Log for #openttd on 24th August 2016:
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09:07:17  <Wolf01> o/
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09:15:30  <Wolf01> o/
09:15:59  <andythenorth_> Luxury train carriages, improved payment rate, reduced capacity...
09:16:10  <andythenorth_> BAD FEATURE?
09:16:44  <Wolf01> Nah, seems good
09:17:37  <Wolf01> NotRoadTypes didn't let me have a good sleep
09:17:44  <Wolf01> But I have more ideas
09:18:22  <andythenorth_> :)
09:18:27  <V453000> andythenorth_: it makes no sense to use less capacity for more profit, but sure :D
09:18:34  <V453000>  #gameizbroken
09:18:41  <V453000>  #moneymattersnot
09:19:29  <andythenorth_> V seems like Doing It Just Because I Could
09:19:37  <andythenorth_> No eye candy benefit
09:19:46  <andythenorth_> No gameplay rationale
09:21:29  <andythenorth_> Wolf01 so...ideas? o_O
09:21:44  <V453000> that way you will end up hating it in 6 months
09:21:46  <Wolf01> Ideas on how to start patching
09:22:13  <andythenorth_> V I am hoping someone says 'no' :p
09:22:25  <Wolf01> Also, ideas on reverting half of the catenary
09:22:34  <andythenorth_> Although the idea is valid for ships I think
09:23:30  <Wolf01> Still no ideas on how to implement subtypes
09:24:21  <V453000> well yeah ships are senseless no matter what you do ;P
09:24:30  <V453000> WETRail is all i'm sayin
09:24:33  <andythenorth_> Wolf01 alberth gave me an enum that could be unpacked to fibd the subtypes, do you mean at that level, or more generally? :)
09:24:47  <Wolf01> More generally
09:25:16  <andythenorth_> V WETRail is a protest vote not a solution :D
09:26:20  <V453000> well it's the best solution we have so far :P
09:27:52  <andythenorth_> Bah maybe ships need a patch
09:28:10  <andythenorth_> What would it do?
09:28:55  <V453000> remove them? :>
09:29:19  <andythenorth_> Plausible
09:29:27  <V453000> for a start, colliding with each other would be necessary, which would probably make the pathfinder ultra wtf on CPU
09:29:51  <V453000> because that's one of the reasons why many of the things don't matter with them
09:30:11  <V453000> but other than that it's pretty hard to make them interesting
09:30:20  <Wolf01> Remove ships and make space for more stuff
09:30:29  <andythenorth_> Airplanes have same problem?
09:30:39  <V453000> yeah but airports have capacity limit
09:30:53  <V453000> for aircraft I always thought it is similar to ships, but there is the option of making something like modular airports
09:30:59  <V453000> maybe making modular docks would be the thing
09:31:03  <andythenorth_> I think colliding ships is wtf
09:31:13  <andythenorth_> Docks are the problem
09:31:14  <V453000> you know, unloading area, loading area, waiting area
09:31:15  <V453000> or something
09:31:22  <V453000> with cranes and shit, you name it
09:31:52  <argoneus> good morning train friends
09:32:03  <V453000> ship friends *
09:32:09  <andythenorth_> Seas need weather
09:32:14  <V453000> haha
09:32:14  <argoneus> no
09:32:17  <V453000> kraken approachez
09:32:18  <Wolf01> Colliding ships adds more thinking when making routes, specially with canals
09:32:21  <argoneus> ship acquaintances
09:32:31  <V453000> I think modular docks would be right way to go
09:32:31  <andythenorth_> Small ships get sunk by storms
09:32:39  <andythenorth_> +lots
09:33:03  <andythenorth_> But still, does nothing to differentiate types?
09:33:19  <V453000> well it could start making a difference
09:33:21  <andythenorth_> Ha ha ShipDockTypes?
09:33:28  <V453000> if the dock setup is really complex
09:33:39  <V453000> simple to understand but hard to mASSter
09:33:41  <andythenorth_> we have roadstop types
09:34:07  <Wolf01> Cruise ships, you'll get paid on start and then you can forget it
09:34:11  <andythenorth_> pax ships have to go to pax dock
09:34:25  <andythenorth_> Cargo ships to cargo dock
09:34:54  <V453000> it probably doesn't fit into openttd
09:34:58  <andythenorth_> game is about routes yes/no?
09:35:03  <V453000> could have shit like waves shouldn't be able to get into dock etc
09:35:09  <V453000> storm-proof docks
09:35:15  <V453000> slug invasion proof docks
09:35:18  <andythenorth_> and crime of ships is that routes have no challenge
09:35:26  <andythenorth_> CRIME
09:35:33  <V453000> well it doesn'y have to be about routes
09:35:37  <V453000> trains are
09:35:41  <V453000> doesn't mean everything should
09:35:49  <Wolf01> Game is about making money, but singe you can make a shitload of money with just 1 aircraft, the game is pointless, at least add complexity to the puzzle part
09:35:52  <Wolf01> *since
09:36:01  <V453000> aircraft and ships are about nothing then
09:36:04  <andythenorth_> Yeah true...but it is about routes anyway V
09:36:09  <V453000> making them about airport/station is fine
09:36:26  <andythenorth_> Coulda woulda shoulda, but it's a routing game :p
09:36:35  <Wolf01> Yes, and the route should be fun, not just a traight line
09:36:40  <Wolf01> *straight
09:36:50  <V453000> XD
09:36:51  <Wolf01> WTF is with my fingers today?
09:37:05  <andythenorth_> only complexity to ships is bouys, and that is just tedious yak shaving
09:37:21  <Wolf01> +1
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09:37:37  <Wolf01> Automatic buoys assignment?
