Log for #openttd on 17th November 2016:
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09:15:37  <Wolf01> Moin
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10:48:26  <Wolf01> Not sure if it's me or is impossible to align the first line of text to right in a table cell in word O_o
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11:39:56  <andythenorth> is ‘moomins’ a valid cargo for arctic?
11:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
11:50:08  <andythenorth> shame
11:56:58  <peter1138> yes
11:57:02  <peter1138> or
11:57:09  <peter1138> would they not just be passengers?
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12:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> ... was about to say something about meeples
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14:30:03  <andythenorth> moomin carriage
14:30:08  <andythenorth> first and second class moomins
14:30:19  <andythenorth> moomins used to weird me out when I was small
14:30:27  <andythenorth> but when I read it to my kids this year, it’s great
14:30:28  <andythenorth> !!
14:39:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure the term "moomin" is actually racist
14:40:19  <goodger> the 1990 anime utterly terrified me
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14:43:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause got a reference? :)
14:44:07  <Eddi|zuHause> bah... facts are so last year...
14:46:32  <goodger> I think we've heard enough from so-called experts
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15:06:49  <Alberth> hi hi
15:15:09  <supermop> maybe i should get a spotify account
15:15:40  <supermop> unless there is an openttd podcast that releases a 90 minute episode every weekday
15:23:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like a twitch stream?
15:28:05  <supermop> or like two people rambling about the game endlessly
15:32:51  <supermop> something to listen to while working
15:43:03  <supermop> andy and wolf talking about lego tecnic for an hour would suffice
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16:06:35  <Wolf01> What should be better? Not touching m4 in MakeRoadNormal or restore m4 after?
16:18:55  <Wolf01> Mmmh, the problem occur only with the normal road, which sets the tram bits
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16:25:56  <Alberth> not touching is much simpler to understand
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16:27:01  <Wolf01> It seem to remove the roadtype anyway, blue road -> roadstop -> remove roadstop -> normal road
16:27:20  <Wolf01> If I restore the roadtype I get blue road again
16:27:56  <Wolf01> BTW, normal road seem to have weird effects
16:28:47  <Wolf01> Normal road is "0" so it's confusing when there is no road or normal road
16:29:08  <Wolf01> As m4 = 0 is not a "reset"
16:30:01  <Wolf01> With all the other combinations it works, but with normal road/tram screws up
16:31:04  <Wolf01> For example, if I build a tram station on normal road, I lose the road as 0 + tram is tram
16:31:17  <Alberth> chaos!  :)
16:31:19  <Wolf01> Even if m5 bits are set O_o
16:31:37  <Wolf01> Yes, chaos
16:34:31  <Wolf01> New version, fixed restoring of roadtypes (other than original road) when removing the roadstop
16:39:30  <Wolf01> I changed the HarRoadTypeRoad/Tram functions to avoid recursion in RoadTypeIdentifiers, maybe I did something wrong
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17:10:18  <Wolf01> true
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17:17:00  <Alberth> :)
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18:26:28  <Alberth> frosch123: while working on the terkhen scenario data format, I wondered if we can actually rebuild industries (and possibly other newgrf controlled instances too). I would think a newgrf could check for conditions, such as nearby other industry or so, which at the time of recreating the scenario, may not exist. Don't we run the risk that the newgrf refuses to create an industry?
18:26:55  <Alberth> If so, doesn't that imply that the scenario format is not going to fly?
18:27:25  <Alberth> At least I don't see how to fix something like that
18:29:28  <frosch123> firs farm clusters are such an example :)
18:29:57  <Alberth> think so
18:30:23  <frosch123> anyway, does the scenario format reference explicit industry types?
