Log for #openttd on 18th November 2014:
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02:26:39  <mordant> Is there any articles on how to start and grow a network?
02:27:16  <mordant> I get bogged down in building junctions trying to keep my infrastructure well utilized and not duplicated for each different type of cargo
02:34:20  <Sylf> I'd say, seeing other players on a multiplayer server is one of the best way to learn
02:36:42  <mordant> do you have any recommendations of which server to watch?
02:37:50  <Sylf> any servers with a few companies already established should be good
02:38:01  <Sylf> my recommendation is too biased
02:38:19  <Sylf> (openttdcoop team member here)
02:38:50  <mordant> who cares about bias? I'm just trying to learn :p
02:39:03  <mordant> I'll try your suggestion, thank you
02:39:12  <Sylf> because there are many who don't agree with coop's building style :P
02:40:04  <mordant> really? I've read a lot of the coop's wiki and haven't seen anything odd about it.
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03:36:01  <Flygon> I ended up learning through trial and error
03:36:22  <Flygon> End up with 6 track trunklines
03:36:26  <Flygon> 4 pax, 2 freight
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08:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably more common than you think
08:36:59  <Pikka> all of my bridges in TTD are filled with explosives, for sure
08:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> west germany prepared its bridges near the border to east germany to take explosives, although the explosives themselves were stored in a nearby bunker
08:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> when the cold war ended and germany was reunited, they had trouble finding all the bunkers
08:38:03  <peter1138> Pikka, 32bpp 4x brick viaduct!
08:38:11  <__ln__> some finnish bridges are also equipped with "slots" for explosives
08:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> when they replaced a bridge here in the 70s, they also found that its pillars had stored loads of explossives that were not detonated in the last phase of WWII
08:39:08  <Pikka> good plan, peter1138
08:39:14  <Pikka> get on that!
08:39:18  <peter1138> ok!
08:39:27  <peter1138> How do I Blender?
08:39:34  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138! NewViaduct!
08:39:54  <peter1138> Born_Acorn! NewBorn_Acorn!
08:40:34  <Pikka> all good 32bpp graphics are made with 3dsm, anyway
08:40:56  <Pikka> where "all good 32bpp graphics" == pineapple and YETI.
08:41:26  <V453000> any drama I missed? :D
08:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> good old times
08:41:57  <peter1138> That's as maybe, but I don't have 3dsm.
08:42:56  <V453000> blender works fine if you know how to use it :P
08:43:01  <Pikka> yes
08:43:07  <Pikka> blend away
08:43:23  <peter1138> Also I don't have £3,100
08:43:25  <V453000> btw Pikka so far I chose stretching
08:43:31  <Pikka> shameful
08:43:48  <V453000>
08:43:53  <V453000>
08:43:56  <V453000> very visible on the balls
08:43:58  <Pikka> someone, probably me, should get on fixing up that diagonal speed patch
08:44:23  <Pikka> har har, stretched yeti dudes
08:44:30  <V453000> :)
08:44:31  <peter1138> Also it only runs on Windows? lol...
08:44:34  <V453000> just fat :P
08:44:51  <Pikka> they lose weight as they go around the corner :]
08:45:03  <Pikka> as do their hats
08:45:38  <Pikka> and the stretched steel balls D: oh my
08:45:41  <V453000> cant say I have a huge conflict with it so far
08:45:45  <V453000> lets see later
08:45:50  <V453000> can always change that :)
08:45:52  <Pikka> better to leave the gaps and work on the patch, imo ;)
08:46:00  <peter1138> That's what I said.
08:46:12  <V453000> then do work on the patch, I can always re-render easily :P
08:46:16  <V453000> this fits for me for now
08:47:11  <V453000> I cant help you with any patches anyway :P
08:47:35  <Pikka> I suppose I'll have to set up a build environment for openttd
08:47:36  <Pikka> again
08:47:59  <Pikka> actually last time I think it was ttdpatch, that's how long it's been
08:48:05  <peter1138> The game needs accurate subpositions :S
08:49:10  <Pikka> it's not fudgable? :D
08:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the game has "progress" substeps (256 per each vehicle step)
08:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but the vehicle steps need to be put closer together on diagonals
08:51:04  <Pikka> something like that
08:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> from 4px to 3px on – direction
08:51:25  <Pikka> no
08:51:47  <Flygon> Where're the OTTD svaes stored again?
08:51:53  <Pikka> I doubt that's right, Eddi
08:52:00  <Flygon> Transferring crap to a new computer again and I can't find them <_>
08:52:14  <Pikka> when you click save in the game, Flygon
08:52:20  <Pikka> doesn't it show the path at the top of the window?
08:52:23  <Flygon> Oh
08:52:30  <Flygon> Uh, lemme see if OTTD works in remote desktop
08:52:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: how else are you going to fix the distance between vehicles?
08:52:52  <Flygon> Dat lag
08:52:57  <V453000> yeah :|
08:52:59  <Flygon> Alright, thanks
08:53:07  <Flygon> Sorry, never ever used Documents for saves before x.x
08:53:19  <Flygon> In fact, I've always deliberately avoided Documents Xd
08:53:19  <V453000> you either space -- closer or // further apart :D
08:53:20  <Flygon> xD*
08:53:35  <Pikka> it's actually nothing to do with spacing
08:53:37  <Pikka> it's about speed
08:53:46  <Pikka> the vehicles travel too fast in the - and | views
08:54:02  <Flygon> Hahaha oh wow
08:54:11  <Pikka> that's what needs fixing, and it's much more complicated than 4 > 3. :)
08:54:11  <Flygon> This is so cool, I can copypasta from one computer to another with remote desktop
08:54:14  <Flygon> Anyway, sorry for the fuss
08:54:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: yes, because the steps are too big.
