Log for #openttd on 22nd October 2016:
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00:11:49  <welshdragon> Morning, Is there a way to tell YAPF to prefer through platforms over terminus ones?
00:12:05  <welshdragon> Want to avoid waypoints at all costs
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07:01:37  <Alberth> hi hi
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07:11:02  <andythenorth> o/
07:12:13  <Alberth> o/
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07:43:56  <Alberth> such quietness :)
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09:08:46  <andythenorth> quietness such
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09:23:04  <frosch123> moi
09:25:46  <Alberth> o/
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09:26:35  <Alberth> andythenorth: Valuables in Buildwas open tram?
09:27:49  <andythenorth> Alberth: why not? :D
09:28:04  <andythenorth> it’s a side effect of ‘open trams are the default for unknown cargos'
09:28:25  <Alberth> :)
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09:37:58  <welshdragon> Morning, Is there a way to tell YAPF to prefer through platforms over termini ones?
09:38:58  <frosch123> yapf prefers platforms that fit the train length
09:39:04  <frosch123> so maybe make the terminus ones one tile longer
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09:56:18  <welshdragon> or make the trains 2x longer? ;)
10:00:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you should prefer shorter trains rather than longer trains
10:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, you could just skip this station in the orders (without non-stop), so as long as there is no path around it, trains will take the through platforms and stop there (forming an implicit order)
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13:51:10  <supermop> yo
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15:13:56  <Wolf01> o/
15:22:02  <supermop> yo
15:22:04  <Alberth> o/
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15:51:28  <Wolf01> Quak
15:52:26  <frosch123> lo
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16:38:47  <Wolf01> o/
16:44:18  <sim-al2> \o/
16:50:56  <andythenorth> wolf cat
16:51:05  <Wolf01> CatDog
16:52:22  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
16:52:22  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 3 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <Pikka> why is 90 too small? That's more than two rail coaches
16:52:32  <Wolf01> Today I took a pause... I don't know if I resist until tomorrow XD
16:52:51  <andythenorth> we have wolf frog dragon, but no bird
16:52:56  <andythenorth> also…where is cat? o_O
16:53:04  <Wolf01> Cat is a lie
16:53:20  <Wolf01> Or it was cake?
16:53:41  <andythenorth> cake is lie
16:53:44  <andythenorth> cat is truth
16:54:08  <andythenorth> probably cat
16:54:24  <Wolf01> Ceiling cat
16:56:09  <andythenorth> Wolf01: resist tanks, or resist NRT?
16:56:31  <Wolf01> Both, no development weekend, I worked too much this week
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16:57:07  <Wolf01> The problem is: will I return to work on it monday?
16:57:29  * andythenorth must draw tramz
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17:42:07  <Ethereal_Shiver> LL5RR is enough gap between directions for a TL3 game right?
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17:54:31  <asie> Does anyone have contact with the OpenTTD DS developers/
17:54:47  <asie> Looking into the technical aspects of making a 3DS port, seeing as that platform has a lot more power and it could be actually viable
17:55:27  <Ethereal_Shiver> asie, the people who might would probably be in (though most are probably in here too, so idk)
17:55:31  <Alberth> do we have such a thing?
17:55:37  <asie> There was one, years ago.
17:55:40  <Alberth> likely it has a forum thread then
17:55:58  <Alberth> you could try a PM to the author
17:56:15  <asie> mhm, thanks
17:56:31  <Alberth> is moslt for review discussions, mostly unused now
17:56:33  <asie> one thing that worries me, though, is that the 3DS total screen surface is *not* a rectangle
17:56:39  <asie> it's 400x240 on top, 320x240 on bottom
17:56:43  <asie> this introduces some complications
17:56:53  <Alberth> how nice :p
17:57:13  <asie> i could just make it a 320x480 screen but then valuable estate is lost
17:57:17  <Alberth> how did they manage that?
17:57:26  <asie> it does have two screens
17:57:34  <asie> it's not particularly hard to have two screens of different aspect ratios
17:57:35  <Alberth> ah, right
17:57:45  <asie> but i don't think OTTD is ready for that case
17:57:54  <Alberth> you can do MP :p
17:58:18  <Alberth> or make a video driver with two output screens, perhaps
17:58:28  <asie> yes, that could work
17:58:49  <asie> i'll probably look into how the DS port did it, then ignore most of the advice as instead of 4MB of RAM I have about 16 times that to use
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18:21:12  <Alberth> I was thinking to add non-movables like the radio transmitter to the map, but I can't see a way to add or remove them
18:21:43  <Alberth> it's not a hard limit, but you can play by your own rules anyway :)
18:21:53  <Alberth> and as first experiment perhaps not so bad
18:22:26  <Ethereal_Shiver> Can I do this, or is this merger not valid?
