Log for #openttd on 12th December 2015:
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08:07:24  <andythenorth> o/
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10:33:39  <Alberth> hoi
10:34:13  <frosch123> hola
10:35:38  <planetmaker> moin
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10:36:15  <Wolf01> o/
10:36:51  <Alberth> o/
10:37:21  <frosch123> all weirdos arrived
10:37:24  <frosch123> channel operational
10:37:32  <Wolf01> the post office is a pita
10:37:40  <Wolf01> :D frosch123
10:40:31  <V453000> heyo
10:40:44  <V453000> ok so my vehicle offsets fucked up
10:40:52  <V453000> what else would I have expected
10:41:22  <Alberth> everything going according to plan thus :p
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10:46:35  <V453000> idk why did I make vehicle sprites 256x320
10:46:39  <V453000> consistency, duh
10:49:40  <Wolf01> eh
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10:52:59  <Alberth> haha :)
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10:55:57  <V453000> offsets to be shat upon later
10:55:58  <V453000> bai
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11:42:36  <V453000> how do I use this in NML please? :d
11:42:37  <V453000>
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12:06:37  <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:06:43  <argoneus> oh V453000 I wanted to ask you somethink
12:06:56  <argoneus> but it was at like 4am and I didn't want to ping you and now I forgot ffuuck
12:07:44  <Wolf01> o/
12:07:55  <argoneus> hi Wolf01 man
12:08:05  <argoneus> hey Wolf01 ever tried dytech or bob?
12:08:11  <Wolf01> no
12:08:20  <Wolf01> i usually play vanilla
12:08:39  <Wolf01> except ottd and elder scrolls games
12:08:55  <argoneus> what do you do after 30 hours
12:08:58  <argoneus> when you have everything
12:09:04  <argoneus> and biters aren't a threat either
12:09:20  <frosch123> V453000: you need a cyclic animation where the number of frames is a power of two
12:09:26  <frosch123> so 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, ... frames
12:09:39  <Wolf01> i build a rocket silo and finish the game
12:09:46  <argoneus> oh
12:09:47  <Wolf01> or i just continue to play and expand
12:11:42  <argoneus> oh I remember now
12:11:48  <argoneus> V453000: did you move to prague for the job?
12:11:57  <argoneus> or do you still live in that small city you mentioned that i forgot
12:16:15  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so, why is motion_counter in nml only 4 bits?
12:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: wasn't me...
12:16:33  <frosch123> i can see some reasoning behind dropping the lower 8 bits
12:16:39  <frosch123> but not in seeing the rest
12:16:44  <frosch123> is it just bollocks?
12:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: lowest 4 bits is the movement over one tile
12:17:13  <frosch123> well, not really
12:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, sort of
12:17:27  <frosch123> it will get out of sync in corners and when reversing
12:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:17:38  <frosch123> so, if that was the original idea, it is broken :p
12:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i always thought that, too :p
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12:19:07  <V453000> frosch123: I have 16
12:19:32  <frosch123> so, put them in a witch
12:19:38  <frosch123> *switch
12:19:41  <V453000> yeah
12:19:52  <frosch123> and use getbits(motion_count, 0, 4)
12:19:58  <frosch123> or get_bits, can't remember
12:20:13  <V453000> :d
12:20:14  <V453000> oh
12:20:48  <V453000> getbits(motion_counter,0,4){0: frame0, ...} ?
12:20:56  <frosch123> yes
12:21:00  <V453000> okay lets try :D
12:24:56  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i changed nml
12:30:17  <V453000> frosch123: can I have such animation repeat 4 times per tile?
12:39:49  <V453000> line 98 says "Passing parameters to 'spriteset_train_GEAR_01
12:39:55  <V453000>  is only possible from a spritelayout
12:40:04  <V453000> I guess that means I cant define sprites like this?
12:40:06  <V453000> did in YETI :d
12:47:55  <V453000> looks like it works XD
12:48:06  <V453000> except I need it 4 times faster
12:49:03  <V453000> do I just do getbits(motion_counter,0,6)
12:49:22  <V453000> and then ranges 0..16:frame0 ?