08:54:15  <V453000> mhm
08:54:47  <V453000> so basically you think making them travel with equal speed should fix this difference?
08:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: the steps need scaling by 1.41, 4>3 is 1.5
08:55:13  <Pikka> basically. which could indeed be achieved by making the stems smaller :)
08:55:26  <peter1138> Steps are not "4 pixels"
08:55:33  <peter1138> Steps are "1 internal unit"
08:55:42  <Pikka> and steps
08:55:53  <peter1138> For - and | that is 1 horizontal and 1 vertical.
08:56:08  <peter1138> Eh, assuming looking down from top of map :p
08:57:52  <Pikka> sooo.. how much more accurate to the subpositions need to get? another byte? :)
08:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the point i'm trying to make is, basically, the grid along which the vehicles move is a bit too crude
08:58:23  <peter1138> The only way to change that is to increase the resolution.
08:58:36  <V453000> MOAR PIXULZ
08:58:41  <peter1138> Not pixel resolution :p
08:58:45  <V453000> :P I know
08:59:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so either you use the "progress" substeps to fudge that, or you increase the actual 3D-coordinate resolution
09:00:16  <Eddi|zuHause> (which would also help with Bad_Brett's vehicle stepping issue)
09:00:36  <peter1138> "progress" is inaccurate. It gets fudged at signals, and direction affects it.
09:01:43  <peter1138> It's also only set for the front engine, as far as I can see.
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09:04:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it still wouldn't solve the vehicle spacing
09:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and the way direction affects it is probably wrong
09:04:25  <Pikka> there's a patch that nearly works
09:04:39  <Pikka> that's the obvious place to start, didn't you look into that one, peter1138?
09:08:54  <planetmaker> moin moin
09:09:26  <peter1138> Sure. I tried it, but I didn't look at the changes. It broke.
09:09:29  <V453000> hyhy :)
09:10:55  <V453000> yeti compiles like a madman :P
09:17:02  <andythenorth> lo
09:17:05  <andythenorth> also o/
09:19:02  <andythenorth> fudge all the things
09:19:03  <Pikka> hallo an andy
09:19:06  <Pikka> yes
09:19:10  <Pikka> fudge it all
09:19:37  <Supercheese> sounds like toyland
09:21:10  <Supercheese> Although the lack of chocolate in toyland always bugged me
09:21:55  <V453000> nuts haz it :P
09:22:49  <andythenorth> superchocolate
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09:28:03  <Supercheese> Oh dangit, I seem to have messed up the webtranslator again
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09:30:43  <Supercheese> Guess I'll need to revert the strings back to when things were working fine
09:34:11  <peter1138> " No newgrf is closed to addons "
09:34:22  <Pikka> innit though
09:34:27  <peter1138> *cough* oztrans *cough*
09:34:38  <peter1138> Disable ALL the things!
09:34:54  <Pikka> doesn't count. anyway, one could have made an "addon" grf for the canset
09:35:17  <Pikka> up until the point oztrans got wind of it and disabled his set if anyone used it.
09:35:20  <V453000> XD
09:35:42  <peter1138> hrh
09:35:54  <V453000> also mr oztrans doesnt exist anymore :P
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09:36:44  <peter1138> Octomom?
09:36:55  <peter1138> V453000, shame.
09:37:13  <V453000> ?
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09:40:18  <Pikka> octomom, apparently.
09:41:42  <peter1138> Yes, yes.
09:50:47  <andythenorth> where is cat?
09:51:35  <andythenorth> Pikka: you might as well add the canadian stuff now that you’ve started on NARS 3.0
09:55:44  <Pikka> I thought I did
09:55:52  <Pikka> candanian hudson at least. and jublee.
09:56:35  <Pikka> 32bpp canadian set?
09:56:55  <andythenorth> animated rivets
09:57:02  <Pikka> all of them
09:57:09  <andythenorth> animated drama
09:57:20  <Pikka> animated maple syrup
09:57:48  <V453000> Pikka: how long did it take for you to model one train engine? roughly?
09:58:14  <Pikka> depends how focussed I was, V
09:58:34  <peter1138> Pikka, add optional "running sounds" to 10cc.
09:58:35  <Pikka> also once you've done one you start using it as the base for the next, so it gets faster
09:58:49  <peter1138> Except instead of being train sounds, make it the trollolol song.
09:59:17  <Pikka> in the language of hitler, no, peter1138
09:59:36  <peter1138> You disappoint me very sprites.
10:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> make it say "wololo" if you change colours :p
10:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what i'd actually like is a short pipe whistle, instead of the long ones that steam engines use
10:03:53  * andythenorth needs to do sounds one day
10:04:03  <V453000> Pikka: days, hours? :D
10:04:07  <andythenorth> hopefully I can find an industry noise that is equally as annoying as the sawmill noise
10:04:34  <V453000> xd
10:04:59  <Pikka> V; a few hours if I focus. When I was really knuckling down on Pineapple I was doing about a vehicle a day.
10:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the explosion noise. always puts me off.
10:06:00  <Pikka> bewm.
10:06:26  <Pikka> my quarries in TaI made explosion noises, it upset a lot of people. :P
10:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
10:07:02  <V453000> sounds reasonable :)
10:07:21  <V453000> I was just wondering if I am missing something key or if detailed vehicle is simply a lot of work :P
10:07:36  <V453000> apparently the latter
10:07:44  <peter1138> It doesn't need to be highly detailed, does it?
10:08:06  <V453000> at least somewhat
10:08:06  <Pikka> it can be difficult to stay focussed, and complex shapes can be hard to get right if you're an old-school low-poly modeller. :P
10:08:15  <V453000> quite :)
10:08:16  <andythenorth> I liked the TaI explosions :P
10:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there's always some more detail you could add
10:08:45  <Pikka> personally I think TTD sprites are better if not too overdetailed. gotta be chibi and a little toylike. ;)
10:08:56  <peter1138> I guess there will always be people complaining the bogies are not quite the right shade...
