Log for #openttd on 11th May 2015:
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00:05:28  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
00:06:06  <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: New FIRS mechanics are nice and simple in themselves
00:07:35  <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: You deliver some supplies, you get 2x production. Lots of supplies, 4x production.
00:08:30  <FLHerne> For secondaries, you get a unit per [n] units of [type] delivered, plus a bonus for multiple types
00:09:08  <FLHerne> Old-style FIRS measured supplies per month (rather than per three months as now), and didn't care how many supplies you delivered
00:09:50  <FLHerne> So the 'optimal' supply method was lots of tiny vehicles, to ensure there was always a delivery each month
00:10:39  <FLHerne> That's still true in a smaller way for the multiple-cargos boost on secondary industries, but not so much
00:11:17  <FLHerne> Tips - Note existence of the industry-chain buttons ingame if you haven't already
00:11:32  <TartarusMkII> oh okay awesome, yea
00:11:38  <TartarusMkII> then I already know what I need to know.
00:11:55  <FLHerne> Form primary -> secondary -> supplies -> primary loops, so you get plenty of cargo
00:11:56  <TartarusMkII> All I am really missing is ideas or examples of optimal early or mid game set ups
00:12:37  <FLHerne> Don't bother with goods or any other 'delivered' cargo that doesn't ultimately end up in supplies until you have supply loops running
00:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> optimal early [if you ignore passengers]: any primary to any secondary. optimal mid-game: set up some supplies->primary feedback loops
00:14:20  <TartarusMkII> often, it seems, on 512 x 512 maps, I can't find all the things to a chain. I usually try to work with the metal foundries
00:14:57  <FLHerne> FIRS has lots and lots and lots of chains, most of which duplicate each other to some extent :P
00:14:59  <TartarusMkII> or, I spend way too much money on gettign the materials to the mill. Thats why I am tryign to avoid rail for a bit, and learn to use shorter range means to group up more thigns so only one train can take the ass load of it all
00:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the game tries to put at least one of each industry
00:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> [that is available at this time]
00:15:30  <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: For that bit, station-refit helps if your train/ship sets support it :-)
00:15:31  <TartarusMkII> right right
00:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> some industries only show up after a certain date
00:15:43  <TartarusMkII> how so, FLHerne?
00:16:31  <FLHerne> Say you're serving a steel mill, you can truck coal/iron/scrap into your railhead/dock
00:17:09  <FLHerne> Most sets consider those as the same category, so a train/ship with 'refit to any' will pick up all of them
00:17:37  <FLHerne> Saves having to have different vehicle pools per cargo
00:18:36  <TartarusMkII> hmm that is interesting. I've never seen refit to any though. Like, I've always had to manually refit a train to pick up coal, or iron, or scrap?
00:21:44  <FLHerne> Same group, same leg of order, carrying five different cargos :-)
00:22:46  <TartarusMkII> huh, how u do dis =o!
00:22:47  <FLHerne> In the orders, there's a "station refit" button for vehicles that support it (most recent sets, not the default vehicles)
00:23:13  <TartarusMkII> so you'd order them to, say, drop off cargo at the mill, then refit to 'any', then go pick stuff up at its rounds? or whut
00:23:32  <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: It's on the options for a station
00:24:11  <TartarusMkII> sec, I'll start up the game and check it out
00:24:19  <FLHerne> So "goto loading point, wait for any full load with refit to available cargo" "goto factory, unload all, no loading"
00:25:16  <FLHerne> If you enable cargodist for freight you can do even more fun things, but most people consider that to be utterly insane :P
00:25:27  <TartarusMkII> and it'll automatically refit to carry as much as it can, or like, an equal distribution?
00:25:34  <FLHerne> Or at least fiddly and confusing
00:25:40  <TartarusMkII> yea I saw cargodist for passengers and I decided to keep it off.
00:25:45  <TartarusMkII> At least until Im better at the game
00:25:53  <TartarusMkII> I -do- enjoy complexity, though.
00:26:28  <FLHerne> If there's cargo waiting, and there's an empty vehicle that can refit to carry it, it'll refit to carry it
00:26:48  <FLHerne> RVs/ships can only carry one cargo at a time, trains can carry one cargo per wagon
00:26:55  <TartarusMkII> what if there is 200t of iron and 50t of coal at a station? Will it like, take all the iron and forget the coal if there's no more room?
00:27:01  <FLHerne> You should definitely turn it on for passengers
00:27:11  <FLHerne> Yes, afaik
00:27:16  <TartarusMkII> Maybe I have wrong assumptions about it- can you tell me more about what cargo dist does?
00:27:30  <FLHerne> On the other hand, you;ll have trains coming back that were refitted to coal before
00:27:46  <FLHerne> So generally it works fairly well unless your system is totally overloaded
00:28:26  <FLHerne> It [has the effect of] giving each passenger (or cargo unit) a particular station it 'wants' to reach
00:28:53  <FLHerne> It'll only try to send passengers from a station to a station that they can reach via your existing services
00:29:26  <FLHerne> (brackets above because technically it doesn't, it does magic that makes it look like it does that :P)
00:29:53  <FLHerne> For passengers, this is enormously better than "get off at the next stop"
00:30:15  <FLHerne> Because it makes having an integrated network with buses etc actually useful
00:31:02  <TartarusMkII> hm can you give me an example with passengers? like, with busses?