18:24:17  <Alberth> my guess it would block lines
18:25:16  <Ethereal_Shiver> Well, it's a direct copy of this priority merger: I'm just wondering if I can double use the track with the combo and exit signal for both tracks
18:25:21  <Ethereal_Shiver> Or if I have to build a separate one
18:25:27  <Alberth> ie a train at the closest main line track would block a train at the furthest side line
18:25:52  <Ethereal_Shiver> Well, "blocking" is a way to put it, since it's a priority merger, I guess
18:26:08  <Alberth> there is no signal from the end of detection track to both main lines
18:26:17  <Alberth> so they act the same, I think
18:28:05  <Ethereal_Shiver> I'll test it
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18:30:51  <Alberth> trains at one main line, and at the opposite side line :)
18:31:32  <Alberth> or even 1 train, you can just stop it on the detection area
18:32:22  <Ethereal_Shiver> Oh I get you now
18:32:34  <Ethereal_Shiver> Yeah, sounds like it would
18:33:42  <Alberth> move one of the merge points, so you can have 2 detection tracks after each other?
18:34:56  <Wolf01> Oh, presignal contraptions :D
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18:35:24  <Alberth> :)
18:36:03  <Ethereal_Shiver> I suppose it doesn't matter exactly where I put them, so this is valid enough
18:36:12  <Wolf01> You'll end up with a full touring complete calculator in a 4196 map in no time1024*4
18:36:20  <Alberth> I always somewhat wonder if making main lines different in height would be helpful
18:36:58  <Alberth> that would work
18:37:24  <Wolf01> Do you know what could be helpful? Eddi suggestion about elevated tracks
18:37:32  <Alberth> why don't you make the main lines straight?
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18:37:53  <Ethereal_Shiver> Well, height difference in crossing is always helpful, but in practice, building bridges/tunnels on the sidelines is what I find better, because they're the ones you care less about
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18:38:26  <Ethereal_Shiver> Alberth, you mean make it L_L5R_R instead of LL5RR?
18:38:43  <Alberth> if _ means space, yes
18:39:04  <Alberth> 2 tiles spaces, actually, by the looks of it
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18:39:43  <Ethereal_Shiver> Yeah, L_L5R_R means this:
18:39:50  <Alberth> what I mean is build the entire side lines 1 tile higher
18:40:28  <Alberth>  <-- that needs 2 tiles for straight main lines
18:40:36  <Ethereal_Shiver> I'm going to restart another game later (maybe play multiplayer actually now that I'm comfortable with building ML's that are bigger than double track
18:44:06  <Alberth> or build one main line 1 tile higher than the other
18:47:03  <Ethereal_Shiver> Higher as in elevation?
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18:49:22  <Wolf01> this won't work?
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18:54:42  <Alberth> Wolf01:  so what happens if there is a train at one main line, and at the opposite side line?
18:54:54  <Wolf01> Note: PBS
18:55:45  <Alberth> at the side line? or at the detection?
18:55:46  <Wolf01> Oh, that, you meant line 2 blocking line 4
18:55:55  <Alberth> yes
18:56:22  <Alberth> I have no doubt priority makes the main line go through :)
18:56:39  <Wolf01> At least 2 and 3 don't block themselves
18:57:21  <Wolf01> I just fixed one of the problema of the first picture linked :P
18:57:55  <Alberth> ah, so it had even more problems than I thought :)
19:02:41  <Wolf01> This was one of the cases where a PBS-preignal was needed, as 1 or 4 could be blocked by any other, but still with PBS-presignals 2 and 3 could block both 1 and 4
19:02:59  <Wolf01> The only solution is to split the priority
19:03:10  <Wolf01> It solves all the problems ;)
19:03:33  <Alberth> except the space problem :p
19:03:47  <Wolf01> Plenty of space in a 4096 map
19:04:08  <Alberth> never tried that, I'd get lost :p
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19:04:31  <Alberth> 1K x 256 is fun  :)
19:05:07  <Alberth> although no useful way to get to the other side, before 2000 or so
19:05:44  <Alberth> not sure how fast NUTS is
19:05:59  <Alberth> maybe it has fast enough engines sooner
19:09:14  <Ethereal_Shiver> Alberth, NUTS has some good options, though in practice I almost always end up using the "strong" class of trains
19:09:36  <Ethereal_Shiver> They have enough acceleration to not need long priority merges so your side lines don't get backed up
19:09:44  <Alberth> medium is faster at long stretches
19:09:53  <Ethereal_Shiver> Yeah
19:09:57  <Ethereal_Shiver> The "fast" class is kinda meh
19:10:04  <Ethereal_Shiver> I don't like using it for cargo
19:10:18  <Alberth> fast isn't faster enough, due to less power
19:10:47  <Ethereal_Shiver> It would be a good class of trains if you played with a low amount of industries but that's really about it
19:10:49  <Alberth> I have had cases where medium was actually faster then fast
19:11:17  <Ethereal_Shiver> What TL do you usually play with?
