Log for #openttd on 17th November 2015:
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00:02:10  <drac_boy> hi
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00:22:13  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:41:11  <drac_boy> hi flherne? :)
00:42:01  <FLHerne> drac_boy: Morning
00:42:15  <drac_boy> its night :P
00:42:18  <drac_boy> hows you anyhow?
00:42:34  <FLHerne> Alright
00:42:57  <FLHerne> Fiddling with laptop atm, new Linux kernel makes it overheat
00:43:23  <FLHerne> Hopefully I can pin it down enough to know who to moan at
00:43:31  <drac_boy> mm what kind of laptop?
00:44:44  <FLHerne> Thinkpad X201
00:45:04  <FLHerne> Oldish, but it's solid and reasonably quick for its age
00:47:11  <drac_boy> hmm I dunno but to our own I guess after all :)
00:48:18  <FLHerne> Well, you can't get newer 12" laptops with a good keyboard and 5 USB ports :P
00:48:30  <FLHerne> Counting the expresscard slot
00:49:28  <drac_boy> if it was a standard laptop I would say maybe but seeing its one of these sim-down thing the cpu is crap for it ... thats why I dunno after all
00:49:34  <drac_boy> sim=slim*
00:49:44  <drac_boy> but either way hope you figure out something tho
00:51:37  <FLHerne> Huh? It's an i5-M580 - 2.6GHz (3.3GHz turbo) dual-core with HT
00:52:39  <FLHerne> Of course, the CPU being quite a bit faster than you'd typically get in a 12" laptop doesn't help with the temperature :P
00:53:02  <drac_boy> its not just the clock .. the tdp is a bit out of whack for such a shell :)
00:53:12  <FLHerne> But still, with linux 4.2.5 it idles about 35°C, 4.3.0 it idles about 55°C
00:53:31  <FLHerne> Presumably the frequency/power-scaling is borked
00:54:58  <FLHerne> Ah, I think I misunderstood "seeing its one of these sim-down thing the cpu is crap for it"
00:56:20  <FLHerne> Yes, the TDP is rather high for something this size. OTOH, it's actually faster than an X240 from three years later, because they've got painfully slow U-series processors
00:57:26  <drac_boy> well the math isn't difficult .. a low power cpu running at full clock or a high power cpu being constantly throttled ... remind me why I only touch older laptops period .. but like I probably said - to our own :)
00:58:10  <drac_boy> some of the dell laptops were really crappy...ran slower than a P-M cpu even although theres an "intel i5" sticker on -_-
01:02:27  <FLHerne> I've not noticed this one running hot enough to be throttled, at constant full load it peaks at about 65-70°C
01:02:28  <FLHerne> Does lack a decent GPU though, the IGP is hopeless
01:02:28  <FLHerne> Despite that I've given it 8GB of RAM, an SSD, 3G and a couple of spare batteries, not planning to replace it anytime soon
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01:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: the 500's are going even more on my nerves than the old forum message about nightly backup...
