Log for #openttd on 17th September 2015:
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05:48:42  <Flygon> Looking at it
05:48:49  <Flygon> Most of the OpenTTD Wiki junctions
05:48:55  <Flygon> Are in zero way built for realistic acceleration x.x
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08:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> most of the wiki junctions i would never ever build
08:14:11  <V453000> nobody with brain would
08:14:30  <V453000> regardless if realistic or efficient brain
08:15:29  <Flygon> Then WHY are they on the Wiki?
08:15:35  <Flygon> They're just so...
08:15:38  <Flygon> Why?
08:15:45  <Flygon> As in, that's the word, to describe them
08:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: it's a wiki, fix it?
08:15:54  <Flygon> Not me repeating "Why are they on the Wiki"
08:16:01  <Flygon> Mate, I'm... trust me
08:16:11  <Flygon> My junctions go for aesthetic over practicality
08:16:17  <Flygon> I aim to make them look like IRL ones
08:16:18  <Flygon> Usually.
08:16:25  <Flygon> The 'enhanced' cloverleaf is an exemptoon
08:17:16  <Flygon> There is, in theory, more efficient 'seamless' junctions for the same purpose
08:17:23  <Flygon> But they look far uglier
08:17:44  <Flygon> And would have one minor downside...
08:18:01  <Flygon> Less capacity, in edge circumstances
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09:17:50  <Wolf01> moin
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12:07:40  <andythenorth> o/
12:08:02  <Wolf01> \o
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12:38:04  <Pikka> o?
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12:39:40  <andythenorth> yes
12:39:45  <peter1138> ____oOOo__\\ O ^ O ///__oOOo____
12:40:01  <andythenorth> showing off
12:47:44  <V453000> .
12:52:59  <Pikka> ,
13:03:12  <Wolf01> ;
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13:12:28  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r27399 trunk/ (2015-09-17 15:12:21 +0200 )
13:12:29  <DorpsGek> -Fix: [Makefile] game script directory and compat*.nut were never installed on *nix
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13:23:39  <jefferyw> help I am crashing with sound issues
13:23:40  <jefferyw>
13:23:54  <jefferyw> gdb backtrace included
13:25:42  <jefferyw> oh openttd in the repos is still 1.3.3
13:30:58  <FLHerne> Aargh, that's impressively ancient
13:31:40  <jefferyw> is this problem also ancient?
13:36:35  <jefferyw>
13:36:54  <jefferyw> I spot in this repo 1.5.1
13:37:06  <jefferyw> why is it not included in 14.04
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13:37:43  <jefferyw> sorted it would be
13:37:44  <jefferyw>;O=D
13:53:17  <jefferyw> well when a dev gets this message please push openttd 1.5.1 into the ubuntu universe repo and allow install on 14.04 trusty
13:53:50  <jefferyw> and take a look at my backtrace from gdb
13:54:01  <jefferyw>
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13:56:17  <planetmaker> jefferyw ... hm... we can't do anything about that. Nor is the backtrace really that helpful...
13:56:26  <planetmaker> everything stripped
13:56:49  <planetmaker> and of course he left :S
13:57:15  <wito> Ugh.
13:57:37  <wito> I'm using FISH and ECS, and I cannot for the -life- of me stabilize the rating for an oilrig at above 72 %
13:58:32  <wito> And I cannot figure out what the problem is.
13:59:05  <wito> I have 6 ships, timetabled so they arrive 20 days apart, staying for 40 days to load.
13:59:11  <wito> They're slow, but still, come on!
13:59:14  <planetmaker> do the ECS docs say anything?
14:00:42  <wito> Does ECS affect rating?
14:04:00  <planetmaker> dunno. It can control it
14:04:30  <planetmaker> Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
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14:14:21  <wito> Well, I've managed to turn my transport network all higgledy-piggledy anyway, so will probably start anew.
