Log for #openttd on 19th July 2015:
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06:56:45  <andythenorth> o
06:56:49  <andythenorth> o/
06:57:37  <Alberth> moin
06:58:57  * andythenorth must to trams
06:59:22  <andythenorth> Alberth: are you playing a game currently? o_O
07:01:11  <Alberth> yep, your firs try thingie
07:01:34  <Alberth> and I had a quick go with baldys boss game, but it's hopeless, so many things to fix :p
07:02:11  <Alberth> and he has tooooooo many engines, no idea what to use there :p
07:02:55  <andythenorth> he :)
07:03:05  <Alberth> if you don't want to raise infra structure costs, it's going to be a challenge though
07:05:35  <andythenorth> :)
07:09:09  <Alberth> Ridge Transport, 1942-09-27.sav
07:09:33  <Alberth> doing some restructuring of the tracks :)
07:09:56  * andythenorth dares to look
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07:12:36  <Alberth> this is the firs thingie :)
07:12:49  <Alberth> you have seen an earier version before
07:13:46  <andythenorth> yeah :)
07:13:57  * andythenorth wonders if anyone will kickstarter fund an 8bpp base set :P
07:14:15  <andythenorth> oh it’s just ogfx landscape :)
07:14:33  * andythenorth was confused
07:15:27  <Alberth> the oil refinery in the south has a timber yard right next door, I see now
07:16:24  <andythenorth> something is adding rocks to water
07:16:25  <andythenorth> interesting
07:16:28  <Alberth> just 12 tiles :)
07:17:16  <Alberth> yeah, and they show up at the map too, I am getting confused about water industries :p
07:18:01  <andythenorth> eh, accepting that the game allows many play styles etc blah blah blah blah
07:18:05  <andythenorth> this is the right size map
07:20:57  <Alberth> :)
07:22:14  <andythenorth> are you following Bee goals?
07:29:10  <Alberth> mostly, yes
07:29:30  <Alberth> playing at a weird map size like 128x1024 can be fun too, every now and then :)
07:30:07  <mari_kiri> 128x1024 sounds kinda fun actually
07:30:34  <Alberth> but I made a mess of some tracks, so I recently re-organized then somewhat. Therefore, I am behind on goals
07:32:35  <andythenorth> long thin maps are fun
07:32:53  <Alberth> ha, as usual with me, each pair of tracks has a different idea of which one goes south-east :p
07:33:07  <andythenorth> :P
07:33:19  <andythenorth> it’s fine until you join networks
07:34:47  * andythenorth perplexed by tram generations :P
07:36:22  <V453000> sup humans
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07:36:42  <V453000> still playing my no-newgrf game
07:36:44  <V453000> no big deal
07:36:45  <andythenorth> also V453000
07:37:38  <andythenorth> V453000: the game is good, right?
07:37:43  <V453000> yeah
07:38:27  <andythenorth> very few missing features?
07:38:32  <andythenorth> lots of minor crappy bits?
07:39:49  <Alberth> o/ V
07:42:28  <V453000> nah, not much new in compare to the original ;)
07:43:00  <V453000> I dont think I am utilizing a single new feature in this game
07:43:06  <V453000> k, PBS signals
07:43:09  <Alberth> playing at 256x256?
07:43:16  <V453000> 256x256 x2
07:43:21  <V453000> mirror-ish networks
07:43:26  <V453000> special scenario for blog article :P
07:43:58  <Alberth> for comparison I guess :)
07:44:02  <V453000> yes
07:44:13  <Alberth> and no copy/paste patch :p
07:44:24  <V453000> dont need that :)
07:49:06  <andythenorth> ugh
07:49:28  <andythenorth> Road Hog is going to end up with nearly 100 vehicles per roster (roster = brit, american, la la land etc)
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07:54:31  <V453000> so what are your thoughts about kickstarter and open licenses?
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07:55:12  <V453000> is it the same as normal graphics? ie I provide full source except 3D models
07:55:42  <V453000> does "people pay for it and support it" make it more required to provide full source? does that make any sense?
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07:56:40  <V453000> Pikka: good luck :) I really wish you the best in this, it could be great
07:59:49  <Alberth> from GPL point of view, "source" means whatever you use to create the result, so in my view that would include the 3d models
08:00:38  <Alberth> but there is a border somewhere, eg I don't provide you with the sources of my editor either
08:02:36  <Alberth> I see kickstarter mostly as buying time for pbird to work on it full time, much like you donate to an open source project. Big difference is however that with kickstarter you get the money beforehand, or at least you know it will be there
08:03:06  <Alberth> that makes planning to do this a lot easier :)
08:05:00  <Alberth> I don't see any problems with whatever you intend to do with the result. It would be nice if you decide something about it, tell people before hand, and stick with it :)
08:05:18  <Alberth> but in the end, it's your work.