09:37:38  <andythenorth_> infinite capacity per tile, no other transport type has that in ottd
09:37:53  <V453000> remoov shitz
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09:38:03  <andythenorth_> Limiting docks forces ships to take up more tiles
09:38:16  <andythenorth_> also eye candy
09:38:18  <V453000> well mainly it puts them into non-infinite shit
09:38:23  <V453000> and eye candy docks are amazing
09:38:48  <andythenorth_> ok we just need to implement the fucker then
09:39:10  <Wolf01> I would like also one ship per lock, and removing the "sliding locks" which is nonsense
09:39:16  <andythenorth_> But all eye candy tiles are in rail station grfs :(
09:39:21  <V453000> just make 1 ship max at 1 dock at a time
09:39:25  <V453000> don't need to make ships not overlap
09:39:26  <andythenorth_> Locks are stupid
09:39:37  <V453000> grfs -> base shit ? :P
09:39:44  <andythenorth_> I am going to patch locks to be 2 tiles
09:40:04  <andythenorth_> And they need some kind of speed penalty or wait time or such
09:40:13  <Wolf01> +1
09:40:22  <V453000> syck
09:40:41  <peter1138> i had a patch for that...
09:40:43  <peter1138> not quite
09:40:49  <andythenorth_> yair :)
09:40:55  <andythenorth_> CanalTypes?
09:41:10  <andythenorth_> 7mph, 9mph, 15mph :p
09:41:17  <Wolf01> Ships need to be nerfed badly and at the same time made more pleasant to play with
09:41:30  <V453000> fuck nerfing
09:41:31  * andythenorth_ trolling about CanalTypes
09:41:33  <V453000> just need more mechanics
09:41:50  <andythenorth_> one ship per time in locks?
09:42:12  <andythenorth_> I spent 2 boring hours on the hydrofoil in Vienna waiting for lock
09:42:37  <Wolf01> And ship elevators
09:42:49  <V453000> one ship per entity in general makes sense
09:42:53  <V453000> be it a dock or a lock
09:42:58  <Wolf01> Yes
09:43:05  <V453000> rhyme the fuck out of this bitch
09:43:11  <andythenorth_> problem of locks/canals is, I just lower land to sea level always
09:43:26  <andythenorth_> Because reasons
09:44:18  <andythenorth_> LockTypes? :p
09:44:40  <V453000> WETLocks?
09:45:08  <andythenorth_> Hmm game could auto-bouy when adding orders, pathfinder could figure it out
09:45:21  <andythenorth_> Bouy would have to exist already
09:45:24  <V453000> would be a nice thing
09:45:31  <V453000> certainly much less annoying
09:45:42  <Wolf01> That what I said before
09:45:57  <andythenorth_> :D
09:46:17  <V453000> idea stolen
09:46:18  <andythenorth_> Might sometimea have stupid results depending on location of bouy
09:46:21  <V453000> max profit
09:46:23  <andythenorth_> But eh
09:46:42  <V453000> it's not like ships currently don't have stupid results
09:46:59  <Wolf01> We also need water levels, with huge ships not being able to travel on shallow water
09:46:59  <andythenorth_> Bouys could maintain a linkgraph of reachable docks
09:47:18  <andythenorth_> Then ship just routes to bouy
09:47:37  * andythenorth_ wavey hands
09:47:56  <andythenorth_> Docks could cache routes to other docks :p
09:48:08  <Wolf01> <-
09:50:05  <Wolf01> Cached routes will be a good idea, maybe they'll need to be cleared once in a while if the terrain/canals change
09:50:35  * andythenorth_ looking at deep water
09:52:19  <andythenorth_> Dunno about deep water
09:52:54  <andythenorth_> Might be like MHL, sounds good, looks good, but zero gameplay effect?
09:53:28  <Wolf01> MAke aircrafts avoid mountains, so Samu will be more happy
09:56:19  <Wolf01> Btw with MHL naturally occurring steep slopes would be a good idea, make the cliffs more eyecandy and tries to avoid lowering an entire row up to the top if you are lowering a tile on the mountain base
09:58:02  * andythenorth_ back to ship set ideas
09:59:00  <andythenorth_> Not sure whether to keep 'utility ships' (refit pax or freight), or ditch them
09:59:51  <andythenorth_> Road Hog does not have this - RVs can't due to stations
10:00:20  <andythenorth_> Iron Horse has it for specific cases of small trains for small routes
10:00:41  <andythenorth_> Otherwise not
10:00:59  <andythenorth_> Pikka's planes all do it
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10:03:03  <andythenorth_> It makes buy menu shorter, but if you run pax mail food to small town, all ships will be same
10:03:39  <andythenorth_> Is realism kind of, except irl it would be one ship carrying all cargos at once
10:04:42  <Wolf01> Make only goods ships
10:04:57  <Wolf01> And reroute every cargo to goods
10:05:29  <Wolf01> Except oil tankers
10:06:34  <Wolf01> It would be good having shore industries which need to be built near roads which produce vehicles, so we could have ferries
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10:11:19  <andythenorth_> Which is worse, long buy menu, or monoculture of vehicles in-game?
10:11:38  <Wolf01> Both
10:11:42  <Samu> hi
10:11:50  <Wolf01> (implementation detail: uses 4 bits each, uses 8 bits free in m8) <- So m8 is completely free or there's an offset?
10:12:31  <Wolf01> struct TileExtended {
10:12:31  <Wolf01> 	byte m6; ///< General purpose
10:12:31  <Wolf01> 	byte m7; ///< Primarily used for newgrf support
10:12:31  <Wolf01> };
10:12:35  <Wolf01> I think is free...
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10:13:03  <Samu> is there a setting to change the max distance between 2 docks for ship orders?
10:13:17  <Samu> for YAPF, that is
10:13:54  <Samu> ais don't like 128 tiles distance to be the limit
10:14:05  <andythenorth_> Wolf01 I can't check on my phone, but iirc there was a block of spare bits ;)
10:14:07  <Samu> i see ships with single orders
10:14:27  <andythenorth_> AI can't build bouys reliably?
