Log for #openttd on 19th October 2015:
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00:02:01  <tipsyTentacle> Hm... okay! Thanks.
00:03:43  <greeter> i find the two way triple track layout for handling main lines the most useful. with path based signaling and switches in the right places, you can have an awful lot of trains on the tracks before you run into deadlocks
00:06:18  <tipsyTentacle> Ohhh interesting. This will be useful. (:
00:07:27  <greeter> some of those are more advanced than others. there's some i'm too afraid to try lol
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00:08:38  <greeter> but i'm not the best person to dispense this kind of advice. i see screen shots on the wiki and main site of really nice, slick, clean looking networks. then i look at mine and it looks like someone on crack built them
00:09:56  <tipsyTentacle> LOL I am sure you're just not giving yourself enough credit. :P
00:10:37  <greeter> oh the networks i build get the job done, they just look ugly lol
00:11:26  <greeter> and i don't plan them out well enough since i'm constantly making changes... making one way tracks two way tracks or vice versa, or making one way tracks one way in the opposite direction
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00:13:31  <tipsyTentacle> Oh. I see. Well, it's hard to plan for the future sometimes ];
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00:13:41  <greeter> lol true
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00:20:13  <greeter> and i just did one of those things lol
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00:26:03  <drac_boy> anyone here interested in Sentinel locomotives?
00:26:31  <greeter> what are those?
00:31:23  <drac_boy> greeter well to sum it up...
00:32:30  <drac_boy> uk designed (there were a few noteable examples sold oversea) locomotive that was basically an advanced single-man vertical&horizontal boiler steam locomotive .. most of them were for shunting purposes but you had a few steam-powered railcars too nevertheless
00:33:29  <drac_boy> some of them almost look just like a diesel shunter locomotive except for lot of white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe (instead of diesel-burning smoke)
00:33:39  <drac_boy> one sec..
00:34:20  <greeter> ok. hmm
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00:35:52  <drac_boy> this was one of the earlier diesel-lookish model greeter
00:36:27  <drac_boy> the water tank is near nose (re weight balance) .. pistons are under the additional access covers near middle .. and the vertical boiler is within view of the cab
00:36:59  <drac_boy> the one giveaway (other than the odd hood) could be the lack of siderods which were typical on just about any gas/diesel shunter locomotives around that time
00:37:22  <drac_boy> these sentinel locomotive had the piston driving a chain/shaft drive to both axles internally
00:38:20  <greeter> interesting looking vehicle for sure
00:38:30  <tipsyTentacle> Interesting
00:39:06  <drac_boy> greeter heres a WWII-dated "mass production" design (but only LNER amassed a large grouping of them) to give you an idea of how the interior layout functioned
00:39:49  <drac_boy> that particular boxy-looking one was designed for like 10-20kph operation which suited its purpose for any kind of shuntings or light works with only one single man needed (no fireman etc)
00:40:21  <greeter> well i don't know much about trains, but it sure looks interesting
00:40:25  <drac_boy> oh yeah and that one is a shaft driven one if that wasn't already obvious :)
00:40:45  <drac_boy> greeter well sentinel was a bit unique .. btw it was not only one-man locomotives they's a little surprise...
00:41:42  <drac_boy>
00:41:52  <drac_boy> hows that for a vertical boiler (you can see the bottom of it in fact) ... bus :P
00:42:26  <drac_boy> the lower weight and higher power of diesel tractors/buses killed off most of sentinel's steam market eventually tho as you can already imagine
00:43:38  <tipsyTentacle> :O
00:43:43  <greeter> looks rustic :-)
00:43:58  <tipsyTentacle> Cool.
00:45:01  <drac_boy> greeter heh :)
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00:47:47  <drac_boy> greeter if you want something a little strange try this
00:47:59  <drac_boy> that was the only one garratt design that doesn't exactly look like a garratt!
00:48:57  <greeter> that certainly looks different lol
00:49:15  <drac_boy> inside pistons (the only lone garratt example of that afaik) ... and the small coal+water supply was carried on the boiler chassis instead of either power chassis's (their idea was that there wouldn't be any front-vs-rear weight imbalances due to fuel useage differences)
00:49:36  <drac_boy> it nevertheless did work well (even if it was only an one-off example) tho
00:49:47  <greeter> nice
00:50:01  <greeter> hmm, cargo ship is a really slow way to move coal around :-S
00:50:46  <drac_boy> greeter btw the africa garratts actually eventually often carried a water tender with them as to more or less keep some additional weight down on the drivers under the locomotive's water tank
00:50:58  <greeter> hmm
00:51:07  <drac_boy> (yep the tender water was pumped over into the locomotive water as wanted)
00:52:10  <greeter> i see
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00:55:09  <Gantradies> testing
00:55:49  <greeter> ok
00:56:19  <Gantradies>  hey guys.  erm.. im running a server in a VM on a friends rack, know enough abotu the command promnpt and teh server commands to do not break anything, is there a simple way to set a dedicated server to automatically load the last autosave without anything external, liek a command line option/switch or something?