00:31:19  <FLHerne> e.g. passengers from city-centre bus stops will, instead of just getting off at the next stop, decide they want to go to the beach on another continent by catching the airport bus, flying, then changing trains twice
00:33:21  <FLHerne>
00:34:46  <FLHerne> <- cargo flow legend
00:35:03  <FLHerne> You can see the inner-city bus/tram/metro networks
00:35:41  <FLHerne> What passengers tend to do is catch a bus or two to the rail station, catch a train across the map, then a bus to somewhere else
00:36:29  <FLHerne> Of course, sometimes they really do just want to go to the next stop
00:36:47  <TartarusMkII> hmm..;
00:37:12  <TartarusMkII> is that cargo flow vanilla? I've never noticed it
00:37:27  <FLHerne> Yes, see 'Cargo flow legend' under the map menu
00:37:31  <TartarusMkII> cool
00:37:34  <TartarusMkII> I'm sort of confused though
00:37:51  <TartarusMkII> How does this work IN PRACTICE? If I make two cities have their own bus service, will people who want to go to the city just build up?
00:37:58  <TartarusMkII> do I have to make special lines go everywhere, or?..
00:38:00  <FLHerne> The colours are a measure of route (over)loading
00:38:23  <FLHerne> Passengers only want to go to places they can get to by your network
00:38:56  <FLHerne> They'll prefer to take the shortest possible route, but if that's heavily overloaded they take others
00:39:02  <TartarusMkII> that's interesting
00:39:11  <TartarusMkII> so how does it work with cargo? I've never actually noticed a setting foir cargo
00:39:48  <FLHerne> It does mean that if you have two large cities near each other, it's a good idea to have a direct mainline between them so that they don't take a roundabout route and clog up everything
00:40:11  <FLHerne> (preferred destinations are weighted (optionally) by distance)
00:40:28  <FLHerne> Pretty much the same, cargo will 'want' to go to a particular industry
00:40:38  <FLHerne> Well, to a particular station, which is mostly the same thing
00:40:45  <TartarusMkII> So in practice, I'd really want busses that load/unload casually along a route of terminals?
00:40:50  <TartarusMkII> also, does this look right?
00:40:50  <TartarusMkII>
00:40:53  <TartarusMkII> I feel like soemthing is missing
00:41:17  <FLHerne> 'manual' effectively means 'off' ;-)
00:42:10  <FLHerne> Pax should be symmetric (try to have equal numbers of passengers going in both directions on each route)
00:42:33  <FLHerne> Cargo should never be symmetric, because sending equal amounts of coal back to the mine makes no sense
00:43:38  <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: Generally, the best networks for cargodist end up looking something like a mesh
00:44:05  <FLHerne> Or actually, mine tend to be small bus-network meshes attached to nodes on the big rail-network mesh
00:44:36  <FLHerne> The reason being that if you have a purely linear network, you have far more traffic in the middle than at the ends
00:45:11  <FLHerne> Because in a network A-B-C-D, the A-B link is only used by passengers from A to B/C/D
00:45:25  <FLHerne> Whereas B-C is used by A-C/D and also B-C/D
00:45:41  <FLHerne> You can make it work like that, but easier not to
00:46:10  <TartarusMkII> so technically a circle would be most 'efficient' of a web?
00:46:38  <TartarusMkII> if it were only 4 or 5 nodes, anyway
00:46:43  <FLHerne> For an individual route, maybe
00:46:48  <TartarusMkII> mhmm
00:47:03  <FLHerne> Although that means passengers from one side to the other have to go all round the edge
00:47:13  <TartarusMkII> what do you think I should set this other stuff to? like, recalculation, the accuracy, effect of distance on demands? hehe
00:47:26  <FLHerne> So if it's a big circle or busy, you might want cuts across the middle
00:47:32  <TartarusMkII> true true
00:47:46  <FLHerne> Mostly, the defaults are sane :-)
00:48:05  <TartarusMkII> X3
00:48:08  <FLHerne> Increasing the effect of distance will make it behave increasingly like 'normal'
00:48:40  <FLHerne> Making it very high will make almost all passengers want to go to the nearest station to their start point
00:48:46  <TartarusMkII> so 100% is good? Also, should I set it to symmetrical or asymmetrical? not sure what the difference is.
00:49:09  <TartarusMkII> oh okay I see what it does, but what would you suggest?
00:49:30  <FLHerne> Should be symmetrical for passengers - it tries to have the same number going in each direction on a route
00:49:50  <FLHerne> Which is logical, because you don't want all your passengers disappearing into some tiny village
00:50:05  <FLHerne> 100% is a sane default too :-)
00:50:23  <FLHerne> If your network gets totally overloaded, turn it up (it can go >100%)
00:50:38  <FLHerne> If your long-distance network is all empty, turn it down
00:50:42  <TartarusMkII> Would you suggest it for mail at all? and probably not cargo yet, as I'm noobsauce status
00:51:08  <FLHerne> Yes, since mail is just relabeled passengers IME
00:51:41  <FLHerne> Aw, everyone runs away from cargodisting freight :-(
00:53:11  <TartarusMkII> Well tell me more, does it get weird?
00:53:21  <TartarusMkII> like, I struggle to find a good way to get supply chains completed to begin with XD
00:53:57  <FLHerne> It gets very weird
00:54:21  <FLHerne> Can be a bit more difficult early on, since you don't have quite so much control
00:54:41  <FLHerne> Say you have three coal mines and a steel mill and a lime kiln
00:55:46  <FLHerne> If you connect all of them up with coal trains, each mine will usually want to send some of its cargo to each of the secondaries
00:56:22  <FLHerne> You can avoid that by setting up the network to give each mine only a connection to one industry, but that's no fun :P
00:56:56  <TartarusMkII> hmm
00:57:10  <FLHerne> What I tend to do is have big 'hubs' - i.e. all cargo from several primaries goes into one hub, and is then sorted out and sent off to its chosen industries
00:57:18  <TartarusMkII> haha Iw ill experiment with it later when I have a better idea, but I feel like some of the bus systems Ive made are too strong, so I'll be glad to require a network for them
00:57:33  <TartarusMkII> I can use trams for city bussing, and RVs for intercity, I suppose
00:57:42  <TartarusMkII> or.. hm.. trains.