13:01:34  <frosch123> V453000: nml only gives you coordinates by default. if you want it finer you have to use some magic: var[0x46, 4, 0xF] instead of getbits(...)
13:02:25  <V453000> aha
13:02:36  <frosch123> but well, i am not sure whether it would actually work in ottd
13:02:41  <V453000> xd
13:02:44  <frosch123> maybe ottd only redraws the train when it actually moves
13:02:59  <frosch123> so, more than 16 frames per tile may not work
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13:06:59  <V453000> I can eventually reduce the count
13:07:09  <V453000> but with slower speed it would not be nice
13:07:30  <V453000> it is doing some silly shit regardless
13:07:34  <frosch123> well, vehicles won't move any smoother :p
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13:09:05  <V453000> each of the functions seems to operate completely differently :d
13:11:32  <V453000> hm
13:11:39  <V453000> yeah 16 looks shitty
13:11:47  <V453000> it kind of works, 32 would be enough
13:13:34  <V453000> not the best idea, I know
13:19:05  <argoneus> that's some steampunk shit right there
13:19:28  <frosch123> poor yeti needs a seat
13:21:46  <V453000> guess it wont happen argoneus
13:21:51  <V453000> 16 frames per tile are not enough
13:22:19  <frosch123> are they limited to 10km/h ?
13:22:38  <V453000> 120 for test atm
13:22:41  <V453000> hm point
13:24:23  <V453000> well increasing speed to like 250kmh actually makes the effect kind of get lost XD
13:25:27  <frosch123> 30fps :)
13:25:40  <frosch123> the wheels start to turn backwards at certain speeds :)
13:25:48  <V453000> yeah
13:25:52  <V453000> kind of weird :D
13:26:03  <V453000> I wonder if adding some motion blur would actually help
13:26:15  <V453000> guess not
13:26:20  <V453000> well maybe
13:27:07  <argoneus> how fast is this going to be?
13:27:14  <argoneus> these things will always look weird if going fast
13:27:32  <argoneus> imagine a mill spinning at 2000 rpm
13:27:34  <V453000> that is pretty retarded question if I dont even know if it is  going to be argoneus  :P
13:27:50  <argoneus> what?
13:28:12  <V453000> I already stated that it probably wont happen
13:28:17  <argoneus> why not
13:28:19  <V453000> which means I am reaching some technical limit
13:28:38  <V453000> which means speed will need to adapt to whatever is most suitable to the limit, if at all feasible
13:28:52  <argoneus> what I meant was
13:29:00  <argoneus> if you want the animation to look any cool it cant really go faster than 20-40 km/h
13:29:16  <V453000> because reasons
13:29:27  <argoneus> because it would have to spin too fast
13:29:31  <argoneus> and that'd look weird
13:31:06  <V453000> because you said so
13:31:13  <V453000> good :)
13:31:18  <argoneus> well sorry if I upset you
13:32:32  <V453000> frosch123: how about using current_speed to change motion blur stages a bit? XD
13:32:37  <V453000> moar spritez
13:33:19  <frosch123> yeah, make them glow red and spawn lighning sparks :p
13:33:58  <frosch123> you can now spawn multiple visual effects and position them individually
13:34:10  <frosch123> so you can also spawn the electric spark near the wheels
13:34:15  <V453000> fuck now you talking
13:34:20  <V453000> damn :D
13:34:38  <V453000> that didnt yet occur to me
13:34:39  <V453000> ok
13:34:43  <V453000> this MUST happen
13:35:00  <V453000> I will just let it re-render with motion blur and see wat up
13:35:17  <V453000> could just change mb in postproduction but eh
13:35:54  <V453000> I got a gtx 980 Ti, Blender rendering = easy
13:39:28  <V453000> I wonder how many sprites  will I need for a single engine :D the set might just end at 1
13:40:29  <Mazur> I bet it's going to end up with 453000 sprites.