00:57:43  <tipsyTentacle> make a shell script and put it into the startup dir?
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01:03:34  <greeter> why do i always laugh at this game whenever bad things happen to me?
01:03:55  <tipsyTentacle> Tell us what happened! :D
01:04:38  <greeter> half my ships are lost, because the first order in the queue was about a thousand tiles away from the depot
01:05:39  <drac_boy> greeter btw there is a different kind of articulated locomotives that for some reason seem to have only lasted in the very early years then wasn't heard of so much afterward..let me try find that name for you...
01:06:08  <greeter> alright then
01:07:56  <drac_boy> that look like a 0-4-6 to someone who just knows that a steam locomotive is a steam locomotive right? :)
01:07:58  <greeter> bought the ships in january, it's april and they're still nowhere near the first stop
01:08:27  <greeter> now when i think of older trains, that's the style of design i picture
01:09:02  <drac_boy> greeter well what if I told you its really made up of two separate chassis sections? :)
01:10:16  <greeter> it looks like one solid piece there. how did they do that?
01:11:15  <drac_boy> its really one chassis carrying the usual cab/boiler with drive axles .. then a separate chassis carrying the rear tender section .. and what becomes strange here is that the tender is anchored into the locomotive chassis in a way that part of its weight transfers onto the drive axles (think alike to a car trailer that has its axle set all the way back so some of the cargo weight ends up onto the car's rear axle, not best ana
01:11:43  <drac_boy> so basically its a longer locomotive with the curvation flexibility of a shorter locomotive
01:12:12  <drac_boy> I imagine in that photo the break happens just between the cabfloor and the fuel box
01:12:26  <drac_boy> not sure tho
01:12:44  <drac_boy> its an odd idea tho.. a 0-4-6 not exactly being a 0-4-6 :)
01:14:37  <greeter> hmm
01:16:15  <drac_boy> greeter oh and you know how the whyte system works for steam locomotives? (re 0-6-0, 0-4-4-0, etc)
01:16:46  <greeter> well i've never heard of the whyte system actually :-S trains are far from being my specialty
01:17:40  <drac_boy> greeter well there were a few odd locomotives that made mock of the system .. like eg this it would had been called a 4-2-2 but that implies one driver axle ... can you can ops :)
01:18:02  <greeter> hmm?
01:18:08  <drac_boy> no wonder that many countries used the UIC (originally based from germany, no surprise) system which could better count powered vs unpowered axles
01:18:27  <drac_boy> even electric/diesel used the UIC system more or less (like eg B-B or Bo'Bo')
01:20:16  <drac_boy> greeter either way that aside, just asking if you recognize this? :)
01:21:09  <greeter> can't say that i do, but then again trains are not a popular mode of transport where i live
01:22:07  <drac_boy> greeter well thats the tgv (aka france's original high speed train) but its not the one everyone would think of tho... this is a gas turbine example
01:22:27  <greeter> interesting, not diesel?
01:22:36  <drac_boy> funny timing tho..they built it then the 1974 oil crisis happened and the politic was to go for full electrification instead
01:22:51  <drac_boy> greeter..diesel would be heavier and with less power .. not something you want in a light fast trainset
01:23:26  <drac_boy> the one drawback to any kind of turbine designs tho is the high fuel useage even at idle (so they were best for limited/non-stop trains of any sort but even then)
01:24:07  <greeter> ah, true. was just thinking that diesel might be preferred because it's more efficient
01:24:10  <drac_boy> even one usa railroad tried a few different coal/gas turbine locomotives in different duties but eventually all the good ones still left got reassigned to flatland country running which best matched their turbine units
01:24:22  <greeter> hmm
01:25:57  <drac_boy>" target="_blank"> heres one of the 'smaller' gas-turbine unit at home on a long nonstop freight run" target="_blank">
01:26:04  <drac_boy> err..sorry about the double links :|
01:26:35  <drac_boy> and coal-turbine version (with high power output from the look of the additional body)
01:26:46  <greeter> just a small engine lol
01:27:32  <greeter> would love to work for an outfit like that. unfortunately they don't hire a huge number of people like me
01:27:39  <drac_boy> greeter well the 'small' one was a single body unit with fuel contained ... the 'big' one were multi-unit (and some of them even reused old steam locomotive tender with the water baffle torched out to extend the coal capacity
01:27:52  <greeter> i see
01:27:57  <drac_boy> the second link is a good example of the latter type
01:28:30  <greeter> hmm
01:29:23  <drac_boy> greeter mind you it was not only turbine locomotives that were "supersized" on the UP rails..let me show you a diesel-electric thats really big...
