Log for #openttd on 16th March 2016:
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00:04:36  <drac_boy> btw flygon and sim-a12 about big gauges I almost forgot about it but even if it never got to exist in real scale (that is as a commercial route you know what I mean) its still interesting to see what hilter's people had been thinking
00:05:09  <drac_boy> basically a super-broad gauge yep 0_0 .. not sure how ineffective the massively large-sized steam boilers would had been tho (but at least diesel or electric makes reasonable sense)
00:06:07  <drac_boy> (for anyone here: the black steam locomotive is normal gauge for comparison sake)
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00:12:17  <sim-al2> Like many other plans of the time, I don't think they were particularly well thought out
00:13:20  <sim-al2> It feels a lot like the 50's/60's future gazing, but with even more propaganda aspects
00:13:57  <drac_boy> yeah I think the problem of metal stress would also had probably came into play if not the issue with production of such large metal pieces during wartime
00:14:06  <Flygon> drac_boy: Wasn't that 3m gauge?
00:14:18  <sim-al2> Also, that crew door is like 10+ feet off the ground. I think this was an engineer-free zone
00:14:43  <drac_boy> btw have you seen the scanlets for old Popular Science magazines and the like? they always have these silly spaceship-styled trains (and often on some fictional one-rail setup that might not work in real life either)
00:15:07  <sim-al2> Yeah, there's no way they could have afforded to build that massive infrastructure
00:16:04  <Flygon> iirc, the idea behind 3m gauge was so they could drive military equipment between the rails
00:16:24  <Flygon> The engineers involved wanted two 1435mm tracks instead, due to being more servicable
00:16:39  <Flygon> I think they were going for two bogies side-by-side
00:16:43  <sim-al2> I wonder how much damage those future train visions actually did, since the ones that did get built tended to not work very well. Meanwhile, the European countries and others spent less time on design fads
00:17:49  <sim-al2> Building tunnels and bridges to fit those massive things would have been a nightmare
00:19:52  <drac_boy> btw I do recall there was one real case of rather-broad gauges ... it was some sort of funicular-like system for lifting a boat sideway between two extreme elevation differences
00:20:17  <drac_boy> not sure I recall what the gauge were or how these few special wagons were eventually made
00:21:09  <drac_boy> maybe if I could recall more details I'll be able to find it (not these stupid cheap "home system" little rails to lift their 20hp boats out of the lake with)
00:21:55  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:25:54  <drac_boy> (it made sense after all..considering that having the hull (or body of water as wide as the hull itself either way) held by a wide gauge probably kept it easily stable the entire time
00:27:12  <sim-al2> They certainly help save money over, say, massive lock complexes
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00:27:56  <drac_boy> yeah locks probably are reasonable for if its only 2-3 doors ... or spread out over a rather long distance ... but lifts is best if you have a lot of rise in short distance
00:28:04  <drac_boy> thats what I think anyway, you? ^
00:29:37  <sim-al2> Yeah, I don't know of too many systems that don't cover a signifcant elevation change, a funicular of that scale is a pretty significant investment
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00:35:26  <drac_boy> oh I finally found something, apparently its 'canal plane' not 'boat lift' I should had keyworded the first time around ... the first photo looks for sure like a very wide gauge .. the second photo's page link quotes 3.27m gauge and it looks like the gauge was made to align with the side supports on the cradles themself which makes sense
00:35:54  <drac_boy> so there we go .. its wider than russia's railroad gauge .. even if its not exactly a "train kind of railroad" itself in this sense
00:37:49  <Flygon> <sim-al2> I wonder how much damage those future train visions actually did, since the ones that did get built tended to not work very well. Meanwhile, the European countries and others spent less time on design fads
00:37:59  <Flygon> Australia never had the time to go for any such stuff
00:38:10  <Flygon> The closest we got was some kickass Streamliners
00:38:21  <Flygon> Like New South Wales's 38xx actually resembling a Shinkansen
00:39:17  <drac_boy> flygon heh .. streamliner and you being aussie .. guess what one of my favorite steam locomotive somehow is? :P (hint: it was close to where you live heh)
00:39:18  <Flygon> They regulary punched over 160km/h, to boot
00:40:09  <Flygon> xP I know of the Spirit of Progress, drac_boy