14:14:33  <wito> Avoiding oil rigs in favor of oil fields
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16:42:01  <frosch123> sometimes i have no words for what is happening in the chat log
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16:48:30  <planetmaker> o/
16:48:36  <planetmaker> what leaves you so speechless, frosch123 ? :)
16:49:19  <frosch123> the guy running openttd in a debugger, then manually interrupting the process, getting the backtrace at whatever point ottd was running, and then reporting it as a crash backtrace
16:50:12  <planetmaker> ah :)
16:50:25  <frosch123> he probably heard that you need backtraces for crash reports, and googled how to create a backtrace, but not understanding that there is a relation between crash and backtrace :p
16:51:43  <planetmaker> there sure is :P
16:52:21  <frosch123> it's like replacing the fuse in your house, when the light of your car doesn't work
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16:53:00  <planetmaker> :)
16:53:17  <planetmaker> might work for a Tesla in need of a re-charge :P
16:53:47  <frosch123> i thought you can charge them for free when you do some extra detour, so it counts as long distance travel
16:57:08  <planetmaker> dunno.. I never drove one nor am I currently in the position to afford one :)
16:57:48  <frosch123> you cannot afford to buy one or you cannot afford to steal one? :p
17:03:45  <wito> "This timetable will take 1,408 days to complete"
17:04:19  <frosch123> does it include the construction of the engine?
17:05:18  <frosch123> or the schooling of the driver?
17:05:56  <wito> Nope. Just a 677 day leg.
17:06:17  <wito> But it's at 60 km/h, so a few years down the road it'll improve.
17:07:29  <frosch123> @calc 1408*24*60 / 1000
17:07:29  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2027.52
17:10:23  <wito> So, um...
17:10:31  <wito> One 20th of the way around the earth.
17:10:33  <wito> None too shabby.
17:10:36  <frosch123> well, it's about 7 times to the moon, not sure whether that is enough to reach mars
17:11:05  <frosch123> wito: did you miss the "/ 1000"
17:11:20  <wito> Oh, right.
17:11:36  <wito> God damned unit-less calculator!
17:11:43  * wito shakes his fist in the air.
17:12:51  <wito> 6.8 light seconds.
17:13:01  <wito> That's far.
17:14:58  <wito> But "only" about a hundreth of the mean distance between Earth and Mars.
17:26:13  <planetmaker> frosch123, either would be the best choice now :P
17:26:46  <Rubidium> wito: just imagine how big a 4096x4096 map would be with those calculations ;)
17:27:55  <wito> Well, my 677 day thing is about 1600 tiles.
17:28:16  <planetmaker> as to distances... 7 times the moon is tiny compared to earth-mars distance :)
17:28:22  <wito> So let's say 1000 days for 2048 tiles, 2000 for the full 4096
17:28:31  <planetmaker> 400.000 vs.
17:28:43  <planetmaker> well. add *7 on the left hand side
17:29:05  <frosch123> yeah, i stopped when i did not know how far it is to the mars, but i probably should have guessed that it is more than 7 times :p
17:29:23  <wito> o.O
17:29:25  <planetmaker> the distance varies. And... a straight line is not quickest anyway :)
17:29:34  <wito> According to these calculations.
17:29:47  <planetmaker> quickest possible way is around 4...5 months travel
17:29:49  <wito> The area of a 4096**2 map is...
17:29:49  <planetmaker> one-way
17:30:04  <wito> One and a half times the surface area of the sun.
17:30:07  <wito> o.O
17:30:14  <planetmaker> of the *sun*?
17:30:33  <wito> Of the **sun**.
17:31:02  <Rubidium> well, it's fairly simple... a tile is 668x668 km
17:31:09  <planetmaker> :)
17:31:41  <planetmaker> 1000 tiles thus are the radius of the sun :)
17:31:50  <wito> Oh, my math is off.
17:32:00  <wito> It's only 1.2 times the surface area of the sun.
