Log for #openttd on 2nd May 2015:
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00:41:02  <drac_boy> any of you know what they call these smaller steam locomotive that had vertical boilers instead? the name seem to not come to me :-s
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01:03:13  <kamnet> De Winton, Mamod and Sentinel were three prominent manufacturers of such vertical boiler locomotives. When used as tractors they were sometimes known as steam donkeys. The two main types were Fire Tube boilers and Water Tube boilers.
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03:35:39  <kamnet> Supercheese! o/
03:35:48  <Supercheese> 'ello
03:36:41  <kamnet> How goes it today?
03:37:37  <Supercheese> exhausted from spending the whole day giving a technical presentation and manning a booth at our annual engineering expo at the university
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03:38:37  <Supercheese> but hey, I graduate in a couple of weeks, so maybe by this time next year I can be doing the same thing but getting paid
03:38:48  <kamnet> Oh boy. That sounds exciting and exhausting. I know exhasting. I've been up all day with very little sleep the night before. gotta go work all day tomorrow too
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04:31:13  <kamnet> Android is a pain
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05:07:27  <kamnet> Good morning Eddi|zuHause
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06:38:02  <newbie|2> ;C:\NML;C:\TortoiseHg;C:\Python34;C:\MinGW\bin;C:\MinGW\msys.0\bin
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07:16:38  <Alberth> newbie|2:  trouble with nml?
07:17:13  <Alberth> nml is known not to work with python 3.4.0 and 3.4.1
07:17:16  <newbie|2> yes
07:17:30  <Alberth> any other python 3 works, for some weird reason
07:17:51  <newbie|2> compile the make-nmlerror
07:17:53  <Alberth> try  "python --version" at the command line to check the version
07:18:42  <newbie|2> gfxterrain.scm: No such file or directory
07:18:58  <newbie|2> [GIMP] gfx\terrain.png
07:18:58  <newbie|2> /bin/bash: gfxterrain.scm: No such file or directory
07:19:56  <Alberth> what are you compiling?
07:20:45  <newbie|2> oh,,,sorry my is python 3.4.1
07:21:17  <newbie|2> compile make-nml ,,,
07:21:37  <newbie|2> thanks ,Alberth
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07:24:10  <newbie|2> I will try python 3.2
07:25:05  <Alberth> _V= make    <-- use a _V=  prefix to disable the nice lines, and get the raw commands that are executed
07:25:28  <Alberth> at least that makes finding the problem simpler
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07:26:19  <newbie|2> thanks @alberth
07:26:51  <Alberth> your 'gimp' problems  seems to do    "gimp" -n -i -b - < gfx/terrain.scm >/dev/null
07:27:07  <Alberth> which is a file that exists at my system
07:27:30  <newbie|2> gimp is 2.8.4.
07:27:50  <Alberth> I have  2.8.14
07:28:27  <newbie|2> right,,,my gimp is 2.8.14
07:28:35  <Alberth> not sure that's the cause, "no such file" is a shell report, not something reported by gimp itself
07:28:52  <newbie|2> oh,,,
07:29:12  <Alberth> the "<" means that the shell redirects the file data into gimp, gimp itself never accesses the file
07:30:58  <Alberth> ls gfx <-- gives me    png_source_list  terrain.png  terrain.scm  test.xcf
07:33:21  <Alberth> afk
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07:44:33  <Alberth> moin
07:44:44  <Alberth> congrats andy on completing the conversion
07:48:28  <andythenorth> bonsoir
07:48:34  <andythenorth> I cheated a lot :)
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07:51:48  <frosch123> Alberth: the trouble with python 3.4.0 and 3.4.1 is only the compilation of the acceleration module
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07:52:17  <frosch123> python enforces a weird CFLAGS combination that disables some C99 funtions
07:54:18  <Alberth> ok, thanks
07:56:23  * andythenorth wonders what to do next
07:56:31  <andythenorth> refactor the 25 industries where I cheated?
07:56:32  <andythenorth> :P
07:56:40  <andythenorth> eat breakfast?
07:57:16  <frosch123> hmm, roadrunner ai is the main culprit for a lot of 1.5 bug reports :p
07:57:40  <frosch123> the ai didn't change in two years, the bug in ottd is present for 5 years
07:57:52  <frosch123> somehow it got more sensitive to it though :/
07:58:43  <Johnnei> Maybe it needs some polishing after 2 years of gathering dust :p
08:10:01  <andythenorth> hmm
08:10:31  <andythenorth> so FIRS industries use a lot of cbs
08:10:39  <andythenorth> and some of those cbs have multiple switches
08:11:08  <andythenorth> and in some cases, those switches are ~identical for every industry, except for one or two numeric values
08:11:30  <andythenorth> so unifying them is appealing
08:11:41  <andythenorth> am I missing anything that is going to spank my plan?
