Log for #openttd on 30th December 2015:
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02:37:18  <Keridos> what does affect the acceleration of trains, tractive effort or power?
02:59:55  * debdog is not an expert but isn't the one conditional to the other? well, with the force transmission in between
03:04:01  <debdog> power as in energy or as in energy/time
03:04:03  <debdog> ?
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03:46:26  <Keridos> the horse power debdog
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04:48:12  <Flygon> Keridos: It's... 'simple'
04:48:33  <Flygon> Tractive effort is the raw accleeration effortavilable
04:48:56  <Flygon> effort available*
04:49:08  <Flygon> Top speed is... erm, top speed
04:49:27  <Flygon> Power is what controls if you can reach the top speed with a heavy enough load
04:49:31  <Flygon> So if you lack enough power
04:49:37  <Flygon> You can't hit the top speed for a load you have
04:49:41  <Flygon> In addition, at higher speeds
04:49:46  <Flygon> More power lets you accelerate easier
04:50:03  <Flygon> Tractive effort has the most effect at lower speeds
04:50:15  <Flygon> Like, if you have a freight only line
04:50:35  <Flygon> You might just run 60-80km/h stuff with a single Steam Locomotive for each 6-12 tile long freight
04:50:45  <Flygon> With very high TE, and mid-high HP, but low top speed
04:50:48  <Flygon> To save on money
04:51:06  <Flygon> Because that helps get you off the ground from a stop
04:51:11  <Flygon> Should handle hills
04:51:22  <Flygon> And speed isn't a factor with 2CC set freight wagons anyway :U
04:51:30  <Flygon> Anyway, I'll let other more competent people field this
04:51:37  <Flygon> But, tl;dr
04:51:47  <Flygon> Tractive Effort = Acceletion Effort from Low Speeds
04:52:05  <Flygon> Power = Helps you reach the vehicle's top speed, can affect acceleration closer to the top speed.
04:53:10  <sim-al2> Power is the energy applied per time, opposing energy wasted in drag and overcoming hills
04:54:21  <sim-al2> Going faster takes more and more power, and results in more drag
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05:08:19  <Flygon> sim: Yeah
05:08:27  <Flygon> Was just trying to explain it within gameplay terms
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10:29:24  <Wolf01> o/
10:29:54  <__ln__> precisely on time
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10:30:11  <Wolf01> like a wizard
10:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe 11:38 would have been funnier :p
10:32:25  <Wolf01> usually when i look at the clock i see 11:38 or 13:37 or 22:22
10:33:35  <Zuu> I just made an elevator screenshot and accidently got 222,000 bucks:   (testing with max floorrange set to 3)
10:34:02  <Zuu> I probably will re-do the grapihcs so the elevator car can be visible, but for now made a top and a bottom piece that fit with the current graphics to work on the code part of editing and simulating elevators.
10:34:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i once paid 33,33€ at the store
10:35:00  <__ln__> where's the emergency stairway?
10:35:27  <Zuu> __ln__: Not implemented yet. On the other hand fire is neither implemented. :-)
10:36:28  <Zuu> And there is a feature(?) that you can remove rooms below other rooms. But thanksfully there are no agents yet that can get stuck in the sky. :-)
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10:47:24  <Wolf01> mmmh, stupid rectangles
10:47:36  <Alberth> use circles instead?
10:49:20  <Wolf01> i set the position of the object with absolute coordinates, the object has the origin in another point instead of the top-left corner, the bounding box should be moved again in place because the rectangle starts drawing from top-left corner while circles start from the origin -.-
10:50:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get what can be so complicated there
10:50:38  <Wolf01> all the additions and subtractions to do
10:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> just calculate (corner-origin)
10:51:10  <Wolf01> i always mistake the signs
10:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> always do one step at a time
10:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause> don't "simplify" the formulas
10:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: always do (end-beginning)
10:52:43  <Wolf01> i'll extend Rectangle to give the origin and the size instead of top-left and size, so i won't bother about it anymore
10:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a transformation you should do in a constructor
10:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or a factory method
10:54:37  <Wolf01> too bad i have to change the signature because overloading won't work with same number or type of parameters
10:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> CreateRectangleFromOrigin(...)