01:29:46  <greeter> ok
01:31:10  <drac_boy> look at that BIG 8-axle unit compared to the very common 4-axle unit behind it :p
01:31:23  <drac_boy> that thing was actually a twin-engine unit
01:31:42  <drac_boy> (two 645 blocks for anyone else here who may want to know)
01:32:17  <drac_boy> come to think about it *that* is the only 8-axle diesel locomotive I know of, everyone else even oversea only had 4 or 6 axles
01:32:20  <drac_boy> heh
01:33:21  <greeter> that could move a lot of cargo. in fact i suspect it's doing just that
01:34:22  <drac_boy> greeter you want call this a "butt-nose"? it seem to be like someone took a big sledgehammer and smashed the nose inward :p
01:34:47  <drac_boy> note how its much bigger looking than that one little standard 4-axle diesel locomotive just behind it once again
01:34:55  <greeter> indeed
01:35:04  <greeter> i'd say at least twice the length
01:35:43  <drac_boy> greeter but anyhow to cut the story short .. there is an earlier example of high-hp locomotive that was built oversea for obvious sec to get photo before I continue this..
01:35:58  <greeter> alright
01:36:11  <greeter> no rush, i'm still cruising news headlines. history is about to be made here lol
01:43:50  <drac_boy> short story is a few of these were built in germany then shipped oversea to work for Southern Pacific which had kept trying to ask emd/alco/etc for more than 1200-2000hp output and getting nowwhere with them
01:44:24  <drac_boy> these thing were a bit massive (even the thick chassis depth gives that away too) and had like 3500hp per unit on hand
01:45:18  <drac_boy> and as expected...running these units in heavy trains through the mountain for a long time finally forced the american builders to upper the hp race :)
01:47:12  <drac_boy> (and yep as expected when these units came out SP did buy up a few groups of them)
01:48:01  <greeter> hmm
01:48:23  <greeter> long straight track, i bet the engineers don't care for that so much lol
01:48:39  <drac_boy> greeter its a funny story when you think about it..ask the local builder, get rebuffed, buy something foreign instead, local builder get all worked up trying to match it :)
01:48:52  <greeter> hmm
01:51:02  <drac_boy> greeter about pressing the hand of the local builder...when emd finally built some 3000hp units five years later .. guess who bought a modest number of them? SP of course
01:51:20  <greeter> nice
01:51:54  <drac_boy> hard to say but I think that the german 3500hp units made emd build that 3000hp unit of their own :)
01:52:55  <greeter> hmm
01:52:57  <drac_boy> greeter as for long straight tracks..that was typical of many lines between middle and west usa where theres lot of empty land and not as many urban sprawls (other than for some of calfornia)
01:53:18  <greeter> exactly. no obstacles to building long straight tracks. highways are the same way
01:53:41  <greeter> i once drove for four hours going due west from cancun. not one turn or hill. most boring trip ever
01:53:46  <drac_boy> these yellow turbine locomotives I mentioned earlier on? they could be expected to run for several long hours nonstop just to get from one yard to another yard at all :)
01:54:17  <drac_boy> oh that reminds me greeter...a funny photo..I don't think its online but I'll describe it...
01:54:34  <greeter> alright
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01:55:42  <drac_boy> it was of a streamlined diesel locomotive somewhere in calfornia .. running at high speed "with its air conditioning in effect" .. you want guess what that really meant? :)
01:56:38  <greeter> hmm
01:57:20  <drac_boy> the nose door was opened letting big gust of cooler wind into the cab nonstop ... this somewhat preceded mechanical a/c units on locomotives hehe :)
01:57:38  <drac_boy> and just to give you an idea you can see the outline of the door on front
01:57:44  <greeter> ah i see. well air cooling is one way to get the job done lol
01:57:57  <greeter> ah i see
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01:58:14  <drac_boy> greeter .. yeah .. funny way to cool off the hot cab on a long ride tho :)
01:58:52  <drac_boy> later units had optional (then standard) a/c units ... the retrofit ones could be obvious from the large white pod on top of cab roof (its almost the same thing you find on top of certain rv vans too mind you)
01:59:11  <greeter> hmm
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02:02:46  <drac_boy> greeter you want know of a slight odd usa-only railroad nickname? :)
02:03:14  <greeter> what's that?