08:11:56  <Alberth> eat breakfast while cooking up a cunning firs plan
08:12:04  <andythenorth> breakfast is cooking
08:13:05  <Alberth> use parameters for those values, trying a small scale experiment, imho
08:14:22  <Alberth> don't know what nml does in these cases, does it optimize equal switches away?  would be nifty if it did
08:16:15  <frosch123> if you reference the same switch name in nml, so will the resulting grf
08:17:00  <frosch123> nml doesn't add optimisation, nor does it remove any, it just translates switches 1:1
08:18:55  <andythenorth> my feeling is that consolidating might drop anything from 60 - 300 switches per cb
08:19:17  <andythenorth> it will be interesting to do one and see if it changes compile time in any interesting way
08:20:28  <andythenorth> I suspect that FIRS eats most time in the _insane_ spritelayouts
08:20:34  <andythenorth> which can’t be consolidated
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09:11:38  * andythenorth kills 87 switches
09:11:55  <andythenorth> saves about 2s on first compile
09:12:06  <andythenorth> saves about 6s on second compile with primed cache
09:12:19  <andythenorth> very low statistical validity for those results :P
09:13:29  <andythenorth> we need a farm of about 100 build nodes
09:13:36  <andythenorth> which time the builds for every commit
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09:35:11  <V453000> andythenorth: how many loading stages look nicest on road vehicles?
09:39:51  <andythenorth> 2
09:39:58  <andythenorth> 1 is not enough
09:40:04  <andythenorth> 3 is a bit overkill
09:41:58  <frosch123> does your 2 mean 3?
09:42:02  <frosch123> empty, somewhat, full?
09:43:03  <andythenorth> yes
09:43:08  <andythenorth> lamposts / gaps
09:43:14  <andythenorth> 0, 50%, 100%
09:43:40  <andythenorth> although to make it nice, I would probably do 0, [20-80], 100
09:43:59  <andythenorth> define 5 loading states, but only 3 sprites
09:44:06  <andythenorth> or so
09:44:32  <andythenorth> semantically, I think the sprites say ‘loading’ rather than ‘amount loaded'
09:44:50  <andythenorth> hmm
09:45:11  <andythenorth> every time I make a ‘global’ set of switches, the total pool of available action 2 IDs is reduced?
09:45:20  <andythenorth> might be an unwanted side effect :(
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09:51:37  <V453000> yeah
09:51:42  <V453000> I just thought of that
09:51:45  <V453000> 3 sprites, 5 stages
09:55:42  <andythenorth> road hog has no loading states yet, so eh, dunno what that will do
09:55:44  <V453000> @calc 64*3*8*8
09:55:44  <DorpsGek> V453000: 12288
09:55:48  <V453000> ._.
09:55:51  <andythenorth> but probably 3 over 5
09:57:48  <V453000> hm, whenever vehicle is articulated, it cant go to the terminus RV stations, right?
09:57:51  <V453000> even if short
09:58:54  <andythenorth> yup
09:59:10  <andythenorth> got a plan for that?
09:59:12  <andythenorth> o_O
10:00:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27263 trunk/ (2015-05-02 11:59:55 +0200 )
10:00:04  <DorpsGek> -Doc: nforenum is part of grfcodec for some years.
10:00:20  <V453000> well no, just considering options
10:00:27  <V453000> e.g. I want trucks to have randomized colour of cabins
10:00:43  <V453000> and some random cargo "subtypes" like pigs, cows, ...
10:01:13  <V453000> just wondering if I can reasonably do that without articulation or if my RVs will be hating terminus stations :P
10:01:31  <andythenorth> you can do that without articulation
10:01:44  <andythenorth> just a lot of sprites
10:01:53  <V453000> ye
10:02:14  <V453000> an utter shitload
10:03:09  <andythenorth> RH will do same
10:03:24  <andythenorth> all cargo variation on one spritesheet
10:03:34  <andythenorth> then copy of spritesheet for each color variation
10:03:45  <andythenorth> suits the way I recolour
10:03:49  <andythenorth> you might do it differently :D
10:09:44  <Eddi|zuHause> [02.05.2015 07:07] <kamnet> Good morning Eddi|zuHause <-- you do realize that i scripted my daily reconnect to a time where i'm very probably not awake.
10:11:13  <V453000> I render stuff and do not want to use company colours anymore
10:11:23  <V453000> the recolouring is just broken, cant get it look nice
10:11:44  <V453000> frosch123 said something about redoing the algorithm but lets see how soon can that be done :P
10:14:08  <andythenorth> so what colour cabs would you do?
10:14:11  <andythenorth> if not cc? o_O
10:14:21  <V453000> various colour schemes etc
10:14:23  <V453000> just nice randomness
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10:14:58  <andythenorth> yeah
10:15:17  <V453000> I dont think the player needs CC if they have random colours
10:15:45  <V453000> of course, playing in various companies with various  coloured vehicles is nice
10:15:47  <Wolf01> hi o/
10:16:00  <andythenorth> I like CC
10:16:13  <andythenorth> _slightly_ surprised you can’t make it work, but not 100%
10:16:22  <andythenorth> some CC variations just suck, even with pixels
10:16:26  <V453000> I like CC too, but it is just absolutely out of the question for 32bpp
10:16:30  <V453000> yes
10:16:47  <andythenorth> parameter for your own colour schemes?