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08:12:52  <Wolf01> o/
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09:54:13  <fjb> ÂŽMoin
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10:09:18  <andythenorth> much regret
10:10:20  <V453000> what up andythenorth
10:10:44  <andythenorth> "# !! this will need to handle economy variations also...might be non-viable in current form"
10:10:49  <andythenorth> comments from my code :P
10:11:12  <andythenorth> when you expect something to just work, and then you look why, and then you find your own comments about unfinished code :P
10:11:24  <andythenorth> and then a 5 minute thing is a 50 minute thing
10:11:25  <andythenorth> :P
10:11:30  <andythenorth> that
10:12:41  <V453000> yay
10:12:55  <V453000> fuck code, draw pixelz to be licked
10:16:13  * andythenorth shuns the pixles
10:16:56  <V453000> I honestly kind of miss pixel drawing but time is enemy
10:19:19  <andythenorth> I kind of miss CGI
10:19:26  <andythenorth> the power to generate basic forms, and light them
10:19:44  <andythenorth> I was slow though, I never found a tool where I got on with the mesh modelling
10:19:54  <andythenorth> so I used to draw splines in illustrator and extrude them
10:22:22  <V453000> hm :)
10:22:49  <V453000> I guess I was just nostalgically looking at old coop games with old graphics too much yesterday
10:26:43  <andythenorth> V453000:
10:26:45  <andythenorth> also
10:27:00  <andythenorth> 14 years ago, nearly exactly :P
10:27:25  <V453000> serioze lens flare
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10:27:46  <andythenorth> all about the lighting for me :P
10:27:51  <andythenorth> best looped :P
10:28:19  <V453000> well nowadays things are more fun :P
10:28:48  <V453000> did this recently
10:29:03  <andythenorth> that grab animation was probably several days of work for me then, and the animation was still crappy
10:29:07  <andythenorth> the weighting is all wrong
10:29:17  <V453000> should be fun when combined with this
10:29:38  <V453000> well animation always takes time to be done properly
10:30:28  <andythenorth> ho the furnace is nice
10:31:15  * andythenorth now considering creating an animated movie again
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10:32:34  <V453000> FIRS = each industry is a chapter of the story?
10:32:46  <V453000> make all chains running to uncover the whole story?
10:33:08  <V453000> you could probably make a HD movie in x4 zoom
10:33:24  <V453000> 666 GB newGRF?
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10:33:43  <V453000> it is a great plan andythenorth, you should go make it happen
10:34:19  <andythenorth> I could just make the movie, and stop OpenTTD stuff? o_O
10:36:30  <V453000> it will probably be train porn or industrial machinery NSFW stuff, you can put that into OpenTTD as well
10:36:38  <V453000> mayhaps lego wtf
10:42:17  <andythenorth> it will mostly be at night, minimal lighting
10:42:21  <andythenorth> to avoiding modelling stuff
10:43:50  <andythenorth> so what is the cool kids using for CGI now?  Blender?
10:44:00  <andythenorth> I can’t use max, and I won’t use maya
10:44:09  * andythenorth wonders if Cinema 4D is still bonkers
10:45:27  <andythenorth> wow, £2600
11:01:49  <V453000> blender is usable but be ready to get your nerves demolished many times
11:02:42  <V453000> max is kind of stable, many general things are worse than blender, but it has many other extra functions ... and if you want to do basic-ish simulations of all kinds, blender is better
11:03:18  <V453000> maya is getting better and better with each year, lately a lot of modelling tools were added, max is probably more general but maya is probably way more worth the moneyz
11:03:39  <V453000> cinema 4D is great for motion graphics, especially if you link it with after effects
11:05:08  <V453000> probably just go for blender, unless you want big sophisticated render trees and dont mind figuring out a wtf issue here and there, it is best
11:05:18  <V453000> price 0 makes a lot of it :)
11:05:46  <andythenorth> yeah :P
11:05:55  <andythenorth> I can buy after effects instead :P
11:06:04  <V453000> yayz
11:06:12  <V453000> I kind of miss 3 things in max
11:06:55  <V453000> the insane amount of super useful modelling tools, modelling in modifier layers, and perfect control of automated rendering and many options with it
11:07:13  <V453000> blender modelling is kind of quick, but many of the advanced tools are not there at all, which is a gigantic shame
11:07:48  <V453000> modelling modifier layers just add so much depth to workflow, you can enable them or disable them at any point and once you know what you are doing, they can be really powerful
11:08:04  <V453000> you can kind of create versions for all things without saving 1298342987 scene files
11:08:15  <V453000> and the automated rendering in blender is just complete horseshit
11:09:13  <V453000> I guess you are expected to use scripting languages and shit with blender, linux logic
11:09:37  * andythenorth just wants nice lighting :P
11:26:26  <V453000> go blend shit
11:26:32  <V453000> cycles renderer is really good
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16:06:33  <Wolf01> mmmh, moving with vectors scares me
16:06:58  <Wolf01> i got the idea, i know how vectors work
16:07:11  <Wolf01> i can't apply it to a game XD
16:15:20  <andythenorth> ?
