Log for #openttd on 21st December 2016:
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00:45:32  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: the dutch catenary grf pops into my head, but not sure...
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04:45:48  <XavierLight> Hey can anyone help me out with some plane problems?
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07:36:40  <xdoL> guys guys can vehicle_cost & construction_cost be set abysmally high from the .cfg ?
07:36:57  <xdoL> rather is there a way ?
07:38:19  <xdoL> trying to set a game for the long haul with really long day length and all, but the costs and interest is just too low. the game is too ez.
07:44:23  <xdoL> nvm found something that fixes my shiet
07:45:07  <peter1139> cool
07:46:35  <xdoL> well the .cfg file wasnt as flexible as i thought
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08:04:39  <peter1139> there's stuff in there but i don't remember it all
08:04:48  <peter1139> but then there are already newgrfs for it
08:08:19  <peter1139> s/already/also/
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08:37:59  <Flygon> <xdoL> guys guys can vehicle_cost & construction_cost be set abysmally high from the .cfg ?
08:38:08  <Flygon> Is this guy trying to follow Victorian Government practice?
09:15:05  <crem> \o
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10:08:10  <Wolf01> o/
10:08:25  <ZirconiumX> \o
10:13:36  <frosch123> moi
10:15:59  <Wolf01> Mmmh... forgot to cut a chunk of facial hairs...
10:16:32  <Wolf01> I'm not used to do it, I usually have a lot of facial hairs
10:17:01  <V453000> anus?
10:20:01  <Wolf01> I prefer to not speak about that
10:20:10  <Wolf01> :D
10:22:21  <Wolf01> Btw... downloading Halo Wars... also job talk this afternoon... hyped as fuck
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10:30:34  <Wolf01> Oh, today is even winter
10:35:38  <__ln__> how did you determine that
10:35:46  <Wolf01> Google
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11:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> when i look out of the window, the side of the valley that is in the sun is green, and th side of the valley that is in the shade is white
11:03:39  <Wolf01> Same happens in my garden, the part in the shadow is white, while the part in the sun is green :P
11:11:51  <Wolf01> frosch123, I'm not getting the right gui sprites, I need to cleanup something?
11:12:22  <frosch123> i added the sprites to openttd,grf, but they are not used yet
11:13:00  <frosch123> though if you use roadtypeinfo.gui_sprites.convert_road it should be fine
11:13:06  <Wolf01> Ok, btw, I'm syncing the "convert-road" branch with the latest changes
11:13:22  <Wolf01> I see only question marks, both in the button and cursor
11:13:51  <frosch123> it worked when i put them in place of the autoroad button
11:14:41  <Wolf01> I'm still getting the message about missing sprites sterting the game
11:14:49  <Wolf01> Maybe that's the reason
11:14:53  <frosch123> ah, you need to select original graphics :)
11:15:01  <Wolf01> Ok
11:15:01  <frosch123> i did not add them to opengfx
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11:42:32  <Wolf01> Btw, how could we define the compatibility between roadtypes of the same type? For example ROAD vs HAUL
11:43:16  <Wolf01> I'm trying to write a IsCompatibleRoad() function but I can't figure out how
11:43:35  <frosch123> i don't understand the question
11:44:09  <Wolf01> When converting the roadtype, we should check if the new type is compatible
11:44:52  <Wolf01> Not only between powered-unpowered, but also because they have different track system
11:45:06  <frosch123> the equivalent to IsCompatibleRail is HasPowerOnRoad
11:45:45  <Wolf01> Eh, and if you want to convert ROAD to WETR?
11:45:50  <frosch123> "compatible" and "powered" is the same for road and tram
11:45:52  <Wolf01> Both are unpowered
11:46:25  <frosch123> ROAD to WETR is the same as rail to monorail
11:46:46  <Wolf01> Yes, but I don't have a way to check it
11:46:53  <frosch123> what do you mean with "both are unpowered"?
11:47:10  <Wolf01> They don't have catenary
11:47:17  <frosch123> "powered" has nothing to do with catenary
11:47:36  <frosch123> it just means whether a vehicle of one type can drive on track of some type
11:47:58  <Wolf01> Then the naming should be CanRunOnroad/Rail
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11:48:33  <frosch123> don't invent new names for things where railtypes already have names
11:48:51  <Wolf01> I know they already are, but they are confusing
11:49:00  <frosch123> "compatible" means "can run on track, but cannot provide power, i.e. behaves like a rail wagon"
11:49:18  <frosch123> "powered" mans "can run on track, and can provide power, i.e. behaves like a rail engine"
11:49:39  <frosch123> since road vehicles have no wagons, both are the same
11:49:47  <Wolf01> It's like git where commit mean save a patch and push mean commit
11:54:46  <Wolf01> Also there's a mix of properties of the infrastructure and vehicle in the same place
11:55:12  <frosch123> same as for railtypes :)
11:56:11  <Wolf01> Yes, but it's not an excuse to avoid to use the right meaning of the words
11:56:26  <frosch123> i consider consistency more important
11:56:44  <frosch123> a single word never is fully descriptive
11:56:56  <frosch123> so you need to know the meaning anyway
11:57:42  <frosch123> i cannot tell whether CanRunOnRail means compatible or powered
11:58:01  <frosch123> so i do not see how it is better
11:58:31  <Wolf01> In fact it means both, that's why you need to have 2 functions with the right names
11:58:53  <frosch123> yes, those functions are called Compatible, and Powered
11:59:43  <Wolf01> But powered has "provides power from rail/catenary/magnets" in my head, because we are speaking about a rail
12:00:04  <Wolf01> But is instead a vehicle!
12:00:41  <Wolf01> For example IsPoweredRailType() is used in 2 different cases (both valid) while the docs tell to use it to check between vehicle and infrastructure, it's also used to check between infrastructure and infrastructure
12:01:08  <Wolf01> *IsCompatibleRailType
12:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause> what's confusing about that?