10:14:36  <Samu> they could
10:14:42  <Samu> but some ais are not prepared
10:14:57  <Samu> i guess they were tested under NPF
10:15:04  <Samu> NPF allows unlimited range
10:15:19  <Samu> but NPF has some other problems though
10:19:11  <Wolf01> Also, if I understood it well, the 4 extended bits for sub road types are the features?
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10:20:05  <Wolf01> Or they are just the index of the sub road type?
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10:28:16  <andythenorth_> They would index to labels (I assume)
10:28:32  <andythenorth_> The type would define the features via newgrf
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10:30:28  <Samu> hmm, from my understanding, reading the log
10:30:44  <Samu> trans wants to transport passengers by ship from Wuwood to Wuwood
10:30:53  <Samu> the city is quite big, but it only uses 1 dock
10:30:59  <Samu> :(
10:31:11  <Samu> seems to be an AI problem, not a YAPF problem
10:31:27  <Samu> it only has 1 dock total
10:31:48  <Samu> i also see a mention to Mentwood as another possible destination, but I see no dock near Mentwood
10:32:16  <Samu> Mentwood is close to Wuwood, maybe the AI intended to make a connection between Wuwood and Mentwood, not Wuwood and Wuwood
10:32:38  <Samu> I dunno, log isn't clear enough
10:32:50  <Samu> I've already tried YAPF and NPF, it fails on both cases
10:34:03  <Samu> otviai, on the other hand
10:34:10  <Samu> benefits greatly with npf
10:40:39  <peter1138> multistop docks!
10:40:41  <peter1138> i had a patch for that...
10:42:51  * Wolf01 googles "how to implement this stuff I'm working on"
10:45:02  <andythenorth_> Multistop newgrf docks? Peter1138 :p
10:47:57  <Samu> from my previous test:
10:48:43  <Samu> terron, otvi, wmdot, nonocab, dictatorai benefit better from NPF than YAPF
10:49:14  <Samu> nocab and trans benefit better from YAPF than NPF
10:49:27  <Samu> hmm
10:50:08  <Samu> dictatorai is difficult to judge
10:50:15  <Samu> could do well on either NPF and YAPF
10:51:02  <Samu> nocab and nonocab are also withing margin of error
10:51:18  <Samu> nocab and nonocab are also within* margin of error
10:51:52  <Samu> maybe not nocab
10:52:05  <Samu> nocab appears to have a better advantage later game with YAPF
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10:53:32  <Samu> terron, otvi, wmdot seem to prefer NPF clearly
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10:54:16  <Samu> nocab seem to have a late game advantage with YAPF clearly
10:54:27  <Samu> I guess overall NPF is preferible for AIs
10:58:20  <Samu> trans appears to benefit better with YAPF
10:58:31  <Samu> interesting... must test this further
10:59:41  <Samu> trans problem is that it generates a ton of lost ships
11:00:02  <Samu> and NPF is prone to having lost ships
11:00:08  <Samu> same as original
11:00:53  <Samu> YAPF seems better on avoiding lost ships, but there's the limitation of 128 tiles max distance which some ais can't cope well
11:04:19  <Wolf01> ShowBuildRoadToolbar(RoadType roadtype) <- I need to pass a sub road type too, or change the RoadType to the SubRoadType and then get the RoadType from that, but I don't know how to define SubRoadType as it should be handled by the newgrfs (I could put there the current ones)
11:05:37  <Wolf01> How does it work for rails?
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11:30:32  <Samu> noob question, i'm trying to fix something on WMDot, i want to have it do unload and leave empty in one of its vehicle orders
11:30:44  <Samu> AIOrder.AppendOrder(MyVehicle, DockLocation, AIOrder.OF_NONE);
11:30:56  <Samu> it's AIOrder.????
11:31:02  <Samu> what do I change it to?
11:37:00  <Samu> gonna try OF_NO_LOAD 
11:37:04  <Samu> brb
11:49:56  <Samu> YES, it werks!
11:57:30  <Wolf01> ROTF_CATENARY <- I would add a L
12:00:55  <Samu> who's an expert on orders?
12:01:20  <Samu> what's the difference between No loading and unload and leave empty?
12:01:39  <Samu> i think i know, but
12:01:52  <Wolf01> Unload forces the unload even if the station does not accept the cargo
12:02:06  <Samu> I see
12:02:14  <Samu> from an AI standpoint, what would be better?
12:02:35  <Wolf01> Depends on the situation
12:03:00  <Samu> i'm unsure what WmDOT does when the oil refinery disappears
12:03:14  <Samu> i guess unload and leave empty would be better
12:03:50  <Samu> gonna try magic bulldozer the refinery
12:05:34  <Wolf01> You just move the problem to another place
12:05:43  <Wolf01> May be even worse
12:06:09  <Samu> No Load is bad, he keeps adding ships
12:06:14  <Samu> must try unload and leave empty
12:06:21  <Samu> how would I do that?
12:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the subtype is an index into an array, and the array member is filled with data from the newgrf (or marked invalid)
12:07:06  <Samu>
12:07:09  <Samu> halp
12:07:22  <Samu> AIOrder.AppendOrder(MyVehicle, DockLocation, AIOrder.OF_???????);
12:07:52  <Wolf01> Samu, you should check if vehicles return loaded when they are supposed to return empty
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12:08:18  <Samu> the way the ai works, it keeps adding ships because of the amount of cargo waiting at the oild rig
12:08:35  <Wolf01> The AI is borked
12:08:46  <Samu> if I force unload, he won't add that many ships
12:09:00  <Samu> unless oil rig increases prodcution
12:09:00  <Wolf01> Not the right fix
12:09:23  <Wolf01> You should change the unload station if possible instead of wasting oil
12:09:41  <Samu> well, i am not gonna dwelve into his code, just wanted an easy fix
12:10:20  <Wolf01> Like breaking your other leg to not feel pain in the first one
12:10:26  <Samu> hehe
12:10:48  <Samu> i suppose the AI doesn't expect oil refineries to disappear
12:10:53  <Samu> I'm unsure
12:11:05  <Samu> magic bulldozer isn't the same as saying refinery announced closure
12:11:10  <Wolf01> Eddi, could you guide me a bit?
