Log for #openttd on 25th July 2015:
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06:38:03  <andythenorth> o/
06:38:07  <Zuu> Hello
06:40:01  <andythenorth> BeeContent: the goals are really undemanding and relaxing
06:40:27  <andythenorth> BeeHappy: we draw an ASCII art bee in the story book, and give it a sad or happy face
06:41:09  <Alberth> goal:  deliver 0 tonnes of coal to any power plant
06:41:26  <andythenorth> BeeAlone: get rid of all the AI competitors
06:43:02  <andythenorth> more seriously, but I don’t know if it’s a dumb idea yet...
06:43:36  <andythenorth> frosch’s JSON proposal might let a secondary industry specify how much supply it needs to make 400t of cargo / month
06:43:37  <Zuu> I've uploaded the GS here:
06:43:53  <Alberth> it's a quite traditional TTD goal, I think
06:44:02  <Zuu> The NewGRF is here:
06:44:10  <andythenorth> if the GS knows how many industries are on the map, and how much cargo the secondaries want
06:44:21  <andythenorth> then it can instruct the primaries to produce the correct amount
06:44:26  <andythenorth> which might be terrible, or might be quite neat
06:44:54  <andythenorth> it results in something like supply / demand economy, or contracts, but without needing complicated mechanics
06:44:59  <Alberth> it's scary at least :)
06:45:00  <Zuu> But now I try to add upgradable secondaries. I think of some simple way to increase output/input ratio.
06:46:06  <andythenorth> Zuu: looks plausible
06:46:15  <Zuu> andythenorth: How do we know how much cargo that secondaries want? Just enough to fulfill what is being transported away + some extra to allow slowly growing production?
06:46:31  <andythenorth> I think the actual value is subject to player choice
06:46:50  <andythenorth> for my games, I want a ‘normal’ industry production to fill 1 or 2 trains / month
06:46:59  <andythenorth> which makes nice manageable networks
06:47:07  <Zuu> produced_cargo_waiting_1 * (LOAD_PERM(0) & 0xFFFF) / 256,   <--- if GS set 0, will it be zero output from the industry?
06:47:16  <andythenorth> then I try to get some industries to 1,000t or 2,000t / month, which is quite hard in FIRS
06:47:48  <andythenorth> Zuu: it will be 0 IFF the industry has had any default production disabled (in the produced amount property)
06:48:07  <andythenorth> if you’re modifying default secondaries, that should be fine
06:48:22  * andythenorth looks for the actual property name
06:48:24  <Zuu> I only work with default industries, trying to modify them as little as possible.
06:48:44  <Zuu> Not trying to make an industry NewGRF and avoiding doing graphics. :-)
06:49:16  <andythenorth> I think you want waiting_cargo_1 not produced_cargo_waiting_1
06:49:29  <andythenorth> unless I misunderstand your objective :)
06:50:08  <andythenorth> and you might need to clear the stockpile, can’t remember
06:50:46  <Zuu> Oh, yes waiting_cargo_1 makes much more sense, or it will be an infinity machine only with thet problem that it cannot be started. :-)
06:52:16  <Zuu> There is a stop_accept_cargo callback, but I would expect it to not be set for the default industries.
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06:54:29  <Zuu> Hmm, btw to make industries climate aware, do you enclose the whole item in an if-statement? I found that on world generation, there is no problem, but I can fund eg. battery farm in tropic climate.
06:55:33  <__ln__> batteries grow best in the tropic
06:57:57  <andythenorth> Zuu: yes, wrap the item block with an if
06:58:28  <Zuu> Hmm, my macro-ish for-loop quickly become to inflexible :-/
06:58:34  <andythenorth> yeah that happens :)
06:58:59  <andythenorth> hence python or similar
06:59:04  <Zuu> yeah
06:59:16  <andythenorth> lack of loop control was a big - for CPP macros
06:59:21  <Zuu> No point in implementing your own language if it need to be that complex.
06:59:42  * andythenorth ponders
06:59:51  <andythenorth> ‘foo steel mill has a contract with bar coal mine'
07:00:21  <andythenorth> ‘bar coal mine will produce 200t / month, but will stop producing if foo steel mill does not receive 200t coal / month'
07:00:38  <andythenorth> we can’t track cargo, but we can track delivery :P
07:01:01  <andythenorth> and also there’s a meta-game there, where players work out how to subvert the script
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07:02:23  <Zuu> If you make them beleive we track delivery from A to B, then it work as long as the illusion holds. :-)
07:07:39  <andythenorth> ha
07:07:51  <andythenorth> given the number of resilient myths about how OpenTTD works
07:07:56  <andythenorth> that is possible :)
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07:52:21  <Zuu> Secondary industries still has a base production with this NML. When supplied they can produce insane amount of output. It also seem that input just pile up. Do anyone has a clue?
