Log for #openttd on 18th September 2016:
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00:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so the badger is the opposit of the goodger?
00:02:20  <Wolf01> Yes
00:02:27  <goodger> yes, I am the opposite of a small, mal-designed and obsolete mass-transit system
00:02:37  <Supercheese> The goodger, the badger, and the uglyger
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00:16:56  <Wolf01> 'night
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05:37:05  <Alberth> moin
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07:21:21  <andythenorth> bulldozer cat
07:26:31  <Alberth> o/
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08:08:21  <andythenorth> RL has copied Road Hog again
08:08:40  <andythenorth> whatever I make up in my imagination, Russia has already built :P
08:10:22  <Alberth> :)
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08:24:58  <Wolf01> Moin
08:25:04  <andythenorth> 2 sizes of pax tram is silly? spams the buy menu?
08:25:06  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
08:25:14  <andythenorth> sizes = capacities
08:25:35  * andythenorth has progression issues
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08:38:30  <Alberth> is there any reason not to pick the biggest one?
08:38:40  <Alberth> moin Wolf
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08:43:35  <Wolf01> Bleurgh, I'm malfunctioning today :(
08:43:50  <Wolf01> But at least the pc started at the first try
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08:59:22  <andythenorth> Alberth: only if it’s a small town
08:59:57  <Alberth> ok, that won't happen to me :)
09:00:28  <Alberth> also, small towns grow pretty fast, unless it's blocked by something
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09:01:34  * andythenorth must find another way then
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09:24:08  <andythenorth> odd numbers are the problem :P
09:25:05  <andythenorth> total lengths divisible by both 3 units and 4 units isn’t possible except 12/8 or 24/8 :P
09:28:54  <Alberth> :)
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09:55:52  <andythenorth> interesting
09:56:06  * andythenorth was reading about Wii U hardware, and now about Mario design
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10:09:27  <Alberth> games are designed too :)
10:09:31  <Alberth> hola
10:09:45  <Wolf01> Quak
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10:11:21  <frosch123> moi
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10:16:44  <andythenorth> bloody trams
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10:33:15  * andythenorth could just make pax and mail trams 16/8 long, like the freight trams
10:33:41  <andythenorth> total consistency
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11:11:04  <Samu> hi
11:22:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: devzone is undead again
11:23:07  <V453000> Nice
11:23:31  <V453000> Thanks frog
11:33:10  <andythenorth> fanks :)
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11:54:52  <andythenorth> 8/8 mail trams, 16/8 box trams
11:55:15  <andythenorth> new problem is that I need 2 more modern versions after number 3 :P
11:55:26  <andythenorth> and number already looks modern :P
11:56:31  <Wolf01> Make more streamlined ones
11:56:47  <andythenorth> I’ll need to
11:56:52  <andythenorth> pax trams have same need
11:57:23  <andythenorth> slopes generally look bad in ttd scale though :)
11:58:06  <Wolf01> Make just the side view streamlined ;)
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12:59:12  <Samu> i still don't understand how terraform code works
12:59:33  <Samu> so i find a tile with a slope I don't like
12:59:42  <Samu> i flatten it
12:59:55  <Samu> but then, i get different results
13:00:46  <Samu> first pass i get a tile with the slope I don't like, the code after it is working with the assumption of the tile before the terraform
13:01:13  <Samu> then at the second pass i get a flattened tile, the code after it is working with the wrong assumption
13:01:22  <Samu> why?
13:03:54  <Samu>                                                                                                                                                                                                   --                                                      n
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13:55:20  <Samu> i hate tree tiles
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14:02:49  <Samu> IsCoast returns false for trees
14:03:04  <Samu> this is stupid
14:03:33  <Samu> :(
14:04:14  <Samu> trees don't have waterclass, why :(
14:07:57  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27656 trunk/src/object_cmd.cpp (2016-09-18 16:07:52 +0200 )
14:07:58  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6511]: When removing objects of bankrupt companies the tiles may revert to canal. In that case also check the ownership of the canal.
14:09:06  <Samu> oh nice frosch, ty
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14:15:11  <andythenorth> so what whole numbers add up to 16? :P
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14:27:19  <Alberth> o/
14:29:23  <Alberth> create a speed bonus depending on consist length :p
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14:36:50  <frosch123> i think andy should atleast restrict the numbers to >= 1
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14:50:23  <Alberth> can you even make 0/8 size vehicles?