13:40:59  <frosch123> well, widelands has about 1.5 GB of sprites (the whole game), nuts has about 3GB
13:41:18  <V453000> :>
13:42:00  <Wolf01> also don't forget people waving goodbye on the passenger cars' windows when the train start moving at stations
13:42:36  <frosch123> goodbye or farewell? :p
13:43:09  <V453000> neither
13:43:10  <Mazur> Or: √453000
13:43:12  <V453000> they wave fuck off :P
13:43:23  <argoneus> how do you wave fuck off
13:43:35  <Wolf01> "fuck off i'm going to disappear on the next station"
13:43:37  <V453000> ,,|,/
13:43:48  <argoneus> that looks painful
13:44:22  <Mazur> argoneus: just like regular, only your smile is real and from relief to see them going.
13:45:24  <argoneus> wow
13:45:46  <Wolf01> we should really keep a list of each person in the game, so we could track them and give them feelings and such, also destroying the entire game economy because we'll end up with only 100 people travelling while others are doing other things
13:46:19  <argoneus> let's call it egodist
13:46:21  <Mazur> 99.99% of people calling in sick for the day.
13:47:09  <Wolf01> train personnel strikes
13:48:29  <Wolf01> let's do a fully new game, a mix between ottd, factorio, and banished and call it real transport tycoon
13:48:53  <Wolf01> maybe based on the train fever engine
13:49:06  <argoneus> not 3d pls
13:49:13  <Wolf01> yes 3d
13:49:17  <argoneus> NO 3D
13:49:20  <Wolf01> yes
13:49:22  <argoneus> 3dpd
13:49:31  <argoneus> I mean
13:49:33  <argoneus> it can look 3d
13:49:34  <argoneus> but not 3d pls
13:49:47  <Wolf01> i want map rotation
13:49:59  <argoneus> that's lewd
13:50:08  <argoneus> you just want to see the train's butt don't you
13:50:15  <Wolf01> yeah
13:52:14  <Wolf01> also the view from the engine, like the rollercoaster tycoon 3 first person riding feature
13:53:04  <argoneus> I mean
13:53:09  <argoneus> you might as well become a train conductor
13:58:54  <argoneus> I wish I could be motivated to spend a lot of time on one thing :(
13:59:04  <argoneus> whenever I try to get into something I binge it for 60 hours and then never touch it again
13:59:08  <V453000> frosch123: can I detect current_speed = 0 and make it "cool down" over a few frames if I had the wheel heat up
13:59:22  <V453000> somehow?
13:59:52  <frosch123> nope
13:59:59  <V453000> right :)
14:00:18  <V453000> well the only place trains stop immediately is signals
14:00:24  <frosch123> you can only make it reflect speed immediately
14:00:36  <V453000> yeah, thought so
14:00:39  <frosch123> though you can distinguish accelerating and slowing down
14:00:47  <V453000> :d
14:01:06  <frosch123> so you could draw differently at 50km/h speeding up vs 50km/h slowing down
14:01:09  <V453000> probably not much point having double amount of sprites just for slowing down
14:01:20  <V453000> back in an hour or so
14:07:05  <Eddi|zuHause> dear cat. i just fed you. you can't be hungry.
14:08:26  <frosch123> ever saw a kid not wanting a dessert after lunch?
14:08:28  <argoneus> he probably just wants your attention
14:08:45  <Wolf01> or just vomited around and asking for lunch again
14:13:35  <argoneus> gurgle gurgle
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14:19:44  <drac_boy> hi
14:20:13  <Mazur> Hell
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14:20:34  <Mazur> o.
14:21:07  <drac_boy> mazur which hell? ;)
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14:21:27  <Mazur> Hell O.
14:22:07  <argoneus> hell o
14:22:08  <drac_boy> heh well I actually had been to Hell, Grand Cayman .. kinda funny tho ... a place named hell :)
14:22:26  <drac_boy> as I recall it came from the odd rock formations there
14:23:45  <drac_boy> anyway how're you two?
14:24:02  * argoneus looks around
14:24:05  * argoneus points at himself
14:24:07  <argoneus> ?