10:16:49  <V453000> I made a rather elaborate method of 32bpp->CC conversion, using ALL of the possible shades
10:16:53  <V453000> but it just doesnt cut it
10:17:12  <V453000> nah I can make various vehicles, only differing by colour
10:17:21  <V453000> I want to have only like 3 vehicles anyway
10:17:32  <V453000> so a parameter for "random" or "be able to pick your colour" fits in
10:18:04  <V453000> if I make 8 colours, it is just 32 vehicles in the vehicle list with 1 short truck, 1 long truck, 1 short bus, 1 long bus
10:18:26  <V453000> the vehicles can just change power/speed over the years whenever they visit stations I guess
10:18:33  <V453000> autoreplace with RVs is dumb anyway
10:18:40  <andythenorth> interesting approach :P
10:18:44  <andythenorth> hmm
10:18:47  <andythenorth> organic vehicles
10:18:50  <andythenorth> that grow bigger
10:19:24  <V453000> kind of, yes
10:19:29  <V453000> and change sprites in time eras
10:19:39  <V453000> also solves all the bullshit with randomized introduction dates
10:20:46  <V453000> the problem is that 64 cargoes * 3 loading stages * 8 angles * 4 sub-cargoes * 8 vehicle colours is slightly shitload
10:20:55  <V453000> @calc 64*3*8*4*8
10:20:55  <DorpsGek> V453000: 49152
10:20:58  <V453000> ,,,
10:21:01  <V453000> for 1 vehicle
10:21:28  <V453000> I currently have 55 cargoes but yeah
10:22:47  <V453000> I guess I could make less randomness since RVs dont have millions of wagons like trains
10:22:51  <V453000> so that is one way to help it
10:23:19  <V453000> also, short RVs do not need sub-cargoes, perhaps
10:23:45  <V453000> busses do not need most of the stuff
10:24:08  <V453000> well busses are like 1 of the cargoes without loading stages and sub-cargoes
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10:28:39  <andythenorth> buses need Yetis
10:28:47  <andythenorth> with different hats
10:28:58  <V453000> xd
10:29:03  <V453000> yeah
10:34:00  <andythenorth> is OpenTTD’s max date 5000000 or 5000001?
10:34:08  <andythenorth> found both in use in newgrf code
10:34:24  <V453000> I am not going to ask how is that useful? :D
10:34:39  <andythenorth> availability cb
10:34:44  <andythenorth> industries
10:34:53  <andythenorth> also date sensitive graphics
10:36:50  <andythenorth> 5000001 causes nmlc to sulk
10:36:54  <andythenorth> so that answers that
10:38:08  <V453000> :)
10:40:01  <Alberth> afaik at the end of 5000000, you go back to jan 1st of that year
10:41:22  <Alberth> can't you eliminate the check in that case
10:43:13  <andythenorth> it’s just a proxy for ‘no date is set'
10:43:20  <andythenorth> where ‘None’ has some problems :P
10:43:52  <andythenorth> 5000001 looks to be used with < operator
10:44:02  <andythenorth> 5000000 with ==
10:44:08  <andythenorth> so that explains that mystery :)
10:46:25  <andythenorth> can haz more permanent storages?
10:51:02  <andythenorth> more permanent storage = more industries sharing cb chains
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11:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try 31.12.5000000 as max date?
11:09:54  <andythenorth> I only need year but yes, thanks :)
11:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it's probably nmlc being overly pedantinc
11:10:06  <Eddi|zuHause> -n
11:10:25  <andythenorth> as it stands, some people won’t get to build industries after 4999999
11:10:29  <andythenorth> oh well :P
11:10:32  <andythenorth> and it’s not a new bug
11:12:13  <V453000> how terrible
11:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the internal variables have a bit of room for >5000000 dates, it's just he last "round" number to fit in the range
11:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so there should be no problems with a grf checking for 5000001
11:13:44  <Alberth> but any comparison that you do with any number > 5000000 is useless
11:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, yes, that's kinda the point. pick a number that doesn't do anything, without making it complicated by adding new control structures and stuff
11:17:27  * andythenorth wonders how many storages FIRS industries have free
11:17:50  <andythenorth> nml could probably audit that
11:18:16  <Alberth> in my view, you need 2 variations for introduction date, and two variations for end-date
11:19:22  <andythenorth> hmm secondary industries only have one storage free :(
11:19:29  <andythenorth> and I need that for a UID
11:22:33  <andythenorth> hmm
11:22:46  * andythenorth wonders about converting FIRS to m4nfo
11:22:54  <andythenorth> or rather, pythonm4nfo
11:28:47  <Alberth> bbl
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11:30:04  <andythenorth> ho
11:30:17  <andythenorth> maybe I can make partial compiling work for FIRS
11:30:19  <andythenorth> that would be interesting
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11:35:58  <andythenorth> oh, that won’t work :(
11:36:02  <andythenorth> nmlc randomises strings
11:36:04  <andythenorth> nvm
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12:42:37  <andythenorth> MP game? o_O
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13:40:45  <kamnet> Eddi|zuHause: No I didn't realize that. I'm up weird hours anyhow, but I figured you were either busy or sleeping to begin with. :D
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14:16:15  <kamnet> Apparently I missed all the discussion this morning.