10:55:32  <Wolf01> i would like to use the constructor
10:56:54  <Wolf01> just to keep coherence
10:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd suggest you take a step back and revisit some design decisions
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11:10:52  <Alberth> compute bounding box from the rectangle object?
11:11:41  <Wolf01> the bb is the Rectangle object
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11:13:34  <Wolf01> o/
11:13:37  <andythenorth> “It’s turtles all the way down"
11:13:39  <andythenorth> or something
11:14:31  <andythenorth> if you have a stack of co-ordinates in *signed* x,y pairs, then you can stick them in an array / list and just walk the list
11:14:47  <andythenorth> [(-1, 0), (2, 10), (-7, -14)] etc
11:14:55  <andythenorth> and they’ll resolve cleanly
11:15:25  <andythenorth> any given x,y point in any shape in your hierarchy is just part of a stack
11:15:29  <Wolf01> i know, that is how the framework's bounding box work, but i need to calculate them first
11:16:11  <andythenorth> is the problem finding the first pair (offsets for a point in the shape, from loc)?
11:16:20  <Wolf01> i'm looking to use vectors instead of rectangles
11:17:04  <Wolf01> so i can easily rotate the bounding box
11:17:42  <andythenorth> potato / potato imho :)
11:17:57  <andythenorth> rectangle + trig = same result
11:18:18  * andythenorth ponders making an eddi-bot
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11:18:43  <eddi-bot> “probably your architecture is wrong"
11:18:57  <eddi-bot> “assemble a tree and use a recursive function”
11:18:59  <eddi-bot> :)
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11:19:32  * andythenorth misses games programming
11:19:46  <Wolf01> the bounding box can only be created with a list of vectors, so i'm stuck with vectors (which i extracted from the rectangle)
11:20:19  <Alberth> o/
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11:21:04  <andythenorth> vector is a pair of: distance, angle?
11:21:15  <Wolf01> yes, or just the coordinates of the point
11:21:40  <Wolf01> which automatically converts to distance and angle relative to the origin
11:22:06  * andythenorth wonders if a paste would help
11:22:32  <andythenorth> is it isolated code, or is there a lot of boilerplate and such to understand?
11:23:18  <Wolf01> i'm just using the framework functions, the only code i have right now is "Rectangle r = new Rectangle((int)_position.X, (int)_position.Y, (int)_size.X, (int)_size.Y);"
11:23:24  <Wolf01> which misses the offset
11:23:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i still think your problem is really trivial...
11:24:55  <Wolf01> eddi, i know at least 4 different ways of doing this thing, but each one has its downsides and i need
11:25:17  <Wolf01> *because i need to transform it to a different one in different places
11:25:24  <Eddi|zuHause> rule #1 applies: if your solution is not clean and elegant, it's probably wrong
11:25:33  * Wolf01 -> frozen fingers
11:25:47  <andythenorth> rule #2: rule #1 often can’t be applied
11:26:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so just implement a bunch of get/set functions that handle the different transformations
11:26:29  <Wolf01> that's what i'm doing
11:26:34  <andythenorth> in > 15 years of being around software, rule #1 always fails somewhere around the 80% point :P
11:26:44  <andythenorth> usable software entails lots of inelegance
11:26:55  <Alberth> reality is very buggy :p
11:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if the set/get functions are more than 3 LOC, they're probably wrong
11:27:28  <Rubidium> andythenorth: isn't rule #1 more like "third time is a charm"?
11:27:35  <Alberth> or perhaps, our understanding of reality is
11:27:41  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I could +1 to that
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11:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: shouldn't that be rule #3 instead?