12:01:39  <Wolf01> The meaning
12:02:01  <Wolf01> Because reading the code and calling the variables A and B is easy to understand
12:03:55  <Wolf01> IsCompatibleRail(RailType enginetype, RailType tiletype); works even if you invert the arguments, with different legit results
12:05:12  <Wolf01> Calling them "cur_type" and "type_to_check_against" would be less confusing
12:05:30  <Wolf01> As when upgrading a rail you don't have an "engine"
12:05:34  <frosch123> i would claim the reverse :p
12:06:16  <frosch123> upgrading does not check whether one railtype can run on the other, but it is about checking whether "most" engines that ran on the old one, can run on the new one
12:06:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if you think mathematically, it's like extending a comparison operator like "a<b" which is defined on numbers to sets of numbers, like a < {b,c,d}
12:06:55  <frosch123> convert rail is about checking compatibility of engines to tracks
12:07:08  <Eddi|zuHause> an engine is like "a", and a railtype is like "{b,c,d}"
12:07:39  <Eddi|zuHause> now you can also compare two sets {a,b,c} < {d,e}
12:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (meaning is: all elements of the first set are smaller than all elements in the second set)
12:08:53  <Wolf01> I'm not speaking about the functionality, I'm speaking about the names, the names are confusing
12:09:14  <frosch123> i don't think so, the names are fine
12:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm saying i'm not seeing your confusion
12:09:22  <frosch123> just convert rail uses them in a weird way
12:09:30  <Wolf01> ^
12:09:39  <frosch123> convert rail does a simplified check whether an upgrade makes sense
12:09:56  <frosch123> instead it should run over all engine types, and count how many are compatible to old and new
12:10:15  <frosch123> the functions are really about checking engines vs track
12:10:30  <frosch123> that's what the game logic uses them for, and that's what newgrf authors use them for
12:10:49  <frosch123> convertrail just tries to make use of them, when deciding whether elrail->3rdrail conversion makes sense
12:11:37  <frosch123> as said, the intention of convertrail is to check whether engines, which were powered before, are powered afterwards
12:11:50  <frosch123> it does *not* check whether the tracktypes are compatible, because that makes no sense
12:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes, i think it's very much the same as what i tried to explain. the "normal" usage of "is compatible" is a < {b,c,d} where a is an enginetype and {b,c,d} is a tracktype. convert rail tries to extend that to sets of engines, so it tries to do {a,b,c} < {d,e}
12:12:52  <Wolf01> "IsEngineCompatibleRail", because with "IsCompatibleRail" I would look if the rail has the same gauge, shape, power type (magnets, catenary), which is the same of questioning if the vehicle which ran on the old one can run on the new one, but leaving out the vehicle
12:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not able to see what you find so confusing about this
12:14:00  <Wolf01> Languages difference maybe
12:14:23  <frosch123> i think the problem is that convertrail does not do an exact check, but an approximation
12:14:39  <frosch123> and wolf thinks that it would be an exact check and then complains that the check is not named like that
12:14:52  <frosch123> but it really is no exact check
12:14:53  <Wolf01> "The road in front of my house is powered" doesn't make any sense, I might answer "yes, there's light"
12:15:10  <frosch123> there is no exact check whether elrail is compatible to 3rdrail
12:15:24  <frosch123> some engines are powered on either, some on both, some on none
12:15:29  <Wolf01> The problem is that isn't the road which is powered, but it is my car which has power to run on it
12:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: no, that question doesn't make any sense, but nobody asks that question
12:15:53  <frosch123> yes, that's why it is an "appoximation", and not an "exact" check
12:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the usual question is "is this car powered on that road?"
12:16:25  <Wolf01> Nobody which knows the background of the functionality, with little docs I didn't figure out until now
12:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and convert rail asks "are ALL cars which are powered on this road also powered on the new road?"
12:17:13  <Wolf01> For me "powered_railtypes" as proterty of a railtype didn't make any sense, and I thought it was related to catenary
12:17:24  <Wolf01> Instead is a vehicle property
12:17:28  <frosch123> it is not related to catenary
12:17:29  <Wolf01> In railtype
12:17:49  <frosch123> both compatible and powered are about vehicle -> tracktype relations
12:18:46  <frosch123> since tracktype and vehicletype definitions are usually independent, the vehicle/track interaction must be defined in one place, not in both
12:19:08  <frosch123> it was put into the track definition, and imho it is also a better place than the vehicles
12:19:29  <frosch123> it has has a lot more to do with which tracktypes are available, than with which vehicle types are available
12:21:54  <Wolf01> "bitmask to the OTHER railtypes on which an engine of THIS railtype generates power" and "bitmask to the OTHER railtypes on which an engine of THIS railtype can physically travel" taken those comments, what I understand is, a steam engine can physically travel in rail and elrail? yes, can generate power in both? yes -> compatible; an electric engine can physically travel in rail and elrail?
