Log for #openttd on 24th April 2015:
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00:11:30  <Sylf> Odin, the weight multiplier doesn't touch the payment
00:12:06  <Sylf> the slower acceleration will lead to very slight reduction in payment (if at all), and that's about it.
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00:59:40  <Odin> Testing it some, I find that the profitability takes a nosedive
01:01:10  <Odin> It seems like it should literally multiply the amount of cargo held by each car in order to protect the engine's profitability while allowing the trains to be shortened to where it properly fits the game
01:01:41  <Odin> I've ended up making 14 and 21 car trains to be pulled by some pretty little locomotives
01:03:02  <Odin> Initially it just makes it accelerate a little slower, but when it gets to a point where the train has to be shortened it does't take long for profitability to be impossible
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02:18:38  <Flygon> I still reckon a mode to reduce the rate of acceleration for everything in the game'd be neat, independant of weight/hills ect
02:18:46  <Flygon> As in, literally slow down the game
02:19:52  <Flygon> Because some pax trains I get accelerate ludicrously fast for what they have <_>
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02:47:10  <Odin> I end up runing the Lima Shay from NARS for everything except passenger and trunk line service
02:47:39  <Odin> All the short line freight routes, the shay engine pulls a stupidly long train so easily and is super cheap to operate
02:49:31  <Odin> Trunk lines I usually run the 2-10-4 Texas, the 2-8-8-2 Mallet, or the 2-6-6-4 Challenger
02:49:52  <Odin> and I basically can't actually load down any of these, the trains become impossible to handle in length
02:52:51  <Odin> Thing is though, its basically impossible for these big engines to be profitable without having enormously long trains that are difficult to work with in-game
02:53:07  <Odin> If the freight multiplier could hang more tonnage off the drawbar without killing profitability, it would make them easier to use
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11:57:44  <andythenorth> o/
11:57:49  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
11:57:49  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 47 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
11:58:11  <andythenorth> hmm
11:58:17  <andythenorth> also, is daylength done yet?
12:07:57  <Alberth> moin
12:08:10  <Alberth> people seem to disagree on what daylength actually means :)
12:09:41  * andythenorth was being a naughty
12:09:57  <andythenorth> I don’t hold out much hope for a patch where the fundamentals are so widely misunderstood
12:09:59  <andythenorth> :)
12:10:22  <Alberth> me neither :)
12:22:39  <planetmaker> yeah... though it actually only needs making a decision as to what *should* be understood
12:22:49  <planetmaker> And mostly the wanted feature is slower ingame time progression
12:23:08  <planetmaker> Thus adjusting the display of yearly and monthly costs according to the stretch factor probably would do the trick
12:23:35  <Alberth> nah, slower introduction of new vehicles, imho
12:23:39  <planetmaker> yes
12:24:06  <andythenorth> multiplier to the vehicle introduction function
12:24:13  <andythenorth> call it ‘speed of technology ladder'
12:24:24  <andythenorth> probably won’t suit the foamers :P
12:24:33  <andythenorth> who are probably the main candidate for daylength
12:24:44  <andythenorth> “I absolutely must be able to see my toy trains in real time"
12:25:11  * andythenorth favours ‘double all introduction dates'
12:25:14  <andythenorth> that would sort it
12:25:31  <andythenorth> *lots* of extra time to wait for a vehicle introduced in 2010
12:25:36  <Alberth> most players pick random newgrfs that are mentioned somewhere, and get newgrfs with way too many trains
12:26:05  <Alberth> then they feel pressured in not being able to use all trains
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12:28:04  <planetmaker> yeah... the giant choice of vehicles gives the impression of too fast
12:28:19  <planetmaker> and it's true, even with default, it's quick in the later years when you have a huge empire
12:28:27  <Alberth> just the days flying by in about 3 seconds already does that
12:29:41  <Alberth> just like displaying a goal in BB gives the pressure to fulfill it, even though nobody says you should, and there is no penalty if you don't
12:30:23  <andythenorth> conversely
12:30:26  <andythenorth> in Iron Horse
12:30:38  <andythenorth> I am sitting there, thinking ‘wtf, where is new trains?’