07:52:50  <Zuu> FYI, this happen even before GS has touched the industry.
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07:57:17  <Zuu> Hmm, the produce_cargo_arrival callback doesn't show up in the inspector. How is that..
07:58:54  <Supercheese> the newgrf dev window sometimes is wonky
08:00:09  <Zuu> I belive more that my noobness in nml/newgrf is the cause .-)
08:00:40  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a combination of both :p
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08:37:34  <andythenorth> Zuu: you need to clear the cargo from the stockpile explicitly
08:37:39  <andythenorth> can’t remember how
08:37:48  <andythenorth> but you choose how much waiting cargo to consume as part of the production cb
08:38:00  <andythenorth> tbh I find the nfo docs more useful on this than nml
08:38:13  <Zuu> I couldn't find the docs about the production cb. But I didn't look at nfo.
08:38:39  <andythenorth>
08:39:08  <Zuu> Also, do you understand, why it produces a base production. Eg. paper mill produces 40 or 50 items/moth without any supply.
08:39:12  <andythenorth> looking
08:39:25  <andythenorth> nml docs are good, but takes me a long time to find anything
08:39:34  <andythenorth> there’s clear structure, but it’s not the way my brain works
08:39:41  <andythenorth> and search is non-functional
08:40:01  <andythenorth> ok set input_multiplier_1 and such to 0
08:40:05  <Zuu> And I you have to remember where you found some useful list. :-)
08:40:09  <andythenorth> should clear the default production out
08:40:21  <andythenorth> there are input_multiplier_1
08:40:44  <andythenorth> Alberth: so did you write a page of nml text, or diverted?
08:40:46  <andythenorth> o_O
08:41:25  <Alberth> ?
08:42:42  <andythenorth> I got the impression yesterday you were about to write down a minor rant or spec
08:42:47  <andythenorth> maybe I misunderstood :)
08:43:44  <Zuu> Hmm, do any of the default industries produce more than one output cargo?
08:43:52  <Zuu> I mean among secondaries.
08:43:58  <Zuu> I don't think so?
08:44:02  <andythenorth> not iirc
08:44:48  <Zuu> That makes it easier. I saw I had linked input cargo 1 to output 1 and input cargo 2 to output 2. Where it should be input 1+2+3 => output 1.
08:44:49  <Alberth> farms?
08:45:09  <Zuu> Farms have no input
08:45:45  <Alberth> oh, I missed that pre-condition :)
08:46:35  <Zuu> But I had to add a special condition to handle that they produce 2 cargos. And for oil rig as well.
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08:48:18  <andythenorth> bob
08:48:31  <andythenorth> haz pie?
08:58:54  <Pikka> nein
08:59:02  <Pikka> no pie for thou
08:59:12  <Supercheese> you can have π though
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09:12:07  <andythenorth> 10% eh pikkas, not bad :)
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09:15:33  <Pikka> yeah, I can take some comfort from it not being a total failure :)
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09:54:34  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: snow will be red, covered in unicorn blood
10:04:20  <V453000> !
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10:06:15  <Alberth> a nice watery blue could work too, as snow is very cold
10:07:10  <V453000> will see
10:07:16  <V453000> got some ideas already ;(
10:07:23  <Alberth> :)
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10:08:02  <Alberth> You are much better at colours than me :)
10:08:53  <V453000> I just do random shit really
10:09:36  <Alberth> it's not totally random imho, but close enough :)
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10:11:02  <andythenorth> silly disconnections
10:14:00  <Alberth> client disconnecting, or laptop sleeping?
10:14:42  <andythenorth> client
10:14:58  <Alberth> it's not a timeout normally, so your machine is likely to disconnect things by itself rather than the network finding you're no responding
10:15:10  <Alberth> *not
10:21:13  <andythenorth> it’s a flakey client sometimes
10:21:17  <andythenorth> or flakey OS X wifi
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10:27:04  <andythenorth> BumbleBee: build really meandering routes
10:28:32  <Zuu> I have a callback extra_text_industry, which refer a switch that set a text. Do I need to do anything to invalidate the text, when production changes?