12:21:54  <Wolf01> yes, can generate power in both? no -> not compatible, why? misses catenary
12:22:19  <Wolf01> A boat can physically travel in rail? no -> not compatible
12:23:00  <Wolf01> That's my confusion
12:23:29  <Wolf01> Maybe I miss a train which can only travel in normal rail but not elrail
12:24:11  <frosch123> andy wanted to add that case for HAUL  :)
12:24:31  <Wolf01> I know, and I didn't understand it
12:24:38  <Wolf01> Now I do
12:27:18  <frosch123> <- that's a typical rail example
12:30:12  <frosch123> <- same for roads
12:30:33  <frosch123> not that "only vehicletype" currently does not exist, but it may make sense to extend the spec to allow that
12:30:39  <frosch123> *note
12:37:03  <Wolf01> Too bad is not so easy to provide meaningful error messages
12:37:51  <Wolf01> For example you can't convert a road with elrail (tram) over it to haul because a "4 stories truck will collide with the tram catenary"
12:38:32  <Wolf01> Also I don't get why a mine truck couldn't generate power on road :P
12:39:03  <frosch123> don't try to make ottd smarter than the player
12:39:33  <frosch123> obviously the catenary is so low that it will easily go under the haul truck
12:39:36  <frosch123> so, no problem with conversion
12:40:20  <Wolf01> The game should charge your company each time a haul truck passes over the catenary for reconstruction :P
12:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> whether haul and tram can coexist on the same tile needs a new property outside the rail-derived compatible/powered
12:41:25  <frosch123> yeah, and it won't be eary if you want to allow over-head tram over canal road
12:41:29  <Wolf01> As we don't have even vehicles which can run on both road and tram (w/o road)
12:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (and there should be separate properties for "can run along the same trackbit" and "can have crossing with")
12:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> for example, if i want a tram that can run along roads, and a speed-tram that cannot run along roads, only have occasional crossings
12:43:24  <Wolf01> That was one of my ponies for roadtypes
12:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> those are pure tracktype<->tracktype relationships, not vehicle->tracktype
12:43:44  <Wolf01> Along with roads without intersections
12:44:27  <frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: which of those flags is relevant for that?
12:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think anything other than an X crossing will ask for "can run along"
12:45:28  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but i'm not too sure
12:48:54  <Wolf01> About road without intersections, to resolve the problem could be that we introduce phisical infrastructures like sound barriers or fences?
12:49:02  <Wolf01> *physical
12:49:42  <frosch123> road fences like rail fences would make sense at some point
12:50:11  <Wolf01> I mean, placeable like the "one way" feature
12:50:33  <frosch123> that is what newobjects are for
12:50:47  <Wolf01> Newobjects can't be built on road
12:50:53  <frosch123> but next to road
12:51:00  <Wolf01> You can build around it but you waste a tile
12:51:13  <frosch123> anyway, we don't stack N things on top of a tile
12:51:40  <frosch123> that creates a very closed system where everything depends on everything
12:51:44  <Wolf01> Also with 2 close roads you can't build a newobject inbetween
12:52:28  <frosch123> roadtypes can check adjacent tiles, and draw appropiate borders
12:52:44  <Wolf01> But nobody stops you to build a crossing
12:52:47  <frosch123> but that kind of stuff won't be player placeable
12:53:14  <frosch123> yeah, but why would you stop someone from building a crossing :p
12:53:47  <Wolf01> Eyecandy, roadflow
12:54:14  <frosch123> well, we talked about that before. a "exclusive owned" thing makes more sense to me
12:55:03  <Wolf01> Yes, but still not sure, I would like to keep some paths open for the future
12:55:13  <frosch123> i think those things have to wait until we have *some* road and tramtypes
12:55:32  <frosch123> many of these interaction-checks assume some very specific types, and make no sense in any other context
12:55:52  <Wolf01> Agreed
12:56:17  <frosch123> the levelcrossing flag was also not added on 1st day
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12:56:30  <frosch123> and for tram/road stuff seems to be a lot more complicated
12:56:59  <Wolf01> Some roadbits checking, I did many tries in these days with interesting results
12:57:42  <Wolf01> But without exactly knowing the meaning of the "powered_roadtypes" I wasn't able to properly do it
13:00:32  <Wolf01> Btw, the easiest pre-conversion check could be just "return IsPoweredRoad(A, B) ? IsPoweredRoad(B, A) : true;"?
13:00:50  <Wolf01> *false
13:01:24  <Wolf01> Derived from conversion cost
13:01:30  <frosch123> that is "IsPoweredRoad(A, B) && IsPoweredRoad(B, A)" ?
13:01:41  <Wolf01> Uhm, yes
13:01:44  <frosch123> i would expect "IsPoweredRoad(A, B) || IsPoweredRoad(B, A)"
13:01:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd save the "no crossings" thing for a "pipelines" type...
13:02:19  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, no crossing means also no T junctions of the same type
13:02:32  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: then i would save it for a "no gameplay" flag
13:02:44  <Wolf01> Could be the right name
13:04:01  <Wolf01> ROTF_NO_GAMEPLAY... what if we want more than one "no gameplay" to stack?
13:04:32  <Wolf01> I'll just fall back to ROTF_ONLY_OWNER
13:04:49  <Wolf01> So one could do whatever it wants without external interferences
13:08:45  <Wolf01> I've looked at vehicle movement too, to do what I want the thing needs some (read "a lot") refactoring
13:09:05  <Wolf01> Or maybe some hiding of the array
13:09:17  <Wolf01> Like the RoadTypeInfo
13:10:30  <Wolf01> Got to go, I'll be back in the evening
13:10:34  <Wolf01> Bye
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13:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how is "pipline" more  "no gameplay" than people running A-B connections with one single train and no crossings?
13:11:50  <frosch123> because i can safely ignore the latter
13:13:17  <frosch123> pipelines are also the worst part of factorio
13:13:31  <frosch123> though there are myths that it is changed to something different
13:13:37  <frosch123> though no idea what different
13:15:26  <frosch123> as myths go, it could as well just be the colour that is changed :p
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13:34:26  <V453000> lol myths
13:35:01  <V453000> pipes are the same as before
13:35:10  <V453000> except graphics
13:35:33  <frosch123> wasn't there something about preventing auto-join neighbouring pipelines?
13:35:47  <V453000> it's been talked about but nobody did it yet
13:35:58  <frosch123> yeah, "myths" :)
13:36:29  <crem> pipes? Is pipeline transport finally in openttd? Can I pump oil?