08:05:53  <Alberth> maybe you get into legal trouble if you don't do what you promised with kickstarter though, don't know
08:06:36  <Rubidium> for "simple" things that are either drawing by hand, or pure models one could see GPL as viable, but once you get into manually retouching automatically generated (i.e. from 3D models), the whole GPL "source" definition becomes murky
08:07:24  <andythenorth> wtfpl
08:07:36  <Alberth> no doubt some people will want to have access to the source afterwards, the risk is thus that not providing that access will turn those people away
08:08:21  <Alberth> Rubidium:  nobody claims you don't need skill to work with the source, but yes, it's a very large grey area :)
08:08:28  <Rubidium> andythenorth: but I think that for such a large project someone does care what happens with the graphics
08:08:44  <andythenorth> well
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08:08:53  <andythenorth> maybe :)
08:22:26  <planetmaker> moin
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08:29:59  <Alberth> hi hi
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08:39:46  <Wolf01> moin
08:40:11  <Alberth> o/
08:41:10  <Wolf01> mmh, factorio is really a life leeching game
08:44:52  <Alberth> like TTD was orginally?  :)
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08:46:43  <Wolf01> like TTD is still, and OTT too, that's why I take it in little amounts
08:48:05  <Wolf01> I was placing a conveyor belt and .. BAM .. 4 hours disappeared. That was the same feeling I had when I tried to build a 6 lines junction with OTT
08:49:36  * andythenorth can’t make factorio stick
08:49:43  <andythenorth> played an hour or so
08:51:07  <andythenorth> I can see the appeal though
08:51:07  <Wolf01> the only thing I blame is the finite amount of resources, once I finish to build an industry chain the iron/copper reources are depleted...
08:51:23  <andythenorth> yeah that’s exactly what put me off it
08:51:54  <andythenorth> building the routes is quite fun
08:52:02  <andythenorth> but all the crafting and stuff, dunno
08:52:23  <andythenorth> also the UI for inventory / what’s in hand / weapons / loading machines
08:52:26  <andythenorth> is really really sucky
08:52:55  <andythenorth> off-topic: would cows prefer electric or steam trams?
08:53:26  <Wolf01> my worst impression is that once you learn how to place the industry chain, all your game will be the same, because you need to save time and avoid to deplete the resources by reasoning on how to place things
08:54:34  <andythenorth> openttd has that issue
08:54:38  <andythenorth> do coal, pax
08:54:42  <andythenorth> build ro-ro stations
08:54:43  <andythenorth> win
08:54:53  <Wolf01> that the same on TT, but there is time-related, you finish to build a mainline and you need to upgrade it to concrete-sleepers-with-streamlined-catenary-poles-and-good-looking-stations because you fast forwarded of about 150 years
08:54:57  <andythenorth> but then newgrf, GS, multiplayer also
08:55:59  <Wolf01> but at least here you have something to do... once you deplete raw materials what will you do?
08:56:08  <andythenorth> win?
08:56:21  <Wolf01> maybe
08:56:31  <andythenorth> battle?
08:58:06  <andythenorth> maybe it’s the new Dwarf Fortress
08:58:14  * andythenorth has never played DF, because it would probably eat my life
08:58:30  <andythenorth> off-topic: can GS evict a player from their company?
08:58:35  <andythenorth> and if not, could we make it possible?
08:58:55  <Alberth> pause the game?
08:59:24  <andythenorth> I want the option to kick you out of your current company and make you start from scratch with a new one
08:59:30  <andythenorth> same game, same map, same point in time etc
08:59:53  <andythenorth> we don’t really have that facility in single player (leave company), but we do in MP?
08:59:56  <Alberth> clean out all possessions?
09:00:17  <andythenorth> dunno what happens to the previous company
09:00:26  <andythenorth> maybe it’s liquidated, or sold to an AI
09:00:28  <andythenorth> dunno
09:00:51  <andythenorth> thinking of a 5-year plan, centrally planned economy
09:01:07  <andythenorth> “you failed your quota for steel, you have been sent to the salt mines"
09:01:29  <andythenorth> “fortunately, in the salt mines your talent for transportation does not go unnoticed, and you start a new network”
09:01:40  <Alberth> phew :)
09:02:04  <Alberth> pause the game basically ends it afaik, like nogoal does at the end
09:11:32  <Pikka> moin all
09:11:52  <Wolf01> o/
09:12:43  <Pikka> V453000, as far as GPL etc goes I think I expressed myself reasonably clearly in the thread, is it still rolling along?
09:12:45  * Pikka checks
09:13:54  * andythenorth is disappointed that more important questions are not being answered
09:14:01  <andythenorth> i.e. cows
09:14:17  <Pikka> I didn't know cows was a question
09:17:45  <Pikka> oh, those cows
09:18:14  <Pikka> cows prefer tricycles?
09:24:48  <Terkhen> hello
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09:25:47  <andythenorth> we have tricycle trams?
09:25:49  <andythenorth> hello Terkhen
09:26:40  <Pikka> why not?
09:26:48  <Pikka> hello Terkhen also
09:27:01  <andythenorth> Pikka: you’d have to draw new tracks for me
09:27:02  <andythenorth> 'have'
09:27:07  * andythenorth has a tricycle truck
09:27:10  <andythenorth> it’s broken :(
09:27:23  <Wolf01> whoa what?
09:27:47  <andythenorth>
09:28:07  <andythenorth> Wolf01: osprey
09:28:08  <andythenorth> innit
09:28:22  <Wolf01> yes, I know the only moving part were the motors
09:28:28  <Wolf01> not the whole thing
09:28:43  <Wolf01> that's a transformer
09:29:42  * andythenorth must to family day out
09:29:51  <Pikka> have fun andythenorth :)
09:29:54  * andythenorth shall
09:29:59  <andythenorth> also sheep, electric or steam?