12:30:39  <andythenorth> :P
12:30:46  <andythenorth> and my ffwd is bust :)
12:31:14  <Alberth> play bigger map, or higher industry density :p
12:31:21  <andythenorth> more BB goals
12:31:25  <andythenorth> 15 not 7
12:31:28  * andythenorth didn’t try that
12:31:33  <andythenorth> Very Busy Bee
12:31:42  <Alberth> or higher speed of technology ladder :p
12:31:55  <andythenorth> did someone add that feature yet? o_O
12:32:06  * andythenorth is tempted to do it in newgrf, just to prove the point
12:32:13  <Alberth> you didn't add it in IH ?
12:32:21  <andythenorth> not as a parameter
12:32:33  <andythenorth> I could do a date multiplier parameter, but forums would still want daylength :P
12:32:40  <andythenorth> because
.eh, who knows
12:32:49  <Alberth> random reason X
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12:33:34  <Alberth> usually I spend waiting time just by watching trains :)
12:33:55  <andythenorth> usually I spend time hoping someone draws better boats :)
12:34:35  <Alberth> wetrail?
12:39:04  <andythenorth> hmm
12:39:06  <andythenorth> no comment
12:39:24  <kamnet> I think ChillCore's tweaking of the daylength patch for his patch pack hit the sweet spot for everybody
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12:43:15  <andythenorth> did it make the value available to newgrf?
12:43:25  <andythenorth> presumably FIRS needs recoded to handle daylength
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12:45:25  <mczapkie> hello
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12:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I could do a date multiplier parameter, but forums would still want daylength :P <-- you could tell people to just not read spam mails. or you could install a spam filter.
12:52:43  <mczapkie> may I have a question: is it possible to use company colours for DrawString procedure?
12:53:13  <mczapkie> I see that text colours are slihgtly different than normal colours
12:53:34  <mczapkie> pink and pale green doesn't match
12:54:34  <Odin> <Alberth> then they feel pressured in not being able to use all trains
12:55:00  <Odin> Or they run NARS and its basically impossible to hang the engine's rated load on the drawbar due to train size limits
12:55:31  <Odin> Trying to compensate using the weight multiplier only makes the train unprofitable because it doesn't multiply the profitability to match
12:56:25  <Odin> I end up running till the 1960s using the Shay for short line freight and either the consolidation or 2-10-4 Texas for mainline freight
12:57:00  <Alberth> it's quite possible NARS is the wrong set for you :)
12:57:14  <Odin> Possibly. What other american rail sets are there?
12:58:23  <Odin> The problem I have with NARS is once you get around 1900 even the smallest locos are so powerful that a train long enough to properly load it down is also so long it doesn't fit between towns or in stations
12:58:58  <Alberth> Don't know, mostly all XYZ country newgrfs are broken for me in having too many engines
12:59:29  <Odin> I end up with 2-8-0 Consolidatons pulling 14-21 car trains all over the place, and basically can't even use the 2-8-8-2 Mallet or 2-6-6-2 Challenger because I can't put a long enough train behind them to make them profitable
13:00:02  <Odin> I don't mind having too many engines, its nice to have options. Even though I basically pick out the best pullers for a task and stick to them, like my use of the Lima Shay for short-line freight
13:00:14  <Alberth> there is a "reduce costs" parameter, tried that?
13:00:28  <Odin> That might be the ticket, run that with weight multiplier
13:01:13  <Odin> Ideally I'd like to be able to run the Challenger on a 14-length express freight and have it stay profitable until dieselisation
13:01:37  <Odin> To make that happen, it'd have to be 7-10x weight multiplier and the profitability similarly adjusted
13:02:51  <Alberth> there are also basecost modify newgrfs you can use
13:04:12  <Odin>
13:04:21  <Odin> This is a problem too, but its not openttd's problem at least
13:04:38  <kamnet> With most NewGRF train sets, people aren't playing them because they're trying to run a profitable game. They're playing them because they want trains to represent certain companies or geopolitical regions.