02:04:05  <drac_boy> that was called a cow-calf because the calf always follows its mother or in this case its two identical locomotives but one doesn't have a normal cab per se so its always running in MU with a cab-equipped unit
02:04:28  <drac_boy> at least the cabless unit did have some basic controls under an access panel in case one had to be moved around on its own
02:04:50  <drac_boy> still.. "cow-calf" .. i always wondered who first made up that term :)
02:07:03  <greeter> hmm, a farmer who become an engineer maybe?
02:08:06  <drac_boy> greeter well theres a lot of interesting railroad slangs from the old days in usa too tho...let me show you some examples...
02:08:30  <greeter> ok
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02:13:06  <drac_boy> soak her = dump fire and put all sander/brakes on NOW damn it ... hand bomber = later steam locomotives with no strokers so umm you get the idea there .. highball = lets go .. deadhead = ride unpaid to alternative barrack/job elsewhere ..  hotshot = priority train (certain freights too)
02:13:40  <drac_boy> oh and 'shin peeler' for when a mail worker has to drag a heavy mail bag on or off the train .. weird one heh
02:14:26  <drac_boy> and I've never heard of it being used outside north america but if you hear "juice jack" it actually means an electric train because .. the juice is that thing from the overhead wires :P
02:14:36  <greeter> lol sounds a lot like the electrical trade, there's some pretty odd slang in it too
02:18:27  <drac_boy> :)
02:18:32  <drac_boy> anyway going sleep now so bye ok?
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02:59:39  <tipsyTentacle> Mew~
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03:50:29  <sim-al2> tispy, are you planning to fill the whole map up?
03:51:12  <tipsyTentacle> Yes.
03:51:17  <tipsyTentacle> I am planning to.
03:52:05  <sim-al2> Cool. Any freight so far, or is it all pax?
03:53:08  <tipsyTentacle> All PAX. Bullet trains don't have cars for frieght and I don't want to build a second line on normal rails just for frieght.
03:53:43  <tipsyTentacle> I certainly want to try doing both in my next game though.
03:54:10  <sim-al2> Yeah, I like the Japan Set but the regular MUs are not set up right, and they get worse the longer you build them.
03:55:08  <sim-al2> They add horsepower but no TE, so only the front end has it, thus acceleration gets worse with length
03:56:14  <sim-al2> Freight cars are good though, I tried out a freight game with the Japan Set and the cars work well
03:56:25  <tipsyTentacle> Yeah, I've noticed that most of my bullet trains have troubles climbing hills. :|
03:56:32  <tipsyTentacle> Also, excuse me, but what does MU and TE mean?
03:57:21  <sim-al2> MU=multiple unit, ie a train that has the power source (electric motors or diesel engines) distributed throughout the train, instead of in dedicated locmotives
03:57:39  <sim-al2> TE=tractive effort, basically pulling power
03:57:58  <tipsyTentacle> Oh okay, thanks~! (:
03:58:14  <sim-al2> so for example, the 0 series Shinkansen had motors on ALL cars orginally
03:58:52  <sim-al2> Most newer Shinkansen trains have the end cars unpowered though, but nearly all intermediate cars have motors
04:00:30  <sim-al2> Some newer Tokyo area trains have combinations like 6 motors cars and 9 trailers though, mainly because newer technology allowed similar acceleration with less equipment, and thus cheaper building/maintenance
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04:05:15  <tipsyTentacle> Oh, intresting.
04:05:53  <tipsyTentacle> So, just to be sure, this means I should try to keep my trains short?
04:06:33  <sim-al2> I think the problem is that the Japan Set was orginally made before "realistic acceleration" was added, so they only needed to add power to make the trains work correctly
04:06:58  <sim-al2> Probably would help a lot with acceleration
04:07:42  <sim-al2> As you've noticed, the longer trains will have more trouble with hills because of that problem
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04:12:52  <tipsyTentacle> hm, is it possible to modify newgrf's?
04:14:22  <sim-al2> Maybe, I don't know if the set has it;s source avaliable
04:15:08  <tipsyTentacle> Oh. So they are not modifiable without the source, got it.
04:15:37  <sim-al2> Yeah, it might be possible to decompile, but that's far beyond what I know about
04:16:00  <tipsyTentacle> hm...