18:30:25  <Alberth> you can continue trying until it succeeds, which in some cases would work
18:30:47  <frosch123> actually, there is a flag "build in scenario editor"
18:30:59  <frosch123> which should ignore the weird restrictions
18:31:15  <frosch123> if the grf refuses the be build in scenario editor, well, then bad luck :)
18:31:16  <Alberth> current format doesn't do indutries afaik
18:31:35  <Alberth> it's a "future extension" :)
18:31:40  <frosch123> so, if you want to position specific industry types, i would go for the "scenario editor flag"
18:31:54  <Alberth> yeah, that should work
18:32:00  <frosch123> that will still fail if the slope does not fit etc. but otherwise it's the best there is
18:32:39  <Alberth> if you copy the position from the scenario editor, the slope will likely work :)
18:33:05  <Alberth> I am not that worried that info from 3rd party tools doesn't work
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18:33:26  <Alberth> but if you have made a scenario, you'd really like to have round-trip working
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18:33:41  <NGC3982> I'm awake!
18:34:02  <Alberth> nothing here, it's safe to go to sleep again
18:34:29  <NGC3982> Ok!
18:34:31  <frosch123> are you only awake or did you awoke?
18:34:43  <NGC3982> Awokened.
18:35:00  <Alberth> he heard people discuss at the Internet :p
18:35:32  <Alberth> well ok, frosch123, your idea should be sufficient at first, thanks
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18:56:52  <andythenorth> also hi
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19:02:01  <supermop> yo
19:03:24  <frosch123> lo
19:05:08  <andythenorth> I should draw some NRT stuff?
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19:07:59  <frosch123> drive-in-stop overlay?
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19:11:32  <frosch123> <- something to put on top of 976-979 to make the road red/blue/yellow
19:12:22  <frosch123> but i have no idea how fixed that shape is
19:12:30  <frosch123> i.e. how it looks in other basesets
19:13:27  <andythenorth> I’m going to assume it’s fixed
19:13:38  <andythenorth> it has to match the state machine at least
19:13:49  <andythenorth> we need the shape with or without pavements?
19:16:27  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ :)
19:16:51  <frosch123> without pavement, same as for the other roads
19:17:01  <andythenorth> ok I’ll clip that off
19:17:05  <frosch123> original baseset looks very similar
19:21:04  <andythenorth> ok, they’re not very logical shapes w.r.t to pixels used
19:21:10  <andythenorth> I am going to overlook that for now
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19:28:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: I’ve pushed sprites for them in red, yellow and blue roads
19:28:59  <andythenorth> dunno which sprites they correspond to, so I didn’t edit the nml yet
19:38:40  <andythenorth> supermop: oats for arctic? o_O
19:38:46  <andythenorth> or more generic, grain, which already exists :P
19:39:11  <supermop> oats not exclusively cold enough?
19:39:28  <supermop> i think rye is better as a cold climate grain
19:39:28  <andythenorth> apparently the finest oats are swedish
19:39:37  <andythenorth> the long summer days make them grow up high
19:39:40  <supermop> unless you want oats -> livestock feed
19:39:41  <andythenorth> rye also works
19:39:53  <andythenorth> but IRL oats are a much bigger crop
19:40:18  <supermop> how will oats be different from grain in game?
19:40:40  <supermop> unless as stock feed
19:40:40  <andythenorth> not really
19:40:45  <andythenorth> it might just be grain
19:40:54  <supermop> stockfeed could work
19:41:01  <andythenorth> I’m only adding it because farm -> food is a bit dull
19:41:03  <frosch123> how about maple sirup?
19:41:07  <andythenorth> ho ho
19:41:11  <supermop> farm -> fmsp -> farm
19:41:11  <andythenorth> maple syrup refinery
19:41:15  <frosch123> or is canadian not artic?