13:04:58  <Odin> Yeah
13:05:21  <Odin> I like the american rolling stock in nars, but it also tries to implement realistic costs and pulling power
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13:05:25  <Odin> Which is sorta gamebreaking for openttd
13:05:32  <Odin> It was designed for much smaller trains
13:05:43  <kamnet> That's pretty much why Pikka's stopped with NARS and is developing Pineapple Trains. Not only smaller selection, but better balanced to gameplay
13:05:54  <Odin> American engines are gigantic, designed to pull gigantic trains across gigantic empty spaces.
13:06:18  <kamnet> Which OpenTTD isn't optimized for
13:06:18  <Odin> From the stock sets being the British engine lineage, it was probably tuned for that kind of environment. Modest engines pulling reasonable trains in the short hops betwen villages
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13:07:50  <kamnet> That makes me wonder something, I know there's a penalty if a train stops in a station that isn't long enough to hold it all, is it just a fixed rate of penalty, or is it a penalty per car over the length?
13:16:28  <Alberth> per car, afaik
13:17:44  <Alberth> Odin: OpenTTD is not a simulation, it's a game. Lots of people try to simulate their country in it, but it's just not designed for it
13:18:44  <Alberth> reality is a source of inspiration, and that's it
13:23:06  <planetmaker> Alberth, I agree, but we have a problem there: "OpenTTD is a transport simulation game based upon the popular game Transport..."
13:23:21  <planetmaker> from our own readme. First line of the 'About' section :)
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13:24:33  <Alberth> it simulates transport, that sounds fair
13:25:19  <Alberth> it doesn't say realistic transport nor realistic simulation
13:25:44  <planetmaker> yup. But those are fine semantics hard to argue with non-native speakers (like us :P )
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13:26:31  <Alberth> I am fine with changing it to "non-realistic transport simulation game"
13:27:51  <Alberth> a far better solution could be to allow 2 new engines each decade at most, and have 5 newgrfs at most, or so
13:28:29  <planetmaker> :)
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13:28:47  <planetmaker> and a year later: -Feature: Increase allowed engines per decade to 5
13:28:59  <planetmaker> 30k-party, here we come! :)
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13:34:26  <LordAro> woo
13:39:32  <V453000> :0
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13:41:49  <Odin> Yeah. It simulates running a transport network. It does not accurately simulate any particular country or scenario
13:43:31  <Odin> What I'm hoping for though is to be able to run the NARS locos while also at least being profitable, even if the train length is chopped to 1/10th normal due to game limitations
13:43:56  <Odin> It sounds like the operating cost multiplier might be the key piece I needed, make the engines 1/10th the cost to run and pull cargo 10x heavier
13:44:04  <Odin> then the trains woudl be the correct length, but still profitable too
13:44:11  <Odin> *would be a reasonable length
13:47:11  <kamnet> What would probably be more reasonable would be to code a new set and ask Pikka to borrow NARS sprites. :)  And, not call it NARS.
