Log for #openttd on 24th November 2015:
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00:53:48  <Wolf01> 'night
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09:49:43  <Wolf01> hi hi
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12:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> followup:
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12:48:44  <__ln___>
13:36:56  <Wolf01> tl;dr
13:37:12  <Wolf01> but i think i got the idea
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14:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> video of the talk might be more helpful
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14:36:50  <Mazur> Oh, you've finally had "the talk"?
14:38:51  <Mazur> Shouldn't your dad or mom have taken you apart for that years ago?
15:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you're talking about.
15:10:29  <Mazur> Never mind, then.  (It was a joke).
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15:43:57  <Alberth> moin
15:45:16  <andythenorth> o/
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15:48:02  <Mazur> You said it, not I.
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16:57:39  * andythenorth considers adding Yet Another Port to FIRS
16:57:49  <andythenorth> currently have: Bulk Terminal, Trading Post, Port
16:58:00  <Alberth> make a port economy :p
16:58:29  <andythenorth> this is a spiffing idea
16:58:33  <andythenorth> Only Ports
16:59:12  <Alberth> it may need a space port?  :)
17:00:13  <Alberth> or an 'air' port
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18:45:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27456 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt spanish.txt) (2015-11-24 19:45:15 +0100 )
18:45:25  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:26  <DorpsGek> korean - 7 changes by telk5093
18:45:27  <DorpsGek> spanish - 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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19:30:22  <Alberth> hoi
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19:30:48  <Alberth> and hi
19:30:55  <frosch123> hola hi hoi
19:32:10  <frosch123> do you have a good idea for commandline options to lang_sync to upload specific languages?
19:32:24  <frosch123> currently there is "upload-base" and "upload-translations"
19:32:58  <frosch123> i wonder about adding new commands like "upload-dutch", "upload-nl_NL"
19:33:10  <frosch123> or to add other parameters
19:33:28  <frosch123> "--lang dutch --lang de_DE upload-translations"
19:33:36  <frosch123> both don't look good :)
19:34:04  <Alberth> hmm, there is not the option to list the languages?
19:34:51  <frosch123> no :p
19:35:04  <andythenorth> o/
19:35:05  <frosch123> it only distinguishes base and non-base
19:35:23  <Alberth> ah, indeed, must be confused with some other language tool
19:35:40  <frosch123> combining the language name with the "upload-" prefix would looks somewhat consistent
19:35:48  <frosch123> but is non-standard at best :)
19:35:57  <Alberth> yep, I like that idea
19:36:31  <Alberth> like   cat --file a --file b   ?
19:41:38  <frosch123>
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19:44:57  <Alberth> 1 looks best to me, imho
19:45:39  <Alberth> they make "base" and "translations" an abbreviation/alternative
19:46:06  <frosch123> yup, i also like 1
19:47:36  <frosch123> but it cannot be extended to also accept filenames
19:51:14  <Alberth> hmm :(
19:51:54  <Alberth>  --upload "dutch german foo.txt"  ?
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19:52:20  <Alberth> bit tricky if you have spaces in the filename :p
19:52:32  <frosch123> yup, it needs multiple --upload
19:52:48  <frosch123> --upload-file foo.txt --upload-lang dutch
19:53:19  <Alberth> not too bad, since it's a script anyway, normally
19:53:48  <Alberth> manually, you'd do 1 file at a time, I guess
19:54:34  <frosch123> well, this leads to either 3 or 4
19:54:40  <frosch123> but then i prefer 3
19:56:09  <Alberth> 3 needs upload/download to be added?
19:56:32  <Alberth> or does "--lang dutch" do both?
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19:58:42  <frosch123>
20:00:01  <frosch123> --file doesn't really make sense for download
20:00:07  <frosch123> --lang could also work for download
20:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't "download --file=german.txt" make sense?
20:02:26  <Eddi|zuHause> or let me rephrase that: define a semantics, let the user make sense of the semantics?
20:02:49  <frosch123> what would it do?