19:11:24  <Alberth> but then I use freight multipliers :p
19:11:41  <Alberth> euhm, varies between 5 and 8 or so
19:12:02  <Ethereal_Shiver> Ah yeah, fast is pretty garbage longer than 4
19:12:09  <Ethereal_Shiver> Takes half the map to get up to speed
19:12:20  <Alberth> likely it's not even consistent at the network :p
19:13:06  <Alberth> I don't have packed lines, as stuff may break down, so I need space to not block the entire network
19:13:19  <Ethereal_Shiver> Ah, I play with breakdowns off
19:13:27  <Ethereal_Shiver> I end up with a lot of depots I call "upgrade depots" though
19:13:40  <Alberth> oh, I also do servicing
19:14:02  <Alberth> which means trains go in pretty much any direction you can imagine
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19:14:22  <Alberth> so I built junctions that trains can go in any direction they want
19:14:55  <Alberth> which also means I can just add new connections without worrying whether the destination is reachable
19:14:57  <Ethereal_Shiver> Vast majority of my junctions are only 2-way by design
19:16:03  <Ethereal_Shiver> I'll just build a different SL nearby which sort of makes it 3-way sort of
19:16:04  <Ethereal_Shiver> Lol
19:16:06  <Alberth> works if you don't do servicing
19:17:50  <Alberth> I should code a newgrf so I have always fast maglev, then I can do experiments with a fast back bone where you connect to, for all cargo
19:18:46  <Alberth> sort of centralized general transport service
19:19:25  <Alberth> cargo-dist between all industries would be trivial :p
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19:32:30  <andythenorth> single tile trains
19:32:49  <andythenorth> hmm, is single tile optimum?
19:37:09  <Eddi|zuHause> no
19:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> efficiency of a train line is dependent on the ratio between capacity of a train to the distance between the start of the train and the start of the next train on the line. so high acceleration and long trains are more efficient
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19:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> while efficiency of a junction benefits from shorter trains
19:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> because there are better gaps to slip in
19:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so what's optimum for your network depends on how many junctions you have
19:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you get to an area where you have only junctions and no straight tracks, to get even close to where single tile would be optimal, you should better consider road vehicles
19:42:23  <andythenorth> 1 tile trains waste a lot of tiles to red signals?
19:42:46  <andythenorth> so capacity per tile is lower?
19:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> not only that
19:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> when a train is stopped at a red signal, because there is a train ahead, it then starts accelerating slowly, so the end gap when both trains are at full speed is much longer than signal distance
19:43:46  <andythenorth> how do we define efficiency?  Utilisation per tile of track?
19:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> more acceleration decreases this distance
19:44:04  <Eddi|zuHause> capacity per time at a waypoint/station
19:44:06  <Alberth> amount of cargo / time unit
19:44:22  <andythenorth> if the goal was simply to move 1m tonnes of coal in least time, would the same efficiency rules hold?
19:44:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:45:05  <Alberth> 1m looks sufficient like a continuous stream
19:45:21  <Alberth> ie 1t would be different
19:45:34  <andythenorth> if the goal was adjusted to give a bonus for coal delivered earlier, and penalise coal delivered later…would the same rules hold?