10:28:58  <andythenorth> you want to change the text every time production changes?
10:29:17  <Zuu> Or actually, it is when the permanent store changes. So maybe it is something my source code patch should call..
10:29:29  <andythenorth> I don’t know when cb34(?) runs
10:29:31  * andythenorth looks
10:29:58  <andythenorth> eh it’s 3A
10:30:11  * andythenorth leeted A into 4 :(
10:30:46  <andythenorth> docs don’t say what triggers it, but it triggers frequently in my experience
10:30:47  <andythenorth>
10:30:52  <Zuu> For primaries, it would just be a level-indicator. But for secondaries, it is more useful to see what level it is at. Though it is still available via the inspector. So it is more for estetic purpose.
10:31:45  <andythenorth> unless you have a limited range of values, you’ll need the text stack
10:32:11  <andythenorth> you can switch to different strings by reading the production level register
10:32:24  <andythenorth> or you can put the value for current level into a string dynamically
10:33:02  <andythenorth> iirc, there are some subtle differences between newgrf and GS text handling
10:33:04  <Zuu> I made it like this:
10:33:14  <Zuu> (the callback)
10:33:48  <andythenorth> that looks ok to me
10:34:10  <Zuu> It works fine at first, but then the string doesn't change when I upgrade an industry. :-s
10:34:43  <Zuu> I did try close + open the GUI window.
10:36:49  <andythenorth> hmm, industry_cmd.cpp or such probably knows the triggers
10:36:57  <Zuu> I may drop it though. Not really necessary as you can look at the persistent store and see how many steps it has raised from 512 :-)
10:37:01  <andythenorth> I think 3A is called quite often
10:37:25  <Zuu> Ok
10:37:26  <andythenorth> but it might indicate that we need a trigger for the GS cb
10:37:34  <andythenorth> I am out of my depth on this tbh
10:37:46  <andythenorth> frosch probably can explain better
10:38:13  <Zuu> The GS cb do not trigger anything other than the prod change callback as I ditched everything that didn't seem necessary to do exactly that. :-)
10:40:46  * andythenorth bbl
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10:51:48  <frosch123> SQInteger is actually no integer, is it?
10:52:29  <frosch123> ScriptEventAdminPort::GetObject seems to return an arbitrary squirrel object
10:52:47  <Zuu> Hmm not sure
10:53:44  <frosch123> ah, nvm, it's actually a pure return value to squirrel, not the actual function result
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11:59:37  <Zuu> andythenorth: The reason why the text didn't appear to update was due to the NewGRF was coded so that integer division caused it to only display factors of 33 %. At the same time GS used 128 instead of 256 as multiplier for each level, causing industry to raise to 116 instead of 133%, which was not displayed.
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12:33:22  <Zuu> I fullfilled a mail goal for town "Storstad" which has now upgraded the forest in the picture which will help me fulfil the goal for the sawmill. When that happens, the sawmill will be upgraded.
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12:35:05  <Alberth> looks spiffy :)
12:36:06  <Zuu> It is all commited and pushed to devzone :-)
12:37:28  <ade> ade@ade-desktop ~/Downloads/opengfx $ make
12:37:28  <ade> [VCS] Makefile.vcs
12:37:28  <ade> [VCS] Makefile.vcs
12:37:28  <ade> [CPP] ogfx1_base.nml
12:37:28  <ade> [LNG] custom_tags.txt
12:37:29  <ade> [NML] ogfx1_base.grf
12:37:30  <ade> Traceback (most recent call last):
12:37:32  <ade>   File "/usr/local/bin/nmlc", line 5, in <module>
12:37:34  <ade>     from pkg_resources import load_entry_point
12:37:37  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 2749, in <module>
12:37:39  <ade>     working_set = WorkingSet._build_master()
12:37:40  <Zuu> Though you still need the patch, so I will not add it to bananas.
12:37:41  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 444, in _build_master
12:37:43  <ade>     ws.require(__requires__)
12:37:45  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 725, in require
12:37:47  <ade>     needed = self.resolve(parse_requirements(requirements))
12:37:49  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 628, in resolve
12:37:51  <ade>     raise DistributionNotFound(req)
12:37:52  <Zuu> ade: Please use a pastebin
12:37:53  <ade> pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: nml==0.4.1
12:37:55  <ade> make: *** [ogfx1_base.grf] Error 1
12:37:59  <ade> ade@ade-desktop ~/Downloads/opengfx $
12:38:07  <Zuu> Eg.