13:48:09  <kamnet> PABST = Profitable and Balanced Set of Trains
13:48:47  <Alberth> Odin: you have have pre-defined requirements, and you try to squeeze NARS in it no matter what, even though it clearly doesn't go that way? :)
13:49:22  <Alberth> Pikka sprites are gpl afaik
13:49:33  <kamnet> Grade level crossings are hell:
13:54:06  <andythenorth> pikka sprites are more on the lines of “I don’t care as long as you ask” rather than GPL ;)
13:54:11  <andythenorth> in my experience
13:55:04  <Alberth> fair enough, it's always nice to ask first
13:55:24  <andythenorth> if you hang around long enough, Iron Horse will have one or more US / Canadian rosters
13:55:31  <andythenorth> probably ~2 years away I think
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14:33:11  <Odin> Its more a matter of I've been trying to make this work and arrived at the 7-10x multiplier in experimenting
14:33:50  <Odin> Along similar lines, any grfs that add road vehicles before the 1920s? Something along the lines of horse-carts to relay from the train station to the other side of town
14:35:42  <andythenorth> egrvts
14:35:52  <andythenorth> it’s well made
14:35:58  <andythenorth> but rather large number of vehicles
14:36:13  <Odin> Not worried about that
14:36:16  <andythenorth> you could try the alpha of Road Hog, it’s downloadable from in-game content
14:36:30  <andythenorth> Road Hog has no horses, but offers vehicles from 1860s
14:36:34  <Odin> I usually pick the ones that I want to use, and set the rest to hidden status to avoid the clutter
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14:37:06  <Odin> 1860s would work. I usually start around 1889, since that's when the Lima class C Shay I like is introduced in nars.
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15:33:47  <fr0zenst0rm> join openttdcoop
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15:38:49  <mczapkie> knock knock
15:40:40  <andythenorth> o/ mczapkie
15:44:02  <mczapkie> Despite of topic, may I ask if I can ask a technical question?
15:44:42  <Alberth> you can always try
15:45:31  <andythenorth> I always ask if I can ask
15:45:37  <mczapkie> what is a meaning of "from" field in settings.ini? I suppose it have nothing to do with setting range
15:45:41  <andythenorth> can I ask if I can ask if I can ask?
15:45:58  <Alberth> mczapkie: that's not even off-topic :)
15:46:29  <Alberth> it's the first savegame version that has the setting
15:47:09  <Alberth> ie savegames with version less than 100 are not expected to have a field you added in savegame number 100 :)
15:47:51  <mczapkie> thanks, I will fix it
15:48:41  <mczapkie> invalid chunk size is related to this?
15:48:50  <Alberth> yep
15:49:31  <Alberth> chunk size is the cumulative size of a part of the savegame, which is of course computed wrong if you expect fields that aren't there
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15:49:54  <Alberth> since an old openttd version never wrote that field :)
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15:50:54  <Alberth> fix is easy, travel back through time to add the field
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15:53:57  <mczapkie> another question, if I may ask :) is it possible to change background of DrawString procedure?
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15:55:05  <mczapkie> or it is uniform for whole widget window?
15:55:59  <mczapkie> what I need to do is to distinguish different company vehicle numbers in station window list
15:56:15  <Alberth> strings only draw foreground
15:56:32  <Alberth> you'd have to draw background before drawing the string
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15:58:58  <mczapkie> DrawRect() ?
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15:59:08  <Alberth> ie GfxFillRect  at the area of the string
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16:01:56  <Alberth> if (vscroll_pos != 0) GfxFillRect(left, py - WD_MATRIX_TOP - 1, right, py - WD_MATRIX_TOP, _colour_gradient[COLOUR_GREY][5]);   at train_gui.cpp 406   looks like it, but not sure what it does exactly
16:05:06  <mczapkie> above is for dragging, I guess
16:06:21  <mczapkie> but I have no idea, where vehicle list for the certain station is constructed (did not found neither in train_gui nor station_gui)
16:07:53  <Alberth> doesn't matter, a few lines below is a drawstring  DrawString(data_left, data_right, py, STR_QUANTITY_N_A, TC_LIGHT_BLUE);
16:08:49  <Alberth> it uses left/right, and py as well
16:09:06  <Alberth> (data_left/right to compensate for RTL languages)
16:10:11  <Alberth> so that's the pattern, draw a background at the area of the string, then draw the string over it
16:11:19  <mczapkie> ok, I understand how this fill rect works (I just responded on question, what it does exactly)
16:12:45  <mczapkie> but my prolem is, that I cannot find where is defined station widget "show all ... which have this station in their shedule" - I cannot even found appropriate string in lang
16:13:29  <Alberth> that's a tooltip?