00:57:59  <TartarusMkII> if I have two small towns linked together, then another set of two soemwhere else, then ONE train line that connects them both, is that a sufficient network?
00:58:08  <TartarusMkII> also do I ahve to set transfers, or does picking up and dropping off simply WORK?
00:58:32  <FLHerne> It simply WORKS :D
00:58:41  <FLHerne> I really love CDist
00:59:04  <FLHerne> You don't *need* a network as such
00:59:27  <FLHerne> If you have two totally unconnected cities, passengers will just pootle around between the stops in each city
00:59:55  <FLHerne> If you then put a train line between them, a percentage of the passengers from each city will want to go to somewhere in the other one
01:00:06  <FLHerne> Depending on the distance and your settings
01:00:16  <TartarusMkII> hm
01:00:29  <TartarusMkII> so do passengers with destinations only get created in point A if there is a path to B in the first place?
01:00:43  <TartarusMkII> so if I do have two inner city bus systems not connected, will no one ever even ask to go to the other city?
01:00:51  <Flygon> CargoDist is a blessing and a curse
01:00:54  <FLHerne> And what's a 'sufficient' network for that depends on how many of them there are and how big the trains are and blah
01:00:59  <FLHerne> Exactly
01:01:02  <Flygon> It utterly overwhelms Tram networks when a city is really roaring
01:01:15  <FLHerne> Flygon: Yes, but then you get to build little circular metros!
01:01:43  <Flygon> Still gotta fill the gaps the Metros don't
01:01:44  <Flygon> And even then
01:01:56  <Flygon> The Metros are painful to build due to the fact that... well
01:02:03  <Flygon> You can't just plop them in underground
01:03:11  <FLHerne> You can to an extent
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01:03:56  <FLHerne> I find that a circular metro with radial tram lines going outward through each stop balances quite well
01:04:50  <TartarusMkII> cute trams'r cute.
01:05:14  <TartarusMkII> I have the dutch station GRF, and I notice it has a metro set of station squares, that make it look like stairs going down under the ground. DO these serve some kind of purpose?
01:05:36  <FLHerne> The point I was trying to make were the little tube trains hiding in the middle (but trams are cute)
01:05:42  <FLHerne> Nope, they just look pretty
01:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they just look that way
01:07:48  <FLHerne> Most of the large trainsets have some form of 'metro' train
01:08:12  <FLHerne> Slow but high acceleration, high-capacity, very short loading/unloading times
01:08:16  <TartarusMkII> I guess they can be used to extend other stations' passenger pick up area?
01:08:30  <TartarusMkII> so in a bigger city, they might look like a metro,  Iguess?..
01:08:45  <FLHerne> You could, but that's sort of cheating :P
01:08:49  <TartarusMkII> X3
01:09:56  <TartarusMkII> By the way thanks a ton for talking to me about this, I've never played TTD, so to have people explain the mods and such makes the game so much more fun.
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01:10:59  <FLHerne> Mostly you just use those sorts of tiles to make things look nice :-)
01:11:14  <FLHerne> Dutch tiles for tube terminus
01:12:10  <FLHerne> Perhaps if you had one station on tunnels over another one, or had it as an entrance to a subway accessed by the platform stairs?
01:13:26  <TartarusMkII> I love that design, man
01:13:30  <TartarusMkII> are these from your games?
01:15:34  <FLHerne> Yes
01:16:51  <TartarusMkII> I'd love to see more screen shots if you felt like taking them!
01:16:55  <TartarusMkII> You make stuff look quite nice.
01:17:09  <TartarusMkII> Any of your networks or interchanges and stuff too, or loading for industries, if you don't mind? <3!
01:18:08  <FLHerne> I do have a screenshot thread (that I haven't updated for ages :-/ )
01:18:17  <Supercheese> you could check out the screenshot section of the forum
01:18:18  <FLHerne>
01:18:32  <FLHerne> And yes, that entire subforum is probably worth looking at
01:19:31  <FLHerne> I stole a lot of ideas from "Dr B Ching" on there, and probably unconsciously from everyone else
01:23:06  <TartarusMkII> awesome thanks guys
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01:25:40  <FLHerne> Aargh, it's 2am
01:25:47  <FLHerne> Should sleep, goodnight
01:26:09  <TartarusMkII> goodnight
01:26:11  <TartarusMkII> thanks again!
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02:21:31  <Flygon_> FLHerne: About that
02:21:42  <Flygon_> It always bothered me how the Dutch set never had more 'intermediatory' tiles
02:21:45  <Flygon_> eg. shelter
02:21:47  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
02:21:54  <Flygon> As in...
02:21:56  <Flygon> Like in the tube pic
02:33:08  <TartarusMkII> He's long gone my friend!
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03:11:25  <Flygon> Oh
03:11:30  <Flygon> vittuperkele D:
03:11:40  * Flygon goes shoots Myst Cases then
03:58:42  <TartarusMkII> For Cargodist, do you guys prefer symmetrical or asymmetrical/>
04:01:40  <Supercheese> I prefer manual...
04:03:52  <Sylf> ditto
04:04:53  <TartarusMkII> how come? And I more so mean for mail and passengers rather than cargo
04:04:58  <Pikka> symmetrical for passengers and mail, asymmetrical for freight. :)
04:05:51  <TartarusMkII> why for freight?
