Log for #openttd on 24th March 2016:
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08:35:53  <Wolf01> o/
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09:00:30  <Flygon_> I HAVE WEILDED
09:00:31  <Flygon_> THE POWER
09:00:34  <Flygon_> OF THE SINE WAVE
09:00:36  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
09:00:40  * Flygon goes and gets more Pizza
09:00:49  <Supercheese> But is it.... the Triangle Wave of Doom?
09:02:08  <Flygon> Even worse
09:02:11  <Flygon> It's Tim Follin
09:09:08  <Wolf01> you seem to be a strange breed of pokemon... a flygon with a breloom made a linoone shaped pikachu?
09:10:43  <Flygon> Well
09:10:48  <Flygon> The tl;dr is
09:10:58  <Flygon> I've had this name for 13 years
09:11:06  <Flygon> And 'flygon' was already taken on YouTub
09:11:09  <Flygon> So I needed a placeholder <_>
09:11:29  <Wolf01> why not "TheMightyFlygon"?
09:12:52  <Wolf01> btw, nice job with that song
09:13:28  <Flygon> Eh, I just followed instructions
09:13:43  <Flygon> The C64 tunes KapteinKUK uploaded worked better
09:13:45  <Wolf01> what software did you use?
09:13:53  <Flygon> "TheMightyFlygon" sounds like an autistic dude :P
09:14:09  <Flygon> 'SidWiz'
09:14:26  <Flygon> Needs to be run in a C# dev environment because... derp
09:14:39  <Flygon> Instructions are in this vid's comments
09:16:47  <Flygon> It's... clunky
09:18:34  <Flygon> And incredibly CPU intense
09:18:46  <Wolf01> the part I don't get is how to record each channel separately
09:19:57  <Flygon> It's in my description xP
09:20:02  <Flygon> What do you plan to record from/
09:20:06  <Flygon> from?*
09:20:09  <Flygon> What console?
09:21:12  <Wolf01> nah, I won't do that, at most I'll open a .mid file and record the channels from there :P
09:21:56  <Wolf01> about 20 years ago I played a lot with midi files (I have a midi keyboard too)
09:22:05  <Flygon> Hmm
09:22:13  <Flygon> Uhm, not sure how to help there
09:22:21  <Flygon> Can't be too hard to export one channel at a time to a .wav, tho O_o
09:22:28  <Flygon> Jesus, 20 years ago...
09:22:40  <Flygon> 20 years ago, I couldn't even write
09:22:52  <Wolf01> :D
09:24:10  <Wolf01> just fyi, I played the first gen of pokemon when I was already in middle school
09:24:26  <Flygon> Middle School doesn't exist here :P
09:24:27  <Flygon> BUT
09:24:34  <Flygon> Pokemon taught me how to read better than any book
09:24:40  <Flygon> Fuk a anti-gamers :B
09:24:44  <Flygon> Also Shining Force
09:25:51  <Wolf01> I learnt a bit of french playing zelda: link's awakening... I purchased it and it was in french :(
09:26:01  <Flygon> lolwut
09:26:02  <Flygon> UK?
09:26:06  <Wolf01> Italy
09:26:09  <Flygon> Oh
09:26:10  <Flygon> Dang
09:26:17  <Flygon> Yeah, that makes sense too
09:27:44  <Wolf01> then I sold it to purchase the DX english version for gameboy color :P
09:27:54  * Flygon nod xP
09:28:38  <Wolf01> but stop going offtopic.. lets talk about factorio XD
09:30:41  <Flygon> Factorio?
09:30:50  <Flygon> atm, trying to calculate in my head how to stack 9 channels
09:31:15  <Flygon> 2 Square Wave, 1 Noise, 5 FM, 1 Sample
09:31:25  <Flygon> Thinking of doing 2 columns, 4 rows
09:31:40  <Flygon> With the Sample channel taking up two columns in the bottom fifth row
09:31:48  <Flygon> But I dunno how to C hastag
09:31:55  <Flygon> xPPPP
09:32:50  <Wolf01> I'm trying to develop a UWP feed reader...
09:37:41  <Flygon> UWP?
09:37:48  <Flygon> Sorry, my brain's gone a bit messy
09:37:55  <Wolf01> universal windows platform
09:39:15  <Flygon> Ooh
09:40:17  <Flygon> Alright
09:40:22  <Flygon> Here's hoping my source code mods work
09:54:35  <Flygon> 'An unhandled exception of type 'System.OutOfMemoryException' occurred in SidWiz.exe'
09:54:36  <Flygon> FUCK
09:56:49  <Wolf01> eh, let's talk about I'm not able to load ANY rss.xml because "invalid char: Line 1 at position 1"
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09:57:14  <Flygon> I'm trying to figure out why it's crashing at just 800MB used
09:57:25  <Flygon> I have 4GB to spar
09:57:47  <Wolf01> maybe it's the app which can't handle more than 800MB?
09:58:16  <Flygon> This is where my lack of C# knowledge comes in
09:58:58  <Flygon> What's the 32-bit version of 'long'?
09:59:00  <Flygon> Er
09:59:01  <Flygon> 64-bit
10:00:14  <Flygon> Oh
10:00:16  <Flygon> Uhm
10:00:18  <Flygon> Okay, nvm
10:00:20  <Flygon> I fucked up
10:00:24  <Flygon> I'm a complete idiot
10:01:00  <Flygon> I can't seem to make the buffer longer
10:08:28  <Flygon> Fuuuck
10:08:32  <Flygon> Okay, so
10:08:35  <Flygon> I'm dumping 9 channels
10:08:39  <Flygon> In 5 separate sessions
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10:48:24  <Flygon> 2
10:48:25  <Flygon> ...
10:48:32  <Flygon> Why did I type 2
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10:50:01  <andythenorth> o/
10:51:08  <Alberth> hi hi
10:51:09  <frosch123> hoi
10:52:16  <andythenorth> ho frosch123 as well :)
10:52:23  <andythenorth> are you all finished early for Easter or something?
