Log for #openttd on 2nd November 2016:
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01:01:06  <Jynxs> hello world
01:01:20  <Jynxs> looking for help
01:02:42  <ST2> as said in channel topic: Don't ask to ask, just ask!
01:02:43  <ST2> xD
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01:13:38  <Jynxs> thanks ST2 for helping in game
01:14:59  <ST2> yw :)
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09:00:38  <Wolf01> o/
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10:01:02  <Wolf01> Drawing chan stats graphs?
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12:59:21  <ElleKitty> *waves waves to everyone*
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13:52:18  <supermop> yo
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13:54:11  <ElleKitty> *picks up supermop*
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13:54:25  <ElleKitty> *mops around til it's once more clean. super clean.*
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13:55:23  <ElleKitty> *sets supermop aside again*
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13:58:05  <supermop> i see
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14:01:00  <ElleKitty> supermop Oh, hello.
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15:05:27  <ElleKitty> Ethereal_Whisper Oh... Are you a pony?
15:05:49  <ElleKitty> *ducks*
15:06:08  * Ethereal_Whisper throws a snowball at ElleKitty 
15:06:33  <ElleKitty> *has preemptively ducked; it's a miss*
15:07:45  <ElleKitty> *sticks tongue out at Ethereal_Whisper*
15:07:51  <Ethereal_Whisper> :P
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15:38:30  <Wolf01> o/
15:38:36  <Alberth> hi hi
15:42:27  <crem> o/
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15:53:39  <Ethereal_Whisper> Hello
15:53:47  <Ethereal_Whisper> I think my huge main station hub is a little overkill
15:53:48  <Ethereal_Whisper> Lol
15:54:08  <Ethereal_Whisper>
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16:04:12  <supermop> Ethereal_Whisper: looks like a circuit board
16:04:34  <Ethereal_Whisper> Haha
16:08:53  <Alberth> we're missing the option to turn the world upside down, so we can see the other side of the PCB :)
16:10:05  <goodger> psh, as if the universe runs on through-hole circuitry
16:12:04  <Alberth> maybe a black hole is a diode :)
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16:28:22  <andythenorth> o.
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16:29:10  <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you see I fixed the merge?
16:31:19  <Wolf01> Nope, but good
16:31:46  <andythenorth> there is an edge case where reverting a merge makes it hard to get the commits back in later
16:31:57  <andythenorth> because they get -1 applied, basically, on the tree
16:32:11  <andythenorth> but that’s solvable, and I know it’s going to come up
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16:57:33  <Alberth> o/
16:58:18  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
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17:25:03  <Alberth> o/
17:25:22  <Wolf01> Quak
17:25:48  <frosch123> hoi
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18:01:25  <supermop> coffee
18:07:15  * andythenorth plays openttd
18:08:23  * V453000 writes a blog
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18:12:01  <frosch123> vvv instead of fff this week?
18:16:17  <V453000> xd
18:16:31  <V453000> I didn't say what kind of blog :P
18:21:33  <supermop> andythenorth: GS?
18:21:41  <andythenorth> no
18:21:44  <andythenorth> trying sandbox
18:21:50  <andythenorth> probably won’t last long before I get bored
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18:28:43  <Alberth> use maglev for everything :p
18:29:31  <andythenorth>
18:30:39  <Alberth> stacked bridge, train, good sun light, it only misses some steam
18:30:41  <supermop> NSFW andy
18:31:22  <Wolf01> :o
18:38:29  * andythenorth makes horse
18:40:08  <andythenorth> horse needs cargo sprite generator
18:40:17  <andythenorth> lacking cargos
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18:53:31  <andythenorth> is NRT?
18:53:40  * andythenorth could poke at sprites tonight
18:53:43  <andythenorth> for an hour or so
18:53:49  <andythenorth> Wolf01 frosch123 ^
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19:01:23  <andythenorth> is it fun playing on a bigger map?