17:32:30  <Rubidium>*+668km+*+4096*4096
17:33:14  <wito> I prefer (668 km * 4096) ** 2, but whatever floats your boat. :)
17:34:11  <Rubidium> likewise, a 4096 tile map is 7 times the distance to the moon ;)
17:34:18  <Rubidium> (yay wolframalpha)
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17:36:56  <Rubidium> but yes, the standard reply to people asking for 8192x8192 maps is asking whether they really need five times the surface area of the sun
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17:40:07  <wito> The scale is kind of messed up, tho'. :P
17:41:31  <wito> Because the roads are _clearly_ not 668 km wide. P:
17:42:01  <Taede> not to mention towns the size of countries
17:42:16  <wito> Towns the size of _Earth_
17:42:21  <wito> city blocks the size of countries.
17:43:04  <frosch123> how much does it slow the rotation of the earth, if you cover the surface with buildings that tall? :p
17:43:49  <Taede> on earth, it would be problematic
17:43:53  <Taede> dyson sphere would cope
17:44:27  <wito> Well, at a rough estimate the taller end of buildings in OpenTTD is what, 4 or 5 tiles wide?
17:44:45  <wito> So, 3 to 4 Mm.
17:46:01  <frosch123> sounds like you need to dig up a lot of lava to build them :p
17:46:46  <wito> Yeah.
17:47:08  <wito> I'm guessing that the effect would be roughly similar in magnitude to the slowing effect of the moon.
17:51:53  <frosch123> really? i would guess it halfes the speed
17:52:20  <frosch123> i think we are talking about moving half the mass of the earth to twice the distance from center
17:53:36  <wito> What kind of density are you working with?
17:54:40  <frosch123> maybe 1?
17:54:56  <frosch123> i am not sure how much a m³ of house weights :p
17:55:20  <wito> I think 1 is a reasonable estimate.
17:55:25  <wito> Somewhere between 1 and maybe 3?
17:55:39  <frosch123> there is a lot of air in a house :)
17:55:51  <frosch123> though maybe not in the upper levels :p
17:55:52  <wito> Although if it's built like some kind of as ship, it'd have to be less than 1.
17:56:17  <wito> But let's say 1 exactly.
17:56:41  <frosch123> also assuming the houses touches on the ground, there will be some distance between houses at the top :p
17:57:00  <wito> That would make it a lot like freezing the Earth's oceans and building a skyscraper from teh ice.
17:57:24  <wito> In terms of how much it is.
17:58:49  <frosch123> well, but 3000 km thick
17:59:06  <frosch123> the ocean is like 20 km in the deepest spot :p
17:59:08  <wito> 3000 km tall, 668 * 668 km at the base.
17:59:30  <wito> It's one 4000th of the mass of the earth.
18:03:37  <wito> But a whole town would -seriously- slow down the earth.
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18:10:18  <wito> Or, well, not really.
18:10:35  <wito> It'd pretty rapidly collapse in on itself.
18:11:28  <frosch123> well, you also reduce gravity, don't you?
18:13:53  <wito> Not enough.
18:14:40  <wito> And it's all the same mass, so the total gravitational attraction stays the same.
18:14:56  <wito> The Earth -really- wants to be round.
18:16:50  <planetmaker> you need 70.000 km high skyscraper with sufficient (inner) strength ;)
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18:17:08  <andythenorth> o/
18:17:20  <planetmaker> geo-stationary orbit is at 35.000km. Then it carries its own weight. But the tension...
18:17:26  <planetmaker> \o
18:18:24  <planetmaker> though... that only works with a mostly mass-less 'rope' instead of a thing with signifiant fraction of the Earth's mass
18:18:32  <planetmaker> *significant
18:20:01  <andythenorth> ah fuck it, FIRS is borked anyway for stable players
18:20:08  <andythenorth> I might as well merge the v2 branch to default
18:20:13  <andythenorth> then at least I can get translations
18:22:29  <andythenorth> are branch merges scary on hg
18:22:32  <andythenorth> let’s find out :P
18:22:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: repo has backups, right? :P
18:23:58  <planetmaker> we do have some backups, yes... What you want to do?