12:38:29  <ade> oh..thanks to zuu
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12:41:45  <Alberth> what does   nmlc --version    say?
12:42:36  <ade> nmlc --version
12:42:37  <ade> Traceback (most recent call last):
12:42:37  <ade>   File "/usr/local/bin/nmlc", line 5, in <module>
12:42:37  <ade>     from pkg_resources import load_entry_point
12:42:37  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 2749, in <module>
12:42:37  <ade>     working_set = WorkingSet._build_master()
12:42:39  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 444, in _build_master
12:42:39  <Zuu> It is a bit illogical perhaps to have factories with 100% efficiency that then go up to 133% etc. Would look better if they started at eg. 33%.
12:42:41  <ade>     ws.require(__requires__)
12:42:43  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 725, in require
12:42:45  <ade>     needed = self.resolve(parse_requirements(requirements))
12:42:47  <ade>   File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/", line 628, in resolve
12:42:47  <Alberth> euhm, pastebin!
12:42:49  <ade>     raise DistributionNotFound(req)
12:42:51  <ade> pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: nml==0.4.1
12:44:23  <Zuu> One possibility is that the NewGRF just define 5 or 8 "levels" and the GS tell it what level to use and it is up to the NewGRF what actual production that corresponds to. Then show in text "industry level 1", "industry level 2" etc.
12:44:54  <Alberth> sounds better indeed than 100+%  :)
12:45:29  <Zuu> And I think in this case less is more. Eg. just a few clear steps the industry can operate on.
12:46:35  <Alberth> yeah, it's much easier to extend later when it's clear where the pain is
12:47:54  <Zuu> That said, I think it is sort of ready for play test at the moment. Divide the % with 33 and you have the levels.
12:50:01  <ade> sudo apt-get install python-setuptools????
12:50:26  <Alberth> ade: I don't know, please pot a pastebin link with the error
12:50:31  <Alberth> *post
12:51:31  <Zuu> Hmm... though I have some bug which I beleive is in the GS that cause some industries to drop to 33 %. Which should not happen. :-)
12:51:36  <Alberth> and the command you types
12:51:39  <Alberth> *typed
12:52:17  <frosch123> Zuu: it's the random production callback :)
12:52:23  <frosch123> if it triggers, it resets the gs data to 0 :)
12:53:44  <Zuu> Oh yes. The GS set it back to saved value every 5 day, but only for industries that has been upgraded. Those who was never upgraded, are assumed to stay as they are, which they don't. :-)
12:54:55  <Zuu> I probably should get a bit to tell the NewGRF that I'm a GS.
12:55:24  <Zuu> Not the close bit though, but another.
12:57:53  <Zuu> That will be for later though.
13:01:31  <Zuu> Having the GS update all industries often, would result in quite many DoCommands.
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13:08:23  <Zuu> The esiest solution would be to make 33% production the default value in the NewGRF also for new industries and make this the starting level for industries in the GS, so the first upgrade bring them to 66%.
13:26:50  <ade> ade-desktop / # nmlc --version
13:26:50  <ade> 0.3.1.r5242:f6a3ae1163ab from 2014-05-09 (Released as 0.3.1)
13:26:50  <ade> Library versions encountered:
13:26:50  <ade> PIL: 1.1.7
13:26:50  <ade> PLY: 3.4
13:34:17  <Alberth> ok, so that's not 0.4.1
13:34:53  <Alberth> oh, and don't run programs as root, it's dangerous
13:35:54  <Alberth> what are you trying to do?
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13:40:29  <ade> I'm making the 32bpp NEWGRF.Like zbase...
13:45:12  <Alberth> from source, I assume, ie you have a check-out
13:45:12  <Alberth> I'd suggest you also check-out the nml source, so you have a new enough version
13:45:31  <Alberth> it also avoids the setuptools crap
13:46:09  <ade> thanks to Alberth...
13:47:07  <Alberth> you're welcome :)
13:47:51  <Alberth> you're just building zbase, or do you also want to make changes?
13:58:25  <ade> Yes,I'm a MBA,want to add some new buildings, Such as Stock Market,Products,,,,,
13:59:58  <ade> Maybe I need to write the patch of openttd.
14:02:57  <Alberth> just new buildings would be a new objects  newgrf, I think
14:03:36  <Alberth> then you get eye-candy graphics
14:05:43  <ade> Bring "capitalism Lab" to openttd,that is my dream.
14:07:30  <Alberth> don't know that, but wouldn't that require a rewrite of the openttd economy?