16:24:33  <Wolf01> also "right" seem to not be a valid direction, the object bounches up and down, tries to go left, but right is unknown
16:26:35  <Wolf01> my fault, wrong range of values
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16:33:14  <Wolf01> o/
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16:43:31  <Alberth> moin
16:43:32  <napoleon> Hi, I have basic question. I run OpenTTD using Windows and want to add some newgrfs to game, and I downloaded *.tar.gz files. But all downloaded by game newgrfs are *.tar files. Can I use *.tar.gz files? Or how I can plug it to game on Windows?
16:44:10  <Alberth> you have to g(un)zip the .tar.gz files to .tar
16:44:21  <Alberth> or unpack to directory structure
16:44:52  <Alberth> as for proper placement, have a look at the readme file, it explains it all
16:45:14  <Alberth> (I don't have windows, no idea where it is supposed to go there)
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16:47:59  <Eearslya> meow
16:48:29  <Alberth> meep meep
16:48:43  <napoleon> I can ungzip all of newgrfs and zip in different *.tar files, if it is right way to plug it... Perhaps there is a more appropriate way to do it.
16:49:59  <Alberth> napoleon: gzip compresses bla to bla.gz (only adding .gz extension), and thus also  foo.tar to foo.tar.gz
16:50:24  <Alberth> gunzip works the other way around (just stripping .gz)
16:50:52  <Alberth> however, on windows, archiving tools may try to be smart, and also unpack the tar file  :(
16:51:36  <Alberth> I don't know what "zip" you have, but "tar" files are made with "tar", normally
16:51:59  <Alberth> again, windows tools may try to be smart here, and be very unpredictable
16:52:11  <Eearslya> 7-zip master race
16:53:42  <Alberth> "tar" just merges a directory with files to a single file, it does NOT compress at all
16:57:54  <Mazur> tar has built in compression routines.
16:58:36  <Alberth> gnu tar has, bsd tar has not
16:58:44  <Mazur> tar czvf uses zip, tar xjvf bz2, tar cJvf xz.
16:58:46  <Mazur> Ah, ok.
17:00:47  <Mazur> Haven't touched a BSD in yonkers.
17:03:30  <Alberth> the trouble is that all windows tools combine tar and compression in one, so on windows, tar is extremely weird :)
17:37:02  <Mazur> Of course, you're talking about Micro-SoftInTheBrain.
17:38:04  <Eddi|zuHause> napoleon: you don't need to keep it in a .tar, it's just for convenience. you can also have all the files in a subdirectory
17:38:07  <Wolf01> hey they improved a lot, at least now you can mount iso images directly
17:46:17  <Alberth> I tried windows a few times at a laptop this summer, but it's a big maze to me, they are experts in creating error messages without telling what is actually wrong
17:46:38  <Alberth> not to mention "updates" take a large part of a day
17:47:17  <peter1138> Only if there's a massive backlog.
17:47:39  <Eddi|zuHause> updates are particularly annoying if you use the system infrequently
17:48:09  <Wolf01> the only thing i hate about windows 10 is that the interface is really incoherent and it has a lot of redundant things (2 control panels, 2 image viewers, 2 calculators...)
17:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you boot it up and it takes 3 hours to get to a usable state
17:48:22  <Alberth> but even then, the program must be awfully stupid to need hours for an update
17:48:58  <Alberth> note that it was at a university, loads of bandwidth there
17:49:43  <Alberth> Wolf01: the interface has always been inconsistent as far as i know
17:49:56  <Wolf01> not much like now
17:50:03  <Alberth> ok, could be
17:50:23  <Wolf01> there is a mix of flat, black&white, 3D icons
17:50:46  <Alberth> lol
17:51:20  <Wolf01> you can't understand what window has the focus (this will be addressed in the next patch) because the window title is gray
17:52:02  <Alberth> still no focus follows mouse? :)
17:52:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i never actually used win10
17:52:22  <Wolf01> no, but now you can scroll a window which doesn't have focus
17:52:44  <Wolf01> which is nice if you are chatting and browsing/reading
17:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause> mouse-focus is a feature i immediately miss
17:53:04  <__ln__> and more specifically, you can scroll whatever component is under the mouse, not just the window.
17:53:10  <Alberth> ah, and move a popup below the popup with focus, which needs a value of the window below the lower popup?
17:53:29  <Wolf01> oh, there is the mouse-focus in the ease of access features
17:53:42  <Alberth> revolution!
17:53:53  <Wolf01> but i didn't like it as it is different from x-mouse
17:54:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but does it allow windows to have focus which are not on top?
17:54:03  <Wolf01> or at least that was the feel
17:54:23  <__ln__> there's another huge advancement in windows 10... freely resizeable command prompt window!
17:54:45  <Wolf01> eh, yes, that too
17:55:09  <Alberth> just 20 years until realizing command-line does have its uses :p
17:55:09  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, iirc it brings on top the window you are hovering
17:55:24  <Alberth> ieks
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17:56:47  <Wolf01> oh, they also added multiple desktops
17:57:21  <Wolf01> never used it :P
17:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i hardly ever use that on linux
17:58:10  <Wolf01> with 2 monitors i don't find it useful
17:59:03  * __ln__ has 3 monitors
17:59:31  * Wolf01 doesn't have space for a third one
18:00:12  <napoleon> Thanks. So, I just ungzip *.tar.gz files each in its dir, and move to content_download subdirs.
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18:00:48  <__ln__> one problem though, OpenTTD doesn't work too well on 2 or 3 monitors.
18:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> napoleon: no, don't manually put stuff in content_download
18:01:14  <napoleon> And it is work. xxx/x.grf works like xxx.tar/x.grf
18:01:30  <Eddi|zuHause> put it into the appropriate directory in the parent directory
18:01:42  <napoleon> But xxx.tar.gz/x.grf doesn't work on Windows.
18:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't work on any other platform either
18:02:45  <napoleon> I mean eg content_download/newgrf/xxx/x.grf
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18:03:53  <napoleon> it's strange there is no support of gzip in Windows
18:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not strange if you ever followed the policies of microsoft...
18:04:45  <napoleon> And I can't rehash *.tar and *.tar.gz with some content
18:06:26  <napoleon> Microsoft don't give rights to use GNU unzip? or haven't it?
18:07:16  <glx> just use 7zip to open every thing
18:08:27  <__ln__> napoleon: MSIE can decompress gzip for obvious reasons. Dunno if you can make it decompress local files though.
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18:15:02  <napoleon> I have no problem to unzip or zip files with another soft, but why OpenTTD can't detect tar.gz
18:15:38  <napoleon> It just isn't comfortable
18:16:01  <Alberth> it opens the grf file to read while playing, so it needs an uncompressed version
18:17:10  <napoleon> So problem is in realtime decompression.
18:17:47  <napoleon> But *NIX and linux can do it.
18:17:56  <napoleon> Versions of OTTD
18:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they cannot
18:18:03  <Alberth> openttd does random seeking
18:18:19  <Alberth> not only from start to end, as all archive tools do
18:24:31  <peter1138> It are wet.
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20:13:25  <drac_boy> hi
20:22:48  <andythenorth> peter1138: it are Barney out there
20:23:27  <frosch123> english only :p
20:25:37  <drac_boy> any uk train person here? just curious
20:26:17  <frosch123> eddi
20:31:51  * andythenorth keeps very very quiet
20:35:07  <Alberth> you?