13:36:55  <frosch123> crem: there are newgrf, which add a pipeline railtype, and invisible engines that run on it
13:37:01  <frosch123> some people even play with that :)
13:37:36  <crem> That's not quite right pipes. :)
13:38:12  <crem> anyway, I didn't play openttd for years. Tried recently to play some scenarios, but none of them happen to have required dependencies available.
13:38:22  <frosch123> well, pipelines and electricity lines are even more boring than aircraft
13:38:38  <V453000> xd
13:38:39  <frosch123> aircraft are vehicles without track, pipeline/wire is track without vehicles
13:38:55  <V453000> BUT BELTS
13:39:16  <frosch123> add belts with 3 lanes :)
13:39:18  <V453000> openttd needs belts
13:39:40  <V453000> shame railtypes can't animate
13:40:07  <frosch123> we need multicore support for animating railtypes :)
13:42:13  <V453000> easy
13:42:27  <V453000> just check [ ] multithreaded game in game engine editor
13:43:06  <V453000> next problem ?
13:43:25  <frosch123> artists with more hands
13:43:31  <V453000> haha yes
13:44:00  <V453000> I actually ordered a new pen tablet pc few days ago
13:44:10  <V453000> might start drawing for openttd when in metro/bus
13:44:24  <frosch123> is it table with display, or separate tablet and display?
13:44:26  <crem> Do artists for newgrf mostly doing pixel art or 3d modelling?
13:44:35  <V453000> basically a laptop without keyboard
13:45:06  <frosch123> when i used a pen, it felt very weird to draw in front of you, but look at some other screen
13:45:17  <V453000> well yeah that's what I have been using until now
13:45:20  <V453000> it isn't that bad tbh
13:45:36  <V453000> but now I will be touching the screen :) I can even connect it to a normal PC to only use the pen display
13:46:52  <V453000> crem: it depends, but most graphics are pixel "art"
13:52:57  <Redirect_Left> Hm
13:53:08  <Redirect_Left> Is it possible to alter the production of an industry based on season
13:53:14  <Redirect_Left> well, months I guess, openttd doesn't know what a season is
13:53:41  <Redirect_Left> I'm trying to implement a theme park and other attractions GRF, that produces lots of passengers in summer, then drops to almost 0 during winter months
13:53:44  <peter1139> ok
13:53:45  <Redirect_Left> as they much would do in realirty
13:54:41  <peter1139> what's the german version of "happy birthday"?
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14:08:55  <ZirconiumX> peter1139: "Zum Geburtstag viel Glueck"
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14:15:41  <andythenorth> o/
14:16:12  <crem> \o
14:17:35  <ZirconiumX> \o
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14:21:15  <V453000> peter1139: blitzkrieg
14:22:44  <frosch123> Redirect_Left: yes it is possible, alpine climate did implement that for farms, possibly ecs as well, and it sucks for gameplay
14:23:23  <Redirect_Left> as long as you're paying attention and set up timetables, shouldn't affect suckability really
14:23:46  <Redirect_Left> i can only foresee that if I (i don't release anything, so I) stop paying attention to date
14:24:08  <frosch123> the problem is what to do with the vehicles in winter
14:24:19  <frosch123> but true, maybe timetables improved the situation
14:24:42  <frosch123> back then there was only full-load, so either you played without fullload or vehicles were waiting at 90% loaded during winter
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14:30:14  <andythenorth> ho
14:30:16  <andythenorth> much logs
14:30:27  <frosch123> quantity != quality :p
14:30:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: supermop made lots of sprites :)
14:31:06  <andythenorth> I saw :)
14:34:53  * andythenorth gets to end of logs
14:35:03  <andythenorth> one of those discussions eh? :)
14:35:07  <andythenorth> moar pipelines
14:35:14  <andythenorth> moar unitised transport, with constraints
14:48:11  <supermop__> pallet animate belts?
14:48:41  <supermop__> andythenorth: how to show power/not power on tram and road cursor
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14:49:04  <supermop__> or just not show? tram depot cursor just shows a regular road depot
14:49:41  <frosch123> imho "don't show" :)
14:50:03  <supermop__> ok
14:50:11  <supermop__> user can infer from context
14:50:37  <supermop__> just like most rail newgrf show plain rail cursor regardless of speed limit etc
14:50:53  <frosch123> i am unsure about the road depots in the viewport though
14:51:05  <frosch123> currently there is a road depot without catenary, and a tram depot with catenary
14:51:16  <andythenorth> not show
14:51:18  <andythenorth> not needed
14:51:22  <frosch123> i tried to use the tram depot for road with catenary, but the sprites include rails
14:51:39  <supermop__> thats easy enough to photoshop if you want me to
14:52:08  <supermop__> other option is to make all tram depots look more like the train depot but wider
14:52:25  <frosch123> i would be less worried about adding sprites to the default game, if the basesets were actually maintained :)
14:52:38  <supermop__> where is planetmaker ?
14:52:48  <supermop__> doesn't he do ogfx? ish?
14:53:05  <frosch123> as it is now, we will get 10 reports in the first week that zbase shows a "please upgrade" message when starting ottd when there is no upgrade
14:53:30  <supermop__> i mean we could make a zbase extra?
14:53:30  <frosch123> maybe Eddi|zuHause finishes his patch that at least the gui icons are always used from openttd.grf
14:53:37  <frosch123> but for depot sprites that does not really work
14:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i what? i don't know that word :p
14:54:47  <supermop__> like is there a method to fall back to a different base set or extra grf if sprites are missing? is that your idea Eddi|zuHause ?
14:55:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i suggested that a few years ago...
14:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there was never any work on a patch as far as i can tell
14:56:46  <supermop__> otherwise i mean, its not really your problem frosch123 , if users complain about zbase, tell them to use ogfx
14:57:11  <supermop__> or to update / fork zbase themselves
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14:57:49  <frosch123> yup, about 50% of people who mail at do not get a response, because they do not duckduck for an answer first
14:58:07  <supermop__> really, depot building and depot floor should be separate sprite though
14:58:52  <frosch123> <- 49 and 51 are the problem
14:58:59  <frosch123> wall and tracks
14:59:28  <frosch123> in theory one could mix the wall from the road depot, and the top of the tram depot
14:59:41  <frosch123> but who knows what that looks like in other basesets
15:00:06  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think something's wrong with mime types there
15:00:16  <supermop__> frosch123: thats what i am suggesting
15:00:39  <supermop__> but, one could remove the tracks from 49 and have just the bit of wall
15:01:05  <supermop__> and have game take the U from the regular tram end of line bit
15:01:16  <frosch123> yeah, that is also an option
15:01:30  <supermop__> probably most flexible
15:01:36  <frosch123> resp, that is what is done for roadstops
15:01:48  <supermop__> lmk what you want me to photoshop
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15:02:50  <frosch123> i don't think we need new sprites for the basegame right now
15:03:01  <frosch123> maybe andy has new track types in mind :)
15:06:09  <supermop__> fair enough
15:06:41  <supermop__> also i can live with transformer and insulator on top of my non-powered tram depot for now
15:09:42  <planetmaker> hm, I heard my name whispered
15:10:21  <supermop__> sorry planetmaker
15:10:27  <planetmaker> no need to be sorry
15:11:08  <supermop__> was discussing messing with the base sets
15:11:34  <planetmaker> I haven't been quite following the discussion lately, I have to admit. Can you frame me in?
15:12:19  <supermop__> well base sets only provide a tram depot with both tracks and wires, and a road depot with neither
15:12:41  <supermop__> ofc a new grf could add a new depot
15:13:10  <supermop__> but it seems that the tracks should be drawn separate from the tracks
15:13:24  <supermop__> oops, tracks separate from the building
15:14:00  <supermop__> so you can combine from existing sprites to get powered road, or unpowered tram, etc
15:14:59  <supermop__> in this case the depot would take it's tracks from the regular tram U overlay, rather than as part of the sprite that contains the back wall
15:15:01  <crem> If I want to move old trains into "museum area", is it possible to disable "train is old" notifications for them? (for individual trains, not globally)
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15:15:11  <Sharkman> hello
15:16:50  *** Sharkman has left #openttd
15:17:17  <supermop__> sharkman - he left us too soon
15:17:27  <supermop__> crem: no
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15:17:39  <supermop__> yessss
15:17:53  <supermop__> hello Sharkman_
15:17:56  <Sharkman_> hi
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15:18:40  <Sharkman_> ive been looking at tutorials for newgrf's but all are just programming, whats the thing where you change the way the game looks?
15:19:12  <frosch123> supermop__: <- i removed the tracks from the baseset
15:19:18  <frosch123> and drew them as separate layer
15:19:44  <supermop__> nice
15:20:09  <supermop__> you are making me redundant frosch123
15:20:22  <frosch123> i can draw some blue pixels :)
15:20:24  <supermop__> Sharkman_: also newgrfs
15:20:43  <Sharkman_> yeah but is there guides on making the graphics and not doing the programming?
15:20:43  <supermop__> but you must write some code to tell the game how to change how it looks
15:20:57  <andythenorth> to make the graphics, you just draw
15:21:00  <supermop__> with NML the code is less hard
15:21:04  <andythenorth> but with the right palette
15:21:10  <supermop__> Sharkman_: what andy said
15:21:21  <Sharkman_> okay i guess, i have no talent in coding or graphics, I just want to make toyland into somthing else lol
15:21:25  <andythenorth> fair
15:21:34  <andythenorth> ‘anything but toyland'
15:21:43  <supermop__> technically you don't need to use a pallette anymore, but it looks better if you do most of the time
15:21:49  <frosch123> Sharkman_: then use one of the many sets "turn toyland into something else" as base for your work
15:22:02  <Sharkman_> okay thanks, where can i find one?
15:22:06  <supermop__> Sharkman_: do you have some ideas, or just anything different will do
15:22:14  <Sharkman_> i have osme ideas
15:22:32  <supermop__> i think there was a mars conversion?
15:22:41  <Sharkman_> yeah ill use that thanks
15:22:44  <frosch123> <- i have no idea how complete that is
15:23:03  <frosch123> but depending on whether you want to do landscape or vehicles, you can also look at the other vehicle or landscape grfs
15:23:09  <supermop__> you can look at the pixel sprites and draw over them in mspaint or something
15:23:12  <Sharkman_> thanks
15:23:23  <supermop__> if you want to make small, easy changes
15:25:10  <Sharkman_> how would i decompile the grf file into sprites?
15:27:32  <supermop__> uh there is a command line tool that does that, but its easier for most projects to just use the source
15:27:59  <supermop__> mars project frosch mention will have sources at that location
15:28:16  <supermop__> opengfx also will have its sources on that site
15:29:03  <supermop__> so you can just get a png of the relevant sprites instead of a huge pcx of every sprite in the grf
15:29:30  <MonkeyDrone> frosch123: is it possible to only change the time-line on server-side by patching it with longer days and client is still able to connect with it's standard client?
15:29:35  <MonkeyDrone> o/ everyone
15:29:52  <supermop__> generally any GPL project should have the sources available somewhere or by request
15:30:22  <supermop__> and if it is closed source, you are kind of in a grey area to modify the sprites
15:30:46  <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: no
15:30:54  <MonkeyDrone> ok , thank you.
15:32:19  <supermop__> today wife quits her job
15:32:23  <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: best you can do is to make all vehicles available (by adding 10000 to the date) and then using the "hide engine" option to filter vehicle lists
15:32:43  <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: the server can then possibly also reject build commands to build those vehicles
15:33:07  <frosch123> supermop__: moving to europe?
15:33:13  <frosch123> :p
15:33:25  <MonkeyDrone> ah, ok. Thanks frosch123. I was just looking into options on how much you can modify the server without needing a custom client.