18:24:11  <andythenorth> I am going to merge the ‘snakebite’ branch of FIRS into ‘default'
18:24:14  <andythenorth> should be clean, but eh
18:24:26  <andythenorth> I tend to break hg because I use it as though it’s git
18:24:36  <andythenorth> I used to break it because I used it like svn :P
18:24:42  <andythenorth> potato / potato
18:24:50  <planetmaker> well. you do it locally first anyway. So if it breaks, it breaks on your machine. Then simply clone anew
18:25:34  <andythenorth> seems to have worked
18:25:39  <planetmaker> though I don't see what can break in a merge except you getting results you don't want due to making the merge the wrong way or so :)
18:25:46  <andythenorth> now eints will pick it up
18:25:49  <planetmaker> or using the wrong merge algo :)
18:25:54  <andythenorth> fat fingers
18:26:02  <andythenorth> or error between keyboard and chair :P
18:26:07  <andythenorth> it’s ok it went fine
18:26:16  <andythenorth> I have been merging default into snakebite regularly
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18:26:48  <peter1138> i figured it would be useful to have a changelog in my repo
18:26:49  <andythenorth> I am sad that FIRS is currently non-available on bananas for most players, but eh
18:26:56  <andythenorth> you have a repo? :o
18:27:17  <peter1138> except it turns out it's a major pain, because you end up with conflicts on any merge purely because of the changelog entries...
18:28:01  <andythenorth> try having language files around
18:28:08  <andythenorth> with an extraction date baked into the file :(
18:28:16  <andythenorth> meh to that
18:28:39  <peter1138> mmm baked
18:28:51  <peter1138> yeah, similar pointless thing :)
18:29:00  <andythenorth> changelog goes in the milestone branch, not the feature branch :P
18:29:03  <andythenorth> problem solved
18:29:12  <andythenorth> or go big, put it straight into master
18:30:20  <wito> Or build a changelog from commit messages at some time down the road.
18:31:32  <peter1138> wito, yeah basically that
18:32:34  <andythenorth> who made eints UI :P
18:32:40  <andythenorth> it’s confusing
18:32:52  <andythenorth> and also, non-retina icons :(
18:32:55  <andythenorth> ugh
18:33:00  <peter1138> heh
18:33:04  <peter1138> font-awesome!
18:33:16  <peter1138> someone get me a roland juno-ds
18:40:13  <andythenorth> the problem with eints
18:40:18  <andythenorth> is that the developers got bored
18:40:22  <andythenorth> and moved on to other things
18:40:29  <andythenorth> standard :P
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18:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> yeah, i stopped when i did not know how far it is to the mars, but i probably should have guessed that it is more than 7 times :p <-- i'd estimate something in the order of 0,5 to 1,5 AU, depending on positions
18:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> or the other estimate is, assuming the distribution of the inner planets is fairly even, the radius of the orbits are 0,3; 0,6; 1; 1,3
18:46:22  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, 0.5 and 2.5 ;)
18:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause> err, of course
18:46:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i do think i meant to write that
18:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but something interfered inbetween my thought and my writing
18:49:09  <NGC3982> I'm so tired.
18:50:14  <andythenorth> I find it’s my thoughts that interfere with my writing :(
18:52:44  <wito> Interplanetary distance is unimaginably large.
18:53:20  <andythenorth> it is? o_O
18:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there are still different levels of unimaginable :p
18:53:35  <wito> True.
18:53:53  <wito> It's nowhere near as unimaginable as -interstellar- distance.
18:54:00  <andythenorth> I think it’s similar unimaginable to having your first child, newborn, and imagining them being 3 years old
18:54:06  <andythenorth> is my guess
18:54:33  <andythenorth> to travel that journey just takes time,

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