20:03:06  <frosch123> if german.txt exists, it would read the langid from that file, and then download the language
20:03:11  <frosch123> if it does not exist, it does what?
20:03:32  <frosch123> people could think to combine it with --lang, but that makes everything even more inconsistent
20:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so, it doesn't internally keep track of filenames?
20:04:22  <frosch123> depends :p
20:04:40  <frosch123> newgrfs use the ##grflangid, and don't care about the filename
20:04:51  <frosch123> gamescripts only use the filename, there is no id within the file
20:04:55  <frosch123> openttd, i forgot
20:05:09  <Alberth> should have ##grflangid :p
20:05:25  <Alberth> I  copied them from there
20:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> ok. semantics: get the file (if available), throw error message if not.
20:06:17  <Alberth> good night, I trust you will make something sane :)
20:06:43  <frosch123> maybe i make coffee :p
20:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause>
20:07:42  <Alberth> that sounds sane :)
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20:13:33  <Rubidium> frosch123: I would definitely use the iso language code, otherwise someone will try "upload-english"
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20:14:20  <Rubidium> and which English is it (also, how to handle parentheses and spaces?)
20:15:36  <frosch123> <- there is only one "english" in third column
20:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause> LANGNAME obviously needs "" if it contains special characters. and filenames as well, but no sane person should do that
20:17:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's what the shell handles for you
20:17:27  <frosch123> i don't need to care about that
20:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:17:53  <Rubidium> frosch123: true, but that isn't the language but rather a file name without extension
20:18:07  <frosch123> ok, but it is what i meant :p
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20:57:27  <planetmaker> frosch123, my 2ct on eints new parameters: 3) "lang_sync --lang dutch --lang de_DE upload-translations" (filter parameter, default="all languages") looks best to me
20:58:47  <frosch123> i guess that's what we concluded with :)
21:00:13  <planetmaker> oki :)
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21:02:31  <drac_boy> hi
21:18:28  <andythenorth> gold or not gold?
21:19:26  <drac_boy> for what? :)
21:20:43  <andythenorth> FIRS economy
21:20:48  <andythenorth> basic arctic
21:21:21  <drac_boy> hmm...where would the gold had been going to if it was to exist?
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21:22:22  <frosch123> is chemicals your new favorite cargo?
21:22:55  <andythenorth> apparently
21:23:02  <andythenorth> it was always a big deal in FIRS :P
21:23:12  <andythenorth> ‘better living through chemistry’ etc
21:23:42  <andythenorth>
21:26:06  * andythenorth considers renaming chemicals to ‘stuff’
21:26:31  <andythenorth> ‘matter’, ‘abstract concepts’, ‘formal relations'
21:27:00  <andythenorth> philosophical economy :P
21:27:13  <andythenorth> “deliver 21 crates of reason”
21:27:22  <drac_boy> as long as you got a good name for beef ;)
21:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't gold mining something you'd rather find in 3rd world countries?
21:27:48  <drac_boy> eddi well africa may have a lot of the diamond mines but they still also exist in bc,canada .. australia .. etc
21:27:53  <drac_boy> unrelated but just an example
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21:28:46  <drac_boy> and btw eddi sorry to ask but what was the acroymn you mentioned again re that other electrical-than-physical brake system on some of the berlin bahn?
21:29:26  * andythenorth might ignore gold
21:29:31  <Eddi|zuHause> ETCS
21:29:33  <andythenorth> there’s enough cargos, strictly
21:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember using any other acronyms
21:29:59  <Eddi|zuHause> ETCS is the new european standard
21:30:04  <drac_boy> ah .. etcs .. no wonder I mispelled it and wondered why I couldn't figure out anything
21:30:09  <drac_boy> thanks
21:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's meant to make european railroads more interchangable. but it's probably 50 years away from achieving that :p
21:31:23  <andythenorth> always start early :P
21:31:41  <andythenorth> do I need a tyre plant?
21:31:45  <andythenorth> could deliver rubber to plastics plant
21:31:50  <drac_boy> if I had a few lines of my own I wouldn't had bother..but to our own on that tho
21:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well, railways still use mechanical signalling systems that were installed over 100 years ago...