12:11:27  <Samu> maybe the ai does handle refinery closure
12:11:32  <Samu> but not magic bulldozer
12:11:40  <Samu> don't feel like investigating
12:12:15  <Wolf01> Need more debugging tool, like "force industry closure"
12:12:29  <Samu> ugh, maybe i should
12:14:15  <Wolf01> Eddi, I'm looking at rail.h to get inspiration, I could put in the new road.h some stuff to help the subtypes
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12:16:20  <Samu> 			case AIEvent.ET_INDUSTRY_CLOSE: 				Log.Note("Nice event and all, but I have no idea what to do about it...", 4);
12:16:29  <Samu> looks like wmdot doesn't care
12:17:23  <Samu> that means... unload and leave empty is the lesser problem for a quick fix, yet not the ideal solution
12:18:17  <Wolf01> It should shut downs the route
12:18:26  <Wolf01> This is the easiest fix
12:19:00  <Wolf01> At least if you don't want to lose money
12:19:19  <Samu> how would I code that? my skills are bad
12:19:33  <Samu> i don't even know how to put a unload and leave empty order
12:19:54  <Wolf01> Read docs?
12:20:14  <Samu> i managed to do a no load order though, but unload and leave empty seems to be a mix of NO_LOAD and UNLOAD
12:20:23  <Samu> added together
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12:28:58  <Samu> the index UNLOAD does not exist :(
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12:30:19  <Samu> oh, right
12:30:22  <Samu> OF_UNLOAD, not UNLOAD
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12:31:16  <Samu> unload and take cargo.... bah :(
12:31:23  <Samu> must be unload and leave empty
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12:34:41  <Samu> i can't manage to do it, grrr
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12:36:25  <Samu> must find an AI that already does unload and leave empty
12:36:34  <Samu> copy paste skills
12:42:17  <Samu> aha
12:42:20  <Samu> 			AIOrder.AppendOrder(vehicleID, roadList[0].tile, AIOrder.OF_UNLOAD | AIOrder.OF_NO_LOAD);
12:42:29  <Samu> let's try
12:43:38  <Samu> YES, i did it :)
12:46:40  <Samu>
12:46:52  <Samu> who's MinchinWeb? does he post on this channel?
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13:06:09  <Alkel_U3> hm, roadtypes... will ice roads have a bonus in curves and corners? :-)
13:08:33  <Wolf01> Sure
13:09:31  <Alkel_U3> also 5-tile stopping distance
13:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: max_te is a vehicle's responsibility
13:12:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: sorry, i don't have any of the details
13:13:04  <Wolf01> So, I made up a definition for the original roadtypes, I'll have to move the sprite definition too, but I think it could be done later
13:13:37  <Wolf01> Now I only need to fill the _roadtypes[] array
13:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that's easy: {default, invalid, invalid, invalid, ...}
13:14:43  <Wolf01> The problem is where... rail seem to do it in newgrf
13:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you could just make a dummy function that gets replaced once you do newgrf stuff
13:15:39  <Wolf01> Yes, still no clue where to call it
13:15:44  <Eddi|zuHause> or you could already build in the newgrf stub
13:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> somewere in the new game code
13:16:13  <Alkel_U3> Eddi|zuHause: well, I wasn't being too serious, but it could be lowered on snowy roads in arctic climate... unless that's a bad feature, of course :-)
13:16:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: i'm just saying, vehicles that know about roadtypes could do it, but others can not.
13:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the roadtype itself has no influence on this
13:17:19  <Alkel_U3> ah, I see
13:17:49  <Alkel_U3> I didn't look at that that way
13:20:19  <Wolf01> It will be possible to set up a max speed for RoadTypes
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14:21:17  <supermop> good morning
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14:34:13  <Wolf01> Nice, sorting the RoadTypes made Tramway first choice
14:34:34  <Wolf01> Not a problem, because I'm still using the old gui
14:36:44  <V453000> TRAMZ > ALL
14:36:49  <V453000> get rekt
14:37:56  <Wolf01> Still no clue on how to add more hardcoded roadtypes of type 'TRAM'
14:38:39  <Wolf01> The function in newgrf.cpp is weird enough to make me desist
14:38:46  <V453000> Yo program, please add dem TRAM rodetypoz. Thanks, yours sincerely fuck you computer.
14:38:49  <V453000> ez
14:38:56  <Wolf01> :D
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14:41:44  <Samu> i'm experimenting wmdot with my fix on the same test conditions i used before
14:41:53  <Samu> let's see if there's a noticeable difference
14:41:56  <Wolf01> Labels need to be exactly 4 chars?
14:42:27  <Wolf01> Or could I use "LTRAIL" and "ELTRAIL" instead of "TRAM"?
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14:46:32  * andythenorth ponders
14:47:00  <andythenorth> 1. Restrict ships to only visit compatible docks
14:47:15  <andythenorth> 2. Extend that to arbitrary types, newgrf defined
14:48:09  <andythenorth> 3. Limit docks to n ship stops, and make ships wait somewhere nearby
14:48:22  <andythenorth> 4. Permit multiple docks per station
14:48:48  <andythenorth> 5. Change docks to single tile, and allow building on coast or flat land
14:49:14  <andythenorth> 6. Enable arbitrary dock graphics per type, newgrf defined
14:49:20  <andythenorth> 7. Profit
14:49:46  <andythenorth> Peter1138 where did ships wait for MultiDocks?
14:49:51  <Alkel_U3> also make ships dock broadside when it's already being fiddled with, perhaps
14:50:11  <Wolf01> Mmmh, nothing changed in game, trying now to effectively call the function
14:51:30  <Samu> hey andythenorth, can you improve dock placement checks?