16:13:55  <mczapkie> yes, I just found it: STR_STATION_VIEW_SCHEDULED_TRAINS_TOOLTIP
16:14:36  <Alberth> k
16:15:41  <mczapkie> looks bad, if I understand how this widget works
16:15:42  <Alberth> line 789 station_gui uses it
16:17:24  <Alberth> ?
16:17:27  <mczapkie> yes, but I probably must write a child class for this widget
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16:17:51  <mczapkie> I need to define separate background or text color for each vehicle
16:18:07  <Alberth> :{BLACK}{TRAIN}    <-- that's the little train icon
16:19:13  <Alberth> you need lots of buttons, one for each company, I think
16:20:14  <Alberth> you can override the default render code of a widget
16:21:16  <mczapkie> sorry, I messed up - I dont need to change widget itself, just the window with train list which pop ups
16:22:25  <Alberth> k
16:23:40  <Alberth> iirc there is a generic list-vehicle thingie
16:24:05  <mczapkie> ShowVehicleListWindow ?
16:24:09  <Alberth> used for buy menu, vehicle lists, and one other thing
16:24:48  <Alberth> ShowXYZ   is the code to actually create the window, it doesn't do much but creating a Window object
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16:26:53  <Alberth> AllocateWindowDescFront<VehicleListWindow>(&_vehicle_list_train_desc, num);  <-- that creates an instance of the VehicleListWindow class
16:27:09  <Alberth> which in turns displays that to the user
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16:27:56  <argoneus> knock knock
16:30:23  <mczapkie> thanks for all comments, I will try to make some Infrastructure Sharing Patch fixes
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16:30:56  <Alberth> hmm, please don't leave so fast
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16:48:26  * kamnet scrubs scuff marks from the floor
16:48:27  <Odin> Some people don't understand the joys of idle relay chat
16:48:47  <kamnet> Kids are always in too much of a hurry.
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16:52:59  <mczapkie> apologise that I leave so fast, but I have short half decay time of ideas which I just started to understand :)
16:55:22  <Alberth> :)
16:56:22  <Alberth> just wanted to wish you good luck with the patches
16:57:23  <Alberth> and yeah, irc is a very relaxed medium :)
17:00:47  <mczapkie> So I whish pleasant relaxation then :)
17:01:57  *** mczapkie [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:04:19  <Odin> as he instantly leaves again instead of enjoying the idle time
17:04:30  <Odin> I know ADHD is a thing, but limits...
17:08:47  <Alberth> and asking all kinds of question you can ask here too :)
17:09:46  <Alberth> I guess some people always immediately close an application when they are done with it :)
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17:13:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: no iron horse recommendation in FIRS readme?
17:13:46  <andythenorth> hmm
17:13:49  <andythenorth> apparently not
17:14:00  <Terkhen> hello
17:14:04  <andythenorth> ho
17:14:06  <Alberth> also, FISH
17:14:08  <andythenorth> FIRS readme is silly
17:14:10  <andythenorth> unmaintained
17:14:38  * andythenorth could do something about that one day
17:15:02  <Alberth> you need to contact a FIRS developer to add them, it seems
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17:15:25  <andythenorth> I believe Alberth is a FIRS devloloper
17:15:37  <Alberth> I am ?
17:16:12  <Alberth> oh, indeed
17:16:37  <Alberth> how can I help you ?
17:16:48  <Alberth> /me pulls the updates
17:17:20  <andythenorth> you could just update the readme
17:17:30  <andythenorth> and convert the remaining 24 industries...
17:18:19  <Alberth> in 'snakebite'?