09:30:42  <planetmaker> ho Pikka
09:30:46  <Pikka> it depends if they're being dreamt of by androids, presumably
09:30:49  <Pikka> hello planetmaker
09:30:49  <Wolf01> the next step will be to make a c-130 trasforming to a Macross' koenig monster
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09:31:33  <planetmaker> Actually I find your response as to the sources of the planned set a bit... lacking. It's vague at least. And IMHO not quite fit for an open-source project
09:32:54  <Pikka> how do you mean?
09:38:42  <planetmaker> I would have expected a clear license-statement along the lines of at least what V does with rawr (all sprites and code GPL licensed) instead of some talk about 'always did' and 'would give permission to someone if I were not around'
09:40:01  <planetmaker> Eddi and DigitalFox basically expressed my view on the matter
09:41:44  <Pikka> well, I've never called it an open-source project... or are you saying that non-GPL (New)GRFs aren't quite fit for OpenTTD?
09:42:36  <planetmaker> I don't say you did or you should. And they're ok. But they help OpenTTD much less than CC-BY or GPL
09:43:14  <planetmaker> Only the latter allow to bundle it with OpenTTD directly. Otherwise it's "yet another 3rd-party content". But nothing we could take and bundle and 'sell' as "this is OpenTTD"
09:44:00  <planetmaker> thus your license option bars the way to saying "OpenTTD has new default graphics". As for that, OpenTTD *does* have the license requirement eddi lined out
09:44:22  <planetmaker> which is "it has to build from source"
09:44:50  <Pikka> well then we get into the old mess of what is the "source" for graphics. If it's just the sprites, that's one thing. But plenty of people think it's not.
09:47:02  <Alberth> it's bundling perhaps?   combining GPL with non-GPL is no-go, basically
09:47:14  <planetmaker> yes
09:48:24  <planetmaker> and both, V and Zeph found an answer to that very license question which works
09:48:38  <planetmaker> and both answers are much more satisfactorily than "ask me"
09:48:58  <peter1138> V's source textures are generally not open source, unless he's changed them./
09:49:11  <planetmaker> yes. He only licenses the sprites
09:49:26  <planetmaker> which is a bit of a grey area. But much better than nothing
09:50:10  <planetmaker> not sure about his models, tho
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09:53:20  <planetmaker> Anyway, Alberth is right: my main concern is the bundling one which also Eddi expressed. Which limits options on licenses (a lot).
09:53:52  <planetmaker> Pikkas answer amounts to "yes, there is one, but we cannot ship it everywhere with OpenTTD"
09:54:12  <planetmaker> as 'everywhere' implies also in debian which means 'must build from source'
09:56:57  <Pikka> I've certainly never proposed Pineapple Graphics be distributed other than via Bananas in the normal way... so I don't see the problem there. On the other hand...
09:57:02  <peter1138> Is bundling it with OpenTTD an intention?
09:57:09  <Pikka> not my intention peter1138
09:57:49  <planetmaker> peter1138, it would be a condition-sine-qua-non for my support.
09:58:27  <planetmaker> and that's all I wanted to say. If pikka is sold on not doing that - his choice. Not my beer
10:00:05  <peter1138> Speaking of beer.
10:00:08  <peter1138> Hmm, actually it's a bit early.l
10:00:19  <Pikka> planetmaker, if V's solution is satisfactory
10:01:00  <Pikka> ie only licencing the sprites...
10:01:41  <Pikka> then I'd be happy to donate the finished base set and its sprites to the OpenTTD team to release under the GPL
10:02:14  <Pikka> in the same way as I gave the av8 sprites to WAS. I'm just not sure it's satisfactory to *me*, which is why I won't release it as GPL myself.
10:12:16  <Alberth> huh?
10:13:08  <Pikka> exactly :)
10:13:32  <Alberth> it doesn't make any sense to me
10:15:20  <Pikka> I don't think a licence which requires sources is a sensible one for artwork, but if planetmaker/OpenTTD wants to take the pineapple base set and publish it under the GPL (and to consider the sprites alone as source) he's welcome to.
10:15:25  <planetmaker> in my understanding only the textures are not OSS with V's project
10:18:18  <Alberth> Pikka: that's how I understood your gesture, which is great in itself. I am however very much puzzled why you cannot do that
10:18:40  <Alberth> but if you don't want to answer that, it's fine
10:20:09  <Pikka> because if someone wants "the source", I don't want to be responsible for providing it... call it laziness, perhaps. ;)
10:20:17  <Pikka> bbs, dinnertime :)
10:26:04  <michi_cc> GPL defined the source as "the preferred form of the work for making modifications". For rendered 3D sprites, this does imply somewhat that the models are the source, not the rendered image. After all, if you want to add a window to a train model, you'd usually modify the model and re-render, instead of manually editing all the different rendered views and zooms.