19:41:18  <andythenorth> it might be
19:41:22  <andythenorth> it was scandinavia
19:41:26  <andythenorth> now I might just be making it up
19:41:32  <andythenorth> ‘northern stuff'
19:41:47  <supermop> rename current arctic to scandinavian basic
19:41:56  <andythenorth> that is…controversial
19:42:03  <andythenorth> I have some problems with players
19:42:18  <andythenorth> if it was called ‘reduced Finland’ it might be ok
19:42:20  <frosch123> supermop: then all the scanadians nerds complain abuot the fish economy on the forums
19:42:52  <andythenorth> it was made with Kyosuke who is Finnish
19:43:20  <supermop> scandinavia/ boreal canadan / alaska / Kamchatka / siberia are all too different to homogenize to anyone's satisfaction
19:43:48  <andythenorth> I figure just make cargos that look nice
19:43:54  <frosch123> fur
19:43:57  <andythenorth> or use a wide range of wagons
19:44:01  * andythenorth checks plan
19:44:18  <andythenorth>
19:44:25  <andythenorth> Sulfur = tank wagons
19:44:29  <andythenorth> Clay = hoppers
19:44:37  <andythenorth> ENSP, FMSP = supply wagons
19:44:43  <andythenorth> Food = refrigerated wagons
19:44:49  <andythenorth> Goods = box wagons
19:44:54  <andythenorth> Mail = mail van
19:45:00  <andythenorth> Paper = flatbed with paper
19:45:09  <andythenorth> pyrite = hoppers
19:45:14  <andythenorth> wood = flatbed with logs
19:45:40  <andythenorth> alcohol = edibles tanker
19:45:48  <andythenorth> fish = fishing boat
19:45:57  <andythenorth> MNSP = blah blah blah
19:46:07  <andythenorth> explosives = ??? armoured mail van?
19:46:16  <andythenorth> potash = covered hopper
19:46:23  <andythenorth> fertiliser = covered hopper
19:46:31  <andythenorth> gold = mail van
19:46:35  <Alberth> you don't want heavy armour around explosives :p
19:46:44  <andythenorth> lumber = flat bed with visible cargo
19:47:07  <andythenorth>
19:47:23  <Alberth> open wagon is much safer when shit hits the fan :p
19:47:39  <andythenorth> grain = covered hopper
19:47:48  <andythenorth> hmm, too many mail vans :P
19:47:55  <Alberth> yeah, likely build such that the roof gets blown away
19:48:13  <Alberth> *built
19:48:49  * andythenorth considering wood chips
19:48:57  <andythenorth> paper is made from them
19:49:03  <andythenorth> peat? as fuel?
19:49:27  <andythenorth> visible cargo / wagon choice is a much more interesting way to decide the economy
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19:50:12  <frosch123> what happend to trash metal?
19:51:50  <andythenorth> no metal chain
19:52:26  <andythenorth> pyrite can be processed to a range of things…copper, gold, nickel
19:52:42  <andythenorth> nickel would at least be visible
19:53:38  <frosch123> pocket watches
19:54:28  <frosch123> i have no idea what nickel is used for :)
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19:56:08  <andythenorth> me neither
19:57:01  <andythenorth>
19:58:39  <andythenorth> goes into stainless steel mostly, it seems
19:59:22  <andythenorth>
20:00:42  <supermop> TITANIUM?
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20:03:08  * andythenorth researches it
20:03:57  <Eddi|zuHause>
20:04:13  <andythenorth> supermop:
20:04:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: :)
20:05:17  <andythenorth> anyone good at chemistry?
20:05:22  * andythenorth struggles to follow it well
20:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the questions are (in order): "are you childish", "are you nervous", "are you paranoid" and "are you drunk"
20:05:57  <supermop> Years ago maybe
20:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone good at metaquestions?
20:06:53  <supermop> Ti not should probably not be metal
20:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i've written programs that handle hydrochloric acid
20:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> does that mean i've in-depth knowledge about it? probably not
20:07:17  <supermop> unless you want really fancy cans for your tinned fish and beer
20:07:53  <supermop> ore->Ti-> fighter jets and golf clubs
20:08:10  <supermop> ->white paint
20:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you use Titatnium for things that need to be strong like steel but also light like aluminium
20:09:08  <andythenorth> titanium would be exported
20:09:21  <andythenorth> ‘pacific northwest’ economy could import it for airplanes
20:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's probably not enough of it going around to make 6 mrd cars from
20:10:24  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: in regular firs i end up making everything out of aluminum
20:10:35  * andythenorth trying to understand fertiliser production
20:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> they're not very sturdy cars, i'm assuming :p
20:10:59  <supermop> bulk terminal -> alu plant = make all the Al you want
20:11:06  <andythenorth> I have sulfur, do I need potash or phosphate?