14:51:40  <Wolf01> Need to bypass the GrfSpecFeature
14:51:49  <Samu> to avoid ship blocking when placing docks
14:52:24  <Samu> only water around is not an enough check
14:53:21  <Samu> this is only to help ais, because humans won't place docks purposedly to block ships, but ais may do it by accident
14:53:59  <andythenorth> Wolf01 AIUI there is an enum which correspons to the railtypes, but I don't know how that connects to a newgrf define data structure further
14:54:20  <andythenorth> Bad typing on tablet :|
14:54:52  <andythenorth> There must be some railtype class or something
14:54:52  <Samu> erm, let me screenshot an example
14:55:17  <Wolf01> Yes I already made roadtype
14:57:04  * Wolf01 crosses fingers
14:57:18  <Wolf01> Something exploded
14:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: labels are just an integer, that they translate to exactly 4 characters is just a convention
14:57:40  <Eddi|zuHause> they can't be more than 4 characters, though
14:59:09  <andythenorth> They map directly to the bits in the map, no?
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14:59:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no
14:59:42  <Samu> andythenorth: - ships are blocked
14:59:58  <Samu> ship 1 is blocked because as the ship was arriving at the dock, a ship depot was placed in front of it
15:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the map has 4 bits for (rail)type, the label is 32 bit
15:00:09  <Wolf01> Bah, linker doesn't resolve a function call, removing that, useless
15:00:31  <Wolf01> Ok, the game don't explode
15:00:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: did you add the file to sources.lst and then run projects/generate?
15:00:43  <Wolf01> Yes
15:00:48  <Samu> ship 2 is blocked because the dock to the right was placed when the ship was docking at ship 1 when coming to it from NE-NW direction
15:00:59  <Samu> oops typo
15:01:10  <Samu> ship 2 is blocked because the dock to the right was placed when the ship was docking at the dock to the left when coming to it from NE-NW direction
15:01:23  <andythenorth> Not sure that's related :)
15:02:02  <Samu> when it tries go to the way back, NW-NE, it's blocked by the dock to the right
15:02:40  <andythenorth> Players need to build in better locations? o_O
15:02:51  <Samu> well, players don't have a problem with that
15:02:58  <Samu> ais do have problems
15:03:08  <Samu> they can't easily fix it
15:04:05  <andythenorth> it's an issue, but it doesn't help me design a ship newgrf :)
15:04:25  <andythenorth> I am not an ottd dev, so I can't fix the placement problem
15:07:33  <andythenorth> Fast ships: luxury (payment bonus) or uncomfortable (payment penalty)?
15:08:01  <andythenorth> RL is no guide here
15:08:39  <Wolf01> Oh really, I'm an idiot, I never implemented the function
15:08:50  <V453000> andythenorth: XD
15:08:53  <V453000> usually luxury
15:09:11  <V453000> real life rekt
15:09:11  <andythenorth> Hovercraft can be quite variable
15:09:20  <V453000> then make it hovercat or rubberduck
15:09:20  <V453000> GG
15:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: scrap fast ships, all ships the same speed.
15:10:18  <andythenorth> I tried that, I think it's a bit limiting on types
15:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> in a comparison between slow and fast, fast always wins, so might just as well scrap all slow ships then
15:10:51  <andythenorth> it means by 1970 or so everything is hovercraft or hydrofoil
15:14:17  <andythenorth> Also, does the argument hold? Why build metro trains instead of 200mph maglev? o_O
15:16:44  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v planetmaker
15:16:44  *** ChanServ changes topic to "1.6.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | if this channel is really spammy"
15:16:44  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Belugas
15:16:44  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v orudge
15:16:49  <Alkel_U3> those can have slow acceleration and loading times
15:18:07  <andythenorth> Ship acceleration :p
15:23:09  <Samu> i'm opening a 1 TB log file... zzzzz
15:23:44  <Samu> 952 MB (998.860.730 bytes)
15:23:52  <Samu> not 1 TB, but close
15:24:20  <Wolf01> Ekranoplanes, ships that moves at aircraft speed
15:25:34  <Wolf01> andythenorth:!AgUFeOGLNNfVhYcE-9rgJMb4PMn6-w
15:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that the game doesn't model a lot of things that could make shipsinteresting/diverse/useful
15:26:16  <Wolf01> I don't know if ipad let you open the diff to see
15:30:10  <Samu> teshinet crashed again
15:30:33  <Samu> always the same error
15:33:45  <andythenorth> Yeah no diff on ipad
15:33:57  <peter1138> hi
15:34:29  <Samu> hi
15:34:36  <andythenorth> Eddi assume game *did* offer something (anything), what classes of pax ship would then be interesting to have in game?
15:34:51  <Samu> yate
15:35:32  <Samu> carries tourists, move super slow, high running costs, hmm... but tourists are super rich and pay a lot
15:35:53  <Samu> lel
15:38:07  <Eddi|zuHause> well, let's start with something easy: ferry (high loading speed, fast cargo decay) vs. cruise ship (low loading speed, slow cargo decay)
15:38:30  <supermop> articulated
15:38:55  <andythenorth> Trade station dwell time against travel time
15:39:10  <supermop> ro-ro ferry can carry goods or mail in addition to passengers, watertaxi carries only passengers
15:39:20  <andythenorth> Ferries are for dense cities, like metro
15:39:58  <supermop> water taxi is like metro, big ferry is like regional rail, ocean liners are like inter-city
15:40:02  <supermop> but more so
15:40:26  <andythenorth> But the load time would have to be substantially different
15:41:00  <Alkel_U3> separately refittable cargo holds would be awesome, but that's certainly beyond the scope of this
15:41:25  <supermop> i mean boats should load slower than trains anyway to ofset the infinite capacity of a canal
15:42:02  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, i wouldn't vary the travel speed too much
15:42:04  <supermop> that or use that old patch that spaces ot ships and the only pass through one another at low speed
15:42:20  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: yeah
15:42:30  <andythenorth> Eddi not varying travel speeds precludes too many types imo
15:42:40  <andythenorth> Maybe
15:42:46  <supermop> most modern single hull ships go the same speed, gradually increasing with size
15:43:12  <andythenorth> No hovercraft, no hydrofoils
15:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:43:24  <andythenorth> No jet ferry
15:43:25  <supermop> nuclear icebreakers or supercarriers would be faster in open water than a little motorboat
15:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> can live without those
15:43:37  <supermop> but not by much
15:44:15  <supermop> newest supercarriers go maybe 40 knots, most small ships are close to that
15:44:29  <andythenorth> Eddi, ships limited to 25mph?