10:09:04  <V453000> :)
10:09:48  <Pikka> got any locos done yet, V?
10:10:14  <V453000> sort of, very basic ones
10:10:19  <V453000> need to get it done, wont have time in the next week
10:10:35  <V453000> modern ones, figured simple shape with a texture is enuf :D
10:10:54  <peter1138> I kind of expected someone to have used 4x sprites to massively change the scale by now.
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10:11:22  <V453000>
10:11:23  <andythenorth> someone is somewhere
10:11:28  <peter1138> Much smaller scale, to have Realistic! lengths...
10:11:39  <andythenorth> pops up here every few months, someone doing it all as over-sized narrow gauge
10:11:43  <andythenorth> can’t remember who
10:11:48  <V453000> no company colours yet
10:11:52  <V453000> idk how to do that atm
10:12:48  <V453000> just basic model, unwrapped and texture painted on it
10:13:36  <peter1138> If I bought an engine that looked rusty when new... :p
10:13:50  <V453000> :P
10:14:01  <V453000> tis just to fake some details XD
10:14:04  <Pikka> not very realisms, V :P
10:14:11  <V453000> indeed :)
10:14:48  <peter1138> I still say they're a bit tall.
10:14:50  <V453000> (:
10:14:53  <V453000> this was rather quick however
10:15:07  <Pikka> too quick, it doesn't work
10:15:16  <peter1138> It worked second time.
10:15:20  <Pikka> it did
10:15:29  <V453000> byg file :P
10:15:31  <Pikka> ho ho that stretch
10:15:35  <Pikka> terrible
10:15:52  <V453000> :D
10:16:22  <V453000> go minionize tha patch :P
10:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> why do you have to render the empty one so many times?
10:16:46  <V453000> just bad approach so far Eddi
10:16:49  <peter1138> What's 3B/3D?
10:16:49  <V453000> am aware
10:16:58  <V453000> peter1138: IDs in the model grid
10:17:05  <V453000> ah you mean specifically
10:17:11  <peter1138> lol
10:17:14  <peter1138> Yes :p
10:17:23  <V453000> 3B 3D are sweets
10:17:26  <peter1138> Ahhh
10:17:26  <V453000> 3F is toys
10:17:49  <Pikka> why does 61 sprite 6 say "eti" instead of "yeti"? ;)
10:18:00  <peter1138> 31 looks like toilet paper :S
10:18:06  <V453000> idk Pikka
10:18:09  <V453000> peter1138: it is :)
10:18:13  <peter1138> o
10:18:44  <peter1138> Implementing custom shaders for the refraction of 05 will be fun ;)
10:19:14  <V453000> yeah thats quite bad in general
10:20:21  <peter1138> Too much realism overall.
10:20:34  <V453000> noted, will try harder
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10:21:36  <andythenorth> so
10:21:41  <andythenorth> minecraft has happened
10:22:07  <Eddi|zuHause> before or after it was sold to microsoft?
10:22:53  <Pikka> someone ought to make a minecraft -> newgrf converter, that would be far easier than me learning how to draw and code newgrfs.
10:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> cubicles!
10:24:18  <peter1138> Happened?
10:25:24  <andythenorth> this weekened
10:25:26  <andythenorth> weekend *
10:25:46  * andythenorth managed to avoid minecraft entirely until now
10:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the kids dragged you into it?
10:26:06  <andythenorth> yup
10:26:16  <andythenorth> turns out to be highly addictive for a 4.5 year old
10:26:24  <andythenorth> very much tantrums when he can’t do it
10:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i can imagine :p
10:26:39  <Pikka> as a mishmash of incompatible and half-baked features, minecraft is even better than openttd. :)
10:26:44  <andythenorth> so when are we converting openttd to cubicles?
10:26:50  <andythenorth> also mineccraft is so buggy
10:26:57  <andythenorth> it’s almost as though they just don’t care :)
10:27:01  <Pikka> well
10:27:04  <andythenorth> bugs are features
10:27:10  <Pikka> microsoft owns it now, so all that will change :)
10:30:19  <andythenorth> can we sell ottd to microsoft?
10:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> unlikely
10:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause> with a legal status of "we don't know" and a business model of "give it away for free"...
10:36:27  <argoneus> have you guys ever had an exam
10:36:37  <argoneus> where you needed X points, but got X-1 points, thus fail?
10:37:25  <Pikka> study harder next time, innit.
10:37:33  <argoneus> there is no next time :D
10:37:35  <argoneus> D:*
10:40:11  <andythenorth> have I ever had an exam?
10:40:13  <andythenorth> hmm
10:40:58  <Pikka> what, never?
10:41:31  <argoneus> Pikka: well
10:41:39  <argoneus> there's a "repair" test in january
10:41:44  <argoneus> but at this point I'm not sure if I can do it
10:41:50  <argoneus> and january is far and I'll forget it by then
10:43:56  <Pikka> can't be that important, then.
10:44:07  <argoneus> what can't be important?
10:44:13  <peter1138> The exam.
10:44:39  <argoneus> why wouldn't it be important? ;o
10:45:01  <andythenorth> oh yes I had some exams
10:45:03  <andythenorth> I remember now
10:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> if you forget it, it wasn't important
10:45:09  <andythenorth> I killed some of them
10:45:12  <andythenorth> some of them killed me
10:45:26  <andythenorth> one day I decided I didn’t want to do exams any more
10:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i never failed an exam. but i failed an interview once.
10:46:06  <argoneus> andythenorth: are you a bachelor?
10:46:29  <andythenorth> you mean degree-wise?
10:46:36  <andythenorth> not marriage-wise?