14:16:27  <kamnet> I'll probably miss more of it this afternoon when I go into work.
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14:35:39  <Flygon> Okay. So. I'm explaining to a personal friend of mine how highway interchanges work.
14:35:44  <Flygon> I'm doing an atrocious job of it
14:37:34  <Flygon> Please tell me if this makes proper sense or not x.x
14:39:34  <frosch123> that's dangerous
14:39:38  <frosch123> they all drive on the wrong side
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14:40:18  <frosch123> welcome back :)
14:40:27  <Alberth> o/
14:42:18  <Flygon> frosch: I wanted to draw it using European/American standards
14:42:19  <Flygon> But
14:42:23  <Flygon> I didn't want to get confused
14:42:31  <Flygon> So I did it using Australian standards
14:42:40  <Flygon> Except cloverleafs don't exist in my state
14:42:41  <Flygon> S
14:42:42  <Flygon> So*
14:42:42  <Flygon> Fuck
14:43:07  <Alberth> no clovercleafs then :)
14:43:23  <Johnnei> Just a plain old intersection at 120kmh :p
14:43:52  <andythenorth> can’t you just play Euro Truck Simulator to show it?
14:45:03  <Flygon> andythenorth: My Internet is crap and I don't have it installed on Steam
14:46:15  <frosch123> Flygon: or link him to wiki :p
14:46:30  <Flygon> It's kinda rude
14:46:39  <Flygon> And is still confusing to explain to someone that, amongst other things
14:46:43  <Flygon> Doesn't have a drivers licence
14:47:02  <frosch123> no french man ever had one
14:47:10  <frosch123> sorry :)
14:47:29  <Flygon> I lack any good French jokes and I got a whopper of a headache
14:48:24  <andythenorth> slow forums are slow
14:48:36  <andythenorth> as in, “not much to read today”
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14:51:09  <Wolf01> we started to build roundabouts under the bridge instead of using cloverleaves
14:52:38  <Flygon> Doesn't work if they're both freeways
14:52:39  <Flygon> Anyway
14:52:42  <Flygon> I'm just... fucked
14:52:43  <Flygon> Night, bros
14:52:53  <frosch123> Flygon: <- just tell him that split before join is way better
14:52:59  <Alberth> nigh Flygon
14:53:04  <Flygon> Already sent that one
14:53:06  * Flygon closes lid
14:54:14  <andythenorth> hrm
14:54:22  <andythenorth> refactoring is starting to drag :P
14:54:39  * andythenorth has been cleaning house for days on FIRS code
14:56:33  <Alberth> already made a plan for decorating the new house?
14:56:51  <andythenorth> only partially
14:56:56  <andythenorth> hoping I might get some help :)
14:57:04  <andythenorth> I want to change how clustering works
14:57:17  <andythenorth> it’s failing for some map sizes and/or some economies
15:08:30  <Alberth> hmm, entire screenshot forum seems filled with pictures of small rural villages :)
15:08:53  <Alberth> with a central station thrown in here and there
15:10:34  * andythenorth browses
15:11:05  <frosch123> <- like that?
15:11:43  <Alberth> something like that :)
15:12:54  <andythenorth> hm
15:13:04  <andythenorth> is DB set and stations mandatory?
15:13:17  <andythenorth> all screenshots seem to feature those grfs
15:13:49  <Alberth> if you're from Germany, definitely
15:13:51  <frosch123> maybe they are from 2005
15:14:08  <frosch123> anyway, i literally do not know the people in the off-topic section
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15:14:36  <frosch123> it's like a on a different planet
15:21:34  <andythenorth> is it as odd as #tycoon?
15:23:51  <frosch123> likely, not sure whether it is the same
15:24:40  <frosch123> i recall someone getting offended when i said that #tycoon is the channel of the forum off-topic gang :)
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15:26:45  <andythenorth> MP game? o_O
15:26:51  * andythenorth is very bored of refactoring FIRS
15:27:34  <frosch123> would need someone to make a savegame, and someone to run a server :p
15:27:43  <andythenorth> are you volunteering? o_O
15:28:11  <frosch123> no
15:28:38  <frosch123> i wanted to play with yeti, but still haven't managed to play even a few minutes with it :p
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15:28:56  <andythenorth> MP needs a GS imo
15:30:00  * andythenorth wonders how Busy Bee works in MP
15:30:54  <frosch123> i don't think it works well
15:31:45  <frosch123> sounds like it would need a lot of coordination
15:31:55  <frosch123> trying to connect the same things in parallel doesn't work well
15:33:10  <frosch123> could work with skype, but i don't have that :p
15:33:24  <frosch123> or teamspeak, does that still exist?