04:06:02  <Sylf> cargodist makes me pull my hair.  My hair's already getting thin without the added stress.
04:07:59  <JezK> i've been using asymmetrical, but i don't really understand the difference
04:08:15  <JezK> Sylf, it seems to make more sense to me than the default system
04:08:24  <JezK> stuff wants to go to a place, get it there
04:08:45  <Sylf> we play very different style of game.
04:10:56  <JezK> the only time i get stressed is when signals aren't doing what i think they should be doing
04:14:37  <TartarusMkII> Hm
04:15:00  <TartarusMkII> I notice that a lot of FLHerne's screenshots involve some kinds of stations that actually show items on the platforms
04:15:08  <TartarusMkII> like stones, grain, or even what looks like tiny people?
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04:17:18  <Supercheese> yep
04:17:24  <JezK> hmm i know the japanese stations do that, it's cute
04:17:26  <Supercheese> some stations do that, like ISR
04:17:50  <Supercheese> and mb's NewStations
04:19:15  <TartarusMkII> does it know what is supposed to be there? =O
04:19:51  <TartarusMkII> And I can't find "Newstations"
04:20:41  <kamnet> Morning
04:21:03  <kamnet> MB's NewStations are on his own website. Which I'll have to Google for :D
04:21:25  <TartarusMkII> Q_Q
04:25:01  <kamnet>
04:25:25  <kamnet> There we go. Yeah making stations show cargo or people are a pain, so most coders don't bother with it.
04:25:59  <kamnet> Michael Blunk does, OzTrans did, some ISR tiles do. That's pretty much it.
04:26:25  <Sylf> I want to see YETI crowding stations
04:27:04  <TartarusMkII> how do I install this?" I only know how to use the ingame downloader
04:27:12  <TartarusMkII> but ty very much!
04:27:21  <Sylf> Windows? Linux? Mac?
04:29:22  <kamnet> In your OpenTTD folder create a folder named "newgrf" and drop it there.
04:30:11  <kamnet> You'll need to unpack .zip files, but if it's in a .tar file you can leave it packed. You can have subfolders inside the newgrf folder as well to organize your stuff.
04:30:12  <Sylf> Assuming you're on Windows...  You download the Windows version of the file from the site, open it with some zip program (like winzip, 7-zip etc), and extract the .grf file to c:\Users\<username>\My Documents\openttd\newgrf
04:30:54  <Sylf> On Linux, the directory is ~/.openttd/newgrf
04:31:11  <Sylf> I'm clueless about Mac
04:32:16  <JezK> probably same as linux
04:33:12  <Sylf> It's not exactly the same from what I remember
04:33:38  <Sylf> It may be BSD variant, but it's different enough.
04:40:10  <TartarusMkII> hi sorry, had to step out, thanks for the help!
04:40:45  <TartarusMkII>
04:40:56  <TartarusMkII> so is this just him making unescessarily shaped stations for looks?
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04:51:34  <TartarusMkII> my newgrf fodler is empty- where did all fhte GRFs I downloaded in-game go? =O
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04:55:08  <TartarusMkII> nvm, either way, they showed up. woot.
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05:01:05  <kamnet> The files you downloaded from in-game are kept in the content_download directory.  Don't mess with them tehre.
05:01:16  * TartarusMkII messed with them,!!!!
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05:07:00  <Supercheese>  :O
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06:00:52  <TartarusMkII> What kind of city expansion setting do you guys recomend?
06:01:04  <TartarusMkII> I dont have it set to the default, I ahve it set to 'improved' I think..
06:03:53  <kamnet> I let it randomly select
06:05:56  <TartarusMkII> I feel like it's hard to extend the roads of towns then, because you don't know whic hway they want it to go.
06:06:09  <TartarusMkII> And if it's set to random, does it choose randomly for the whole map, or town by town?
06:07:04  <kamnet> town by town.
06:07:22  <TartarusMkII> ah thats cool
06:08:01  <kamnet> If the game founds a town as a 3x3 grid, it will always expand on that. With original or improved, you never know what you'll get for sure, but landscape will dictate much of how it grows
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06:12:06  <TartarusMkII> if I build roads for it, will they brach off of my roads, or get all confused?
06:12:12  <TartarusMkII> if it is improved or original, I mean
06:13:48  <Supercheese> I believe towns will use any road(s) you give them
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06:18:46  <TartarusMkII> interesting!
06:18:50  <TartarusMkII> Thanks again
06:22:41  <TartarusMkII> Hm, any nice GRFs that give towns more buildings to choose from to build?
06:23:18  <Supercheese> Total Town Replacement Set (TTRS)
06:23:21  <Supercheese> Swedish Houses
06:23:23  <Supercheese> ECS Houses
06:23:28  <Supercheese> those spring to mind
06:23:38  <Supercheese> Japan Set should also have houses
06:23:58  <TartarusMkII> Can they be used together?
06:24:17  <Supercheese> I use the first 3 together
06:24:22  <kamnet> Yep. I pretty much use just about all of them.
06:24:25  <Supercheese> they work fine but I cannot speak for Japan set
06:24:51  <kamnet> Most sets offer lots of buildings for Temperate. I've found much fewer for the other climates, and even fewer for eras outside of 1950 to 2050
06:24:59  <TartarusMkII> awesome, thanks!
06:30:38  <TartarusMkII> so now my roads look like this.. And I am wondering, do they ev er change? Or look more advanced than just slabs of stone?