10:47:04  <argoneus> well
10:47:11  <argoneus> at what day did you decide you don't want to do exams
10:47:29  <andythenorth> in my case, 3 years before the last one I did :P
10:47:36  <andythenorth> patience grasshopper
10:48:09  <argoneus> so you did get an undergrad?
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10:56:55  <andythenorth> yes
10:57:03  <argoneus> well that's something then
10:57:08  <argoneus> I only have high school education atm
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10:57:42  <Pikka> ho ho, what kind of loser doesn't even have a bachelor's degree? :)
10:58:00  <andythenorth> naughty Pikka
10:58:13  <argoneus> me :<
10:58:26  <Pikka> (me neither)
10:58:42  <argoneus> Pikka: how old are you?
10:58:49  <Pikka> old enough :)
10:59:08  <andythenorth> he’s a child of Thatcher probly
10:59:19  <Pikka> not literally, andythenorth
10:59:20  <andythenorth> it’s the stolen milk, damaged his brain
10:59:51  <__ln__> a bachelor's degree is the minimum requirement for ESA's astronaut training
11:01:46  <Pikka> actually, until I was in my mid twenties, my official level of education was "did not complete year 10". :) very misspent youth.
11:02:08  <andythenorth>
11:02:09  <argoneus> and now you are the CEO of openttd
11:02:13  <andythenorth> ^^ too bouncy
11:02:23  <andythenorth> the rear sprocket, the angle is too acute
11:02:26  <andythenorth> it snags the tracks
11:02:35  <andythenorth> so they bounce off the teeth
11:02:54  <__ln__> andythenorth: i pasted this yesterday but you weren't online:
11:02:55  <peter1138> Bad feature.
11:02:58  <Pikka> terrible. maybe it's a test, you're supposed to redesign it.
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11:05:33  <andythenorth> maybe
11:05:37  <andythenorth> shameful
11:05:52  <andythenorth> child said the other day
11:06:05  <andythenorth> “why doesn’t Lego come already made?  Why do you have to build it?"
11:06:10  <andythenorth> moral decline
11:06:23  <Pikka> absolutely
11:06:24  <andythenorth> proof that everything is definitely getting worse since the dawn of time
11:06:31  <andythenorth> must have been awesome in the year dot
11:06:37  <andythenorth> highest possible moral standards
11:06:43  <andythenorth> everyone left their door unlocked
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11:08:12  <Pikka> they only had locks so they could leave them unlocked, right.
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11:08:56  <andythenorth> proves the point
11:09:00  <andythenorth> people round here are lovely
11:09:05  <andythenorth> they’d do anything for you
11:09:13  <andythenorth>
11:09:34  <andythenorth> etc
11:09:45  <Pikka> si
11:11:20  * andythenorth stops before it’s politics
11:11:24  <andythenorth> and therefore kban
11:12:01  <SpComb> someone doesn't understand lego .(
11:13:44  <andythenorth> just someone?
11:14:40  <Pikka> politics are fun though
11:14:47  <Pikka> down with this sort of thing. :)
11:15:18  <peter1138> Prebuilt Lego is like prebuilt road or rail layouts in OpenTTD.
11:15:26  <peter1138> You wouldn't copy & paste Lego!
11:15:34  <peter1138> You wouldn't steal a car!
11:18:00  <Pikka> might do :o
11:18:21  <argoneus> does lego have block signals
11:18:35  <Pikka> lego only has block signales
11:18:38  <Pikka> and signals
11:20:39  <andythenorth> cylinder signals
11:20:43  <andythenorth> snot signals
11:21:01  <peter1138> Lego has actual electricity!
11:21:07  <Pikka> I do like a bit of snot
11:21:08  <peter1138> Motors! Lights!
11:21:19  <peter1138> Although probably they don't do that stuff anymore...
11:21:33  <peter1138> It used to work for a few days and then never again.
11:21:49  <Pikka> all the computers at uni have the mindstorms software on them, I don't know who actually uses it though.
11:22:05  <peter1138> And it was a major cause of house fires, due to being the only thing that ever used 9v batteries, beside smoke detectors.
11:22:31  <andythenorth> and battery chargers
11:23:03  <peter1138> I have a 9v rechargable. It's useless.
11:23:25  <andythenorth> takes hours
11:23:33  <peter1138> 8.4v indeed...
11:23:43  <andythenorth> also lego do motors in vast quantities now
11:23:46  <andythenorth> so many motors
11:23:53  <andythenorth> makes it less fun when the batteries are dead
11:24:05  <andythenorth> motorised rivets
11:25:28  <andythenorth> porridge should be tastier
11:25:37  <Pikka> it is
11:25:53  <andythenorth> with bacon?
11:26:26  <andythenorth> this is no salt, no sugar, no golden syrup
11:26:29  <andythenorth> no bananas
11:26:30  <andythenorth> no bacon
11:26:35  <peter1138> Meccano motors were worse, because they used infinitesimally thin scraps of plastic to hold it all together.
11:27:13  <peter1138> So you built it all up, turn it on, and the machine shredded itself to pieces. And then the battery went flat.
11:28:16  <andythenorth> couldn’t get on with meccano
11:28:18  <andythenorth> seemed tedious
11:28:52  <andythenorth> all the limitations of a grid system, all the faff of doing nuts and bolts, no upside
11:31:35  <peter1138> It's useful for repairing things about the house...
11:32:00  <andythenorth> can you weld it?
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11:37:46  <peter1138> Possibly...
11:37:48  <peter1138> Hmm, Windows Live Messenger finally gone, or just my system playing up?
11:37:49  <andythenorth> is gradual processing good?
11:37:54  <andythenorth> should FIRS do it?
11:38:08  <Pikka> didn't windows live messenger go about three years ago?
11:38:26  <Pikka> I quite like it, andythenorth
11:38:27  <peter1138> Officially, but the servers were still there and there were still people on it.