19:01:42  <andythenorth> I am on 512x128, with high industry density
19:02:04  <andythenorth> this iron horse roster is designed to provoke long trains (narrow gauge, low capacity)
19:04:18  <andythenorth> big maps seem weird
19:04:23  <ElleKitty> I like to play on smaller maps when I'm alone (or my private servers). It's cozier, and I'm more motivated to use everything on the map, instead of just picking the best stuff, leaving 90% of the map untouched
19:04:34  <andythenorth> 512x512 is vast
19:04:40  <andythenorth> route building must be so boring
19:05:05  <V453000> 256x256 can accomodate a fuckload of trains already :>
19:06:06  <ElleKitty> I also do a low amount of towns. Just my preference. Because most of my towns end up unused anyway, and I dont like the industry to be TOO overcrowded either
19:06:34  <V453000> shitload to transport = shitload of trains
19:06:35  <V453000> == win
19:06:40  <ElleKitty> I cant remember, but I think that my current settings are... Low towns, Normal industries
19:07:20  <ElleKitty> V453000 I am kinda susceptible to overload. As in, too much of the good thing.
19:07:42  <V453000> weakling!
19:07:50  <V453000> MOAR rules
19:07:53  <andythenorth> empty map
19:07:55  <ElleKitty> V453000 My Factorio production lines are equally cozy and unjammable... but I dont know how to scale up >.<
19:07:55  <Ethereal_Whisper> Yeah, I was playing a 1024x1024 game last week, got to over 1200 trains (TL 5) and my quad track ML was jamming like fuck
19:07:56  <andythenorth> looks like cheating
19:08:00  <andythenorth> where’s the challenge
19:08:03  <Ethereal_Whisper> I started a new one instead of fixing it lol
19:08:05  * andythenorth looks at a vast empty map
19:08:17  <andythenorth> but, these trains are very slow
19:08:18  <andythenorth> so eh
19:08:23  <andythenorth> maybe it will take ages to make money
19:08:34  <ElleKitty> andythenorth Cheating, which one of us?
19:08:38  <Ethereal_Whisper> Now I'm playing a 2048x2048 game in which I started with a LLLRRR mainline from the start
19:08:49  <Alberth> that's a disadvantage of large maps, you need fast trains to make use of it
19:08:54  <Ethereal_Whisper> andythenorth, make planes if you don't want to worry about money :P
19:08:56  <V453000> Ethereal_Whisper: we had 8L_8R on 256x256
19:09:08  <Ethereal_Whisper> V453000, was that PZG2013?
19:09:16  <V453000> no, the last pro zone game
19:09:33  <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, 2013 was a death feeder so the ML was an anticlockwise loop wasn't it?
19:09:44  <V453000> kind of
19:09:57  <Ethereal_Whisper> I read your blog entry about it the other night
19:09:59  <Ethereal_Whisper> Good read :)
19:09:59  <V453000> was more of death than feeder
19:10:03  <V453000> :)
19:10:29  <Ethereal_Whisper> I figured out an all to all entry to a terminus station with my 3 incoming lanes
19:10:43  <V453000> that can get real fucked yes
19:10:44  <Ethereal_Whisper> It's slow and has some blocks but it's about the best I can do without terraforming half the map
19:11:09  <V453000> I think I did 4 line terminus once, decided to never do it again
19:11:14  <V453000> but maybe it was not a terminus
19:11:18  <V453000> can't remember
19:11:29  <andythenorth> I prefer fast trains on a small map, they clear sections faster
19:11:30  <V453000> ... I probably did it again, too
19:11:37  <andythenorth> on a big map, they have line to themselves
19:11:47  <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, as a main pickup station, I figure I can kinda screw over the entry, give it more trains than strictly necessary (with overflows on the entry lanes to not block the MSL) as a solution, so long as it has quick exits
19:11:56  * andythenorth tries big map, see if game lasts 30 years :P
19:11:59  <andythenorth> last one lasted 1 year
19:12:30  <Ethereal_Whisper> That's my philosophy on main stations. Drop station = fast entry, long exits to not block platforms behind them, but the exit can be slow-ish
19:12:39  <Ethereal_Whisper> Main pickup station = entry can be slow, quick exits
19:12:54  <andythenorth> ach, I reverted my tropic map patch
19:13:02  <andythenorth> so I have 512x512 of flat desert
19:13:05  <andythenorth> how boring
19:13:09  <andythenorth> tropic map gen is offensive :P
19:13:35  <V453000> SmatZ made me a version of OpenTTD which uses arctic gen in tropic
19:13:38  <V453000> it's old as fuck though
19:14:13  <andythenorth> I patched mine to use temperate
19:14:20  <Ethereal_Whisper> Likewise on sidelines, if there are any shenanigans about getting back on the sideline's main double track, they can take a convoluted route to enter the station for all I care, as long as they make it back onto the SL after exiting quickly