14:55:24  <frosch123> i hope not :)
15:05:24  <Samu> @calc 40 + 10000+10000+10000+10000+350
15:05:24  <DorpsGek> Samu: 40390
15:05:47  <Samu> hmm i'm getting 40640 :(
15:06:10  <goodger> Samu: using an intel microprocessor?
15:06:24  <Samu> no
15:07:27  <Samu> ah right, 250 more
15:07:32  <Samu> cost of terraform
15:07:35  <Samu> lower land
15:07:52  <Samu> @calc 40 + 10000 + 10000 + 10000 + 10000 + 250 + 350
15:07:52  <DorpsGek> Samu: 40640
15:07:59  <Samu> correct!
15:08:45  <Samu> so, placing a dock with automatic terraform can get a cost of up to 40640, due to the cost of lowering a corner on water
15:09:01  <Samu> i don't think this is a good idea
15:11:36  <Samu> it eases construction, but the player has to be smart about it
15:12:58  <Samu> it's not even canal, it's ocean water
15:17:54  <Samu> actually, this cost can go higher
15:21:04  <Samu> 		m_value	41570	__int64
15:21:21  <Samu> not much higher though
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15:55:06  <Samu> £45k :)
15:55:11  <Samu> when it has to build canal
15:55:18  <Samu> oh well
16:12:09  <Samu> docks cannot stop a flood
16:12:22  <Samu> unless built on a canal
16:12:48  <Samu> if i remove the dock, it may not be a good idea to remove the canal automaticaly
16:16:27  <Samu> auto terraforming on sea level... :( hmm
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16:25:58  <mender27> Hello everyone :). I was wondering whether there are some ongoing efforts to convert the original MIDI music files into mp3 or any other format? I have some seriously problems getting timidity++ to work on GNU/Linux.
16:28:24  <Alberth> even if there is such an effort, the converted results could not be distributed
16:29:40  <Alberth> there is also libtimidity, did you install that?
16:30:28  <Samu> is there a way to get a GetTileMinZ or a way to detect if we're at sea level?
16:32:14  <Alberth> no TileHeight or so?
16:34:17  <Alberth> Samu: GetTileZ
16:34:38  <Samu> oh, oki
16:35:10  <Alberth> oh, and TileHeight too, I wonder what the difference is
16:37:25  <Alberth> ah, GetTileZ gives minimum height of its corners
16:37:55  <Samu> if (GetTileZ(tile_cur) == 0) return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE);
16:38:17  <Samu> is there a SEA_LEVEL or something so i dont type 0
16:38:18  <Alberth> I hate that error, it doesn't say what is wrong
16:38:26  <andythenorth>
16:38:31  <Alberth> nah, just 0
16:38:32  <andythenorth> trams 11 and 16
16:38:41  <mender27> Alberth, does it have something to do with the license? And no, I haven't heard of libtimidity umfortunately.
16:38:42  <andythenorth> 16/8 long, consistent with most other tram lengths
16:38:49  <andythenorth> too chibi?
16:39:13  <Alberth> mender27: original music is copyrighted, just as original game data
16:39:23  <Samu> land sloped in wrong direction then?
16:39:31  <andythenorth> supermop: is tramz ^^
16:39:57  <mender27> Alberth, are the music replacement projects in MIDI then?
16:40:00  <Samu> no more automatic terraforming at sea level :)
16:42:54  <Alberth> mender27: I have no idea; I tend to use the NoMusic music pack, which is lovely silent :p
16:43:48  <mender27> Alberth, the reason I'm asking is that there is a known conflict between timidity and PulseAudio and it cannot be manually fixed by some file replacements. I personally really like the original music :).
16:47:37  <andythenorth> so what GS should I use in my test game? o_O
16:48:14  <Alberth> city builder?
16:48:17  <Samu> if (GetTileZ(tile) == 0 && GetTileZ(tile_cur) == 0) return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE);
16:48:21  <Samu> better
16:48:30  <V453000> andythenorth stop pretending you play this game
16:48:45  <Samu> tile is the sloped dock tile on land, tile_cur is the watered dock tile
16:49:25  <andythenorth> V453000: sometimes
16:49:38  <andythenorth> for about 60 years
16:49:41  <V453000> I have actually been playing quite a bit in the last 2 days too
16:49:45  <Alberth> Samu: they can be different?