00:40:29  <Flygon> Sooo many Americans think it's a Diesel when they first see it
00:40:37  <Flygon> So... erm, VR certainly did their job well xP
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00:40:41  <Flygon> Anyway, I gotta brb, dishes time
00:41:28  <sim-al2> Russian gauge isn't really all that much wider, 1520 mm vs 1435 mm (or 5 ft vs 4 ft 8.5 in )
00:42:10  <sim-al2> But yeah, heavy duty rails, like those for cranes and other industrial facilities had vastly wider spacing
00:42:19  <drac_boy> flygon let me give you a better hint: it had a slight inward slanted nose (alike to that Baldwin Sharknose diesel in usa not surprisingly) ... and was quoted as "has power under the belt" regarding working on express routes with some grades
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00:52:44  <drac_boy> sorry have to go for now but see you another time flygon :)
00:52:53  <drac_boy> and bye sim-train :p hehe
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00:54:58  <sim-al2> Hmmm, another Australian slant-nose, albiet a very different era:
01:04:44  <Flygon> Back
01:05:09  <Flygon> Ahh, yes
01:05:16  <Flygon> The AN-Class loco :3
01:05:28  <Flygon> A shame AN company got dismantled
01:05:38  <Flygon> The AN-Class loco could've been nice for express pax
01:05:41  <Flygon> They're grunty af
01:11:07  <sim-al2> Geared decently high, I wonder why, since they were mostly freight
01:13:25  <sim-al2> 150 km/h, vs the 115 km/h or so of most modern freight types in Oz
01:18:10  <Flygon> I suspect they miiiight've wanted to use them on pax
01:18:13  <Flygon> But I truly don't know
01:18:26  <Flygon> With the high gearing tho, they'd be useful for MODERN V/Line pax >_>
01:18:30  <Flygon> But, they're too old now
01:18:53  <Flygon> V/Line really would benefit from extra locos as an interum until they get more VLocities
01:19:06  <sim-al2> Yeah, I was just reading, apparently the high gearing of the EL class was because they were intended for express working, perhaps they felt the AN had enough TE even with the high gearing
01:20:01  <sim-al2> You can see the limits of the lightweight traction motors like the GE 761 in the EL Class though, compared to the 752 that was dominant in North America
01:23:46  <sim-al2> Even regeared now, it's 232 kN continuous for an EL, compared to 485 kN continuous for the Aussie Dash 8 locomotives (
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01:40:19  <Flygon> sim-al2: Australian, in general, either way
01:40:25  <Flygon> Tends to have locos capping out @ 115km/h
01:40:39  <Flygon> Most of our tracks never worked well for High Speed working
01:41:00  <Flygon> Even if, especially in the steam era, the machines were way more than capble of blowing the speed limit
01:41:16  <Flygon> Like, with VR's Spirit of Progress/S-Class express passengers
01:41:32  <Flygon> They were only meant to cap out at 115km/h, and enforced by paper recorder
01:41:44  <Flygon> Cue the rare occassions where the recorder ran out of paper...
01:42:34  <Flygon> Going by drivers reading from their own speedometer, and this is largely a 'reportedly' thing, because, obviously, the recorder wasn't exactly recording, they would regulary blow 150km/h in revenue service if they could get away with it >_>
01:42:58  <Flygon> And, apperantly, didn't push faster, because they didn't want to be seen as arriving conspicuously early at stations...
01:47:32  <Flygon> It's a shame we'll never find out if they could beat the 38xx
01:47:55  <Flygon> They all got scrapped, and the closest relatives are... not really close enough
01:51:40  <Flygon> (basically, the H-Class aka. Heavy Harry would need both heavy restoration, and, even then, it's driving wheels are actually smaller. It would never give a true representation of top speed)
01:52:16  <Flygon> (the R-Class has the driving wheel size, and is a newer design, but it's not really as powerful... but it is certainly the most available class to actually try a speed trial on)
01:55:39  <Flygon> The final say in Victorian Steam, even if not intentionally
01:55:58  <sim-al2> Almost a let-down
01:56:07  <Flygon> Almost
01:56:14  <sim-al2> Compared to the streamliners appearing before
01:56:18  <Flygon> Still, there is a few things I want to note
01:56:24  <Flygon> In the 90s, and early 00s
01:56:34  <Flygon> It actually got used for mainline services, in place of Diesel locos
01:56:38  <Flygon> 40 years after it was build
01:56:48  <Flygon> Mainly because
01:56:50  <Flygon> 1. It's cool
01:57:08  <Flygon> 2. They're actually quite powerful, and can hold an N-Class locomotive's schedule
02:00:53  <Flygon> 3. When WCR added modifications to several R-Classes in the late 90s, the output from the chimeny was powerful enough to actually blast holes in 1850s brickwork when they went through some Bendigo line tunnels... @_______@
02:01:11  <sim-al2> That sounds expensive...