19:14:43  <V453000> right :D
19:15:07  <Ethereal_Whisper> I really don't care what empty trains do as long as they aren't blocking full trains
19:15:20  <Ethereal_Whisper> They can go on a dumb loop around the industry to get back into the station
19:15:32  <V453000> use refit, don't have empty trains :>
19:15:33  <V453000> huehuehue
19:15:41  <Ethereal_Whisper> Never
19:15:45  <V453000> wat
19:16:07  <Ethereal_Whisper> One exception to that is at main stations, I'll have the empty trains going back to the primary pickups have right of way over the full trains coming out of the main station
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19:16:44  <Ethereal_Whisper> Otherwise I could create a jam where the empty trains can't leave the drop station, therefore no cargo is being produced, then the pickup station jams, then it's a clusterfuck
19:17:36  <V453000> meh, can be solved by overflows or ... refit :P
19:18:36  <andythenorth> ugh
19:18:46  <andythenorth> map gen keeps building port industries in small closed seas
19:18:48  <andythenorth> looks dumb
19:18:49  <Ethereal_Whisper> I guess I'm never serving this farm:
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19:19:22  <Ethereal_Whisper> Wait I'm using slugs this game and CL doesn't matter
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19:22:16  <andythenorth> someone told me that this water industry thing can be solved
19:22:18  <andythenorth> was it Eddi|zuHause ?
19:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i possibly said something...
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19:25:24  <Alberth> firs and dying industries?
19:25:54  <V453000> primaries should fuck off if you shit on them for long enough
19:26:20  <andythenorth> ach, might have to make my own map :(
19:26:25  <andythenorth> that’s absolutely awful
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19:47:45  <andythenorth> victory
19:47:47  <andythenorth> found a map
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20:17:26  <andythenorth> TL5 is boring
20:17:30  * andythenorth uses TL12
20:17:38  <Alberth> :)
20:17:39  <andythenorth> and if I get supplies, it will be TL20
20:17:43  <andythenorth> or more
20:18:07  <andythenorth> this
20:18:08  <Alberth> map is also 2-3 times as large?
20:18:39  <andythenorth> map is 512X512
20:18:41  <andythenorth> GIANT
20:19:23  <Alberth> must be boring to drive that ore train
20:19:51  <Ethereal_Whisper> If you ever get into hills/curves, probably not
20:19:51  <andythenorth> unless you stack it up
20:19:57  <andythenorth> then it gets very interesting
20:19:59  <Ethereal_Whisper> More axles = more crap that can go wrong
20:20:20  * andythenorth builds train line across 400 tiles
20:20:24  <andythenorth> unusual
20:20:30  <andythenorth> usual is 32 tiles or so :P
20:20:33  <Alberth> loooong way
20:21:01  <Ethereal_Whisper> Here's a boring portion of my mainline, andythenorth :
20:21:12  <andythenorth> ha
20:21:27  <andythenorth> mine are single track
20:21:31  <andythenorth> with passing loops
20:21:55  <Ethereal_Whisper> Sextuple track ftw
20:25:51  <andythenorth> oops
20:25:55  * andythenorth built a double track
20:25:59  <andythenorth> got confused :P
20:29:28  <andythenorth> 1 engine
20:29:31  <andythenorth> 15 tile train
20:29:35  <andythenorth> will it go slow? :P
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20:29:56  <Ethereal_Whisper> It'll slow to a crawl going uphill and accelerate very poorly
20:30:02  <Ethereal_Whisper> Depending on the tractive effort of the loco
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20:30:51  <Ethereal_Whisper> I just built a really dumb station
20:30:56  <Ethereal_Whisper> It works, but it's dumb
20:31:06  * andythenorth experiments
20:31:36  <Ethereal_Whisper> One platform exits terminal-style (same direction it entered) and the other platform exits RoRo style
20:31:37  <Ethereal_Whisper> RIP
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20:36:09  <Ethereal_Whisper> Cargo payment rates in this climate kinda suck
20:36:48  <andythenorth> is FIRS?
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20:39:05  <Ethereal_Whisper> Yeah
20:39:10  <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm using the "in a hot country" setting
20:39:47  <Ethereal_Whisper> Granted, I think the cargos I started building my network around (maize, cassava, fruit, nuts, food) are all time-sensitive so there's a sweet spot of time in transit to maximize the cargo payment rate
20:39:49  <supermop> less $ encourages you to build less infrastructure?