21:32:12  * andythenorth could use synthetic rubber only
21:33:14  <sim-al2> I think most countries are slowly removing the remaining mechanical signals now
21:33:31  <drac_boy> beside it seem pointless to have overlaps anyway
21:33:36  <sim-al2> In favor of color lights or just straight to cab signaling
21:33:36  <drac_boy> oh and hi sim-a12
21:33:38  <sim-al2> hi
21:33:57  <drac_boy> how doing?
21:34:00  <sim-al2> good
21:34:19  <sim-al2> and you?
21:34:56  <andythenorth> ha ha
21:35:00  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ^
21:35:14  <andythenorth> that is neat, and definitely a bit over-engineered
21:35:24  <sim-al2> So here's a question for you Eddi: Do the mainline railways in Europe use signal overlaps?
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21:37:28  <drac_boy> doing ok.long morning to early afternoon but being bit lazy for now before sorting out supper and a bit of paperworks altogether :->
21:38:41  <frosch123> sim-al2: according to german wikipedia, 1 in 100000 trains stop after passing the signals
21:39:06  <frosch123> 50% stop less than 10 meter after the signal, 10% stop more than 50 meter after the signal
21:39:58  <frosch123> <- there is a table with speed limits and required safe distance after signals
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21:41:53  * drac_boy also had a bit fun not even finding any good photos of the rhb g 3/4 locomotive in normal operation either :->
21:42:09  <Rubidium> frosch123: what does 1:100.000 trains mean? Is a train the phyisical thing, or the planned thing (i.e. one physical train being planned as multiple trains), and is it per passing of signal or per day or per ???
21:42:33  <sim-al2> Interesting, I read on a forum (so maybe not correct) that the signaling setup used by Amtrak (Northeast Corridor) does not allow for an overlap
21:43:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <sim-al2> I think most countries are slowly removing the remaining mechanical signals now <-- the emphasis is on "slow"
21:43:18  <Rubidium> in the NLs there were 49 trains that passed a red signal
21:43:25  <andythenorth> SPADs :P
21:43:39  <andythenorth> there is an entire YT sub-genre about SPADs
21:43:55  <andythenorth> but then there is probably an entire YT sub-genre for every word in the dictionary
21:44:29  <sim-al2> And furthermore, the ACSES (safety system) forces a stop short of a signal, and if the post I read was correct, doesn't allow a train to approach the signal without using the override button (which requires dispatcher permission)
21:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: rule 34?
21:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: so that just means the safety distance is _before_ the signal, not _after_ it?
21:45:37  <frosch123> Rubidium: per "train is approaching red signal and needs to stop"
21:45:45  <drac_boy> and have any of you ever seen a koploper and tgv swiped together? :)
21:46:25  <sim-al2> Apparently (according to some thread posts), if a signal is at the end of a platform, a train couldn't even draw up to the platform without permission
21:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i've never (physically) seen either a koploper or a tgv
21:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: well. i know almost nothing about "foreign" signalling systems
21:47:35  <drac_boy> eddi well I dunno why I seem to be able to recall it but it was a strange one where one train (I believe it was the tgv) crept past a red signal and of course the computer didn't act because it was below 20kph .. and swiped into the path of other train
21:47:54  <drac_boy> and heres the aftermath of it
21:48:14  <drac_boy> apparently the system they had didn't work at crawl speeds
21:48:31  <Rubidium> drac_boy: s/had/have/
21:49:04  <drac_boy> I believe it was amended/replaced already .. or thats what one of the outcome objective was
21:49:07  <Rubidium> though they're improving it by some tweaks
21:49:40  <Rubidium> but a) they haven't finished yet, b) they started with the high risk locations, c) I doubt they'll ever finish it
21:49:46  <sim-al2> Isn't that a problem with the old ATS though, in that it didn't have a stop enforcement component, only that acknowledgement was required?
