Log for #openttd on 31st January 2016:
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10:04:48  <Wolf01> moin
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10:15:54  <V453000> hy
10:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause> hott
10:33:50  <Alberth> hi hi
10:43:05  <Terkhen> Hello
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12:01:31  <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:07:46  <frosch123> oh, my... i was looking for a forum post i thought i made last year
12:07:56  <frosch123> turned out it was an irc conversation in 2012
12:16:03  <Alberth> how time flies when having fun?
12:24:26  <argoneus> but does time have wings
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12:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe time floats?
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13:08:46  <argoneus> why not an int
13:28:48  <Alberth> it wouldn't float
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13:34:08  <argoneus> it would div though
13:37:37  <andythenorth> o/
13:38:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: i have been exploring the food chain
13:38:54  <frosch123> i think flour mill and food processing plant would benefit, if they gave a bonus to all input cargos delivered
13:39:06  <Mazur> I'm too integer to join in the cheap puns.
13:39:20  <frosch123> to give a reason to transport fruit to different places
13:40:07  <frosch123> currently there are only role-play reasons to produce alcohol at all
13:40:08  <Mazur> Annie Whey, PC's up, installed and running.
13:40:30  <frosch123> based on the game mechanics alone, you could just as well only produce food
13:40:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: they don’t combine currently?
13:40:53  * andythenorth could change that
13:41:05  <frosch123> the text only says man supplies
13:41:09  <andythenorth> ah
13:41:10  <frosch123> i did not check the code :p
13:41:10  <andythenorth> hmm
13:41:24  <andythenorth> certainly food processor needs something
13:41:30  <andythenorth> it doesn’t even have man. supplies
13:42:02  <andythenorth> I only play with GS, so I am not a good judge of gameplay without a GS :)
13:42:13  <andythenorth> I find FIRS ‘big’ economies totally overwhelming without GS
13:43:13  <frosch123> i am only playing iahc :p i never played full firs beyond a few minutes
13:43:35  <andythenorth> 30 cargos is too much
13:45:08  <frosch123> currently i have the flowchart constantly open on the second screen :p
13:45:42  <andythenorth> much better with Busy Bee :P
13:45:50  <andythenorth> just look at the cargo, find nearest source on the map
13:46:11  <andythenorth> we need more GS choices :)
13:46:24  <frosch123> i just started in the top-left of the flow chart :p
13:48:17  <andythenorth> maybe a GS could do same :P
14:33:16  <Wolf01> I found my new love... Windward
14:34:13  <Wolf01> I was developing a game like that (in 2D) about 10 years ago... never did more than the galeon movement
14:35:12  <argoneus> Wolf01: >no first person view
14:35:13  <argoneus> dropped
14:35:30  <argoneus> wow
14:35:31  <Wolf01> it's moddable
14:35:33  <argoneus> all those negative reviews
14:35:36  <argoneus> seems like the devs fucked up big time
14:38:51  <debdog> uh, it's like pirates. was looking for such a thing for years
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15:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i got windward for cheap, but i'm not sure it's my type of game
15:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't write anything negative about the game, though... seems fine
15:41:49  <Wolf01> I'm looking on how to mod it to show the resources on the screen instead of the inventory only... not that I don't have enough wood for repairs at any time, but just to be sure to keep everything under control
15:43:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i was driving around running errands and trading, but i don't quite see what the long term aim is
15:44:07  <Eddi|zuHause> pirates kinda get nasty outside your own starting territory
15:44:10  <Wolf01> conquest the whole map
15:44:29  <Wolf01> I just finished to purge pirates from the second area
15:45:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think it's weird that the edibles tank car can transport food, but not alcohol
15:46:23  <frosch123> hmm, oh wait... it can
15:46:45  <frosch123> i assume the edibles tank car only becomes available later
15:46:55  <frosch123> so when i started the alcohol route it wasn't available
15:47:04  <V453000> xd
15:47:11  <V453000> universal wagon ftw
15:47:34  <frosch123> universal wagon always looked stupid to me
15:47:35  <frosch123> never used it
15:47:58  <V453000> well functionally since you can be sure that you can load any cargo at any point of the game ... :)
15:47:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the game needs an option to make multiple vehicles available simultaneously
15:48:32  <frosch123> i think we have a spec for that
15:49:26  <V453000> really?
15:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> we discussed a few ways to do it, but i'm not sure we ever settled on one thing
15:49:59  <frosch123> it's along of: modify the randomisation so that it does not alter the introduction order
15:50:06  <andythenorth> edibles tank car could be made available earlier
15:50:16  <andythenorth> early in game, you just use open cars for all things
15:50:21  <V453000> I am pretty sure I already requested such spec multiple times
15:50:29  <frosch123> basically, sort all wagons by newgrf intro date, then add randomness preserving order, and assigning the same randomness to same intro dates
15:51:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so you just need a "scramble" function that takes an intro date, and deterministically adds a random value to it
15:51:41  <frosch123> V453000: usually the realism fools ruined all motivation to even start coding
15:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> so the same number put into it will always be the same number coming out, but which number is coming out is random
15:52:05  <V453000> not surprising :D
15:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i also was looking for a way to combine multiple vehicles into one prototype offer
15:52:51  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, a monotone transformation, that deviates from the identify only in some limited interval
15:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it doesn't even need to be monotone
15:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> just same value stays together as a group
15:53:40  <frosch123> if it shall preserve order, it needs to be
15:54:33  <frosch123> but yes, using the same info for preview could work
15:55:27  <frosch123> yes, my stockyard station is called "horse market" \o/
15:56:13  <Eddi|zuHause> industry station names need a range of random names, not just one single one
15:57:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the "witty" FIRS names get boring after the fifth time
15:57:29  <frosch123> huh? did you play with them? :p
15:57:39  <Eddi|zuHause> no :p
15:58:36  <andythenorth> I just accept them as what they are
15:58:45  <andythenorth> a list would be better than a single value mind you
15:58:59  <frosch123> yes, but is a boring thing to add
15:59:05  <andythenorth> yes
15:59:50  <andythenorth> my €0.02 on vehicle introduction, I made it a non-problem by designing set differently
16:00:00  <andythenorth> I would rather see tech levels, and an API for GS :P
16:00:34  <andythenorth>  something with gameplay value
16:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound like something anybody would implement
16:01:26  <andythenorth> that’s what we said about GS, for years
16:01:40  <andythenorth> meanwhile, new roads sounds just like something someone would implement
16:08:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: oh, and you need to convince danmack to draw graphics for fruit/maize
16:09:12  <frosch123> also, why can hopper cars not transport maize?
16:10:34  <andythenorth> because I am awkward
16:10:36  <andythenorth> no other reason
16:10:47  <andythenorth> it’s not a realism thing
16:13:32  <frosch123> comparing iron horse with nuts is weird :)
16:13:48  <frosch123> iron horse has more interesting wagons, nuts has more interesting cargo graphics
16:23:49  <frosch123> hmm, we need to fix drawing of articulated vehicles at the cursor :p
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16:35:53  <andythenorth> V should load my wagons :P
16:35:56  <andythenorth> I didn’t get to that yet
16:36:00  <andythenorth> too many sets
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16:48:24  <V453000> haha :D
16:48:35  <V453000> yeah I am hoping to make nicer wagons with my next train set
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16:53:25  <V453000> no generations, focus no few but nice things
16:53:45  <V453000> *no/on
16:59:32  <frosch123> hmm, "reefer car", yet another american name :p
17:03:47  <Wolf01> going out... third time this week
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17:06:27  <Wolf01> bye
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17:08:23  <frosch123> bah, iron horse fooled me :p
17:08:35  <frosch123> i forgot to enable wagon removal
17:09:35  <andythenorth> all the names are american
17:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if there only were a way to translate a set.
17:09:36  <andythenorth> :)
17:09:40  <andythenorth> if only
17:10:35  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i selected traditional english
17:11:04  <andythenorth> it’s wide open for someone to ask me to do en-uk and en-us :P
17:11:13  <andythenorth> I don’t like the twee english uk terms :P
17:18:24  <frosch123> do i now electrify my tracks? the first electric engine is so op
17:25:36  <V453000> road crossings for maglev done :>
17:25:57  <V453000> rendering time
17:25:59  <V453000> see you in a year XD
17:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i generally end up with around 50% electrified
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18:39:20  <andythenorth> frosch123: until 1990s or so, electric is a gameplay-neutral choice imho
18:39:43  <andythenorth> for this roster anyway
18:41:02  <frosch123> the stats in iron horse show the same weirdness as most non-nuts sets
18:41:11  <frosch123> there are fast engines and engines with high te
18:41:20  <frosch123> but for some reason the high te have very little power
18:41:37  <frosch123> which makes the fast engines perform better than the high te in almost all cases
18:43:39  <andythenorth> which ones?