15:33:33  <supermop__> haha not yet
15:33:46  <supermop__> she is taking a different job
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15:54:05  <Alberth> o/
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15:54:34  <supermop__> yo Alberth
15:54:47  <ElleKitty> *waves waves*
15:56:21  <frosch123>
15:56:51  <frosch123> with the default catenary it is almost invisible :p
15:58:19  <supermop__> frosch123: often i have trouble seeing trolly wire over roads in real life!
15:58:44  <Alberth> as long as you don't touch them, it's fine :)
15:59:20  <supermop__> because trolley wire is not catenary - it doesn't have the extra catenary support wire - its just a thin wire with minimal support, so it often blends into the background
16:00:01  <supermop__> i guess most neighbors would complain if there was a huge mess of wires right outside their window
16:01:05  <frosch123> aren't overground wires quite common in us towns?
16:01:09  <supermop__>
16:01:15  <supermop__> can't even see them
16:01:51  <supermop__> frosch123: they were more common until the 1950s. NYC used underground power
16:02:19  <supermop__> none of the surviving or new US tramways have underground electric power
16:02:36  <supermop__> SF has one line that uses underground cable haulage
16:02:48  <frosch123> hmm, how does that work?
16:02:58  <frosch123> how does the engine get to the power?
16:03:23  <supermop__> in SF the 'cable car' has a gripper that grabs onto a continuously moving loop of cable
16:03:51  <supermop__> grip on to move forward, let go to slow down - better for very steep hills
16:04:50  <Sharkman_> would this work as a spritesheet
16:04:57  <supermop__> frosch123: underground electric, the tram has a blade that sticks down through a slot into the vault, and contacts a 3rd rail
16:06:30  <frosch123> ah, via a blade
16:07:05  <supermop__>
16:07:37  <supermop__>
16:08:40  <supermop__> the problem is of course the conduit occasionally gets full of trash or dirt
16:10:33  <frosch123> no leaf trees allowed :)
16:11:24  <supermop__> also the part in the conduit is wider than the slot, so if the tram breaks, you must tow it to the next access hatch to get it unstuck
16:13:10  <supermop__>
16:14:05  <supermop__> the square panel next to the tram on the right track is the access hatch
16:14:29  <frosch123> he, "air conditioned" on the front :)
16:15:34  <supermop__> advertising works! in a hot city summer, air conditioned tram sounds nice - many subway trains did not yet have AC at that time
16:16:05  <supermop__> although the photo looks like early march, not august
16:16:34  <frosch123> too little green for august :)
16:17:15  <supermop__> so hopefully the tram also has heat
16:18:08  <supermop__> Sharkman_: yes
16:18:21  <Sharkman_> yay
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16:43:06  <Alberth> o/
16:43:23  <supermop__> frosch123: alternate power methods for tram could be interesting
16:43:57  <supermop__> not much gameplay impact other than frustrating players who choose the method that later becomes obsolete
16:44:50  <supermop__> 120 years ago people didn't know that overhead wire would win, but any player would know not to chose the conduit trams
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16:45:19  <Wolf01> o/
16:45:21  <Alberth> o/
16:46:55  <Wolf01> So "a developer dog is not seen every day" "I'm a wolf" "you seem interesting, we'll might call you after holidays"
16:47:09  <Markk> \o
16:48:24  <supermop__> unless tall, oversized trucks cannot drive under trolley wire, then underground current is better
16:49:18  <Markk> Especially when a kid runs amok and touches the underground current.
16:49:20  <Wolf01> Underground road type, you provide only overlay with terrain tiles... I don't know how it will work on intersections
16:49:25  <Markk> Flying kid!
16:49:44  <Wolf01> Btw, any news?
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16:53:53  <supermop__> Wolf01: the idea is for trams that get their power from a slot in the pavement - was popular in the earlier 20th century
16:58:05  <Alkel_U3> well, modern variation on that is apparently emerging
16:58:07  <Alkel_U3>
16:59:32  <supermop__> the frnch system is cool
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17:19:31  <_dp_> hi, is there any grf for toyland industries, preferably ground aware?
17:19:42  <_dp_> like opengfx+ industries but for toyland
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17:24:08  <Alberth> I am not aware of such a newgrf
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17:27:22  <V453000> I think YETI does reuse ground tiles _dp_ :P
17:31:56  <V453000> but in general newgrf authors are assholes towards toyland
17:32:00  <V453000> discrimination and stuff
17:32:17  <_dp_> yeah, YETI is my backup plan)
17:32:40  <_dp_> rly don't want a 200Mb download in one-time event though
17:33:14  <V453000> everybody should already have it downloaded Obviously! :D
17:33:17  <V453000> yeah I understand your point
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17:33:46  <V453000> what's wrong with default toyland industries though? :)
17:34:33  <Alberth> they're in the wrong climate :p
17:34:50  <_dp_> exactly)
17:35:14  <V453000> oh you want to move toyland industries to another climate
17:35:35  <V453000> btw are you aware that you can use japanese landscape in toyland?
17:35:36  <_dp_> I thought it's easier to move toyland indusries to arctic than arctic landscape to toyland)
17:37:43  <_dp_> Yeah, I considered japanese landscape but I like alpine one more
17:38:00  <_dp_> Also would be nice to have toyland industries as grf coz they r awesome)
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17:43:23  <V453000> yez
17:47:26  <frosch123> Wolf01: <- i've added the catenary continuation check
17:48:04  <frosch123> Wolf01: so, they explored your github résumé?