10:28:57  <V453000> I find opensourcing models a huge mess, but with the sprites+code like we always did, it is fine
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10:42:25  <michi_cc> From a technical perspective CC-BY-SA is likely to be a lot easier to apply than the GPL, but there are legal differences of course. The FSF itself even considers combining GPL with non-free licenses okay under certain conditions, so a a Debian approved license should be no problem at all (
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10:53:33  <V453000> yeah I use CC-BY-SA for my projects
10:54:03  <V453000> the problem that 99% people will have is that 3D models is a thing they can work with in other projects, at work, sell them, do things with them
10:54:30  <V453000> putting them somewhere in a free environment does not feel good with those.
10:55:03  <V453000> I am all fine with CC sprites, code, and even my postproduction pipeline, adding technical documentation and explanation to show people how to do something similar
10:55:34  <V453000> I might even share the rendering files which just put things together and render them
10:55:44  <V453000> but I feel very unsure about sharing the actual 3D models
10:56:55  <V453000> of course when textures are not open-source friendly, that is another thing
10:57:21  <planetmaker> well, yes. But that's two things. So... you feel bad about sharing models because others are a bitch with that, too?
10:57:42  <V453000> no
10:57:58  <V453000> I am just saying that I think that my stand point is not too different to other 3D artists
10:59:09  <planetmaker> sorry, then I don't understand :) So you do as long as separating texture and models is easy?
10:59:35  <planetmaker> (just trying to understand, not judging)
11:00:20  <V453000> textures and models are separate already, cant split those two things really any further :P it always will be 2 different files. Anyway, my point is that a 3D model (textured or not), is something that their authors might use in the future in commercial projects
11:00:30  <V453000> and/or sell them on 3D model markets
11:00:43  <planetmaker> yes, of course. But that is true with *everything*
11:00:55  <planetmaker> it's also true with the soruce code we write. Or with sprites
11:01:13  <V453000> yeah but nobody will buy your sprites, while many people might buy a model of a truck/house/factory/...
11:02:51  <V453000> like, from my point of view  - I am learning 3D graphics, and the newGRFs are a side-effect of that. I am glad to share those outputs, while creating my own library of models at the same time
11:03:06  <michi_cc> V453000: The whole point of open source is to allow other people to work and do things with it in other projects, provided they comply with the attached terms.
11:03:23  <V453000> sure
11:03:35  <V453000> ie someone can use my sprites and code them to do something functionally interesting
11:03:51  <planetmaker> also it doesn't mean you as author loose any rights to use them
11:04:20  <V453000> no but it makes no sense to sell such things at that point
11:04:41  <planetmaker> those people you sell to first have to know :)
11:04:46  <planetmaker> thus you can still sell it
11:05:54  <peter1138> sure it does, you can sell it with a different license (assuming sole authorship)
11:06:06  <V453000> well yeah
11:06:34  <planetmaker> and that actually usually works very well. People who buy stuff don't want GPL stuff. And vice versa :)
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11:06:49  <V453000> it is just, I see a solution from all ends, like that. But it is all the unconveniences from all ends that make me not want to do it.
11:07:16  <michi_cc> It does. There are e.g. a lot of photos that are available either under a more restrictive free license or classically commercial for those companies that can't or won't comply with the license terms.
11:07:32  <V453000> filesize to upload would just get through the roof, my local folder for graphics has close to 200GB, the textures and renders are just about 10 GB out of that.
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11:08:08  <V453000> yeah guys, idk if it is that you live in a more civilized part of the world, but in here licenses arent really care about much
11:08:17  <V453000> I guess my feeling of insecurity comes from that a lot
11:09:16  <michi_cc> And if you are worried about piracy, how is it any different to person 1 buying it and then making a torrent out of it? The availability or non-availability of an open source license doesn't change that one bit.
11:10:15  <V453000> nah I dont think it is that, I think I am just a jerk about letting people reuse these things I did to this extent
11:11:12  <Pikka> I think, from my point of view, it's slightly different if I were creating an open-source project which actually used the models
11:11:22  <V453000> + top class argument that you need 00 software to even open the files correctly :P
11:12:34  <Pikka> but publically giving away models (apart from the templates and examples which are intended to be given away) in the name of sourcing tiny sprites seems a little over the top. :)
11:13:37  <planetmaker> Pikka, but it's catch 22. Without models we can never change :)
11:14:39  <Pikka> you can change the sprites easily enough. not that the sprites are likely to require changing, only potentially adding to.
11:14:52  <planetmaker> no, I mean change OpenTTD to use models directly :)
11:15:17  <peter1138> Ooh, carrots
11:15:20  <V453000> it could be boxes to start with, I think you would be surprised how quickly would people fill it up :)
11:15:34  <Pikka> indeed :)
11:15:40  <planetmaker> V453000, 5 years
11:15:46  <V453000> fair enough
11:16:09  <Alberth> zbase quality
11:16:20  <planetmaker> yup
11:16:41  <V453000> since when does quality come into terms in opensource
11:16:43  <V453000> anything counts
11:17:14  <V453000> and with separate models it is easy to just replace things
11:17:31  <V453000> having to sprite things means they need to fit more in rendering settings etc
11:17:50  <Alberth> so far, 0 people have fixed anything in zbase
11:17:55  <planetmaker> with models available it's easy to make better models and sprites. So that argument cuts already now
11:18:05  <Alberth> including stupid stuff like offsets
11:18:18  <planetmaker> and that ^
11:18:27  <V453000> okay :)
11:18:58  <V453000> so what are you saying, that with a good-quality source someone would do anything to fix it?