15:44:34  <supermop> need a catamaran to go faster
15:45:35  <andythenorth> Nerfed ships :)
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15:50:57  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
15:51:05  <Alberth> hi hi
15:51:17  <Wolf01> o/
15:53:03  <Wolf01> Load trains on ships and road vehicles on trains
15:55:13  <Alberth> and ships on RVs
15:55:46  <Samu> strange, wmdot does fine till the year 2010, then something strange happens
15:56:04  <Samu> sells most ships, keeps only a few, i don't understand
15:56:43  <Samu> sold like 95% of his total
15:56:45  <Samu> :(
15:57:19  <Samu> seems to be related to old model expiration
15:57:36  <Samu> he can't clone old model anymore by the year 2010
15:57:41  <Samu> could it be that?
15:58:12  <Samu> but old model expires by year 1990, not 2010, hmm must investigate better
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16:05:19  <Samu> question, when did you introduce that thing that doesn't put cargo on stations after a year or so without having a vehicle loading?
16:05:29  <Samu> that kinda ruined wmdot
16:05:45  <Samu> he's always evaluating waiting cargo, but it's always 0 now
16:06:21  <Samu> he got routes with 0 ships :o
16:06:33  <Samu> valid routes, but no ships
16:07:35  <Samu> i guess it would be updating the routes to the new model should there be cargo waiting
16:13:29  <Samu> his route manager is buggy, he says route 47, 48 needs more ships, but it's actually adding them to route 57
16:15:04  <Samu> there is no route 57 group
16:15:11  <Samu> it's being added to route 56
16:15:36  <andythenorth> Biab
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16:15:58  <Samu> he's using the ship depot close to route 48 to duplicate ships for route 57 which doesn't have a group
16:16:14  <Samu> that means, ships have to cross half the map to reach destination
16:16:23  <Samu> :(
16:16:36  <Samu> they got to cross about 1000 tiles distance
16:17:30  <Samu> expecting bankrupt at some point
16:17:45  <Samu> he's wasting all his money on ships crossing 1000 tiles, based on waiting cargo
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16:18:40  <Samu> he got £20M in the bank to burn
16:18:48  <Samu> lel
16:18:58  <Samu> seems the problem only occurs past year 2010
16:19:28  <Samu> let me look at previous screenshots of this problem
16:19:48  <Samu> yeap, 2041
16:19:51  <Samu> that's past 2010
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16:35:37  <Samu> calculate distance going from coordinates 1012,397 to 11,343
16:36:49  <Samu> (1012-11)+(397-343)
16:37:17  <Samu> 1055 tiles
16:38:18  <Samu> every 10 tiles, wmdot builds 2 ships
16:39:43  <Samu> there's obstacles in the way, ships actually cross more than 1055 tiles
16:39:48  <Samu> :(
16:39:58  <Samu> poor wmdot
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16:45:08  <Alberth> @calc 1.4*(397-343)+(1012-11)
16:45:08  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 1076.6
16:45:23  <Alberth> hmm, no
16:45:41  <Alberth> @calc 1.4*(397-343)+(1012-11)-(397-343)
16:45:41  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 1022.6
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16:46:33  <Samu> omg i got this all wrong
16:47:15  <Samu> there's route 48 and 49, essentially they got the same orders
16:47:35  <Samu> when the route manager investigates for waiting cargo
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16:48:02  <Samu> it says route 47 and 48, but 48 and 49 have the so 1300 oil waiting at the oil rig
16:48:24  <Samu> the depot of choice is of that for route 48
16:48:46  <Samu> that depot is near that oil rig
16:48:56  <Samu> but... the ships get the wrong orders
16:49:20  <Samu> they get orders that tells them to go to the wrong oil rig
16:49:29  <Samu> making them traverse half the world
16:49:36  <Samu> that wrong oil rig is of route 56
16:49:46  <Samu> and it does not have 1300 oil waiting
16:49:55  <Samu> it's actually fully saturated
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16:51:02  <Samu> my observations are wrong
16:51:40  <andythenorth> So pax-only ships, or universal?
16:51:57  <Samu> darn, i must correct the post, brb
16:52:06  <andythenorth> If universal, then all other ship types are related to pax
16:52:21  <andythenorth> Which is...harder :p
16:53:23  <Alberth> pax ships have different graphics, don't they?
16:53:39  <andythenorth> Depends
16:53:52  <andythenorth> Ferries, for example, are pretty universal
16:53:55  <Alberth> ferry-ish ?
16:54:07  <Alberth> hmm, true
16:54:34  <andythenorth> RL keeps intervening in a neat and tidy set design
16:54:41  <andythenorth> Silly RL
16:56:14  <Wolf01> Mmmh I need a good steam locomotives video I've not yet seen
16:56:56  * andythenorth needs dedicated ferry dock
16:57:12  <andythenorth> (see logs)
16:57:19  <andythenorth> NotDockTypes
16:57:23  <Nitrodev> should i really go as the tutorial on the wiki suggests
16:57:28  <andythenorth> No
16:57:36  <andythenorth> Whatever it says :)
16:57:49  <Nitrodev> okay then
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16:59:09  <andythenorth> Tutorial is fine, but just skims the surface ;)
16:59:16  * andythenorth just read it
16:59:57  <Nitrodev> well, as i just downloaded the game, and all i have is a single bus going between two stations, i kinda need the start up
17:00:54  <Alberth> it's useful if you never played the game
17:02:09  <andythenorth> Hmm
17:02:26  <Nitrodev> what andythenorth?