20:11:22  <supermop> presumably my trains should derail a lot more in warm weather too
20:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i've not played with the last few... dozen... iterations of FIRS
20:12:28  <andythenorth>
20:13:09  <andythenorth> probably need phosphate :P
20:13:50  <andythenorth> but phosphate is an import cargo, too many import cargos is boring
20:18:53  <andythenorth> to put it another way, is sulphur used in non-phosphate fertiliser?
20:19:51  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a lot of sulphur in eggs
20:20:07  <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure if that's what you wanted to know)
20:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically why eggs are yellow, and why rotten eggs smell so bad
20:21:34  <frosch123> and what do chickens eat that contains sulfur?
20:21:58  <frosch123> or do they extract it from diesel cars?
20:22:46  <andythenorth> they eat eggs silly
20:22:55  <andythenorth> where else would it come from?
20:28:06  <frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: that lists the same sulfur percentage for egg and egg-white
20:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that a problem?
20:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the colour depends not only on the content, but also on the structure
20:29:34  <frosch123> the real question is whether peanuts and geese are actually fish
20:29:59  <frosch123> there are a lot of fish at the top of the list
20:31:15  <andythenorth> eggs are not a FIRS cargo
20:31:28  <andythenorth> hmm also
20:31:34  <andythenorth> macports maintainer offering some help
20:31:37  <andythenorth> he’s german
20:59:11  <supermop> andythenorth: chips needs the rotary tipple seen at bottom of
20:59:57  <andythenorth> it would be lame :)
21:00:03  <andythenorth> it can’t actually rotate the wagons
21:00:21  <supermop> its indoors though so i guess you use your imagination
21:00:39  <supermop> need shunting patch to shunt two cars at a time into tipple
21:00:49  <supermop> slag dump also needed
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21:04:19  <supermop> firs should place more foundries next to steel mills so i can use the molten metal cars
21:06:53  <Alberth> can molten cars even drive?
21:07:50  <Alberth> gn
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21:10:35  <Eddi|zuHause> A wild SirXavius appears.
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21:21:38  <andythenorth> supermop: I end up funding them for that reason :P
21:24:39  <Wolf01> fro... already gone
21:25:24  <andythenorth> :)
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21:53:20  <andythenorth> bloody fish
21:55:10  <Wolf01> Bloody roadtypes
21:55:43  <Wolf01> RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile does not work well with base tram and base road
21:55:46  <andythenorth> still on roadstops?
21:55:52  <Wolf01> Always
21:56:48  <andythenorth> :|
21:57:47  <Wolf01> And I found the problem
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21:58:03  <Wolf01> HasRoadTypeRoad/Tram checks for != 0
21:58:14  <Wolf01> But base road and tram ARE 0
21:58:29  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a logic fail to me
21:58:33  <Wolf01> So I should check for bits instead?
22:00:27  <andythenorth> how does railtypes handle RAIL / ELRL?
22:00:37  <andythenorth> do they get assigned the labels?
22:00:41  <andythenorth> or is it bit-checking?
22:00:52  <andythenorth> (in the case where it’s defaults)
22:01:10  <Wolf01> Bit checking, but it's easy there, you don't have 2 railtypes on the same tile
22:01:37  <andythenorth> yup
22:02:08  <Wolf01> I would like to have 2 railtypes, to fix the different bits on same tile for NS/WE
22:02:55  <andythenorth> is that the case where half-tile tracks occupy the full tile?
22:03:06  <andythenorth> and different type can’t then be built on same tile?