04:16:04  <sim-al2> They have a site but it seems to have been made long before OpenTTD was avaliable
04:17:52  <tipsyTentacle> Oh well.
04:23:26  <sim-al2>
04:27:09  <sim-al2> If you try an industry set like FIRS, the freight trains get really interesting
04:29:36  <tipsyTentacle> FIRS looks like it would make the game a lot more complex than i need at the moment ];
04:29:49  <tipsyTentacle> that is one cool looking train though. (:
04:36:08  <sim-al2> Thanks, the container train takes fruit to the brewery, where along with a bunch of grain, alcohol gets made and taken to another city by a particuarly long set of trains
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04:37:02  <sim-al2> I noticed you have local stations being served by your trains, do you have a hub and spoke kind of network, or do they work their way around the system?
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04:40:06  <tipsyTentacle> Um, I don't really have a hub, I suppose. I didn't learn about hubs and mainlines and sidelines until I made most of the connections
04:40:49  <tipsyTentacle> Typically though, there is a long line down the coast connecting all the cities, and then just a random city (near the middle) where it splits off to another region of cities
04:43:24  <sim-al2> I see, for this system ( will trains travel from Outsu all the way to Saga?
04:44:32  <tipsyTentacle> Oh no! That might be troublesome. I haven't triedd it though.
04:44:49  <tipsyTentacle> Um, each coloured line has it own set of trains to service it.
04:45:28  <tipsyTentacle> So... there would be 5 sets of trains (that only overlap at one station per pair of set) from Outsu to Saga
04:45:41  <sim-al2> Heh, do you use cargo dist?
04:45:46  <tipsyTentacle> Yes. (:
04:46:49  <sim-al2> Lots of fun, if you have the demand it might be worth trying express trains serving the major cities end to end, that seems to help when a city gets congested
04:47:32  <sim-al2> At least when I use cargo-dist, the transfer stations get crazy busy
04:48:42  <tipsyTentacle> I had a problem with tons of people queueing up at Machida to get to Kasaoka. :|
04:48:51  <tipsyTentacle> I "fixed" it by adding more trains to the blue line.
04:50:01  <sim-al2> Heh, I love it when the passengers go to somewhat random destinations, but since this is virtual Japan you could say it's a popular shrine town
04:51:08  <tipsyTentacle> Hehe I should make a newgrf with just religious buildings to prop down in towns
04:51:52  <sim-al2> I think there's a newGRF with landmark buildings, I don't know how many of them are religious though
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04:53:55  <tipsyTentacle> hm, the newGRF i found seems to be mostly German landmarks?
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04:58:02  <sim-al2> There is a World Landmarks set, but it doesn't seem to have been developed recently
04:58:03  <sim-al2>
04:59:08  <sim-al2> THe ones drawn seem to be German though :D
05:00:00  <tipsyTentacle> hehe this is the one i found. :P
05:00:08  <sim-al2> Woops lol
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10:36:48  <Wolf01> hi o/
10:37:09  <__ln__> how do you do
10:37:26  <Wolf01> sleepy
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11:45:41  <planetmaker> g'day
11:49:57  <V453000> how can monday be
11:50:01  <V453000> "g" day :P
11:50:04  <V453000> hi.
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12:04:29  <planetmaker> hi :) By still being a holiday. Albeit my last :(
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13:32:03  <Eddi|zuHause> m'day?
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15:13:08  <planetmaker> o/
15:13:13  <Alberth> hi hi
15:14:33  <Alberth> did I understand your question to GarryG correctly as in NML accepts use of switch names declared later, but it doesn't work?
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15:31:20  <planetmaker> Alberth, yes, I ask whether he declares items in the correct order, thus first the item or switch definition. And only later referencing it.
15:31:35  <planetmaker> Actually I'm not sure whether that's (still) required
15:31:57  <planetmaker> But I think it is. It sounds like a grfspec limitation (not an NML one)
15:32:23  <Alberth> well, the order isn't that important to me, but I'd really like that NML gives an error instead of not working
15:32:53  <Alberth> nml can reshuffle order, at least theoretically
15:32:59  <planetmaker> well, it gives 'undefined identifier', if I understood correctly. Unfortunately I don't know what modifications were necessary to make it work
15:33:12  <planetmaker> yes, it can. And in some cases even does
15:33:23  <planetmaker> But it can't necessarily break loops :)
15:34:13  <Alberth> likely you cannot even specify that in newgrf, so it's an error already
15:34:38  <planetmaker> yup :)
15:36:14  <Wolf01> well, isn't time to change the official channel language?