17:18:44  <Alberth> you won't like my idea of conversion very much, I think
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17:23:15  <andythenorth> rm
17:23:20  <andythenorth> I imagine
17:23:58  <Alberth> that'd be the quickest solution
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18:07:59  <frosch123> hoi
18:09:31  <Rubidium> moin
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18:32:09  <andythenorth> o/
18:32:24  <Alberth> o/
18:32:39  <Alberth> pushed an update to the readme template
18:36:09  <andythenorth> if I could be inspired to do it, I should combine readme + website content
18:36:15  <andythenorth> I was going to kill most of the readme
18:36:20  <andythenorth> but $someone said it was useful
18:36:34  * andythenorth pulls
18:37:23  <andythenorth> thanks :)
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19:31:23  <Wolf01> hi hi
19:31:31  <Alberth> hi hi
19:33:24  <Wolf01> this time at the gym almost killed me
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19:36:23  <Wolf01> yeah, the VPN connection now works!
19:36:33  <Alberth> :O
19:37:02  <Alberth> so 24/7 online at work now?
19:37:03  <Wolf01> sysadmin found he misconfigured the iptables
19:37:10  <Wolf01> yeah
19:37:15  <frosch123> wireing stuff in the server room does not count as gym
19:37:29  <frosch123> now matter how much you have to twist yourself to reach behind the server
19:37:30  <Wolf01> I'm not the sysadmin :P
19:37:31  <Alberth> :)
19:38:26  <andythenorth> usually, it turns out nobody is the sysadmin
19:40:01  <Wolf01> we have clear figures on our company, you can't mistake
19:40:33  <Wolf01> but hey, I can do a lot more things, don't let anybody know it :P
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19:49:17  <Wolf01> I need a suggestion, I have a class which returns 2 different instances of another class, but this class should not be a factory and it should handle the classes passed on the constructor: should I pass the 2 instances of the same class on the constructor?
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19:51:07  <Alberth> sounds fine to me
19:51:35  <Alberth> objects are not very different from eg numbers
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20:03:19  <Wolf01> mmmh, it could be tricky... to instance the second one I need a value which only the main class knows
20:03:46  <Wolf01> huge refactoring ahead
20:05:14  <Alberth> quite
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20:07:36  <Wolf01> mmh, just avoid to construct the child class with some value and use a setter... which opens a lot of more ways to do something weird
20:09:06  <Alberth> :)
20:09:22  <Alberth> I use very few getters and setters
20:09:34  <Alberth> usually public fields will do just fine :)
20:10:02  <andythenorth> don’t you like to fill your classes with _foo ? :P
20:10:09  <andythenorth> and @property declarations?
20:10:22  <andythenorth> just in case somebody, somewhere, tries to read private vars?
20:10:46  <Alberth> I just let them, even in Java
20:11:08  <andythenorth> imagine, they might pass in wrong values!
20:11:13  <andythenorth> and you can’t prevent it!
20:11:25  <andythenorth> what happens if incompetent developers work with your code!
20:11:41  <Wolf01> I started to develop with interfaces, I have interfaces for everything
20:11:41  <Alberth> and Java is broken enough not to have a protected field for derived classes :p
20:12:13  <andythenorth> if we write enough getters / setters, we can write unit tests for all of them!
20:12:18  <andythenorth> provably correct code!
20:12:18  <Alberth> interfaces are such a pain to jump around in the code
20:13:05  <Alberth> so I only use them when a baseclass won't work
20:13:07  <Wolf01> nah, not that bad
20:14:17  <Alberth> Eclipse has a F3 "jump to definition" button, which is totally useless with an interface, as you really don't want the interface itself :p
20:14:17  * andythenorth is not a proper programmer, so never has to consider these things :)
20:14:58  <Alberth> by that standard, I am not a proper programmer either :p
20:15:23  <Alberth> which is of course totally possible
20:15:46  <Wolf01> phpstorm has that too, and works the same way, but I'm used to it
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20:46:00  <Terkhen> good night
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21:11:20  <Odin> Okay, so I know about the weight modifier setting
21:11:31  <Odin> Where is the operating cost setting? The only one I see I already have bottomed out
21:12:02  <Odin> Accounting/Running Costs is set to low
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23:06:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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