22:03:12  <Wolf01> Yes
22:03:16  <andythenorth> that’s irritating
22:03:24  <andythenorth> might TMWFTLB though :)
22:03:27  <Wolf01> Lol... I broke diagdirection now
22:03:41  <Wolf01> I get road bits being built at the sides of the roadstop
22:03:56  <Wolf01> I think I inverted 2 bits somewhere
22:04:06  <andythenorth> :)
22:04:08  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc had a patch for that once
22:04:29  <andythenorth> ‘x had a patch’  is usually the death of the idea :D
22:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> for separating the two tracks
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22:14:36  <Wolf01> Meh, I can't even use GetRoadBits because it's MP_STATION and not MP_ROAD
22:17:02  <andythenorth> supermop:
22:17:35  <andythenorth> not right yet, just throwing it up for opinions
22:17:44  <andythenorth> there is a severe lack of farm / organic cargos
22:18:07  <andythenorth> and gold will probably switch to nickel
22:18:33  <andythenorth> and I’m not convinced by wood -> sawmill -> timber -> goods
22:24:01  <supermop> arctic circle seems less farmy than the other areas
22:25:34  <andythenorth> yair
22:25:40  * andythenorth is reading about farming in the yukon
22:25:46  <andythenorth> ‘oats are the easiest to grow'
22:25:51  <andythenorth> someone has an elk farm :P
22:26:12  <andythenorth> ‘arctic circle’ is basically a wavey-hands f*ck off to the realism nerds
22:26:48  <Wolf01> Why don't you just focus on making it playable instead of realism-rage?
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22:27:55  <Wolf01> I wouldn't care less if you bring logs directly to a paperworks instead of wood pulp
22:29:16  <andythenorth> unfortunately I have upset some scandinavians
22:29:18  <andythenorth> :(
22:29:26  <andythenorth> so I am adjusting the docs :P
22:29:29  <Wolf01> :(
22:29:55  <Wolf01> You know you don't need to make everybody happy, that's in movies and anime
22:30:09  <andythenorth> I can fix their sadness by changing the words
22:30:23  <andythenorth> the actual economy….I’m making that to suit my taste
22:31:49  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I would rely on m7 7..6, but we decided to deprecate them
22:32:24  <Wolf01> As that stored 1 for road and 2 for tram, 0 meant nothing
22:32:30  <Wolf01> 3 both
22:32:59  <andythenorth> I wondered about that
22:33:07  <andythenorth> seems like it _shouldn’t_ be needed
22:33:25  <andythenorth> those results should be possible to calculate always?
22:33:30  <Wolf01> It shouldn't be needed with 15 roadtypes instead of 16
22:33:33  * andythenorth doesn’t know how though :|
22:34:00  <Wolf01> I need to identify when 0 means nothing or means original road/tram
22:34:37  <andythenorth> nothing if there are no road bits?
22:34:43  <andythenorth> or is that not possible to detect?
22:34:49  <Wolf01> I could do it by looking at both m4+m5/m4+m3
22:34:50  <andythenorth> roadstop has no bits?
22:35:12  <andythenorth> < 20 cargos, 18 industries
22:35:15  <andythenorth> looks about right
22:35:21  <Wolf01> Eh, I could use GetRoadBits, but that asserts if TileType != MP_ROAD
22:35:32  <andythenorth> and tile is station
22:35:37  <Wolf01> So GetRoadBits is useful only on clear road
22:35:37  <andythenorth> ?
22:35:59  <Wolf01> I could do the bitcheck by hand, but then it's the same of removing the assert
22:36:07  <Wolf01> Or adding | MP_STATION
22:36:21  <andythenorth> urgh, how does the station tile store whether it’s road, tram, or both?
22:36:31  * andythenorth must to sleep :P
22:36:33  <Wolf01> m7 7..6
22:38:08  <Wolf01> m7 7..6 tells if it's road or tram, m4 what kind of road and/or tram
22:38:35  <Wolf01> m4 for stations is... something I would like to discuss
22:38:45  <Wolf01> m4: custom station id; 0 means standard graphics
22:38:58  <andythenorth> ok so either we don’t deprecate m7 7..6, or we have to have a distinction for what 0 means?
22:38:59  <Wolf01> For roadstops is always 0
22:39:47  <andythenorth> if 0 means nothing OR original road / tram, that seems confused
22:39:58  <Wolf01> That's really confused
22:40:07  * andythenorth is ignoring the custom stops question for now :)
22:40:15  <andythenorth> too many 0s
22:40:21  <Wolf01> Yes
22:40:44  <andythenorth> it’s too late for me to start reading the enums and stuff :)
22:41:03  <Wolf01> Now I'm storing roadtypes in m4, but that mean I'm abusing the bits
22:41:03  <andythenorth> also I have no fricking idea about most of the implementation :)
22:41:16  <andythenorth> maybe
22:41:35  <Wolf01>;a=blob_plain;f=docs/landscape_grid.html;h=d34fe9840c9777b4f480142714c731779537b5ac;hb=HEAD
22:42:05  <andythenorth> I read m4 as free, for roadstops
22:42:20  <Wolf01> Yes, but the specs tell another thing
22:42:28  <andythenorth> oh
22:42:36  <andythenorth> the choice of m4 was based on the grid :P
22:43:36  <andythenorth> if pushed to choose, NRT > custom road stop graphics, every time
22:43:40  <Wolf01> I would like to think again about having 16 subtypes for each roadtype
22:43:50  <andythenorth> we can have fewer, surely?