11:19:04  <Alberth> so technically, it's easy to change, it just never happens :p
11:19:15  <V453000> so far it feels like zbase doesnt actually need to be open source either then
11:19:19  <Pikka> <Alberth> so far, 0 people have fixed anything in zbase
11:19:19  <Pikka> <planetmaker> with models available it's easy to make better models and sprites <- these seem to be contradictory statements
11:19:24  <Pikka> indeed
11:19:48  <V453000> everybody is digging in their own sandbox anyway
11:20:06  <V453000> I do something, Pikka does something a bit different, chinese dudes do something a bit different
11:20:10  <planetmaker> there's one guy who shared his sandbox: zeph. No other one
11:20:19  <V453000> sure, and who used his sandbox?
11:21:14  <Pikka> Zeph also went out of his way to have a well-ordered sandbox
11:22:07  <Pikka> I haven't, and would rather not have to dump 20gb of miscellaneous doodlings on anyone who asks for it.
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11:23:29  <Pikka> and I didn't see what V said above along the same lines until just now :P
11:23:44  <V453000> :P
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11:26:17  <planetmaker> 3D models are not easily exchanged between different programmes. And knowledge with those programmes is much rarer than pixel pushing. Thus the likelyhood that someone with the skills in those textures comes along is smaller than with sprites. But it doesn't make it less valuable to have them
11:26:47  <V453000> actually most program accept .obj just fine
11:26:50  <planetmaker> on the contrary. The whole work will decay, if the 3d artist is gone and along with him all his models - except if he put them under an open license
11:27:06  <planetmaker> thus any project is a dead birth if the models are not freely available
11:28:45  <V453000> well then
11:29:26  <planetmaker> probably pikka is the contributor in this channel with the longest record of contributions
11:29:35  <planetmaker> and that's extremely rare
11:31:05  <V453000> how is that related? :d
11:32:09  <planetmaker> thus for any continuity in the project OpenTTD as a whole, in order to evolve, it's essential that the stuff it relies on is open source. And that includes the models for the game content if you are interested in this game to stay around and keep up with technical development
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11:32:34  <planetmaker> otherwise it has to be re-invented over and over and the game is bound to die - for the reason that it can't continue development on the graphical front
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11:33:42  <planetmaker> if you don't like the results 32bpp models used for graphics in OpenTTD - then why bother with it at all? If you do: why not make sure they stay and can evolve?
11:35:14  <planetmaker> that's basically what I wonder always, looking at the global perspective of this game :)
11:37:14  <V453000> I guess because we are not thinking of leaving anytime soon :)
11:39:41  <V453000> I know, we can get ran over by a bus
11:40:20  <V453000> but especially seeing how poor quality comes out of "the community", I guess we just do not want our efforts to be "improved" to that picture "the community" would love to make it to be
11:40:26  <frosch123> it's like becoming an organ donator :p
11:41:07  <V453000> I am not sure if I want to hear that explanation frosch123  XD
11:41:11  <frosch123> why donate your lungs to a fucking smoker?
11:41:30  <V453000> continue? :D
11:41:38  <frosch123> oh wait, not only smokers need new lungs?
11:43:43  <V453000> call me dumb but idk what do you mean by that
11:43:53  <frosch123> V453000: people have problems dealing with their after-life, like setting up being an organ donator, or making a statement about comatose treatment, or setting up a testament
11:44:02  <frosch123> i am amazed how you are able to extent that to graphics
11:44:16  <V453000> right
11:44:48  <V453000> well then I will write in my testament that all of my intellectual property goes to CC BY SA starting the day of my death? :P
11:45:11  <frosch123> see, there is a fs task
11:45:16  <frosch123> it's about cargodist
11:45:22  <frosch123> it's very easy to figure what is wrong
11:45:26  <frosch123> just i do not know what is right
11:45:32  <frosch123> i tried to ask fonsinchen
11:45:42  <frosch123> but fonsinchen has not been around since christmast
11:45:53  <frosch123> so, i cannot even get a simple yes/no answer
11:46:23  <frosch123> same goes with graphics
11:46:33  <frosch123> you want to make a grf compatible with grfv9 and ottd 2.0
11:46:36  <V453000> well losing a knowledgeable person is something different from losing some data
11:46:47  <frosch123> but if you have to spent 2 months hunting down the author
11:47:02  <frosch123> who became a millionaire and moved to the caribbiean
11:47:10  <frosch123> it's just not worth it
11:47:15  <peter1138> lucky fonsinchen
11:47:26  <V453000> yeah son of a bitch!
11:47:29  <V453000> :>
11:48:04  <frosch123> in the case of the baseset it is even more important
11:48:15  <frosch123> you have to update the baseset with every new version of ottd
11:48:21  <frosch123> becuse someone adds a silly gui sprite
11:48:33  <frosch123> last time i did that for zbase, even though i do not even like zbase
11:48:40  <V453000> that I understand
11:48:46  <Pikka> and you need sources for every model and texture to add a silly gui sprite? ;)
11:48:51  <frosch123> stuff like nightgfx otoh, is dead by now
11:49:09  <frosch123> Pikka: no, i just need a fucking statement that says something
11:49:22  <frosch123> i do not need a statement, "ask me, if you can find me"
11:49:22  <planetmaker> Pikka, the next necessary addition could not be a gui sprite, but for instance improved tunnel portals
11:49:44  <Pikka> my railway tracks are hand-drawn
11:49:45  <frosch123> it does not need to be open source, it just needs to state what is allowed, and what not
11:49:50  <Pikka> my tunnel portals might very well be also :)
11:49:53  <frosch123> bsd license or cc-by or whatever, all is fine
11:49:58  <planetmaker> and then what, Pikka ?the tunnels, too? Or a new station type?