14:26:05  <argoneus> im wondering if I should get an x360 controller for pc
14:26:11  <argoneus> my logitech controller is dying
14:27:28  <frosch123> you should play ottd with a mouse
14:27:51  <frosch123> and keyboard
14:28:14  <argoneus> well not for ottd, duh
14:28:21  <argoneus> I use a steering wheel for ottd
14:28:25  <argoneus> to turn my trains better
14:29:13  <drac_boy> heh
14:29:49  <frosch123> maybe spread the myth that you can turn the map in ottd when using a steering wheel
14:30:16  <argoneus> that would be rude
14:31:34  <drac_boy> well tbh a steering wheel could work for -some- certain locomotives in msts tho? :) (yeah, clockwise for throttle and counterclockwise for brake .. or something like that .. I think thats how they functioned)
14:31:52  <drac_boy> someone who actually knows of these locomotives should know better anyhow
14:36:40  <drac_boy> but as for ottd/ttdx I would think a mouse/tablet with optional keyboard is probably the best method
14:37:07  <drac_boy> (although to try drag tracks with a pen may be interesting)
14:37:46  <argoneus> I actually want the controller to play dark souls
14:37:47  <argoneus> :(
14:37:54  <argoneus> guess I'll just get the x360 one
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14:58:26  <argoneus> oh by the way frosch123 Wolf01 friends
14:58:34  <argoneus> do you use anything for optimizing your production?
14:58:37  <argoneus> like any tools or spreadsheets
14:59:00  <Alberth> yes, issue trackers, compilers, makefiles
14:59:12  <argoneus> ;_;
14:59:29  <frosch123> i made a spreadsheet to compute how much coal efficiency modules safe and productivy modules cost for which assembling plant
14:59:40  <frosch123> and i computed how to use oil best
14:59:48  <frosch123> that kind of stuff
14:59:49  <argoneus> any idea if there are any calculators for assembler ratios?
14:59:56  <argoneus> I started working on this but it takes time
14:59:59  <argoneus> writing a script would take time too
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15:02:58  <frosch123> argoneus: well, yes, i did exactly that spreadsheet wrt. how much raw cargos are used to produce a module assuming certain modules in the assembling machines
15:03:19  <frosch123> result was that speed modules are worthless, except in beacons around oil wells
15:03:33  <frosch123> beacons are useless except around oil wells
15:03:38  <argoneus> hm
15:03:47  <argoneus> that's a whole new level of theorycrafting I couldn't be arsed to do
15:03:53  <frosch123> oil raffinery and chemistry plant should all use productivity modules
15:04:17  <argoneus> actually, what do you mean
15:04:20  <argoneus> how much raw cargos
15:04:26  <argoneus> it uses the same amount no matter the modules, no?
15:04:30  <argoneus> except maybe prod. module
15:04:31  <frosch123> the assembling machines should use a mixture of efficiency and productivity modules
15:04:45  <frosch123> with more efficiency on early cargos, and more productivity on later cargos
15:05:30  <frosch123> argoneus: assuming yuo produce all power using coal or oil, and not using the solar power cheat, you can compute how much iron, copper and coal some product needs
15:05:37  <frosch123> using efficiency modules reduces the usage of coal
15:05:51  <frosch123> using productiviy modules exchanges copper and iron for more coal
15:06:06  <argoneus> oh wow you went that far
15:06:24  <argoneus> is there a ratio coal:kW ?
15:06:29  <argoneus> assuming steam engines
15:06:30  <frosch123> producing a module needs like 500 raw copper
15:06:50  <frosch123> using productivity modueles on advanced circuits saves you like 5% of that copper, while only costing slightly more coal
15:07:31  <frosch123> using producivity modules on something like copper wires requires a lot more coal
15:07:49  <argoneus> i actually tried to avoid modules a lot, except efficiency
15:07:56  <argoneus> only used efficiency in most things and speed 3 in furnaces
15:07:57  <frosch123> argoneus: yes, there is a fixed ratio for coal->kw and solid fuel -> kw
15:08:15  <frosch123> light oil is the best to use for solid fuel
15:08:40  <frosch123> the advanced rafinerery processing is better than the basic ones, even when going for fuel instead of gas
15:08:48  <argoneus> so you crack heavy to light and make solid fuel from that?