10:52:50  <Alberth> mostly I decided to take a day off today :)
10:53:03  <Alberth> tomorrow I am off already
10:53:15  <frosch123> mostly laundry
10:55:01  <Alberth> better than taxes :p
10:59:57  <frosch123> oh, i have to do them as well
11:03:26  * andythenorth did his taxes in December
11:04:25  * andythenorth might have learnt everything that’s interesting to learn about newgrf
11:04:33  <andythenorth> but is C++ beyond me?
11:04:45  <andythenorth> I know my programming skills are limited :P
11:05:53  <Alberth> c++11 is pretty manageable
11:06:05  <Alberth> as long as you stay away from templates :p
11:06:15  <Alberth> but openttd isn't c++11 :p
11:06:15  <andythenorth> does that help me patch OpenTTD? o_O
11:06:59  <Alberth> openttd is closer to C + some classes
11:08:07  <Alberth> what do you aim to do? make another airport patch? :)
11:09:11  <andythenorth> I’d sooner learn Haskell than that :)
11:09:26  * andythenorth wants to poke at unpowered tramways
11:09:31  <andythenorth> and by implication, powered roads
11:10:24  <Alberth> don't understand that implication, but sounds fine
11:11:03  <andythenorth> when choosing to build a road or tramline, ‘catenary’ would be a boolean toggle
11:11:46  <andythenorth> newgrf RVs and trams would require power, or not
11:13:40  <andythenorth> dunno if it means 1 bit per tile or 4
11:14:02  <andythenorth> I think it could be done in a way that doesn’t block a future RoadTypes implementation
11:14:12  <andythenorth> which no-one is ever going to do, but still
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11:19:34  <andythenorth> urgh
11:19:38  <andythenorth> no this can’t be done
11:20:09  <andythenorth> in MP, player could remove another player’s catenary, rendering the route unpowered :(
11:23:25  <Alberth> good point
11:24:06  <andythenorth> unless the catenary is owned, but that is a lot of bits
11:24:38  <Alberth> doesn't really fit with shared road does it?
11:28:05  <frosch123> just add a separate transparency option for tram catenary
11:28:17  <frosch123> who cares whether there is catenary or not
11:28:24  <frosch123> i guess you just don't want to see it
11:29:10  <andythenorth> I was also interested in powered / unpowered
11:29:18  <andythenorth> I could make a newgrf that bins the catenary :)
11:30:55  <_dp_> hi! is there really no way to show GS popup(aka question) to just one client, not whole company?
11:31:19  * andythenorth has made roads with catenary
11:33:12  <Alberth> game doesn't have clients, only companies, afaik
11:34:41  <_dp_> btw, window title text centering is offset by close button it seems, looks off when whole popup text is centered (i.e. always :)
11:35:56  <_dp_> that sucks, coz I want to react to one player's action, don't want to confuse whole company :(
11:36:42  <andythenorth> modify a sign, which is monitored by an admin bot, which uses irc hooks to send them a message in chat
11:36:44  <andythenorth> no really :P
11:36:50  <andythenorth> perhaps not :)
11:37:08  <_dp_> I can send message in chat, no problem, but popup would be better
11:37:31  * andythenorth ventures into UI code, a place never been before
11:37:35  <_dp_> actually, standard red error window would be perfect)
11:37:45  <Alberth> how does one player action not affect the entire company?
11:38:08  <_dp_> he tries to build something that isn't allowed for example
11:38:36  <_dp_> I cancel his action and want to show popup, pretty much like ttd itself does
11:39:08  <_dp_> I mean, it doesn't show error to whole company when you try to destroy other's infrastructure, right? ;)
11:39:44  <Alberth> simply not allowing isn't enough? :o
11:40:37  <_dp_> needs some feedback at least
11:48:41  <_dp_> was even thinking of faking some invalid actions to get error popups but they're hard to get reliably
11:54:26  <Wolf01> meh, how I'm supposed to check the last updated time of a feed if it reports 01/01/1601?
11:57:56  <Alberth> ha, would be fun if that would contain actual news of that date :p
11:58:20  <Alberth> but if the date/time changes, who cares about the actual value?
12:00:22  <Wolf01> I wanted to save a rss.xml for offline usage and update it only when the connection is available and the online feed is updated
12:01:20  <Alberth> just check for change? or doesn't it change either?
12:01:32  <Wolf01> but I think it's too much and I'll let the app download every time the feed
12:01:50  <Alberth> that would work :)
12:01:52  <andythenorth> well
12:02:02  <andythenorth> I added a widget to road construction toolbar
12:02:17  <Alberth> \o/ ?
12:02:19  <andythenorth> I also triggered an assert when opening the tram toolbar :)
12:02:38  <Alberth> haha :)
12:03:22  <Wolf01> ok, now the big problem is to get the image from the summary and render it
12:03:23  <andythenorth> segfault
12:03:30  <Alberth> lots of magic going on in several windows :)
12:03:33  <Wolf01> because every feed can be different
12:04:02  <Wolf01> did you add it with a grf?
12:04:34  <andythenorth> nah
12:04:44  <Wolf01> oh, plain old c++ code
12:05:00  <Alberth> hacking in the belly of the beast :)
12:05:19  <Wolf01> I was figuring out how OTTD improved to be able to add stuff such gui buttons with a grf
12:05:27  <Wolf01> btw, lunch
12:05:30  <andythenorth> segfault seems cured by adding the widget to tram toolbar also
12:06:04  <Alberth> I don't know all those details :)
12:07:22  <andythenorth> hmm
12:07:45  <andythenorth> now if I _just_ can get the widget to cause a bit to be set or not
12:08:05  <andythenorth> DrawTramCatenary() will take care of the drawing, if fed the right bits
12:10:02  * andythenorth wavey hands
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12:10:42  <Alberth> in OnClick, catch clicking the button, and do something bit-ish
12:11:47  <andythenorth> sounds like UI coding :o
12:12:33  <Alberth> well, I think you have to make a command for it, so it can be synced in MP
12:12:48  <Alberth> or extend road building or so
12:13:58  <andythenorth> :)
12:15:28  <_dp_> haha, ran into that tram assert myself few months ago)
12:16:27  <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:16:47  <_dp_>
12:17:57  <andythenorth> around L650 in road_gui.cpp, DoCommandP(
12:18:17  <andythenorth> seems to be where _catenary_button_clicked should be handled
12:18:57  <_dp_> yeah, my was segfaulting when pressing ctrl so probably a slightly different assert...