19:46:19  * andythenorth is trying to find the relation between transport efficiency (larger is better) and production efficiency (1 piece flow, or close to 1 piece usually wins out) 
19:46:43  <Alberth> depends on bonuses and penalties, I think
19:47:15  <Wolf01> I'm wondering which plug I will get for the DC adapter for the lego lithium battery pack
19:47:37  <Alberth> ie if you have to drive twice or wait a long time, high bonus and low penalty makes driving twice useful
19:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you're running into a john-nash-problem there. where if each cargopacket were to try to optimise its own result individually, the efficiency of the whole network goes down
19:50:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the "absolute" optimal solution is a fully timetabled network where no junction ever has a collision (no train is ever waiting at a red signal). and then you try to make the trains as long as possible
19:50:31  * andythenorth compares the inventory in each case
19:51:24  <andythenorth> for transport, inventory (capital tied up) is engines and people; land and wagons are approximately fixed
19:51:49  <andythenorth> for production, inventory is materials and land
19:52:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you're trying to say
19:52:23  <andythenorth> efficient factories make for inefficient transport, and vice versa
19:52:25  <andythenorth> IRL
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19:53:12  <andythenorth> efficient factory delivers 1 unit sooner, to minimise inventory and get cashflow faster
19:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like, if a factory tries to streamline its process so that it doesn't have to store raw materials, it puts more stress on the transport to get the raw materials there in time?
19:53:31  <andythenorth> efficient transport builds larger batches, minimising cost of locomotion and people
19:53:34  <andythenorth> yes
19:54:02  <andythenorth> this is why ‘lean’ production is such a thing with books and consultants and so on, and not just business as usual
19:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> luckily, this is a transport simulation, not a production simulation
19:54:10  <andythenorth> yair
19:54:23  <andythenorth> TL;DR
19:54:28  * andythenorth uses 5 tile trains usually
19:55:09  <Alberth> I often use shorter trains
19:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i tend towards longer trains
19:55:33  <Alberth> although I typically do put down 5 tile stations to avoid having to change them later
19:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> like, 8 tile trains and 12 tile signal distance
19:56:31  <Alberth> 8 tiles doesn't work in 1870 :p
19:57:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever started before 1920
19:57:40  <Alberth> iron horse starts earlier :)
19:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> train sets, ship sets, road vehicle sets... all need to match
19:58:33  <Alberth> road hog has nice tramz
19:58:43  <Alberth> no need for other road
19:58:49  <andythenorth> 1900 is about right for starting with my sets
19:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that didn't exist the last time i played :p
19:58:58  <andythenorth> they’ll go back to 1870, but slow
19:59:32  <Alberth> 1860 iirc, was the game report, but I guessed that was a bit too early :)
20:00:21  <Alberth> I guess I get new engines around 1900?
20:00:44  <andythenorth> yup
20:00:47  <andythenorth> or so
20:02:22  <Alberth> not sure what to think of that; it's nice not to have to select a new engine all the time, but on the other hand the entire network now runs 1 or 2 models
20:02:41  <Alberth> one for cargo and one for pax
20:03:23  <andythenorth> ‘one obvious choice’ :)
20:03:39  <andythenorth> it mixes up a bit when the electric train arrives
20:03:42  <andythenorth> joker in the pack
20:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i like diversity
20:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if there is only ever one "choice", i get bored
20:05:46  <Alberth> plenty of train sets for that :)
20:06:17  <Alberth> I care more about tracks and cargo than about engines or wagons
20:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it's also not good to get drowned in choices :p
20:07:27  <Alberth> it needs a "do random suggestion" button :p
20:07:49  <andythenorth> no choice at all? o_O
20:07:58  <Alberth> although not completely random probably
20:08:49  <Alberth> you can do NUTS and play with a single engine the entire game :)
20:09:00  <Alberth> model life is 255 years :)
20:09:14  <andythenorth> the way I look at it, you’ve already chosen to build a train, not a narrow gauge train, a truck, tram, plane, ship or pipeline
20:09:21  <andythenorth> so the engine is just a detail :P
20:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but sometimes the details are the interesting bits
20:10:27  <andythenorth> choose different wagons :)
20:10:29  <andythenorth> there are lots
20:10:59  <Alberth> yeah, that might be better, different engines doesn't work well
20:11:24  <Alberth> maybe have different engines but with same stats :p
20:11:47  <andythenorth> random graphics :)
20:11:47  <Alberth> just another kind of wagon :p
20:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a reason why CETS has around 5 engines per generation, and the generations usually overlap a bit
20:12:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: what year did you reach? o_O
20:12:48  <Alberth> 1893 now
20:13:06  <Alberth> and a bit bored with the game, BB gives useless goals
20:13:32  <andythenorth> sometimes
20:13:40  <andythenorth> I quit my last few BB games
20:14:47  <Alberth> for me, a big part of the fun is puzzling how to make the network fit and work under heavy load
20:15:02  <Alberth> but BB spreads it all evenlay over the map :p
20:15:16  <Alberth> *evenly
20:15:44  <Alberth> although you can re-use some parts sometimes
20:16:52  <Alberth> I tried a maglev game for a change, and it's different; distance is irrelevant
20:17:13  <Alberth> but they move too fast to get any load on the network :p
20:17:37  <andythenorth> some kind of network bee?