14:08:50  <Alberth> doing that is fine, but why do you need new buildings for that, I am wondering?
14:11:07  <ade> Yes ,Just the Player control the Factory,and mft more products. Like FIRS industy.
14:12:48  <ade> Because I need stock exchange center(building),,,NYSE
14:13:09  <Alberth> ah, ok
14:13:37  <Sylf> that sounds like a completely new game
14:14:02  <Alberth> couldn't you just add a "stock market" button to the city windows?
14:14:10  <Alberth> Sylf: quite :)
14:14:40  <Sylf> reminds me of this dude on the forum a while back, trying to merge openttd with another game
14:16:25  <Alberth> might be easier to start designing the game from scratch, and then implement it by looking at existing code
14:17:09  <ade> And I want to add Army,Tank, planetmaker tell me to write the NEWGRF,so I study the nml. but is too hard for me.
14:17:36  <ade> sorry ,,,,my english is very poor.
14:17:42  <Alberth> that's also capitalism lab?
14:18:28  <Alberth> you tried the nml tutorial?  that's the easiest way in, I think
14:18:47  <ade> that is red alert 2,,,want to simulate the real-world.
14:18:51  <Sylf> what do army and tanks do in openttd?
14:18:55  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: Yo.]
14:19:07  <Sylf> there'll be a war in openttd?
14:19:37  <Sylf> Is this openttd or freeciv?
14:20:36  <Alberth> so how many years do you think you will need?
14:20:56  <ade> 100 years,,,,LOL
14:21:11  <Alberth> that sounds about right :)
14:24:06  <Alberth> why do you start with openttd?   wouldn't starting with openra or so be better?
14:24:31  <Alberth> ie what does openttd bring in?
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14:26:15  <ade> openttd is logistics,,,,,,is a part of economy.
14:26:30  <ade> the openra is too far for me.
14:28:10  <Alberth> openttd is train-network building
14:28:23  <ade> I have design a lot of prototype for the ecnomic system of openttd
14:28:25  <Alberth> it's not really centered around logistics
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14:29:39  <Alberth> indeed, you'd need to change the entire economy
14:30:47  <Alberth> and pretty much build up logistics from the ground
14:30:58  <Alberth> ie there are no ware houses or so in openttd currently
14:31:46  <Alberth> freeciv or widelands  are more resource oriented
14:31:47  <ade> ok,,,add the warehouse to zbase...
14:33:09  <Alberth> you are aware that changing the underlying code is a lot more difficult than adding a few graphics, right?
14:33:16  <ade> I have a qustion, why the IRC can't send the images.
14:34:01  <Alberth> use an image host site, like imgur, and paste the link in irc
14:34:10  <ade> thanks
14:36:32  <ade> I'm studying NML ,BYE,Albert ,,,,,thanks
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14:50:20  <Sylf> one person is speaking in earthling, the other in martian, and somehow the conversation makes half sense.  Amazing.
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14:50:56  <Wolf01> hi hi
14:54:31  <Alberth> Sylf: mind is set at one goal and one goal only :)
14:54:36  <Alberth> hi hi W
14:58:42  <Wolf01> I think in the next months I'll have a lot of time to think about doing nice stuff, maybe for openttd too
15:03:17  <Alberth> I do hope you'll reserve some time for doing too :)
15:04:25  <Wolf01> yes, I think I'll have a lot of spare time for doing stuff
15:05:29  <Alberth> great
15:12:34  <Zuu> Sounds like ade will have use of the gs->newgrf patch.
15:16:06  <Alberth> yeah, maybe you can write a new economy in GS
15:17:10  <Alberth> financial window won't change probably
15:17:55  <Sylf> wat.  I demand research & development category in finance window.  And have it done tomorrow.  For free.
15:20:16  <Alberth> I think that needs research and development, but you seem to have run out of money
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15:28:02  <Wolf01> o/
15:31:06  <andythenorth> also o/
15:31:44  <andythenorth> ah
15:31:52  <andythenorth> confirmation that OpenTTD is dead
15:32:02  <andythenorth> because NoMultiCore
15:33:15  <Sylf> haha
15:33:27  <Sylf> yup, he said so, so it must be true.
15:33:55  <andythenorth> has me convinced
15:37:58  <andythenorth> can we make OpenTTD eventually consistent? o_O
15:38:21  <andythenorth> your MP games might diverge, but eventually they’ll all be the same state - crashed
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15:39:14  <Alberth> maybe we should first remove all multi-core support :p
15:40:05  <andythenorth> is pathfinding really so slow?