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20:40:04  <supermop> maybe andy planned it as a feature
20:40:07  <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, I have 5 million after 35 years
20:41:06  <supermop> andythenorth: add corruption to IAHC
20:41:13  <Ethereal_Whisper> Of course, like any other game I started off by building airports on opposite sides of the map, running a plane between them with the highest passenger capacity available, and planning out my network while the game was running
20:41:29  <supermop> so Ethereal_Whisper has to use all their money paying off officials
20:41:42  <Ethereal_Whisper> I think I generated about  million in aircraft revenue before I even selected which industry to build my first drop station to serve
20:41:43  <andythenorth> I am playing same economy
20:41:49  <andythenorth> I don’t pay that much attention to payment rates
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20:42:08  <andythenorth> just try and make them so the chart looks about right
20:42:12  <supermop> translate string so it is "taxes" in one economy, "graft" in another
20:42:35  <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, food is a time-sensitive cargo I'd imagine with the payment rates
20:43:01  <supermop> maybe taxes and bribes have interesting differences in the way they scale
20:43:09  <Ethereal_Whisper> So I had a 4-tile train (which translates to 6 wagons since it's a dual-headed loco) just deliver a load of food from literally one corner of the map almost all the way to the other, and it paid 2k
20:43:26  <Ethereal_Whisper> On a 2048x2048 map
20:43:36  <supermop> probaably all the food spoiled
20:43:58  <Ethereal_Whisper> In contrast I've played on 512x512 maps where a metal train going from one corner to the other, 5 tiles long, earned about 0k per drop
20:44:03  <supermop> same train on a 256x256 map pays more i bet
20:44:15  <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm even in 2085 so inflation is a thing
20:44:29  <supermop> inflation is broken
20:44:38  <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, except for the very early part of the game, money's never an issue in OpenTTD
20:44:56  <Ethereal_Whisper> The challenge (and fun) to me is to build flowing cargo networks
20:45:13  <supermop> by design it only 'works' for original industries, original map size, original game era, and original vehicles
20:45:47  <supermop> but it primarily works by effectively reducing cargo payment rates over time
20:46:09  <Ethereal_Whisper> Good, fast cargo flow is ultimately more profitable anyway, but if I were on the board for a transit company in real life who said "let's widen our double track mainline to quadruple track because we'll eventually make more money" they'd tell me to fuck off
20:46:24  <supermop> so the same trainload at the same speed pays less in 2050 than in 1950
20:46:41  <supermop> less in real costs, more in nominal dollars
20:47:12  <Ethereal_Whisper> I'd imagine that's because you're expected to deliver it faster
20:47:58  <Ethereal_Whisper> Compared to the base game, using the train set I'm using (mostly so I could use a type of train that goes full speed through even a curve length of 1), I'm using 131mph trains in 2085
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20:48:15  <supermop> Ethereal_Whisper:
20:48:16  <Ethereal_Whisper> If this were vanilla they'd be expecting me to use 300mph or 400mph trains (Lev3 or Lev4)
20:48:21  <supermop> yeah
20:48:34  <supermop> and they would expect you to stop playing in 2050
20:48:39  <Ethereal_Whisper> I don't really like the Lev4 though, I'll use the Lev3 if I'm playing late-game vanilla
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20:49:08  <Ethereal_Whisper> With the Lev4's poor acceleration, if I don't want to jam my backbone I have to give very long priorities, which ends up jamming my side lines instead
20:50:27  <supermop> 'real' inflation has some interesting motivational effects though, even without the inescapable penalties of TT inflation
20:50:28  * andythenorth has 35mph trains on 400 tile long routes
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20:51:03  <supermop> in that economist mainly see inflation as a tool to encourage spending and investment in by discouraging sitting on piles of cash
20:51:11  <Ethereal_Whisper> I need to find a copper refinery to start delivering to
20:51:40  <andythenorth> Ethereal_Whisper: deliver it to mine?
20:51:42  <supermop> hence why bank of japan has been desperately trying to weaken the yen to reach 2% inflation for 6 years now
20:51:45  <Ethereal_Whisper> Never
20:51:46  <andythenorth> mine needs more copper
20:52:18  <andythenorth> err
20:52:24  <andythenorth> what changed in station loading?