02:01:52  <Flygon> Yeah, that's why the modifications got removed later on
02:02:00  <Flygon> They were mantainence intensive
02:02:25  <Flygon> A fair few of the R-Classes got fitted with DMU controls, too
02:02:49  <Flygon> Sadly, due to the fact that they need a human shoveler, they can't actually act as a Slave to another Steam or Diesel loco
02:03:39  <Flygon> Would have been very interesting to see the H-Class fitted with DMU controls, that can also send vital Steam related information to the other locos... the damn thing is powerful enough to outclass every other Australian loco until the 1990s >_>
02:05:51  <sim-al2> Wow, averaging 51mph with six stops over 166mi. Not bad...
02:06:15  <Flygon> Spirit of Progress?
02:06:26  <Flygon> It'd be higher if there wasn't a speed limit :3
02:07:01  <sim-al2> No, the WCR R-class schedule
02:07:55  <Flygon> Ooooh
02:08:14  <Flygon> Yeah, it's the same as the Diesel schedule
02:08:33  <Flygon> They would sometimes run with a Diesel behind the Steam Loco for low end acceleration, though
02:08:55  <sim-al2> Would the services always be double-headed?
02:09:06  <Flygon> But I think that only happened if they either needed to transfer the Diesel locomotive (and cbf doing it light loco), or if the consist was particulary long
02:09:06  <Flygon> Nope
02:09:15  <Flygon> A lot were just the 'Super' R-Class alone
02:13:10  <Flygon>
02:13:45  <Flygon>
02:15:00  <Flygon> Ooh, yeah, they were Oil Burning... I suppose they could have operated as DMU slaves if properly modified
02:15:10  <Flygon> Though, by that point, it's more of an SMU+DMU :U
02:15:34  <sim-al2> Really needs someone to watch the boiler though, just to make sure the water, etc. are in limits
02:15:42  <Flygon> Yeah, hence the modifications
02:15:52  <Flygon> You'd need that data relayed to the lead Diesel or Steam loco somehow
02:15:58  <Flygon> With computers, nowadays, you can...
02:16:04  <Flygon> But in the 50s? I wouldn't want to try
02:16:28  <Flygon> ...why is one of these passenger runs in the video triple headed
02:16:36  <Flygon> (An R-Class, and two T-Class Diesels...)
02:17:00  <sim-al2> The AAR MU system used on tons and tons of locomotives worldwide has an engine alarm bell, but nothing to really transmit other data
02:17:18  <Flygon> (T-Class, aka. the most unkillable Diesel locomotive in Australian history)
02:17:23  <Flygon> Yeah, exactly
02:19:31  <Flygon> Huh, a few of the Diesels in the video are either running in idle, or turned off completely
02:19:34  <sim-al2> Hmmm, isn't the max speed on the T-class only 100 km/h? The second train seems to be going at least that fast
02:20:49  <Flygon> If the T-Classes are turned on, they might just be on idle
02:21:11  <Flygon> However, as with everything VR related... the top speeds are merely a suggestion
02:21:42  <Flygon> ...this is the perfect metaphor for how low budget our current railways are. Except it's not even a metaphor.
02:23:18  <sim-al2> Judging by how many old locomotives are running around even now, it seems to be more of a supply problem
02:23:25  <Flygon> It is
02:23:29  <Flygon> They're 60 years old
02:23:43  <sim-al2> Also, almost no wheelslip control
02:24:40  <sim-al2> No sand does complicate things too
02:24:47  <Flygon> It would have almost been easier to ring up V/Line and ask them to send over an N-Class locomotive... but they'd never have the budget for that
02:25:05  <Flygon> It's literally cheaper to ditch the current trip, and reverse all the way back to somewhere for repairs
02:25:37  <sim-al2> THe variety of locomotives running for the various groups is cool, but it doesn't seem terribly efficient at times
02:25:53  <Flygon> Oooh, that's humiliating. It got overtaken by a VLo going 160...