15:36:55  <Wolf01> (i think i forgot an "it" somewhere)
15:37:55  <Alberth> hmm, no good substitute comes to mind
15:38:41  <Wolf01> i can count to 2 in german
15:40:00  <Alberth> ah gut, so wir konnen denn Deutsch sprechen, ja
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15:40:35  <Alberth> guten abend Wormnest
15:41:06  <Wormnest> hi
15:41:46  <Alberth> :)
15:42:09  <planetmaker> :D
15:42:52  <Alberth> in case you didn't read the logs Wormnest, speaking English appears to be dangerous: (17:36:14) Wolf01: well, isn't time to change the official channel language?
15:43:04  <Alberth> so we're considering switching language
15:43:58  <planetmaker> luckily it might be as valid to draw the conclusion that English as your mother tongue is dangerous only ;)
15:44:33  <planetmaker> so both of you are pretty safe, I guess :)
15:44:38  <Wormnest> Well donÂŽt we all die sooner or later, so weÂŽre just postponing our own execution anyway :)
15:45:40  <Wormnest> In any case off to diner now probably with some fat makers ;)
15:45:58  <planetmaker> :) enjoy
15:47:42  <Wolf01> :)
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16:27:28  <_dp_> planetmaker, how exactly GS can act in a god mode? Only few things are allowed with OWNER_DEITY.
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16:29:18  <Alberth> wouldn't it be logical to do those things then?
16:29:27  <Alberth> but it can also act as a company
16:29:35  <planetmaker> _dp_, sure, not everything. But those complement the stuff done as company
16:30:43  <_dp_> actually, only construction it can do with it is building bridges, tunnels and industries
16:31:06  <_dp_> and acting as company implies dealing with stupid stuff like running out of money, authorities, etc
16:31:43  <Alberth> it can also give money, or take it
16:32:02  <planetmaker> ^ exactly. Authorities might be an issue
16:32:58  <_dp_> not just may, it _is_ an isuue, I can't limit town growth in cb because of it
16:34:24  <_dp_> as company that destroys houses gets banned :(
16:36:09  <planetmaker> town growth can be directly controlled by GS, though
16:36:23  <planetmaker> so limiting that via company action is rather stupid thing to do
16:37:09  <_dp_> I'm trying to limit space for houses to prevent growing from outside in
16:37:26  <_dp_> not growth speed
16:38:45  <_dp_> without limit it's just generally better strategy to reserve center for later
16:45:37  <_dp_> and not only it's ugly but also stupidly op for small goals, as you can do it without delivering nearly as much as supposed
16:49:53  <planetmaker> I think I lost you somewhere. If you limit the space for a town to grow you inevitably limit its growth speed
16:54:42  <_dp_> mb, but it's not related to town growth rate, as I want to prevent town from building houses too far from center
16:55:13  <_dp_> so it won't be slowing town growth unless player tries to bring houses somewhere far with bridges or similar stuff
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16:58:52  <_dp_> btw, gs has also no way to deal with industries, can only build them but not remove or anything
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17:03:06  <planetmaker> indeed, it seems
17:03:16  <planetmaker> _dp_, I think that's an area where we gladly accept patches
17:03:53  <planetmaker> especially when you write a GS, writing a short API extension might come in handy and help and have good chances :)
17:04:16  <planetmaker> with industries... there should be two ways probably: back-talk to the NewGRF so that it closes it and a hard removal
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17:06:08  <_dp_> cool, then I'll do some :)
17:07:34  <_dp_> not rly using GS usually since I prefer to do everything directly with DoCommand but can do some simple just to showcase it
17:08:28  <_dp_> back-talking to newgrf is some other patch iirc (json-smth)?
17:09:06  <_dp_> actually, don't think it's a good idea to involve newgrfs in controlling the game
17:10:14  <planetmaker> something along json was suggested / discussed somewhen, iirc. But I don't know the discussion's result anymore
17:10:30  <planetmaker> _dp_, industries *are* controlled via NewGRF though. So there's no way around that
17:10:42  <planetmaker> if you want to meddle with those
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17:15:02  <_dp_> damn those newgrfs :(
17:16:35  <_dp_> so. bos
17:16:52  <_dp_> outh, hit enter accidentaly)
17:18:27  <_dp_> so, basically there is no way to, for example, allow changing industry production without newgrfs because, theoretically, there could be newgrf that controls it?