06:30:53  <TartarusMkII>
06:35:21  <Supercheese> I think those are TTRS roads? If so they should change at some point
06:35:32  <Supercheese> start a new game with the same grf configuration in the year 1990 or later to check
06:35:52  <Supercheese> not that they change in 1990, just it's well past when they should
06:36:16  <TartarusMkII> sure sure, good idea
06:36:50  <TartarusMkII> out of curiosity, what is a good time to start the game when you don't have things specifically made for pre-industrial stuff?
06:37:20  <TartarusMkII> And yes, they do change, awesome.
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06:50:19  <TartarusMkII> Also, Is there any way to see like, an overlay of sorts to see where catchment areas are? So I can see where of a city might not be getting cvoered?
06:52:59  <kamnet> TTRS roads flip over in 1950. I think you can configure them to flip earlier. It won't show in-game until you reload it, though.
06:54:53  <kamnet> There really isn't a lot of good content for the game before 1950 and after 2050, the classic TTD eras. Artists and coders have only been coming around to those earlier and later eras in the last few years.  FIRS has coded support for earlier stuff and the later stuff, but the graphics are still based in mid-20th century
06:55:29  <kamnet> You might eventually convince Andy to update them, especially if you can draw close to his style :D
06:56:48  <TartarusMkII> Okay, that's cool
06:56:50  <TartarusMkII> thanks
06:56:56  <TartarusMkII> And about the area?
07:04:16  <TartarusMkII> And I notice wit hcargo dist on the passengers, they all rteally want to go to the 'central' terminal really bad, but idk why..
07:04:21  <TartarusMkII> Seems so strange
07:07:14  <TartarusMkII> I made 4 stations around a big city, and the trams have orders to simply stop at each 4 then repeat
07:07:26  <TartarusMkII> but it seems like there is a huge build up at the last station. I wonder what I'm doing wrong
07:10:25  <TartarusMkII> the stations all ahve hundreds of passengers EXCEPT the first stop...
07:10:28  <TartarusMkII> which has like, none
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07:20:39  <TartarusMkII>
07:24:39  <TartarusMkII> any thoughts?
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07:32:44  <kamnet> No there's not automatic way to view serviced areas in vanilla OpenTTD. There is a patch, it's a bit CPU hungry but it works okay. best you can do in vanilla is to turn on display of station cachement in the station placement screen to see where it will cover.
07:34:22  <V453000> which is quite a shame.
07:34:27  <kamnet> If you have CargoDist enabled, then you're not doing anything wrong. cD sends cargo to available destinations through your existing networks.
07:35:11  <kamnet> I'm going to guess that the area covering "central" has a high number of buildings which can accept passengers, and thus it's the popular destination
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07:45:37  <TartarusMkII> okay thanks c:
07:50:36  <TartarusMkII> I see one dock that uses fish to make food, but I can't figure out where to get fish from?
07:51:28  <kamnet> from a fishing ground
07:51:35  <kamnet> out in the water
07:51:52  <kamnet> build long trains to harvest them.
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07:52:14  <TartarusMkII> long trains?
07:52:45  <TartarusMkII> also, this is happening again, the passenger imbalance is now in differences of 500 or so passengers 0_o I am thinkign that trying to make a closed circle with the way my orders are set just wont work
07:52:45  <TartarusMkII>
07:53:06  <TartarusMkII>
07:55:37  <kamnet> They might improve some if you make direct routes, but you may likely find that even if you do that, passengers still prefer to ride the loop and go via the other stations
07:55:53  <argoneus> good monday morning train friends
07:56:11  <kamnet> morning
07:56:30  <TartarusMkII> morning
07:56:43  <kamnet> And, yes, long trains. Because nobody wants to see a bunch of short trains trying to swim in the ocean. It's tedious and unimpressive.
07:56:43  <argoneus> eyoo
07:57:03  <TartarusMkII> Also, I see sandbanks and title-less platforms in the ocean, but clickign them says they accept passengers, but produce nothing?..
07:57:08  <V453000> I dont see how is train length relevant with fishing :D
07:57:18  <kamnet> Unless you're playing Iron Horse. Then you cackle with glee every time something ddrowns.
07:57:23  <argoneus> guess what time it is
07:57:23  <V453000> xd
07:57:36  <TartarusMkII> =]
07:57:55  <kamnet> I don't have to guess. The channel tells me what time it is on every post :D
07:58:01  <argoneus> it's ideaguying time
07:58:03  <kamnet> [03:57]	argoneus	guess what time it is
07:58:06  <argoneus> openttd needs rollercoasters
07:58:16  <TartarusMkII> lol
07:58:39  <kamnet> You building them?
07:59:07  <V453000> Warning: Channel has been polluted with stupid ideas without anybody actually working on them. Do you wish to quit? [Y/N]
07:59:50  <kamnet> Nobody's ever finished making the Funfair objects. Wish he hadn't disappeared. :(
08:00:20  <kamnet> SAC made some a decade ago and still hasn't published them.
08:00:31  <TartarusMkII> Hey guys, lets expand toylan -ban-
08:02:15  <kamnet>
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08:14:32  <supermop_> re-learning grasshopper
08:24:48  <planetmaker> TartarusMkII, toyland is seriously under-rated. And the most complex default game concerning industries
08:24:57  <TartarusMkII> How so?
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08:25:33  <planetmaker> look at the chains. And look at the individual industries on how they work / look. It's the most complicated in terms of that
08:25:57  <Pikka> it's still not very complicated though :P
08:26:13  <planetmaker> sprites are re-coloured, there's different animations... and yes :) I just saw we can now have even more industries ;)
08:27:54  <TartarusMkII> hehe
08:30:12  <supermop_> even more industries...?
08:30:15  <V453000> asdf
08:30:27  <supermop_> why
08:30:37  <supermop_> i mean i know why
08:37:32  <planetmaker> I mean that, supermop_ :
08:41:43  <supermop_> that is a lot of industries
08:41:56  <supermop_> still the same amount of cargo though?