22:43:56  <andythenorth> it’s just a conventional number :P
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22:45:18  <andythenorth> you want to reduce the number of bits?  Or reserve some values to distinguish ‘default’ from ‘nothing’?
22:46:10  <Wolf01> I would just use 8 subtypes for roadtype, and the other 2 bits are to know exactly if the tile has road or tram
22:46:32  <Wolf01> Or we will still keep m7 7..6 and 16 subtypes
22:47:34  <Wolf01> When 0 has too many meanings you need to use more bits, or few features
22:47:39  <andythenorth> I originally considered 3 bits or so
22:47:49  <andythenorth> imho, 8 types is plenty
22:48:04  <Wolf01> I can't even think about more than 6 types :P
22:48:04  <andythenorth> but I was persuaded that 16 is fine, so I rewrote spec
22:48:46  <andythenorth> any types menu with more than 4 or 5 gets daft
22:49:18  <andythenorth> if this is limiting progress, try something you know might be wrong?
22:49:37  <andythenorth> if someone else strongly freels it’s wrong, they can refactor it
22:49:37  <Wolf01> Ok, transport fever has 9 types of roads + 3 types of tram, but that imply state-machines (1-2-3 lane roads)
22:50:20  <andythenorth> I am 90% certain that someone gave me a paste with 15 types, and one bit reserved for default
22:50:26  <andythenorth> but I lost that :(
22:50:32  <andythenorth> and pastebin doesn’t keep them very long
22:50:46  <andythenorth> one value, not one bit :P
22:51:26  * V453000 just spent a whole evening making models of random pipe pieces ._.
22:51:47  <andythenorth> awesome
22:51:52  <andythenorth> what could be finer? :)
22:51:58  <Wolf01> More pipes!
22:52:04  <andythenorth> I have spent the evening failing to learn about NPK fertiliser
22:52:19  <andythenorth> also bedtime, really really
22:52:27  <andythenorth>
22:52:28  <andythenorth> bye
22:52:30  <Wolf01> Factorio time
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22:52:31  <Wolf01> :P
22:52:43  <V453000> nah more of a general pipe :)
22:52:46  <V453000> factorio has it's pipes done
22:54:15  <Wolf01> I need to create the modules factory now
22:56:17  <V453000> I had a very bright idea
22:56:24  <V453000> I wanted to try to make a big train junction ASAP
22:57:08  <V453000> so I made a factory where each train station produces only 1 thing, and a specific factory layout where there is 1 central 3-way junction
22:57:16  <V453000> every single train goes over that junction
22:57:33  <V453000> and to top it off, limit cargo wagon storage size to three slots
22:58:02  <V453000> currently finishing 4 lines in each direction after like 30 hours XD
22:58:03  <Wolf01> Seem nice
22:58:10  <V453000> not producing shit
22:58:12  <V453000> almos
22:58:13  <V453000> t
22:58:18  <V453000> basically got all researches
22:58:30  <V453000> except follower count and the infinite ones (duh)
22:59:33  <Wolf01> Instead I installed a mod to get different length for underground belts: yellow = standard, red = 2x, blue 3x
22:59:40  <Wolf01> Really useful
23:00:49  <V453000> I consider that dumb
23:00:50  <V453000> but eh
23:01:05  <V453000> same as the inserter shit :P
23:01:47  <Wolf01> I know your opinion, we already had a talk about it
23:04:05  <Wolf01> I think of them as lego pieces, there's people which only build stud-on-top and don't like snot pieces, other people only build stud-less models
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