11:38:37  <Pikka> whether that means FIRS should do it or not I don't know.
11:38:42  <peter1138> 3rd party clients still worked with it.
11:39:09  <andythenorth> the problem is
11:39:13  <andythenorth> how much to process?
11:39:19  <V453000> everything, just over time
11:39:20  <andythenorth> you can end up chasing a moving target
11:39:27  <andythenorth> V453000: at what rate?
11:39:37  <V453000> YETI processes 10% of currently waiting cargo per 256 ticks
11:39:41  <V453000> works great
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11:40:09  <V453000> creates a buffer of a supply, when you deliver more, it produces more, when you deliver less, it produces less
11:40:20  <andythenorth> so same as delivering 10% of the cargo to an instantly producing industry
11:40:26  <andythenorth> except with more faff?
11:40:34  <V453000> yeah
11:40:34  <andythenorth> moar trains
11:40:43  <andythenorth> so yak-shaving?
11:40:44  <V453000> it is just generally nicer, not a big functional change
11:40:49  <Pikka> TaI used to try and balance out the processing so the industry didn't run out. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with pineapples yet
11:41:00  <Pikka> but I'm thinking of doing it next, I need a good industry set to play with ;)
11:41:10  <V453000> :)
11:41:22  <V453000> how dare you, go YETI :P
11:41:33  <andythenorth> there are no good industry sets
11:42:42  <Pikka> I have been, but I don't like the yeti dudes mechanic much. :) having only one raw material used by so many industries and having all the chains so interlinked, it somehow doesn't suit my playstyle. ;)
11:42:59  <V453000> :)
11:43:13  <V453000> it requires a good network yes :P
11:44:09  <andythenorth> FIRS basic temperate is maybe the only decent thing I’ve played recently
11:44:24  <andythenorth> heart of darkness seems ok, but has way too many useless industries
11:44:28  <peter1138> I played... default, recently.
11:44:55  <Pikka> pineapple industries will be a bit default+, like TaI was
11:45:01  <andythenorth> maybe I should play TaI
11:45:07  <andythenorth> it’s just PBI renamed?
11:45:11  <Pikka> pretty much
11:45:26  <V453000> default+ is always nice
11:45:29  <Pikka> there were plans but they never got implemented
11:45:58  <andythenorth> plans are for mice
11:46:07  <peter1138> TaI is still nice.
11:46:31  <andythenorth> I played a lot of PBI
11:46:37  <andythenorth> because it is improved gameplay
11:47:03  <andythenorth> also not too big
11:48:59  <Pikka> needs more 32bpp
11:49:01  <Pikka> and supplies
11:49:29  <andythenorth> one dubious feature
11:49:32  <andythenorth> one BAD FEATURE
11:49:45  <andythenorth> you’re allowed one more under quota rules
11:50:09  <Pikka> stockpiling and gradual processing is a bad feature according to some people
11:50:57  <andythenorth> well
11:50:58  <andythenorth> yes
11:51:23  <andythenorth> also anything requiring text handling
11:51:30  <andythenorth> so all things that need explained in industry window
11:51:39  <andythenorth> and all things that need explained in fund-industry menu
11:51:51  <Pikka> I will avoid text wherever possible
11:51:52  <horazont> Ill just throw ECS into the discussion and see what happens
11:52:04  <andythenorth> I want to remove the text in FIRS
11:53:44  <horazont> wee, FIRS looks heavier than ECS
11:54:42  <andythenorth> yes, it weights at least 10KG
11:54:51  <horazont> moar cargoes
11:54:58  <Pikka> regearing
11:55:23  <andythenorth> I should add a regearing factory to FIRS
11:55:26  <andythenorth> that would fuck with them
11:55:34  <Pikka> yes
11:56:18  <andythenorth> then NARS 2.5 can ‘have’ regearing
11:56:18  <peter1138> :D
11:56:49  <V453000> XD
11:58:22  <Pikka> except nothing will refit, unless you give it a cargo class ;)
11:59:06  <V453000> universal wagons might :)
11:59:07  <andythenorth> “bug reports to Pikka", problem solved
11:59:13  <Pikka> as usual
12:00:07  <andythenorth> I should make FIRS faster
12:00:55  <Pikka> how do you make firs faster
12:00:56  <Pikka> ?
12:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause> more power!
12:01:38  <V453000> vacuum tube!
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12:03:51  <andythenorth> compiling
12:03:56  <andythenorth> then I can add more bad features
12:04:04  <andythenorth> then the compile will be slower again
12:04:09  <andythenorth> and then I can stop
12:04:16  <V453000> YETI 0.1.0 lives XD
12:05:07  <andythenorth> :)
12:05:19  <Pikka> what does it do?
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12:07:27  <horazont> on the one hand, FIRS looks great, but on the other it seems to be even more complex. also the FIRS economy doesn’t have these fancy dock-style industries :(
12:09:36  <V453000> Pikka: everything
12:10:10  <andythenorth> horazont: the FIRS economy is totally stupid
12:10:11  <andythenorth> don’t use it
12:10:14  <andythenorth> it’s just for foamers
12:10:45  <V453000> "change it or stfu" ?:P
12:11:02  <andythenorth> poll says I can't
12:11:19  <horazont> what are foamers?
12:11:28  <andythenorth> V453000 is a foamer
12:11:39  <horazont> well that’s not a helpful explanation
12:12:06  <V453000> I dont understand either :P
12:12:42  <andythenorth>
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12:16:18  <peter1138> FUZxxl, "Please do not abbreviate OpenTTD to OTTD. OpenTTD is an abbreviation already." < Lies
12:16:59  <andythenorth> can’t get the staff
12:17:10  <FUZxxl> peter1138: Isn't it an abbreviation for “Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe?”