08:47:45  <planetmaker> yup
08:48:05  <planetmaker> increasing those is a lot more difficult :)
08:49:05  <V453000> what do we need moar industries for? firs economies?:P
08:56:56  <planetmaker> no clue. I was offline 14 days straight
08:57:10  <planetmaker> I thought *you* would tell me :P
08:57:17  <planetmaker> and feared it might relate to yeti ;)
08:57:39  <Pikka> it's so people can use every industry set at once
08:57:40  <Pikka> clearly
08:58:49  <V453000> oh that XD
08:58:50  <V453000> k
08:59:01  <planetmaker> yeah... or possibly to avoid the problem with the port industries and the industry chain graph
08:59:12  <planetmaker> (deliberately ignoring the irony ;)
08:59:20  <V453000> pm yeti uses 16 industries and I say it all the time that sensible system > 25478 industries
08:59:49  <V453000> :P
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09:06:03  <supermop_> maxwell seems very counter-intuitive to me so far
09:15:10  <supermop_> im just going to pay someone else to do this
10:15:37  <kamnet> planetmaker, if I remember correctly, a week or so ago Andythenorth mentioned he was over the industry limit while trying to reorganize industry IDs, frosch123 looked into it and determined it was a limit that could be raised and couldn't find a reason why it was set where it was.
10:23:01  <V453000> interesting solution supermop_  :P
10:27:05  <supermop_> its such i pain V453000
10:27:26  <supermop_> i figure there is a reason these guys can charge 00 per image
10:27:43  <V453000> but the advertisement page said it is easy and intuitive! :D
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10:28:29  <supermop_> and to be honest even not counting the software - if i have to start from scratch it may well take 00 of my time - but i dont think i can bill for hours i spend banging my head against the wall
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10:29:20  <supermop_> if i tell my client lets just send it to the pros, it will be 00, versus me saying hey i made some ok renders, that will be 00 please
10:33:58  <kamnet> Aha, found the conversation planetmaker:
10:34:56  <V453000> supermop_: I think that is the time when you just need to be a good merchant and guess how much can you ask from your client
10:35:43  <supermop_> i mean i'd love to make the 00
10:36:27  <V453000> if they will pay it ... :)
10:36:44  <supermop_> but I'm already in a mild panic about trying to pick a rendered, learn how to use it, rig up the model, and get however many good shots in the next week
10:36:54  <supermop_> renderer
10:37:10  <V453000> yeah that is sub-optimal :d
10:37:18  <supermop_> thats the thing, client is a start up in fairly lean phase right now
10:37:37  <supermop_> needs good renders to show to his customers/investors to get the money
10:37:47  <supermop_> but needs the money to get the renders
10:37:49  <V453000> I understand, we do the same :)
10:37:55  <V453000> :d
10:37:59  <V453000> well :)
10:38:59  <supermop_> so of his cash that he has now, if i take too much for the render then there is less to pay for design work etc
10:39:29  <V453000> is there trial v-ray for rhino?
10:39:30  <supermop_> i think i'm too mentally stuck to make a decision
10:39:34  <supermop_> 30 days
10:39:46  <supermop_> so i could try that
10:40:01  <supermop_> im using the maxwell trial now but it leaves a watermark
10:40:08  <V453000> I can help you with that somewhat, if the interface is at least somewhat similar to my stuff
10:40:08  <V453000> lol
10:40:14  <V453000> :)
10:40:41  <supermop_> i feel like normally i could pick one of these up and learn it, but sort of in decision paralysis
10:41:04  <V453000> I understand that
10:41:44  <supermop_> esp as there are bits and pieces of modelling that still need to be done, so i keep bouncing back and forth between modelling, previewing stuff in flamingo, and trying to figure out new sofftware
10:42:07  <V453000> can rhino make an export to max?
10:42:12  <V453000> if yes I can do the render for you
10:42:14  <V453000> if not, hm :)
10:42:23  <supermop_> i can export as 3ds no problem
10:42:46  <supermop_> all of my furniture is 3ds models imported as blocks
10:42:50  <V453000> :)
10:43:59  <supermop_> i tried brushing up on grasshopper today to replace my ceiling system with a parametricaly generated thing mostly to procrastinate
10:47:52  <supermop_> i wonder if i can use grasshopper to make trams
10:48:11  <V453000> :D
11:06:38  <argoneus> V453000 in a nutshell: :) :D :) :) :D :) :)
11:07:05  <V453000> I absolutely agree
11:07:38  <argoneus> :D
11:07:51  <argoneus> will you invite me to your marriage?
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15:00:39  <V453000> since I dont even know you, probably not? :)
15:00:43  <V453000> or do I :)
15:06:45  <Alberth> nobody knows mr X
15:08:22  <V453000> !!
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16:11:29  <frosch123> planetmaker: it's for firs
16:11:43  <frosch123> firs has > 70 industries now, the economies select some subsets of them
16:12:34  <frosch123> previously andy would have to assign dynamic ids to the same industry in different economies
16:12:42  <frosch123> which would have resulted in a terrible monologue in this channel
16:12:48  <frosch123> so i better extended the id range :p
16:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that would have been easier, if there were GRM for industries ;)
16:13:57  <frosch123> wrong
16:14:11  <frosch123> grm is for global ids, industry ids were never global
16:15:06  <frosch123> grm would be for cargos, if sets wouldn't use them all anyway :p
16:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> well, sets tried to leave one free for regearing and stuff...