20:52:30  <supermop> Japanese economy is slow because people and companies have plenty of money and just save it
20:52:35  <andythenorth> now a train arrives with a refit order
20:52:37  <andythenorth> and it loads
20:52:55  <andythenorth> it used to not do that
20:53:06  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's a symptom, not a cause
20:53:30  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: kind of both, in a circle
20:53:53  <andythenorth> am I just seeing coincidence, or did someone fix it?
20:53:57  * andythenorth looks in logs
20:54:42  <supermop> also weak yen helps exports too of course, but Japan has a problem with lack of domestic consumer and corporate spending despite significant wealth and stability
20:55:20  <andythenorth> maybe it’s coincidence
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20:55:46  <andythenorth> longer trains
20:56:00  <supermop> and has the problem that foreign investors buy the yen as a safe haven, which keeps propping up it's value
21:00:44  <supermop> but i mean that would still provide some incentive in the game - you have 0M in 1950? Great, better spend it now because 0M in 1980 barely buys you anything
21:01:06  <supermop> even if costs and revenue grow somewhat proportionally
21:02:06  <supermop> and maybe the actual rate fluctuates according to the smooth economy setting
21:02:48  <supermop> because if there is a global recession, train driver salaries probably stay flat
21:03:25  <Alberth> they never strike anyway :p
21:04:24  <supermop> Alberth: also because you built such a great network, now they can commute from a distant small town instead of having to rent an expensive apartment in the city too
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21:06:30  <Ethereal_Whisper> I grew up in suburbia, but the metro area I grew up in had shit for transport
21:06:32  <Ethereal_Whisper> (Phoenix)
21:07:14  <Ethereal_Whisper> Our definition of transport was shitty freeways that were always jammed unless you drove on them at 3 a.m.
21:07:22  <Ethereal_Whisper> Anyway, I need to go cut some firewood
21:07:29  <supermop> Ethereal_Whisper: they have a new train now though, right?
21:08:15  <supermop> andythenorth: baux and chem from bulk terminal is boring in big economy
21:08:41  <supermop> 1 train from terminal to alu plant and you've got full production right away
21:08:52  <andythenorth> ha
21:08:55  <supermop> unless that is intended for bootstrapping
21:08:58  <andythenorth> didn’t think of that
21:09:04  <andythenorth> needed more bauxite
21:09:05  <supermop> bc thats how i start every game now
21:09:07  <andythenorth> needed more chemicals
21:09:16  <andythenorth> big economy is screwed every which way
21:09:23  <andythenorth> play it with BusyBee, or don’t play it :)
21:10:02  <supermop> play it for passengers and treat the industries as incidental decoration
21:10:15  <supermop> slash town growth tools
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21:18:56  <supermop> saw a great book for you the other day andythenorth
21:20:50  <supermop>
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21:21:58  <andythenorth> nice photos
21:22:09  <supermop> its a stunningly beautiful book
21:22:33  <supermop> but also has interesting documentation of very old lime kilns
21:22:39  <supermop> like 18th C
21:22:44  <supermop> through 1960s
21:25:00  <andythenorth> oops
21:25:01  <andythenorth> TL20
21:25:05  <andythenorth> but loops were TL18
21:27:28  <supermop> honk honk
21:36:21  <andythenorth> “primary (refit) -> secondary (refit) -> dropoff somehwere near primary” is crap on long routes
21:36:29  <andythenorth> station rating is so low at secondary
21:38:53  <supermop> need something timetables to be waiting there whenever train isnt
21:39:03  <supermop> heqs mining truck
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21:39:06  <andythenorth> pigley
21:39:10  <andythenorth> piglet *
21:39:13  <andythenorth> :P
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21:39:50  <supermop> can i generate more rivers?
21:40:00  <andythenorth> or that FIRS station rating hack
21:40:05  <andythenorth> which I removed
21:40:13  <andythenorth> it was made for these long routes with slow trains :P
21:40:14  <supermop> this isn't enough and dont want to manually draw them in
21:40:42  <andythenorth> no you can’t generate more rivers :)
21:40:56  <supermop> :(
21:41:07  <supermop> i will just have to cry them
21:41:14  <argoneus> good evening train friends
21:41:22  <supermop> D,:
21:42:44  <andythenorth> is salt valid on a salad?
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21:45:34  <supermop> hmm i've done on an arugula salad
21:45:40  <supermop> thats rocket for you
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21:49:38  <supermop> takes forever to correct hydrologically unsound rivers and valleys
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23:38:22  <Wolf01> 'night
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