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12:19:15  <_dp_> but it was caused by adding button either
12:19:42  * andythenorth doesn’t understand the bit shifts
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12:20:48  <Flygon> But bit shifting is the raw juice of a multi-channel Z80 tracker :D
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12:24:54  <_dp_> there are some handy functions in bitmath_func.hpp so you may get away without shifts)
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12:25:39  <andythenorth> there are existing shifts
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12:41:03  <andythenorth> _one_way_button_clicked << 5
12:41:11  <andythenorth> is shifting 5 bits right?
12:41:37  <Wolf01> meh, SyndicationFeed is returning the value for the summary which is html as text and I can't do anything :E
12:41:39  <andythenorth> and this is ORing them?  _place_road_flag | (_cur_roadtype << 3) | (_one_way_button_clicked << 5)
12:42:03  <andythenorth> so I might just add | (_catenary_button_clicked << 6) or such?
12:43:53  <Alberth> x << 5  is 5 bit shift right indeed
12:45:07  <Alberth> technically ORing maps all bits in position i onto each other, if at least one is 1, the result is 1, else 0
12:45:56  <Alberth> but likely here, each value bits set that no other value uses
12:46:13  <Alberth> *but likely here, each value has bits set that no other value uses
12:46:22  <andythenorth> that’s my hope :)
12:46:30  <Alberth> you just merge several values into one integer
12:46:31  <andythenorth> I can’t find if this is a byte or such
12:46:42  <andythenorth> nor where they are unpacked (yet)
12:47:01  <Alberth> _* are global variables
12:47:31  <Alberth> _one_way_button_clicked   sounds like 0/1
12:49:20  <andythenorth> this looks promising
12:49:21  <andythenorth> DisallowedRoadDirections toggle_drd = Extract<DisallowedRoadDirections, 6, 2>(p1);
12:49:35  <Alberth> road_gui.cpp
12:49:35  <Alberth> 62:static RoadType _cur_roadtype;   <-- it's an RoadType enum
12:50:24  <Alberth> which is 0/1 or invalid
12:50:39  <Alberth> the latter is probably shotdown somewhere before?
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12:58:03  <supermop> hi
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13:41:54  <andythenorth> hmm
13:42:09  <andythenorth> lots of Extract<SomeBits
13:42:19  * andythenorth wonders how to use that
13:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that's usually for unpacking the parameters
13:49:59  * _dp_ finds shifts easier to use and understand than Some<Weird>(Templates)
13:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause> supposedly easier to read/debug than bitstuffing
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14:16:30  <andythenorth> this is impenetrable to me: DisallowedRoadDirections toggle_drd = Extract<DisallowedRoadDirections, 6, 2>(p1);
14:16:45  <andythenorth> although I should probably follow back p1 to find what it is :P
14:21:14  <Alberth> cmd_helper.h defines Extract, which eventually does GB(p1, 6, 2)
14:21:51  <Alberth> ie take bit 6 and 7  from p1  ((p1 >> 6) & 3)
14:26:09  <andythenorth> ho :)
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14:28:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: read the comments :p
14:28:56  <frosch123> the comments of each Cmd function specify the bit patterns
14:29:55  <andythenorth> ha ha
14:30:29  * andythenorth didn’t scroll his ‘find’ results window :)
14:36:19  <andythenorth> so I need to stuff a catenary bit in somehow
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14:40:27  <Wolf01> \o/ I was obliterated by a hundred of spitters and biters
14:41:04  * andythenorth can’t find where CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD is defined
14:42:33  <andythenorth> how does a comment cause the name to be assigned? :o
14:42:49  <Alberth> command_type.h
14:42:49  <Alberth> 201:    CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD,              ///< build a complete road (not a "half" one)    <-- that is the actual definition
14:43:06  <Alberth> what crappy text search tool do you use :)
14:43:17  <andythenorth> nah, I find them
14:43:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: the entries in _command_proc_table must have the same order as in the enum
14:43:21  <andythenorth> I just don’t understand them
14:43:35  <andythenorth> I was looking for assignments, I didn’t think about list positions
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14:43:56  <Alberth> bu the entry by frosch123 is correct, each command  exists once as function and once as enum value
14:44:25  <frosch123> its kind of ottd's coding style to put the enum in the comment, if the order is defined by it :)
14:44:41  <andythenorth> ta
14:44:47  <andythenorth> CmdBuildRoad is starting to look hopeful
14:45:01  <Alberth> +Long   :)
14:45:03  <frosch123> i.e. basically you just need to know it :p
14:45:23  <Alberth> or ask here :p
14:45:25  <andythenorth> Long looks more confusing
14:46:09  <andythenorth> how many bits in @param p1 for CmdBuildRoad
14:46:18  <andythenorth> or are the parameter sizes declared somewhere?
14:47:05  <andythenorth> that’s probably what uint32 is doing :P
14:47:07  <frosch123> CmdBuildLongRoad just calls CmdBuildRoad
14:47:33  <Alberth> uint32 means 32 bits :)
14:47:34  <supermop> sorry to nitpick andythenorth but chile and argentina are about as tropical as england is
14:47:45  <andythenorth> I know :)
14:47:50  <supermop> maybe south american basic is better?
14:47:53  <andythenorth> but desert eh?
14:48:05  <andythenorth> and pampas
14:48:05  <supermop> desert +/ tropic
14:48:10  <supermop> =/
14:48:13  <andythenorth> I play with trees on invisible
14:48:17  <Alberth> andy just wanted England + desert :)
14:48:22  <andythenorth> and I patched my openttd
14:48:28  <andythenorth> so sub-tropic landscape isn’t stupid
14:48:44  <andythenorth> if you people can’t follow my settings, I can’t help you :P
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14:54:51  <andythenorth> so I can just dump more bits in?
14:54:59  <andythenorth> or rather, I can just consume more bits?
14:55:12  <frosch123> 0 to 31 are there
14:55:19  <frosch123> if they are not mentioned in the comments
14:55:25  <frosch123> there are expected to be available
14:55:40  <frosch123> *they
14:56:04  * andythenorth experiments
15:01:17  <argoneus> so what are you guys doing?