17:19:10  <planetmaker> yes
17:19:23  <planetmaker> that's where it needs the interface between NewGRF and GS
17:19:32  <planetmaker> that a GS can ask the industry to change production
17:22:04  <_dp_> aha, and some fallback stuff to do that if no grf answers the call %)
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17:29:26  <Terkhen> hello
17:29:36  <_dp_> at least can remove industry... though technically it's CmdLandscapeClear which can also do a lot of other stuff
17:30:19  <planetmaker> :)
17:30:25  <planetmaker> hi T :)
17:30:51  <_dp_> but don't see any harm in enabling it for OWNER_DEITY... with patching it everywhere for that ofc
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17:35:03  <_dp_> meh, that probably stands true for most of construction stuff))
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17:36:11  <_dp_> everith that doesn't build smth that requires owner
17:36:17  <_dp_> *everything
17:36:48  <planetmaker> _dp_, constructing rail as deity... doesn't quite work :)
17:36:54  <planetmaker> or must not
17:37:12  <_dp_> it requires owner, but removing... why not?
17:37:19  <planetmaker> oh, removing... yes
17:37:25  <planetmaker> ufo :)
17:38:05  <_dp_> although it may be useful to be able to construct stuff for specific company as deity
17:38:29  <planetmaker> well, you can do that as company and give the money
17:38:54  <planetmaker> what might be useful is means to set the authority rating for companies
17:39:34  <planetmaker> there might have been reason to not implement that, but I don't know which. And I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed by GS in deity mode
17:39:49  <_dp_> yeah, that definitely will be the first thing I do :)
17:41:24  <_dp_> though I'd really like to be able to just disable that authority stuff completely :)
17:41:41  <_dp_> not very fond of blocking mechanics in ttd
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17:45:54  <planetmaker> _dp_, I don't think there need be way to *disable* it. A GS could simply get means to either set it or to add a value to it
17:46:09  <planetmaker> both make sense
17:49:17  <Alberth> the idea is exactly to be annoying :)
17:50:18  <planetmaker> well, sure. But with the option to set it, it opens new possibilities for GS: to create events, both positive and negative
17:50:33  <planetmaker> and to simulate god-like building stuff in the name of a company as bonus
17:50:49  <planetmaker> of course it can be (ab)used to disable local authority rating, too.
17:50:49  <_dp_> there already is a setting to change it's severity, just no option to turn off for some reason. And I'd use it if there were as usually have more fun things to do than building trees ;)
17:51:43  <planetmaker> and indeed, logically there's no reason why there's no setting to disable it entirely - except that it's about one of the very few challanges left intrinsically to OpenTTD which cannot be ignored
17:53:50  <_dp_> for regular openttd yes, but I only play on goal servers, so have plenty of challenges, authority is just a nuisance in this case.
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18:03:02  <_dp_> hm, if I introduce new commands in patch, should I append them to the end of a list to preserve numeration or insert to where they logically belong?
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18:03:41  <_dp_> both ways would work I think...
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19:26:34  <Taede> evenink
19:26:54  <planetmaker> o/
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19:52:16  <planetmaker> is peculiar...
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19:54:40  <frosch123> well, either that guy uses a preprocessor, and then should also post the macros
19:54:54  <frosch123> or the whole code is bollocks
19:55:11  <frosch123> no point in guessing from that code
19:55:35  <frosch123> at work there was some source code that threw warning on compilarion, which noone could explain and made no sense
19:56:12  <frosch123> then more than a year later someone randomly discovered that some douchbag had a "#define if(a) ..." in some headerfile
19:56:46  <frosch123> which turned regular "if" into magic
19:56:47  <planetmaker> ho hi :)
19:56:58  <planetmaker> frosch123, I get that very same with that exact code snippet
19:57:07  <planetmaker> I can reproduce it with that minimal example
19:57:33  <planetmaker> (just using some numbers for the engineIDs in the first switch is required to reproduce it)
19:57:38  <frosch123> so you mean with those identifiers instead of values?
19:58:18  <frosch123> i.e. instead of "binary operator requires ..." it should say "undefined identifier ..."?
19:58:19  <planetmaker> hm? I mean as-is. It's not the identifier names which matter. I checked that first thing
19:59:16  <planetmaker>
20:00:57  <planetmaker> but I wonder that NML warns that both switches aren't used
20:02:29  <frosch123> i assume it's the "str2number" that breaks it?
20:02:34  <frosch123> i.e. does it work with some other value?
20:03:26  <planetmaker> if I replace that by a 4-byte number it's the same
20:04:03  <planetmaker> also with that whole switch disabled
20:04:51  <planetmaker> oh.... it's a *property*. Not a graphics block where he tries to call it!