20:36:54  <andythenorth> you?
20:37:10  <Alberth> I mean drac_boy
20:37:16  <drac_boy> either way one of the few things I was wondering about is if uk had any kind of regularity in a branchline thats worked by a tender locomotive but often with short trains (say two or three bogie coaches)
20:37:25  <drac_boy> alberth..nope...canada here :)
20:37:34  <V453000> SUP HUMANZ BRING THA NOIZ
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20:40:20  <andythenorth> drac_boy: you want proof of this, or to know if it was common?
20:41:00  <drac_boy> latter
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20:51:12  <andythenorth> have you tried google?
20:51:14  <andythenorth> o_O
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20:53:53  <NGC3982> Oh, you guys talk.
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21:05:14  <drac_boy> andy that always come back with model product shots for some reason (unless the spider is not understanding what eg "ivatt 4MT branchline train" means)
21:07:00  <andythenorth> it’s because you’re using branchline
21:07:04  <andythenorth> so you get bachman
21:09:19  <andythenorth> my guess: you’d mostly find tank engines, because tender-first running was not the regular rule
21:09:29  <andythenorth> and branch lines don’t have turntables at the terminus
21:09:57  <drac_boy> funny thing is almost none of these are bachmann...they're hornby 0_o
21:10:15  <andythenorth> I could find you pictures of tender engines on local trains, but eh
21:10:17  <andythenorth> I dunno
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21:12:43  <drac_boy> yeah thanks anyway .. and btw andy not quite related but the Black Five did turn up at least twice with only one single noncorridor coach (the photographer suspected the depot was really short on power that day)
21:12:51  <drac_boy> talk about an odd sight :)
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21:16:54  <drac_boy> oh, if anyone want to get lost in a sea of turnouts then feel free to walk around here :p
21:17:41  <frosch123> it takes ages to drive into that station
21:18:24  <frosch123> once i missed a train, and though "let's go via frankfurt, i may catch up" :p
21:18:41  <drac_boy> heh let me guess, you missed it there too? :P
21:19:32  <frosch123> i got the next one, which also drove by my regular station
21:19:45  <frosch123> so, i spend some time inside a train, instead of waiting for the same one
21:20:21  <drac_boy> I see :)
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21:23:43  <drac_boy> that photo does remind me tho..I forgot the class # (remind me to check for that magazine later) but db had been retiring a lot of a particular diesel locomotive nicknamed "pigs" (due to their exhaust apparently) due to the ever-ongoing introduction of dmu/emu sets
21:23:59  <drac_boy> out of the 140+ before now only <60 are left and still dwindling :-s
21:24:25  <drac_boy> at least I haven't heard anything new about the axle problems their s-bahn trains were having
21:25:00  <frosch123> i only know a train named pig-snout
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21:25:02  <frosch123> but it is ancient
21:25:15  <frosch123>
21:25:25  <drac_boy> heh pigsnout..that only can be the little VT133? :)
21:25:30  <drac_boy> figured :p
21:28:34  <drac_boy> frosch if you want small without the snout .. there is always VT95 .. as I recall a few are still running in scheduled service outside germany too
21:29:20  <drac_boy> at least I think they had much better ride than the so-called uk versions (and you wonder why the uk ones had strange nicknames)
21:33:33  <drac_boy> anyway have fun as I'm going off for now :)
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21:36:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i was actually never in frankfurt...
21:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i was in the other frankfurt :p
21:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't go there by train
21:38:50  <__ln__> i was in both
21:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> some headlines genuinely scare me...
21:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "English and French sing Marseillaise in Wembley"... that's certainly not the most peaceful song they could be singing...
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21:53:09  <Mazur> National anthems rarely are.
21:57:18  <__ln__> we need a statistics for that
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23:26:54  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:51:42  <drac_boy> hi for a bit
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23:59:49  <drac_boy> hi sim-a12
23:59:52  <drac_boy> hows you?

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