17:48:34  <Wolf01> Nah
17:49:00  <Wolf01> I only said I like to give you headaches with patches
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17:53:53  <frosch123> _dp_: i guess easiest option with existing grf is to play in toyland, and add something like "ghat landscape"
17:54:54  <frosch123> or japan set landscape
17:55:40  <frosch123> hmm, oh, recent japan landscape does not work in toyland
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17:57:13  <_dp_> frosch123, I want snow! :p
17:57:30  <frosch123> oh, right
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17:57:43  <frosch123> yeah, then a new newgrf which enables toyland indutries in arctic
17:57:51  <_dp_> if it was only for removing crazy checkboard there is always temperate replacement grf
17:58:05  <frosch123> not sure whether houses would automatically accept sweets and fizzy drinks
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18:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> if they replace mail/food/goods?
18:01:34  <frosch123> mail is mail
18:01:40  <frosch123> sweets is supposed to be food
18:01:46  <frosch123> fizzy drinks is supposed to be goods
18:02:28  <_dp_> And I'm using swedish houses...
18:02:40  <_dp_> Well, was thinking of adding some houses anyway
18:02:51  <Wolf01> Strange, I always supposed they were a byproduct of refinery
18:03:11  <Wolf01> Aren't toys the goods?
18:04:38  <frosch123> toys go to toyshop
18:04:54  <frosch123> the house acceptance is the tricky part
18:05:25  <Wolf01> We need a more modular system
18:05:45  <_dp_> drinks have same id as arctic food
18:06:15  <_dp_> and candy is goods
18:06:26  <frosch123> oh, so the other way around
18:07:59  <_dp_> what happens if I use GOOD and SWET in my grf? will it be the same cargo or different ones?
18:09:18  <frosch123> in a newgrf you have to decide which to use
18:09:28  <frosch123> the duplicate ids only affect default stuff
18:13:42  <_dp_> What's pnml file extension for?
18:14:03  <Alberth> partial nml file
18:14:25  <Alberth> ie the C preprocessor merges them into an nml file
18:14:46  <_dp_> how it it different from full one? just odesn't have grf block?
18:15:08  <Alberth> the #include, and #define  macros get expanded by the C preprocessor
18:16:57  <_dp_> oh, so it doesn't expand macros in regular nml?
18:17:14  <Alberth>
18:17:27  <Alberth> regular nml has templates
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18:18:18  <Alberth> and yes, it would be nice if nml had more macro capabilities
18:19:43  <_dp_> so, pnml is not a nmlc format but something that build system in particular grfs introduce?
18:23:29  <frosch123> yes
18:23:45  <frosch123> cpp is used to combine multiple pnml files into a single nml file
18:24:10  <_dp_> print(open("toyland_industries.pnml").read())
18:24:17  <frosch123> you can find that nml file usually also on
18:24:18  <_dp_> that will do xD
18:24:18  <frosch123> next to the grf
18:25:15  <_dp_> yeah, I wanted to use include and remebered that I saw it there
18:26:13  <Alberth> andy uses Python to generate nml
18:26:55  <_dp_> me too
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27702 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2016-12-21 19:45:40 +0100 )
18:45:51  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:52  <DorpsGek> russian: 16 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:50:17  <supermop__> so frosch123 are the gui sprites working in nrt now?
18:50:40  <frosch123> i added them and tested them, but the function itself is not available yet
18:50:55  <frosch123> except in some hidden wolf work space
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19:03:25  <andythenorth> o/
19:04:03  <andythenorth> regular nml ought to have macros, or at least includes
19:04:07  <andythenorth> but eh
19:04:22  <andythenorth> doing the cpp style includes is probably a trivial patch
19:04:47  <Wolf01> <frosch123> except in some hidden wolf work space <-
19:04:51  <andythenorth> nml already seems to know about them, or at least it knows which included file to blame when a compile fails
19:05:01  <andythenorth> it finds correct line number, unless it’s make doing that
19:05:01  <Wolf01> Misses the last 3 commits
19:05:46  <Wolf01> I'm too lazy to connect the external dvd player to get the original graphics from cd
19:06:08  <Wolf01> So I'm doing with opengfx which doesn't have the icons :P
19:06:59  <supermop__> Wolf01: i drew ogfx icons
19:08:13  <Wolf01> But they aren't on the repo yet
19:08:18  <frosch123> yes, but we did not add them to ogfx :)
19:08:28  <frosch123> it's already enough to have forks for ottd and nml
19:08:37  <frosch123> ogfx can wait for trunkification
19:09:10  <Wolf01> Dinner
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19:12:36  <andythenorth> ogfx can wait :D
19:12:46  <andythenorth> or other people can join the party
19:13:09  <supermop__> ;_:
19:23:14  <frosch123> well, after trunkification and release we will have to close flyspray and infio@ for 2 months :p
19:23:39  <frosch123> zbase noobs very already super annoying last time
19:26:26  <andythenorth> closing flyspray is “probably fine”
19:26:38  <andythenorth> I am surprised anyone answers info@ :o
19:26:45  <andythenorth> but andythenorth doesn’t do email anyway
19:29:11  <frosch123> info@ is 50% legit spam, 25% real spam, 15% questions that did not find the forums,  5% opensource stuff, 5% other stuff
19:31:20  <Rubidium> don't forget to fork grfcodec ;)
19:31:49  <andythenorth> that is definitely at the top of the to-do list
19:32:15  <andythenorth> Rubidium: it works fine with NotRoadTypes
19:32:18  <andythenorth> you just have to use -d
19:34:02  <Rubidium> or rather the "must-not-use-white-spaces-while-developing" tool that is also in the grfcodec repository
19:35:13  <andythenorth> $someone told me to not bother using that anymore :)
19:38:56  <frosch123> hmm, i guess implementing RoadVehicle::GetMaxTrackSpeed is not enough
19:39:13  <frosch123> probably needs some cache invalidation in various places
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20:31:59  <frosch123> which unit to use for roadtype speed limitsß
20:32:18  <frosch123> same as for road vehicles? or same as for railtypes?