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21:51:23  <sim-al2> Ok found the post if anyone wants to read through it: (starts here and a few posts down
21:51:46  <Rubidium> drac_boy: <- another Koploper ;)
21:51:49  <sim-al2> I just find the idea weird that signaling practices could vary so much
21:52:18  <sim-al2> Considering that otherwise many signaling practices are found worldwide
21:52:30  <drac_boy> ohh yeah that reminds me of a more grim accident .. I still rather seriously believe that the Talgo 730 should not have a genset thats mounted way above the chassis line without the trainset's maximum speed at *any* time being derated accordingly
21:52:57  <sim-al2> I like that the bicyclists immediatly back up
21:53:07  <drac_boy> (yep that spain curve overspeed where it was the diesel car that first started the derailing)
21:53:30  <sim-al2> Rubidium: Did the train split the switch there?
21:54:30  <Rubidium> the switch actuator broke which caused the trailing wagons to take another route, but the train remained connected
21:54:48  <sim-al2> In the Talgo derailment, the train was very much over the speed limit anyway, the generator car just happened to be the first to go, the locomotive probably would have gone if the train was much faster
21:56:30  <drac_boy> sim-a12 well the problem is..derailing with equal gravity would had been less messy than the heavy car jacking thing ... just ask the prior tgv accidents
21:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: the problem there was at the end of the new high-speed signalling system it didn't enforce lowering the speed to the "normal" level
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21:57:02  <Rubidium> well, time for ERTMS level 3
21:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so the train took a 80km/h curve with like 200km/h
21:57:45  * Rubidium wonders what happened with the French system one and a half week ago
21:58:00  * andythenorth wondered that too
21:58:05  <sim-al2> It's true that the signaling system was not adequete for the end of a high-speed segment therw
21:58:17  <drac_boy> ouch .. that koploper splitting it .. thankful for the platforms to "contain" it from doing a zig-zag onto the ground
21:58:26  <drac_boy> (I think....anyway)
21:58:52  <sim-al2>
21:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: what exploded there at 0:16?
21:59:13  <sim-al2> Looks like the catenary shorted out on the train?
21:59:28  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's the catenary shorting
21:59:29  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the catenary short circuited
21:59:38  <Rubidium> drac_boy: what platforms?
21:59:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think it was a test run above the speed limit, and the brake was too late
22:00:36  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: 10% above speed limit, and at least 1 minute late... and you reckon one of the seven in the cab would have noticed it earlier...
22:00:40  <sim-al2> The article claims 90km/h above the speed limit
22:01:12  <Rubidium> sim-al2: the test run was for 10% above the speed limit, but due to breaking too late it was way way over speed
22:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i don't think signalling helps for such exception tests
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22:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> they probably disabled some security systems
22:02:31  <sim-al2> Yes, it took a curve far too fast at the junction between the new segment and the exisiting track
22:02:33  <sim-al2>
22:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: most of the wagons did not leave the rails, no platforms involved
22:03:29  <sim-al2> The scheduled speed was 176km/h, but the train entered at 265km/h
22:04:44  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: both TVM-430 and ERTMS were disabled
22:04:46  <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: i don't speak enough french to understand that
22:04:52  <glx> Rubidium: braking 10s too late
22:05:14  <glx> and way too many people in a test train
22:05:19  <sim-al2> And derailed at 243km/h , I think the curve was 945m radius
22:05:46  <sim-al2> I don't either, but I know what I'm looking for (and Google translate :) )
22:06:25  <Rubidium>
22:07:02  <Rubidium> glx: and the graph says 1 km... my mistake (I remembered wrong)
22:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so it was 1km too late
22:10:34  <sim-al2> Appearently some employees had their children onboard
22:11:12  <drac_boy> looks like the talgo diesel was mounted right over the truck (rather than slung low on the chassis rails?) with a 6600kg weight (which I assume is the total car weight but likely more than half of that nearly halfway up)
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22:11:34  <drac_boy> 1800kW engine
22:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i don't see how that is relevant