11:29:22  <Wolf01> the main problem is that i'm uncertain on how to write this thing, when to compute things, when to cache them, how many variables do i need
11:29:38  <andythenorth> don’t cache them
11:29:52  <andythenorth> your game’s not multiplayer?
11:30:03  <Wolf01> yes, it will be multiplayer
11:30:08  <andythenorth> oh
11:30:09  <andythenorth> ok :)
11:30:27  <Wolf01> and i'll expect headaches with lag hiding
11:30:46  <andythenorth> I would deal with the caching later
11:30:55  <andythenorth> do the minimum to make it work
11:31:18  <andythenorth> you need an architecture teddy bear
11:31:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: all those things are implementation details, not design decisions
11:31:39  <andythenorth> architecture teddy bear says: “don’t worry about the best implementation, just write something, it’s only a game"
11:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the object should behave the same, no matter whether the set/get function read caches or calculate on the spot
11:32:17  <andythenorth> I’ve made / seen made games with multi-million play counts, made in the most basic way by people who have no comp sci. training at all :)
11:32:52  <andythenorth> Wolf01: how many rectangles do you have? o_O
11:33:07  <andythenorth> or rather, how many sizes of rectangle?
11:33:54  <Wolf01> infinite, i couldn't know the size of the object, i could calculate it on game loading, but the object will keep the same size for the entire game
11:34:15  <Wolf01> but it can rotate with 90° steps
11:34:33  <Wolf01> so the bounding box need to change accordingly
11:35:47  * andythenorth wondered if it could be hard-coded, come back to it later
11:35:59  <andythenorth> probably not
11:36:30  <Wolf01> so, restarting from scratch, i have a position of the origin and the offset, then i have a bounding box and a sprite which might not be exactly of the same size of the bounding box
11:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: here's what i would do: 1) in the constructor, "normalize" the rectangle to (corner+size), 2) set/get functions do the calculations, no caching
11:37:01  <andythenorth> origin for this object, or global origin? o_O
11:37:10  <Wolf01> object's
11:37:13  <andythenorth> ok
11:37:54  <andythenorth> so what determines the size of the bb, if not the sprite size?
11:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure what purpose the "origin" has
11:37:56  <Wolf01> also i have a more system wide global origin, because the map has a offset since it's not screen-aligned
11:38:12  <andythenorth> sounds standard
11:38:43  <andythenorth> you’re using the origin as the center of rotation?
11:39:23  <Wolf01> the origin of the object is needed to center things on the object, like the sprite (which need to be rotated in the center instead of the top-left corner), the point of the gun which is centered on one side of the sprite
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11:40:01  <andythenorth> usually the origin would also be the location point of the object in the parent co-ordinate space
11:40:14  <Wolf01> yes
11:40:15  <andythenorth> and the centre of rotation
11:40:28  <andythenorth> ok
11:40:39  <andythenorth> so what gives you the bb size?
11:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so origin is a random point within (or maybe outside) the rectangle?
11:40:47  <Wolf01> when i spawn new tanks, i give the tile, and the tank must spawn in the middle of that tile
11:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> or always the center?
11:41:39  <Wolf01> the origin should always be the center, the only things with doesn't have it at the center are the GUI elements
11:41:45  <Wolf01> *which
11:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> why are gui elements different?
11:42:55  <Wolf01> because they are drawn on screen and not on the playground
11:44:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so, gui elements should be completely different objects, or you should eliminate this difference
11:44:44  <Wolf01> also i'll need a viewport, because now the playground is little, but it might be a lot bigger
11:45:11  <Wolf01> i would keep them different
11:45:22  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, calculating the center from the corner and size is just center = corner+size/2, and the other way around is corner=center-size/2
11:45:41  <andythenorth> in principle, moving the origin is no big deal, at least when I was writing flash games, it’s just a mutable property
11:47:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (like i said: trivial)
11:48:22  <Eddi|zuHause> (interestingly, "size" can also be a negative number and this still works)
11:50:17  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> so what gives you the bb size? <- usually it is slightly bigger than the sprite up to the tile size, if i'll need precise collision checking i'll add a mask
11:51:07  <andythenorth> stepping back, do you actually need to draw this rect, or is it for the collision detection calculation?