18:44:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: wagon speed limits disabled? o_O
18:44:49  * andythenorth is curious
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18:47:05  <frosch123> the very first 4-4-0 and 0-6-0
18:47:14  <frosch123> i don't think there is any usecase for the 0-6-0
18:47:34  <andythenorth> plausible
18:47:41  <andythenorth> given the wagon speed limits are 65mph at that time
18:48:10  <frosch123> while the 4-4-2 is introduced like 5 years after the 0-10-0 it is way better
18:48:24  <frosch123> ok, i played without wagon speed limits
18:48:31  <andythenorth> the 0-10-0 has only one purpose, going over mountains with freight
18:48:34  <andythenorth> otherwise it’s junk
18:48:44  <andythenorth> it nearly got removed, but eh
18:49:00  <andythenorth> I’ve tried making the perfectly minimal set with no rough edges, and it’s boring
18:49:37  <frosch123> i think, if an engine is slower, it should at least have more power :p
18:50:12  <andythenorth> I could increase it
18:50:32  <andythenorth> it’s already unrealistic for HP, steam engines aren’t really measured in HP
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18:51:15  <andythenorth> hmm
18:51:50  <andythenorth> so the idea is for any given time, 1 freight engine, 1 pax / fast freight engine, 1 local engine, and 1 oddball
18:52:09  <andythenorth> in later game the freight engines have higher TE *and* higher power
18:52:18  <andythenorth> but in early game, the pax engines are higher powered than freight
18:52:23  <andythenorth> this is what you’re noticing as odd?
18:54:03  <frosch123> yes, i am only at 1925
18:57:43  <Eddi|zuHause> well, one would imagine that an engine of the same size will have the same power at the same time, no matter which transmission ratio is used
18:58:28  <andythenorth> probably
18:58:46  <andythenorth> I am not so worried about that, more interested in there being obvious choices
18:59:01  <andythenorth> but I never considered the case without wagon speed limits :P
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19:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> well, no wagonspeedlimits will always render half the engines useless
19:03:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no way around that
19:06:13  <andythenorth> that is a useful point
19:06:34  <andythenorth> ‘freight engine’ only makes sense if you have wagon speed limits
19:06:48  <andythenorth> or does it? o_O
19:07:25  <frosch123> huh? no
19:07:31  <frosch123> it is the other way around
19:07:42  <frosch123> wagon speed limits enabled makes the engines useless
19:07:58  <frosch123> the point of freight engines is that they acutally reach their speed limit with cargo
19:08:11  <frosch123> if you enable wagon speed limits then also non-freight engines reach that limited speed
19:09:07  <andythenorth> but why would you pick a slower engine?
19:09:13  <frosch123> freight engines should reach a slower speed in less time
19:09:17  <andythenorth> you’d always pick the fastest engine, given unlimited wagons
19:09:20  <andythenorth> you / me /s
19:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i think in CETS the balance point was supposed to be the running cost. the faster engine will cost more by something like maxspeed^2
19:09:32  <andythenorth> ah :)
19:09:39  <andythenorth> well running cost is ~irrelevant
19:09:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, i pick the engine that reaches the fastest actual speed, which is lower than the max speed
19:10:12  <frosch123> in my games trains usually take 20 tiles to reach max speed, or sometimes even only on downhill
19:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> well, running cost by actual speed might be possible, but rather pointless for the amount of work
19:10:27  <andythenorth> add another engine? o_O
19:10:34  <frosch123> freight engines reach their max speed faster, non-freight engines don't reach their speed limit at all or only downhill
19:11:35  * andythenorth should test some on hills
19:11:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: the point is, when i use the 4-4-2 for freight, it does not reach its max speed, but it is still faster than the freight engines
19:12:04  <andythenorth> what freight weight multiplier is set?
