Log for #openttd on 11th January 2015:
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00:06:45  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
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00:08:00  <NewNub> Hello, i'm new to this game and both me and some friends of mine who tried to play cannot understand how to follow what people are doing as specators
00:08:24  <NewNub> I there something we don't know about the client gui?
00:09:18  <Zuu> You will have to communicate on the chat where to look
00:09:43  <Zuu> You can also place signs and use the sign list window to find the spot you talk about.
00:09:59  <NewNub> as spectators?
00:10:08  <ST2> I guess NewNub is talking about this:
00:10:38  <Zuu> Spectators can't place signs. But the perosn on the company can create signs.
00:10:54  <Zuu> Anyway if you play a game, why not join a company?
00:11:17  <NewNub> i'd like to watch first
00:11:34  <NewNub> yeah that link look like what i was serching for
00:11:43  <NewNub> searching for
00:12:31  <NewNub> so that says that some tool to watch companies has been removed? :|
00:12:51  <Zuu> It is a patch that has never been included in the official OpenTTD version.
00:13:26  <ST2> still a link to download a patch file in last page:
00:13:41  <NewNub> oh i see
00:13:59  <NewNub> i there any special reson for not including in the client?
00:15:02  <NewNub> because without something who helps following the game is really frustrating
00:15:22  <planetmaker> it's very easy to follow what s/o is doing by communicating and referencing sprites
00:15:42  <planetmaker> but being able to actually track s/o by the tile is an extreme griefing opportunity.
00:15:58  <planetmaker> And I don't speak from theory, I tried such patch as admin of a server
00:16:35  <planetmaker> the sign list is easily accessible, every player can use it and click to jump where a sign is. Dead easy
00:16:44  <planetmaker> similar with station and industry lists
00:17:07  <NewNub> so you agree with me?
00:17:20  <planetmaker> dunno. I will never support such patch
00:17:24  <ST2> viewports too, if you want to keep an eye in a particular spot ^^
00:17:30  <Zuu> Station list allow you to find stations of a company if the map is insanely large and just moving around doesn't find you anything to look at.
00:17:54  <planetmaker> I wrote a similar one once and concluded its poisonous for the game
00:18:14  <NewNub> oh so you don't agree :|
00:19:14  <Zuu> I don't really have an opinion on if such a patch is good or bad.
00:19:17  <planetmaker> you can click on sign/station/industry list and jump there. If a place is communicated, you can easily follow anything
00:19:48  <Zuu> But there are facilities to communicate with players and browse what they have built.
00:20:14  <NewNub> i don't understand how to easily communicate with people
00:20:28  <NewNub> and also why a spec should bother players to see what they are doing
00:20:29  <Zuu> Press T or Enter to open chat window
00:20:37  <planetmaker> type in chat?
00:21:00  <NewNub> so players start teching? i don't understand
00:21:26  <planetmaker> teaching other players works like a charm on the coop servers. And on others, too.
00:21:49  <planetmaker> They just read what others type. And write back. In public chat... how easier can it be?
00:21:58  <planetmaker> there's even auto-complete for townnames
00:22:42  <NewNub> i believe it for expert players but for new one first time playing is kind of complicated to think that way at beginning
00:23:41  <NewNub> 'cause everyone expect to watch what's happening independently
00:23:43  <Elyon> what, human interaction is kind of complicated for humans? :p
00:24:17  <NewNub> without need to type stuff or bother anyone
00:24:30  <NewNub> yes imo is complicated
00:24:33  <Elyon> oh, hmm
00:24:57  <Elyon> check out the tutorial game, then join and check out how stuff has been built?
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00:25:02  <Zuu> So instead of typing to a human in game, you type to humans on IRC :-)
00:25:30  <Elyon> speak for yourself, Zuu :3
00:25:40  <NewNub> i do 'cause i put effort to understand things
00:25:56  <NewNub> but i'm just suggesting about the random player behaviour
00:26:22  <Zuu> In-game tutorial:
00:26:30  <Zuu> wiki tutorial:
00:26:52  <Elyon> openttdcoop tutorial savegame:
00:27:12  <NewNub> i think that would be top priority patch to improve confidence of new players on this game
00:28:26  <Elyon> what, self-confidence of new players? What is the difference from just joining and checking out what has been built?
00:29:49  <NewNub> tracking difficulty
00:30:14  <Elyon> you mean track placing?
00:30:16  <NewNub> and gives people more sense that people are doing something
00:30:19  <Zuu> You can look at youtube for videos with people building stuff in OpenTTD and commenting what they do.
00:31:02  <Zuu> And for MP, try a smaller map, or #openttdcoop public server on busy times.