11:51:21  <Wolf01> at the moment it's used for both
11:51:57  <Wolf01> but i'll keep it only for debug as i'll switch to the internal bounding box system which uses vectors
11:52:14  <Wolf01> (the list of coordinates)
11:52:33  <Wolf01> i could even have an octagonal bounding box
11:53:04  <planetmaker> o/
11:53:05  <Wolf01> but i prefer to use rectangles :P
11:53:09  <Wolf01> o/
11:53:13  <Alberth> o/
11:53:30  <__ln__> @seen DorpsGek
11:53:30  <DorpsGek> __ln__: I have not seen DorpsGek.
11:54:25  <andythenorth> you know that for 90º rotation of rectangles, you can just switch x, y for points?
11:54:42  <andythenorth> it only works for limited case of rects, not a general solution
11:55:02  <Wolf01> i could just multiply the movement vector normalized
11:55:05  <__ln__> you probably mean °, not º
11:55:21  <andythenorth> yeah, that again
11:56:04  <andythenorth> ok, so your rect is specified as origin, size pairs
11:56:20  <andythenorth> so you likely want to calculate all the corners and transform them?
11:56:25  * andythenorth was reading up
11:56:59  <Wolf01> yes, sort of
11:57:27  <Wolf01> i don't know if it's the right way, but that was my idea
11:57:53  <andythenorth> it’s how I would do it
11:58:08  <andythenorth> is there a general shape / lining drawing method?
11:58:18  <andythenorth> the rect looks like a specialised convenience method
11:58:40  <andythenorth> usually, something like polygon(points)
11:58:57  <Wolf01> i have a boilerplate to draw lines and geometric figures, as i can only draw sprites
11:59:37  <Wolf01> and each line is made up from 1px*1px sprite stretched
11:59:56  <andythenorth> ha ha
12:00:05  <andythenorth> hax :D
12:00:06  <Wolf01>
12:00:26  <Wolf01> nice
12:00:34  <Wolf01> a week ago it was there
12:00:52  <Wolf01> oh he changed the uri
12:00:53  <Wolf01>
12:04:20  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I leave you to it :)  But have you drawn it out? I always use paper and pencil for solving geometry / trig problems in games.
12:04:41  <Wolf01> i have a school book for that
12:08:11  <Wolf01> it is really big:
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12:46:01  <Wolf01> nice, i removed the drawing offsets and it is drawn in the opposite corner XD
12:59:01  <Wolf01> i think that the problem is due to the drawing coordinates which are absolute, while everything other is relative to the object, so i'm trying to do stupid fixes instead of getting the sprite drawing correctly
13:02:06  <Wolf01> i might get rid of this by using more sprite batches
13:02:35  <Wolf01> and then rendering the batch with offset instead of inserting in the batch with offset
13:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you need to think more and program less
13:09:29  <Alberth> +1
13:09:33  <Alberth> bbl
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13:25:38  <andythenorth> local-to-global stuff is always a bit wtf
13:26:14  <andythenorth> I would define all the shapes separate from their drawing
13:26:25  <andythenorth> it’s a bit boilerplate heavy, but easier to work with
13:27:23  <Wolf01> i removed all the global offset layer now, i'll move the playground with a viewport as soon as i understand how to draw things outside of it
13:27:23  <andythenorth> and I would define all the points as polygon vertices, relative to the origin of the current shape
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15:08:28  <Keridos> when doing a fast passenger route with maglevs, do i really need 2 rails in each direction?