15:08:53  <frosch123> argoneus: speed is really worthless
15:09:02  <frosch123> it's better to build more assembling plants
15:09:13  <argoneus> well
15:09:20  <argoneus> with furnaces the belts limit you
15:09:21  <frosch123> speed modules trade space for coal
15:09:29  <argoneus> and if you didn't plan well enough, you can't split and make another line
15:09:35  <frosch123> it's way better to build more funcaces than to waste coal
15:09:36  <argoneus> and then speed modules are nice
15:11:52  <frosch123> argoneus: heavy -> light -> solid fuel is better than heavy -> solid fuel, even considering the energy needed for the cacking
15:12:06  <argoneus> just... how many calculations did you do?
15:12:10  <argoneus> or do you have a script
15:12:17  <frosch123> no, just a spreadsheet
15:12:36  <argoneus> I couldn't figure out how to make my spreadsheet calculate these things
15:12:44  <argoneus> ;_;
15:13:51  <frosch123> <- that's the oil usage computation
15:14:30  <frosch123> <- that's the modules production computation
15:14:43  <frosch123> they are not commented, so, good luck figureing them out :p
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15:15:20  <argoneus> hm
15:15:35  * andythenorth ponders
15:15:41  <argoneus> o/ andythenorth
15:16:22  <argoneus> yeah frosch123
15:16:25  <argoneus> these spreadsheets....
15:16:27  <argoneus> seems cool :D
15:18:59  <andythenorth> when BB picks a tertiary cargo
15:19:01  <andythenorth> it’s fun
15:19:59  <andythenorth> I have 8 chains to build to provide the input cargos for a ‘vehicles’ cargo goal
15:20:06  <argoneus> BB?
15:20:15  <andythenorth> Busy Bee
15:20:18  <argoneus> oh
15:23:21  <drac_boy> mm what os/cpu factorio need anyway?
15:23:58  <frosch123> it needs a pc with 3d graphics acceleration
15:24:28  <frosch123> the linux build works with the shared libraries that come with debian jessie
15:24:33  <frosch123> it did not work with wheezy
15:26:15  <argoneus> yeah
15:26:18  <argoneus> it needs glibc 2.15
15:26:20  <argoneus> but wheezy has 2.13
15:32:18  <drac_boy> hmm so anything agp? seeing this topic for the second time now .. I may have to actually think about trying factorio perhaps .. we'll see tho :)
15:33:52  <frosch123> drac_boy: there is a demo
15:33:54  <frosch123> just try it
15:56:40  <Eddi|zuHause> does agp still exist?
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16:15:17  <peter1138> i imagine there's still some people running kit with it, so yes, it exists.
16:16:00  <frosch123> kit? the car?
16:17:37  <drac_boy> have to go for lunch sorry
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16:20:43  <peter1138> kit. equipment.
16:22:27  <argoneus> you can always buy the game and refund it if it doesn't work
16:22:31  <argoneus> oh he's gone
16:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the car is called kitt
16:26:33  <argoneus> nothing personnel, kitt
16:27:01  <Taede> personal, not personell
16:27:23  <argoneus> pssh...
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17:25:17  <Wolf01> bye
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20:54:48  <Keshi> heya, good evening
20:54:55  <Alberth> o/
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21:36:27  <argoneus> can someone explain me something
21:36:35  <argoneus> there are mods which have specific licenses
21:36:48  <argoneus> such as "you can't redistribute it, you have to link people to my website" and stuff like that
21:37:04  <argoneus> and then such mods aren't on bananas
21:37:14  <argoneus> and it's a pain to get them in general because their website might die, etc
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21:37:23  <argoneus> can't you make it so that every mod that people make has to have X license?
21:37:50  <argoneus> I mean, probably not, it's their mod, but yeah
21:38:33  <andythenorth> no
21:38:38  <andythenorth> how would that be enforced?
21:39:03  <argoneus> yeah I realized after the fact that not every mod has to be on banans
21:39:05  <argoneus> bananas**
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