12:17:25  <andythenorth> no
12:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure andythenorth is the biggest foamer of all, otherwise he wouldn't be so foaming about foamers
12:17:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: rumbled
12:17:37  <andythenorth> no argument
12:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like all the politicians who are so angry about gay people that later turn out to be gay themselves
12:18:15  <FUZxxl> Are there more formers in the US than in Europe?
12:18:28  <FUZxxl> *foamers
12:18:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: but I’ve been through a treatment program to correct my foamer tendencies
12:19:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it worked :p
12:19:16  <Pikka> repeat after me, "omg who cares it's just a train".
12:19:16  <V453000> XD
12:21:02  <planetmaker> <andythenorth> it’s just for foamers <-- hehe. And as such it's a good red herring. Just keep it and they can foam about what you don't care and they will still be grateful :)
12:21:06  <andythenorth> yes but what kind of train?
12:21:15  <andythenorth> and what kind of dynamic brake blister does it have?
12:22:09  <andythenorth> and is that livery historically accurate?
12:23:19  <Pikka> Being able to count the wheels on a steam engine basically makes you autistic. On the other hand, being able to tell the difference between a 1983 holden commodore and 1984 holden commodore by the slight difference in the shape of the tail lights? Perfectly normal and indeed admirable blokey knowledge.
12:23:59  <andythenorth> batting averages...
12:24:27  <andythenorth> also why is there red on me?
12:24:30  <andythenorth> tastes like blood
12:24:43  <planetmaker> scratching your head too much?
12:25:16  <Pikka> 99.94, andythenorth
12:25:40  <andythenorth> baked bean injury
12:25:42  <andythenorth> easily done
12:25:54  <Pikka> every australian knows that one, Little Johnny even wanted to put it on the citizenship test.
12:26:42  <andythenorth>
12:26:50  <andythenorth> is all I’m saying
12:27:11  <andythenorth> born where I come from, and with approximately the standard attitude for those parts
12:27:28  <andythenorth> even looks vaguely like me, perhaps we’re related :P
12:27:59  <Pikka> they're all related where you come from, aren't they? ;)
12:29:13  <andythenorth> my friend who worked in the hospital there said yes
12:29:41  <andythenorth> hmm, my great-great-great-great-something kept the tollgate where Larwood was born
12:29:53  <andythenorth> fascinating digressions
12:29:56  <andythenorth> back to foamers?
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12:32:07  <Pikka> foam to backers
12:32:30  <Pikka> oh look
12:32:31  <Pikka> text
12:32:34  <Pikka> in YETI
12:32:35  <Pikka> shameful
12:32:40  <andythenorth> urgh
12:32:49  <andythenorth> no partial compiling for him
12:33:54  <V453000> XD
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12:45:10  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the long part is our use of nfs which tremendously slows down pushing large files. With a hot .nmlcache the compile takes 40 seconds ;)
12:45:35  <andythenorth> for yeti?
12:45:36  <andythenorth> :o
12:45:37  <planetmaker> yes
12:45:51  <andythenorth> that is fairly spectacular
12:45:53  <planetmaker> look at the log times from a 'push' type build
12:46:05  <planetmaker> (not releases, there I trash the cache and build from scratch)
12:46:29  <planetmaker> which then takes 80 minutes
12:47:41  <planetmaker> and well, yes. frosch build a c module for nmlc which encodes and caches the real sprites. pretty fast.
12:56:30  <V453000> NUTS 0.7.5 lives =D
12:56:39  <V453000> tried uploading by musa, seems it worked :D
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13:01:57  <peter1138> Now you can update the release thread and everyone can complain!
13:03:40  <V453000> OR I can not give a fuck about any forums? :)
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13:10:09  <peter1138> They're useful for trolling.
13:10:51  <V453000> I dont think I need to continue making an idiot of myself in the nuts thread anymore
13:11:02  <V453000> similarly with yeti
13:11:09  <V453000> nothing constructive comes out of it anyway
13:14:33  <andythenorth> just get yourself banned
13:14:34  <andythenorth> easier
13:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause> make your own forum and only allow people that are registered and posted at least once to download any files
13:16:08  <andythenorth> make a broken wiki
13:16:13  <andythenorth> Pikka can lend you his
13:16:21  <Pikka> I can
13:16:26  <V453000> XD
13:16:28  <Pikka> maybe I did, how could one tell?
13:16:41  <V453000> one suggestion better than another
13:17:23  * andythenorth hasn’t made any newgrfs for ages
13:17:33  <andythenorth> today is chores, and minecrafr
13:17:42  <andythenorth> minecrafg
13:17:45  <andythenorth> minecrafy
13:18:16  <andythenorth> the main problem is that pikka has not made a GS yet :(
13:18:18  <Pikka> openttd
13:18:22  <Pikka> well
13:18:29  <Pikka> my rates are very reasonable :)
13:18:40  <Pikka> and I have an idea for one :)
13:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the most openttd-y thing i did in minecraft was connect my farm and two villages with an electric rail line
13:20:36  <V453000> I made a proper cave troll railway system XD
13:20:41  <V453000> redstone ftw
13:21:28  <andythenorth> btw
13:21:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i've not done a lot with redstone yet, just a "go" and "change direction" button for the rail line
13:21:42  <andythenorth> I think you OpenTTD guys should be seriously worried
13:21:50  <andythenorth> minecraft has a chance of becoming popular
13:21:54  <andythenorth> it has underground building
13:21:56  <Eddi|zuHause> *gasp*
13:21:59  <V453000> XD
13:22:01  <V453000> XD
13:22:01  <V453000> XD
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13:22:21  <andythenorthcraft> and it’s true 3D
13:22:29  <andythenorthcraft> which is what players want now
13:22:31  <V453000> can rotate views :0
13:22:33  <andythenorthcraft> it might become truly popular
13:22:40  <andythenorthcraft> if openttd was true 3d, and more modern
13:22:44  <andythenorthcraft> it would have lots more players
13:23:06  <andythenorthcraft> like WoW
13:23:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never played WoW
13:23:43  <andythenorthcraft> if you’d only listen to players’ suggestions, you could be a lot more successful and make a lot more money
13:24:43  <andythenorthcraft> players know best
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13:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we'd have a fully simulated stock market, industry development, research, city development, everybody's favourite signal behaviour... by now
13:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and those are only the "nice" suggestions
13:30:54  <planetmaker> we also would have undo-knobs, a self-playing game which copy&pastes its previous constructions everywhere ;)
13:31:54  <peter1138> Isn't copy & paste client side anyway?