11:50:16  <planetmaker> and 'might be' is just you avoiding an answer.
11:50:34  <Pikka> I haven't done them yet, so I don't know
11:50:35  <planetmaker> a base set can be in need of any type of sprite added
11:50:47  <planetmaker> hourse, vehicle, terrain, gui, whatever
11:51:29  <peter1138> gosh, frosch123 swore
11:51:35  <V453000> ^
11:51:38  <V453000> shit is getting real
11:51:46  <Pikka> yep
11:51:56  <peter1138> can't do, real is banned
11:52:26  <Pikka> anyway, frosch123, I've made that statement... "I'd be happy to donate the finished base set and its sprites to the OpenTTD team to release under the GPL".
11:52:36  <peter1138> basically, unless it is actually open source, don't bother treating it as potentially open source in the future
11:52:56  <frosch123> there was no such statement, yesterday, was there?
11:52:56  <Pikka> the only question is whether that's acceptable, and it seems to planetmaker it isn't :)
11:53:29  <Pikka> no, but there was earlier in this conversation. yesterday I wasn't contemplating the possibility of my base set becoming part of openttd, so it hadn't crossed my mind
11:53:54  <frosch123> none of the basesets is part of ottd, i did not read the conversation, no idea :)
11:54:10  <planetmaker> I'm no lawyer, no do I know how debian would treat it. And I know that it's grey area to open-source only sprites and not models
11:54:43  <planetmaker> all I wanted to convey (and how it started): no open source for a base set means no personal support from me
11:54:50  <frosch123> i only read the kickstarter page, and i do not remember anythnig about how it will be licenced
11:55:23  <frosch123> thus i assume it is the default license "no support, if author leaves"
11:55:42  <frosch123> which is no problem for most grfs, but troublesome for a baseset
11:56:22  <planetmaker> and frosch has the much better parabole story than I did :)
11:58:08  <V453000> I need to ask andythenorth if openttd is dying yet
11:58:30  <Pikka> I see now how that could be an issue. A written offer to the OpenTTD team to release under [any licence] seems like it should solve it, though?
11:59:30  <planetmaker> please make the offer to anyone who wants
11:59:57  <planetmaker> thus license it properly in the first place
12:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i'm fairly convinced that GPL is not the license for you. CC-BY(-SA) is probably more suited to what you want to offer
12:01:58  <V453000> ever since people started being uneasy at me about providing full source, I will never use GPL ever again
12:02:15  <Pikka> probably cc-0 for the base set, Eddi.
12:02:27  <Pikka> or something along those lines
12:02:46  <frosch123> V453000: even factorio now banned mods without licence :)
12:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to go that far, but if you want to, go ahead.
12:02:59  <V453000> :)
12:03:35  <planetmaker> V453000, err, what?
12:04:17  <V453000> idk who pm but I remember some cute conversation about my projects not including 3D models and GPL requiring that
12:04:22  <V453000> in a nutshell
12:04:48  <peter1138> open source usually means ALL the source, yes.
12:04:57  <peter1138> not ... just a bit
12:05:07  <V453000> not a slave thanks
12:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes, GPL means include all the models and all the textures. there is no way around that
12:05:33  <peter1138> don't want to do that, don't pretend to be open source
12:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want to do that, don't use GPL
12:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's that simple
12:06:10  <peter1138> i didn't write any of openttd expecting to be able to keep a bit of it for myself
12:06:19  <V453000> well, if I spend my free time with a hobby, I share as much as I feel comfortable with sharing, and if any idiot comes up and starts being agressive about not sharing enough, it cant end up well
12:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody is aggressive about not sharing enough
12:06:58  <V453000> not today :)
12:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> just when you don't want to share everything, don't use GPL
12:07:35  <peter1138> ^ that
12:07:39  <V453000> sure, that is what I do now
12:07:42  <peter1138> which is what he decided on
12:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that is fine, really
12:08:03  <Pikka> So does cc-0 for the base set sound like a reasonable compromise to everyone, or anyone? :)
12:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> now get Pikka to the point where he decides something
12:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> any decision is better than hanging in this limbo
12:09:00  <Pikka> or cc-by-sa, I suppose.
12:09:30  <Pikka> more for the benefit of potential users outside OpenTTD.
12:09:58  <planetmaker> that makes no sense :)
12:10:38  <Pikka> I mean, I'm not bothered by what people do with my OpenTTD graphics within OpenTTD, but I guess it would be nice to know if someone's using them outside. Not that it's likely.
12:11:06  <planetmaker> how does CC-BY-SA help there more than CC-0?
12:11:58  <Pikka> I don't know. I've no means of enforcing a licence and no-one obeys CC licences properly anyway.
12:12:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i would feel uncomfortable providing a project as big as this with CC-0. the least i'd want is my name on it
12:12:31  <Pikka> but anyway, would a CC licence resolve the issues you have with the base set, planetmaker?