00:31:34  <NewNub> ok
00:32:00  <NewNub> by the way i hope i could contribute with my opinion :D
00:32:50  <Elyon> definitely, it's always nice knowing the new player perception, as that is difficult to sample yourself
00:32:51  <Zuu> I once played a 64x64 MP with 3-4 people. :-D
00:33:14  <Zuu> Then you had good overview over what the others did. :-)
00:33:23  <Elyon> while you're at it, NewNub, you should start developing newgrfs as well :D
00:34:07  <NewNub> what is that?
00:34:52  <NewNub> newgrfs?
00:35:15  <Elyon> plugins/mods/addons/something like that
00:35:28  <Myhorta> I don't know what you could learn from just watching. It feels empty for me. Most of the times you won't even understand why the builder took such decisions. At most  what you will learn is building patterns. And, IMO, it is better explained in tutorials like the ones mentioned above
00:35:46  <Elyon> or through full duplex communication
00:36:02  <Myhorta> y
00:36:49  <Elyon> also, PHEW
00:37:04  <Elyon> that was spritelayouts abstracted. Now, on to stations!
00:37:12  <NewNub> well.... i'm already involved in another project
00:37:22  <NewNub> this would be too much for me i guess
00:37:55  <Elyon> it was mostly a joke
00:38:03  <Elyon> :)
00:38:08  <NewNub> :)
00:39:21  <NewNub> oh there are other clients too? D:
00:39:28  <Elyon> huh?
00:39:40  <NewNub> what's this btpro? is that official?
00:39:47  <Elyon> never heard of it
00:40:00  <NewNub>
00:40:33  <Elyon> no, it is not official
00:40:49  <Elyon> and it has snowflakes on the website so I wouldn't get it
00:41:22  <NewNub> lol
00:41:23  <Myhorta> :D
00:41:30  <NewNub> but what is that? is that safe or some fake stuff?
00:41:47  <Elyon> probably safe but specific to the btpro community
00:41:54  <Elyon> if you're not part of that, I doubt there's much use
00:42:12  <Myhorta> it is safe. It includes some extras features they think it enhances the gameplay for their servers
00:42:20  <Elyon> just get vanilla openttd, possibly plop in some newgrfs, and start playing :)
00:42:32  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:43:40  <Myhorta> y. For newcomers vanilla is the way to go
00:43:50  <NewNub> where is that?
00:43:55  <Elyon>
00:44:11  <NewNub> so the standard client?
00:44:13  <Elyon> 'vanilla' should be understood as 'plain, unmodified'.
00:44:21  <Elyon> this goes for everything related to software
00:44:40  <Elyon> yes, the standard client
00:44:43  <NewNub> i already have it
00:44:49  <Elyon> good. :)
00:45:47  <NewNub> that's why i was asking that question at beginning :D
00:47:28  <NewNub> 'cause after we joined a server the first time we couldn't understand a thing of what was happening :|
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00:49:14  <Elyon> which server?
00:49:45  <Elyon> and if you want, I'll do a 64x64 with you just to get you started :)
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00:58:37  <NewNub> really thank you Elyon  but i got to go now
00:58:59  <NewNub> maybe in some of the next few days
00:59:28  <NewNub> thank you guys for support
00:59:31  <NewNub> see ya
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01:20:01  <Elyon> "Stations (0x04) are not yet fully implemented" <- well that's an understatement
01:25:08  <planetmaker> Elyon, it's not that much of an understatement:
01:26:06  <planetmaker> most (or all?) variables for stations are there
01:26:43  <planetmaker> actually even line 246 following
01:27:04  <planetmaker> anyway... sleep time. good night :)
01:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that's like saying "the house is not fully constructed yet", when you bought some shovels and ordered a truckload of concrete to fill in the foundation :p
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02:07:54  <Elyon> pm, goodnight :)
02:08:01  <Elyon> Eddi, :D
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07:39:43  <andythenorth> o/
07:48:37  <Elyon> o/
07:49:03  <Elyon> I am nearly at the point I was two days ago regarding nml stations
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07:54:54  <andythenorth> going in circles? o_O
07:55:20  <Elyon> well ...
07:55:53  <Elyon> ... kind of?
07:56:11  <Elyon> I started from scratch by restructuring and abstracting the relevant parts of what was already there
07:56:33  <Elyon> which means the process of actually reaching the point I was before is a lot more smooth, more general, and results in more robust code
07:59:07  <Elyon> plus, the restructuring and abstraction was made with the stuff in mind that I /hadn't/ already done, precisely because a restructure was desirable before I did it
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08:12:56  <Elyon> also while the current approach is slightly hack-ish, the previous one was downright dirty
08:16:19  <andythenorth> :)
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09:07:40  <Alberth> moin
09:11:15  <andythenorth> lo
09:16:17  <Taede> hi
09:18:03  <planetmaker> moin
09:18:32  <V453000> yoooooooooo
09:29:42  <andythenorth> release day?