22:13:11  <drac_boy> if it was not so heavy on gravity (or mounted properly low to more match the existing trainset) it wouldn't had been as bad
22:13:55  <sim-al2> The locomotive has a decent center of gravity too, the speed was traveling so fast that anything could have caused a derailment
22:14:08  <sim-al2> *train was traveling
22:14:25  <drac_boy> sim-a12 except that if it was the front to come first it would had been a different lighter fail
22:14:57  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that is pure speculation
22:15:01  <sim-al2> There's still a concrete wall on the outside of an 80km/h curve
22:15:05  <drac_boy> although in some cases agriculation counts (as the tgv's history showed)
22:15:47  <glx> 7 people in the cab
22:16:24  <drac_boy> glx..I'm still curious why childs could had been on that non-public train but mm going wait for the magazine to follow up on it yet :-s
22:17:09  <glx> usually familly
22:17:11  <drac_boy> oh uggg....forgot been talking for a while..sorry need to afk to get supper ready before seven -_-
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22:17:42  <sim-al2> The children shouldn't have been there, but I suppose the other employees didn't want to confront their parents about that
22:19:37  <glx> anyway 7 people in the cab for a test run is too much
22:20:13  <sim-al2> The World Speed record run had a number in the cab, it's a pretty big space
22:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: btw. there is a longer version of the report here:
22:24:25  <FLHerne> WCRC are banned from operating steam locos in the UK again, for disabling overspeed protection while running...
22:24:53  <sim-al2> Ok, I just watched the CCTV footage from the Spain derailment, the generator car goes first but even in the fuuzy footage you can see the locomotive is nearly off the inner rail too
22:25:13  <FLHerne> They were banned for weeks earlier in the year for exactly the same reason, should've taken the hint
22:25:35  <sim-al2> And of course the whole train follows the generator car instead of being pulled off like the locomotive
22:26:01  <sim-al2> Wow those guys did that AGAIN? I thought they were lucky to be allowed back
22:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (also an english version here:
22:27:35  <FLHerne> sim-al2: Yup. The full report for the first time around hasn't even been issued yet :-/
22:27:45  <FLHerne> But then, DCR got away with Stafford
22:28:03  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I read the actual report
22:28:29  <sim-al2> I remember the report for the Candian oil shipment derailment took a while (months), but that required a detailed assessment
22:29:43  <Rubidium> sim-al2: this report took 11 months
22:30:15  <sim-al2> Shouldn't that impact on the wheels be detected by an inspection train?
22:30:52  <glx> yeah inspections, tell that to killed people at bretigny
22:31:46  <sim-al2> You're speaking to the choir here
22:31:54  <glx> inspections are useless if nothing is done after them
22:33:18  <Rubidium> sim-al2: inspection trains don't detect impact on the wheels, what can be detected are the gaps in the gauge but due to the wheels moving the flange the measurements are wrong
22:33:28  <sim-al2> That's very true, sometimes I'm surprised how few accidents occur
22:33:50  <Rubidium> having said that, with linescan video you could notice the effects of driving against the flange
22:34:57  <Rubidium> furthermore, back then the infrastructure owner didn't do switch measurements by train yet and no other measurements (besides manual ones) have measurements for the flange gap
22:35:43  <sim-al2> That's an interesting form of fatigue failure, I almost would expect the switch rail to fail due to fatigue stress caused by the flange contacts
22:36:52  <glx> bretigny was clearly a lack of maintainance
22:36:57  <Rubidium> the switch rail can easily deform, the joint that broke can't. Not to mention that the joint was designed to break at a particular force
22:37:43  <glx> missing screws, unsecured bolts
22:39:07  <Rubidium> also a fun factoid... once looking at rail "in real life" was replaced by looking at pictures of rail in the office the inspection frequency was slowly lowered due to the fact that more was spotted earlier and trends could be seen by looking at previous images
22:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what was bretigny again?
22:41:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that thing where the train went over the platform?
22:41:37  <sim-al2>
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22:45:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so, yes.
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22:51:50  <glx> recent weird incident was the train unable to brake after a collision with a cow
22:52:08  <glx> makes no sense to me
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