16:49:57  <andythenorth> game is ok
16:50:04  <andythenorth> got some problems, but eh
16:50:05  <mender27> Alberth, last question. Is it fine if the sound files the OpenTTD project provides are packaged for Fedora?
16:50:21  <V453000> well I am still finding new things that nobody has built yet ever andythenorth
16:50:28  <V453000> that alone to me is absolutely insane
16:50:44  <Eddi|zuHause> elections are "fun"... everybody loses, but some of those losers declare themselves "winner"
16:50:53  <V453000> that a game can be actually so complex for years
16:51:20  <Alberth> mender27: Don't think any court will be impressed that you have created original work then :)
16:51:53  <Alberth> and quite likely, Fedora will never accept such files
16:52:28  <Alberth> but why make your life difficult? just dump the files in ~/.openttd
16:52:46  <Alberth> probably in some sub-directory of that
16:53:07  <mender27> Alberth, well, the files are available as AUR packages for Arch Linux somehow. I mean, I could also just use the in-game downloader to get them that way.
16:53:44  <Alberth> that means someone is not respecting copyright
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16:54:10  <Alberth> and probably someone else is not checking stuff carefully :)
16:54:12  <mender27> Alberth, alright, this seems pretty clear then. I was not aware of that.
16:54:32  <Samu> is there a way to forbid the terraform to touch water tiles?
16:54:36  <mender27> Alberth, I only saw that the opensfx files are under Creative Commons Plus.
16:54:56  <Samu> ret = DoCommand(tile_cur, z ? slope : ComplementSlope(slope), z ? 0 : 1, flags, CMD_TERRAFORM_LAND);
16:55:01  <Samu> a flag?
16:55:05  <andythenorth> V453000: what have you found? o_O
16:55:13  <Alberth> mender27: yep, but that's sound effects, and not music
16:55:23  <Alberth> there may be a music pack too
16:55:59  <andythenorth> ach, these passenger trams are breaking my brain
16:56:08  <Alberth> tried the ingame downloader?  type "music" and see what turns up :)
16:56:14  <mender27> Alberth, well, I was personally more interested in the music. Either of them can be downloaded via the in-game downloader, except that music will not work due to a conflict with PulseAudio as I mentioned.
16:56:27  <Samu> flags & DC_NO_WATER?
16:56:56  <mender27> Alberth, so I think if at all, I should probably come up with a smart workaround to get the music to play at all and not spend time finding means of packaging it :P.
16:57:30  <Alberth> bleeding edge software breaks every now and then :)
16:58:03  <mender27> timidity++ is actually quite old and the problem's been around for some time already :(.
16:58:22  <Alberth> I think I use it too, for sfx, and it seems to work
16:58:44  <Alberth> but I don't care much about sound or music, as I usually have the radio on
16:59:08  <mender27> Alberth, it works for sfx, yes. Not for music, though. Regarding the music files, I realized it's fine for Arch Linux to have the packages in AUR, because they only contain means of downloading the files, not the files themselves.
16:59:27  <Alberth> ah, that would be fine
16:59:38  <mender27> Alberth, everything in the end is pulled from the OpenTTD project repositories :).
16:59:53  <mender27> same for FreeBSD ports, in fact.
17:00:09  <Alberth> luckily, linuces tend to have their own mirror :)
17:00:19  <mender27> I see
17:00:19  <Alberth> that saves us a lot of bandwidth
17:00:26  <mender27> tehe ;)
17:00:54  <Alberth> now if they also would always distribute the newst stable .......   :)
17:01:26  <Samu> - got a problem here. I'm placing a dock, and the terraform is gonna auto-flat the corner of the 2nd tile, but that means I'm touching the water... I don't want to allow sea leavel changes, what do I do?
17:02:37  <Alberth> what's the point of a dock that is not at water height?
17:02:38  <mender27> Alberth, you mean the "nightly" gets used or what?
17:02:57  <Alberth> mender27: not much at all, I think
17:03:04  <Samu> imagine an aqueduct is placed in front of it
17:03:25  <Alberth> but some distributions still use 1.5.3, while we have released 1.6.1 almost 6 months ago
17:03:41  <mender27> Alberth, I know Arch Linux regularly builds the newest version where there is a version bump.