15:01:28  <argoneus> are you having this strange thing called "fun"?
15:02:35  <frosch123> no, noone got kicked in months
15:02:43  <andythenorth> still time today
15:05:39  <andythenorth> DisallowedRoadDirections is a bad example to copy, assuming I want a simple bool?
15:05:51  * andythenorth trying to add a HasCatenary bit and set it
15:14:00  <V453000> merkel akbar, yoloswag uwot m8
15:14:05  * V453000 waits
15:14:35  <argoneus> 9 / 1 1
15:14:42  * Wolf01 chokes
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15:41:03  <andythenorth> _catenary_button_clicked << 7
15:41:11  <andythenorth> into parameter p1
15:41:18  <andythenorth> can then be read with HasBit(p1, 7)
15:41:19  <andythenorth> ?
15:41:26  <frosch123> yes
15:42:05  <frosch123> don't forget to forward it from CmdBuildLongRoad to CmdBuildRoad
15:43:51  <andythenorth> ach
15:43:54  <andythenorth> that’s the problem
15:49:04  <Alberth> :)
15:51:08  <andythenorth> this is rocket science :P
15:51:30  <andythenorth> but eh
15:51:43  <andythenorth> I can now build road and tramway with or without catenary
15:51:56  <andythenorth> appearance is borked for roads, I can probably fix that
15:52:13  <andythenorth> and there’s no ‘convert’ function, but one-way roads has that
15:53:22  <Alberth> it's a start :)
15:53:41  <supermop> ooooooooh
15:54:04  <supermop> steam trams and trolley busses
15:54:06  <andythenorth> it’s probably a dead end tbh
15:54:36  <supermop> dead end, or cul-de-sac with OHLE?
15:54:39  <andythenorth> dead end
15:54:50  <andythenorth> this won’t be more than a novelty patch
15:54:52  <andythenorth> it uses a bit
15:55:10  <andythenorth> when the correct way to do it is using the RoadTypes spec to detect if the RoadType provides catenary or not
15:55:43  <frosch123> "the roadtypes spec" :)
15:56:53  <andythenorth> and there is the problem that we must be able to provide multiple types of catenary on same tile also
15:57:40  <andythenorth> because IRL trams and RVs use different systems
15:57:57  <andythenorth> ach, this is why I never try to patch stuff :(
15:58:02  * andythenorth -> shops
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16:49:37  <andythenorth> but seriously
16:49:51  <andythenorth> the catenary is just some sticks and 1px wires in 1x zoom
16:50:18  <andythenorth> does it matter about different types?
16:50:30  <andythenorth> I guess 4x zoom needs the details
16:51:17  <frosch123> are there different types?
16:51:24  <Alberth> you're going to build a simulation?
16:51:44  <frosch123> it's pretty much one cable in 99.9% of cases
16:51:51  <frosch123> and then some random stuff to hold it in place
16:52:07  <Alberth> kind of poles, wire above or not, etc
16:52:13  <andythenorth>
16:53:01  <andythenorth> thing is, it just makes it boring eh?
16:53:03  <andythenorth> all this crap
16:53:16  <andythenorth> just demotivates working on patches / features
16:53:47  <Alberth> have a tramtype with optional catenary, and a road type with optional catenary?
16:54:13  <Alberth> or just the combination as one road type
16:54:19  <frosch123> make road and tram types dependent?
16:54:44  <frosch123> that is there are 256 roadtypes, some are road, some are tram, some are both
16:55:00  <Alberth> +1 for that
16:55:02  <frosch123> and a clever gui which allows selecting them in a better way than in a long list
16:55:27  <frosch123> it would mean that you cannot combine road and tram types from different grfs
16:55:30  <Alberth> if people want to have 3 tramtypes and 4 road types in that list, go ahead
16:55:36  <frosch123> but would that work ever anyway?
16:56:19  <andythenorth> ow
16:56:22  <andythenorth> to all of that
16:56:51  <andythenorth> I thought maybe I could just patch this as a simple visual feature
16:56:58  <andythenorth> then maybe have vehicles be powered / not powered
16:57:10  <andythenorth> using same mechanic as railtypes, but faked on the OTTD side
16:57:33  <andythenorth> then patch so that catenary / not catenary was actuall ROAD, ELRD, TRAM, ELTM
16:57:41  <andythenorth> then let someone else make RoadTypes :P
16:58:08  <andythenorth> with all the attendant need to redraw drive in road stops, and bridge and tunnel support, and fix crossings and all the other crap :)
16:58:08  <Alberth> what exactly is the problem with road types?
16:58:22  <frosch123> that noone knows what they shall do :)
16:58:24  <andythenorth> implementing it, or conceptually?
16:58:45  <frosch123> i am already pretty lost with railtypes
16:58:49  <andythenorth> conceptually (1) it’s barely useful (2) whenever it’s discussed, the arguments about spec drive away all motivation to work on it
16:59:14  <andythenorth> the only case I can see for more than one roadtype is an off-highway variant
16:59:24  <andythenorth> and that only to make routing hard in confined spaces
16:59:44  <andythenorth> all other cases (variable speed limits and such) are so boring it’s snooze inducing
16:59:54  <frosch123> exactly :)
17:00:05  <Alberth> fair enough :)
17:00:27  <frosch123> the only interesting thing about railtypes is the visuals
17:01:00  <Alberth> dirt roads versus normal roads versus high way is not visually interesting?
17:01:01  <andythenorth> I like using them to force some gameplay choices
17:01:13  <andythenorth> metro = high capacity per tile, no other vehicles on that route
17:01:17  <andythenorth> narrow gauge = cheap
17:01:25  <andythenorth> rail / elrail = most of your routes
17:01:51  <andythenorth> this however is *solely* a visual thing
17:04:31  <andythenorth> once I figured out passing the bit through CmdBuildLongRoad it wasn’t hard
17:04:46  <andythenorth> it needs station support, probably crossings, savegames etc
17:04:52  <andythenorth> it uses m1 bit 7
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17:07:12  <frosch123> Alberth: also, noone ever wrote anything down. it's all just chat ruminating stuff over and over :)
17:07:28  <andythenorth> I have copies of at least one spec
17:07:28  <Alberth> nothing new there :)
17:07:37  <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s viable
17:07:41  <andythenorth> or interesting tbh
17:07:55  * andythenorth is just a bit grumpy
17:08:22  <andythenorth> I could probably make this work, but I expect it will be rejected because it consumes some of the bits needed for a theoretical implementation of roadtypes
17:08:22  <Alberth> it should be mostly visually oriented imho
17:08:52  <Alberth> tbh I would expect any future roadtypes handles catenary, right?