17:02:42  <andythenorth> So  Eddi|zuHause the solution is to level all pax ship speeds for any given year?
17:02:54  <andythenorth> But they could all be 'fast'?
17:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, pretty much
17:03:05  <Wolf01> pfffff it already crashed
17:03:06  <andythenorth> The actual value is atbitrary
17:03:07  *** supermop__ has joined #openttd
17:03:21  <andythenorth> Arbitrary*
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17:05:09  <andythenorth> If there was a hard limit on ship sprite sizes, designing would be much easier :p
17:05:20  <andythenorth> More constraints would help
17:05:53  <andythenorth> But self-imposed constraint on number of ships did mot work :x
17:05:58  <supermop__> Wolf01: man with movie camera
17:06:11  <supermop__> old soviet film from 20s
17:06:54  *** supermop has quit IRC
17:08:20  <supermop__> has (for the time) ground break train shots
17:08:51  <Samu>
17:11:30  <Nitrodev> sigh, still the train left the coal station without any coal
17:15:11  <Alberth> no set "full load" ?
17:15:14  <Alberth> *not
17:16:04  <Nitrodev> there we go
17:16:10  <Nitrodev> and it was
17:16:12  <Nitrodev> i think
17:16:42  <andythenorth> 30 knot steam pax ships
17:17:10  <Alberth> the first time a train arrives, there is no cargo, so if you don't say "full load", it immediately leaves, since it loaded everything there was (ie nothing)
17:17:15  <andythenorth> Also, irl, express ships rely on frequency of service, one giant ship not as good as three smaller ones
17:17:43  <andythenorth> Give or take other factors, like passenger numbers
17:18:38  <Alberth> very big ships :)
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17:21:46  <andythenorth> Ach, pax only ships will do
17:21:57  <andythenorth> Unblocks designing the cargo ships
17:22:12  <andythenorth> No pax-freight universal ships
17:22:36  *** supermop__ has quit IRC
17:23:24  <andythenorth> RL doesn't apply
17:23:47  <Alberth> just show the ships bottom, in the buy menu, and add the top part in refitting :)
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17:24:13  <andythenorth> Ha
17:24:37  <Alberth> but having cargo specific ships is much nicer to choose from, imho
17:25:16  <Alberth> especially pax / no-pax
17:25:19  <Samu> group route 56, with 316 ships, of which only 2 are necessary
17:25:51  <Alberth> no no, the AI thinks it needs 316 ships, so 316 ships it is :)
17:26:20  <Samu> the AI is now doing this: ship doesn't profit, sell
17:26:29  <Alberth> :)
17:26:39  <Samu> then adds again on the other side
17:26:39  <Alberth> so it sells all 316? :)
17:26:50  <Samu> 316 > 317 > 316 > 317
17:26:56  <Alberth> haha :D
17:27:19  <Alberth> one good way to loose your money :)
17:27:56  <Samu> on another note, NPF pathfinder did actually find a path going through 1055 tiles distance
17:28:00  <Samu> no lost ships
17:28:03  <Alberth> although it's likely hard to prevent these things from happening
17:28:06  <Samu> but extremely slow server
17:29:45  * Matarazzo slaps Matarazzo around a bit with a large fishbot
17:30:55  <Samu> log range for routes is 0-55, group name range for routes is 1-56, i was being mislead
17:31:02  <Samu> grr
17:31:08  <Samu> just fixed explanation on the topic
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17:35:36  <Nitrodev> should i consider buying a new vehicle if there are many people or mail waiting at a station
17:35:58  <Nitrodev> and station in this case can refer to airports as well
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17:37:36  <Samu> legal question: can I post my modified version of wmdot on the forum? I don't really understand licenses
17:37:50  <Samu> so i'm afraid of doing it
17:41:00  <Alberth> for what purpose?
17:41:06  <Nitrodev> is it logical to make buses that go between towns?
17:41:50  <Alberth> Nitrodev: pax (passengers/mail) is hard to handle, you have an endless supply
17:41:50  <Samu> to load my savegame if it's not compatible
17:41:56  <Samu> but i guess it is
17:42:39  <Samu> i've edited wmdot to make his orders at the destination unload and leave empty
17:42:47  <Alberth> Samu: I'd keep the version for a while, until you hear it couild be loaded
17:42:53  <Samu> ok
17:43:40  <Alberth> although it should be fine for this purpose, I think
17:44:11  <Alberth> if you would publish your own AI, based on wmdot, you'd better give it a new name
17:44:32  <frosch123> yay, finally made the bot work to delete spam from the wiki \o/
17:44:35  <Samu> ah no, i'm not skilled enough for that
17:44:47  <Alberth> but assuming wmdot is GPL, you can still put the source on the forum
17:44:56  <Alberth> frosch123:  \o/
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17:45:58  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth
17:46:21  <Alberth> euhm, ok, thanks ChanServ :)
17:46:57  * frosch123 waits for speech
17:47:34  <Alberth> Nitrodev: passengers between towns works nicely, pax in both directions :)
17:48:04  <Alberth> they might have run out of alphabet letter for +"speech"  :)
17:48:14  <Alberth> *letters
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17:59:25  <Samu> Copyright 2011-2014 by W. Minchin
18:00:42  * andythenorth ponders DockTypes spec
18:01:05  <Samu> Permission is granted to you to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell this software, and provide these rights to others, provided:
18:01:11  <andythenorth> Specifically, whether to optionally preserve current inifinite dock behaviour as option
18:01:28  <Samu> bah whatever, i'll wait for an answer
18:01:45  <frosch123> what should it do when the dock is full?