15:40:20  <andythenorth> I thought $someone profiled and found that there is a huge graphics loop eating time?
15:40:30  <andythenorth> eh, that was years ago though
15:40:42  <Alberth> running anything newgrf is expensive
15:40:51  <Alberth> just the startup iirc
15:41:24  <Alberth> pathfinding is done a lot
15:41:45  <Alberth> that's why you can take out a track just before a train,and it will divert or stop
15:41:46  <andythenorth> and tbh, the game just isn’t fun if you don’t have a 4096x4096 map, with 10k vehicles
15:42:13  <Alberth> :o  only 4000x4000?   you need at least 8000x4000!
15:42:29  <andythenorth> 16536^2?
15:42:40  <andythenorth> not even playing serious with less than that
15:43:03  <andythenorth> performance boost: reduced map sizes
15:43:11  <andythenorth> performance boost: reduced vehicle limits
15:43:32  <Alberth> Hopefully 128 bit map-positions would be sufficient
15:44:06  <Alberth> but it would perhaps also need wrap-around?
15:44:17  <andythenorth> how about sharding the map and using one core per shard?
15:44:21  <Alberth> the world isn't flat, you know!
15:44:57  <andythenorth> “I’m using sharding AND multi-threading to solve performance problems”
15:45:04  <andythenorth> “now you have 3 problems"
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15:46:17  <Alberth> I pondered about optimistically doing path finding on the next two trains. The next will always be taken, the 2nd train only if there is no conflict
15:46:32  <Alberth> but likely, detecting conflict takes more time
15:52:00  <Zuu> Alberth: New economy can display some stats in a story book page. It doesn't support tabular data, but it would be possible to add a page element type for that.
15:52:38  <andythenorth> New economy? o_O
15:52:39  <Zuu> Oh, and its sunny here 2 hours today which is why I'm a bit afk :-)
15:52:50  * andythenorth is sunburnt
15:54:59  <Alberth> /me offers a very rainy day in exchange
16:10:04  <Taede> ello
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16:17:39  <ade>
16:17:49  <ade> Great....
16:18:07  <ade> gs->newgrf patch
16:19:38  <Zuu> Oh you found it :-)
16:19:56  <Zuu> <-- in action
16:21:52  <ade> WONDER,,,I LOVE ...............
16:21:54  <Zuu> <-- game script in use (in screenshot)
16:21:58  <Zuu> <-- newgrf
16:22:21  <Zuu> requires also the patch you find in the topic.
16:25:59  <Flygon> Hey, checking out the planned list of trains for 2CC Set...
16:26:06  <Flygon> Someone's listed down the X'trapolis 100 for Chile
16:26:07  <Flygon> But...
16:26:15  <Flygon> It's actually most widely used  in Melbourne
16:26:25  <Zuu> When a goal is completed, it will upgrade the target industry to higher prodiction/efficiency. If target is a town, only mail goal will be allowed to upgrade, and it will upgrade all primary industries nearby the town.
16:26:32  <Flygon> Who/where do I constant/consult about the possibility of it being enabled for both Oceania and South America?
16:27:29  <Alberth> in the 2cc topic?
16:27:54  *** ade is now known as Ade
16:28:13  <Flygon> Alright
16:28:27  <Flygon> Alberth: I'm just worried people will call me an asshole for saying it
16:28:36  <Flygon> Even tho it really is the X'trapolis's main claim to fame... x.x
16:28:53  <Alberth> provide proof?
16:28:57  <Flygon> And I know people are going to tear me a new one about things like "Well, what the crap DO you think it's main company is?"
16:29:09  <Flygon> Is Wikipedia proof? Or do I have to go through a million misc. web pages
16:29:16  <Flygon> Such as Railpage, that VR archive, ect
16:29:32  <Flygon> I'm sorry if I sound agressive... just...
16:29:36  <Flygon> It's a long evening
16:29:37  <Alberth> how would I know, I don't do real-life vehicle thingies :)
16:29:44  <Flygon> I'm really really sorry
16:29:48  <Alberth> :)
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16:31:00  <Alberth> it's interesting to see people discussing ball bearings of wagons as justification of wagon speed limits :)
16:32:52  <Alberth> but wiki-pedia sounds like more proof to me than just claiming without any reference
16:45:25  <Flygon> Did I make my point clear enough?