12:12:43  <planetmaker> yes
12:13:16  <Pikka> huzzah :)
12:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> just don't put -NC or -ND on it
12:13:47  <Pikka> obviously :)
12:14:52  <Eddi|zuHause> there may be a bit of trouble putting CC-BY-SA graphics into a GPL newgrf, but maybe just stating different licenses for graphics and code will resolve that
12:16:24  <Pikka> we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
12:24:19  <Pikka> there we go
12:25:33  <Pikka> goodnight all :)
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13:12:25  <Garfield222> Hi, I have difficulty to find this station tiles . It is not in Japan nor in Dutch train sets. Could someone recognise it ?
13:16:28  <planetmaker> Garfield222, dunno. But consider to ask in this thread:
13:17:31  <Garfield222> ok
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13:55:20  <andythenorth> o/
14:12:08  <andythenorth> peter1138: carrots? o_O
14:13:18  <andythenorth> V453000: it’s already dead
14:13:29  <V453000> gg
14:15:31  <andythenorth> for the record
14:15:44  <andythenorth> Squid Ate FISH does *not* include the 3D sources
14:15:57  <andythenorth> and anyone who thinks that violates GPL, we can work it out in court
14:16:00  <andythenorth> with lawyers and stuff
14:16:14  <V453000> (:
14:17:01  <andythenorth> and there’s no point playing armchair lawyer about it
14:17:08  <andythenorth> because there’s no obvious case law
14:17:33  <andythenorth> and it’s known that GPL is not optimal for assets like artwork and documentation
14:17:50  <frosch123> V453000: who did actually request 3d models?
14:18:05  <V453000> I would love to remember but I dont frosch123 , sorry
14:19:08  <frosch123> don't read forums then :p
14:19:21  <V453000> what is on forums? :D
14:19:38  <frosch123> no, just generally :)
14:19:51  <V453000> why? :D
14:20:17  <frosch123> maybe irc is worse? :p
14:21:31  <V453000> hardly :)
14:24:22  <andythenorth> ugh
14:24:25  * andythenorth google some
14:24:34  <andythenorth> could definitely waste a day playing armchair lawyer
14:24:40  * andythenorth avoids that
14:24:48  <andythenorth> back to trams
14:25:19  <frosch123> have you tried being a backseat lawyer?
14:25:42  <andythenorth> actually yes
14:25:48  <andythenorth> my real lawyers hate it
14:25:59  <andythenorth> and it costs me extra for wasting their time
14:26:25  <frosch123> btw. next time you have trouble with vehicle stats
14:27:06  <frosch123> you can start a kickstarter and offer giving stats to vehicles a pledge
14:27:20  <andythenorth> can we start a kickstarter for every problem?
14:27:24  <andythenorth> ProblemStarter
14:27:35  <frosch123> is there a minimum goal?
14:27:41  <frosch123> 1€ ?
14:27:59  <frosch123> can you ask for good wishes instead of money?
14:28:51  <andythenorth> eh, I have a challenge-solving app :P
14:28:53  <andythenorth> we sell that
14:29:15  <andythenorth> also
14:29:24  <andythenorth> electric pigs, or steam?
14:33:21  <frosch123> hmm, kickstarter only works with credit card?
14:33:30  <frosch123> i do not have one :o
14:33:31  <andythenorth> no paypal
14:33:47  <frosch123> i live in continental europe, i do not use credit cards
14:33:49  <andythenorth> is it Germany where no-one has credit cards?
14:33:51  <andythenorth> there’s some country
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14:34:16  <frosch123> i am used to send money with < 1% fees
14:34:24  <frosch123> all accross the continent
14:34:33  <andythenorth> probably all kinds of problems with paypal and such
14:34:46  <andythenorth> they have a habit of keeping funds for up to a year
14:35:26  <andythenorth> wouldn’t work for kickstarter :)
14:36:36  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Depends on what you consider a credit card. If you think of an US-style revolving credit card, you'll be hard pressed to find a German with one. Credit card branded debit cards are used in Germany, but definitely not to the extend of many other countries.
14:37:24  <andythenorth> :)
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14:38:57  * andythenorth wonders if steam engines would frighten the livestock
14:39:58  <frosch123> do tunnels frighten livestock?
14:40:03  <andythenorth> maybe
14:40:07  <andythenorth> dunno, haven’t got any livestock :)
14:40:10  <andythenorth> only children
14:40:16  <andythenorth> tunnels frighten children
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14:42:50  <andythenorth> electric feldbahn is realisms :D
14:46:26  <frosch123> i only drove a battery powered mining railway engine
14:46:37  <frosch123> the rest was diesel
14:47:54  <andythenorth> V453000: don’t really like steampunk, but there’s some neat stuff here if you dig around
14:48:49  <V453000> meh
14:50:23  <andythenorth> clearly you liked it :P
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15:33:37  * andythenorth does a steam tram
15:33:54  <andythenorth> fascinating news
15:34:08  <Wolf01> yay, finally made the cell phone in terraria \o/
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18:00:09  <andythenorth> is there any reason
18:00:25  <andythenorth> why RVs couldn’t just drive through vehicles in front, rather than needing to overtake?
