: "A+B" is defined as the point that intersects with the elliptic curve if you draw a straight line between A and B, and then mirror that point on the x axis 23:21:58 *** Guest307 [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:22:29 <argoneus> what point? 23:22:31 <argoneus> when you have a line 23:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> every line you draw like this has 3 intersections with the curve, unless it is vertical, or A=B 23:23:42 <argoneus> ohh, like that 23:23:43 <argoneus> I get it now 23:23:52 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz 23:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> in the latter case the tangent is used 23:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the former case, an element called "O" is used, which represents "the poin in infinity" 23:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> this "O" happens to be the neutral element of this operation 23:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so "A+O=A" 23:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and if "A+B=O" then you can think of B=-A 23:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> which incidentally means that A and B are mirrored on the x axis 23:26:32 <argoneus> uhh 23:26:41 <argoneus> why do I feel like everyone here is a math/cs/physics major 23:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> because we're a protective group and drive out people who are not :p 23:27:30 <argoneus> protective in what sense? 23:27:35 <argoneus> you all seem like a bunch of nice people to me :< 23:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure why we still tolerate andy :p 23:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you clearly haven't met TB yet :p 23:29:44 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387A2A1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 23:30:36 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:34:27 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: totalbiscuit? :O 23:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> no 23:35:17 <argoneus> truebrein? 23:35:29 * argoneus wonders who this mysterious TB is and why I should meet him 23:36:39 <argoneus> aanyway nn my friends 23:39:18 *** shansen [~shansen@212.17.41.140] has joined #openttd