13:32:05  <andythenorthcraft> stock market was fun in railroad tycoon
13:32:12  <andythenorthcraft> but that game was misnamed, at least by v3
13:32:33  <andythenorthcraft> should have been called ‘Stock Market Manipulation Tycoon, with arbitrary side-game of building trains'
13:33:00  <andythenorthcraft> the main tactics were pump and dump, corporate raiding, and short selling
13:36:16  <planetmaker> peter1138, not the current incarnation. But it has a delibarate server-side part
13:36:28  <planetmaker> the first versions were client-side only
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13:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "speculation" is kind of pointless in a game where you can arbitarily go back to a previous point in time and change your estimation
13:41:37  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, stock market is the feature i hate the most in RRT
13:41:39  <andythenorthcraft> I think we call that “cheating” :D
13:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like in CIV where you attack someone repeatedly until you win
13:43:01  <Pikka> save scumming is what we call that. :P
13:43:53  <andythenorthcraft> how else do you play Doom?
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13:56:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a lot trickier to do in Civ4 or 5 with saved random seed
13:59:40  <planetmaker> but also there... just attack in a different order :)
14:03:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but even then you run into the trouble that the loading times are orders of magnitude higher than in civ 1 or 2
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14:18:05  <andythenorthcraft> just managed to drive through the scenery in Euro Truck Simulator
14:18:09  <andythenorthcraft> a lovely blue sky
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16:07:27  <argoneus> wow
16:07:43  <argoneus> I emailed the teacher about one of the exercises from the exam I failed, explained to him how I meant my solution
16:07:56  <argoneus> and he gave me 2 points out of 3 for that exercise for "using the wrong definition"
16:07:59  <argoneus> so now I have 16 and all is well
16:08:02  <argoneus> based
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16:13:53  <lastmikoi> so, 14 was wrong and 16 is well ?
16:14:04  <andythenorth> hmm
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16:14:08  <andythenorth> so much to minecraft
16:14:17  * andythenorth is late to that party
16:14:20  <argoneus> lastmikoi: yes
16:14:22  <argoneus> you need 15+ to pass
16:14:32  <andythenorth> in my degree
16:14:35  <lastmikoi> ...
16:14:40  <andythenorth> the boundaries are steps of 10
16:14:47  <andythenorth> so 70/100 was first
16:14:58  <andythenorth> but 69 is rounded up to 70, for benefit of doubt
16:15:03  <andythenorth> and 68 is rounded up to 69
16:15:10  <andythenorth> and 67.5 is rounded up to 68
16:15:13  <andythenorth> very handy :P
16:15:40  <lastmikoi> argoneus: that feels wrong, but hey.
16:15:45  <argoneus> lastmikoi: why is it wrong
16:16:05  <lastmikoi> Well, the exam should be 50% harder, in order to use 10/20 as a pass-mark
16:16:27  <argoneus> it's not passing the course
16:16:30  <argoneus> it's just a midterm
16:16:33  <argoneus> which you have to pass either way
16:16:39  <lastmikoi> mhh, I see
16:18:04  <lastmikoi> Being french, I'm more accustomed to see 10/20 as a pass-mark; But this system seems to get worse once in higher degrees, i.e. they tell you that you pass without problem but once you actually seek opportunities they only accept >15/20
16:18:56  <lastmikoi> (One of my friends has had to move to Canada in order to finish his PhD because of this very phenomenon)
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17:05:21  <andythenorth> hmm
17:05:33  <andythenorth> the total lack of forum comments on Iron Horse is a good thing, right?
17:12:40  <frosch123> i wonder when fs catches up with forums on silly posts
17:15:33  <planetmaker> 6171?
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17:25:04  <Alberth> he, yeti added a lot of new strings
17:31:36  <V453000> did. :)
17:31:44  <andythenorth> 6171 is interesting
17:31:56  <andythenorth> I am shocked that the pathfinder requires computation
17:32:12  <andythenorth> in fact I’m dismayed
17:32:17  <frosch123> it's not the pathfinder, but the signal in the depot
17:37:33  <Marshy> Andy, nobody has any complaints :)
17:37:38  <Marshy> Me included, great set
17:38:39  <MTsPony> :)
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18:19:12  <andythenorth> hmm
18:19:17  <andythenorth> so much discussion on max loan :P
18:22:08  <Alberth> they needed several pages before concluding the economic model is broken :)
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18:57:18  <andythenorth> there’s a model?
18:57:20  <andythenorth> I dunno
18:57:29  <andythenorth> words are funny
18:57:52  <andythenorth> but I always think of a model as being something constructed intentionally, as a representation of something
18:57:58  <andythenorth> rather than by accident :P
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19:01:32  <Alberth> :)
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19:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> "The swiss office where telecommunication surveillance requests are handled was decorated with a GDR flag"
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19:15:47  <planetmaker> well. And the bridges to Germany were all fitted with TNT in the foundations :)
19:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i've said this before, that's not surprising at all
19:16:57  <argoneus> also the slaves making german tanks
19:16:59  <argoneus> broke the tanks on purpose
19:17:11  <argoneus> so they would break down easily
19:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> well, in the beginning of the war, the tanks had way too high quality
19:18:25  <planetmaker> 'too high quality'?