16:15:54  <frosch123> actually, even cargos would use local ids with translation tables
16:15:59  <frosch123> so sprites are the only valid usecase for grm
16:17:30  <Eddi|zuHause> huh? i don't think cargo translation tables apply to sets defining cargos, only sets using cargos
16:17:56  <planetmaker> hehe, frosch123 :) I nearly thought so. And yes, I like it
16:18:33  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, currently, but if cargo amount would be extended, it would be done like railtypes
16:18:51  <planetmaker> it might also and especially obsolete the need for variable acceptance / output of cargoes for industries like the ports. Just use different ports and the cargo chain view is unbroken again
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16:20:07  <Terkhen> hello
16:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: railtypes work in a way that assigns them a random id, as long as one is free?
16:20:20  <planetmaker> hi T :)
16:20:25  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that could still use DRM to check whether there are free slots left
16:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> err
16:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> GRM
16:20:33  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, like industries, houses, objects, ...
16:21:03  <frosch123> yes, it could
16:21:10  <frosch123> but i doubt anyone would care
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16:25:04  * planetmaker would not. Most likely :P
16:34:13  <Alberth> hi hi, good point about industry chain window
16:35:00  <frosch123> same for smallamp
16:35:03  <frosch123> *smallmap
16:36:19  <Alberth> smallmap legend explodes doesn't it?   it lists industries
16:36:46  <Alberth> I often wish I have a cargo to select instead
16:36:55  <frosch123> yes, but you can distingish industries producing different things
16:36:59  <Alberth> iirc I tried that once, but it didn't work nicely
16:37:24  <frosch123> i wondered about dynamically changing colours
16:37:50  <frosch123> like producing/accepting when linked to cargo chain wnidow
16:39:27  <Alberth> don't think that would work, I often want a specific industry, rather than all
16:40:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27280 trunk/src/base_consist.cpp (2015-05-11 18:40:06 +0200 )
16:40:15  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24998): Cloning/autoreplace/autorenew did not copy custom service intervals. (Johnnei)
16:40:48  <Alberth> haha, shows how often custom intervals are used :p
16:40:50  <planetmaker> I'm a bit sad that adf88 doesn't join this channel
16:40:58  <planetmaker> hehe, yeah. Not so often it seems :)
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16:53:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27281 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2015-05-11 18:53:05 +0200 )
16:53:13  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Do not shadow local variables with other local variables in sub-scopes.
16:54:34  <glx> hello
16:55:01  <frosch123> hoi
16:58:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27282 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2015-05-11 18:58:09 +0200 )
16:58:17  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6254]: Enforce the company's default service intervals when purchasing another company. (Johnnei)
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17:18:58  <kamnet> Oh, that's a good fix!
17:20:49  <planetmaker> those are hidden ones which with zero chance are detected in patch packs :)
17:22:18  * Rubidium has a feeling he knows a patch pack that will contain that patch ;)
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17:25:13  <kamnet> Why wouldn't a patch pack enforce service intervals?
17:28:08  <planetmaker> it would. But finding it in a patch pack is very unlikely given the difference in user base. Nothing more I wanted to hint at
17:28:48  <frosch123> planetmaker: in that case we need a new category for samu bugs :)
17:29:24  <planetmaker> :)
17:31:14  <Taede> ello
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17:34:52  <Taede> planetmaker, i added the files to fs#6298
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17:39:08  <Wolf01> o/
17:41:18  <frosch123> woof
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17:42:53  <strachan> hey everyone :D
17:43:17  <frosch123> hoi
17:44:00  <strachan> I see there's a 'Dont ask to ask' policy here so ill just ask: how do you add/remove GRF's in the scenario editor...can't figure it out :s
17:45:02  <Wolf01> there is also a "do not remove grfs from a game" policy
17:45:21  <Taede> or add for that matter
17:45:32  <V453000> removing is even worse :D
17:45:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27283 /trunk/src/lang (belarusian.txt brazilian_portuguese.txt) (2015-05-11 19:45:26 +0200 )
17:45:36  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37  <DorpsGek> belarusian - 4 changes by KorneySan
17:45:38  <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 20 changes by Tucalipe
17:46:29  <Wolf01> but if that's a scenario (not a savegame) with a decorative grf which don't alter the functionality, you might run ottd as a developer, but that's not my business
17:46:59  <frosch123> it's a hidden setting
17:47:09  <frosch123> scenario_developer_tools or something
17:47:28  <strachan> so i gotta make a whole world map and build it all with the GRF's i want...and to change trainsets etc I got to build it again from the heightmap upwards?
17:47:46  <strachan> (and thanks for your help, much appreciated ;) )
17:48:26  <frosch123> you can use the hidden setting
17:48:31  <frosch123> but there is no proper solution
17:49:13  <strachan> thats cool, thanks!
17:50:29  <strachan> bonus question: are there any grf packs that contain multiple sets of grfs so you can get around the limit?
17:51:36  <strachan> I like scenery
17:52:10  <frosch123> no, some people even split their grfs for marketing purposes
17:52:11  <planetmaker> there is no patch pack which gets around that limit without destroying multiplayer
17:52:32  <planetmaker> the limit is a networking limit. And 63... is A LOT of newgrfs
17:53:43  <strachan> it is, and i only play LAN games but with the scenery, multiple vehicle sets and town replacement etc I find its just not enough...
17:53:57  <planetmaker> LAN is also network.
17:54:52  <V453000> marketing purposes XD
17:55:13  <glx> planetmaker: the question was not patch pack but grf pack :)
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17:57:11  <planetmaker> :) grf pack... there's only one. Ancient. Not useful anymore. The others of significance are all on bananas :)
17:58:01  <strachan> I have probably all of bananas haha
17:58:04  <frosch123> also the ancient one was no "grf pack" as in using one grf slot
17:59:23  <strachan> do you guys prefer ECS or FIRS?