02:26:07  <Flygon> Hell, even a 3-Class VLo with transition couplers could've saved the train
02:26:17  <sim-al2> Well, it is a freight train
02:26:31  <sim-al2> It's really bad when passenger trains are being overtaken by freight trains
02:27:11  <Flygon> Well, actually
02:27:20  <Flygon> Suburban trains get overtaken by freight easily here
02:27:22  <Flygon> Lots of stops
02:28:03  <sim-al2> Fair enough, Amtrak had problems with various railroad's dispatch screwing them over
02:29:12  <Flygon> Oh man, the comments...
02:29:28  <Flygon> They have a point. Heavy Harry could very well have likely hauled the entire load lonesome @_@
02:29:49  <sim-al2> If it could start the train...
02:30:07  <Flygon> I mean, you have multiple consecutive normal punches with the 1000hp Diesel locos...
02:30:12  <Flygon> And then you have the One Punch
02:30:13  <Flygon> :B
02:30:29  <Flygon> But, yeah. The situation here really hasn't improved.
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02:46:23  <Supercheese> looks pretty neat
02:46:37  <Supercheese> some clearly-TTD inspired stuff
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03:01:00  <sim-al2> I mean even in just terms of weight on drivers, that consist should have much greater starting TE, and it still can't do it
03:05:38  <Flygon> Yeah, the state of freght here's a mess
03:06:49  <sim-al2> Stealing some of those new GE and EMD -based types from the north might help :p
03:07:14  <Flygon> Wrong gauge
03:07:18  <Flygon> Victoria needs to SGize already
03:07:23  <Flygon> Then we can properly share shit with NSW
03:07:53  <sim-al2> I imagine getting some bogies suitable to BG would be much cheaper in the short-term
03:08:08  <Flygon> It is
03:08:15  <Flygon> But there's still masive beaurocratic issues
03:08:59  <Flygon> Main issue being that nobody has $$$
03:09:07  <Flygon> And the Government's hopelessly ineffectual
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07:40:38  <Wolf01> hi o/
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08:55:52  <degasus> damn guys, just because of you, only 4 hours sleep per day isn't funny....
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09:03:22  <V453000> :D
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09:30:24  <openbu> Hi
09:31:05  <V453000> hello
09:33:36  <degasus> by the way, is there a way to automatically replace trains with more train engines? eg I want to replace two Lev2 per train with a single Lev4
09:34:41  <degasus> or a single Lev2 with two of the same kind :D
09:36:59  <V453000> nope
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10:39:50  <Flygon> This has to be the most requested OTTD feature
10:39:51  <Flygon> :D
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10:47:20  <degasus> oh, haven't seen this one on the common requested features. Likely I've just missed it ...
10:55:01  <V453000> using a train set which makes all trains equal length fixes it
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10:56:14  <degasus> I'm more asking about supporting multi engine trains. eg with very long trains, I may want to use 3 instead of 2 engines
10:56:40  <V453000> I understand, but from what I heard (I am not a programmer myself), the feature is a big pain to implement
10:56:54  <V453000> so it is better to just use train sets which work properly as they are
10:57:33  <V453000> for example if all of the engines are 1 tile long in total, you can have a variety of "normal" and dual headed trains easily
10:58:14  <degasus> yeah, the separation of "engine" and carriages doesn't sound trivial
10:58:31  <V453000> in general it leads to some solution like "train patterns"or whatnot
10:58:35  <V453000> but it's tough
10:58:51  <degasus> maybe go up the big way, don't replace the engine, replace the train. So train configuration A shall be replaced with configuration B
10:59:01  <V453000> if you want a train set where you can autoreplace any engine without losing wagons/problems, use NUTS train set :)
10:59:12  <V453000> yeah something like that
10:59:24  <degasus> I guess there are usually only a few configurations :D
11:01:03  <V453000> yeah but still :)
11:01:14  <V453000> it would probably require rewriting of many things how the trains work
11:01:15  <V453000> idk
11:01:20  <degasus> oh, is it a technical or design decision to not allow bridges to cross? At different high levels of course
11:01:53  <degasus> hopefully "only" the train replacement logic. Else this could should be rewritten anyways :D
11:02:08  <V453000> kind of both ... in original ttd it wasn't there, and adding it means you need to check if the bridge below is low enough to allow another bridge on top
11:02:44  <degasus> for the GFX? Else I'd say a different level is fine ;)
11:02:47  <V453000> I believe such feature was quite close to done, to let bridges go over other lower bridges and stations, but each of the things would have it's "Z value" which would tell how tall it is, and from it would come the possibilities
11:03:12  <V453000> well yeah mainly for not breaking the visuals too much
11:04:29  <degasus> hm, Z per type sounds nice, indeed. For GFX, I hope low to upper blits shall fix all kind of this issues? But I'm not familiar with the old school 2d blittings :/
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11:26:56  <degasus> by the way, how common is the feature request for curves within tunnels and bridges? :D
11:28:54  <degasus> I'm dreaming of a rollercoaster tycoon building system, but I see why this will never come :D
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11:39:32  <V453000> 0% chance to success
11:44:56  <degasus> no epsilon?