15:34:08  <frosch123> but well, usually my audio channel is occupied by metal
15:34:15  <frosch123> no space for talking :p
15:34:23  <andythenorth> also there’s no big goal
15:34:31  <andythenorth> I’ve played a few ‘no goal’ games in MP
15:34:38  <andythenorth> but mostly I get bored and build silly things
15:34:41  <andythenorth> like castles
15:35:29  <frosch123> well, if you don't share a goal, it's hardly playing cooperative :p
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15:42:53  <andythenorth> I need to make some kind of ‘conquer the west’ GS
15:42:58  <andythenorth> but I have enough to do :)
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16:31:07  <Alberth> build a common connected world but each in his own company?
16:31:28  <andythenorth> hmm
16:31:34  <andythenorth> networked goals?
16:31:42  <andythenorth> one company delivers, another collects? o_O
16:36:04  <Alberth> as long as everybody has a few lines to get money from, it should work
16:37:48  <andythenorth> hmm
16:38:17  <andythenorth> we could track a delivery goal, and use it to trigger a collection goal
16:38:21  <andythenorth> have two teams
16:38:54  <andythenorth> delivery team tries to overwhelm collection team
16:39:02  <andythenorth> collection team tries to stay ahead :)
16:39:24  <andythenorth> or split, both teams deliver and collect, but for different cargos or industries
16:40:56  <Alberth> different parts of the map
16:41:25  * andythenorth wonders why sawmills cluster near forests
16:41:36  <andythenorth> found a few odd location checks in FIRS code as I refactor ;P
16:41:57  <Alberth> or you are allowed to deliver or accept cargo at some industry, but not both
16:42:14  <andythenorth> does competitive MP work?
16:42:23  * andythenorth has never tried
16:43:08  <andythenorth> anyway, it’s an idea :)
16:47:08  <kamnet> Infrastructure Sharing patch makes much of this quite easy. :D
16:47:11  <Alberth> depends on how friendly 'competitive' is
16:48:17  <Alberth> kamnet: we don't really need separate companies, it's a sort of by-product of fixing a game script problem
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16:49:57  <andythenorth> ?
16:51:07  <Alberth> having several companies fixes the problem of discussion who does what
16:53:06  <andythenorth> ha yes :)
16:57:56  * andythenorth has eaten more greens
16:58:00  <andythenorth> more is refactored
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17:08:11  <andythenorth> @seen DanMacK
17:08:12  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <DanMacK> And if you start a new game, save it and reload it, does it freeze too?
17:17:12  <kamnet> In playing some of my games, I use IS for companies to take on certain roles - one company manages only rail infrastructure, one only builds roads. One company handles all mail, one handles all rail passengers, one handles all freight transport, etc.
17:18:09  <frosch123> that's also what the old subsidiaries patch did
17:18:18  <frosch123> but you could just as well implement liveries for groups
17:20:17  <kamnet> I did it that wa to take advantage of AIs For example a road building AI to do just roads, there's an Ai that only delivers mail, one that only does passengers via airplanes, etc.
17:21:33  <andythenorth> can’t they play in the same company?
17:21:35  <andythenorth> o_O
17:21:44  * andythenorth has never played IS, but also never understood the point
17:22:11  <kamnet> No, you can only run one AI per company
17:22:16  <andythenorth> ah
17:23:39  <kamnet> I like companies being semi-autonomous, I can start building a rail line on one part of a map, and after a few years I'm bored with it ready to do something else, I've got infrastructure already set up on the rest of the map to immediately jump into
17:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i played a 4 company single player game once
17:24:45  <kamnet> And I don't really like dealing with mail or passengers, its too tedious, it's mostly just growth and more growth and more growth. If an AI can manage that transport for me, I'm fine. :D
17:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> each company serving one region, with interconnection points
17:25:06  <Alberth> kamnet: just ignore pax :)
17:25:46  <kamnet> You can't if you're using a citybuilder script :D
17:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few shortcomings in the implementation, but i think the overall concept of IS is desireable
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17:31:52  <kamnet> Yep, a few, but overall I've found it to be a really useful patch
17:32:15  <Alberth> why are you running a city builder then?
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17:33:42  <andythenorth> ugh
17:33:50  * andythenorth just invented an evil
17:33:53  <andythenorth> to solve a FIRS problem
17:34:25  <Alberth> you made a pact with the devil?
17:35:08  <andythenorth> I have a problem because FIRS has 66 industries, when the limit is 64 :P
17:35:26  <andythenorth> this causes
with cb handling in action 3 blocks
17:35:56  <Alberth> sounds likely to be a problem indeed :)
17:36:52  <andythenorth> so give each industry a UID in persistent storage, route all industry cbs through a switch which reads the UID, and dispatches to the correct following switch for that industry
17:37:07  <andythenorth> what could be simpler? :P
17:37:20  <andythenorth> I even have one persistent storage left free
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17:41:52  <Alberth> hmm, giving it a fixed number, and then skipping initialization in some economy couldn't work?