18:02:10  <frosch123> skip the station?
18:03:22  <andythenorth> Wait
18:03:26  <andythenorth> But where?
18:03:32  <frosch123> exactly :)
18:03:37  <andythenorth> On the tile, but not loading?
18:04:18  <andythenorth> Or do docks have some pre-defined holding point?
18:04:20  <frosch123> so you want to limit loading speed to 1 ship at a time
18:04:35  <andythenorth> Yeup
18:04:51  <andythenorth> Also must be compatible with the type of dock...
18:04:53  <Alberth> enable "improved loading"
18:04:58  <frosch123> it already loads only ship, it only starts with the next one of there is enough cargo waiting to completely fill the previous ones
18:05:16  <frosch123> so, are you talking about docks with thousand of cargo wating?
18:06:13  <frosch123> maybe multi-tile docks can just load faster?
18:06:39  <frosch123> ship "length" defines how many docks a ship can make use of
18:06:58  <andythenorth> maybe
18:08:37  <andythenorth> intent is to a) introduce 'types' for ships by limiting compatibilty to specific docks b) as side effect, increase physical size of docks if lots of ship routes use them
18:08:54  <andythenorth> b is definitely side effect, not intention
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18:10:10  * andythenorth must to dinner, biab
18:10:18  <andythenorth> Also....eye candy :p
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18:14:26  <Nitrodev> i have 106 passengers waiting at one airport...
18:15:48  <Samu> crap, notepad can't open log files over 1 TB
18:16:29  <Samu> what am i supposed to do now? I need to find out if an AI crashed or not
18:17:25  <Samu> i dont feel like installing word, i dont even know if word would open
18:19:26  <Samu> trying wordpad
18:19:52  <Wolf01> Try less
18:21:18  <Samu> it's PAXLink log
18:22:07  <Wolf01>
18:23:32  <Alberth> Nitrodev: oh, only 106 :)
18:24:05  <Alberth> I tend to have 2000 to 4000 :)
18:25:00  <Alberth> try tail  :)
18:26:06  <Samu> I'm trying type
18:26:10  <Samu> type Core5.txt
18:26:19  <Samu> it's scrolling all over it
18:26:22  <Samu> must wait lol
18:27:14  <Nitrodev> i'm losing money
18:27:58  <Alberth> click on the vehicle list, and sort on income
18:28:16  <Alberth> look at the vehicles with negative profits :p
18:30:06  <Alberth> Samu:  close the window, stuff scrolls a lot quicker then
18:30:15  <Alberth> minimize, actually
18:30:41  <Samu> :) i did that, still not reached the end
18:30:59  <Alberth> 1TB is a lot of lines :)
18:31:15  <Alberth> imagine you have a disk that has 100 times that :)
18:31:36  <Samu> did i say tb?
18:31:40  <Samu> crap, it's 1 GB
18:31:49  <Samu> lol i'm so dumb at times
18:32:17  <Samu> let me see
18:32:34  <Samu> 1,06 GB (1.143.425.929 bytes)
18:32:37  <Samu> yeah 1,06GB
18:32:48  <Samu> how did I come up with TB
18:33:59  <Nitrodev> every vehicle is making money...
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18:38:27  <Nitrodev> -3000 dollars
18:38:29  <Alberth> too much loan?
18:39:53  <Nitrodev> property mainttenance
18:39:56  <Nitrodev> haven't touched loan
18:40:09  <Nitrodev> i mean, i haven't gotten mroe loan
18:40:16  <Nitrodev> since the game starts you off with a loan
18:40:23  <Alberth> ah, enabled infra structure thingie
18:41:35  <Alberth> infrastructure maintenance is its name
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18:42:00  <Alberth> yep, that grows exponentially as you have more tracks/roads/stations/etc
18:42:16  <Alberth> open the finances windows, bottom right has a "infrastructure window
18:42:19  <Alberth> button
18:42:35  <Nitrodev> abandoned
18:43:07  <Samu> real time priority, zzzz
18:43:29  <Nitrodev> nah
18:43:34  <Alberth> zzzzz is very good, especially in horizontal position :)
18:43:35  <Nitrodev> just got annoyed
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18:43:55  <Samu> it can't go any faster than this :(
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18:46:20  <Samu> nice, reachd the end of it
18:46:27  <Samu> AI did not crash
18:46:43  <Samu> still needs 15 more years for 2051
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20:00:06  <Samu> gelignite: did you create gelignAIte?
20:02:54  <gelignite> it's been a while, but yes.
20:04:04  <Samu> ah nice nice, do you want to participate on this topic?
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20:59:32  <gelignite> Samu, sure, but it'll take some time for me to get into that stuff again. as said, it's been a while and i forgot most of it. :-/
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21:16:45  <andythenorth> Is cat
21:17:00  <Wolf01> Sure
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21:36:12  <andythenorth> Is bed
21:36:22  <andythenorth> Bad connection also
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22:18:14  <Samu> something inside me tells me that the Zen cpus will be slightly below Broadwell level of performance
22:19:26  <Samu> will be between Haswell and Broadwell
22:19:52  <Samu> core ix-4xxx series and core ix-5xxx series
22:20:27  <Samu> intel is launching core ix-7xxx series when zen come out... :( zen will disappoint
22:24:21  <Samu> i even doubt a 4 core zen will match a 8 core bulldozer in some of the benchmarks
22:25:28  <Samu> especially integer multi-threaded based
22:31:22  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:46:27  <Samu> looks like trees actually affect AI perfomance
23:46:53  <Samu> evil trees
23:47:09  <goodger> is that just if the ents patch is enabled?
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23:47:49  <Samu> affects some ais pathfinder cost predictions
23:47:54  <Samu> i see incomplete roads
23:49:33  <Samu> epictrans bankrupted again, I'm gonna try him on a map without trees
23:49:53  <Samu> if any tree is placed, that's the ai placing them
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