19:12:11  <frosch123> i was said to use 1
19:12:13  * andythenorth just trying to understand all the possible variables
19:12:14  <frosch123> *told
19:12:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: prepared to use the game date cheat to look at the later roster? o_O
19:12:57  <andythenorth> you might have convinced me that the early roster is borked
19:13:50  <frosch123> i don't think that works :p i only notice such things during gameplay
19:13:56  <frosch123> not when fastforwarding :)
19:14:31  <andythenorth> there are two engines around 1935 which _should_ be more obviously balanced pax / freight
19:17:05  <andythenorth> yeah, without wagon speed limits, you’d always choose the first 2 pax engines over first 2 freight, every time
19:17:55  <frosch123> 2-8-2 and 4-8-0 look good
19:18:37  <frosch123> "raven" still appears strong compared to everything else, but maybe that is ok since it requires electrified rails only for itself
19:19:27  <andythenorth> yup
19:19:34  <andythenorth> it’s a no-op for gameplay :P
19:19:44  <andythenorth> you get a better engine, but have to electrify everything
19:20:18  <andythenorth> hmm
19:21:16  <andythenorth> I ran a test, going straight up a mountain, the 0-6-0 is at 16mph with 233t consist, the 4-4-0 is on it’s knees at 1mph with 236t consist
19:21:35  <andythenorth> but for the first 8 tiles of slope they were level
19:22:39  <frosch123> well, i never have more than 2 slopes along one train :p
19:23:27  <frosch123> try testing them on flat land
19:24:00  <frosch123> imho the freight engine should be ahead of the pax engine until it is capped at max speed
19:24:53  <andythenorth> so the point you illustrate is that there’s no reason not to have high HP on the freight engine
19:25:07  <andythenorth> nobody will choose it for pax, so there still remains ‘one obvious choice’
19:25:14  <andythenorth> for any route / consist
19:25:24  <andythenorth> so I should change that
19:26:49  <frosch123> compareing the 0-6-0 with the 4-4-0
19:26:56  <frosch123> the 0-6-0 has a head-start
19:27:10  <frosch123> but is overtaken at 70 km/h
19:27:16  <frosch123> while topspeed is 88
19:28:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, the tradeoff is te vs topspeed, but power should be similar
19:28:55  <andythenorth> agreed
19:28:58  <andythenorth> no reason not to
19:29:21  <andythenorth> I think original power was set for realism + encouraging double-heading
19:29:23  <andythenorth> nvm that
19:29:29  <andythenorth> I’ll change in a bit
19:31:11  <V453000> wtf anybody caring about train stats and performance? :D
19:32:32  <frosch123> haha, top headline on reddit: heqs for mail?
19:32:47  <V453000> xd
19:38:13  <andythenorth> wtd? :o
19:38:15  <frosch123> ah well, i did not miss anything
19:38:18  <andythenorth> or even wtf
19:39:04  <frosch123> another thread is about too many pbs signals lagging the game, which makes trains slow down in front of them, because the pbs does not go to green fast enough
19:39:42  <frosch123> but all participants in the discussion are happy :)
19:39:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: the freight engine doesn’t need to be *much* higher power, right?
19:39:50  <frosch123> good 1st level support
19:39:51  * andythenorth tests
19:41:15  <frosch123> it does not need to have more power than the pax
19:41:30  <andythenorth> but not less
19:41:39  <frosch123> but also not 21% less
19:41:44  <frosch123> i guess 5% less is still fine
19:43:48  <andythenorth> I’m making it a little more
19:43:50  <andythenorth> no reason not to
19:45:21  <V453000> yeah reddit is an intellectual black hole
19:45:29  <V453000> brainz melt
19:46:07  <frosch123> V453000: better than the forums :p
19:46:37  <V453000> kind of equal, but reddit is at least active so it does not last for as long
19:49:35  <andythenorth> frosch123: with sufficiently long straights, and no wagon speed limit, the pax engine is always better
19:49:48  <andythenorth> unless I substantially increase HP on the freight, which creates progression problems :)
19:50:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: i mean only up to the point where the freight one reaches max speed
19:51:31  <frosch123> beyond that speed limit, yes, the pax one will eventually be faster
19:51:42  <andythenorth> I’ve adjusted it so freight engine reaches end of 20 tile track first
19:51:44  <andythenorth> it’s about 1 tile ahead
19:52:03  <andythenorth> and for these (quite low) weights, the pax engine struggles to reach max speed even on flat
19:59:49  <andythenorth> with heavier trailing loads, the freight engines are definitely better choice for the track in this test
20:14:17  <andythenorth> frosch123:
20:25:54  <V453000> I really need to make new signals for brix
20:34:05  <andythenorth> FIRS BRIX
20:34:43  <andythenorth> this was boring, was copy of fertiliser plant
20:34:51  * andythenorth turning it into
20:35:05  <andythenorth> got another tile of ‘wtf’ pipework planned
20:35:29  <andythenorth> V453000: criticism plz ^
20:35:37  <Alberth> maybe a horizontal tank?
20:35:48  <Alberth> all your tanks are vertical or round :p
20:35:52  <andythenorth> yup agreed
20:35:57  <andythenorth> big chimney is horrible, needs work
20:36:39  <Alberth> house on top is a bit weird to me too
20:36:45  <Alberth> bit big for so high
20:37:00  <andythenorth> yeah, possibly
20:37:03  <andythenorth> it’s cut-paste
20:37:07  <andythenorth> I was looking at
20:37:14  <andythenorth> not worried about realism though
20:37:30  <Alberth> ah
20:37:48  <V453000> moar totally random pipes
20:37:52  <Alberth> less windows?