12:08:19  <Flygon> I like to think of it as "A chance of success if enough money is thrown at it"
12:08:32  <Flygon> But I haven't become a multi-millionaire off stocks yet
12:09:12  <Flygon> And even worse
12:09:17  <Flygon> I can't draw this freaking thumb
12:11:27  <Flygon> ...
12:11:37  <Flygon> It just ocoured to me that I can use my own hand as a reference.
12:18:25  <Flygon> Nope
12:18:27  <Flygon> Didn't wrk
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13:26:27  <dihedral> hello
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14:17:30  <supermop> yo
14:20:59  <degasus> Flygon: is there a point in missing money on the openttd project? Or more about man power?
14:21:14  <Flygon> Manpower
14:21:18  <Flygon> Howdy supermop
14:21:45  <degasus> good, it's easier to get my time than my money :D
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14:23:02  <V453000> lol, to make full use of blender's command line rendering you have to write python scripts for it
14:23:07  <V453000> just to make it a proper 3D software
14:23:09  <V453000> cute as fuck
14:23:46  <degasus> I wish more applications have such a python API :D
14:24:20  <supermop> rhino does
14:24:42  <V453000> well sure, scripting can be an advantage, but it shouldn't be required to render a couple passes
14:25:06  <V453000> forcing command line rendering is shit by itself already ... but command line not having access to majority of the important render settings is pure wtf
14:26:02  <V453000> what you end up with is that the gui has a couple features, command line has a couple features, but neither is enough :D
14:26:18  <V453000> so the only way is to make a python script which actually controls blender for you
14:26:35  <degasus> how are those GFX packs generated? Are there some structured 3D data available for all objects?
14:27:18  <V453000> kind of
14:27:25  <supermop> never bothered with blender V453000
14:27:52  <degasus> I've just found , and it makes me feel like trying to write a 3d renderer. But I'm not able to design *anything*
14:28:02  <V453000> it isn't a bad program in general, I actually like working with it. But there are points when you can't believe such primitive functions are missing
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14:28:18  <V453000> admittedly the learning curve is total bullshit. Starting with blender is the hardest software I have ever seen
14:28:36  <supermop> the promote it as useful to the a&d industrustry, but to be honest i've never met an architect, interior designer, nor furniture designer who has ever heard of it other than myself.
14:28:40  <V453000> mainly because there are almost no buttons for modelling tools, you need to remember hotkeys or die dumb dropdown menus
14:29:06  <V453000> hehe yeah, well blender isn't a great fit for archviz
14:29:17  <V453000> especially due to the cad imports etc, max wins 100%
14:29:39  <V453000> also max is able to render anything you want easily ._.
14:30:50  <V453000> I just don't get how can a 3D suite omit a feature like "being able to render shit"
14:30:54  <V453000>  /rant over
14:32:03  <supermop> very few architects use max either tho - we just render directly in rhino/cad/revit while we work, then we pay someone like V453000 $$$ to render the nice presentation images in max for us
14:32:09  <supermop> and bill the client
14:32:33  <supermop> if we cant bill the client, just show them crappy screen grabs from some bullshit like sketchup
14:32:34  <V453000> well yeah, that trend is of course going to be only better as architect-friendly programs are able to render better outputs
14:32:42  <V453000> part of the reason why I wanted to leave the archviz industry
14:39:15  <supermop> oops autocad caps lock
14:46:37  <V453000> heh yeah 00
14:46:46  <V453000> blender cycles is a great render engine to be honest
14:46:55  <V453000> just hard to output something from blender XD
15:01:57  <supermop> ive seen some cool stuff out of it
15:04:28  <supermop> does pikka use blender?