17:08:58  <andythenorth> probably
17:09:06  <andythenorth> so bits can be migrated?
17:09:17  <Alberth> yeah, I'd expect so
17:09:21  <andythenorth> if the bit is set, provide ELTM
17:09:24  <andythenorth> if not provide TRAM
17:09:25  <andythenorth> etc
17:09:35  <Alberth> no point in having several different bits for catenary
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17:09:47  * andythenorth tries to make crossings and stops work
17:10:40  <Alberth> TRAM and ELTM already exist, or do you make those up?
17:14:00  <andythenorth> made up
17:14:23  <andythenorth> there is some rudimentary implementation of a RoadType class and labels
17:15:11  <andythenorth> but it’s not like railtypes
17:18:05  <andythenorth> crossings and roadstops work
17:18:11  <andythenorth> [for trams]
17:18:19  <andythenorth> drive-in roadstops I am not attempting :)
17:23:52  <andythenorth>
17:24:04  <andythenorth> there are slapdash variable names etc there
17:24:09  <andythenorth> and the icon is one-way road :P
17:24:18  <andythenorth> I think a toolbar toggle is *not* the way to do it
17:25:03  <andythenorth> be better to extend the road construction menu: Road | Tramway | Electrified Tramway
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17:36:44  <andythenorth> ‘convert’?
17:36:48  <supermop> electrified dirt road?
17:38:06  * andythenorth won’t be patching that
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17:39:33  * andythenorth wonders if HasCatenary or HasPower is better for the tile
17:41:49  <Alberth> power can exist  in more forms, right?
17:42:09  <andythenorth> yes
17:42:14  <Alberth> while your bit only toggles the catenary
17:42:17  <andythenorth> whereas this is used for drawing
17:42:19  <sim-al2> Clearly we need third-rail roads
17:42:27  <sim-al2> *fourth-rail
17:42:45  <Alberth> ie "powered" also prevents monorail engine at normal rail
17:43:27  <Alberth> which makes powered more a "can drive here"
17:44:07  <andythenorth> hmm
17:44:19  <andythenorth> it was tunnels that triggered the question
17:45:04  <andythenorth> in trunk, tram tunnels appear to no draw any catenary
17:45:09  <andythenorth> not *
17:45:20  <Alberth> fun :)
17:45:29  <andythenorth> nah, my mistake
17:45:35  <andythenorth> it’s just very hard to see
17:46:06  <Alberth> we need rainbow coloured catenary
17:46:42  <andythenorth> that is achievable
17:46:49  <sim-al2> Ohhhhhh, that sounds fun
17:49:26  <Alberth> we can ask a few yetis to paint it
17:49:43  <andythenorth> tunnelbridge_cmd eh
17:49:57  <Alberth> sounds like the right one :)
17:50:26  <Alberth> wormhole_cmd  would have been nicer :)
17:52:37  <sim-al2> Then we would need Stargate shaped tunnel portals :p
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17:55:28  <andythenorth> ha
17:55:32  <andythenorth> bridges aren’t a tile :D
17:55:36  <sim-al2> And bridges that are shaped like 90's computer animated tubes, or maybe just wires
17:55:40  <andythenorth> HasCatenary(ti->tile) won’t work
17:56:12  <frosch123> DrawBridgeMiddle has for sure already access to the northern bridge tile
17:56:50  * andythenorth tries that
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18:03:04  <andythenorth> works
18:12:40  <andythenorth> hmm
18:13:05  <andythenorth> need to pass _catenary_button_clicked through PlaceRoadStop() and such
18:25:17  <andythenorth> this construction toolbar catenary toggle idea is a turkey
18:25:22  <andythenorth> be much better to split ROADTYPE_TRAM
18:26:31  <andythenorth> it’s only used 108 times :P
18:35:02  <andythenorth> well no actually
18:35:32  <andythenorth> bah, railtypes never will map to roadtypes
18:36:16  <andythenorth> because tram and road inescapably require drawing, vehicle movement, station choices
18:36:51  <andythenorth> ROADTYPE_TRAM and ROADTYPE_ROAD will always be needed as fundamental types
18:37:21  <andythenorth> #openttd, once again andythenorth’s internal monologue
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18:50:37  <supermop> idk power, cable vault, stuff like that should just be painted on to the RoW
18:51:01  <supermop> build pavement, or rail, or one on top of the other
18:51:10  <supermop> then build wires orver it you want
18:51:47  <supermop> build wires onto RoW as you would build track over road?
18:52:02  <supermop> except with prohibition on building wires over nothing?
18:52:16  <andythenorth> toggling wires on and off is weird I think
18:53:30  <supermop> dropdown> build road/build tramway/build trolley wire
18:54:24  <andythenorth> well it’s an idea
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18:54:39  <andythenorth> but that makes building electric trams really tedious, no?
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18:57:01  <supermop> yeah
18:57:05  <supermop> it does
18:57:10  <supermop> but not really
18:57:40  <supermop> dragging the build cursor twice around town is like 10 sec extra
18:58:39  <andythenorth> that’s quite a lot :)
19:00:38  <supermop> feels more honest than two separate types
19:02:32  <frosch123> how about splitting the main toolbar button?
19:02:52  <andythenorth> o_O ?
19:02:55  <frosch123> [build railway] [build road] [build tram] [build canal]
19:03:08  <andythenorth> well that might be a viable patch
19:03:12  <frosch123> then the build tram and build road can have the types in the dropdown (with, without catenary)
19:03:21  <andythenorth> it would improve gameplay, irrespective of my patch idea
19:03:22  <frosch123> without weirdly mixing road and tram types
19:04:00  <andythenorth> would we also split the road vehicles menu?