17:04:02  <mender27> when there is*. Otherwise yes, Ubuntu, Debian, etc. use the old version.
17:04:03  <Alberth> that's to be expected, Arch is literally bleeding edge :)
17:04:20  <mender27> Fedora also has the most recent version I think.
17:04:42  <Alberth> Samu: perhaps not use all corners for deciding height, but eg only the middle 2 or so?
17:05:11  <Alberth> no idea, I always build directly from trunk, hardly ever use a stable :)
17:05:53  <Alberth> Samu: but you need to define something so the user knows what he will get
17:06:01  <mender27> Alberth, what VCS is used by the OpenTTD project?
17:06:13  <Alberth> you can of course also check other tiles for water height
17:06:33  <Alberth> mender27:  commits are in svn, but there are mirrors to hg and git
17:07:11  <mender27> Alberth, cool, I might be interested in checking the git mirrors then. I work primarily with git, though I did use svn for FreeBSD kernel tree sources.
17:07:53  <Alberth> ( for online browsing)
17:08:28  <mender27> Alberth, thanks a lot :). What GNU/Linux distribution do you use?
17:08:35  <Alberth> fedora
17:08:46  <mender27> Alberth, have you tried Arch Linux also?
17:09:24  <Alberth> no, arch linux didn't exist at the time
17:10:01  <Alberth> and I am sort of done experimenting linux distributions
17:10:20  <Alberth> ie I just need one that works, and that's it
17:11:03  <Alberth> I prefer to hack program source code rather than fighting OS programs :)
17:11:50  <Alberth> at work I use Ubuntu, and that sort of works too, except for Gnome :p
17:11:53  <mender27> Alberth, hehe, I agree. I'm reaching a similar conclusion recently. I'm actually hacking package distribution in Fedora nowadays.
17:12:24  <mender27> Alberth, I switched all of my machines, even servers to Fedora, because there's just so much less hassle.
17:12:51  <mender27> and at work we use CentOS, as it was deemed "the most stable" from the RPM family.
17:13:17  <Alberth> ha, we did that too, but it turned out a bit too stable :p
17:14:05  <Alberth> you can't run anything from outside sources, as everybody assumes newer packages of everything :p
17:14:52  <mender27> Alberth, ah yes, this does tend to happen. Most of my folks are computer savvy, but not UNIX savvy so we went for CentOS. It's supposed to just work.
17:15:34  <mender27> Alberth, the added requirement was a distribution supported by our program suite provider. That's also one of the reasons I switched to Fedora and not stayed with whatever other UNIX-like.
17:16:15  <Alberth> makes sense
17:17:22  <Alberth> although in the end, the differences are not that big, which is also a reason not to experiment too much with distributions
17:17:39  <Alberth> they don't have radically different software at all :)
17:19:52  <mender27> Alberth, exactly. Plus, it's worth knowing how to distribute for one of the "big three". Just to let you know, I removed the project with the music files I had on the Fedora build server.
17:20:39  <andythenorth>
17:20:49  <andythenorth> power tram + 2 short trailers
17:20:53  <andythenorth> chibi, but less silly
17:21:31  <andythenorth> (trams 1 and 3)
17:23:07  <Alberth> looks better indeed
17:23:14  <Alberth> white train gone?
17:23:54  <Alberth> mender27: nice
17:24:02  <Alberth> also, time for dinner
17:26:00  <mender27> Alberth, if there are more people actually interested in getting the MIDI files to play on GNU/Linux with PulseAudio, I might find the motivation to work on a solution. Right now it's "case closed" and I'll simply use the in-game downloader :).
17:26:14  <Samu> flags | DC_NO_WATER ?
17:27:41  <Samu> yay, DC_NO_WATER was the answer
17:27:52  <Samu> flags | DC_NO_WATER
17:27:59  <Samu> ret = DoCommand(tile_cur, z ? slope : ComplementSlope(slope), z ? 0 : 1, flags | DC_NO_WATER, CMD_TERRAFORM_LAND);
17:28:08  <mender27> nice job Samu :).