16:45:30  <__ln__> if i choose greek drachma as the currency, it'll automatically change to euro when year changes to 2002. at what year will it change back to drachma?
16:46:13  <Wolf01> and more important: can you have a double currency period?
16:47:24  *** Ade [~ade@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the game is not capable of doing that
16:49:04  <__ln__> also, why cannot i get an unlimited amount of loan?
16:49:26  <frosch123> just raise inflation
16:50:24  <__ln__> for that i'd need the drachma back
16:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't have inflation with the euro. germany won't allow it
16:52:19  <__ln__> exactly
16:53:04  <Flygon> I'd make a snarky remark as a casual observer
16:53:04  <Flygon> But
16:53:14  <Flygon> You'd point out Tony Abbott's a dick who's ruining Australia
16:53:31  <Flygon> I'd use rougher language, like saying "Tony Abbott is a cunt", but I don't want to get banned from #openttd
16:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody outside australia really cares :p
16:53:39  <Flygon> imgur cares
16:53:47  <Flygon> What with how often that "The Reject" photoshoot gets reposted
16:53:49  <Flygon> :B
16:53:51  <Flygon> GOOD NIGHT
16:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i do like clarke and dawe, though
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17:45:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27339 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2015-07-25 19:45:15 +0200 )
17:45:25  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:26  <DorpsGek> frisian - 42 changes by BAJansen
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18:09:19  * andythenorth ponders
18:09:33  <andythenorth> actually the type of bearings in a vehicle is a very big gameplay factor
18:09:59  <andythenorth> oops
18:11:29  <frosch> maybe try post-hog justifications :p
18:12:33  <andythenorth> ooh
18:12:39  <andythenorth> nice reply
18:12:56  <andythenorth> hog is heading into the happy world of post-hog justification
18:13:02  <andythenorth> it’s much the best way to make a set :P
18:13:11  <Alberth> :)
18:13:31  <andythenorth> first find the rough edges caused by current spec in current openttd
18:13:46  <andythenorth> then design a vehicle roster to make gameplay pleasing accepting the rough edges
18:14:02  <andythenorth> then google endlessly for odd prototypes and long-forgotten realisms :P
18:14:16  <Alberth> then ???
18:14:21  <Alberth> then PROFIT!!
18:14:30  <andythenorth> nah, declare it rubbish and start again
18:14:51  <andythenorth> Iron Horse is interesting
18:15:02  <andythenorth> it’s easily my favourite set of the ones I’ve made
18:15:08  <andythenorth> but relatively, players hate it
18:15:46  <Alberth> hmm, good sign clearly, as you and players seem a lot mutual exclusive :)
18:16:18  <Alberth> but what is supposed to be wrong about it?
18:16:30  <Alberth> I found it a nice set to play with
18:17:03  <Alberth> although it is some time ago since I tried it
18:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> while the design challenge may be interesting, the players might not have the same investment into the ideas and concepts
18:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i would never play 10CC, for example
18:20:16  <Alberth> are you talking about iron horse?
18:23:38  <andythenorth> I have probably undersold it in the release thread :P
18:23:45  <andythenorth>
18:26:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a common problem with you. you're trying to be overly witty, and you lose everybody who didn't take the mind-journey with you.
18:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> a release thread like this you should write for a person who has never read any post by you, ever.
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18:42:19  <andythenorth> or I don’t care any more, and I’m amusing myself :)
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18:53:19  <andythenorth> eh it’s also a field flooded with train sets
18:54:36  <andythenorth> which might explain why an unfinished Road Hog alpha has more downloads than a very polished stable release of Iron Horse
19:07:59  <Zuu> Don't take download counts to seriusly. People download libraries that have no script yet using it.
19:10:07  <Supercheese> I'm still partial to NARS and UKRS
19:10:59  <Supercheese> I've set myself a goal to use every engine in them in some niche, but I'll likely need several more games to achieve that goal
19:13:43  <Supercheese> although my current game keeps stalling as I think up more features to add to newgrfs :S
19:14:34  <Zuu> That is a common result of playing
19:15:13  <andythenorth> sometimes I don’t play because I feel I need to add a feature first :|
19:15:19  <andythenorth> that is boring and silly
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19:16:03  <Alberth> I do that with code features, sometimes I first need to refactor
19:16:11  <Alberth> also boring but less silly :)
19:17:10  <andythenorth> inertia :)
19:17:21  <andythenorth> it’s why inexperienced developers sometimes turn up and get a lot done
19:17:33  <andythenorth> they lack inhibitions :)
19:17:47  <Alberth> :)
19:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <Supercheese> although my current game keeps stalling as I think up more features to add to newgrfs :S <-- that is why most people in here never play the game anymore
19:20:47  * Supercheese is joining the dark side
19:21:00  * andythenorth did play the game, it was fun
19:21:08  <andythenorth> then I thought of a feature for Busy Bee
19:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> for example, i've not played a single game since i started CETS
19:21:18  <andythenorth> then I didn’t learn Squirrel :P
19:21:19  <Eddi|zuHause> except maybe testing for 10 minutes
19:24:54  * Supercheese will buck the trend and play a game right now
19:25:16  <Zuu> Develop a GS that needs play testing? ;-)
19:25:53  <Zuu> Busy Bee actually is quite good at getting you to play the game.