20:37:53  <V453000> I think that is what makes chemical plant
20:38:09  <V453000> other than that is looks nice, but the big chimney on the right seems like in different style
20:38:16  <Alberth> more pipe is always good :)
20:38:29  <andythenorth> also
20:38:46  <V453000> the big chimney looks like it has a very photorealistic texture, but it looks flat - it would need more highlights to make it look more round
20:39:12  <V453000> it looks nice
20:39:40  <V453000> I would add some small entity like a bit of pipe coming from the ground and back, with some tiny mechanism/box controlling it or what not
20:39:42  <V453000> just a doodad
20:40:12  <Alberth> the red of the high house makes the wood and pipes below, disappear a bit, imho
20:40:18  <Alberth> maybe just an unfortunate CC
20:40:26  <andythenorth> yeah
20:40:34  <andythenorth> the blue one is more contrasting :)
20:40:57  <andythenorth> needs a lot more pipe
20:45:19  <andythenorth> I want some of these gantries with just loads of pipe everywhere
20:45:56  <andythenorth> ^ also, in the far background, massive 4-pipe pyramid, looks like a rocket engine
20:46:12  <andythenorth> (RHS of the photo)
20:46:49  <V453000> readable?
20:47:11  <V453000> I think the dirt texture at the big chimney is making the inconsistent texture
20:47:13  <andythenorth> yeah
20:47:22  <andythenorth> it’s a mish-mash of at least 4 other industries
20:47:31  <andythenorth> and probably 4 or 5 different people drawing
20:47:33  <V453000> the random bright pixels are AWESOME, taht is IMO what makes the pixel graphics look so great
20:47:35  <andythenorth> I’ll unify it
20:47:36  <V453000> :D
20:47:53  <V453000> yeah the 3 towers/chimneys are each totally different
20:47:58  <andythenorth> yup
20:48:08  <andythenorth> I drew one, one is mph, one is ogfx
20:48:12  <andythenorth> the tanks are ISR
20:48:22  * andythenorth will tidy
20:48:51  <andythenorth> big chimney needs redrawn
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20:50:01  <V453000> nah
20:50:12  <V453000> just get rid of some of the brownish colours and make highlights to make it more round
20:50:16  <V453000> and it will be great
20:50:28  <andythenorth> top vents aren’t spaced right
20:50:53  <V453000> that's fine I would say
20:50:59  <V453000> some detail on their tops would help though
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20:52:23  <andythenorth> I don’t like the CC stripes there either
20:52:35  <andythenorth> should have some massive cc band, or crazy hatching or something
20:53:24  <V453000> idk, they could be improved but they aren't the breaking factor to me
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21:01:02  <andythenorth> V453000: I want the big chimney something like the one in bg of this photo
21:01:16  <andythenorth> on the left, looks squat and impressive
21:03:17  <V453000> hm
21:03:44  <V453000> weird building :P
21:04:35  <Supercheese> Industrial buildings are nearly always weird
21:04:52  <andythenorth> I tried to find wtf inspiration
21:05:00  <andythenorth> otherwise all industries are just metal or brick boxes
21:05:00  <Supercheese> the engineers don't have to care about any pesky aesthetics
21:05:20  <Supercheese> pure function (well, optimally)
21:05:50  <Supercheese> I suppose the occasional industrial architect might get a kick out of adding nonfunctional pretty bits
21:07:04  <V453000> :)
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21:15:29  <V453000>
21:15:31  <V453000> bridges need fixing
21:15:35  <V453000> but the tracks themselves are great
21:17:49  <V453000> also, road crossings :P they will get some semaphore though
21:20:11  <V453000> gnight
21:20:13  <V453000> forums haz post
21:20:14  <V453000> :>
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21:21:18  <andythenorth> V453000: is getting awesome
21:21:24  <andythenorth> colour pallette is great
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21:21:46  <Supercheese> Man, I don't even want to think how many man-hours have been spent using the sprite-aligner tool to get all that looking good
21:22:06  * Supercheese hates aligning sprites
21:22:28  <Supercheese> but look good it does
21:23:42  <andythenorth>
21:24:08  <andythenorth> big chimney shape is wrong
21:24:21  <andythenorth> but industrial look of it is better
21:31:59  <Supercheese> and smoke alignment of course
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22:45:10  <Terkhen> Good night
22:49:38  <argoneus> gn8
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