17:59:51  <glx> ECS is silly with the landscape requirements
18:00:27  <strachan> honestly never used ECS other than once and wasn't fond of it...just curious if im missing something
18:00:40  <strachan> what landscape requirements?
18:05:53  <strachan> nevermind, i think i know what you mean. Oh well, thanks guys. Ill no doubt be back at some point ;)
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18:22:07  <sim642> I'll just ask this instead of wasting ages trying to dig into the source: If I want to code an OpenTTD server chat and IRC bridge, which pieces of the networking protocol do I actually need if I don't care about the rest?
18:22:49  <frosch123> <- why not use an existing one?
18:23:48  <frosch123> it does not need to modify the ottd source btw
18:23:58  <frosch123> ottd has an interface for such things
18:24:18  <kamnet> Didn't somebody already do that, though?
18:24:39  <frosch123> i think there are at least 5 such things
18:24:55  <frosch123> python, java, c#, and other weird languages
18:24:56  <sim642> If you're referring me to existing projects I assume it isn't the easiest thing to do without prior knowledge?
18:25:42  <sim642> I know I don't need to modify ottd source, I just looked at it to understand how to poll server status with UDP but that doesn't give me chat I think
18:25:46  <frosch123> if you want to start from scratch, your starting point is:
18:26:13  <frosch123> but as said, there are already 5+ solutions
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18:40:23  <andythenorth> lo
18:40:31  <Alberth> moin
18:40:50  <kamnet> moin!
18:41:07  <Wolf01> o/
18:45:13  <kamnet> sim642:  Here's what I was thinking of
18:47:08  <frosch123> autopilot is deprecated, soap is the successor
18:49:45  <Rubidium> sim642: providing chat with a bot that is being connected as a normal client to openttd is quite cumbersome, since it requires you to implement certain parts of being a game client. Furthermore the game client protocol is unstable, so the admin protocol is a more reliable way to get a chat bridge going
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18:59:28  <kamnet> somebody on the coop wiki should indicate ont he page that autopilot is depreciated :D
19:00:59  <V453000> hmff
19:02:21  <V453000> done
19:03:38  <V453000> asdf
19:03:58  <frosch123> what have you done? :ÃŒp
19:04:34  <V453000> spam filter seems to be too smart and wont let me do the thing
19:04:48  <V453000> we had some problems with spam earlier :D
19:04:59  <frosch123> does it detect "V453000" as a randomly generated spam user?
19:05:06  <V453000> probably not :
19:05:07  <V453000> )
19:06:44  <V453000> btw frosch123 have you tried any fiddling with the CC algorithm for 32bpp?
19:06:54  <frosch123> no :)
19:07:02  <V453000> =(
19:07:03  <V453000> sad
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19:35:51  <kamnet> 2CC 32bpp Yeti Dudes?
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19:37:12  <frosch123> how can i transpose a selection of cells in libreoffice calc? :)
19:38:01  <frosch123> ah, copy+paste transposed
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19:41:28  <Alberth> secret keys :p
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19:50:08  <frosch123> @base 10 16 198
19:50:09  <DorpsGek> frosch123: C6
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20:06:47  <frosch123> yellow is weird
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20:14:47  <frosch123> V453000: <- yellow and orange are weird
20:15:18  <peter1138> dark green worries me :p
20:15:56  <frosch123> yeah, misclicked somewhen apparently
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20:17:35  <Rubidium> frosch123: orange actually looks like red and blue swap at #5, assuming the angle of #3-#4 is continued and an & 255 is performed
20:18:09  <peter1138> And yeah, that's why using 1 single remap colour in 32bpp graphics looks like shit.
20:18:42  <frosch123> peter1138: i think about ignoring the map colour, and instead map the "brightness" to the linear interpolation of those curves
20:19:00  <frosch123> i.e. all company colours map to those curves
20:19:03  <peter1138> Fun.
20:19:29  <peter1138> Maths because artists are lazy :D
20:20:01  <frosch123> kind of like providing separate palettes for company colours and using the brightness as palette index
20:20:42  <frosch123> Rubidium: i guess it just goes towards white when red is maxed
20:21:17  <peter1138> Could be awkward mapping it so that 8bpp stuff works normally. May depend when it's mapped.
20:21:58  <frosch123> it's essentially a new blitter mode
20:22:11  <frosch123> we already have special ones for crashed/transparent
20:22:25  <frosch123> there can as well be special ones for company colours
20:22:35  <frosch123> which are activated when the cc remaps are used
20:22:55  <frosch123> ofc only when not using sse :p
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20:26:07  <peter1138> Quite.
20:26:51  <peter1138> Annoyingly remapping on load would be most efficient...
20:27:11  <peter1138> If only you knew it was always remapped with CC, at that point.
20:27:49  <frosch123> 256 times the sprite cache usage :p
20:28:13  <peter1138> :)
20:28:23  <planetmaker> :) Otoh, might even work ;)
20:28:37  <peter1138> True, I was only thinking of remapping the CC to the 8 CC bits, but yeah.
20:28:58  <peter1138> planetmaker, 256 along with 4x zoom... :D
20:29:14  <peter1138> OpenTTD requirements, 64GB RAM...
20:29:23  <frosch123> i make the drawing rather multithreaded :p
20:29:42  <peter1138> Or, get the artists to draw it properly ;)
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20:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose that's what over half a century of brainwashing do to a country:
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20:58:39  <__ln__> at least they hopefully know which country was fighting against which.
20:59:45  <Terkhen> good night
21:02:23  <Wolf01> 'night
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