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19:26:51  <Supercheese> startup sure takes a while when you've hundreds of newgrfs to scan...
19:27:52  <Zuu> So then you bring up your text editor to code some stuff on your project and forget about playing the game? :-p
19:29:58  <Supercheese> thankfully not this time, I'm still stymied on trying to feed the relative tile information to the airport through the anim_control callback
19:30:11  <Supercheese> really not much of an idea how to work that out
19:30:32  <Alberth> scanning is done by now :p
19:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: that is usually stopped abruptly by the *dingdingding* sound in the background
19:33:44  <Supercheese> great now I cannot remember why I built a branch from this aluminum plant to the sugar refinery...
19:34:41  <Supercheese> ah, must be for the food produced
19:34:47  <Alberth> busy bee is great for that, it has a concrete list of goals :)
19:34:59  <Sylf> you produce canned sugar?
19:35:23  <Alberth> "food"  :)
19:35:39  <Zuu> And you can stil pick from them what makes most sense for your network. But not completing the goal means you have to wait 3 years before you get a new one. :-)
19:40:12  <Supercheese> CHIPS tiles are great for station walking
19:43:08  <Zuu> I wonder what to do next to the 'experimental newgrf-gs branch'
19:44:23  <Zuu> Make a forum post? Make binaries? Work on patch? etc. :-)
19:46:14  <Zuu> Or play on the Busy Bee server :-D
19:51:45  <Alberth> such hard decisions :)
19:52:07  <Zuu> Or actually, it is getting late so bed is also an option. :-)
19:53:25  <Supercheese> Beer is also always an option
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20:06:54  <andythenorth> CHIPS tiles are *made* for station walking
20:07:01  <andythenorth> building ‘pretty stations’ was never the goal :)
20:07:08  <andythenorth> also bedtime
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20:08:08  * Supercheese has too many station newgrfs
20:08:16  <Supercheese> but they're all so good
20:20:48  <Zuu> Station NewGRFs is what I miss out most when playing without any NewGRFs.
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20:24:52  <Supercheese> Man I dunno what I'd do without ctrl+drag for signals on the whole line
20:25:10  <Supercheese> well, guess I'd probably get carpal tunnel
20:26:11  <Zuu> Oh yes, good old TTD without ctrl+drag and no rail coversion tool. :-)
20:26:22  * Supercheese shudders at the thought
20:26:39  <Supercheese> thankfully when only TTD was around, I was but a wee lad and didn't even know how to use signals
20:27:00  <Supercheese> by the time I figured networking out OTTD was out
20:28:07  <Zuu> I made some networks in TTDP without ctrl+drag or rail conversion tool. But then at that time, even if OTTD was not out, I had plenty of time to play the game.
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20:44:27  <Quatroking> is it possible to change the max clients of a server while running?
20:45:00  <frosch> quite sure it is
20:45:08  <Quatroking> how?
20:45:17  <frosch> do you know the in-game console?
20:45:21  <Quatroking> Yep
20:45:35  <frosch> try listsettings maxclient
20:45:39  <frosch> or listsetting
20:45:55  <frosch> i never quite know the singular/plural :)
20:46:19  <Supercheese> it's plural
20:46:47  <Supercheese> setting max_clients X
20:46:53  <Supercheese> to modify
20:48:42  <Quatroking> thanks
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20:53:34  <Quatroking> also, any way to make trees transparant
20:53:42  <Zuu> X
20:53:48  <Quatroking> thanks again
20:53:55  <Zuu> Also try Ctrl+X
20:55:44  <Zuu> There is a whole wiki article on hidden features in OpenTTD:
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21:59:00  <Terkhen> good night
22:08:41  <Wolf01> 'night
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