17:28:32  <Samu> terraform, but not on water
17:32:57  <andythenorth> steam buses
17:33:34  <Alberth> "carriages" covers them better :)
17:33:59  <Alberth> in-between horse carriages and proper trams :)
17:34:54  <V453000> andythenorth: just some extremely insane construction
17:35:27  <V453000> basically I have trains load passengers just to make them fulfill some conditional condition, and the passengers get deadened upon refiting magix
17:36:43  <Samu> here's what I got so far,
17:37:14  <Samu> the part about Move to second tile was were i made the auto terraform changes
17:37:51  <Samu> the 3rd tile won't check for water
17:37:54  <Samu> just build´~
17:38:58  <Samu> i copy pasted that coa stuff from tunnelbridge, still a bit confused about it
17:44:12  <Samu> what does clear object area do?
17:51:31  <Samu> i dont understand how it works
17:51:48  <Samu> only that it gets the job done
17:54:13  <mender27> Alberth, how is multiplayer handled in OpenTTD? Direct IP-to-IP connections?
17:55:16  <Alberth> not sure, but one of the machines becomes the server, and handles synchronization, and distribution of commands
17:56:42  <mender27> Alberth, like in old-school LAN, right?
17:57:15  <Alberth> that could work, but you can also play across the internet
17:57:16  <mender27> Alberth, I think old Diablo 2 had such an option.
17:57:46  <mender27> Alberth, there was an IP-to-IP mode, but also via LAN with a central host.
17:57:50  <Alberth> all machines play the game, you just need one of them to handle synchronization and connecting to
17:58:17  <mender27> Alberth, makes sense then. Cool :). Do you play OpenTTD in multi often?
17:58:26  <Alberth> no
17:58:36  <Alberth> I don't play the game much at all :)
17:58:45  <Alberth> but that seems to be a habit of devs :p
17:59:46  <Alberth> we prefer games in source code :p
18:00:09  <mender27> Alberth, tehe. and I came up with a way to play the music while gaming. The OST is available on Youtube. As in "fun with numbers"? ;>
18:00:30  <Alberth> could work :)
18:01:06  <mender27> man, the original music is simply godly...
18:12:16  <frosch123> mender27: <- that has some openttd multiplayer theory
18:23:01  <mender27> frosch123, thanks a lot :).
18:23:48  <mender27> The theory might be useful for some of my feature Python projects ;D.
18:32:49  <Samu> replays
18:32:51  <Samu> hmm
18:33:09  <Samu> why not add replays to openttd?
18:35:30  <Samu> "desync recording", rename it to "replay"
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18:47:00  <Rubidium> because it is unstable as hell? Add/remove/change one character in the source code and things might not replay in the same way anymore
18:55:58  <Samu> even in the same version?
19:07:42  <Rubidium> no, but same is really strict
19:16:21  <Samu> if (GetTileZ(tile) == 0 && GetTileZ(tile_cur) == 0) return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE);
19:16:24  <Samu> ret = DoCommand(tile_cur, z ? slope : ComplementSlope(slope), z ? 0 : 1, flags | DC_NO_WATER, CMD_TERRAFORM_LAND);
19:16:32  <Samu> i need both, after all
19:16:55  <Samu> and this 	if (!IsTileFlat(tile_cur)) {
19:18:03  <Samu> - better view
19:18:18  <Samu> line 1, 2 and 19
19:25:22  <Samu> seems to be doing what i want
19:25:59  <Samu> there are too many slope configurations
19:26:20  <Samu> do you see a combination which could be removing water?
19:26:39  <Samu> sea water
19:27:06  <Samu> maybe this part needs a comment
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19:33:06  <Samu> there are 7 slope configurations for the 2nd tile
19:33:17  <Samu> 1 of them is flat
19:33:34  <Samu> the other 6 are auto-terraformed
19:34:01  <Samu> but it depends if it touches sea water
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19:41:38  <andythenorth> such tramz
19:41:48  <andythenorth> [just getting the sizes right]
19:47:58  <andythenorth> #5 too long still
19:50:05  <andythenorth> #1 is such realisms
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21:10:49  <Samu> is there a problem with the terraform command with | DC_NO_WATER or is it me?
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22:56:59  <Samu> i think i found the problem
22:57:06  <Samu> coast tiles are not water
22:57:32  <Samu> let me continue this investigation
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