09:29:57  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you want to write a post or should I?
09:30:24  <Alberth> please go ahead
09:31:56  <andythenorth> will do shortly
09:32:08  <andythenorth> I’ll upload it to bananas on the coop account
09:32:09  <andythenorth> hmm
09:32:26  <andythenorth> how to bundle it?  .tar I assume
09:32:42  <Alberth> think so
09:33:04  <V453000> t3h GS?
09:33:19  <Alberth> planetmaker: do you have time to look into bundling/version stuff for busybee?
09:41:41  <planetmaker> Maybe, what do you need Alberth? Not sure that GS need anything special. Tbh I never did that for a GS myself yet. Doesn't work what frosch uses for his?
09:44:01  <planetmaker> Usually a GS just needs bundling everything there is in the repo as tar and upload that to bananas (maybe except .devzone folder)
09:44:02  <Alberth> it seems too complicated, it has a version number derived from the tag as far as I can see, yet there are also version numbers in info,nut, and min-compatible version numbers
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09:45:21  <Alberth> we had the idea to have 1 number for the 'tag' version and the info.nut version. This implies we need to derive the tag version, and insert it into info.nut
09:45:43  <Alberth> using version.nut seems quite weird too tbh
09:46:04  <Alberth> a file with nothing else but a number used in another file
09:46:05  <planetmaker> version.nut is needed by openttd (or at least something like that)
09:46:14  <Alberth> :O
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09:46:31  <planetmaker> it's how openttd knows about the GS' version
09:46:33  <Alberth> would be interesting, as so far, BB has no version.nut
09:46:52  <Alberth> you're probably confused with info.nut
09:47:13  <planetmaker>     function GetVersion()       { return 1; } <-- well, that line :)
09:47:38  <Alberth> I think version.nut exists because Zuu needed the number at 2 places
09:47:57  <V453000> nutnut :)
09:47:59  <Alberth> yeah, and that number should be derived from the hg tag
09:48:14  <V453000> it is well known that openttd requires some nut :P
09:48:14  <Alberth> nuts.nut?
09:48:26  <V453000> \o/
09:49:26  <Alberth> if we add / update that number manually in the file, and then tag, we'll get tags with wrong numbers
09:50:03  <Alberth> since /me and andy will type "hg tag 123" rather than checking the number in the info.nut file
09:50:30  <planetmaker> right. And what version will un-tagged csets have?
09:50:51  <planetmaker> newgrf approach is to use dayssince2000 as version
09:51:01  <planetmaker> and tag as displayed version only
09:51:01  <Alberth> I can live with 0
09:51:25  <Alberth> @calc 15*365
09:51:26  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 5475
09:52:06  <Alberth> hmm, that includes development versions I guess
09:52:13  <planetmaker> one version per day
09:52:27  <planetmaker> it uses day of commit
09:53:14  <Alberth> we'd need to start at say 100,000 for releases or so
09:53:37  <Alberth> then we'll runinto trouble in 95*15 years :p
09:53:45  <planetmaker> <-- this is the commit-related data my 'findversion' script can produce currently. Anything useful?
09:53:56  <planetmaker> and why do you need 100k for releases?
09:54:48  <Alberth> if you use lower numbers for releases, development versions are by definition compatible, aren't they?
09:55:21  <Alberth> oh, maybe we need a high mincompatible number instead
09:55:27  <planetmaker> but you only want *newer* development versions marked as compatible, no?
09:56:27  <Alberth> you have these language string-name changes that break compatibility
09:56:51  <Alberth> as well as adding/shuffling/removing strings
09:57:29  <Alberth> ok, assume we use day-number as dev version
09:57:49  <Alberth> where do release numbers go then?
09:58:26  <planetmaker> in GetName
09:58:59  <Alberth> we keep the same day-numbers for releases? at least for compatibility that would be useful
09:59:02  <planetmaker> thus versions are monotonically increasing. Tags identify themselves by amending the name
09:59:50  <Alberth> right, that could work I think
10:01:06  <V453000> hm, wondering what will I do with toyland :> got a couple ideas
10:01:44  <Alberth> so we derive the day-number and date from the repo, and insert it into info.nut
10:02:04  <Alberth> (hmm, use daynumber as date? :p )
10:02:32  <Alberth> then figure out language string compatibility for mincompatible
10:02:40  <planetmaker> I still suggest to use the ;)
10:03:27  <Alberth> that basically does "we derive the day-number and date from the repo" ?