17:42:37  <Alberth> although it doesn't re-use switches, as each industry is separate then, I guess
17:43:07  <andythenorth> there was some problem that keeps tripping me up with action 3, can’t remember what
17:43:15  <frosch123> you could also just read the industry type from the existing variable
17:43:25  <frosch123> no need to store it yourself
17:43:32  <andythenorth> type = id?
17:43:45  <frosch123> yes
17:43:50  <andythenorth> 0-63?
17:43:54  <frosch123> yes
17:43:55  <andythenorth> I’m already overlapping them
17:44:02  <frosch123> your fault :p
17:44:05  <andythenorth> yes
17:44:17  * andythenorth checks docs
17:44:34  <andythenorth> action 2 can’t be action 7ed
17:45:07  <andythenorth> but action 3 can
17:45:17  <andythenorth> there was some problem when I tried it last time though
17:45:17  <frosch123> as if there was need to :p
17:45:26  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27264 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-05-02 19:45:18 +0200 )
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:46:17  * andythenorth wonders what the problem(s) were
17:47:20  <frosch123> there is no need to skip action2, you can chain to another action2 anyway
17:47:47  <andythenorth> maybe I am conflating multiple problems
17:48:04  * andythenorth reads the commits that fixed the bugs before
17:51:29  <andythenorth> hmm, maybe action 7 on the action 3 fixes that actual issue I ran into
17:51:35  <andythenorth> which is mostly done now
17:51:51  <andythenorth> the action 2 stuff might be a distraction
17:57:04  <andythenorth> any reason the industry type (id) can’t change between economies (action 7-ed)?
17:57:28  <andythenorth> then I can allocate ids dynamically
17:57:34  <andythenorth> (at compile time)
17:58:30  <andythenorth> eh?  NML spec says “Industry IDs are local to the NewGRF, you are free to choose any ID in the 0..255-range”
17:58:41  <andythenorth> since when?
18:02:09  <frosch123> 2006 or something
18:03:32  <frosch123> ah, wait, i see what you read there
18:03:36  <andythenorth> I am misunderstanding the spec?
18:03:36  <frosch123> but no, that is wrong :)
18:03:49  <frosch123> static const IndustryType NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES_PER_GRF = 64;              ///< maximum number of industry types per NewGRF
18:04:06  <frosch123> there are 256 tiles, 64 industries
18:04:21  <andythenorth> typo
18:04:24  <andythenorth> copy-paste?
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18:05:03  <Alberth> all of them?
18:05:45  <frosch123> likely copy paste
18:06:21  <frosch123> it's 256 for stations, houses, industry tiles, objects and airport tiles :)
18:06:41  <frosch123> 64 for industry, 32 for cargo, 128 for airprots, 16 for railtypes
18:07:11  <frosch123> btw, nml prints that to the console :p
18:08:03  <andythenorth> 64/64 here ;)
18:08:13  <andythenorth> it has no way to account for people like me
18:08:57  <kamnet> Does this mean Andy needs a FIRS Add-On NewGRF? :D
18:09:22  <frosch123> don't make it even more complicated :p
18:09:53  <frosch123> anyway, the ottd limit is no particulary hard limit to raise :s
18:09:56  <kamnet> MOAR POWER
18:10:07  <frosch123> could as well increase it to 256
18:10:19  <andythenorth> frosch123: or I could engineer an insane compile for FIRS?
18:10:25  <andythenorth> that shuffles IDs around per economy
18:10:29  <andythenorth> which is better?
18:10:55  <andythenorth> o_O
18:14:05  <andythenorth> is there any gameplay benefit to pinning max industries to 64?
18:14:21  <frosch123> a useable minimap :p
18:14:23  <kamnet> Limits bug reports to devs?
18:14:40  <frosch123> i still don't get how anyone can play with 16 railtypes
18:14:59  <andythenorth> FIRS has been developed since 2008, and the biggest economy is 51 industries
18:15:16  <andythenorth> really, it would be hard to add more
18:15:26  <andythenorth> the cargo limit (which should stay at 32) limits the number of industries
18:15:44  <frosch123> cargo limit is quite hard to increase :)
18:15:48  <andythenorth> good
18:15:55  <andythenorth> so 256 industries? o_O
18:16:00  <frosch123> industry tile limit is also hard to increase
18:16:08  <andythenorth> that’s workable with cbs anyway
18:16:10  <andythenorth> solved problem
18:16:10  <frosch123> though we support 512 in total
18:16:28  <kamnet> Its easier when one railtype is pipes, another railtype is electric lines, two of the railtypes are "planning" and "useless" tracks... ;)
18:16:30  <andythenorth> 256 industries, 256 tiles, one per industry :D
18:17:23  <frosch123> you can also use 1 tile for all industries
18:17:31  <andythenorth> that is
18:17:31  <frosch123> the tileid only matters if you use animation and such
18:17:35  <andythenorth> acceptance?