18:03:20  <Wolf01> like TTD?
18:07:34  <andythenorth> can’t remember :)
18:08:03  <Wolf01> in TTD vehicles piled up in front of the drive-in roas stops
18:08:25  <Wolf01> infinite vehicles in one tile :D
18:09:08  <Wolf01> then queuing (with quantum effects) happened
18:09:58  <Alberth> andythenorth: those RVs are called 'ships'
18:10:27  <andythenorth> that’s where I got the idea :P
18:10:40  <andythenorth> that and Eddi’s comment that overtaking is a Hard Problem
18:12:34  <Sylf> so, we can build canal graphics that look like roads, and ships that look like RVs?
18:12:53  <Sylf> the only issue is the docks looking like RV stations :P
18:12:57  <Wolf01> yeah why not
18:13:43  <Sylf> and how to force buildings to build around canals
18:15:27  <Wolf01> just go to venice and give a look
18:18:55  <Sylf> or many other cities around the world as the sea level rise :P
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18:42:56  <V453000> HOLY SHIT SYLF WHAT AN IDEA
18:43:23  <Sylf> lol shit
18:43:28  <Sylf> I gave V an idea
18:43:34  <Sylf> bombshell idea
18:43:58  <V453000> world will never be the same now
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18:45:02  <V453000> nah I am just downscaling everything in the game at the moment :P
18:45:05  <V453000> it works SO great
18:45:10  <V453000> smaller trees = no need to X all the time
18:45:20  <V453000> smaller buildings = nicer towns, space around buildings
18:45:43  <V453000> smaller vehicles = more reasonable scale
18:45:55  <V453000> the plan of DOOM was to make shit ultra huge
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18:46:05  <V453000> but the "right" solution currently seems to be to make everything smaller
18:46:51  <V453000> with the x4 zoom available from 3D renders, you can still make it bigger
18:47:02  <V453000> but x1 remains best for buildings
18:47:09  <V453000> -s
18:47:17  <frosch> longer vehicles by making everything else smaller? :p
18:47:42  <V453000> well vehicles do keep length only, not width or height
18:47:58  <frosch> so they fit under bridges
18:48:04  <V453000> that too
18:48:10  <frosch> and you can have big cargo piles between platforms
18:48:21  <V453000> but the biggest wtf is the thing Pikka defines as "chibby" - everything is too short, fat and weird ass
18:49:10  <V453000> honestly, as a 3D person the initial idea is "render it as large as you fucking can, you spent a lot of time doing the models, might as well make the most out of it for the game"
18:49:17  <V453000> but ultimately, the game needs downscaling
18:49:23  <V453000> with zoom levels available, it is no issue
18:49:31  <V453000> of course as long as x1 looks good
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19:00:10  * andythenorth chibis V453000
19:01:49  <andythenorth> Road Hog now 72 vehicles
19:01:57  <andythenorth> do I get the high score?
19:06:53  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> why RVs couldn’t just drive through vehicles in front, rather than needing to overtake? <-- it would make RVs really boring, i think
19:07:18  <andythenorth> compared to having all vehicles in a generation have same speed?
19:07:32  <andythenorth> which is where Road Hog will end up, for articulated vehicles at least
19:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i see no problem with that
19:07:56  <andythenorth> there is no purpose to having some articulated RVs be higher speed than others
19:08:05  <andythenorth> maybe that’s a non-problem
19:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but part of the "interestingness" of RVs comes from cities becoming too crowded to handle the traffic
19:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that just goes away and you can spam as many RVs as you want, and they just pile up at the station as zero-space vehicles
19:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no traffic jams to fiddle around with (and get annoyed by the game not providing tools for load balancing)
19:14:04  <andythenorth> ha
19:14:06  <andythenorth> fair point
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19:51:40  * Supercheese debates donating to Pineapple graphics
19:54:07  * andythenorth didn’t debate it
19:57:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what i'm trying to say is: make road vehicles more like trains wrt options and fiddling, and not dumb them down to the level of ships
19:59:05  <andythenorth> I agree, but do you have any specific ideas? o-O
19:59:06  <andythenorth> o_O
20:00:38  <frosch> choose the specs so that speed does not matter as much?
20:01:14  <frosch> just make them all slow :)
20:01:37  <frosch> make all vehicles of the same generation the same speed
20:02:46  <andythenorth> pretty much
20:02:54  <andythenorth> except the express trucks, which can overtake
20:03:49  <andythenorth> FWIW (not much probably), designing the tram part of Road Hog is a shitload easier than the proper RVs
20:04:06  <andythenorth> especially now I abandoned the idea that trams progress to RVs
20:04:23  <andythenorth> no need to consider overtaking or roadstop type
20:06:06  <andythenorth> all the possible choices for proper RVs are flawed, so the design is now based on ‘what sprites exist already’ :P
20:12:49  <andythenorth> bye
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21:04:48  <Terkhen> good night
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21:36:01  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:04:09  <Sylf>
23:04:20  <Sylf> binaries mirror site seems to be having a problem
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23:04:57  <Sylf> or should I say, mirror gateway?
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23:07:04  <Rejf> shirish: this one is working
23:07:14  <Rejf> i mean, Sylf
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23:14:15  <Sylf> yup, thanks, I pointed the OP to the mirror sites
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