10:03:38  <Alberth> if so, yes of course
10:03:55  <planetmaker> yes, among others. Up to you which of the 7 info it provides you use
10:04:20  <Alberth> :)
10:04:30  <planetmaker> it's like openttd's
10:04:46  <planetmaker> it spams it all, the makefile makes use of the parts where needed
10:04:51  <Alberth> I'll do some experiments, thanks for playing talking teddybear :)
10:04:56  <planetmaker> :D
10:05:09  <Alberth> I tried to build SV, and it broke on my hg settings
10:05:35  <Alberth> distributing to all projects makes update quite cumbersome
10:07:40  <planetmaker> from what I understand now, what I would do: use frosch's implementation and change / amend slightly:
10:09:03  <Alberth> yep, drop version.nut, derive string file compatibility automagically
10:09:37  <planetmaker> you want version.nut, too. To hold the dayssince2000
10:09:37  <Alberth> build has access to the repo?
10:09:58  <planetmaker> there's no automatic build. And CF cannot push to repo
10:10:16  <planetmaker> though we can create automatic bundling and publishing to bundles server
10:11:15  <planetmaker> the only service which pushes to the repo is the translation service
10:11:29  <Alberth> oh :o
10:11:50  <Alberth> manual build is fine
10:12:13  <Alberth> don't expect major work for a long time, tbh
10:12:27  <planetmaker> well, it's all a matter of telling jenkins to build that project on push
10:12:43  <planetmaker> but that 'telling jenkins' is a manual step
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10:13:03  <planetmaker> it's a one-time thing
10:13:34  <Alberth> don't know what andy has in mind, let's consider that after we can automagically build something :)
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10:15:10  <andythenorth> I have nothing in mind :)
10:15:18  <andythenorth> literally blank :P
10:15:39  <Alberth> changing a file in the repo is trouble though, although that problem now also exists with version.nut
10:15:52  <Alberth> so it's nothing new in that respect
10:16:31  <Alberth> andy, you clearly haven't played enough BB games yet :p
10:19:03  <planetmaker> let me suggest a diff
10:19:21  <planetmaker> based on frosch's way
10:19:38  <planetmaker> but taking into account the tags / current version and see whether you like it
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10:46:28  <planetmaker> m @ Alberth
10:48:39  <Alberth> looking useful, thanks
10:49:01  <Alberth> want to go out for a walk now, will look at it afterwards
10:49:05  <Alberth> bbl
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11:25:45  <Wolf01> hi hi
11:32:35  <supermop> hi
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12:21:11  <Myhorta> is there any page that list all subdomains? I'm pretty sure I stumble on it once but I can't find it anymore.
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12:25:54  <michi_cc> @topic get 2
12:25:54  <DorpsGek> michi_cc: Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger)
12:26:01  <michi_cc> Myhorta: ^
12:26:49  <Rubidium> that's not all subdomains (not that a list of all sub domains is useful, or ever to be released in public)
12:27:58  <Myhorta> :facepalm: thanks michi_cc
12:32:27  <Myhorta> what is the compiler you use for win-64bits binaries?
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12:39:15  <planetmaker> Myhorta, our CF uses msvc. But you can also use any other, like gcc, or clang
12:39:35  <planetmaker> or icc or whatever. many compilers can build openttd
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12:47:16  <Myhorta> hmmm ok, thanks. So in order to build in msvc is there any preferable version, or the most recent will do?
12:50:45  <planetmaker> might help :)
12:53:18  <Myhorta> Thanks. So the most recent version that is supported is 2012.
12:58:00  <planetmaker> 2012 is the most recent version s/o wrote a wiki page about
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13:11:09  <Elyon> o/
13:20:12  <planetmaker> \o
13:32:47  <Elyon> hrmeh, station prop 1A fails for 2+ referenced spritelayouts
13:33:10  <Elyon> the first one compiles flawlessly and then it dies on the second
13:38:46  <planetmaker> thou shall not have other layouts besides me ;)
13:40:11  <Elyon> :p
13:40:33  <Elyon> the ten write_register commands
13:43:14  <Elyon> it's probably (read: definitely) because I haven't yet implemented the registers for prop1A
13:43:31  <Elyon> still, why does the first one not fail? Hmm...
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13:47:08  <Elyon> two identical layouts. The first works, the second doesn't.