15:08:38  <Keridos> my maglevs konstantly break down, even if renewed
15:23:24  <Wolf01> they don't have enough reliability
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15:25:26  <Keridos> hm i see that I have only access to two maglevs
15:25:42  <Keridos> there is pretty much no point in them this way
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15:33:33  <planetmaker> Keridos, amount of tracks per direction depends very much on how much usage those track see
15:34:07  <planetmaker> And whether maglev is worth the upgrade or not ... depends on available trains. And whether the speed and possibly reliability is worth the upgrade
15:34:27  <planetmaker> without any NewGRFs you'll finally end up with 4 different maglev engines
15:34:53  <planetmaker> and the train engines will eventually become unavailable, thus it will become a necessity to upgrade to maglev eventually
15:41:36  <Keridos> planetmaker: I have 2cc trains and vactubes
15:41:46  <Keridos> saw that I can construct magtubes with 99% reliability
15:42:02  <Keridos> and they drive at 3840 km/h
15:54:02  <Alberth> quite unbalanced thus :)
15:58:32  <peter1138> stabilisers
16:00:14  <Keridos> stabilisers?
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16:00:56  <Zuu> Hello
16:01:57  <andythenorth> o/
16:02:18  <Wolf01> o/
16:03:05  <Alberth> I wonder if you could correct such things automagically :p
16:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... so i docked on my satellite with a klaw, but i can't seem to transfer fuel...
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16:16:09  <Keridos> Eddi|zuHause: is that openttd or space engineers? :p
16:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called KSP :p
16:16:35  <Keridos> ah
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16:20:07  <Passion_Fruit> I'll cry
16:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> go ahead then.
16:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> let it all out.
16:20:33  <Passion_Fruit> Nope
16:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> you'll feel better afterwards
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16:21:34  <Wolf01> poor thing
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17:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> ah... i figured it out... it's not "alt+click" like the internet suggests, but "right shift+click"
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17:48:15  <Wolf01> bye
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18:45:47  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27484 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2015-12-30 19:45:36 +0100 )
18:45:48  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
18:45:49  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: croatian: 4 changes by UnderwaterHesus
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: english (us): 1 change by Supercheese
18:45:51  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: serbian: 21 changes by stravagante
18:45:52  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
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22:46:37  <Keridos> are there any GRFs that add stuff beyond year 2100 ?
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22:57:47  <Eddi|zuHause> probably...
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22:58:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the downside is, that if you add e.g. trains beyond 2100, then all planes, ships and road vehicles will probably disappear
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23:39:21  <Keridos> Eddi|zuHause: is that an openttd limitation?
23:39:46  <Keridos> mh how can i set a train to only deliver a certain quantity?
23:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Keridos: it's not really a limitation. it's a side effect
23:40:11  <Keridos> only 256 id?
23:40:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Keridos: openttd looks at when the last vehicle is introduced, and freezes vehicle aging a short time after that, so all vehicles which are available at that time of freezing will stay available
23:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> if you move the point of freezing by adding more vehicles, more of the earlier vehicles will time out
23:41:17  <Keridos> ah, can I turn that off somehow?
23:41:24  <Keridos> imo that should be a config option
23:41:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can only make sure you load vehicle NewGRFs for each type
23:42:34  <Keridos> ah ok, thanks for the info
23:43:03  <Keridos> mmmh Still thinking about a good delivering option for engineering supplies for FIRS
23:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no option to unload only a part of the cargo
23:43:44  <Keridos> since the industries take an unlimited amount of them apparently
23:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you could try cargodist, but it's known to work poorly with supplies
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23:44:11  <Keridos> oh i just turned that off
23:44:26  <Keridos> because at least in asymmetric config it breaks it totally
23:44:45  <Keridos> only 6 stations of my 10 were actually "allowed" to receive them
23:44:58  <Keridos> and 2 were at 600-900 crates per month
23:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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23:45:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the way it handles destinations is not optimized for "few sources many destinations"
23:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you could try intermediate stations
23:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so the number of "next hops" is low at each station
23:48:18  <Keridos> yeah still thinking about how I can distribute it optimally
23:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> also you can try to have two separate pickup stations
23:48:45  <Keridos> an option to load/unload only a specific amount of cargo would be amazing

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