15:05:18  <supermop> man so bummed, got last company to buy a rhino and flamingo license no problem, now this place only uses sketchup and taiwan
15:10:35  <V453000> pikka used some old max version
15:11:34  <V453000> I am assuming he still does
15:12:18  <supermop> we don't even use currect sketch up - like a 5 yo version
15:12:33  <supermop> so i cant use the free version of maxwell for sketch up with it
15:13:31  <V453000> xd
15:22:15  <supermop> dont think 5 seats of revit are in the budget though
15:24:36  <V453000> understandable
15:31:34  <supermop> esp as i am the only one who even sort of knows how to use it
15:32:26  <supermop> so workflow benefits would be lost
15:33:10  <V453000> did you hear about the BIM database workflow?
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15:39:19  <supermop> no
15:39:33  <supermop> but we need better workflow tools here
15:39:40  <supermop> like version control
15:39:59  <supermop> actually we are small enough that it's just a nuisance, not a problem
15:41:23  <V453000> hm :)
15:41:28  <V453000> yeah vcs is a great thing
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15:43:30  <V453000> idk how in the us but in europe it is getting more and more common that construction/architecture jobs require to be compatible with BIM system - it is a thing where during modelling you set materials, and these materials carry many values like prices per cubature, and many other things, so other professions than projectants can make use of it to determine price estimates and other shit ... basically all professions work in one database
15:45:21  <V453000> but yeah it is a workflow oriented on bigger companies probably
15:45:33  <V453000> though I read about some smaller architect studios using it
15:45:56  <V453000> one of the huge downsides is that it takes like a year to start working efficiently in it, and of course the software price
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15:55:35  <supermop> yeah, most big projects here are like that now, can revit really plugs into that workflow easily
15:55:55  <supermop> but small firms doing small projects are kind of on the outside
15:56:17  <supermop> the entry costs in time and money are too big to be worth it for them
15:56:59  <supermop> if you are doing something small with a small team, you could say " we can manage ok without it"
15:58:01  <V453000> ye
15:59:22  <supermop> and at a small firm, most of the decisions are driven by the principals, and if they are old guys - it was hard enough to get them to use cad. no way are they going to learn something different now, even if it is technically easier in the long run
15:59:55  <V453000> yeah that was exactly the problem we were facing, the jump from drawing boards to cad was already enough for them :D
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16:01:07  <supermop> they still think of cad as a fancy version of a drawing board with drafting film - they only consider it a medium for 2d abstractions of 3d forms - not something where 3d is possible or desirable
16:01:20  <V453000> XD yes
16:03:02  <supermop> then there are the guys like 10-15 years older than me, who are fast at cad and understand 3d, but their workflow is still to have 2d and 3d completely separate
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16:04:04  <supermop> they think 3d is only for fancy presentations and concepts, and that all development of the building is actually done in cad in 2d
16:04:56  <supermop> better when you work on a big project for a government agency, and the government says - if you want to build our building, you have to use BIM
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16:08:49  <V453000> yeah
16:08:53  <V453000> exactly what I was refering to
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16:19:44  <supermop> frustratingly not cheap to 3d print large quantities of miniature breakwater tetrapods
16:24:57  <Alberth> a few years back, 3d printing didn't even exist :)
16:25:39  <Alberth> unless you had a few zillions, that is
16:30:29  <supermop> i did it once in architecture school - took like 16 hours
16:30:57  <supermop> and the resolution was pretty bad
16:31:25  <supermop> i even had to pay the school for the printer time
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16:36:50  <Alberth> you were the sole owner of a 3d printer for a whole 16 hours thus :)
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17:19:19  <Wolf01> meh, 90€ of vip points on the lego shop and I don't even need a single set :(
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17:37:34  <Rubidium> Wolf01: that really sounds like
17:44:56  <Wolf01> Nah, it's me, I'm too fast on buying new stuff as soon it is available
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17:56:47  <Wolf01> o/
17:56:53  <andythenorth> o/
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18:32:41  <andythenorth> is cat?
18:33:37  <degasus> why is "creating industries" so slow on big maps?
18:34:26  <degasus> perf says eg 4.5% for DistanceManhattan, shouldn't this be inlined?
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18:35:53  <Alberth> cat is! :)
18:36:19  <Wolf01> bye
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20:14:07  <Julien12150> that's a lot of users
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23:06:05  <drac_boy> hi
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