20:05:25  <planetmaker> so yes, it must fail. But bad error message :)
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20:09:03  <frosch123> details :)
20:09:41  <frosch123> is there even a reason to distinguish properties and graphics? or should that get dropped in nml 0.5?
20:10:18  <frosch123> i suspect there are some arcane corner cases, like refittability with capacity > 0 :p
20:13:17  <planetmaker> It helps in definition of default cargoes, I *think*. But honestly I forgot and the distinction seems artificial. NMLC could simply use the default value as the property value
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20:14:10  <planetmaker> I created
20:20:55  <frosch123> night
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20:27:47  <_dp_> omg, there already is a method to get authority rating but for some reason it returns discrete values instead of just returning rating value as it is %)
20:27:49  <Wolf01> new feature for ottd: trains with rocket launchers which destroy industries
20:31:37  <planetmaker> _dp_, yes... but authority rating is not % internally either but a value -1000 ... +something
20:32:04  <planetmaker> it might make sense to expose that... but some people might want to discuss that
20:35:18  <_dp_> yeah, it seems like gs api tries to avoid exposing internal stuff but in fact that only makes it less useful
20:35:48  <_dp_> same stuff with growth rate, converting it do days and adding some bugs in a process %)
20:38:29  <planetmaker> well. The point in *not* exposing internals is that makes OpenTTD modifications much easier when there's a simple API
20:38:50  <planetmaker> then you can modify internals as you like. And simply convert the API values to the new internal system
20:39:16  <planetmaker> Thus keeping API something different without exposing implementation details allows better  future-proffness
20:39:16  <_dp_> well, then I think I'll just make setrating accepts same discrete values and leave arguing to those who care...
20:40:46  <_dp_> idk, I don't see any future for gs, so much future-proof it is now :P
20:41:20  <planetmaker> well, that's your choice then
20:42:43  <planetmaker> though I think the GS and AI interfaces work quite well. And extensions are always possible
20:43:33  <planetmaker> However exposing internals (like the detailed values for authority ratings) will need much more careful consideration than just means to set the rating via the existing interface values (those values which also the player sees)
20:46:41  <_dp_> I thought GS is a great thing before I actually tried to use it :)
20:47:18  <_dp_> it's good to be careful with api but not at the cost of reducing functionality
20:48:13  <_dp_> like, nobody came up with a good way to expose TOWN_IS_GROWING flag, so there is no way to know whether it is growing or not %)
20:51:02  <planetmaker> is not?
20:51:17  <_dp_> and the way gs is integrated, executing in external loop, once per frame with one command per frame limit... so much hassle to work around compared to just patching.
20:51:23  <planetmaker> to my understanding the GS sets explicitly how fast a town shall grow. And then OpenTTD ensures just that?
20:52:08  <_dp_> you can get growth_rate, but if town is on normal growth there is no way to know whether it is actually growing or not
20:52:55  <planetmaker> well, please implement such query function then
20:53:31  <planetmaker> There was never said that "this is it and no more". On the contrary: it was only always that implemented which someone asked for. And which then someone cared to actually implement
20:53:33  <_dp_> that even was discussed in flyspray somewhere, yet nothing was decided
20:53:44  <planetmaker> uhu
20:56:04  <planetmaker> sometimes discussions need time to hang and ripe till it's worth to pick them up again by possibly shining a new light on them :)
20:57:14  <_dp_>
21:02:10  <Wipe> what's the reason to disallow following vehicle on zoom > x4?
21:02:33  <planetmaker> there's no zoom > x4
21:03:01  <planetmaker> _dp_, I see...
21:05:01  <Wipe> ugh, i mean max zoomout; i can scroll to vehicle but not follow it
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21:07:14  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
21:07:14  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 2 hours, 20 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <andythenorth> he came, he went
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21:20:56  <planetmaker> _dp_, I think you might have had a chance if you actually followed-up on zuu's comments... (mind, I never was involved with the API, though)
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21:26:09  <FLHerne> Wipe: Huh, hadn't noticed that
21:26:42  <FLHerne> Presumably because redrawing the whole of such a large area of map each second would take too long
21:27:07  <FLHerne> *74th of a second
21:28:59  <_dp_> planetmaker, well, I'm not going to pick up developing The_Dude's CB script so not particularly interested in that flag, just mentioned it for example
21:29:49  <_dp_> would definitely need it for standalone script, but as long as I'm only concerned with running servers I don't need any getters, just stuff that actually does smth.
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21:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the new forum version still has that bug that doesn't reset the "unviewed posts" icon after a thread was moved
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23:08:41  <Wolf01> 'night
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