19:04:05  <andythenorth> probably not
19:04:23  <frosch123> true, that part would be weird
19:05:02  <frosch123> however, this always annoyed me: in the station window there are separate icons for bus and truck, but not for trams
19:05:16  <andythenorth> it’s a bit janky eh?
19:06:12  <andythenorth> hmm, is it not just a truck icon?
19:06:27  <andythenorth> oh different window perhaps
19:06:56  <frosch123> the bus/truck differentiation is very inconsistent :)
19:07:00  <frosch123> there is only one vehicle list
19:07:08  <frosch123> separate icons in station list and station sign
19:07:26  <frosch123> only one icon in for ordered vehicles in the station window
19:07:37  <frosch123> different counting of vehicles in company gui, network gui and so on
19:07:54  <andythenorth> ha
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19:08:18  * andythenorth wonders if a catenary toggle on the construction toolbar actually is best solution
19:08:23  <andythenorth> having considered quite a few others
19:09:24  <frosch123> i guess i would trash the bus icon
19:09:33  <andythenorth> yeah, that seems nonsense
19:09:37  <frosch123> and separate trams for road vehicles in all places
19:09:47  <andythenorth> we don’t have split trains / boats / planes for pax / freight
19:10:00  <frosch123> not sure about vehicle lists
19:10:00  <andythenorth> seems like over-diligence from the stops being split
19:10:32  <frosch123> splitting the list into rv and tram lists would make the names weird
19:10:42  <frosch123> since the naming "road vehicle 1 2 3" would still be shared
19:11:03  <andythenorth> could change that? o_O
19:11:05  <frosch123> though it is also shared with groups, right? and noone complained about that
19:11:08  <andythenorth> Tram 1 2 3 :P
19:11:18  <frosch123> though maybe that is only because people usually name groups
19:11:24  * andythenorth never names groups
19:11:32  <andythenorth> they’re just for autoreplace filtering :P
19:11:46  <andythenorth> hmm
19:11:47  <frosch123> hmm, actually... trams and rv could be named independently while still being in the same pool
19:12:02  <andythenorth> is it just a string prefix?
19:12:25  <andythenorth> ach, all the places though :)
19:12:27  <andythenorth> finances window
19:12:37  <frosch123> i was more thinking about the function that assigns a unique "unitnumber" to a pool item
19:12:45  <andythenorth> oic
19:13:06  <andythenorth> ‘road vehicle destroyed in collision’
19:13:12  <andythenorth> ‘road vehicle is lost'
19:18:56  <andythenorth> the toolbar toggle is not the best solution
19:19:08  <andythenorth> the menu on the main toolbar would be best
19:19:20  <andythenorth> but I could see how to patch the toggle :P
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19:41:56  <drac_boy> hi
19:42:04  <drac_boy> sim-a12 you the trainnut there atm? :P
19:42:11  <drac_boy> or how about you flygon :p
19:43:12  <sim-al2> hi
19:43:39  <drac_boy> btw I found the article about that steam locomotive being cut down due to an ancient tunnel...
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19:45:10  <drac_boy> seem the line was originally worked by Johnson 2F's (small-boiler 0-6-0 from look of one photo) and they were getting old so two 'Standard 2MT' were sent to shed for cab roof reductions among other things to work the route with till traffic finally closed 1966
19:45:29  <drac_boy> the funny thing is the tab of page is titled 'tunnel vision' and the article title is 'cut to fit!' :)
19:46:02  <andythenorth> Alberth: suddenly I am tired and it’s bedtime :)
19:46:05  <andythenorth> back tomorrow?
19:50:53  <drac_boy> btw I can't quite tell but it seem like there are some noticeable differences between this being a normal 2MT and this having different cab windows probably due to the roof being lowered downward a bit
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19:51:47  <drac_boy> if you're wondering tho. the two 2MT that were cut down are 78013 and 78028
19:53:18  <sim-al2> The locomotive in the first pic also has an extra dome between the steam(?) dome and the stack
19:53:40  <drac_boy> also one other thing I finally found an online copy of .. april 1912 river flooding, but umm well if the firebox door is still higher than the water then who is going complain about still keeping some service moving abit slowly?
19:54:54  <sim-al2> Assuming the bearing boxes don't flood too quckly, and the cylinder kept clear, there should be no problem until water hits the firebox metal...
19:55:44  <drac_boy> well crews usually only think its a problem if the water is getting to the cab floor .. but oil fired locomotives somehow have been known to literally run slight submerged...! (sealed with no doors, so go figure)
19:55:56  <drac_boy> crazy old days I guess heh
19:56:26  <sim-al2> Shock cooling the firebox seems like a bad idea, but the boiler would be even worse
19:57:14  <sim-al2> Not to mention, water doesn't really compress, and letting water flood the cylinders will end badly
19:58:08  <drac_boy> going a wee bit fast :)
19:58:56  <sim-al2> Hmm, I wonder how much traction you have at that point
19:59:09  <sim-al2> Water cooled brakes though!
20:00:14  <sim-al2> The bogie on the DE10 diesel is rather interesting to look at:
20:00:38  <drac_boy> well as most of the weight package is above the chassis (save for any low slung-between-drivers fireboxes which were a bit rare by then) so even at 15kph theres still some traction weight for a few good wagons
20:00:57  <sim-al2> It's not a C, but rather an AAA
20:02:00  <drac_boy> mm
20:02:21  <sim-al2> I don't think they will float much, but certainly that much water will hurt traction. Normally, the first set of wheels of a rail vehicle will vaporize/force the water off the rails
20:03:03  <sim-al2> Many American locomotives have a button to apply sand to only the leading bogie
20:04:30  <sim-al2> GE took the idea to the logical conclusion, and the High Tractive Effort option AC locomotives have little air nozzles mounted on the bogie that try to clean the rail before the first wheelset
20:05:08  <drac_boy> btw unrelated but I found one photo in recent magazine .. and you wouldn't guess the description ... a train hit a packed straight body truck leaving it all maligned but heres the thing "..after ten minutes the train then resumed its way like nothing happened, how long would it had taken today?"