19:18:42  <frosch123> yeah, they got stolen all the time
19:18:56  <Eddi|zuHause> as in: there's no point in making a tank that lasts a year, when it gets shot down after a few days
19:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> rather than make 1 tank that lasts 100 days, make 100 tanks that last 1 day
19:21:16  <andythenorth> I am starting to think that is the correct approach to newgrfs also
19:21:18  <NGC3982> Why is there no point in making a tank that lasts a year?
19:21:35  <NGC3982> If i did not loose the explanation in the context somehwere.
19:21:51  <andythenorth> boom
19:21:58  <andythenorth> then no more tank
19:22:20  <andythenorth> waste of resources
19:22:23  <planetmaker> :)
19:23:33  <FLHerne> They had that with V2s, too
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19:23:40  <FLHerne> And the early jets
19:24:16  <FLHerne> Better than anything else individually, but cost too much to produce in useful numbers
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19:25:15  <Wolf01> hello
19:25:40  <Wolf01> cat found, is in the box
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19:35:10  <Alberth> hi hi
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19:37:37  <andythenorth> cat search concluded
19:39:21  <V453000> results?
19:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> miau.
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19:41:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "Mienz und Maunz die beiden Katzen/erhoben drohend ihre Tatzen/miau mio, miau mio/der Vater hat's verboten!"
19:43:57  <Eddi|zuHause>
19:48:46  <andythenorth> “I need a charting library that includes IE 7 and IE 8 support"
19:48:50  <andythenorth> is a very sad problem to have
19:49:36  <frosch123> can i have ie6 support?
19:49:44  <andythenorth> no
19:49:52  <andythenorth> unless it comes for free with VML :P
19:50:03  <planetmaker> XML? :P
19:50:44  <Wolf01> I'm sorry about that, IE6-7-8 is a bad disease
19:51:13  <Eddi|zuHause> is the next one also called IE 10?
19:51:34  <Wolf01> I don't think so, they are catching up quickly
19:51:41  <Wolf01> at least on standards
19:52:33  <andythenorth> meh, can’t use a python svg library server side :(
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19:54:53  <frosch123> they certainly cannot keep up with ff and ch version numbers
19:54:58  <frosch123> though i think they slowed down
19:56:49  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:54  <andythenorth> maybe raphael.js
19:57:11  <andythenorth>
19:58:08  <andythenorth> hmm IE 7 is so fun to use :P
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20:02:47  <andythenorth> hmm
20:02:48  <andythenorth> well
20:03:04  <andythenorth> svg newgrfs? o_O
20:04:19  <Alberth> easy to make several zooms
20:04:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth, would be no issue to use with nmlc
20:05:15  <planetmaker> or I assume it would work
20:05:40  <andythenorth> I have no fricking idea how svg works yet :)
20:05:42  <andythenorth> but eh
20:05:52  <andythenorth> I just made a branch to learn, nothing to do with ottd though :)
20:07:25  <Alberth> just a set of drawing primitives with coordinates, stacked in an xml tree
20:07:51  <Alberth> where the big fun is that you can change the tree to change the drawing :p
20:08:32  <andythenorth> presumably it can be rasterised to a bitmap too
20:08:35  <andythenorth> trivially
20:08:52  <Alberth> not really trivially
20:09:14  <Alberth> at least we have a lot of trouble to make an animation out of it :)
20:12:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27063 /trunk/src (3 files) (2014-11-18 20:12:42 UTC)
20:12:49  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6172]: Some lists did not use natural string sorting.
20:20:58  <Alberth> ugh, still glitchy graphics :(
20:27:40  <andythenorth> hmm, all plotting libaries look about the same :P
20:27:45  <andythenorth> nothing has changed since 1987
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20:32:21  <Alberth> machines got a bit faster
20:32:31  <Alberth> we got more colours
20:32:45  <Alberth> that's it mostly :p
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20:34:05  <planetmaker> :D
20:34:31  <planetmaker> we got renders since then :P
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20:36:03  <frosch123> i think povray 1 is about 1987 :)
20:36:17  <frosch123> hmm, though i think it was named differently
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20:55:31  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Raphaeljs is pretty neat
20:56:27  <andythenorth> looks it
20:56:35  <andythenorth> even prints from IE 7
21:04:25  <FLHerne> I was doing some very nasty things with it and wkhtmltopdf to create PDFs with diagrams :P
21:04:58  <FLHerne> I'm sure there are saner ways to do that, but the html version was useful too
21:05:41  <andythenorth> ‘saner'
21:05:45  <andythenorth> all PDF is bonkers
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21:06:33  <FLHerne> True, but people like the pesky things for some reason
21:06:42  <andythenorth> yes
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21:06:49  <andythenorth> but they’d like to edit them
21:06:53  <andythenorth> a bit like a word doc...
21:07:10  <FLHerne> At least they're more reliably useful than those RTF things people keep sending me
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21:08:05  <FLHerne> Word docs, or even odt, are frustratingly unreliable formatting-wise though
21:08:51  <FLHerne> At least (valid) PDFs tend to look the same whoever you send them to
21:10:26  <planetmaker> or not. If they assume existence of certain fonts or whatever
21:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause> PDFs i either create from latex or by "printing" a document
21:12:53  <frosch123> i only send documents as png image
21:13:04  <planetmaker> :)
21:13:10  <planetmaker> well, pdf usually is fine enough
21:13:11  <andythenorth> I print them out
21:13:15  <andythenorth> and scan them to powerpoint
21:13:23  <andythenorth> then fax them
21:14:10  <planetmaker> ;)
21:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> fax is cool. if it's the right tool for the german internet ministers, it's right for everyone
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22:25:11  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:25:47  <andythenorth> bed
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