18:17:46  <frosch123> yeah, acceptance is also easier with tiles
18:17:58  <frosch123> well, generally, layouts are easier with tiles :)
18:18:43  <andythenorth> hmm CB 2B and 2C would handle acceptance
18:18:45  <andythenorth> universal tile :P
18:19:07  <frosch123> using callbacks affects performance
18:20:32  <andythenorth> :)
18:21:53  <peter1138> Ban then.
18:21:56  <peter1138> *them
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18:45:24  <andythenorth> so how trivial is it to do 256?
18:45:43  <frosch123> mainly savegame conversion
18:45:50  * andythenorth tests nml for checks
18:45:51  <frosch123> otherwise just two constants
18:46:31  <andythenorth> nmlc has a check, but that’s easy to patch
18:46:41  <frosch123> that's also just a constant :)
18:46:44  <andythenorth> I assume renum will be similar
18:46:54  <frosch123> noone cares about renum
18:47:03  <andythenorth> ha
18:48:26  <frosch123> ah, there are some special values for industries
18:48:43  <frosch123> so likely we would only raise it to 250, or maybe 128 just for the nice number
18:49:07  <frosch123> for similar reason there are also only 128 airports :)
18:50:29  <Eddi|zuHause> <kamnet> MOAR POWER <-- wasn't that show like 15 years ago?
18:50:52  <frosch123> actually, the special values are in no conflict
18:50:54  <frosch123> so, 256 it is
18:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so you have a patch by tomorrow?
18:51:18  <frosch123> if i cannot sleep
18:52:42  * andythenorth could patch nmlc :P
18:53:18  <andythenorth>    dfghjkfghjkl xw345tgfyuiop[‘? nbgt123467890saq2345thbcdr678ol., esdfrhyjuiklop;[']\
18:53:27  <frosch123> value 0xFF will be special for purchase list and stuff
18:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> your rot13 is broken
18:53:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: cleaning your keyboard? or dropping the whole thing? :p
18:58:12  <andythenorth> dunno :)
18:58:21  <andythenorth> was afk
18:58:26  <andythenorth> I suspect a child
18:58:32  <andythenorth> or my keyboard controller has water in it
18:59:01  <frosch123> the characters describe a one or two finger swipe over the keyboard :)
18:59:30  <andythenorth> could that pattern be made by dropping a pair of glasses on the keyboard? o_O
18:59:34  * andythenorth experiments
18:59:41  <Wolf01> maybe the cat
18:59:41  <andythenorth> no
18:59:47  <andythenorth> that just results in needing new glasses
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19:00:14  * andythenorth only needed glasses this year
19:00:19  <andythenorth> blame the pixels
19:00:30  *** myztic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:06:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably learn how to kid-proof your computer (e.g. locking your sessions with a password)
19:06:36  <frosch123> pff, the kids will remember the password better than him
19:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i was about to say that. assume your kids are better at passwords than you are :p
19:07:27  <andythenorth> screen usually locks
19:07:37  <andythenorth> very short lockout time for infosec reasons
19:07:45  <andythenorth> also I usually lock it when I walk away
19:07:55  <andythenorth> then have to type a very long password to unlock :(
19:07:59  <andythenorth> which I usually get wrong
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19:11:05  <kamnet> Thankfully I do nothing which requires national security to lock my keyboard.
19:22:24  <kamnet> Eddi|zuHause: It was on the air when I was still a kid. early 90s? Now I gota look
19:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: i think it was more late 90s/early 2000s
19:23:00  <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: early 90s was roseanne and bundys
19:23:16  <kamnet> Wikipedia: Home Improvement is an American television sitcom starring Tim Allen, that aired from September 17, 1991 to May 25, 1999.
19:24:25  <kamnet> Roseanne is an American sitcom that was broadcast on ABC from October 18, 1988, to May 20, 1997.
19:25:22  <kamnet> Married... with Children is an American sitcom that aired on FOXfrom April 5, 1987, to June 9, 1997
19:25:36  <kamnet> So all around the same time period.
19:43:47  <frosch123> i thought you were like 10 years older than me :p
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19:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: ok, maybe series just come 5 years later here :p
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20:06:02  <kamnet> I was born in 1976. I've always assumed I'm older than most people here.
20:07:43  <frosch123> ok, so i was not that wrong
20:08:02  <frosch123> but then you were no kid in the late 90s :p
20:10:03  <andythenorth> 2 years apart from andythenorth
20:10:08  <andythenorth> but I’m not saying which way
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20:38:58  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
20:38:59  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 28 minutes and 50 seconds ago: <andythenorth> but I’m not saying which way
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20:39:26  <frosch123> making a little dance? :p
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20:41:10  <DanMacK> wtf... lol
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20:41:38  <DanMacK> Connection issues Andy?