20:17:43  <andythenorth> confined space bee?
20:17:46  <andythenorth> bee hive?
20:18:08  <Alberth> yeah, I have been pondering to steer BB towards re-use (or not) of existing networks
20:18:31  <Alberth> ie do a quick check how much track there is between source and destination
20:19:39  <Alberth> it could probably also check for hills that way
20:20:06  <andythenorth> force contiguous networks?
20:20:26  <andythenorth> probably makes building things like junctions too hard
20:20:34  <Alberth> what does that mean?
20:20:40  <andythenorth> all track must be connected
20:21:01  <Alberth> oh, I drag a long piece of otherwise unused tracks all over the map?
20:21:02  <andythenorth> all nodes in same graph, in graph terms
20:21:19  <andythenorth> would require some substantial patch
20:21:42  <andythenorth> Eddi reminded me that Railroad Tycoon worked that way
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20:22:41  <Alberth> I have been thinking about a way to allow expressing positions in a somewhat simple way, and hook that up to eg payment, or construction
20:22:53  <Alberth> or industry creation
20:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably work to have new goals generated near existing infrastructure
20:23:42  <Alberth> likely there are other nice tricks you can do with positions
20:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> pushing the borders slightly outwards over time
20:23:56  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  yeah, that was my estimate too
20:24:28  <Alberth> I had the idea to put down transmitters say every 5 tiles as a border
20:24:48  <Alberth> it's not really a border, but it would do for the first experiment
20:25:06  <Alberth> however, I could not find a call to create or destroy a non-movable
20:25:37  <Alberth> so it might not be possible currently
20:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> transmitters are technically "objects"
20:26:10  <Alberth> yeah, but objects can't be build either, I think
20:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea
20:26:28  <Alberth> or at least I failed to find how
20:27:03  <Alberth> what could work is add tracks of another company
20:27:51  <andythenorth> can bridge over those
20:27:55  <andythenorth> hmm
20:28:05  <andythenorth> we need cliffs :P
20:28:10  <Alberth> oh, it's not about stopping you
20:28:23  <Alberth> it's just letting you know where the border is :p
20:28:45  <Alberth> ie you can fly over transmitters too
20:28:52  * andythenorth wonders if there are bits free 
20:29:13  <andythenorth> for an allowed to build / not allowed to build flag per company
20:29:22  <andythenorth> probably quite complex
20:29:28  <Alberth> "buildable" bit for all companies?  no
20:29:42  <andythenorth> maybe just limiting stations would work
20:29:48  <Alberth> but you don't really want to specify that per tile
20:30:04  <Alberth> as it's always big areas
20:30:13  <andythenorth> I would sooner divide the map into regions, and have a cb on building a station or so
20:30:21  <Alberth> not paying you for transport would work :p
20:30:26  <andythenorth> ha
20:30:38  <andythenorth> make cdist refuse to route cargo :P
20:31:47  <Alberth> I had that problem in the BB game too, but it was due to a town stopping accepting goods, when I was at 96% :p
20:31:47  <sim-al2> The support topics would be interesting
20:32:14  <Alberth> support?
20:32:45  <sim-al2> Oh forum topics :p
20:34:08  <Alberth> likely the game will be able to tell you where you're supposed to build or connect to :p
20:37:24  <Alberth> "police confiscated your revenue on the transport between X and Y, as it was not approved by the central world council"
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20:38:14  <Alberth> or a news message "you got fined by X amount for illegal transport from A to B"
20:38:56  <sim-al2> lol
20:39:16  <Alberth> hmm, that would be feasible, even
20:42:50  <andythenorth> sanctions
20:45:19  <Alberth> you don't know how much you received for the transport, but just make it high enough :p
20:45:49  <Alberth> hmm, could that info get added to the cargo monitor?
20:46:33  <Alberth> theoretically, it should be possible
20:47:03  <Alberth> nn
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22:44:45  <Wolf01> 'night
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