13:48:28  <Elyon> for some reason get_register('sprite')[0] is a VarAction2 but its parameter is None
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14:46:24  <frosch123> Alberth: planetmaker: i specifically do not use the result of 'findversion' for info.nut GetVersion
14:46:40  <frosch123> using the repository version for savegame version is wrong
14:46:51  <frosch123> the savegame version is rather the "branch"
14:47:16  <frosch123> openttd also uses findversion to give it a name, but the savegame version in saveload.cpp is set manually, resp. is changed when branching etc
14:47:22  <Alberth> which "the result" ?
14:47:47  <frosch123> the version number that changes daily
14:48:36  <frosch123> what value does your GetVersion in info.nut return?
14:48:57  <frosch123> when does it change? each commit? each branch?
14:49:23  <Alberth> that's what I was considering indeed
14:49:54  <Alberth> each commit would work if you don't do branching I think
14:51:25  <Alberth> asked differently, how do branch when you only have a single integer number
14:52:06  <frosch123> like ottd, the savegame version stays constant in a branch
14:53:00  <frosch123> anyway, my goal was also to not change version number when only updating translation
14:53:18  <frosch123> i.e. giving the savegame version some meaning
14:53:43  <frosch123> changes to it should be associated to a commit, that changes something incompatibly
14:53:58  <Alberth> fair enough
14:54:10  <frosch123> if it changes automatically i have no idea how you would use it
14:54:21  <frosch123> you would kind of have to commit the addition, see what version it gets
14:54:25  <frosch123> and then insert the savegame conversion
14:54:47  <frosch123> so, imho "version" and "savegame version" are very different things
14:55:44  <Alberth> /me adgrees
14:55:48  <Alberth> *agrees
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14:57:28  <Alberth> so what you'd basically need is a check that the savegame version is still sane perhaps
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15:22:10  <frosch123> hmm, maybe there is a problem with sv though
15:22:25  <frosch123> i guess if you download multiple versions, ottd cannot tell which is the newest one :p
15:23:02  <frosch123> so, it may need a full blown ottd version like SAVEGAME_VERSION * 100000 + DATE
15:38:12  <Alberth> don't make a new version without changing the save game version :p
15:38:29  <Alberth> but indeed, sounds like it
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15:45:54  <andythenorth> o
15:47:56  <Alberth> o/
15:48:15  <Wolf01> o/
16:00:35  <__ln___> @seen ludde
16:00:36  <DorpsGek> __ln___: ludde was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 26 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 57 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <ludde> hej
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17:10:28  <__ln___>
17:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so, more wind makes it warmer?
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17:18:29  <__ln___> i guess so
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17:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause>
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18:46:55  <Alberth> andythenorth: pushed makefile + scripts for bundle and bananas; not sure it is all ok, probably needs further work (bananas not tested at all)
18:49:28  <Alberth> please also check the content of the new files, there are some new descriptions etc, made by our planet creator
18:51:56  <frosch123>  :o
18:54:31  <Alberth> furhter enhancements are probably possible, not fully awake any more
18:54:59  <Alberth> you may also want to update your, for handling the non-standard hg settings
18:55:01  <Alberth> gn
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21:56:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:57:15  <Elyon> yes, hmm
21:57:35  <Elyon> I am beginning to dream about sprite registers and ConstantNumerics
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23:35:13  <dreck> hi
23:35:30  <dreck> hm ok now thats a weird shows me joining twice 0_o
23:38:38  <dreck> that aside, just wondering if its a road-only thing or can livery/cargo refit change a fixed train's length?
23:41:10  <Supercheese> cargo subtype refits can indeed be coded to change vehicle length
23:41:16  <Supercheese> for RV and trains
23:42:32  <dreck> thanks supercheese. so I guess capacity/length can be easily changed without involving some kind of invisible cargo type as is with the nars-specific regear thinge, correct?
23:42:46  <Supercheese> correct, that is no longer required
23:44:08  <dreck> hmm I'll try a dumb test grf and see if it works well in both games. then see from there
23:44:10  <Supercheese> I can point to some examples of cargo subtype being used to change capacity/length/power/etc. if you desire
23:44:16  <Supercheese> in NML, of course
23:44:18  <dreck> thanks anyway....I guess more wiki reading :-s
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23:50:52  <dreck> so whats the big cheese up to now?
23:52:16  <Supercheese> well, I still have to finish the Latin translation of FIRS
23:52:23  <Supercheese> kinda stalled on that for a bit
23:55:56  <dreck> ah :)
23:56:13  <dreck> yeah getting a big grf into so many different languages doesn
23:56:18  <dreck> doesn't seem to sound like a lot of fun*
23:56:30  * dreck whacks the stupid Return key for getting in my way again!

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