20:42:11  *** andythenorth [] has quit []
20:42:48  <DanMacK> apparently... lol
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20:44:32  <frosch123> or it's the todler again :)
20:45:02  *** Celestar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:45:25  <DanMacK> lol
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20:50:38  <andythenorth> hmm
20:51:14  <andythenorth> flappy
20:51:17  <andythenorth> DanMacK: o/
20:52:07  <kamnet> frosch123: No I wasn't a kid in the late 90s. but I was in the early 90s. :D
20:52:54  <DanMacK> Hey Andy
20:53:04  <andythenorth> lo
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21:35:50  <mczapkie> Good evening
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21:48:57  <Supercheese> has anyone here actually used m4nfo? I've been debating trying it out for quite some time for stations and would solicit opinions should there be any
21:49:16  <frosch123> haha, that's the main issue with it :p
21:49:25  <frosch123> noone is using it, except a few people behind closed doors
21:49:38  <Supercheese> well, it allegedly does support stations which NML does not
21:49:49  <frosch123> you can literally ask noone, and look at no examples, except the original documentation
21:49:55  <Supercheese> and if the code is actually human-readable unlike raw NFO that would be nice
21:50:55  <frosch123> well, noone knows that :)
21:51:46  <Supercheese> I feel like the cyclops... Nobody is using it
21:52:08  <Supercheese> that darn Nobody
21:52:31  <frosch123> anyway, grf are a complicated thing
21:52:44  <frosch123> stations are complicated in particular
21:53:06  <frosch123> the isr author is likely the only one who really know it
21:53:08  <Supercheese> Indeed, they seem more challenging
21:53:43  <frosch123> about m4nfo, i very much doubt it does help you whatsoever with a isr-level of grf
21:54:05  <frosch123> it's developed by an artist, not by a programmer
21:54:32  <frosch123> so, i would be surprised if it supports anything like advanced spritelayouts
21:56:14  <Supercheese> well I'd try just adding some single-tile non-track station bits first
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21:56:48  <frosch123> well, the trend is to do those with objects :p
21:57:00  <frosch123> objects work everywhere, for all station types
21:57:05  <Supercheese> I already can do that, but I would like them to actually contribute to catchment
21:57:11  <Supercheese> eyecandy but also functional
21:57:17  <frosch123> the only thing that they do not support is showing cargo matching the cargo waiting at the station
21:57:26  <frosch123> but that in itself is one of the most controverse thing
21:58:07  <frosch123> i thought not being limited by the catchment area was a feature :)
21:59:42  <Supercheese> I am very fond of building a large passenger train station nearby but past the outskirts of a city and ctrl+joining several eyecandy station tiles to it spread throughout the city
22:00:18  <Supercheese> many station sets offer good tiles for that, but I have the itch to add some of my own
22:00:24  <frosch123> ok, i hate doing that :p
22:00:28  <frosch123> i love feeder services
22:00:44  <frosch123> and trams delivering stuff to the rail stations
22:00:49  <frosch123> or, busses in case of passengers
22:02:35  <frosch123> [23:49] <Supercheese> and if the code is actually human-readable unlike raw NFO that would be nice <- it's based on a macro processor, i would expect that it has about zero error messages and validity checks
22:02:49  <frosch123> if something fails to compile, you will just have to stare at the code
22:03:52  <frosch123> anyway, if you try it, please report back :) because, as said, noone knows anything about it :)
22:04:23  *** DanMacK [] has joined #openttd
22:04:53  <DanMacK> Hey all
22:05:11  <frosch123> you were here before, weren't you :p
22:05:14  *** roidal [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1]
22:05:32  <mczapkie> Hello, DanMack. I just put some snow on your logging camp :)
22:05:37  <DanMacK> What are you talking about?  Never been here in my life... lol
22:05:42  <DanMacK> Awesome!
22:05:44  <Supercheese> :P
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22:24:48  <mczapkie> Does anybody know, how to change account data on flyspray? There is "data from central management system" info, but central management system is under construction permanently
22:26:37  <frosch123> afaik there is only recover password
22:26:43  <frosch123> but no way to change email or name or anything
22:26:44  <Supercheese> Oh neat:
22:26:54  <Supercheese> I don't recall there being a tutorial last I checked
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22:49:22  <Supercheese> ugh, my OS won't recognize any updates to its system path variable
22:49:31  <Supercheese> bloody thing probably wants a restart
22:50:27  <michi_cc> If OS means linux/bash or so, try rehash instead.
22:50:59  <Supercheese> Windows 7 sadly
22:51:02  <michi_cc> Or actually just hash, it seems bash it the odd one out here :p
22:51:25  <michi_cc> Then you just need to open a new command window.
22:52:58  <Supercheese> Yeah, not working
22:53:07  <Supercheese> something somewhere is going horribly wrong
22:54:48  <Supercheese> the path variable is correct in the registry, but new command windows do not recognize it
22:55:03  <Supercheese> they are evidently loading some older version of the var
23:00:52  *** myztic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:01:53  <kamnet> The Run for the Roses is over.
23:02:22  <Supercheese> yeah Windows demands a reboot to reload system variables... bleh
23:03:27  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
23:05:00  <kamnet> If running Window, when we say rehash, we mean by using a chainsaw.
23:10:53  <Wolf01> 'night
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