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20:06:37  <sim-al2> I suppose legal concerns weren't really on the mind of the dispatcher
20:07:25  <drac_boy> oh yeah sim-a12 some of the express specific locomotives (especially the big NYC Niagara too) did have a separate water pipe between locomotive and tender to wash sand off the rails to lower the friction for the coaches following behind .. usually on uphill curves
20:08:28  <drac_boy> considering that these kind of locomotives usually could scoop water the fact of dumping water onto the ground for short times didn't seem as worrisome
20:09:23  <drac_boy> btw about the dispatcher I think its more like "we only got one line, lets just keep trains moving. the police can talk to the crew later"
20:10:35  <sim-al2> I'm sure large companies were much less legally adverse, but it's not like railroads didn't face lawsuits for accidents
20:10:38  <drac_boy> then again the old days had lot of people helping out as soon as an accident happened but now thanks to sue-happy lawyer world you don't even have these as much anymore
20:16:54  <drac_boy> (and of course no orange vests or hard hats for the final cleanup crews either)
20:17:29  <drac_boy> heres an uk one
20:18:14  <drac_boy> at least looks like they already cut out the ground power if that steam locomotive on the two coaches is a sign
20:20:27  <sim-al2> Considering that the guy is literally standing on the third rail
20:20:53  <sim-al2> I'm sure the wreckage shorted it out anyway
20:21:11  <sim-al2> If not, the crew of the train would use their grounding bar to di it
20:21:15  <sim-al2> *do it
20:21:47  <drac_boy> btw you remind me of a well-reviewed accident...
20:23:38  <drac_boy> claphill or something (I can't remember from memory now) .. one emu came to green signal but it suddenly turned red before he passed it so stopped shortly to contact dispatcher but for some reason a 2nd train following rammed into it .. power finally shut off just as a third train coming and driver was wondering about the loss of power till he then saw the accident and at a lower speed came to a stop safely away from the whol
20:24:17  <drac_boy> one of the signal ground wire was at fault ... due to the whole "contractor pass out to subcontractor" quality issues as I recall
20:25:11  <sim-al2> Yeah, there were apparently loose wires inside the box they hadn't been isolated, and were able to contact the new wires
20:30:22  <drac_boy> also another kind of 3-trains accident would be the one at harrow and wealdstone .. one express ran into rear of a platform-standing express .. and as bad luck would have it another express train from other direction on nearby track struck the fresh wreck
20:30:35  <drac_boy> basically one of the island platform was almost all smashed :-/
20:31:26  <sim-al2> Yeah, modern train radios are including the ability to automatically halt trains in an area around them. With CTC, the dispatcher could do that, but it would often take time
20:31:27  <drac_boy> only one more reason I recall that station is because one of the locomotive involved was an ex-turbine one
20:31:47  <drac_boy> (they rebuilt it to conventional piston setup but retained the "heavy-duty looking" trailing axle
20:33:17  <drac_boy> this is the as-built turbine and this is the conversion (if url works)
20:33:33  <drac_boy> you can see what I mean about that trailing frame looking more serious than on most other usual locomotives
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20:36:19  <sim-al2> Increased firebox size? I wonder why it was designed that way
20:37:19  <drac_boy> yeah good question, I don't really know a lot about the turbomotive (as its name really was..funny but good one)
20:38:12  <drac_boy> I do know that the PRR S2 carried a 6-8-6 layout for some reason .. big firebox on rear I can understand but I dunno why the front too (a 4-8-6 would had been ok too)
20:41:45  <drac_boy> oh and while we're talking about less usual things .. how about the fact that uk had what was basically a 4-2-2-2, it was actually basically a 4-pistons 4-4-2 .. kinda strange that they would have duplex single drivers as I recall it was noted that many engineers didn't like these locomotive
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20:54:03  <drac_boy> anyway this chat beside, what you doing? :)
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21:02:07  <sim-al2> Not much
21:04:33  <sim-al2> Duplex locomotives are rather odd, the seperate cylinders are supposed to reduce track forces, but the tradeoffs are pretty significant
21:05:01  <drac_boy> well this was probably the most oddest one .. a 4-2-2-2 basically 0_o
21:05:55  <drac_boy> but on the other hand PRR's nice attempt at 4-4-4-4 was a honest attempt but it was too rushed through any proper testings by oncoming diesel orders (no surprise that many engineers found it quite 'slippery')
21:06:43  <drac_boy> also other thing with that one was that modern metallurgy had made the siderods for 4-8-4's lighter so they had less track pounding problem .. a case of "trying to solve an nonexisting problem" eventually
21:07:29  <sim-al2> The advances in valvegear would have helped, except that conventional valvegear was cheaper
21:07:48  <drac_boy> still wondered what the real history behind the 4-6-4-2 (yep irregular duplex) semi-streamliner was tho
21:08:51  <drac_boy> heres a good photo of it
21:09:27  <sim-al2> I think it's actually a 4-6-4-4, the PRR Q1 class
21:09:42  <drac_boy> oh, ops didn't noticed I had the wrong numpad number till now :)
21:09:45  <drac_boy> yeah you're right :p
21:10:18  <sim-al2> Hmmm, apparently designed for freight service, but the rear cylinders had many issues because they were right next to the firebox
21:10:32  <sim-al2>
21:11:21  <drac_boy> btw I forgot which country it was but there was this one where the mallet actually had three axles of one diameter on the high pressure side and two axles of slight larger diameters on the low pressure side, something about trying to cure the sluggish performance of the LP drive
21:11:33  <drac_boy> it actually lasted for quite a while in service surprisingly
21:12:25  <drac_boy> yeah firebox and piston together doesn't always make a great idea .. even less with track gauge in question
21:12:30  <sim-al2> Hmmm, different wheel diameters? Might have interesting results in tighter curves
21:12:41  <drac_boy> yep .. LP and HP axles were different diameters
21:13:05  <drac_boy> btw about piston positions .. you remind me of a somewhat obstructive example (by nowaday that is) one sec...