20:34:03  <Rubidium> obviously
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20:39:08  <Rubidium> though to be honest, I'd use the roadtype one so everything roadtypey uses the same units
20:40:04  <frosch123> that read like a tautology :)
20:43:16  <Rubidium> but what's the pre for railtype units? It has a higher range that can't be used and lower granularity
20:43:42  <frosch123> railtypes use the same unit as trains
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20:44:17  <frosch123> readvehicle seem to use the train unit at least for airdrag, though likely noone very cared about that
20:44:44  <frosch123> i guess i'll use the roadvehicle unit
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20:48:48  <frosch123> Wolf01: what is the status of covert road?
20:49:08  <Wolf01> Same as the patch I shown you
20:49:10  <frosch123> the last two items on my todo list depend on it
20:49:32  <Wolf01> It works but needs more checks for pre-conversion
20:49:48  <frosch123> ok, i might pull it then
21:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: roadvehicle unit seems like the obvious choice
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21:27:11  * andythenorth must FIRS eh
21:27:34  <andythenorth> unless frosch123 is there any NRT I can usefully do?
21:28:10  <frosch123> when can we play a testgame? :)
21:28:27  <andythenorth> we’d need a server :)
21:28:33  <Wolf01> I already do, and always forget that I can't move everything with haul :P
21:28:52  <andythenorth> also, the non-electric tram tracks have catenary
21:29:14  <frosch123> questions for the testgame would be: bugs? split road vehicle list for road and tram?
21:29:15  <Wolf01> Your fault, mine are right :P
21:29:22  <andythenorth> as they don’t provide any action 2/3 stuff
21:29:42  <frosch123> my non-electric trams have no catenary
21:29:47  <frosch123> that is just an a0 flag
21:30:04  <andythenorth> :o
21:30:09  <andythenorth> when was that implemented? :P
21:30:20  <Wolf01> Some time ago yesterday
21:30:22  <andythenorth> I swear when I added NRT to Road Hog it didn’t work
21:30:25  <frosch123> actually the default got changed again, now both road and tram do not have catenary by default
21:30:27  <andythenorth> it was on my todo list
21:30:49  <frosch123> i did not play with roadhog yet
21:30:54  <andythenorth> if we wanted to play a test game currently, it had better feature forests a lot :P
21:31:06  <andythenorth> there are no other HAUL vehicles
21:31:31  <andythenorth> and I need a non-electric tram depot
21:31:40  <frosch123> also already added
21:31:59  <frosch123> <- those are the default depots now
21:32:07  <andythenorth> ha awesome
21:32:15  * andythenorth pulls
21:32:29  <frosch123> only works with original graphics
21:32:32  <andythenorth> I thought this would all have to be fixed in newgrf :)
21:32:39  <andythenorth> my todo list is much shorter
21:32:40  <frosch123> ogfx will draw tram track for elroad
21:33:08  <Wolf01> :O we have tramway icon
21:33:27  <frosch123> openttd.grf is complete :)
21:33:44  <frosch123> i think the tramway icon is by andy from a month ago
21:33:48  <andythenorth> this will be forum-able soon
21:34:02  <andythenorth> day after christmas maybe? o_O
21:34:30  <Wolf01> 1/1/2017?
21:34:31  <frosch123> when road conversion is done
21:34:38  <frosch123> the last items are: split vehicle lists?
21:34:41  <frosch123> and ai/gs api
21:34:47  <frosch123> no idea about the latter :)
21:35:13  <andythenorth> vehicle lists are not urgent imho
21:35:16  <frosch123> i won't be here 12-26 till 01-xx :)
21:35:35  <andythenorth> right :)
21:35:37  <Wolf01> For compatibility (has power on stuff), do you want to check only same roadtype or both?
21:35:39  <frosch123> the urgent stuff should be done by tomorrow evening
21:36:05  <andythenorth> ai/gs can wait too imho
21:36:18  <andythenorth> it’s a few months until April 1, eh?
21:37:21  <andythenorth> so adjoining roadbits for non-compatible types
21:37:27  <andythenorth> that still need arguing out properly?
21:37:39  <frosch123> production varies a lot between months :)
21:38:14  <frosch123> adjoining can be done after convert road is done
21:38:23  <frosch123> rail does the same
21:38:28  <andythenorth> I’m not sure what the right solution is
21:38:36  <andythenorth> they have to adjoin, no?
21:38:37  <frosch123> the rail solution should work
21:38:45  <frosch123> adding roadbits upgrades to the better roadtype
21:38:52  <frosch123> or fails if there is no better ytype
21:39:25  <andythenorth> sounds like you have a plan
21:40:03  <frosch123> <- that's the plan :p
21:40:52  <andythenorth> :)
21:41:45  * andythenorth should do more HAUL vehicles
21:42:08  <andythenorth> it bugs me that I can’t implement cross-compatible vehicles
21:42:16  <andythenorth> wonder if I was doing it wrong
21:43:31  <andythenorth> I tried defining UNIV instead of HAUL, with ROAD powering UNIV, and UNIV powering HAUL, and omitting HAUL
21:43:57  <andythenorth> so HAUL -> powered on UNIV
21:44:05  <andythenorth> UNIV -> powered on UNIV and ROAD
21:44:10  <andythenorth> ROAD -> powered on ROAD
21:44:21  <andythenorth> and no type defined for HAUL
21:44:26  <andythenorth> didn’t seem to work
21:48:45  <frosch123> you kind of can
21:49:14  <frosch123> <- i posted that earlier
21:49:33  <frosch123> only thing that is missing is a flag or similar to hide a roadtype from the build menu
21:52:42  <frosch123> though ideally the vehicle-only types should not occupy one of the 15 subtypes that can be build on map
21:53:35  <frosch123> by guess would be that the vehicle-only types are also not passed to any commands, so they can use higher subtype numbers and are not affected by the 15 limit
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23:26:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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