21:15:04  <sim-al2> Oh, I thought you meant different wheel diameters on the left side vs the right side. As long as the mounting of the two sets of drivers compensated, I don't think there would be a problem
21:16:09  <drac_boy> hm I'm not sure where it could be (if it was ever online at all) but anyway .. as I recall it was a small 0-4-4-0 or 0-6-6-0 (as typical early mallets were) .. and well before superheaters existed ...
21:16:54  <drac_boy> for russia operation (or at least some other northern country in europe I forgot) ... the pistons were placed literally butt-to-butt right in the very middle (rather than the front truck having pistons mounted forward as was typical)
21:17:29  <drac_boy> the book editor wisely and probably correctly noted that it was a maintenance headache as you couldn't simply remove the piston covers to get to the cylinder bores :-/
21:18:31  <drac_boy> superheating removed the problem with temperature loss and so such the HP pistons could be placed up front without any performance degradation even if running in alaska or russia I imagine :)
21:18:48  <drac_boy> but this pre-superheat mallet was a rather odd one in my view
21:19:24  <drac_boy> the funny thing is I did find a different kind of 0-4-4-0 that at least left some space between the pistons
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21:22:39  <sim-al2> That's a rather interesting design
21:23:07  <drac_boy> still you know what I mean? the pistons were literally back to back with almost no gap ... what was going on anyway?
21:25:16  <sim-al2> I suppose they wanted the forward set as close to the boiler as possible, to reduce heat losses
21:25:55  <drac_boy> yeah, thankgod for superheaters later on ;)
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21:48:17  <sim-al2> It's interesting that many smaller locomotives lacked superheaters even to the end
21:48:44  <sim-al2> But I suppose power was not the concern, compared to ease of maintenance
21:57:09  <drac_boy> yeah, different kind of topic but still similar story still .. how about taking a GP15 and strip out its turbo if it still has one .. then otherwise simply keep it going in light yardshed duty? :)
21:58:20  <sim-al2> GP15's wouldn't have a turbo (except the GP15T, but the two customers for them would have wanted the turbo)
21:58:58  <sim-al2> GP20 and GP30 would, and would be great candidates for removing the thing
21:59:28  <drac_boy> well excuse me for not knowing the entire emd craps :P
21:59:29  <sim-al2> the turbo used on the 567 engines apparently was more problematic than the later designs
21:59:37  <drac_boy> I do know GP30 had that funny 50's style hood roof tho
21:59:40  <sim-al2> Yeah, the numbering system is absurd
22:00:07  <drac_boy> and GP60 was the last in term of 4-axle power for emd in usa afaik
22:00:26  <drac_boy> santa fe not surprisingly had a sizeable number of these for their hot trains on the long flat lines
22:00:37  <sim-al2> The GP15 is basically a lower power GP38, with a 12 cylinder engine
22:00:55  <drac_boy> bnsf did mix them with 6-axle powers but eventually yeah the GP60 was a bit past its limit by then
22:00:59  <sim-al2> The GP15T has the same 1500hp with an 8 cylinder turbo engine
22:01:37  <sim-al2> Apparently the lack of demand along with weight issues precluded further 4 axle designs of more power
22:02:18  <sim-al2> The commuter roads were happy with 3000hp at the time, and Amtrak went to GE for the specialized P40/P42 design
22:03:03  <sim-al2> The F125 is finally a new high power EMD 4 axle design, but with a Catapillar engine...
22:04:59  <drac_boy> actually heres the funny thing..
22:05:19  <drac_boy> there was really a F40PH but without the turbo .. not sure if it was ever sold to anyone or got stuck as a book-only thing that never came to be
22:06:03  <sim-al2> I wonder who would have bought that anyway, the turbo engine is more fuel efficient at higher power anyway
22:06:26  <sim-al2> There are some F40PH's pulling freight in Panama now
22:07:54  <sim-al2> Metrolink in SoCal bought 4 SD60's, with the plan to swap the 645 in 4 F40PHs with the 710 in the SD60s, but apparently they never got around to doing that
22:08:42  <sim-al2> Potentially would have created 3800hp F40's though 0.o
22:10:36  <drac_boy> heh :)
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22:27:02  <drac_boy> oh btw I have a small book about the Deltic and one of the early post-prototype test they did was to run a route with either both engine on as usual or only one on ... somehow not surprisingly the latter didn't have too much difficulty but it was noted that a bit less than half the hp was available due to generator load (train lights etca)  etc only across one engine instead of two
22:32:45  <drac_boy> and one somewhat comical problem was that the first batches of tests had been with a steam-era train on a simple timetable and when they were eventually assigned to normal schedules (heavier trains at higher average speeds) they suddenly started having many small reliability issues (including something to do with oil cooler for a while too) .. no surprise on that tho
22:34:43  <sim-al2> Those engines were run pretty hard, considering they were orginal boat engines
22:35:42  <drac_boy> yeah
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22:36:26  <sim-al2> Despite the similarity, there's a long history of ship engines not doing well in locomotives
22:36:31  <drac_boy> there is one other side of the comical things tho .. if a Deltic was failed and there was no other diesel locomotive .. well .. cue steam locomotive but by the time they got to king cross the poor fireman always had to go for a drink of a really strong pint
22:36:57  <drac_boy> when you think about it you kinda have to feel poor for the fireman, trying to keep the firebox a bit too hot due to the punishing schedule to keep
22:37:54  <sim-al2> Yeah, at least orginally on the LNER the tenders had a corridor to allow the crew to swap out without stopping the train
22:38:25  <drac_boy> I think I've seen that, requires tight fit men to fit through it
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22:44:59  <drac_boy> as for ship engines...that sometimes makes me think of this rare one-off that could had been but wasn't
22:45:14  <drac_boy> funny how the turret looks like one you would find on a tugboat .. you know :)
22:45:24  <drac_boy> and yep it was a marine V8 behind the cab section
22:45:47  <sim-al2> Sulzer had some problems too, but they were able to eventually solve a number of them
22:46:15  <sim-al2> There are marine versions of the GE and EMD engines though
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23:02:49  <Flygon> I was away
23:03:21  * drac_boy wonders if I should pound flygon with an aussie diesel? :P
23:03:29  <drac_boy> heh just being silly ;)
23:03:42  <Flygon> Err
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23:16:25  <drac_boy> anyway going off for now, have fun
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